So I go 320 grit (2) passes, 600 grit (2) passes, 800 grit (2) passes, ceramic hone (2) passes and then I finish with a leather strop coated in chromium oxide. That’s how I sharpen my Kizer Gemini in 4v. So I have been handling knives for about 25 years and the new generation of knife enthusiast have really become blade steel snobs. The industry, whether it be Crucible or Bohler or some other company is constantly pushing the envelope in steel technology and you see all these varieties of steel, some very close in composition to the other just popping up all the time. I am still a firm believer that most of your blade steel is a product of how much time and effort the manufacturer puts into proper and consistent heat treat. A good example is Spyderco, I have an old ambitious Spyderco in 8cr13mov and it has been an absolute tank. I saw a RUclips video where a guy does a legitimate HRC test on that exact same knife and his 8cr13mov blade tested to almost 62 hrc. Along with that he also tested for edge retention. He took (2) Spydercos one in 8cr13mov and another one in S30V and both of them cut 450 pieces of cactus rope while still being able to slice paper. I have a Benchmade 940 in S30V that is very difficult to sharpen for some reason and it seems like it is just hard as hell. A lot of these good quality stainless steels and tool steels when properly heat treated are probably more than capable of handling what 99.9% of users are going to put them through. So there’s my two cents on the steel insanity that has swept over the industry.
I agree. In terms of a high performance blade most people will love any steel that has a top notch heat treatment. The trouble with factory made knives is finding consistent and quality heat treatment! That all said. The best 8Cr13MoV on the planet will not hold a candle to a decent K390. There is a lot more to edge retention than just slicing paper too. Steel snobs, yes but it's all about what a person wants to get out of their tools or hobby.
Just got my first DLC 4V blade; a St. Nick’s Manix2 XL. It’s my first Manix2, (of any kind), as well. Fantastic knife. Love the color way and the size. It’s a slicier hard use option than my Shamen.
@@gregoryblake3377 It’s a big damn knife, no way around it. The YoJumbo, Military, and especially the Native Chief are all a bit more pleasant in the pocket, (and have similarly sized blades). That said; the XL is the Spyderco I’d take to the woods. It’s a very capable cutting tool for all general tasks, as well as some harder use, (if necessary). The exceptionally high strength of the caged ball bearing lock helps with that.
Yo... It looks like you raided my knife collection : ) My most carried blades are spot on what you seem to prefer. K390, and the rest of the Hard / Tough steel out there. The only exception is M390 just wished they would run the steel harder... Thanks for the video. : )
Great minds think alike! The M390 para 3 is the only one I really enjoy because it’s definitely up there in hardness but too bad that practically makes it a unicorn!
So one thing about these 5% chromium steels. (like most of the pm cold work tool steels, k390, the v series, vanadis 4/8) and the high speed steels, though possibly to a lesser extent. Is the chromium actually can help with the corrosion resistance to a surprising extent. But, that's only when they are tempered in the 300-400 range, rather than in the secondary hardening range. The thing is, you just wont see production companies bothering to temper them down there 99% of the time. Because it means they can overheat, and soften the blades easier. But you can even potentially reach higher hardnesses, while keeping the the toughness actually higher than you expect. Anyway. Yeah, these are definitely some nice steels, all of the v steels are great for different applications, with 10v being my favorite for edc, and in the kitchen.
For high hardness, I feel like spyderco is the only game in town for production knives. I wonder if spyderco is going to dial up the hardness on regular production magna-cut based on feedback from people who got the mules. Across the board it would seem that most folks are saying that it could do with being a but harder than 62.
Spyderco is old reliable! They are really limited by factory heat treat processes for Magnacut so they can only go so high. I think they did a great job with it honestly just that it’s not 100% for me because I live in a harder, higher carbide world. For most people though it’s going to be a leap forward
@@EngineersPerspective701 I guess it all depends if they use cryo or a freezer after their vacuum furnace heat treat. Even a commercial freezer could bring up the hardness.
@@nandayane I guarantee they go subzero for magancut. There’s a video out there where Eric says they go subzero on their 8Cr13MoV so they never hold back! With time it’ll probably get dialed in and we haven’t even seen their production runs of it yet so we’ll just have to wait and see!
@@EngineersPerspective701 if they are going subzero 63-64 should be no issue then. I think Larrin was able to get around 63-64 range with vacuum furnaces and cryo. I am hoping that they run their production harder than their mules.
@@nandayane the mule average was 62.7HRc so I’m guessing 63 was the target hardness. Keep in mind that according to the spec sheet which does not guarantee anything 64HRc is the MAX. Rarely is it ever easy or simple to push things. I really do hope they get a 63.5HRc average while maintaining low retained austenite and a solid grain structure.
I really, really like this model…which is saying something because I’m not a fan of DLC. It just *works* for this one, though…especially with 4v which is a beautiful steel. My favorite steels will all start to whittle hair between 4-8 microns and 4v does this without breaking a sweat.
Reminiscent of a decent D2 like benchmade used to do. High front end sharpness holding but I don't remember what the D2 working edge was like. Gotta love the VC
Hmm, maybe the ease of sharpening is due to finer carbides, finer than the abrasive grit, since you're not grinding down chunky enriched Cr carbides. (Following the "Science of Sharp" findings showing that carbides are cut rather than scooped out during sharpening).
Very possible! My guess is that it's strongest contributors are low austenite stabilizing chemistry and high hardness gives a very nice microstructure that doesn't want to hold onto a burr instead really wanting to form a fine, clean edge. I believe a person mostly notices the small microstructure in the final edge that comes up super fine!
Great video man, I really want to try some high hardness 4v. Had a 62hrc malanika which was good but not pushing that performance. Thought 4v was closer to 4% vanadium in composition?
The hardness is going to make a big difference but no doubt that is a quality heat treatment on that Malanika! CNY is right on the money with the difference between elemental V and actual carbides formed.
I don't own any so I probably won't make any content on it unless someone sends a knife to me. I think it's a really great option in the stainless steel world. I think slightly displaced by Magnacut but it possibly would be preferred by those sharpening with non-diamond abrasives.
I bought the Manix 2 LW in SPY27 as my summertime beater and I am very pleased with edge retention and ease of sharpening. It comes up really nice and crisp on the stones and strops back easily.
What do you think is an ideal steel for a harder use knife like the shaman? I already have 15v for crazy edge retention but I’m looking for something that still holds an edge very well but has considerably more toughness to stand up to harder use. Thanks!
What I’d be looking for in a Shaman is edge stability over what many consider toughness. However they can sometimes be closely related but often hardness is sacrificed for increased toughness when stability is what is wanted. Reason I say that is the shaman is pretty overbuilt with thick blade stock and behind edge geometry. That all said I’d recommend high hardness 4V, Cruwear or Magnacut if you want stainless steel
@@EngineersPerspective701In your experience, were the actual offerings of cruwear or 4v for the shaman a better steel? There’s only been a few sprints and exclusives in these steels, but I have a chance to buy the knife joker exclusive with cruwear dlc blade. You think I should go for that or try to find a st nicks exclusive in 4v? Thanks for the advice!
Truthfully I’m not sure what heat treat they are doing on Cruwear for the knife joker exclusive. IF it’s the same as they’ve been doing on their CruCarta shamans then it would be great. If it’s more like the older heat treats they did then probably pass even though they were still good performers. You’ll just have to look around forums and RUclips to see what hardness other exclusives have been running. If ~63-64HRc then it’s good to go! However in all scenarios the St. Nicks 4V is going to be the better choice. Same if not higher hardness, all vanadium carbides, takes a SICK edge!
@@EngineersPerspective701You think the 4v is well suited to the harder use of the shaman? Any advantages to Cruwear over 4v from your experience? Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience with me!
@@cody3078 What are you planning on doing with it? The knife is so beefy already that it doesn't need a super tough steel to be "tough" overall. That said 4V is almost as good as it gets for toughness at that high hardness and level of edge retention. If the Cruwear has a solid heat treat, you will not notice the difference between it and 4V is my guess.
I can't speak for him, but I don't like it because the screws back out unless fairly heavily loctited and they can have a huge effect on the action if you torque them down too much. It also seems to contribute to lock stick, although not to any significant degree. Basically, just another thing to go wrong. I even made a floating stop pin for my pm2 and it's been awesome. Ive noticed that it rotates pretty freely (floating... Go figure, right?) so it spreads the wear across the entire thing as opposed to any single spot. That may end up being an issue long term, but I really don't expect it to be. First world problems, of course.
@@EngineersPerspective701 I see. I've never had a problem with my stop pins, free floating or screwed. I tighten the crap out of the clip side screw into the stop pin, and I loctite the show side. Sometimes it's a little adjustment on that show side screw, but nothing too finicky.
@@ZPositive I’ve never really had much of an issue either other than having the screws back out and needing loctite is all. Just one less thing to think about with the stepped one!
@@EngineersPerspective701 I have been trying to cut back on my knife buying but I really want a native 5 and a chief just to round out my collection I have 2 shaman that I can use for trade, but thanks for your opinion it helps
So I go 320 grit (2) passes, 600 grit (2) passes, 800 grit (2) passes, ceramic hone (2) passes and then I finish with a leather strop coated in chromium oxide. That’s how I sharpen my Kizer Gemini in 4v. So I have been handling knives for about 25 years and the new generation of knife enthusiast have really become blade steel snobs. The industry, whether it be Crucible or Bohler or some other company is constantly pushing the envelope in steel technology and you see all these varieties of steel, some very close in composition to the other just popping up all the time. I am still a firm believer that most of your blade steel is a product of how much time and effort the manufacturer puts into proper and consistent heat treat. A good example is Spyderco, I have an old ambitious Spyderco in 8cr13mov and it has been an absolute tank. I saw a RUclips video where a guy does a legitimate HRC test on that exact same knife and his 8cr13mov blade tested to almost 62 hrc. Along with that he also tested for edge retention. He took (2) Spydercos one in 8cr13mov and another one in S30V and both of them cut 450 pieces of cactus rope while still being able to slice paper. I have a Benchmade 940 in S30V that is very difficult to sharpen for some reason and it seems like it is just hard as hell. A lot of these good quality stainless steels and tool steels when properly heat treated are probably more than capable of handling what 99.9% of users are going to put them through. So there’s my two cents on the steel insanity that has swept over the industry.
I agree. In terms of a high performance blade most people will love any steel that has a top notch heat treatment. The trouble with factory made knives is finding consistent and quality heat treatment!
That all said. The best 8Cr13MoV on the planet will not hold a candle to a decent K390. There is a lot more to edge retention than just slicing paper too.
Steel snobs, yes but it's all about what a person wants to get out of their tools or hobby.
I just bought one of these in the secondary and I'm gonna put some AWT scales on it! I can't wait.
Nice score bro!
@@EngineersPerspective701 only cost me 120 shipped, lnib!
Just got my first DLC 4V blade; a St. Nick’s Manix2 XL. It’s my first Manix2, (of any kind), as well.
Fantastic knife. Love the color way and the size. It’s a slicier hard use option than my Shamen.
Awesome! 4V is great and so is the manix
How's that thing in your pocket? I really want the XL but I don't think I will EDC it.
@@gregoryblake3377 It’s a big damn knife, no way around it. The YoJumbo, Military, and especially the Native Chief are all a bit more pleasant in the pocket, (and have similarly sized blades). That said; the XL is the Spyderco I’d take to the woods. It’s a very capable cutting tool for all general tasks, as well as some harder use, (if necessary). The exceptionally high strength of the caged ball bearing lock helps with that.
@@sonofliberty78 thanks for the info I will take everything you said into consideration.
Soon as you drank your coffee I left the video
😂
Excellent description and explanations. Thanks buddy 🙋♂️🍺
Appreciate it!
Yo... It looks like you raided my knife collection : ) My most carried blades are spot on what you seem to prefer. K390, and the rest of the Hard / Tough steel out there. The only exception is M390 just wished they would run the steel harder... Thanks for the video. : )
Great minds think alike! The M390 para 3 is the only one I really enjoy because it’s definitely up there in hardness but too bad that practically makes it a unicorn!
So one thing about these 5% chromium steels. (like most of the pm cold work tool steels, k390, the v series, vanadis 4/8) and the high speed steels, though possibly to a lesser extent.
Is the chromium actually can help with the corrosion resistance to a surprising extent. But, that's only when they are tempered in the 300-400 range, rather than in the secondary hardening range.
The thing is, you just wont see production companies bothering to temper them down there 99% of the time. Because it means they can overheat, and soften the blades easier.
But you can even potentially reach higher hardnesses, while keeping the the toughness actually higher than you expect.
Anyway. Yeah, these are definitely some nice steels, all of the v steels are great for different applications, with 10v being my favorite for edc, and in the kitchen.
Great note!
For high hardness, I feel like spyderco is the only game in town for production knives.
I wonder if spyderco is going to dial up the hardness on regular production magna-cut based on feedback from people who got the mules. Across the board it would seem that most folks are saying that it could do with being a but harder than 62.
Spyderco is old reliable!
They are really limited by factory heat treat processes for Magnacut so they can only go so high. I think they did a great job with it honestly just that it’s not 100% for me because I live in a harder, higher carbide world. For most people though it’s going to be a leap forward
@@EngineersPerspective701 I guess it all depends if they use cryo or a freezer after their vacuum furnace heat treat. Even a commercial freezer could bring up the hardness.
@@nandayane I guarantee they go subzero for magancut. There’s a video out there where Eric says they go subzero on their 8Cr13MoV so they never hold back!
With time it’ll probably get dialed in and we haven’t even seen their production runs of it yet so we’ll just have to wait and see!
@@EngineersPerspective701 if they are going subzero 63-64 should be no issue then. I think Larrin was able to get around 63-64 range with vacuum furnaces and cryo. I am hoping that they run their production harder than their mules.
@@nandayane the mule average was 62.7HRc so I’m guessing 63 was the target hardness. Keep in mind that according to the spec sheet which does not guarantee anything 64HRc is the MAX.
Rarely is it ever easy or simple to push things. I really do hope they get a 63.5HRc average while maintaining low retained austenite and a solid grain structure.
I really, really like this model…which is saying something because I’m not a fan of DLC. It just *works* for this one, though…especially with 4v which is a beautiful steel. My favorite steels will all start to whittle hair between 4-8 microns and 4v does this without breaking a sweat.
Such a great model. I used it a bunch when tearing out our carpet and it was plenty strong. Love how 4V sharpens.
Like CPM-3V, CPM-4V is an excellent fixed-blade steel.
For sure!
I like spyderco m390 whatever the 22% carbide volume. In some ways Rex reminds me of d2.
The 4v has vanadium carbides, the best of the carbides.
Reminiscent of a decent D2 like benchmade used to do. High front end sharpness holding but I don't remember what the D2 working edge was like.
Gotta love the VC
Hmm, maybe the ease of sharpening is due to finer carbides, finer than the abrasive grit, since you're not grinding down chunky enriched Cr carbides. (Following the "Science of Sharp" findings showing that carbides are cut rather than scooped out during sharpening).
Very possible! My guess is that it's strongest contributors are low austenite stabilizing chemistry and high hardness gives a very nice microstructure that doesn't want to hold onto a burr instead really wanting to form a fine, clean edge. I believe a person mostly notices the small microstructure in the final edge that comes up super fine!
Great video man, I really want to try some high hardness 4v. Had a 62hrc malanika which was good but not pushing that performance. Thought 4v was closer to 4% vanadium in composition?
It is 4% by weight, but vanadium carbide percentage isn't the same as vanadium content by weight.
The hardness is going to make a big difference but no doubt that is a quality heat treatment on that Malanika!
CNY is right on the money with the difference between elemental V and actual carbides formed.
Will you record something about the Para 3 Lightweight CPM SPY27 knife?
is this steel remarkable...?
I don't own any so I probably won't make any content on it unless someone sends a knife to me. I think it's a really great option in the stainless steel world. I think slightly displaced by Magnacut but it possibly would be preferred by those sharpening with non-diamond abrasives.
I bought the Manix 2 LW in SPY27 as my summertime beater and I am very pleased with edge retention and ease of sharpening. It comes up really nice and crisp on the stones and strops back easily.
What do you think is an ideal steel for a harder use knife like the shaman? I already have 15v for crazy edge retention but I’m looking for something that still holds an edge very well but has considerably more toughness to stand up to harder use. Thanks!
What I’d be looking for in a Shaman is edge stability over what many consider toughness. However they can sometimes be closely related but often hardness is sacrificed for increased toughness when stability is what is wanted.
Reason I say that is the shaman is pretty overbuilt with thick blade stock and behind edge geometry.
That all said I’d recommend high hardness 4V, Cruwear or Magnacut if you want stainless steel
@@EngineersPerspective701In your experience, were the actual offerings of cruwear or 4v for the shaman a better steel? There’s only been a few sprints and exclusives in these steels, but I have a chance to buy the knife joker exclusive with cruwear dlc blade. You think I should go for that or try to find a st nicks exclusive in 4v? Thanks for the advice!
Truthfully I’m not sure what heat treat they are doing on Cruwear for the knife joker exclusive. IF it’s the same as they’ve been doing on their CruCarta shamans then it would be great. If it’s more like the older heat treats they did then probably pass even though they were still good performers. You’ll just have to look around forums and RUclips to see what hardness other exclusives have been running. If ~63-64HRc then it’s good to go!
However in all scenarios the St. Nicks 4V is going to be the better choice. Same if not higher hardness, all vanadium carbides, takes a SICK edge!
@@EngineersPerspective701You think the 4v is well suited to the harder use of the shaman? Any advantages to Cruwear over 4v from your experience? Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience with me!
@@cody3078 What are you planning on doing with it? The knife is so beefy already that it doesn't need a super tough steel to be "tough" overall.
That said 4V is almost as good as it gets for toughness at that high hardness and level of edge retention. If the Cruwear has a solid heat treat, you will not notice the difference between it and 4V is my guess.
Why don't you like the screwed stop pin?
I can't speak for him, but I don't like it because the screws back out unless fairly heavily loctited and they can have a huge effect on the action if you torque them down too much. It also seems to contribute to lock stick, although not to any significant degree. Basically, just another thing to go wrong.
I even made a floating stop pin for my pm2 and it's been awesome. Ive noticed that it rotates pretty freely (floating... Go figure, right?) so it spreads the wear across the entire thing as opposed to any single spot. That may end up being an issue long term, but I really don't expect it to be.
First world problems, of course.
Sort of what CNY said. Mainly it’s just less to fiddle with!
@@EngineersPerspective701 I see. I've never had a problem with my stop pins, free floating or screwed. I tighten the crap out of the clip side screw into the stop pin, and I loctite the show side. Sometimes it's a little adjustment on that show side screw, but nothing too finicky.
@@ZPositive I’ve never really had much of an issue either other than having the screws back out and needing loctite is all. Just one less thing to think about with the stepped one!
How do you rank the native 5 against the PM3 ?
Love both but I'd personally choose the native 5 over the PM3.
@@EngineersPerspective701 I have been trying to cut back on my knife buying but I really want a native 5 and a chief just to round out my collection I have 2 shaman that I can use for trade, but thanks for your opinion it helps