Love you Jonah! And I love & benefit greatly from the guests, content & creators at Ward Radio! Thanks for all that you guys do to strengthen our faith & build up the Kingdom! 🙏🔥👑
I think about this and feel it as well. It truly is heart breaking but surely shows their spiritual strength , their love for Heavenly Father and our Savior, Jesus Christ.
I loved every bit of this show. I am thrilled that there is now real proof of what Joseph Smith Jr. looked like it ends a huge mystery for me. He really was the man for the restoration.
Moroni sure predicted the Internet accurately: "He said his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people” All these Antis coming in here talking smack about Joseph Smith are making Moroni's prediction become very very true.
I know the guy who owned Brigham Youngs coffin cane as of about 3 years ago and likely still does. He told a group of us the story of how, while in his ownership, it was used to heal someone!
There are some in my extended family who have a cain, a lock of hair, and it has been a source of great contentions in the family. I have tried to get them to donate the cain along with the locket of hair to the church. It's a sad story! However, the healing side of the cain is new to me, and maybe why, if asked to this day, they will deny their existence. Hopefully, my cousins will do the right thing.
I've done dirt work for 27 years, you can see and feel a difference between dirt that has been excavated. Even with modern hydraulic excavators, you can see and feel a difference in the density of the dirt.
1:05:58 I worked in McComb, Illinois and visited Cartage Jail. For some reason I had the impression or thought “if the bronze statue was an accurate description.” Thank you for this.
Totally. This is why I listen to ward radio and not watch. RUclips subscription is the best as it allows me to turn off the screen and work. Turn it on when I want to see something and then resume just listening. Best of luck!
I would like to look at the pictures while they are talking, not have to pause the video for a good look. Sometimes the picture was up for so short a time it was hard even to pause on it!
The Scannell descendant had no relation to Joseph Smith, there is no provenance in that there is no evidence it was ever near the sons of the Prophet, who owned it and were the one's talking about a daguerreotype. The chin is too flat, Joseph's chin was rounded per the mask and artwork, Scannell kid has FLAT, very flat cheekbones, per the artwork and death mask Joseph Smith has very high pronounced cheekbones. They used photoanthropometry and his team was a cardiologist, ENT doctor, and allergy doctor who were biased and using a technique not used by forensics, they did not use correct techniques. The daguerreotype was made in the 1950s. The background does not match Lucian Fosters background or lighting style but later style.
My brother has copies of the death masks. He got them from an artist who got copies from LDS HQ for a special project he was working on. They are awesome to look at. Hit me up next time you are in Utah, we can go to my brother's house and see them.
I have worked with Forensic Anthropologists specialized in identifying people in photographs and they are seeking to analyze this exact daguerreotype, that said, I don't know if they are making progress or not, they were given contact information, but the Community of Christ owns this, if they sold it to Tracy that would be newsworthy, but it was never owned by the direct descendants of Joseph Smith and the donator was not a relative of Joseph Smith's whatsoever and never lived near them. Experts use various techniques, photoanthropomtry is not one of them and the those I know actually worked with the FBI, Tracy never worked with someone who was working with the FBI and he is NOT an expert by any stretch of the imagination. Shannon is using the death mask from an above angle, the Scannel kids was NOT Photographed from above; thus making chin APPEAR to be smaller, nose tip lower, but Joseph Smith's nose tip was higher (important to note in Hyrum Smith his nose tip is so low you can hardly see his nostrils, and his real forward facing painting showed a much larger nose than any alleged image (Hyrum is NOT the Larsen Locket)). The chin in the Scannell kid is flat, Joseph Smith had a rounded chin, nose tip is too low to be Joseph, the actual unedited daguerreotype is so badly damaged it is hard to even see his eyes or shade of them, but the hair is hardly showing evidence of non-male patterned baldness, but normal 24 year old male patterned baldness, and the scar is not seen on the lips, which are too full and missing the right side being pulled up by the scars. The cheek bones are very flat in the Scannell daguerreotype, but the Forward Facing painting, done from life in 1842, shows high cheekbones. The Anthropological Review's analysis of an older man than this guy, but younger man than the Larsen Locket (so "just right" for age 38 in 1844 when Lucian Foster came to town, the man who Joseph Smith III said took his Father's daguerreotype). Only the Juvenile Instructor's CDV they bashed, in 2009, has the scar on the lips and the place where the hair was pulled out of his head, Tracy talked to me a while ago and is using my research now, but it's simply not there, no scar, nothing but normal 24 year old male patter baldness. The Smith family connection was not found, at least not to the Joseph Smith Family line, and no provenance. Using photoanthropometry debunks their "forensic analysis" as Forensics do NOT and have not ever universally used photoanthropometry, and Shannon does NOT know this, despite me trying to tell him this, as he is has NEVER worked in forensics and is now off my list of respectable men for making false claims. However the CDV REAL forensic scientists believe is likely Joseph Smith, was printed in the same time and where the sons of Joseph Smith lived and Traveled, in Newark Illinois, in Kendall County and Jospeh Smith III wrote about Newark in his memoirs, it was previously called Georgetown, until they got a Georgetown 200 miles due south of Chicago, but that is not a town he would have traveled through to get to La Salle in 1887, as he reports going through "Georgetown" and seeing some friends, which have been verified to be in Newark, Kendall County, Illinois, where the CDV was printed... and found in a Smith ID family album before march 30th, 2009, a "Mormon from California" was convinced of this being a Smith ID family album, they bought most of the thing before I bought the CDV (only two images left in 2017), now THAT my friends in Provenance! Joseph Smith III got lost coming south from Sandwhich Illinois in 1887, not until he got to Newark did he know where he was again! He was suddenly all familiar and again, he KNEW people in Newark! He was the one who had the daguerreotype, the snobbery is INSANE to ignore this photograph!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you for giving us this additional information. I found some of his comparisons difficult. To see and began to wonder if I just count see the scar on his lip and the other points he listed. In the end it doesn’t matter what he looked like but it sure would be nice to know.
@@strengthenyourroots3161 Thank you, if only they would be nice and respond with an offer, but in the end it is for the best, I would have trouble talking on their wave length, and would not enjoy it I am sure, I am not a loud person whatsoever or outgoing, but THANK YOU for the compliment!!
I think that the picture shown by Shannon is Joseph. I also would love to have some new work done with modern state of the art tools. Thanks for producing interesting high quality faith promoting information and material. P.S. I just got my Ward Radio T-Shirt and it fits great!
As a person with light hair and eyebrows, I have a hard time believing that this deguerro type is a younger Joseph when the hair and eyebrows are so very dark. Wasn’t Joseph supposed to have had like sandy blondish brown hair? It wouldn’t look that dark in a black and white image. It would look more like the other image that is supposedly Joseph (not the old couple on eBay, the other one).
I’d believe it was one of his kids before it’s him. Light hair doesn’t photograph black. If it were wet/greased, it would be a bit darker. But still not black.
I had this question also. But I wouldn't doubt if his hair got darker as he got older. And remember daguerreotype is going to have a different look than photography.
I think the steel man of the opposing side would be this photo could have been of any young man in the 1800's! I mean what connects it directly to Joseph?
I know Hiram was shot in the face, but I didn't know Joseph was. Does that missing section indicate being shot in the face? When I was in Nauvoo last summer, I heard that the skull with that big missing section was Hiram.
Before the debate, I heard several of our friends from the media tell us Joe Biden is as sharp as he's ever been. The media would never lie to us. What is going on around here!?!
The Ezra Eagle prophecy appears to be in full swing after watching the debate and what the msm are starting to say about Biden. I don’t think he’s going to finish his term.
Wait… so Joseph, Hyrum and Emma are not in a consecrated grave? And the skulls were removed from the location they were originally buried and therefore not with the rest of the body? We need to get that together in a consecrated grave or consecrated the area they were buried in.
Hey could you guys show the pictures and slides faster? I almost got to actually comprehend what they were about. Show the speakers more, and the subject content less. Thanks!
When I see all the similar photos that claim to be Joseph Smith because they look like the death mask, I think people forget that he had brothers and they would all look similar. So these photos could be of them. Forensics such in this video, combined with descriptions would absolutely be necessary. I have a hard time embracing Shannon’s conclusion ONLY because I think we’re waiting to see one that has him in lighter coloring. I understand lack of modern technology affects the vintage photos outcome. In the photo with Oliver, the facial structure in that one does not seem consistent with the CAD conclusions though the coloring seems consistent with recorded descriptions. Maybe for our purposes, Shannon could enhance the coloring of his “Gerry(?)” photo for a “what if” view??? Please!! 😊
Totally. Actually felt it slightly rude Cardon kept pushing it. The guy also didn’t smile much at their comments lol. Poor guy wanted to get through his stuff.
I think that both of the photos look like they’re the same guy. Like print off the younger one and draw the curls, add the wrinkles. I am pretty sure from my opinion.
@wes2176 5 hours ago Moroni sure predicted the Internet accurately: "He said his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people” All these Antis coming in here talking smack about Joseph Smith are making Moroni's prediction become very very true. HEY WES.... I stick to HISTORICAL FACTS. And the "bad talk" about Joseph STARTED with his moneydigger partners who thought he cut them out. Joseph Smith left a trail of very pissed off people. After HIS Kirtland Bank Fraud people were REALLY angry at him....and that was when he was "acting" as a "Prophet." Just one example.
Have any of you ever watched the TV show Bones with Emily Deschanel and David Boreanaz ? Makaila Conlin (I think that's her name) played Angela who had a nifty way of taking the skulls dimensions and bone structure and stuff, and finding out what the person looked like. And that show was based off real life experiences of a forensic anthropologist, so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they actually did find out what he looks like. Buuuut, I have a few questions. When our bodies are restored to their perfect and proper frame, does that mean we'll all have our bodies as teenagers or young adults? Men have been considered to reach physical maturity at 17 or 18 right? What about women? I am curious to know what I'll look like when my mortal life is over and I am made immortal. Teenager? Twenties? Will we want to eat food? If the lion lays with the lamb, and both eat straw... what about what people will eat? Does that mean no more ribeye or hamburgers? Because I really am grateful for and enjoy food!
Isbell also use to believe that Phil Davis was a reincarnated servant led by a reincarnated Joseph Smith. Isbell is led by every wind of doctrine from anyone who flatters him.
So my question is, did he forensically attempt to apply the death mask and those points of facial features on the older picture of what some think is Joseph Smith also, just like he did to the younger picture? I'm not talking about the man in the couples picture... I'm talking about the single older picture that the host kept pushing in jest. Look at their 2 hairline just above his forehead... they are the same. I'm wondering if that is indeed an older picture of Joseph Smith right before he passed and the other picture of him when he was younger. Could they be 2 pictures of the same man at different ages? I would love to hear his thoughts on this.
This promo shows an enhanced image of the Scannel daguerreotype. The actual daguerreotype image is very 1:40 blurry and tarnished. And all of his purported skull evidence is bogus.
I do not think the dagarotype from recent game is Joseph. This image just looks too young. Joseph went through so much so I think he would have aged more from all of the stress.
Well, he used computers, talked to fbi people and stuff. he sure seemed like he knew alot. but, who knows. be nice if we could go back in time and try to take a picture of him. what would Joseph think of a cell phone lol i would like to show him Gospel Library i dunno. he was in the 1800s probally not alot of good options for photos. i think i am with Cardin on Joseph's forgiveness he had Jesus kind of forgivenness there.
It is deeply regrettable that Cardon dared to equate these illustrious Chadian engineers with the feeble, cowardly proponents of the "stop the spread" movement. Such a comparison is utterly baseless. Brother Hands has commendably upheld his duty, and may God bless him and all those who have dedicated themselves to preserving the resting places of the most revered men of every era since the time of Jesus Christ.
This may be the case, but what I recall is that when watching the video after brother Hands was mentioned to be an engineer and they could detect disturbed soil, Cardon began to compare him to the anti social pandemic people. I might have been mistaken, but that is what I recall.
The chin is different though. And the guy looks about 12. What did he loook like in later yrs. So if this is the image of him with a pot belly it can’t be of him in later yrs. I think the daguerreotype is really him too
His nose was noticeably WIDER than in the "darreotype photo" type of image, (or however the darr word is spelled,) and the video's "darr photo" image makes his shoulders look much smaller and weaker than EVERYone who knew him said he was, who ALL said he was tall, big and strong, physically. THIS was a boy and man who worked long hours, daily, in rough 'n' tough Frontier America! He had MUSCLE in his shoulders, not a smaller "shoulder frame area" like is in that image, of who appears to be more of an upper class "city boy." Also, hundreds of thousands of men's bodies were buried in the Civil War, and way too large a Percentage of their bodies wasn't correctly identified before these final burials. Because 1) 1800s darr photos in businesses' clerical records, and because 2) 1800s burials, both, had so MANY identification losses, it seems to me to be Common Sense that any "lost identity images" in darr photos will NEVER, (during Mortality before the Second Coming,) be positively assigned to the correct name, GIVEN we had too much 1800s chaos in these areas. Even the 1800s American census records seem to have had large gaps in them. And : no one who saw the Prophet daily or often, in person, NO one describing his physical appearance ever mentions how asymmetrical his eyebrows looked, as I recall as someone having read many dozens, if not hundreds, of these descriptions ; but that darr image shows, VERY noticeably, a man with very assymetrical eyebrows! And when I try to "see" his "fine" oval shaped forehead of the Death Mask "INTO" that darr photo image, it takes a difficult STRETCH of my imagination... ...instead of easily, NATURALLY conforming to the ACTUAL visual image of the Death Mask... ...so I, finally, gave up! Besides that, the death mask IS an originally three-dimensional record, an image that makes all that EXTRA skull and computer work unnecessary, since we DO HAVE the death mask : on the other hand, ACCESS to the skulls of Hyrum and Joseph "came and went" quickly. Finally, Common Sense points to there being, apparently-?, some record of the prophet having his skull bumps analyzed and of his saying-?, he doubted that new science had much validity. Yet, somehow-?, we in Common Sense are asked to believe he did NOT leave ANY record of his saying he visited a business of new technology to have an image of his face & upper body created? ? REALLY, we're supposed to believe he would be THAT casual about the matter of creating an image of himself? WHY, in soon following years, did he pose for at least one or two portraits while knowing, (as he said, constantly and repeatedly,) that his Early death was impending, if he didn't WANT to leave us SOME sort of record of his physical likeness, and yet, IF there WERE a more "high-tech" version of his likeness, WHY would he, in his human NATURE, have left NO mention of it? He left a HUGE, overwhelmingly large "record" of OTHER doings in his life... I'd guess there are MILLIONS of artifacts proving the details of his lifetime! Why would he omit ONE key detail, (a visual, two-dimensional image,) in any mentions of his history, journals, diaries and so forth??? Or : WHY (the same question) regarding records of memories of his friends and family members? ? WHY did they TAKE a Death Mask, if NO one WANTED to preserve his likeness IN THE VERY BEST WAYS THEY WERE CAPABLE? Common SENSE about Human NATURE about people's motives of Love to preserve memories, with physical links, to one's OBJECT of love, Common Sense POINTS to there being NO "darr photo" type of image of his face in existence after his death! THAT Common Sense about Human Nature stands out even MORE than the former observations of physical disparities between images, (listed above.) Besides that point, I don't believe the expense involved in creating multiple copies of "Wanted : Dead or Alive" posters had the technology to use copies of "darr photo" images yet, EITHER. If he WERE hiding his image and HOW his Appearance was, he wouldn't have started his presidential campaign, not long before his death. He wouldn't have been incredibly charismatic and wouldn't have been traveling so much in his life, meeting (and often warmly greeting) hundreds of thousands of people. His life would have been more like that of a hermit. He WANTED his divine, genuine messages from the Lord and his identity to be known, and he WANTED to let people get a chance to KNOW him, and know what a GENUINELY caring man he was about ALL children of God. He reached OUT to people, by NATURE.
"Forensics" in the loosest sense. I thought this daguerreotype was successfully put to rest years ago. It's a case of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, and they have to claim the hole is wrong, not the peg. Joseph and Hyrum's skulls were pretty well documented and researched, and this isn't comparing it to the correct skull. The daguerreotype of Joseph, IF a legit one exists, would have been taken in 1844 a few months before the martyrdom. Does this kid look 38? The distance the photo of the mask was taken that they are comparing it to will cause perspective distortion, so it needs to be compared at a similar distance. Much of the alignment of features is portrait art 101. Many of the marks would line up across many faces. The eye sockets are too small, his bottom lip fold is near non existent, and the fat under his bottom lip is too large. I would expect the tie to be white, similar to the Maudsley portraits, and just because the kid has a high hairline doesn't mean he was tarred and feathered. I have that hairline. Can confirm I wasn't tarred and feathered.
Shannon never claimed the pic is of Joseph at 38, but rather likely at 33. Why not 1839? why would a pic have to have been taken in 1844? that doesn't make sense to me. the distance issue and distortion issue was guarded against via anchoring and aspect ratio freezing in photoshop. "Portrait art 101" alignment features argument is interesting, but I would liken it to something like bite mark forensics--really good but not perfect. as for the bite and lip fold issue..a death mask is taken when the body is laying down, with the jaw bone held loosely rather than how it would look when living and upright. so a death mask is NOT a perfect representation of what a person looks like. it would always be slightly off but mostly accurate. The hair issue is interesting and a bit inconclusive. you also need to recognize that the last five years of his life were VERY stressful, so babyface fat could very easily have been lost over that time. your worst argument is the tie. really? the tie would be white?! silly. tie color is irrelevant. Shannon also said he was 95-98% sure. not 100% He also said that he would like to re-do the analysis with better tools of today. I think the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon was put to rest many years ago too... but it just keeps debunking Anachronisms year after year. Is this a pic of Joseph? I dont' know, but I hope so. would be cool.
@@murdog5253 - Legit concerns and questions. It's not like this stuff is common knowledge. "Why not in 1839?" - Because you couldn't just go to D.C. and walk into a daguerreotype studio for a portrait. In August of 1839 France got the rights to the Daguerreotype and gave it to the world. Later that year the first known portrait, a self-portrait, was taken in Philadelphia by Robert Cornelius. This would have been a feat of patience since the first daguerrotype process took about 20 minutes of still exposure. It was mostly used for still images of scenery. You didn't see portraits regularly done until the process was much faster around 1841 or 1842. John Quincy Adams was the first famous American to have a daguerreotype done in 1843. Am I to believe that Joseph went to D.C. in 1839, when the tech was new and unrefined, and was one of the first Americans to ever get a portrait, 4 years before a U.S. President? It's a loose theory that holds little water. You think there would be more of a buzz about it. Certainly a journal entry from someone? There is no documentation that one was ever taken of the Prophet, except in a memory of his son, recalled nearly 50 years after it would have been taken, when JS3 was 11. That would be 1844. Feasible because Lucian Foster lived in Nauvoo that year and promoted a daguerreotype studio a month after Joseph's death. There was plenty of buzz around the Sutcliffe Maudsley portraits and a David Rogers painting back then. Speaking of Maudsley, look up his process. His profile of Joseph would be strikingly accurate. The profile of the death mask lines up perfectly, indicating no jacked up jaw for the mask. There would be differences, but not significant enough to look like the guy in this image, and if so, then what do you really have to do forensics against? Lining up dots and lines would be pointless unless it was a reliable source. Ya, the hair issue is circumstantial, but I don't buy it here. But the tie... I can see why it would be considered silly, but I think it's a decent argument, yet one I could let go of easily. But in the life portraits we have of him, he was seen in a white tie. Why? Cultural norms back then had some strict standards for formal portraits, and white ties often signified a certain high social status, as well as clergy. Why put Joseph in a white tie and Hyrum in a black tie? Joseph got another one done in his military gear. They dressed the part for portraits. The only exception might be if it was less formal, like passing by a random studio in 1839 in D.C., and while not prepared for a formal portrait... but I think that theory is easily debunked.
@@cheezedaze That was a long answer, and you certainly posed some history questions that I don't know much about...But, you can't just say that "you couldn't walk into a daguerreotype studio..." Are you saying that a circumstantial opportunity couldn't have happened? to me, that is an agenda based argument. circumstantial miracles happen all the time. maybe someone cancelled. maybe someone was unavoidably detained, and there was an opportunity and an available slide. I don't know. but it's possible, and when Joseph Smith is involved, sometimes the IMPOSSIBLE was common place. Are you also telling me that Joseph Smith wouldn't have taken it as a challenge of personal control to sit still for 20 min? I can totally see it. Joseph had surgery without the "social norm" of the day to get drunk first! The fact that it's a possibility is the only requirement with the type of analysis Shannon was doing. If the opportunity for the image to be taken was circumstantial, That is another reason that the black tie makes sense. unplanned spontaneous opportunity would mean to do that process with whatever he had on. You said, "Am I to believe that Joseph went to D.C. in 1839, when the tech was new and unrefined, and was one of the first Americans to ever get a portrait, 4 years before a U.S. President? It's a loose theory that holds little water." I couldn't disagree more. why not? Are you telling me that the grand forces of the universe couldn't arrange something like this? I don't even have a problem with Joseph being the very first portrait. I can even see the operator telling Joseph that he doesn't do portraits because it's too hard and joseph saying "I can do it. Let's give it a go!". Plus, the image certainly looks unrefined and unpolished. I don't have a dog in this hunt, and plausability, implausability, unlikely, and social norms of the day are not good arguments when it comes to something like this. Additionally, Shannon doesn't seem to care about whether the image is or isn't Joseph, and said many times in this episode that he would like to do it all again with more modern tech. I hope he does. If you are so certain about your points, I would say let's get you on the show with Shannon, and have the two of you go through and debunk each other. I simply hope that there is an authentic image. I don't claim to know this is Joseph, but to me it's the best one I have seen. If it is authentically Joseph, great. If not, no matter. Having an image of the prophet of the restoration is not a testimony builder. frankly it doesn't matter a hill of beans. would just be nice to have.
@@murdog5253 The kid has dark eyes, as in not likely to be blue or green, his chin is very flat, tip of the nose is too low, Joseph's nose tip was higher, Hyrum's was lower (thus he is not the locket man). The Scannel daguerreotype has no provenance, meaning it cannot be traced to the descendants of Joseph Smith's location whatsoever, but 1840s Illinois Man is linked to a city that Joseph Smith III wrote about having friends in (in Newark Illinois, when he lived in Plano, Illinois in the 1860s, when this CDV was copied from a daguerreotype), meaning a better matching image, with little details in the eyebrows matching, the right thickness, left brow thin and scarred, right brow thicker and not as dark as the scannel kid, a nose that is large, larger than the scannel kid and the locket man, scars that actually ARE on the lips of this man Forensic Anthropologists have supported as likely being Joseph Smith, on the right side, very much an indent, NOT at all seen in the Scannel kid, sketched by artwork done by Maudsley, not at the far left corner, but slightly more inward, and the statement about the hair being pulled out, 1840s Illinois Man actually has less hair on the SIDE of the LEFT side of his head, that is definitely NOT male pattern baldness, but baldness this man with hair actually brush straight forward is obviously combing his hair in a part, to that side, and forward to HIDE.
I have a photograph of Joseph Smith and he had eyebrows. Your digital work wasn't bad, but you missed his eyebrows, they are seen on the death mask, and more than two forensic anthropologists have been given permission to write about and analyze it and other projects are in the works. 1840s Illinois Man is the ONLY possible image linked to the right place, in the right time, with Joseph Smith III. I recently realized the town it was printed in, Newark, Illinois- WAS called Georgetown for a time, there is another Georgetown 200 miles due south of Chicago, but in the context of Joseph Smith III traveling between Plano and La Salle, Illinois, only Newark/"Georgetown" makes sense to any sane human, as being the town he traveled through, A LOT, mentioning a friend Havenhill, census records show he likely performed the wedding of their daughter, they were from Newark, Illinois in other documents, and Joseph Smith III is saying they are from the village of Georgetown. So, while the Scannel kid has no links to being in the same city as the descendants of Joseph Smith and the Locket Man has links only verified to 1992, this CDV has links to the 1860s, to a town ten Miles away from Joseph Smith III, a town he traveled through and had friends in, to visit Bertha Madison Smith's family (she was from La Salle), matches the lighting and background of the most likely images taken by Lucian Rose Foster: The oldest image of Phoebe Woodruff (side lighting and lighting from below, lamp seen on the table) and Emma's 1845 daguerrotype (ALSO copied on to a CDV in the 1860s and the CDV is the only viable image of her in 1845, not the blackened daguerreotype), which shows a SHORT unlevel background, also seen in my CDV. That artwork shows all or any confusing of the eyebrows, face shape, non issue once I had a high resolution copy of the only forward facing painting. Oh, and you ought to listen to Lach Mackay's Dec. 2023 presentation with the Community of Christ Church, saying they had paid (as they often do) Bioarcheologists to analyze the photographs of the skulls, of Jospeh and Hyrum Smith, one they saw what I see is beyond obvious, Hyrum's brow bone shape matches the one buried as Joseph (way too unique seen on his death mask), AND they saw deformities of the leg bone in the bones buried as Hyrum Smith- consistent with the illness and surgery, even arthritis of the left hip, Dr. Van de Graff saw all this as well, a total of 8 doctors AGREE, the skulls were misidentified in 1928. Go to google scholar and look up photoanthropometry, you sound like you kinda understand the basic points, but it's what Curtis and Dee Jay used, he used anthropometry to make his sculptures, it is debunk and unuseful, except in the case Dr. Teghan Lucas has said, if you're trying ot get the height of a criminal standing by a light on a street, you can get an approximate height. There are so many lies being said about me and those that I work with, just know, someone... a particular someone is not even accurately quoting our paper and making bold claims with only assumptions, not knowing who wrote xyz, assuming someone did... there is a liar out there, and it isn' me. I've been attacked in ways you wouldn't believe, probably not until the day of Judgement, but I am an honest girl and the man who sold me my CDV never half of what I've found out and has an 8 year digital footprint, he isn't a Hoffman, with how much he wanted hundreds of thousands, and didn't make the connection of Newark being close to the Joseph Smith III, or that Bibbins was a name known by Emma Smith and his Father KNEW her (100% true, even J.S. Bibbins of Newark Illinois is noted in his obituary, linking him directly to a biography that links the ministers to Emma Smith herself). I would be picky who I facetime with and trust... Lies were said about Shannon Tracy as well. Some angry people in OOTAH.
@@topazblahblah I have this innate ability to recognize faces. I frequently see actors on screen that I recognize from other shows filmed decades apart and I check their imdb to confirm my skills. doubtless you have a similar skill. I was recently watching "Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger" I told myself "I know that is the DR. Quinn actress and sure enough. I've seen josephs death mask. This looks like a different person.
@@topazblahblah Scannel kid's nose tip is too low, more like Hyrum's but not Hyrum, his lips are shaped differently and the scar he mentions is no where to be found whatsoever, but is found on my image of Joseph Smith, and his chin is completely different- flat poofy below his mouth, FLAT cheeks- Joseph Smith Had high cheek bones in the forward facing painting, the death mask, and he has too much hair, only normal male pattern baldness, but my CDV shows that ripped out hair that is NOT explained by male pattern Baldness whatsoever.
But you’ll don’t worship JS? Yeah, right! How can you say you’re Christian with the number of theories within your doctrine & history? I pray you see the light.
Just became a member, I love this show. It helps me deepen my faith and challenge my understanding. Grateful!
Awesome! We love it!
Love you Jonah! And I love & benefit greatly from the guests, content & creators at Ward Radio!
Thanks for all that you guys do to strengthen our faith & build up the Kingdom! 🙏🔥👑
Welcome to the family!
Welcome to the wings of Jesus Christ he covers you in our embrace
It breaks my heart knowing what the founding members of our church went through for their love of Heavenly Father 💔
I think about this and feel it as well. It truly is heart breaking but surely shows their spiritual strength , their love for Heavenly Father and our Savior, Jesus Christ.
Amen, I have incredible respect for these devoted saints 🙏🏼
I loved every bit of this show. I am thrilled that there is now real proof of what Joseph Smith Jr. looked like it ends a huge mystery for me. He really was the man for the restoration.
Ward Radio, Tim Ballard’s case was dismissed… we need some updated comment in a few weeks if the other cases get dismissed.
Moroni sure predicted the Internet accurately:
"He said his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people”
All these Antis coming in here talking smack about Joseph Smith are making Moroni's prediction become very very true.
Yet they are too ignorant and stupid to realize it.
I'm excited to see this episode.
I know the guy who owned Brigham Youngs coffin cane as of about 3 years ago and likely still does. He told a group of us the story of how, while in his ownership, it was used to heal someone!
Who else skips the first 3 minutes of every episode?
intro music is ghastly and the short excerpts are a pain
No way, the intros always get me pumped for the episode
@@LindyLime your cute 😉
Now this is awesome brothers
There are some in my extended family who have a cain, a lock of hair, and it has been a source of great contentions in the family. I have tried to get them to donate the cain along with the locket of hair to the church. It's a sad story! However, the healing side of the cain is new to me, and maybe why, if asked to this day, they will deny their existence. Hopefully, my cousins will do the right thing.
You mean "a cane".
If you meant a cain , then you would be referring to Able's murderer
@@FearlessFoundationautocorrect can be a “pane “ lol! Give the guy a break; we know what was meant.
Cool stuff but wish you would show the pictures longer
What a great guest!
Faith strengthening content!
I can't wait to watch this.
My grandparents had an ice house lined with saw dust. It kept ice all year.
I've done dirt work for 27 years, you can see and feel a difference between dirt that has been excavated. Even with modern hydraulic excavators, you can see and feel a difference in the density of the dirt.
Great show! Very convincing!
The canes are also good for warding off vampires, bogarts, and politicians.
1:05:58 I worked in McComb, Illinois and visited Cartage Jail. For some reason I had the impression or thought “if the bronze statue was an accurate description.” Thank you for this.
CARDON, you have got to chill with the camera switching ADHD. Please brother I'm begging.
Totally. This is why I listen to ward radio and not watch. RUclips subscription is the best as it allows me to turn off the screen and work. Turn it on when I want to see something and then resume just listening.
Best of luck!
I barely see the image and he switches it. Slow down BRO!!!
I would like to look at the pictures while they are talking, not have to pause the video for a good look. Sometimes the picture was up for so short a time it was hard even to pause on it!
Yep, this is the one I've thought for years now
The Scannell descendant had no relation to Joseph Smith, there is no provenance in that there is no evidence it was ever near the sons of the Prophet, who owned it and were the one's talking about a daguerreotype. The chin is too flat, Joseph's chin was rounded per the mask and artwork, Scannell kid has FLAT, very flat cheekbones, per the artwork and death mask Joseph Smith has very high pronounced cheekbones. They used photoanthropometry and his team was a cardiologist, ENT doctor, and allergy doctor who were biased and using a technique not used by forensics, they did not use correct techniques. The daguerreotype was made in the 1950s. The background does not match Lucian Fosters background or lighting style but later style.
I’m intrigued
Hail to the man up in here!
My brother has copies of the death masks. He got them from an artist who got copies from LDS HQ for a special project he was working on. They are awesome to look at. Hit me up next time you are in Utah, we can go to my brother's house and see them.
That was awesome. I think CSI couldn’t have done better. Until we have Joseph and Hyrum in front of us his likeness of Joseph is the best we’ve got!
I have worked with Forensic Anthropologists specialized in identifying people in photographs and they are seeking to analyze this exact daguerreotype, that said, I don't know if they are making progress or not, they were given contact information, but the Community of Christ owns this, if they sold it to Tracy that would be newsworthy, but it was never owned by the direct descendants of Joseph Smith and the donator was not a relative of Joseph Smith's whatsoever and never lived near them. Experts use various techniques, photoanthropomtry is not one of them and the those I know actually worked with the FBI, Tracy never worked with someone who was working with the FBI and he is NOT an expert by any stretch of the imagination.
Shannon is using the death mask from an above angle, the Scannel kids was NOT Photographed from above; thus making chin APPEAR to be smaller, nose tip lower, but Joseph Smith's nose tip was higher (important to note in Hyrum Smith his nose tip is so low you can hardly see his nostrils, and his real forward facing painting showed a much larger nose than any alleged image (Hyrum is NOT the Larsen Locket)).
The chin in the Scannell kid is flat, Joseph Smith had a rounded chin, nose tip is too low to be Joseph, the actual unedited daguerreotype is so badly damaged it is hard to even see his eyes or shade of them, but the hair is hardly showing evidence of non-male patterned baldness, but normal 24 year old male patterned baldness, and the scar is not seen on the lips, which are too full and missing the right side being pulled up by the scars.
The cheek bones are very flat in the Scannell daguerreotype, but the Forward Facing painting, done from life in 1842, shows high cheekbones. The Anthropological Review's analysis of an older man than this guy, but younger man than the Larsen Locket (so "just right" for age 38 in 1844 when Lucian Foster came to town, the man who Joseph Smith III said took his Father's daguerreotype). Only the Juvenile Instructor's CDV they bashed, in 2009, has the scar on the lips and the place where the hair was pulled out of his head, Tracy talked to me a while ago and is using my research now, but it's simply not there, no scar, nothing but normal 24 year old male patter baldness.
The Smith family connection was not found, at least not to the Joseph Smith Family line, and no provenance. Using photoanthropometry debunks their "forensic analysis" as Forensics do NOT and have not ever universally used photoanthropometry, and Shannon does NOT know this, despite me trying to tell him this, as he is has NEVER worked in forensics and is now off my list of respectable men for making false claims. However the CDV REAL forensic scientists believe is likely Joseph Smith, was printed in the same time and where the sons of Joseph Smith lived and Traveled, in Newark Illinois, in Kendall County and Jospeh Smith III wrote about Newark in his memoirs, it was previously called Georgetown, until they got a Georgetown 200 miles due south of Chicago, but that is not a town he would have traveled through to get to La Salle in 1887, as he reports going through "Georgetown" and seeing some friends, which have been verified to be in Newark, Kendall County, Illinois, where the CDV was printed... and found in a Smith ID family album before march 30th, 2009, a "Mormon from California" was convinced of this being a Smith ID family album, they bought most of the thing before I bought the CDV (only two images left in 2017), now THAT my friends in Provenance! Joseph Smith III got lost coming south from Sandwhich Illinois in 1887, not until he got to Newark did he know where he was again! He was suddenly all familiar and again, he KNEW people in Newark! He was the one who had the daguerreotype, the snobbery is INSANE to ignore this photograph!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you for giving us this additional information. I found some of his comparisons difficult. To see and began to wonder if I just count see the scar on his lip and the other points he listed. In the end it doesn’t matter what he looked like but it sure would be nice to know.
It would be interesting to have you on the show too.
@@strengthenyourroots3161 Thank you, if only they would be nice and respond with an offer, but in the end it is for the best, I would have trouble talking on their wave length, and would not enjoy it I am sure, I am not a loud person whatsoever or outgoing, but THANK YOU for the compliment!!
I think that the picture shown by Shannon is Joseph. I also would love to have some new work done with modern state of the art tools. Thanks for producing interesting high quality faith promoting information and material. P.S. I just got my Ward Radio T-Shirt and it fits great!
Same, same, and I need to get mine.
I enjoyed every minute of this even if Cardon kept trying to hurry Shannon up. Loved it.
As a person with light hair and eyebrows, I have a hard time believing that this deguerro type is a younger Joseph when the hair and eyebrows are so very dark. Wasn’t Joseph supposed to have had like sandy blondish brown hair? It wouldn’t look that dark in a black and white image. It would look more like the other image that is supposedly Joseph (not the old couple on eBay, the other one).
Zoom in to his face and increase resolution. It could be sandy blonde for sure. Look at his eyes, it's him!
Go further and compare his kids' faces to Emma and this one...
I’d believe it was one of his kids before it’s him. Light hair doesn’t photograph black. If it were wet/greased, it would be a bit darker. But still not black.
I had this question also. But I wouldn't doubt if his hair got darker as he got older. And remember daguerreotype is going to have a different look than photography.
I'm going to Nauvoo and Carthage on the 10th, first trip. Going for 5 days, anyone got some suggestions to do first?
Take your time....lots to see. Plan for more than one day
@krismurphy7711 that's why we decided to stay 5 days but idk where to even start lol
@@C.anthony80 wow. I don't know if there is 5 days worth...lol
@krismurphy7711 well I'm a hunter and angler too so I'm taking my boat and fishing 1 full day
Pretty cool stuff
The Ebay JS picture looks like John Daker of internet fame.
I like this picture of Joseph and Oliver are there prints that I can buy one?
In my opinion, Joseph's mouth in his death mask looks so similar, if not exactly, like the picture believed to be him.
Totally here for the cadaver in the White House!❤
I think the steel man of the opposing side would be this photo could have been of any young man in the 1800's! I mean what connects it directly to Joseph?
Joseph Smith! Thank God for Joseph! He is prophet of God,the Spirit bears record
Got to ask as an Englishman, how come Jonah Barnes is wearing a Stoke City shirt? Is he a potters fan?
Remember the old Hymn The Unknown Grave?
I know Hiram was shot in the face, but I didn't know Joseph was. Does that missing section indicate being shot in the face? When I was in Nauvoo last summer, I heard that the skull with that big missing section was Hiram.
Joseph wasn't shot in the face.
Option B baby!!
Before the debate, I heard several of our friends from the media tell us Joe Biden is as sharp as he's ever been.
The media would never lie to us. What is going on around here!?!
The Ezra Eagle prophecy appears to be in full swing after watching the debate and what the msm are starting to say about Biden. I don’t think he’s going to finish his term.
What the media says could be true. If so, then he's been severely compromised for years. That would explain a lot about his son.
Amazing episode.
Put Shannon’s name in the video title so we know how to spell it
Never liked the new photo. Just didn't strike me as true. This photo looks like Joseph to me. In my bones.
And I feel it in my bones that it is indeed true. See how murky things get when you base truth on feelings?
Wait… so Joseph, Hyrum and Emma are not in a consecrated grave? And the skulls were removed from the location they were originally buried and therefore not with the rest of the body? We need to get that together in a consecrated grave or consecrated the area they were buried in.
I think the graves are still owned by the Church of Christ.
Hey could you guys show the pictures and slides faster? I almost got to actually comprehend what they were about. Show the speakers more, and the subject content less. Thanks!
When I see all the similar photos that claim to be Joseph Smith because they look like the death mask, I think people forget that he had brothers and they would all look similar. So these photos could be of them. Forensics such in this video, combined with descriptions would absolutely be necessary. I have a hard time embracing Shannon’s conclusion ONLY because I think we’re waiting to see one that has him in lighter coloring. I understand lack of modern technology affects the vintage photos outcome. In the photo with Oliver, the facial structure in that one does not seem consistent with the CAD conclusions though the coloring seems consistent with recorded descriptions. Maybe for our purposes, Shannon could enhance the coloring of his “Gerry(?)” photo for a “what if” view??? Please!! 😊
This guy is very careful with what he says.
Mark of good scholars
Totally.
Actually felt it slightly rude Cardon kept pushing it. The guy also didn’t smile much at their comments lol. Poor guy wanted to get through his stuff.
So does that mean that Joseph and Hyrum have not been resurrected?
Pretty sure that eBay pic is Don Bradley’s great great great grandfather
I think that both of the photos look like they’re the same guy. Like print off the younger one and draw the curls, add the wrinkles.
I am pretty sure from my opinion.
@wes2176
5 hours ago
Moroni sure predicted the Internet accurately:
"He said his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people”
All these Antis coming in here talking smack about Joseph Smith are making Moroni's prediction become very very true.
HEY WES.... I stick to HISTORICAL FACTS. And the "bad talk" about Joseph STARTED with his moneydigger partners who thought he cut them out. Joseph Smith left a trail of very pissed off people. After HIS Kirtland Bank Fraud people were REALLY angry at him....and that was when he was "acting" as a "Prophet." Just one example.
Would be interesting to contrast the hair DNA with the skull to see if it's him.
SO interesting. Thanks, guys!!
JS was definitely a Chad
What about DNA does he still have access to the skulls?
Have any of you ever watched the TV show Bones with Emily Deschanel and David Boreanaz ? Makaila Conlin (I think that's her name) played Angela who had a nifty way of taking the skulls dimensions and bone structure and stuff, and finding out what the person looked like.
And that show was based off real life experiences of a forensic anthropologist, so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they actually did find out what he looks like.
Buuuut, I have a few questions. When our bodies are restored to their perfect and proper frame, does that mean we'll all have our bodies as teenagers or young adults? Men have been considered to reach physical maturity at 17 or 18 right? What about women? I am curious to know what I'll look like when my mortal life is over and I am made immortal. Teenager? Twenties? Will we want to eat food? If the lion lays with the lamb, and both eat straw... what about what people will eat? Does that mean no more ribeye or hamburgers? Because I really am grateful for and enjoy food!
I thought Willard Richards put John Taylor in the cell to keep him from getting up and killing more people. That's what Isbell said. 😂
Isbell also use to believe that Phil Davis was a reincarnated servant led by a reincarnated Joseph Smith. Isbell is led by every wind of doctrine from anyone who flatters him.
... after he shot himself a few times with a flint lock pistol, of course.
I don’t.
So my question is, did he forensically attempt to apply the death mask and those points of facial features on the older picture of what some think is Joseph Smith also, just like he did to the younger picture?
I'm not talking about the man in the couples picture... I'm talking about the single older picture that the host kept pushing in jest.
Look at their 2 hairline just above his forehead... they are the same. I'm wondering if that is indeed an older picture of Joseph Smith right before he passed and the other picture of him when he was younger.
Could they be 2 pictures of the same man at different ages?
I would love to hear his thoughts on this.
Icehouses
This promo shows an enhanced image of the Scannel daguerreotype. The actual daguerreotype image is very 1:40 blurry and tarnished. And all of his purported skull evidence is bogus.
I feel the same way.
I do not think the dagarotype from recent game is Joseph. This image just looks too young. Joseph went through so much so I think he would have aged more from all of the stress.
Well, he used computers, talked to fbi people and stuff. he sure seemed like he knew alot. but, who knows. be nice if we could go back in time and try to take a picture of him. what would Joseph think of a cell phone lol i would like to show him Gospel Library i dunno. he was in the 1800s probally not alot of good options for photos. i think i am with Cardin on Joseph's forgiveness he had Jesus kind of forgivenness there.
It is deeply regrettable that Cardon dared to equate these illustrious Chadian engineers with the feeble, cowardly proponents of the "stop the spread" movement. Such a comparison is utterly baseless. Brother Hands has commendably upheld his duty, and may God bless him and all those who have dedicated themselves to preserving the resting places of the most revered men of every era since the time of Jesus Christ.
Wait… what are you talking about. I have a feeling you interpreted something very wrong here.
This may be the case, but what I recall is that when watching the video after brother Hands was mentioned to be an engineer and they could detect disturbed soil, Cardon began to compare him to the anti social pandemic people. I might have been mistaken, but that is what I recall.
I didn’t know Hiram was shot in the face….
1:04:02
Bring Curtis Weber on to discuss his findings.
How about some v neck tee shirts!!!
The chin is different though. And the guy looks about 12. What did he loook like in later yrs. So if this is the image of him with a pot belly it can’t be of him in later yrs. I think the daguerreotype is really him too
His nose was noticeably WIDER than in the "darreotype photo" type of image, (or however the darr word is spelled,) and the video's "darr photo" image makes his shoulders look much smaller and weaker than EVERYone who knew him said he was, who ALL said he was tall, big and strong, physically. THIS was a boy and man who worked long hours, daily, in rough 'n' tough Frontier America! He had MUSCLE in his shoulders, not a smaller "shoulder frame area" like is in that image, of who appears to be more of an upper class "city boy." Also, hundreds of thousands of men's bodies were buried in the Civil War, and way too large a Percentage of their bodies wasn't correctly identified before these final burials. Because 1) 1800s darr photos in businesses' clerical records, and because 2) 1800s burials, both, had so MANY identification losses, it seems to me to be Common Sense that any "lost identity images" in darr photos will NEVER, (during Mortality before the Second Coming,) be positively assigned to the correct name, GIVEN we had too much 1800s chaos in these areas. Even the 1800s American census records seem to have had large gaps in them. And : no one who saw the Prophet daily or often, in person, NO one describing his physical appearance ever mentions how asymmetrical his eyebrows looked, as I recall as someone having read many dozens, if not hundreds, of these descriptions ; but that darr image shows, VERY noticeably, a man with very assymetrical eyebrows! And when I try to "see" his "fine" oval shaped forehead of the Death Mask "INTO" that darr photo image, it takes a difficult STRETCH of my imagination... ...instead of easily, NATURALLY conforming to the ACTUAL visual image of the Death Mask... ...so I, finally, gave up! Besides that, the death mask IS an originally three-dimensional record, an image that makes all that EXTRA skull and computer work unnecessary, since we DO HAVE the death mask : on the other hand, ACCESS to the skulls of Hyrum and Joseph "came and went" quickly. Finally, Common Sense points to there being, apparently-?, some record of the prophet having his skull bumps analyzed and of his saying-?, he doubted that new science had much validity. Yet, somehow-?, we in Common Sense are asked to believe he did NOT leave ANY record of his saying he visited a business of new technology to have an image of his face & upper body created? ? REALLY, we're supposed to believe he would be THAT casual about the matter of creating an image of himself? WHY, in soon following years, did he pose for at least one or two portraits while knowing, (as he said, constantly and repeatedly,) that his Early death was impending, if he didn't WANT to leave us SOME sort of record of his physical likeness, and yet, IF there WERE a more "high-tech" version of his likeness, WHY would he, in his human NATURE, have left NO mention of it? He left a HUGE, overwhelmingly large "record" of OTHER doings in his life... I'd guess there are MILLIONS of artifacts proving the details of his lifetime! Why would he omit ONE key detail, (a visual, two-dimensional image,) in any mentions of his history, journals, diaries and so forth??? Or : WHY (the same question) regarding records of memories of his friends and family members? ? WHY did they TAKE a Death Mask, if NO one WANTED to preserve his likeness IN THE VERY BEST WAYS THEY WERE CAPABLE? Common SENSE about Human NATURE about people's motives of Love to preserve memories, with physical links, to one's OBJECT of love, Common Sense POINTS to there being NO "darr photo" type of image of his face in existence after his death! THAT Common Sense about Human Nature stands out even MORE than the former observations of physical disparities between images, (listed above.) Besides that point, I don't believe the expense involved in creating multiple copies of "Wanted : Dead or Alive" posters had the technology to use copies of "darr photo" images yet, EITHER. If he WERE hiding his image and HOW his Appearance was, he wouldn't have started his presidential campaign, not long before his death. He wouldn't have been incredibly charismatic and wouldn't have been traveling so much in his life, meeting (and often warmly greeting) hundreds of thousands of people. His life would have been more like that of a hermit. He WANTED his divine, genuine messages from the Lord and his identity to be known, and he WANTED to let people get a chance to KNOW him, and know what a GENUINELY caring man he was about ALL children of God. He reached OUT to people, by NATURE.
"Forensics" in the loosest sense. I thought this daguerreotype was successfully put to rest years ago. It's a case of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, and they have to claim the hole is wrong, not the peg. Joseph and Hyrum's skulls were pretty well documented and researched, and this isn't comparing it to the correct skull. The daguerreotype of Joseph, IF a legit one exists, would have been taken in 1844 a few months before the martyrdom. Does this kid look 38? The distance the photo of the mask was taken that they are comparing it to will cause perspective distortion, so it needs to be compared at a similar distance. Much of the alignment of features is portrait art 101. Many of the marks would line up across many faces. The eye sockets are too small, his bottom lip fold is near non existent, and the fat under his bottom lip is too large. I would expect the tie to be white, similar to the Maudsley portraits, and just because the kid has a high hairline doesn't mean he was tarred and feathered. I have that hairline. Can confirm I wasn't tarred and feathered.
Shannon never claimed the pic is of Joseph at 38, but rather likely at 33. Why not 1839? why would a pic have to have been taken in 1844? that doesn't make sense to me. the distance issue and distortion issue was guarded against via anchoring and aspect ratio freezing in photoshop. "Portrait art 101" alignment features argument is interesting, but I would liken it to something like bite mark forensics--really good but not perfect. as for the bite and lip fold issue..a death mask is taken when the body is laying down, with the jaw bone held loosely rather than how it would look when living and upright. so a death mask is NOT a perfect representation of what a person looks like. it would always be slightly off but mostly accurate. The hair issue is interesting and a bit inconclusive. you also need to recognize that the last five years of his life were VERY stressful, so babyface fat could very easily have been lost over that time. your worst argument is the tie. really? the tie would be white?! silly. tie color is irrelevant. Shannon also said he was 95-98% sure. not 100% He also said that he would like to re-do the analysis with better tools of today. I think the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon was put to rest many years ago too... but it just keeps debunking Anachronisms year after year. Is this a pic of Joseph? I dont' know, but I hope so. would be cool.
@@murdog5253 - Legit concerns and questions. It's not like this stuff is common knowledge. "Why not in 1839?" - Because you couldn't just go to D.C. and walk into a daguerreotype studio for a portrait. In August of 1839 France got the rights to the Daguerreotype and gave it to the world. Later that year the first known portrait, a self-portrait, was taken in Philadelphia by Robert Cornelius. This would have been a feat of patience since the first daguerrotype process took about 20 minutes of still exposure. It was mostly used for still images of scenery. You didn't see portraits regularly done until the process was much faster around 1841 or 1842. John Quincy Adams was the first famous American to have a daguerreotype done in 1843. Am I to believe that Joseph went to D.C. in 1839, when the tech was new and unrefined, and was one of the first Americans to ever get a portrait, 4 years before a U.S. President? It's a loose theory that holds little water. You think there would be more of a buzz about it. Certainly a journal entry from someone? There is no documentation that one was ever taken of the Prophet, except in a memory of his son, recalled nearly 50 years after it would have been taken, when JS3 was 11. That would be 1844. Feasible because Lucian Foster lived in Nauvoo that year and promoted a daguerreotype studio a month after Joseph's death. There was plenty of buzz around the Sutcliffe Maudsley portraits and a David Rogers painting back then.
Speaking of Maudsley, look up his process. His profile of Joseph would be strikingly accurate. The profile of the death mask lines up perfectly, indicating no jacked up jaw for the mask. There would be differences, but not significant enough to look like the guy in this image, and if so, then what do you really have to do forensics against? Lining up dots and lines would be pointless unless it was a reliable source.
Ya, the hair issue is circumstantial, but I don't buy it here. But the tie... I can see why it would be considered silly, but I think it's a decent argument, yet one I could let go of easily. But in the life portraits we have of him, he was seen in a white tie. Why? Cultural norms back then had some strict standards for formal portraits, and white ties often signified a certain high social status, as well as clergy. Why put Joseph in a white tie and Hyrum in a black tie? Joseph got another one done in his military gear. They dressed the part for portraits. The only exception might be if it was less formal, like passing by a random studio in 1839 in D.C., and while not prepared for a formal portrait... but I think that theory is easily debunked.
@@cheezedaze That was a long answer, and you certainly posed some history questions that I don't know much about...But, you can't just say that "you couldn't walk into a daguerreotype studio..." Are you saying that a circumstantial opportunity couldn't have happened? to me, that is an agenda based argument. circumstantial miracles happen all the time. maybe someone cancelled. maybe someone was unavoidably detained, and there was an opportunity and an available slide. I don't know. but it's possible, and when Joseph Smith is involved, sometimes the IMPOSSIBLE was common place. Are you also telling me that Joseph Smith wouldn't have taken it as a challenge of personal control to sit still for 20 min? I can totally see it. Joseph had surgery without the "social norm" of the day to get drunk first! The fact that it's a possibility is the only requirement with the type of analysis Shannon was doing.
If the opportunity for the image to be taken was circumstantial, That is another reason that the black tie makes sense. unplanned spontaneous opportunity would mean to do that process with whatever he had on.
You said, "Am I to believe that Joseph went to D.C. in 1839, when the tech was new and unrefined, and was one of the first Americans to ever get a portrait, 4 years before a U.S. President? It's a loose theory that holds little water." I couldn't disagree more. why not? Are you telling me that the grand forces of the universe couldn't arrange something like this? I don't even have a problem with Joseph being the very first portrait. I can even see the operator telling Joseph that he doesn't do portraits because it's too hard and joseph saying "I can do it. Let's give it a go!". Plus, the image certainly looks unrefined and unpolished.
I don't have a dog in this hunt, and plausability, implausability, unlikely, and social norms of the day are not good arguments when it comes to something like this.
Additionally, Shannon doesn't seem to care about whether the image is or isn't Joseph, and said many times in this episode that he would like to do it all again with more modern tech. I hope he does.
If you are so certain about your points, I would say let's get you on the show with Shannon, and have the two of you go through and debunk each other.
I simply hope that there is an authentic image. I don't claim to know this is Joseph, but to me it's the best one I have seen. If it is authentically Joseph, great. If not, no matter.
Having an image of the prophet of the restoration is not a testimony builder. frankly it doesn't matter a hill of beans. would just be nice to have.
@@murdog5253 The kid has dark eyes, as in not likely to be blue or green, his chin is very flat, tip of the nose is too low, Joseph's nose tip was higher, Hyrum's was lower (thus he is not the locket man). The Scannel daguerreotype has no provenance, meaning it cannot be traced to the descendants of Joseph Smith's location whatsoever, but 1840s Illinois Man is linked to a city that Joseph Smith III wrote about having friends in (in Newark Illinois, when he lived in Plano, Illinois in the 1860s, when this CDV was copied from a daguerreotype), meaning a better matching image, with little details in the eyebrows matching, the right thickness, left brow thin and scarred, right brow thicker and not as dark as the scannel kid, a nose that is large, larger than the scannel kid and the locket man, scars that actually ARE on the lips of this man Forensic Anthropologists have supported as likely being Joseph Smith, on the right side, very much an indent, NOT at all seen in the Scannel kid, sketched by artwork done by Maudsley, not at the far left corner, but slightly more inward, and the statement about the hair being pulled out, 1840s Illinois Man actually has less hair on the SIDE of the LEFT side of his head, that is definitely NOT male pattern baldness, but baldness this man with hair actually brush straight forward is obviously combing his hair in a part, to that side, and forward to HIDE.
I have a photograph of Joseph Smith and he had eyebrows. Your digital work wasn't bad, but you missed his eyebrows, they are seen on the death mask, and more than two forensic anthropologists have been given permission to write about and analyze it and other projects are in the works. 1840s Illinois Man is the ONLY possible image linked to the right place, in the right time, with Joseph Smith III. I recently realized the town it was printed in, Newark, Illinois- WAS called Georgetown for a time, there is another Georgetown 200 miles due south of Chicago, but in the context of Joseph Smith III traveling between Plano and La Salle, Illinois, only Newark/"Georgetown" makes sense to any sane human, as being the town he traveled through, A LOT, mentioning a friend Havenhill, census records show he likely performed the wedding of their daughter, they were from Newark, Illinois in other documents, and Joseph Smith III is saying they are from the village of Georgetown. So, while the Scannel kid has no links to being in the same city as the descendants of Joseph Smith and the Locket Man has links only verified to 1992, this CDV has links to the 1860s, to a town ten Miles away from Joseph Smith III, a town he traveled through and had friends in, to visit Bertha Madison Smith's family (she was from La Salle), matches the lighting and background of the most likely images taken by Lucian Rose Foster:
The oldest image of Phoebe Woodruff (side lighting and lighting from below, lamp seen on the table) and Emma's 1845 daguerrotype (ALSO copied on to a CDV in the 1860s and the CDV is the only viable image of her in 1845, not the blackened daguerreotype), which shows a SHORT unlevel background, also seen in my CDV. That artwork shows all or any confusing of the eyebrows, face shape, non issue once I had a high resolution copy of the only forward facing painting.
Oh, and you ought to listen to Lach Mackay's Dec. 2023 presentation with the Community of Christ Church, saying they had paid (as they often do) Bioarcheologists to analyze the photographs of the skulls, of Jospeh and Hyrum Smith, one they saw what I see is beyond obvious, Hyrum's brow bone shape matches the one buried as Joseph (way too unique seen on his death mask), AND they saw deformities of the leg bone in the bones buried as Hyrum Smith- consistent with the illness and surgery, even arthritis of the left hip, Dr. Van de Graff saw all this as well, a total of 8 doctors AGREE, the skulls were misidentified in 1928. Go to google scholar and look up photoanthropometry, you sound like you kinda understand the basic points, but it's what Curtis and Dee Jay used, he used anthropometry to make his sculptures, it is debunk and unuseful, except in the case Dr. Teghan Lucas has said, if you're trying ot get the height of a criminal standing by a light on a street, you can get an approximate height.
There are so many lies being said about me and those that I work with, just know, someone... a particular someone is not even accurately quoting our paper and making bold claims with only assumptions, not knowing who wrote xyz, assuming someone did... there is a liar out there, and it isn' me. I've been attacked in ways you wouldn't believe, probably not until the day of Judgement, but I am an honest girl and the man who sold me my CDV never half of what I've found out and has an 8 year digital footprint, he isn't a Hoffman, with how much he wanted hundreds of thousands, and didn't make the connection of Newark being close to the Joseph Smith III, or that Bibbins was a name known by Emma Smith and his Father KNEW her (100% true, even J.S. Bibbins of Newark Illinois is noted in his obituary, linking him directly to a biography that links the ministers to Emma Smith herself). I would be picky who I facetime with and trust... Lies were said about Shannon Tracy as well. Some angry people in OOTAH.
not Joseph
Oh u know this from your extensive research and experience?
@@topazblahblah I have this innate ability to recognize faces. I frequently see actors on screen that I recognize from other shows filmed decades apart and I check their imdb to confirm my skills. doubtless you have a similar skill. I was recently watching "Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger" I told myself "I know that is the DR. Quinn actress and sure enough.
I've seen josephs death mask. This looks like a different person.
@@topazblahblah Scannel kid's nose tip is too low, more like Hyrum's but not Hyrum, his lips are shaped differently and the scar he mentions is no where to be found whatsoever, but is found on my image of Joseph Smith, and his chin is completely different- flat poofy below his mouth, FLAT cheeks- Joseph Smith Had high cheek bones in the forward facing painting, the death mask, and he has too much hair, only normal male pattern baldness, but my CDV shows that ripped out hair that is NOT explained by male pattern Baldness whatsoever.
Compare this picture of Joseph Smiths to his son Frederick Granger William Smith.
$500 in 1844 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $20,937.93 SHOVE IT CARDON
I found a daguerreotype of Joseph Smith in my attic.
But you’ll don’t worship JS? Yeah, right! How can you say you’re Christian with the number of theories within your doctrine & history? I pray you see the light.
"How can you say you're Christian when the actual name of your church has Christ's name in it??!?"
Psychiatric Ward Radio spewing nonsense again. Thanks for the endlessly reliable laughs guys! 😂👁🐍🪬📒🏺🦉
Did you forget your meds this morning?
@@saintguymoski364 67% of Utah is on meds. You’d have to be to believe this absurdity and still be able to get out of bed in the morning.