Most people who are musicians don’t become the Wangs and Langs of the classical world but they can become successful musicians on their own right and have their own well deserved space such as recitalists or professors etc. I don’t understand why the ideal is always to be a concert pianist ( and the best ones) if only a minority can achieve that. Music is life. Humanity needs music. It’s not just something to become a celebrity. I wished I understood that from the beginning
Quite so. I have a a very rewarding career as a musicologist, performing and conducting here and there as the opportunity arose, and I didn't have to give up the sports I love.
I began the violin at 12. At 17, with no great amount of practice I went to study at the Royal Academy of Music, London. After four years with not so much intense regular practice I joined a series of professional orchestras initially as a 1st violin but then as a sub/co/ principal. The lack of really thorough practice though played havoc with my bowing technique. Tensions built until after ten years I decided to leave and rework my technique. I did this so thoroughly that I have never had any technical problems since. In short, I relearned to play the violin in my 30s. I filled in the past. I corrected it and filled it deep into my past self. Whatever the received wisdom is, it can be done!
what you describe is a near life long journey so it’s rather misleading to say you learned to play in your 30s.. if anything your story is great example of how much time and dedication it takes to reach any level of mastery.. if one can ever reach it ..
I hope you don't mean this as a counter example for his assertion that you need to start young to succeed as a world class musician. You literally started young and had enormous success. Making adjustments to reduce tension can't honestly be called "starting over", regardless of how frustrating it felt at the time.
Mr. Graffman, do you remember being with the Community Concert Series back in the '50's? You performed in Auburn, California, and you were gracious enough to allow me (a high school student) to attend your practice session the day of the concert. I have never forgotten your kindness, and it was part of the reason I chose music as a career. I never even came close to achieving your ability, but I had a very enjoyable and meaningful career.
Grödingen & Languages it was more a hobby that turned into an obsession. The more I played, the better I got. The better I got, the more I loved to play. I taught myself, mostly, and eventually studied with José Tomás in Alicante, Spain. When you play eight or nine hours a day, for years, you’re bound to get better. I’m kind of an accidental guitarist, in that, I didn’t plan on being a professional, I eventually got asked to teach people, got asked to perform places, then I got an agent. When I first started, I was supposed to be studying mathematics and computer science at Glasgow University, but I spend a lot of the time playing guitar. It just grew into a lot more, and when I started earning decent money, that made me realise I could make career out of it. “The longest journey starts with a single step” might be a corny nugget of wisdom, but it’s got a kernel of truth about it.
Even Yuja Wang confessed that she remembers best what she learned before she was 18 years old. Let's face it : Yuja Wang is an exception. Genius, and Beautiful.
@@gertebert Ik bewonder haar om haar piano spel. Ik kan heel goed zonder de pathetische mannen, die hun armen van grote hoogte lieten neerdalen, om het interessant te maken. gaaaaap horrorwiets
I think that is a simple biological fact. It also goes for music you just passively listen to. I work as a stage manager and I get to hear a work for about 20 to 30 times until a run is over, including all rehearsals with runthroughs. Yet I remember nothing of the music after half a year. For example we did "La Cenerentola" and I could not hum you a single tune. However everything I heard before I was 18 is engraved into my memory. I could probably sing you the complete Ring from Memory for example, most definately the first act of Tristan, or the complete Magic Flute, huge chunks of Aida.
Lovely interview, wonderful pianist, fine man. His reminiscent glimpses of Horowitz and Serkin are precious. I admired his LPs - Beet3, Tchaik 1 & 2, Prokofiev...as a young teenager, then heard him in concert (2 recitals, 2 concertos; Tch2, Beet5), when he toured Australia. I eavesdropped in on his rehearsals, and taking a break, he chatted warmly, humorously and enthusiastically with this young intruder(!), offering to get me a best seat for the concerts if i wished. Thank you for this heartwarming video.
I remember with great pleasure hearing Arthur Rubenstein play with the Boston Symphany many times. What was remarkable was the great warmth and affection he expressed for the music and the tremendous rapport
....he had with the audience. I do not feel the affection and love for the music coming across from many of the young pianists I hear today. Yes, they are great technicians but that is all. BTY, I heard Rubenstein actually play a wrong note at one of his Boston Symphony concerts! Of course you don't hear any wrong notes in recordings. This almost robot like feeling I'm afraid might be seeping into too many of the piano performances I hear today.
Peter, Zsolt, each episode more engaging than the last. Your engagements always uncover surprising insights. Interviewing is a nuanced skill and you have it in spades!
VERY interesting and informative! My sister won a full tuition scholarship to the Eastman School of Music on harp. She was the harp faculty at the University of Denver, first call union harpist, and played with the Denver Symphony. Her husband earned a master's and doctorate at Northwestern University on cello. He recently retired from the Denver Symphony after 34 years and 25 years (summers) in the Colorado Central City Opera Orchestra. There were some playing issues that he had to deal and cope with during his career. My sister hasn't had any problems yet. They both are 70 and still practice religiously every evening for a minimum of an hour. They still do some public performances and my sister still has an active teaching studio. I'm 72 and had s successful clarinet/sax studio for forty years. I have some infrequent symptoms with numbness in my 4th and 5th fingers of my left hand. Fortunately, I have no playing responsibilities other than working with my students.
It seems many people are taking issue with Graffman saying you need to start learning an classical instrument (piano in his case, but you can extend this to violin, cello etc.) early in ones childhood. The overwhelming majority of great soloists prove that his is absolutely spot on. Sure, you can learn anything at any age (humans are absolutely build for learning until the moment of death). But in terms of being an great performer, Graffmenn is 100% correct. So all those complaining about Graffman displaying... agism, just get over yourselves. His comments have nothing to do with learning an instrument (or any other craft), becoming good, or even very good at it, an enjoying it, or even others enjoying your performances. Graffman specifically talks about the Wangs, Langs, Buniathishvillis, Hillary Hans etc of this world, as well as the past masters, almost anyone you care to name - who are household names as soloists of classical music. Conducting an orchestra is probably an exception there, but even with that, great conductors have started learning an instrument, and therefore have been exposed to classical music, very early in their life. Plus orchestra conducting is not comparable to being an instrument soloist.
Right on. Some people only understand participation trophies. It is possible to do and learn anything but if you plan on being the best classical instrumentalist there's only a comparitive handful in the world.
My mom was a pianist and I came out the womb looking for a piano. Jokingly I say this but my mom said I would crawl to the piano to sit next to my mom as she practice. By three I was reading basic music. This comment is spot on. I practiced six hours a day weekdays. Two hours in the morning before school and five hours after homework was completed. And ten to twelve hours on weekends. As an. adult, this kind of practice schedule is almost impossible. Unless you work for yourself. The hours required to be a concert level pianist. I had the bulk of my repertoire pieces learned by 16. As a kid in a conservatory this was the norm. Some kids had theres done by 12. Starting out late requires one to play a lot of catch up. As a kid I did not have much ear training. As kid, learning Solfege would have been a breeze. As an adult it was very difficult to learn. And most late teen/young adults find it difficult to learn though its very possible. Parents, put your kids in music classes early. The sacrifice will be worth it. They absorb like sponges and if it's there calling to play an instrument they will love it. You won't know if you don't try.
There are two opinions about succes in classical music - the more popular one and the one that's spoke about in this video is that you need to start at the age of max. 5, you need a perfect teacher and have to practice 8+ hours a day and that might not even be enough. Then you go on a competition and play everywhere, all the time and your life is just piano. Then there's another one - it doesen't matter when you start, teacher is recommended, but you can find everything on the internet and in books. If you enjoy yourself and get good, you can get little gigs, that can lead to being recognized and having some nice concerts, without being overwhelmed.
I agree with you, but a teacher is really a must to get past a certain level. You don't have fo to see the teacher every week, just go when you're stuck, but it's very helpful in the beginning
Hearing him say its too late for me saddens me so much. I used to play the piano for a few years when I was a kid (around 7 or 8 so not early enough that it would’ve greatly affected my musical development) but I was forced to and didnt enjoy it at all, ergo didnt really practice and as soon as my teacher stopped teaching I was finally freed from that annoyance called piano. But just recently the passion and desire to play the piano were ignited in my 19 year old heart and I want to become good. Good enough for people to notice me. Good enough for my music to touch people. Hearing it’s too late for me to make people feel the music how I feel it is just breaking my heart.
@Jörmungandr I was being obscure (lazy.). To make a broad generalization, the classical world places heavy emphasis on performing works written by dead people, with an almost obsessive concern for virtuosity. It's a sport, like the olympics. But composition is what brought it all about, and doesn't require supreme technical ability. It's an infinity to explore. At the same time, getting people to notice you might not be a satisfying goal, ultimately. Not as satisfying as finding a kind of work that you enjoy and that consumes all of you. And now I've said too much. Sorry.
I think he saying if you want to play at the level of Yuga Wang or Lang Lang you must start young. For everyone else, you can jump in at any age and become a lovely talented pianist. No reason to be heart broken. I have taught students who started as adults and play quite well. Play for the love and joy music brings.
I was so lucky!!! I managed to go to the concert celebrating his 90th birthday with his assistant also teaching me some piano. AND I even got to meet, shake hands, talk, AND have a selfie with him (Mr. G Graffman).
vinyltap Don’t allow that garbage waft into your brain. He is brilliant. Time is an illusion, as is race (religion?) ... all human constructs to categorize “others” (race - to determine human worth if you’re racist).
@@Brainhoneywalker religion is most certainly an illusion ! A human invention morphed into an affliction. Bears no resemblance to morality or ethics. In the wrong hands, a killer.
I was lucky enough to hear Mr Graffman perform the first Brahms piano concerto and later to sign my Brahms score. This was around 1977. I remember talking to him about the detailed interpretation of a certain passage near the beginning. I mention this only because he said that that was around the time he started noticing a problem with his right hand.
I started at 14. One cannot rule out exceptions; I’m at an enormous disadvantage but I know it’s possible. It feels natural to me as it would for any of these people starting at five and three. Learning the Chopin G minor ballade (to a genuinely, competitively high standard), i have won competitions, and will be auditioning for conservatoires at the end of this year. Additionally, keyboardist in a rock band and solo jazz/blues pianist. I’m 17; not trying to suck myself off, but too late is a very strong thing to say.
@@LivingtheClassicalLife by the way, Volodos started at 14 as well. And if I recall correctly, Lucas Debarque, which won a Chopin Competition started out pretty late as well. But nonetheless, starting at 5-7 years old would be ideally the best.
pianosenzanima yeah fair point. That’s good encouragement, it’s a very weird position to be in! Technically a good amount of rep out there is within my reach but at the same time there are so many composers and so much music that I need to spend a lot of time catching up in a sense. There was a time when I unironically said Mozart is too mainstream I think Liszt is great, when in reality both composers were masters and are revered pretty universally hahahaha.
I started playing piano at 16, and even though I wouldn't call myself a first rate talent, I managed to graduate from a conservatory with the highest grade. I know I won't be a world renowned concert pianist (and I dont want to) but this at least shows that it is possible to reach a pretty high level even if you start late. Not trying to suck myself off either, just wanting to be encouraging.
pima it is, I think it’s a new thing that’s going to become more common as we go on. I don’t know about you but I personally started with synthesia learning stuff I liked, decided on lessons, and always picked the rep I did and only took suggestions from my teacher as well as putting in the necessary time of course! So I think the internet is a huge part of it and hopefully classical and the competitiveness of the field will improve with people saying we’re not all in Carnegie hall at 10
You can start late as long as you are really committed and feeling the music and practice daily with understanding what you are playing .Never be a little robot of the notes but feel them with all your soul .
Zsolt thanks so much for a fabulous interview. I know nothing about music but your questions helped shine a light for us regular folk. Lol. Best wishes.
A jewel of an interview! He looks great and at91 is incredibly sharp. I recall hearing about his injury in Amherst Ma. while attending the Dorothy Taubman seminar. Her technique was aimed toward preventing just such hand injuries in musicians. Playing octaves with fingers 1 & 4 much less 3 was strictly forbidden, even with black keys. Later I heard Mr. Graffman speak in Monterey California. He was promoting his book ‘I Really Should Be Practicing,’ and signed my copy.
I took horn to a reasonably comfortable professional level and had some fine successes with good orchestras - Siegfried's Rhine Journey, Schumann Konzerstuck, all the Beethovens/Brahms/ some Mahler, etc. But I had some serious technical problems that I never confronted that occasionally caused a disaster here and there. I quit cold turkey when I was 50 because of other concerns. But I missed it so much, I took up the instrument again at age 67 - took on those problems that plagued me - and overcame them. I don't have the stamina I had 20 years ago but my technique finally took off. My lips are getting thin and I don't think I'll be winning auditions any time soon - besides there are too many outstanding young players in line! But I have no doubt it can be done. It's a different beast than the piano - there are no 91 year old horn players still muscling through Bruckner symphonies. But love for the instrument never dies. It's a joy just to keep it up!
@Dungeon Keeper I feel the same, I believe that with enough work, dedication and passion (which I have, classical music is my biggest passion) then anything can be achieved. I just finished composing my first piece, it's not really a piece but rather me experimenting and trying to understand how to compose (but I think that's standard for most first pieces). Ive also begun piano lessons and continue to work at the piano most of the day. I'm currently working on Beethoven's Sonata No. 7 (2nd movement), Chopin's Nocturne Op. 15 No. 3 (I am nowhere near qualified to play this but I try anyway because I love Chopin) and Tchaikovsky's 'October' from The Seasons Op. 37a.
Same for me. Been playing for 3 years, almost 4, and I'm nowhere near the level I want to get at, so it was very heartbreaking to hear his thought about it. But I hope we do suceed, both you and me, and prove him wrong ! Good luck !
One of the finest pianists of his generation. First introduced me to the Tchaikovsky 2nd and 3rd piano concertos in the sixties. Fantastic technique, sadly undermined by muscular problems.
For the medical and musical record, the condition - focal diatonia is neurological, which means that it starts in the brain and affects the nerve signals to the body ( muscles ). A prominent working and respected hypothesis includes over practicing causing a disproportionately enlarged sensory motor unit map which miscommunicates with the muscles of the body, causing involuntary contractions, spasms, tightness and loss of coordination, particularly for writers, musicians, and some athletes. In golfers, the condition is colloquially called the “ yips “. I’ve worked with some athletes and musicians who have suffered greatly with the condition including the late great Leon Fleisher; may G*d rest his gifted soul. ✨🙏✨
Conversation I actually had: Him: No artist can ever become great unless they start very young. After age 13, there's no hope. Me: Van Gogh was 29 when he did his first oil painting. He did informal doodles and drawings, didn't even get lessons, until he was 27. Him: Yeah, Van Gogh was good. But he's no Rembrandt! Meaning: if you start piano at age 17, maybe you won't be a Mozart. But if you have love and passion and sacrifice for your art, you can make a living at it, provide joy and beauty to thousands of people, and live a life in love with a transcendent pursuit. Sounds GREAT to me!
@@CobraBoss23 There you go! It's never too late to start doing something that you have love and passion for. It's always too late when you start something that is boring or that you don't care about.
That's precisely it. If you're 24 and want to learn an instrument, go for it. With enough dedication you can become quite good. But you will never become one of the all-time greats. It's the same in other areas. All great chess players for example started playing as children, many were prodigies. That doesn't mean you can't achieve a decent level if you start as an adult. I think it's important to manage your expectations in these matters, otherwise you're in for a big disappointment.
My mother was an honors graduate from Northwestern University Chicago in choral conducting and piano in the late 30's. She tells of one of her juries after which the three professors actually applauded, something which was never done then and is pretty much the same today. I had two sisters and me. We all took piano lessons (we had no input as to our opinion). She was too intelligent to teach us and researched the available qualified teachers. My oldest sister won a full tuition scholarship on harp to the Eastman School of Music in Rochester, NY. Everyone was required to audition on piano as a basic evaluation of skill. She sighted so well that she qualified to study with an actual piano professor. She was the harp faculty at the University of Colorado-Denver, first call union harpist and played with the Colorado-Denver Symphony Orchestra. My final accomplishment culminated at the end of my junior year with my learning the first movement of the Grieg Piano Concerto after which I "retired". My real passion was clarinet and I was solo chair (out of 18) in my senior year. We did a pro band arrangement of Rhapsody in Blue which included having to master the infamous "smear" as it was called in the mid-60's. My band director thought I spent hours, but I basically had it under control in about 20 minutes and just needed to drill for reliability. We did a local state band tour and got to perform it 4-5 times. Later on I was asked to do it with our local adult community band. The curse was that my son was in 7th grade and wanted to try it. Foolishly I taught him how to do it and we were assaulted with the incessant "whine" for most of that year with it "piercing" our ears. I sang with the Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra Chorus for thirty years including three different sold-out concerts in Carnegie Hall. We were asked to augment the Chicago Symphony Orchestra Chorus for two different summer season opening concerts in Ravina, the Northshore of Chicago outdoor 100+ year sculpture garden concert venue seating 4,000 in the covered amphitheater and another 10,000 on the manicured lawns. James Levine, the conductor of the Metropolitan Opera at the time brought eight Opera stars with him. That's my little tale of
People, especially well known musical artists, have a way of seeing the world through their eyes only - he started piano at 3 and was at Curtis at 7. I understand what he is trying to get across and I also understand why it is ruffling feathers. I agree with what he is saying in part but always remember all great artists live in the bubble that they grew up in, succeeded in and spent their lives in. That is not to say it is the same for all. Great artists and teachers always have a way of making you believe what they say is the gospel… think about it… that’s their job and they’re good at it ! ;) There is some truth in it and perhaps especially so for pianists, violinists and organists to be the greatest in the world but… there are ALWAYS exceptions! I value and honor those who have persevered and followed their callings at whatever age they heard them!
There's a lot to it. I'm not keen on contests. They can be limiting, What matters is how people respond where you are playing, not how they respond to someone who is playing somewhere else.
That was such an interesting interview into Garry,,could have listened to much more, forever grateful he put Lang Lang into my life, with his exceptional ability, to this day both of them are my no. 1, thankyou Garry xxxx Australia
Django Reinhardt was definitely awesome, a true legend. But for the record, he was able to play with more than two fingers. It's the other way around: he was _unable_ to play with two fingers, his ring finger and pinky, after being very badly burned in an accident.
So true. I started too late, 14. I could see that I was never going to be as good as what I could appreciate. So I focussed on mathematics, etc. and found it wasn't too late for that.
Interesting interview. I watched it because Yuja Wang and Tiffany Poon are my two favorite pianists of the young generation, and I wanted to hear more about what he has to say about competitions... and Yuja. But I didn't know about Mr. Graffman's injury. My dad had exactly the same problem and it cut his career as concert performer short (that was in the 1930s). He managed to play again later in life; figured out fingerings for working around his handicap, but never could play at concert level again. He also went to different doctors, the last one in the 1970s, and none could figure out the problem, only that it seemed to be a neuro - muscular injury of some sort, and that there was no treatment.
Please allow me to gush about Yuja Wang's Feb 28, 2020 recital at Carnegie Hall. Spectacular! The heightened anticipation she created by Not following the order of the written program was thrilling! As she announced before stepping on stage; "... I believe every program should have a life of it's own and be a representation of how I feel in the moment - I want to let the music surprise me. Please experience the concert with all your senses and an open mind, and enjoy the ride." Sparkling, long white gown. The gentle and innocent first notes of Galuppi's Sonata No 5 reached out like a small child happily greeting a friend, inviting us to play. (in a twist of expecting the unexpected, that was the first song in the written program!) Followed by Scriabin's Sonata No 5 Op 53, then Ravel's Une barque sur l'ocean sent us riding the waves in ecstasy! Short break, then back out with Mompou's Secreto (which I felt deserved much more applause!), Berg's Piano Sonata, then Bach Tocatta BWV 911. Intermission. Glittering green sequins for the 2nd half of Chopin Mazurkas and Brahms Intermezzos, then Brahms' Romance, and Scriabin's Sonata No 4. (a broken string at the high end?) Encores: Schubert/Liszt Gretchen am Spinnrade D 118, Prokofiev's Tocatta (my God, the driving Thunder!! This was the Ultimate for me!) then finally, Gluck's Melodie from Orfeo ed Euridice. So grateful to have experienced this!! Hoping all Yuja's fans get to experience her extraordinary talent - live, with all your senses, an open mind and an open heart!
I agree. They use their muscles and nerves too much due to long hours of practice and performing. Filipinos say when you use your hands or any parts of your body, rest for awhile then you can take a shower? or wet your hands. I myself when I iron my clothes I do it before I go to sleep. I rest for thirty minutes or so then I go to bed without wetting my body or hands. This is the same when playing the piano. This what happened to Muhammad Ali. We need to take care of our body and not to put too much pressure on it. I wished I stayed playing the piano but my brain led me to something else. I invested my money and time for my son to take piano lessons for years and he started at young age. I was there taking him to lessons and recitals. Now, my piano is lonely because no one is playing the piano. . Today’s date is July 21, 2020, Tuesday from the West Coast California, USA 🇺🇸. I am 🇺🇸🇵🇭.
Favorite pianists of the young generation - completely agree with you! They are so distinctively different in interpretation and styles but love love them both.
Idk why people are so salty about his comment that you need to start early to be world class. It's like if an Olympic athlete said you need to start training early to be world class, it's simply how the human brain and body works
Mr. Graffman and all of Wuja's teachers, you are all performers of the Buddha's third miracle. The Buddha explained the three types of miracle to his followers. First is the miracle of psychic power, walking on water, levitation etc. NOT IMPORTANT, a waste of time. Second is the miracle of foretelling the future. Also not important! Third is the miracle of teaching. Very important, because someone you teach may go out and change the world! TAKE A BOW!
This pre-supposes that the only way to be musically "talented" is to be able to play the conventional repertoire as a virtuosic executive (ie "playing") musician in concert halls. But there is composing, arranging, conducting, multi-instrumentalists, jazz (which requires a facility with rhythm and harmony rather than just virtuosity), the ability to improvise, orchestral playing, and a hundred other ways to be accomplished. For every one classical virtuoso there are several thousand perfectly good and well-trained musicians who make the world a better place, but they are often written off as "failures". I recognise that this interview is about a narrow part of the musical world, but sadly it just perpetuates the myth that musicians are of little real value unless they are virtuosi or unless they practice 10 hours a day from the age of six. They are indeed brilliant and wonderful, but nearly all of them have a narrow repertoire of 100-200 year old music which they play over and over again from one concert hall to another. Unfortunately the classical world. The real value in music is, like poetry, art, film and other creative pursuits, the broadening of minds and a civilising element to the benefit of all.
fingerhorn4, Yes, there is truth in what you say. It's an evolution, isn't it, the discovery that there is more to music than repetition. I wouldn't want to decry the achievements of great classical pianists, but Art Tatum tops them all. Andre Previn was one of the best Mozart pianists of his day by virtue of his facility with jazz. Nigel Kennedy is a jack-of-all-trades. Nina Simone turned her mastery of the piano to good use. Variety is the spice of life . . .
Couldn't agree more. Which is why it's an ever-shrinking market...both in sales and tickets. Last time I went to a classical concert at the Milan Conservatorio...90 % of the public was over 60 yo...and after 15 min half of them were asleep !! 😂 It looked like I was in a nursing home rather than a music concert ! Classical scene needs a kick in the ass to bring in younger demographics...like what the Prague Orchestra is doin' by playing movie OST (Imperial March from SW or Hams Zimmer stuff)
Great interview. Thanks for sharing. Regarding the focal dystonia, this is becoming an increasing presence in musicians' performance abilities, but covers other fields as well such as the artist for Gilbert cartoons, a friend of mine who was a court reporter and others that have been struck down by this debilitating infliction. It seems to attack persons who do a lot of repetitive actions that all these disciplines cover. So I think it is just overdoing it in some cases and the muscles just give out and nerve damage is the result plus the victim cannot resume normal function (performing at previous level as before) in most cases. I speak from experience as a woodwind player. This condition attacked me in my late 30s and haven't been able to play very well after that. Showed up in a practice session and in a week most muscle memory with embouchure was gone. So, to musicians I cross frequently I suggest they not overdo it or this can be very debilitating.
Graffman is part of that long lineage from the great Romantic composers and now Yuja Wang is carrying on that tradition. So many of the newest pianists seem to think that speed is the goal and the result is a mishmash of sound. I was raised on the grand, romantic style - Van Cliburn, Graffman, Horowitz, Bolet, Hough
@smb12321 gixelx put an emoji, or picture, of a goat 🐐 after "Cliburn is" to indicate he thinks Cliburn is the GOAT: Greatest Of All Time, in his opinion. 😀
My heart goes out to both Gary and Zsolt regarding their inability to play. I am a retired doctor (surgeon) who could play concertos, even though I never became a musician. I never attained the technique of Graffman, so I never played the huge concertos he played. I can still play but obviously not at their level. I think that (ultimately) focal dystonia is an overuse syndrome. I believe Gary is correct when he mentioned that he might have stretched some structures in his hand, in particular the inter-osseous inter carpal ligaments. Eventually, they became stretched- out and could no longer function properly. Once they get stretched, there is an essential imbalance in structure and anatomy that occurs. I think that this is the crux of dystonia. There is a natural tendency...after some damage has been done...to "use" other anatomy to "make up" for the primary damage. So the cycle of damage continues and extends to other, neighboring anatomy. How can it be avoided? I think the answer is in front of us. NO MORE Prokoffiev concertos, say than once/year. NO BARTOK at all. No weird arrangements of Stravinsky for piano solo. No pounding. No multiple octaves at thrice tempo. No piece with only arpeggios (Liszt). I have written warnings on line for a number of young artists. I think that I actually got through to Yeol Eum Son, even though she never responded publicly to me. She was playing huge works and she is physically small....but that is NOT the overriding factor. I ASKED HER TO START PLAYING MORE MOZART AND EARLY BEETHOVEN. Now, I see she is doing exactly that. I know there is an enormous thirst for the Brahms' concertos (which I used to be able to play) and Rach 3 (which I never could). But there has to be a LIMIT on those also. Helene' Grimaud never did Rach 3, but does both Brahms's instead. Rubinstein never did Rach 3. But he did a lot of Chopin. But I think he was in control of them and alternated fingering scientifically....even if he was not aware of that. Also, his tempi were reasonable and he never pounded. Ever. There are some fingering "tricks" in the First Chopin Scherzo that avoid stretching. That's what I do. We have to remember that a classical piano career is absolutely NOT normal. No human's anatomy can or was built to withstand the trauma of routinely performed gigantic, thumping and stretching works. None. There is an exquisite balance...that once offended...can never be retracted. Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
Very insightful- thanks- would assume the Taubman method (a very safe way of using the hands) would be difficult to apply to the pieces you mentioned. What a great idea- include sort of a black box warning for certain pieces
@@AL-pu7ux Thank you Anthony. The enormous competition among young artists to establish their careers compels them to perform terrifying, damaging works for the "thunder power." I get that. I became a surgeon. The competition in medicine is NOTHING like the competition among pianists. By comparison...there is no comparison. I established my surgery practice and retired at a young age. This would be impossible in classical piano. I think I was a fine surgeon. But I could not do Rach 3, and unless you can...you cannot establish a career....although there are exceptions, like Helene' Grimaud, who studiously avoids it. Yuja has a wonderful career. I don't know if she still does the Prokofiev concertos. I hope not. What never ceases to amaze me is HOW many wonderful artists there are! It is a stupendous achievement. I was not a neurosurgeon, but I suggest that getting to the level of Rach 3 is akin to becoming a neurosurgeon! If you believe in God, as I do, you can only assume that the human brain is somehow able to master impossible achievements...and this comes from God. And it is even COMMON! Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
I agree with your points and I would say those concert artists who have not suffered a significant injury due to an unrealistic workload are simply lucky - for now. I think another major issue is that pretty much all piano conservatories teach in a way that there really isn't much care or concern about sustaining our physical apparatus. I personally studied piano under a student of Rudolph Serkin, and the sole focus was the music. It was absolutely invaluable however very little was ever discussed about such issues as I just feel it's not considered that important until it's too late
It’s never too late I’m almost done with learning concert level music and I started four years ago I’m 20 now I don’t like this negative connotation if there is a will there is a way
yeah... the question is: what exactly do you mean by “concert level music”? There are light years between an accomplished artist and a hobby artist. That is not to diminish the latter though - the objectives are light years apart as well...
Capitán Salazar you do realize because someone is not not performing publicly does not mean they are not accomplished musicians. That is just a choice some make, others like me do private competition or paid gigs but mostly interpretation study at this point.
Capitán Salazar and if you don’t know. Concert level music is really just the most technical and rigorous level that classical pieces have to offer. Right now the hardest kinds of pieces are ones such as the guido agosti firebird orchestral reduction. After that haven’t seen anything worse
Vix Villa yes there are likely many non-performing and yet accomplished musicians out there. But I disagree on the term “concert pianist”: concert pianist by definition means a performing musician. it’s not related to the technical complexity of the literature performed.
Capitán Salazar of course I’ve performed but I haven’t gone mainstream because I don’t have the time I am a biology major as well as a piano performance one. You may disagree but at the end of the day only one of us is actually in that world.
16 is too old..... maybe for become a super concert pianist star. I began when I had 13 with synthesia Xd, and I took it seriously when I turned 16. Now that I’m 21 . I just can say, maybe you won’t be able to play with a tremendous virtuosity or learn big hard pieces in just weeks. Your way will be harder than others that began at 6 or ... 3 years old . But with effort and discipline you can achieve many things (obviously with a good teacher that knows how to make you improve according to your abilities) In my experience I’ve could play some bach, Mozart concertos. Schumann and Grieg piano concerto. Some Chopin etudes and a couple of Liszt trascendental etudes. Many sonatas of different classical composers. Some Bach’s suites and tocatta, etc. So, maybe someone with 21 who began at 3 could learn and play rach 3 in a couple of months, that’s something that I can not do and I do not think to learn at the moment lol. Then, do not give up ! Keep studying and improving everyday :D
Many people commenting about the "starting early" answer are not seeing the question and the answer for what they are! The question is how to form and foster a first-rate talent into a well-rounded musician, and the answer is "they SHOULD be started early, that's the most important thing." He's not saying they "must" be started early, nor is he saying this is the only thing, nor is he saying that people who start late can't be first-rate. But ideally, they should start early.
Excelente entrevista. Es admirable el lenguaje tan directo con el que Gary Graffman aborda temas que a veces no nos gusta conocer: el duro entrenamiento físico al que se someten los músicos desde muy temprana edad; y las contingencias que pueden llegar a estropear su carrera. En tiempos recientes como cibernauta, observo que además de dominar la técnica y tener una musicalidad original, las estrellas de la música clásica (directores de orquesta, cantantes, solistas, y si me apuran hasta compositores) deben ser jóvenes, bellos y carismáticos.
I totally agree about starting to learn piano early young, because the kids muscle is still soft and easy to develop. I start playing Piano in 2012, and I have to practice 8 hours a day to make my finger playing faster with effortless. It's been 7 years and everyday I have to flex my hands and fingers all the time or otherwise my playing become stiff. So this is the drawback starting playing Piano as adult.
Don't take that seriously. You can become really good at the piano still. What he means to say is that you will never be the best of the world. But don't let that stop you just enjoy and keep going ;)
He means that its too late to become a concert pianist. Dont worry i also started at 18 (now im 20 now.) im so glad a lot of classical pieces are made for studying purposes at ALL levels so playing piano can be fun even if it will take forever before being to play a piece by Chopin :3
@@ahappyfrenchtoast2669 You should never think like that, play what you want, harder pieces take longer to learn but they are worth the time and effort (I am learning revolurionary etude right now, even though I started not even a year ago)
I'm not a "pianist" by any stretch but I know enough to evaluate what I see and hear a real pianist do, and on that basis I've seen RUclips videos of Yuja Wang playing live and she's scary. What got me was just how staccato she was able to play chords at high volumes. I get it that the point of piano playing isn't the sheer athleticism (although I appreciate that aspect of it) but my thinking was more along the lines of, here's a mechanical instrument that responds exclusively to player input and there's an envelope to the instrument's performance that a player can push and that's what I sensed Wang was doing. Piano actions have evolved the way they have over the centuries because of performers pushing what a piano could do into the realm of what they thought it *ought* to be able to do and who knows, maybe Steinway, Yamaha, etc. will be woodshedding their actions in the years to come because of what the current generation of classical pianists are doing.
His Tchaikovsky #1 with George Szell and his Rachmaninoff #2 with Leonard Bernstein are my favorite versions of all time. The fact he mentored Yuja Wang is so thrilling to me as her versions of these are just as magnificent. Love you, Gary... and you, too, Yuja.
It is important to note that his perspective about starting late is only talking about being a top tier competitor in whatever discipline one wants to dive into. Yes(mechanically speaking) age & talent are a huge factor. But creativity & passion have NO AGE LIMIT. One can pick up an instrument at 50 & create a hit. Success is circumstantial.
I started piano at 14 (almost 15). I received my Bachelors, Masters, and I am a dissertation away from receiving my Doctorate of Musical Arts (DMA) degree all from Manhattan School of Music. My teacher is Nina Svetlanova. Never let anyone tell you your limits. Work your hardest. Figure out how to overcome. Get a great teacher that knows how to solve your technical problems. Be the best version of yourself. Record yourself constantly. Perform constantly. You will grow everyday. Set goals. Reach them. Prove doubters wrong.
I am going to show your reply to my son. I taught him a few piano basics when he was young, (I did my Bachelors at Indiana U ) and he had an immediate, intuitive grasp of sound, technique and note reading. He only played for about a year, abruptly quit, but occasionally over the years would learn something if it caught his ear. At age 12 he started playing again, transcribing classical pieces he listened to, and then started back using music, but insisting on teaching himself. From age 14-15 he took lessons with an excellent teacher and did well in performances and a competition. At that point his teacher felt he played as well as any college auditions he had heard in our state. Now my son is working on his own again...also playing jazz and composing a bit. His knowledge of theory boggles my mind, since he hasn't studied it. Lately he says he knows that he wants a career in music, but feels the pressure of what people might expect, since he just turned 16. He feels he has missed his chance. He often says he doesn't have time to catch up. Thank you for your encouraging story.
Muscles can be coordinated and trained . You don’t need to start early necessarily. One just need to have the right instruction ( which is rare) . One needs to be aware of suppleness of the hands , core activation , seating bones , relaxation of upper back and shoulders , self awareness as far as tension and wrong use of muscles ( e.g chest ) , understand the well coordination among leading fingers , wrist ( which should be flexible at all times) and natural fall of the forearms , One needs to understand musicality and texture . How many people deem to play the piano but merely type the keys, not offering any texture or deep tonality . How many of those are unaware of their natural arm weight ? Musical line has to stand out with different tones and textures , the rest , even if from the same hand , needs to humbly lay low . people have to listen first ! And record themselves playing and see the huge difference between their playing and Cortot’s for example. One must read books like : Chopin , pianist and teacher as seen by his pupils . All this a good teacher can guide and even if you are in your 20’s but desire to put some effort you can accomplish many things .you still can become a great artist .
You missed the point. You can be OK or good if you start later, but to be great you need to be discovered very young so you grow into it. As Gary mentioned, 16 is already too late to optimize your potential, assuming a 6 year old and the 16 year old have the same natural talent. You cannot catch up on those missed 10 years.
@@lvg777 because there is no scientific research about this theme Gary’s opinion on the matter is based on subjectivism and therefore has no validity for research purposes . When somebody is older there is one new variable to consider : other priorities + absence of great masters unwilling to teach adults for fearing they are wasting time. But if somebody is adamant on their decision to play really well and work intelligently their way up there for around 3 hours a day and more during days off , they can accomplish whatever their ambition was. If it was to play Rach 3 musically and technically clean, they can . If it is to accomplish Chopin’s ops 25 with great speed, accuracy , musicality , they can as well. However , we will never know for sure because experiments and again research have not been conducted in this direction. I guess, when you become older, you lose some of the passions you had when youth and gets satisfied with little .
@@mr.p5446 All factors being equal: Same passion and hard work, same natural talent, same standard of education, I'm siding with Gary on this, that the late starter will never reach the same level of greatness. I'm not arguing that late starters can't achieve high levels, but they won't achieve their maximum potential.
David Lucey you can watch twoset got destroyed by 5-year-old child prodigies. You would feel much better about missing out on a professional music career.
They are talking about athletes not musicians. That's what's wrong about classical music today. You don't have to be a virtuoso to be a musician. Just play your music in your own way. Be honest. Be inventive. If you do that you will be as good as any virtuouso, maybe even better.
This is the man who Horowitz voted for in a major competition couple decades ago, but sadly he didn't won that competition. However, the thing that Horowitz would never know is that Gary Graffman, who he voted for, is now the principle of Curtis
If you want to be an elite concert pianist who performs the music of 200 and 300 year old dead guys in a manner that's slightly different to how Horowitz, Richter, Rubinstein etc have performed, then yes, starting in your teens is likely too late. I get that everyone has different ambitions but I'm not sure why too many people would want to choose such a narrow dream. If I felt that I could really gift the world with an interpretation of some old Chopin or Beethoven classic that nobody of these dozens of elite pianists have in the past, maybe then I'd go for it. If you want to write and perform your own unique music and inspire generations coming, it's never too late, and there are thousands of living case studies to support that point.
One of the few pianists I've gone to see who really excitedme ! I've seen DeaRocha,Argerich (Chopin eminor with guiini),Milstein in soo recital payed his Pagiana at end , Pollini (5 Beethoven sonatas no encoreor maybe there was I actually don't remember nor did I notice how perfect he was , Arrau (BeethNo.4 he was very old by this time.I don't remember a note . Graffman played Prokofiev Dflat concerto no.1 andIve never forgotten how shiny and mettalic everything sounded . There was an electricity that night . later i wentto see Argerich a second timein Milami .Early 1980's .Cancelled .Andreswesky was the best Diabelli Ive ever heardand by that time I could actually judge piano sound and interpretation . Collard I don't even remember whAT HEplayed .Sgouros was amazing in liszt Sonata !
Wonderful;....however there are many fine, healthy young interpreters who know that a competition can offer them contacts and some contracts. A competition is not the end of the line or the end of life for them!!; nothing terrible regarding sharing, confronting, etc.!!
Very enlightening. Great interview. using the 4th finger for octaves is an absolute disaster and puts the wrist in a very unnatural position. The risks far outweigh the benefits.
I'm not sure why people can't understand simple English. He didn't say you can't play piano if you didn't start early in life. He is refering to World class performers and that does not mean you played in your mediocre city level orchestra. There are plenty of adult learners that have passed ABRSM Grade 8 . One guy on that forum passed grade 8 at 69
Piano unfortunately has been pretty much abandoned by the American kids. It’s picked by the Chinese kids now. Will be interesting to see what happens in another 20 years.
dude, When i was young, i adored the piano, now, i live breathe, sleep, at consume it. i am american. and am training to become a classical pianist. i will probably fail, but i don't care. I am going to give it my all, no matter what it takes.
To be really really good at playing piano requires tons of hard work and discipline, which is against the liberal way of raising children in much of the West.
You’d be foolish only if you were attempting to start a piano career:)) There are several success stories of very late piano learners who became accomplished and satisfied amateur players. Anyway.. how much for your piano?;)
Yeah, my issue is PN/ numbness, would really like some more about education/ pedagogy and how can we prevent these problems with students. I worry about so many self-taught young people, that sometimes they are getting some wrong ideas that can lead to injury.
I really wish you had asked Mr Graffmann about what Horowitz's piano was like. It was voiced so differently from other instruments. Or maybe he didn't want to discuss it?! How can any one play one hundred concerts a year for ao long? - I know Arrau did, consistently, for a lifetime, but to my mind it borders on masochism!!
I heard Horowitz in person. Of course he had a fabulous technique, but it was difficult for him to control. You could tell by the powerful and LOUD pedal points in the bass. Clarity in the treble was always there, but rather than a stable representation of the tempo, it was just done to "get over with" and prove it was easy for Horowitz. As far as Horowitz' piano, I don't know. My guess is that the hammers were ground town to make it louder and more percussive. Claudio Arrau never pounded. Nor did he play works that would wear down his hands and wrists, even though he was more than capable at doing them. For example, I don't think he ever played Bartok, which, if I were to guess, he did NOT like. Arrau always was a Beethoven specialist and even though he played the large piano concertos, he never pounded them out. He was always in control of minutiae and you could tell when you listened closely. Just my opinion(s). I could be wrong of course. Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
S. Richter was even more active as far as concert performances are concerned. Although, unlike Horowitz, he didn't get paid over a hundred thousand dollars for a every performance.....
What a lovely man. I think that the age you start is kind of irrelevant but he has a point. My point would be this: 19 in the piano class at Curtis, how many across the US, how many in the other conservatoires across the world? And then how many performance opportunities? It really is simple maths. So few people can earn a living as concert artists. If it still appeals, good luck but do have something that you can do to earn money when the phone isn't ringing. Just saying.
@@eveyueng8733 I'm just saying that it's a coincidence that he used Wuhan, relatively unknown outside China, as an example years ago. Nope,I don't have any problem with Wuhan. Why should I have any problem with Wuhan? I've never been to Wuhan. I don't know anyone in Wuhan. I don't know why you sound so angry though, as I didn't state anything offensive or derogatory.
Most people who are musicians don’t become the Wangs and Langs of the classical world but they can become successful musicians on their own right and have their own well deserved space such as recitalists or professors etc. I don’t understand why the ideal is always to be a concert pianist ( and the best ones) if only a minority can achieve that. Music is life. Humanity needs music. It’s not just something to become a celebrity. I wished I understood that from the beginning
Quite so. I have a a very rewarding career as a musicologist, performing and conducting here and there as the opportunity arose, and I didn't have to give up the sports I love.
Lang Lang belongs in Las Vegas, not in concert halls
Life needs support perhaps especially of financial support
Well said!
@@animalsarebeautifulpeople3094 Do you mean his playing isn't a high enough standard for the concert platform?
I began the violin at 12. At 17, with no great amount of practice I went to study at the Royal Academy of Music, London. After four years with not so much intense regular practice I joined a series of professional orchestras initially as a 1st violin but then as a sub/co/ principal. The lack of really thorough practice though played havoc with my bowing technique. Tensions built until after ten years I decided to leave and rework my technique. I did this so thoroughly that I have never had any technical problems since. In short, I relearned to play the violin in my 30s. I filled in the past. I corrected it and filled it deep into my past self. Whatever the received wisdom is, it can be done!
Thanks for sharing your experience and insight, Roger Stimson!
what you describe is a near life long journey so it’s rather misleading to say you learned to play in your 30s.. if anything your story is great example of how much time and dedication it takes to reach any level of mastery.. if one can ever reach it ..
😮
I hope you don't mean this as a counter example for his assertion that you need to start young to succeed as a world class musician. You literally started young and had enormous success. Making adjustments to reduce tension can't honestly be called "starting over", regardless of how frustrating it felt at the time.
@@mutex1024 but starting at 12 is kinda late. Most of the soloist already touring at 12...
Mr. Graffman, do you remember being with the Community Concert Series back in the '50's? You performed in Auburn, California, and you were gracious enough to allow me (a high school student) to attend your practice session the day of the concert. I have never forgotten your kindness, and it was part of the reason I chose music as a career. I never even came close to achieving your ability, but I had a very enjoyable and meaningful career.
I started playing at aged 19. I’m a concert guitarist now. It’s never too late.
At what age did you become a concert guotarist?
No you didn't catch what he means.
Brian Estrada
You’re a regular segovia.
Grödingen & Languages it was more a hobby that turned into an obsession. The more I played, the better I got. The better I got, the more I loved to play. I taught myself, mostly, and eventually studied with José Tomás in Alicante, Spain. When you play eight or nine hours a day, for years, you’re bound to get better. I’m kind of an accidental guitarist, in that, I didn’t plan on being a professional, I eventually got asked to teach people, got asked to perform places, then I got an agent. When I first started, I was supposed to be studying mathematics and computer science at Glasgow University, but I spend a lot of the time playing guitar. It just grew into a lot more, and when I started earning decent money, that made me realise I could make career out of it. “The longest journey starts with a single step” might be a corny nugget of wisdom, but it’s got a kernel of truth about it.
Brian Estrada aged 23, or 24. I’d have to look at my old pay packets from my agent. 😂
He out here flexing with the gucci belt 🔥😤🔥🔥😤😤🔥🔥
lmaoo
Gucci? No. That's a Gary Graffman buckle.
A gift from a Chinese student.
😂
Eric Dew The joke just flew over your head
The good News is: You don't have to be a Virtuoso to make good Music!
So never give up your Passion for Music!
LOVE GRAFFMAN... he hits all the main points.... I've listening to this interview over and over... I ALWAYS get something out of it... EVERY TIME!
Thanks for watching and commenting, Highinsight7 !
Even Yuja Wang confessed that she remembers best what she learned before she was 18 years old. Let's face it : Yuja Wang is an exception. Genius, and Beautiful.
Niets mis met haar verschijning Pieter. Maar helaas helaas zullen er nooit kleine Yuja's geboren worden, da's wel jammer. Mannen maken geen kans.
@@gertebert Ik bewonder haar om haar piano spel. Ik kan heel goed zonder de pathetische mannen, die hun armen van grote hoogte lieten neerdalen, om het interessant te maken. gaaaaap horrorwiets
I think that is a simple biological fact. It also goes for music you just passively listen to. I work as a stage manager and I get to hear a work for about 20 to 30 times until a run is over, including all rehearsals with runthroughs. Yet I remember nothing of the music after half a year. For example we did "La Cenerentola" and I could not hum you a single tune. However everything I heard before I was 18 is engraved into my memory. I could probably sing you the complete Ring from Memory for example, most definately the first act of Tristan, or the complete Magic Flute, huge chunks of Aida.
Can we all take a moment to admire Gary Graffman's belt buckle?
Gucci Gucci 😄😄
GG, his friend Glenn Gould's nickname. 😉
Lovely interview, wonderful pianist, fine man. His reminiscent glimpses of Horowitz and Serkin are precious. I admired his LPs - Beet3, Tchaik 1 & 2, Prokofiev...as a young teenager, then heard him in concert (2 recitals, 2 concertos; Tch2, Beet5), when he toured Australia. I eavesdropped in on his rehearsals, and taking a break, he chatted warmly, humorously and enthusiastically with this young intruder(!), offering to get me a best seat for the concerts if i wished. Thank you for this heartwarming video.
I remember with great pleasure hearing Arthur Rubenstein play with the Boston Symphany many times. What was remarkable was the great warmth and affection he expressed for the music and the tremendous rapport
....he had with the audience. I do not feel the affection and love for the music coming across from many of the young pianists I hear today. Yes, they are great technicians but that is all.
BTY, I heard Rubenstein actually play a wrong note at one of his Boston Symphony concerts! Of course you don't hear any wrong notes in recordings. This almost robot like feeling I'm afraid might be seeping into too many of the piano performances I hear today.
Peter, Zsolt, each episode more engaging than the last. Your engagements always uncover surprising insights. Interviewing is a nuanced skill and you have it in spades!
So much knowledge so little time. Wonderful interview. With great questions. 👍
VERY interesting and informative!
My sister won a full tuition scholarship to the Eastman School of Music on harp.
She was the harp faculty at the University of Denver, first call union harpist, and played with the Denver Symphony.
Her husband earned a master's and doctorate at Northwestern University on cello.
He recently retired from the Denver Symphony after 34 years and 25 years (summers) in the Colorado Central City Opera Orchestra.
There were some playing issues that he had to deal and cope with during his career.
My sister hasn't had any problems yet.
They both are 70 and still practice religiously every evening for a minimum of an hour.
They still do some public performances and my sister still has an active teaching studio.
I'm 72 and had s successful clarinet/sax studio for forty years.
I have some infrequent symptoms with numbness in my 4th and 5th fingers of my left hand. Fortunately, I have no playing responsibilities other than working with my students.
It seems many people are taking issue with Graffman saying you need to start learning an classical instrument (piano in his case, but you can extend this to violin, cello etc.) early in ones childhood. The overwhelming majority of great soloists prove that his is absolutely spot on.
Sure, you can learn anything at any age (humans are absolutely build for learning until the moment of death). But in terms of being an great performer, Graffmenn is 100% correct. So all those complaining about Graffman displaying... agism, just get over yourselves.
His comments have nothing to do with learning an instrument (or any other craft), becoming good, or even very good at it, an enjoying it, or even others enjoying your performances. Graffman specifically talks about the Wangs, Langs, Buniathishvillis, Hillary Hans etc of this world, as well as the past masters, almost anyone you care to name - who are household names as soloists of classical music.
Conducting an orchestra is probably an exception there, but even with that, great conductors have started learning an instrument, and therefore have been exposed to classical music, very early in their life. Plus orchestra conducting is not comparable to being an instrument soloist.
Right on. Some people only understand participation trophies. It is possible to do and learn anything but if you plan on being the best classical instrumentalist there's only a comparitive handful in the world.
@@jimyoung9262 perhaps, for piano, but, not for most other instruments, fortunately
Agreed. Too many arrogant ppl in the comment section thinking they are qualified while cannot even articulate notes
My mom was a pianist and I came out the womb looking for a piano. Jokingly I say this but my mom said I would crawl to the piano to sit next to my mom as she practice. By three I was reading basic music. This comment is spot on.
I practiced six hours a day weekdays. Two hours in the morning before school and five hours after homework was completed. And ten to twelve hours on weekends. As an. adult, this kind of practice schedule is almost impossible. Unless you work for yourself. The hours required to be a concert level pianist.
I had the bulk of my repertoire pieces learned by 16. As a kid in a conservatory this was the norm. Some kids had theres done by 12. Starting out late requires one to play a lot of catch up.
As a kid I did not have much ear training. As kid, learning Solfege would have been a breeze. As an adult it was very difficult to learn. And most late teen/young adults find it difficult to learn though its very possible.
Parents, put your kids in music classes early. The sacrifice will be worth it. They absorb like sponges and if it's there calling to play an instrument they will love it. You won't know if you don't try.
damn i already knew this from the start but why the frik am i crying now lmao
fantastic interview. Really insightful for any serious pianist
Thanks for watching, MusicalBasics!
Hey, it's Lionel! Loved your recent performance!
If you have the fire to be a musician, you can do it at any age. Don’t let anyone discourage you. Ever.
true but the common mortal seems to think having a set of matches is enough. you're gonna need the inferno of the sun.
Being a musician is one thing. Being a concert pianist is quite another thing.
@@pjbpiano LOL, but anyone can play Billy Joel's "The Piano Man" and get $5 in the till.
There are two opinions about succes in classical music - the more popular one and the one that's spoke about in this video is that you need to start at the age of max. 5, you need a perfect teacher and have to practice 8+ hours a day and that might not even be enough. Then you go on a competition and play everywhere, all the time and your life is just piano. Then there's another one - it doesen't matter when you start, teacher is recommended, but you can find everything on the internet and in books. If you enjoy yourself and get good, you can get little gigs, that can lead to being recognized and having some nice concerts, without being overwhelmed.
I agree with you, but a teacher is really a must to get past a certain level. You don't have fo to see the teacher every week, just go when you're stuck, but it's very helpful in the beginning
Hearing him say its too late for me saddens me so much. I used to play the piano for a few years when I was a kid (around 7 or 8 so not early enough that it would’ve greatly affected my musical development) but I was forced to and didnt enjoy it at all, ergo didnt really practice and as soon as my teacher stopped teaching I was finally freed from that annoyance called piano. But just recently the passion and desire to play the piano were ignited in my 19 year old heart and I want to become good. Good enough for people to notice me. Good enough for my music to touch people. Hearing it’s too late for me to make people feel the music how I feel it is just breaking my heart.
Composition?
@Jörmungandr I was being obscure (lazy.). To make a broad generalization, the classical world places heavy emphasis on performing works written by dead people, with an almost obsessive concern for virtuosity. It's a sport, like the olympics. But composition is what brought it all about, and doesn't require supreme technical ability. It's an infinity to explore. At the same time, getting people to notice you might not be a satisfying goal, ultimately. Not as satisfying as finding a kind of work that you enjoy and that consumes all of you. And now I've said too much. Sorry.
I think he saying if you want to play at the level of Yuga Wang or Lang Lang you must start young. For everyone else, you can jump in at any age and become a lovely talented pianist. No reason to be heart broken. I have taught students who started as adults and play quite well. Play for the love and joy music brings.
Seriously this guy hung out with Horowitz at his place after hours to help him pick out pieces. Well that’s just kinda unreal
Shay Thiele z
I was so lucky!!! I managed to go to the concert celebrating his 90th birthday with his assistant also teaching me some piano. AND I even got to meet, shake hands, talk, AND have a selfie with him (Mr. G Graffman).
Leo Bailey-Yang wow how old are you and when did you start?
just a reminder ， Mr Graffman is 91 years old
wow
He was too old when he was young. never learned anything new
He sharp and engaging still, your point?
vinyltap Don’t allow that garbage waft into your brain. He is brilliant. Time is an illusion, as is race (religion?) ... all human constructs to categorize “others” (race - to determine human worth if you’re racist).
@@Brainhoneywalker religion is most certainly an illusion ! A human invention morphed into an affliction. Bears no resemblance to morality or ethics. In the wrong hands, a killer.
What a brilliant man I love his total unaffectedness. A delight to listen to
I was lucky enough to hear Mr Graffman perform the first Brahms piano concerto and later to sign my Brahms score. This was around 1977. I remember talking to him about the detailed interpretation of a certain passage near the beginning. I mention this only because he said that that was around the time he started noticing a problem with his right hand.
I started at 14. One cannot rule out exceptions; I’m at an enormous disadvantage but I know it’s possible. It feels natural to me as it would for any of these people starting at five and three. Learning the Chopin G minor ballade (to a genuinely, competitively high standard), i have won competitions, and will be auditioning for conservatoires at the end of this year. Additionally, keyboardist in a rock band and solo jazz/blues pianist. I’m 17; not trying to suck myself off, but too late is a very strong thing to say.
@@LivingtheClassicalLife by the way, Volodos started at 14 as well.
And if I recall correctly, Lucas Debarque, which won a Chopin Competition started out pretty late as well.
But nonetheless, starting at 5-7 years old would be ideally the best.
Peter Hobbs ey cheers man keep up the good work with the interviews hope the channel takes off! x appreciate the kind words
pianosenzanima yeah fair point. That’s good encouragement, it’s a very weird position to be in! Technically a good amount of rep out there is within my reach but at the same time there are so many composers and so much music that I need to spend a lot of time catching up in a sense. There was a time when I unironically said Mozart is too mainstream I think Liszt is great, when in reality both composers were masters and are revered pretty universally hahahaha.
I started playing piano at 16, and even though I wouldn't call myself a first rate talent, I managed to graduate from a conservatory with the highest grade. I know I won't be a world renowned concert pianist (and I dont want to) but this at least shows that it is possible to reach a pretty high level even if you start late. Not trying to suck myself off either, just wanting to be encouraging.
pima it is, I think it’s a new thing that’s going to become more common as we go on. I don’t know about you but I personally started with synthesia learning stuff I liked, decided on lessons, and always picked the rep I did and only took suggestions from my teacher as well as putting in the necessary time of course! So I think the internet is a huge part of it and hopefully classical and the competitiveness of the field will improve with people saying we’re not all in Carnegie hall at 10
You can start late as long as you are really committed and feeling the music and practice daily with understanding what you are playing .Never be a little robot of the notes but feel them with all your soul .
do you work for hallmark?
A wonderful, exceedingly professional interview with an exceptional human being. Thank you for sharing this.
Zsolt thanks so much for a fabulous interview. I know nothing about music but your questions helped shine a light for us regular folk. Lol. Best wishes.
A jewel of an interview! He looks great and at91 is incredibly sharp. I recall hearing about his injury in Amherst Ma. while attending the Dorothy Taubman seminar. Her technique was aimed toward preventing just such hand injuries in musicians. Playing octaves with fingers 1 & 4 much less 3 was strictly forbidden, even with black keys. Later I heard Mr. Graffman speak in Monterey California. He was promoting his book ‘I Really Should Be Practicing,’ and signed my copy.
I took horn to a reasonably comfortable professional level and had some fine successes with good orchestras - Siegfried's Rhine Journey, Schumann Konzerstuck, all the Beethovens/Brahms/ some Mahler, etc. But I had some serious technical problems that I never confronted that occasionally caused a disaster here and there. I quit cold turkey when I was 50 because of other concerns. But I missed it so much, I took up the instrument again at age 67 - took on those problems that plagued me - and overcame them. I don't have the stamina I had 20 years ago but my technique finally took off. My lips are getting thin and I don't think I'll be winning auditions any time soon - besides there are too many outstanding young players in line!
But I have no doubt it can be done. It's a different beast than the piano - there are no 91 year old horn players still muscling through Bruckner symphonies. But love for the instrument never dies. It's a joy just to keep it up!
Why should the opinion of one man change my chances of me becoming an accomplished pianist. I’ll prove him wrong
@@LivingtheClassicalLife Me too!
@Dungeon Keeper I feel the same, I believe that with enough work, dedication and passion (which I have, classical music is my biggest passion) then anything can be achieved. I just finished composing my first piece, it's not really a piece but rather me experimenting and trying to understand how to compose (but I think that's standard for most first pieces). Ive also begun piano lessons and continue to work at the piano most of the day. I'm currently working on Beethoven's Sonata No. 7 (2nd movement), Chopin's Nocturne Op. 15 No. 3 (I am nowhere near qualified to play this but I try anyway because I love Chopin) and Tchaikovsky's 'October' from The Seasons Op. 37a.
@@LivingtheClassicalLife Thank you, maybe you could interview me when I reach the concert halls ha! :)
Same for me. Been playing for 3 years, almost 4, and I'm nowhere near the level I want to get at, so it was very heartbreaking to hear his thought about it. But I hope we do suceed, both you and me, and prove him wrong ! Good luck !
@@ILyel what's your goal? What do you hope to perform within the next 10 years?
One of the finest pianists of his generation. First introduced me to the Tchaikovsky 2nd and 3rd piano concertos in the sixties. Fantastic technique, sadly undermined by muscular problems.
Thanks for watching, Nick Gunning!
For the medical and musical record, the condition - focal diatonia is neurological, which means that it starts in the brain and affects the nerve signals to the body ( muscles ).
A prominent working and respected hypothesis includes over practicing causing a disproportionately enlarged sensory motor unit map which miscommunicates with the muscles of the body, causing involuntary contractions, spasms, tightness and loss of coordination, particularly for writers, musicians, and some athletes.
In golfers, the condition is colloquially called the “ yips “.
I’ve worked with some athletes and musicians who have suffered greatly with the condition including the late great Leon Fleisher; may G*d rest his gifted soul. ✨🙏✨
Conversation I actually had:
Him: No artist can ever become great unless they start very young. After age 13, there's no hope.
Me: Van Gogh was 29 when he did his first oil painting. He did informal doodles and drawings, didn't even get lessons, until he was 27.
Him: Yeah, Van Gogh was good. But he's no Rembrandt!
Meaning: if you start piano at age 17, maybe you won't be a Mozart. But if you have love and passion and sacrifice for your art, you can make a living at it, provide joy and beauty to thousands of people, and live a life in love with a transcendent pursuit. Sounds GREAT to me!
It’s funny because ingolf wunder started at 14
@@CobraBoss23 There you go! It's never too late to start doing something that you have love and passion for. It's always too late when you start something that is boring or that you don't care about.
That's precisely it. If you're 24 and want to learn an instrument, go for it. With enough dedication you can become quite good. But you will never become one of the all-time greats. It's the same in other areas. All great chess players for example started playing as children, many were prodigies. That doesn't mean you can't achieve a decent level if you start as an adult. I think it's important to manage your expectations in these matters, otherwise you're in for a big disappointment.
Gary Graffman is one of the best ever. His Prokofiev PC #3 with Szell is one of the greatest recordings of all time.
My mother was an honors graduate from Northwestern University Chicago in choral conducting and piano in the late 30's.
She tells of one of her juries after which the three professors actually applauded, something which was never done then and is pretty much the same today.
I had two sisters and me. We all took piano lessons (we had no input as to our opinion). She was too intelligent to teach us and researched the available qualified teachers.
My oldest sister won a full tuition scholarship on harp to the Eastman School of Music in Rochester, NY.
Everyone was required to audition on piano as a basic evaluation of skill. She sighted so well that she qualified to study with an actual piano professor.
She was the harp faculty at the University of Colorado-Denver, first call union harpist and played with the Colorado-Denver Symphony Orchestra.
My final accomplishment culminated at the end of my junior year with my learning the first movement of the Grieg Piano Concerto after which I "retired".
My real passion was clarinet and I was solo chair (out of 18) in my senior year.
We did a pro band arrangement of Rhapsody in Blue which included having to master the infamous "smear" as it was called in the mid-60's.
My band director thought I spent hours, but I basically had it under control in about 20 minutes and just needed to drill for reliability.
We did a local state band tour and got to perform it 4-5 times.
Later on I was asked to do it with our local adult community band.
The curse was that my son was in 7th grade and wanted to try it.
Foolishly I taught him how to do it and we were assaulted with the incessant "whine" for most of that year with it "piercing" our ears.
I sang with the Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra Chorus for thirty years including three different sold-out concerts in Carnegie Hall.
We were asked to augment the Chicago Symphony Orchestra Chorus for two different summer season opening concerts in Ravina, the Northshore of Chicago outdoor 100+ year sculpture garden concert venue seating 4,000 in the covered amphitheater and another 10,000 on the manicured lawns.
James Levine, the conductor of the Metropolitan Opera at the time brought eight Opera stars with him.
That's my little tale of
Thanks for sharing that amazing multigenerational anecdote, Chris K!
His recordings of the first three Prokofiev piano concerti are amazing!!
People, especially well known musical artists, have a way of seeing the world through their eyes only - he started piano at 3 and was at Curtis at 7. I understand what he is trying to get across and I also understand why it is ruffling feathers. I agree with what he is saying in part but always remember all great artists live in the bubble that they grew up in, succeeded in and spent their lives in. That is not to say it is the same for all. Great artists and teachers always have a way of making you believe what they say is the gospel… think about it… that’s their job and they’re good at it ! ;) There is some truth in it and perhaps especially so for pianists, violinists and organists to be the greatest in the world but… there are ALWAYS exceptions! I value and honor those who have persevered and followed their callings at whatever age they heard them!
There's a lot to it. I'm not keen on contests. They can be limiting, What matters is how people respond where you are playing, not how they respond to someone who is playing somewhere else.
For us is a Pleasure to listen. “ the Great GG .as a Life Lesson . and also YW and LL are Really Lucky .
This Man is the YODA of the 21st Centuries Greatest Pianist !!!....The Force is STRONG With Him !!!.....
Wonderful- Mr. Graffman’s 1st Chopin Ballade will always be my favorite- the lightness of his touch imo is the Chopin I imagine -
That was such an interesting interview into Garry,,could have listened to much more, forever grateful he put Lang Lang into my life, with his exceptional ability, to this day both of them are my no. 1, thankyou Garry xxxx Australia
Learn to enjoy gambling because Lang Lang belongs in Las Vegas
he reminds me of Dejango a gypsy guitar player who could only play with 2 fingers and was awesome
Django Reinhard
"Dejango" Reinhard the great guitarist lmao, i also like "West" Montgomery and "Jon" Pass
Django Reinhardt was definitely awesome, a true legend. But for the record, he was able to play with more than two fingers. It's the other way around: he was _unable_ to play with two fingers, his ring finger and pinky, after being very badly burned in an accident.
Wonderful interview. Thank you. Uh...also...I wonder if the interviewer (Zsolt Bognar?) sings. He has a spectacular voice.
Wonderful interview!
So true. I started too late, 14. I could see that I was never going to be as good as what I could appreciate. So I focussed on mathematics, etc. and found it wasn't too late for that.
Interesting interview. I watched it because Yuja Wang and Tiffany Poon are my two favorite pianists of the young generation, and I wanted to hear more about what he has to say about competitions... and Yuja. But I didn't know about Mr. Graffman's injury. My dad had exactly the same problem and it cut his career as concert performer short (that was in the 1930s). He managed to play again later in life; figured out fingerings for working around his handicap, but never could play at concert level again. He also went to different doctors, the last one in the 1970s, and none could figure out the problem, only that it seemed to be a neuro - muscular injury of some sort, and that there was no treatment.
So sorry about your dad
Please allow me to gush about Yuja Wang's Feb 28, 2020 recital at Carnegie Hall. Spectacular! The heightened anticipation she created by Not following the order of the written program was thrilling! As she announced before stepping on stage; "... I believe every program should have a life of it's own and be a representation of how I feel in the moment - I want to let the music surprise me. Please experience the concert with all your senses and an open mind, and enjoy the ride." Sparkling, long white gown. The gentle and innocent first notes of Galuppi's Sonata No 5 reached out like a small child happily greeting a friend, inviting us to play. (in a twist of expecting the unexpected, that was the first song in the written program!) Followed by Scriabin's Sonata No 5 Op 53, then Ravel's Une barque sur l'ocean sent us riding the waves in ecstasy! Short break, then back out with Mompou's Secreto (which I felt deserved much more applause!), Berg's Piano Sonata, then Bach Tocatta BWV 911. Intermission. Glittering green sequins for the 2nd half of Chopin Mazurkas and Brahms Intermezzos, then Brahms' Romance, and Scriabin's Sonata No 4. (a broken string at the high end?) Encores: Schubert/Liszt Gretchen am Spinnrade D 118, Prokofiev's Tocatta (my God, the driving Thunder!! This was the Ultimate for me!) then finally, Gluck's Melodie from Orfeo ed Euridice. So grateful to have experienced this!! Hoping all Yuja's fans get to experience her extraordinary talent - live, with all your senses, an open mind and an open heart!
I agree. They use their muscles and nerves too much due to long hours of practice and performing. Filipinos say when you use your hands or any parts of your body, rest for awhile then you can take a shower? or wet your hands. I myself when I iron my clothes I do it before I go to sleep. I rest for thirty minutes or so then I go to bed without wetting my body or hands. This is the same when playing the piano. This what happened to Muhammad Ali. We need to take care of our body and not to put too much pressure on it.
I wished I stayed playing the piano but my brain led me to something else.
I invested my money and time for my son to take piano lessons for years and he started at young age. I was there taking him to lessons and recitals. Now, my piano is lonely because no one is playing the piano.
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Today’s date is July 21, 2020, Tuesday from the West Coast California, USA 🇺🇸. I am 🇺🇸🇵🇭.
Favorite pianists of the young generation - completely agree with you! They are so distinctively different in interpretation and styles but love love them both.
Idk why people are so salty about his comment that you need to start early to be world class. It's like if an Olympic athlete said you need to start training early to be world class, it's simply how the human brain and body works
Too many arrogant ppl thinking they can be considered "concert pianists"
Such an interesting man. He is living a wonderful life. A happy man.
Mr. Graffman and all of Wuja's teachers, you are all performers of the Buddha's third miracle. The Buddha explained the three types of miracle to his followers. First is the miracle of psychic power, walking on water, levitation etc. NOT IMPORTANT, a waste of time. Second is the miracle of foretelling the future. Also not important! Third is the miracle of teaching. Very important, because someone you teach may go out and change the world! TAKE A BOW!
This pre-supposes that the only way to be musically "talented" is to be able to play the conventional repertoire as a virtuosic executive (ie "playing") musician in concert halls. But there is composing, arranging, conducting, multi-instrumentalists, jazz (which requires a facility with rhythm and harmony rather than just virtuosity), the ability to improvise, orchestral playing, and a hundred other ways to be accomplished. For every one classical virtuoso there are several thousand perfectly good and well-trained musicians who make the world a better place, but they are often written off as "failures". I recognise that this interview is about a narrow part of the musical world, but sadly it just perpetuates the myth that musicians are of little real value unless they are virtuosi or unless they practice 10 hours a day from the age of six. They are indeed brilliant and wonderful, but nearly all of them have a narrow repertoire of 100-200 year old music which they play over and over again from one concert hall to another. Unfortunately the classical world.
The real value in music is, like poetry, art, film and other creative pursuits, the broadening of minds and a civilising element to the benefit of all.
love your very eloquent comment. You are right 100%.
fingerhorn4, Yes, there is truth in what you say. It's an evolution, isn't it, the discovery that there is more to music than repetition. I wouldn't want to decry the achievements of great classical pianists, but Art Tatum tops them all. Andre Previn was one of the best Mozart pianists of his day by virtue of his facility with jazz. Nigel Kennedy is a jack-of-all-trades. Nina Simone turned her mastery of the piano to good use. Variety is the spice of life . . .
Very well said!
well said
Couldn't agree more. Which is why it's an ever-shrinking market...both in sales and tickets.
Last time I went to a classical concert at the Milan Conservatorio...90 % of the public was over 60 yo...and after 15 min half of them were asleep !! 😂
It looked like I was in a nursing home rather than a music concert !
Classical scene needs a kick in the ass to bring in younger demographics...like what the Prague Orchestra is doin' by playing movie OST (Imperial March from SW or Hams Zimmer stuff)
The classic performance disc of his Prokofiev 1 & 3 (and the third sonata) were life changing for me, when I was 11. I'd never heard anything like it.
Great interview. Thanks for sharing. Regarding the focal dystonia, this is becoming an increasing presence in musicians' performance abilities, but covers other fields as well such as the artist for Gilbert cartoons, a friend of mine who was a court reporter and others that have been struck down by this debilitating infliction. It seems to attack persons who do a lot of repetitive actions that all these disciplines cover. So I think it is just overdoing it in some cases and the muscles just give out and nerve damage is the result plus the victim cannot resume normal function (performing at previous level as before) in most cases. I speak from experience as a woodwind player. This condition attacked me in my late 30s and haven't been able to play very well after that. Showed up in a practice session and in a week most muscle memory with embouchure was gone. So, to musicians I cross frequently I suggest they not overdo it or this can be very debilitating.
Thanks so much for sharing your experience, Scooter Macarthy. Very sorry that it has been so difficult.
Graffman is part of that long lineage from the great Romantic composers and now Yuja Wang is carrying on that tradition. So many of the newest pianists seem to think that speed is the goal and the result is a mishmash of sound. I was raised on the grand, romantic style - Van Cliburn, Graffman, Horowitz, Bolet, Hough
Pianists.Composers are the ones who wrote the music ....you know like Chopin and Liszt and guys like them before;-))
@@adrianfundescu5407 Should have composer / players. Many players are composers (though their works are not familiar or popular.
Cliburn is 🐐
@@gixelz Not sure what that scribble is
@smb12321 gixelx put an emoji, or picture, of a goat 🐐 after "Cliburn is" to indicate he thinks Cliburn is the GOAT: Greatest Of All Time, in his opinion. 😀
Yuja Wang works her hands so hard, I worry that she may someday have a problem similar to Mr. Graffman's.
yeah that is exactly what looks worrisome in her playing as if her hands are just steely
Chinese training is very unhealthy somewhat abusing
Lang Lang actually injured his left arm, don't know if Wang will any soon, but it is indeed worrisome.
My heart goes out to both Gary and Zsolt regarding their inability to play. I am a retired doctor (surgeon) who could play concertos, even though I never became a musician. I never attained the technique of Graffman, so I never played the huge concertos he played. I can still play but obviously not at their level.
I think that (ultimately) focal dystonia is an overuse syndrome. I believe Gary is correct when he mentioned that he might have stretched some structures in his hand, in particular the inter-osseous inter carpal ligaments. Eventually, they became stretched- out and could no longer function properly.
Once they get stretched, there is an essential imbalance in structure and anatomy that occurs. I think that this is the crux of dystonia. There is a natural tendency...after some damage has been done...to "use" other anatomy to "make up" for the primary damage. So the cycle of damage continues and extends to other, neighboring anatomy.
How can it be avoided? I think the answer is in front of us. NO MORE Prokoffiev concertos, say than once/year. NO BARTOK at all. No weird arrangements of Stravinsky for piano solo. No pounding. No multiple octaves at thrice tempo. No piece with only arpeggios (Liszt).
I have written warnings on line for a number of young artists. I think that I actually got through to Yeol Eum Son, even though she never responded publicly to me. She was playing huge works and she is physically small....but that is NOT the overriding factor.
I ASKED HER TO START PLAYING MORE MOZART AND EARLY BEETHOVEN. Now, I see she is doing exactly that.
I know there is an enormous thirst for the Brahms' concertos (which I used to be able to play) and Rach 3 (which I never could). But there has to be a LIMIT on those also. Helene' Grimaud never did Rach 3, but does both Brahms's instead. Rubinstein never did Rach 3. But he did a lot of Chopin. But I think he was in control of them and alternated fingering scientifically....even if he was not aware of that. Also, his tempi were reasonable and he never pounded. Ever. There are some fingering "tricks" in the First Chopin Scherzo that avoid stretching. That's what I do.
We have to remember that a classical piano career is absolutely NOT normal. No human's anatomy can or was built to withstand the trauma of routinely performed gigantic, thumping and stretching works. None. There is an exquisite balance...that once offended...can never be retracted.
Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
Thanks a lot for your awesome input!!
Thank you
Very insightful- thanks- would assume the Taubman method (a very safe way of using the hands) would be difficult to apply to the pieces you mentioned. What a great idea- include sort of a black box warning for certain pieces
@@AL-pu7ux Thank you Anthony. The enormous competition among young artists to establish their careers compels them to perform terrifying, damaging works for the "thunder power." I get that. I became a surgeon. The competition in medicine is NOTHING like the competition among pianists. By comparison...there is no comparison. I established my surgery practice and retired at a young age. This would be impossible in classical piano.
I think I was a fine surgeon. But I could not do Rach 3, and unless you can...you cannot establish a career....although there are exceptions, like Helene' Grimaud, who studiously avoids it.
Yuja has a wonderful career. I don't know if she still does the Prokofiev concertos. I hope not. What never ceases to amaze me is HOW many wonderful artists there are! It is a stupendous achievement. I was not a neurosurgeon, but I suggest that getting to the level of Rach 3 is akin to becoming a neurosurgeon!
If you believe in God, as I do, you can only assume that the human brain is somehow able to master impossible achievements...and this comes from God. And it is even COMMON!
Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
I agree with your points and I would say those concert artists who have not suffered a significant injury due to an unrealistic workload are simply lucky - for now. I think another major issue is that pretty much all piano conservatories teach in a way that there really isn't much care or concern about sustaining our physical apparatus. I personally studied piano under a student of Rudolph Serkin, and the sole focus was the music. It was absolutely invaluable however very little was ever discussed about such issues as I just feel it's not considered that important until it's too late
This is great, not sure how I missed it.
You should do an episode with Koji Attwood
It’s never too late I’m almost done with learning concert level music and I started four years ago I’m 20 now I don’t like this negative connotation if there is a will there is a way
yeah... the question is: what exactly do you mean by “concert level music”? There are light years between an accomplished artist and a hobby artist. That is not to diminish the latter though - the objectives are light years apart as well...
Capitán Salazar you do realize because someone is not not performing publicly does not mean they are not accomplished musicians. That is just a choice some make, others like me do private competition or paid gigs but mostly interpretation study at this point.
Capitán Salazar and if you don’t know. Concert level music is really just the most technical and rigorous level that classical pieces have to offer. Right now the hardest kinds of pieces are ones such as the guido agosti firebird orchestral reduction. After that haven’t seen anything worse
Vix Villa yes there are likely many non-performing and yet accomplished musicians out there. But I disagree on the term “concert pianist”: concert pianist by definition means a performing musician. it’s not related to the technical complexity of the literature performed.
Capitán Salazar of course I’ve performed but I haven’t gone mainstream because I don’t have the time I am a biology major as well as a piano performance one. You may disagree but at the end of the day only one of us is actually in that world.
16 is too old..... maybe for become a super concert pianist star.
I began when I had 13 with synthesia Xd, and I took it seriously when I turned 16. Now that I’m 21 . I just can say, maybe you won’t be able to play with a tremendous virtuosity or learn big hard pieces in just weeks. Your way will be harder than others that began at 6 or ... 3 years old . But with effort and discipline you can achieve many things (obviously with a good teacher that knows how to make you improve according to your abilities)
In my experience I’ve could play some bach, Mozart concertos. Schumann and Grieg piano concerto. Some Chopin etudes and a couple of Liszt trascendental etudes. Many sonatas of different classical composers. Some Bach’s suites and tocatta, etc.
So, maybe someone with 21 who began at 3 could learn and play rach 3 in a couple of months, that’s something that I can not do and I do not think to learn at the moment lol. Then, do not give up ! Keep studying and improving everyday :D
Many people commenting about the "starting early" answer are not seeing the question and the answer for what they are! The question is how to form and foster a first-rate talent into a well-rounded musician, and the answer is "they SHOULD be started early, that's the most important thing." He's not saying they "must" be started early, nor is he saying this is the only thing, nor is he saying that people who start late can't be first-rate. But ideally, they should start early.
Excelente entrevista. Es admirable el lenguaje tan directo con el que Gary Graffman aborda temas que a veces no nos gusta conocer: el duro entrenamiento físico al que se someten los músicos desde muy temprana edad; y las contingencias que pueden llegar a estropear su carrera.
En tiempos recientes como cibernauta, observo que además de dominar la técnica y tener una musicalidad original, las estrellas de la música clásica (directores de orquesta, cantantes, solistas, y si me apuran hasta compositores) deben ser jóvenes, bellos y carismáticos.
I totally agree about starting to learn piano early young, because the kids muscle is still soft and easy to develop.
I start playing Piano in 2012, and I have to practice 8 hours a day to make my finger playing faster with effortless. It's been 7 years and everyday I have to flex my hands and fingers all the time or otherwise my playing become stiff. So this is the drawback starting playing Piano as adult.
The People how old were you when you started?
Him: “16 years old... it’s too late.”
Me, a now 17 year old pianist who started at age 16: **im in trouble**
Holy shit same here man
Don't take that seriously. You can become really good at the piano still. What he means to say is that you will never be the best of the world. But don't let that stop you just enjoy and keep going ;)
I started half a year before it was too late. Phew!
He means that its too late to become a concert pianist. Dont worry i also started at 18 (now im 20 now.) im so glad a lot of classical pieces are made for studying purposes at ALL levels so playing piano can be fun even if it will take forever before being to play a piece by Chopin :3
@@ahappyfrenchtoast2669 You should never think like that, play what you want, harder pieces take longer to learn but they are worth the time and effort (I am learning revolurionary etude right now, even though I started not even a year ago)
I'm not a "pianist" by any stretch but I know enough to evaluate what I see and hear a real pianist do, and on that basis I've seen RUclips videos of Yuja Wang playing live and she's scary. What got me was just how staccato she was able to play chords at high volumes. I get it that the point of piano playing isn't the sheer athleticism (although I appreciate that aspect of it) but my thinking was more along the lines of, here's a mechanical instrument that responds exclusively to player input and there's an envelope to the instrument's performance that a player can push and that's what I sensed Wang was doing. Piano actions have evolved the way they have over the centuries because of performers pushing what a piano could do into the realm of what they thought it *ought* to be able to do and who knows, maybe Steinway, Yamaha, etc. will be woodshedding their actions in the years to come because of what the current generation of classical pianists are doing.
His Tchaikovsky #1 with George Szell and his Rachmaninoff #2 with Leonard Bernstein are my favorite versions of all time. The fact he mentored Yuja Wang is so thrilling to me as her versions of these are just as magnificent. Love you, Gary... and you, too, Yuja.
yes the best no longer need to compete
It is important to note that his perspective about starting late is only talking about being a top tier competitor in whatever discipline one wants to dive into. Yes(mechanically speaking) age & talent are a huge factor. But creativity & passion have NO AGE LIMIT. One can pick up an instrument at 50 & create a hit. Success is circumstantial.
I started piano at 14 (almost 15). I received my Bachelors, Masters, and I am a dissertation away from receiving my Doctorate of Musical Arts (DMA) degree all from Manhattan School of Music. My teacher is Nina Svetlanova.
Never let anyone tell you your limits. Work your hardest. Figure out how to overcome. Get a great teacher that knows how to solve your technical problems.
Be the best version of yourself. Record yourself constantly. Perform constantly. You will grow everyday. Set goals. Reach them. Prove doubters wrong.
I am going to show your reply to my son. I taught him a few piano basics when he was young, (I did my Bachelors at Indiana U ) and he had an immediate, intuitive grasp of sound, technique and note reading. He only played for about a year, abruptly quit, but occasionally over the years would learn something if it caught his ear. At age 12 he started playing again, transcribing classical pieces he listened to, and then started back using music, but insisting on teaching himself. From age 14-15 he took lessons with an excellent teacher and did well in performances and a competition. At that point his teacher felt he played as well as any college auditions he had heard in our state. Now my son is working on his own again...also playing jazz and composing a bit. His knowledge of theory boggles my mind, since he hasn't studied it. Lately he says he knows that he wants a career in music, but feels the pressure of what people might expect, since he just turned 16. He feels he has missed his chance. He often says he doesn't have time to catch up. Thank you for your encouraging story.
If something has never been done, it's an opportunity to be the first!
I think lots of people missed the point Gary tried to make.
Funny he mentioned Wuhan in 2018. (It is now May 2020).
Proceeds to cough
What is funny about it?
@@jogennotsuki because nobody knew of Wuhan until February 2020, now it is as famous as NYC
Muscles can be coordinated and trained . You don’t need to start early necessarily. One just need to have the right instruction ( which is rare) . One needs to be aware of suppleness of the hands , core activation , seating bones , relaxation of upper back and shoulders , self awareness as far as tension and wrong use of muscles ( e.g chest ) , understand the well coordination among leading fingers , wrist ( which should be flexible at all times) and natural fall of the forearms , One needs to understand musicality and texture . How many people deem to play the piano but merely type the keys, not offering any texture or deep tonality . How many of those are unaware of their natural arm weight ? Musical line has to stand out with different tones and textures , the rest , even if from the same hand , needs to humbly lay low . people have to listen first ! And record themselves playing and see the huge difference between their playing and Cortot’s for example. One must read books like : Chopin , pianist and teacher as seen by his pupils . All this a good teacher can guide and even if you are in your 20’s but desire to put some effort you can accomplish many things .you still can become a great artist .
You missed the point. You can be OK or good if you start later, but to be great you need to be discovered very young so you grow into it. As Gary mentioned, 16 is already too late to optimize your potential, assuming a 6 year old and the 16 year old have the same natural talent. You cannot catch up on those missed 10 years.
@@lvg777 because there is no scientific research about this theme Gary’s opinion on the matter is based on subjectivism and therefore has no validity for research purposes . When somebody is older there is one new variable to consider : other priorities + absence of great masters unwilling to teach adults for fearing they are wasting time. But if somebody is adamant on their decision to play really well and work intelligently their way up there for around 3 hours a day and more during days off , they can accomplish whatever their ambition was. If it was to play Rach 3 musically and technically clean, they can . If it is to accomplish Chopin’s ops 25 with great speed, accuracy , musicality , they can as well. However , we will never know for sure because experiments and again research have not been conducted in this direction. I guess, when you become older, you lose some of the passions you had when youth and gets satisfied with little .
@@mr.p5446 All factors being equal: Same passion and hard work, same natural talent, same standard of education, I'm siding with Gary on this, that the late starter will never reach the same level of greatness. I'm not arguing that late starters can't achieve high levels, but they won't achieve their maximum potential.
" I didn’t allow Lang Lang or Yuja Wang to compete" == I HIGHLY respect your Wisdom
I know you don't want to hear this, but my God specializes in the impossible. ❤
Tell me about it
I didn’t get a piano until I was almost 14
Very frustrating
David Lucey you can watch twoset got destroyed by 5-year-old child prodigies. You would feel much better about missing out on a professional music career.
They are talking about athletes not musicians. That's what's wrong about classical music today. You don't have to be a virtuoso to be a musician. Just play your music in your own way. Be honest. Be inventive. If you do that you will be as good as any virtuouso, maybe even better.
I started playing at 17 and still got more than 70 to go
Ten years of effort don't magically change no matter your starting age
Ken Teh there’s truth to what you are saying, music playing must come from the heart with passion!
@@dirkstrickland135 Could you re-write that?
Great interview! Bless him. He's 91½ years old right now!
Thanks for watching, chrishewittpiano!
Wow I didn't think he was older than 75. Jeez I hope I'm that sharp when I get old! Brb gonna eat some veggies
This is the man who Horowitz voted for in a major competition couple decades ago, but sadly he didn't won that competition. However, the thing that Horowitz would never know is that Gary Graffman, who he voted for, is now the principle of Curtis
If you want to be an elite concert pianist who performs the music of 200 and 300 year old dead guys in a manner that's slightly different to how Horowitz, Richter, Rubinstein etc have performed, then yes, starting in your teens is likely too late. I get that everyone has different ambitions but I'm not sure why too many people would want to choose such a narrow dream. If I felt that I could really gift the world with an interpretation of some old Chopin or Beethoven classic that nobody of these dozens of elite pianists have in the past, maybe then I'd go for it. If you want to write and perform your own unique music and inspire generations coming, it's never too late, and there are thousands of living case studies to support that point.
What a great series. 👍
Thanks so much for watching, James Bowie!
When Graffman cancelled those concerts, other pianists got the break they'd been waiting for. It's an ill wind... as they say.
One of the few pianists I've gone to see who really excitedme ! I've seen DeaRocha,Argerich (Chopin eminor with guiini),Milstein in soo recital payed his Pagiana at end , Pollini (5 Beethoven sonatas no encoreor maybe there was I actually don't remember nor did I notice how perfect he was , Arrau (BeethNo.4 he was very old by this time.I don't remember a note . Graffman played Prokofiev Dflat concerto no.1 andIve never forgotten how shiny and mettalic everything sounded . There was an electricity that night . later i wentto see Argerich a second timein Milami .Early 1980's .Cancelled .Andreswesky was the best Diabelli Ive ever heardand by that time I could actually judge piano sound and interpretation . Collard I don't even remember whAT HEplayed .Sgouros was amazing in liszt Sonata !
How many people below do not understand what the story in this interview is? it is not what age your start but a whole heap of other important stuff
Yes they’re absolutely the truly mostly gifted students in the world!
His autobiography I REALLY SHOULD BE PRACTISING
The GG Gucci belt buckle is perfect!!!
I know this might sound a bit cliche but I just want to say that with God all things are possible. ❤
Wonderful;....however there are many fine, healthy young interpreters who know that a competition can offer them contacts and some contracts. A competition is not the end of the line or the end of life for them!!; nothing terrible regarding sharing, confronting, etc.!!
Graffman has the best version of Rachmaninoff"s Prelude in G# minor, Op. 32 No. 12
100% agree
Thank you. Exceptionally interesting and informative.
Very enlightening. Great interview. using the 4th finger for octaves is an absolute disaster and puts the wrist in a very unnatural position. The risks far outweigh the benefits.
Anthony Rios Depends on the piece. I’d lose my hands just to he able to play Scriabin’s 5th sonata properly just once.
If you like Mussorgski's Pictures at an Exhibition, try Gary Graffman's recording. If I could find mine, I would post it.
I'm not sure why people can't understand simple English. He didn't say you can't play piano if you didn't start early in life. He is refering to World class performers and that does not mean you played in your mediocre city level orchestra.
There are plenty of adult learners that have passed ABRSM Grade 8 . One guy on that forum passed grade 8 at 69
Huge amount of students are learning piano in PRC
Algorithms just kicked in apparently.
Piano unfortunately has been pretty much abandoned by the American kids. It’s picked by the Chinese kids now. Will be interesting to see what happens in another 20 years.
dude, When i was young, i adored the piano, now, i live breathe, sleep, at consume it. i am american. and am training to become a classical pianist. i will probably fail, but i don't care. I am going to give it my all, no matter what it takes.
a human being who plays piano . You must be very special and talented. Keep doing what you enjoy . Very happy for you!
To be really really good at playing piano requires tons of hard work and discipline, which is against the liberal way of raising children in much of the West.
Anyone want to buy a piano? I am 77 and just started to learn to play. guess I am foolish for even starting at this age. Thanks Gary Graffman!
You’d be foolish only if you were attempting to start a piano career:)) There are several success stories of very late piano learners who became accomplished and satisfied amateur players. Anyway.. how much for your piano?;)
Can u do interview with a Doctor who experiences to handle case like vocal dystonia hand ? Maybe talk about the treatment / etc around that topic
Yeah, my issue is PN/ numbness, would really like some more about education/ pedagogy and how can we prevent these problems with students. I worry about so many self-taught young people, that sometimes they are getting some wrong ideas that can lead to injury.
I really wish you had asked Mr Graffmann about what Horowitz's piano was like. It was voiced so differently from other instruments. Or maybe he didn't want to discuss it?! How can any one play one hundred concerts a year for ao long? - I know Arrau did, consistently, for a lifetime, but to my mind it borders on masochism!!
I heard Horowitz in person. Of course he had a fabulous technique, but it was difficult for him to control. You could tell by the powerful and LOUD pedal points in the bass. Clarity in the treble was always there, but rather than a stable representation of the tempo, it was just done to "get over with" and prove it was easy for Horowitz.
As far as Horowitz' piano, I don't know. My guess is that the hammers were ground town to make it louder and more percussive.
Claudio Arrau never pounded. Nor did he play works that would wear down his hands and wrists, even though he was more than capable at doing them. For example, I don't think he ever played Bartok, which, if I were to guess, he did NOT like.
Arrau always was a Beethoven specialist and even though he played the large piano concertos, he never pounded them out. He was always in control of minutiae and you could tell when you listened closely.
Just my opinion(s). I could be wrong of course.
Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
S. Richter was even more active as far as concert performances are concerned. Although, unlike Horowitz, he didn't get paid over a hundred thousand dollars for a every performance.....
One years I played 177 concerts...now only 80(last year 82)
What a lovely man. I think that the age you start is kind of irrelevant but he has a point.
My point would be this: 19 in the piano class at Curtis, how many across the US, how many in the other conservatoires across the world? And then how many performance opportunities? It really is simple maths. So few people can earn a living as concert artists. If it still appeals, good luck but do have something that you can do to earn money when the phone isn't ringing. Just saying.
I’m not iPad savvy in my eighties.
How do I get a catelogue. Living the Classical life
You can see the whole series at www.livingtheclassicallife.com/ Thanks for watching, Ran Blake!
You my not be iPad savvy but you are piano and music savvy. Ran Blake!
He just used Wuhan as an example, out of hundreds of cities in China.
@@eveyueng8733 I'm just saying that it's a coincidence that he used Wuhan, relatively unknown outside China, as an example years ago. Nope,I don't have any problem with Wuhan. Why should I have any problem with Wuhan? I've never been to Wuhan. I don't know anyone in Wuhan. I don't know why you sound so angry though, as I didn't state anything offensive or derogatory.
Goon Hoong Tatt Yeah, l know, right? I noticed it too. What a coincidence! Very relevant these days LOL
He must have known something, when I am watching this in 2020.
@@steinwaydhamburg1017 if anything these kids are practicing 40 hours a day cause of the qurantine
Goon Hoong Tatt new conspiracy theory: Gary Graffman started coronavirus
Lucas Debargue started serious study very late. Arcadi Volodos didn't start taking the piano seriously till his teens if recall correctly.