Eks calybur lol, thanks for the laugh. Your comment reminded of Gordon Ingram, and how hard he pushed to sell the Mac 10’s. “This brick shaped gun will dump a mag so fast it’ll make your head spin. Look at this wire stock, that ain’t no coat hanger ma’am.”
I was a member of the Third Battalion, Sixth Marines in 1966. We were selected to field test the Stoner Weapons system for a six month trial period. Everyone in my unit fell in love with this weapon. We thought the Corp would adopt this weapon to become standard issue. But alas then Sec. of Def. Robert McNamara shot it down. He wanted all the services to have the same weapon,the M16. Once I got to Vietnam and was issued the dubious M16, I never quite trusted it in a combat situation. Give me the Stoner system anytime. Regards. John Ciummo, Sgt. USMC 65-69
A beltfed 5.56 at elevenish pounds? No wonder the SEAL's liked it, I would have too. That is less than half of what an M-60 weighed. Even the later M-60 E3 wasn't all that light.
@@weasle2904 Good point, but a) the Stoner LMG was yet introduced as a more lightweight alternative to the M60, at the expense of some firepower. b) the Stoner LMG still weighed 30% less than the 20 year later design M249! So, while it didn't really weigh half as much as other designs, it was still very lightweight.
@Parker Hetzel I humped the 60 around the hills of Georgia and deserts of Texas..it was heavy ..but you get used to it.dont forget the spare barells that had to be humped along also..lol..still it was a decent MG
So, Eugene Stoner designed this "because he had nothing to do"? When I have nothing to do...that's exactly what i do...NOTHING. Eugene Stoner was a genius!!!
And they say the AR-15/M16 is a 'modular gun' lol... Stoner was a true genius, the amount of thought and engineering that went into this gun is just mind-boggling
The ar 15 is more modular u can switch between belt fed ,mag fed, long barrel ,short barrel, gas impingment, gas piston change between 556,7.62x39,6.5grendel 300blkout u can even put a 50bmg upper on it
@@joshualance6005 The AR-15 isn't more modular, so much as it's been redesigned more times and is ubiquitous enough to have mass market 3rd party parts manufactured to fit those designs. Hypothetically speaking this could be done with nearly any weapon.
Solingen isn't the manufacturer of the bayonets. It's a german town known for a number of high quality knife makers (e.g. Herbertz, Linder, Böker). The manufacturer is Eickhorn (hence the squirrel) who also happens to be located there.
Verordnung zum Schutz des Namens Solingen (Solingenverordnung - SolingenV) § 2 Herkunftsgebiet Das Solinger Industriegebiet umfaßt das Gebiet der kreisfreien Stadt Solingen und das Gebiet der im Kreis Mettmann gelegenen Stadt Haan. www.gesetze-im-internet.de/solingenv/__1.html
Well, the closest rifle system to the Stoner is the Steyr AUG. It has 4 barrels: very short-submachinegun, short-carbine, long-rifle and heavy barrel with bipod-automatic rifle. The barrels can be easily swapped in the field by locking the bolt in rear position, release the barrel knob, rotate the barrel 20 degrees and take the barrel out. Put another barrel in.
@@mardiffv.8775 The closest rifle system to the Stoner 63 is the AUG? Can the AUG feed belts and magazines? The AUG is closer to the SA80 series; a bullpup select-fire assault rifle. The Stoner system could be reconfigured to feed both belts and magazines. This is closest to something like the FN Minimi (M249 SAW for Americans) which feeds belts of 5.56 but will also accept 5.56 STANAG mags in a pinch. FN Minimi and FN MAG both have quick-change barrels too - weapons which are largely used to replace these rather silly attempts at creating some versatility in a service rifle by changing barrel lengths. this only works for so long and systems designed specially for certain roles just do them better.
Robinson arms also produce civiliian remakes of the stoner 63 under the name M96. Probably still would be hard to get a hold of one i reckon but its an option nevertheless
The weight difference is pretty substantial in comparison. Stoner 63: 12lbs M249: 17lbs M60: 24lbs You aren't getting the same firepower as an M60, but you're still getting sustained fire from a gun that weighs half as much.
Plus each 5.56 cartridge weighed less than half of the 7.62 cartridges of the M60. The SEAL could carry far more ammo, which is very useful. The distances in Vietnamese jungle fighting aren't usually that far so the disadvantage of 5.56 is minimized. So more than double the 7.62 ammo plus 12lbs of ammo, which in M193 5.56 is around 462rds. Or carry less ammo and have other equipment or be less encumbered for more mobility. Having a thousand extra rounds or more for the same weight is a major advantage for a machine gunner. And we're talking guys doing LRRP and going deep on foot into North Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia who really needed to be able to cover ground and lay down suppressive fire and fight without running out of ammo with all their equipment and weapons man-portable. The additional potency of the 7.62 cartridge of the M60 wouldn't rarely be worth the massive trade-offs necessitated by the additional weight.
What's worse is when you compare this and the original M16 to the rifle/carbines we use today: Stoner 63: 11.68 Lbs. M16/M16A1: 6.37 Lbs. M16A4: 7.5 Lbs. XM7: 8.38 Lbs. (9.84 Lbs. With Suppressor) On what planet does it make sense for a 13 inch Carbine to to have a mass closer to an open-bolt LMG than the 20 inch main battle rifle it is based on? Further, what possible justification is there for what should be the same rifle with only minor alterations across 50 years to have a dry mass that's more than a full pound heavier?
I love that gun, I had the pleasure of building some transferable guns in the 90s. In regard to the commando shorty barrel they were also fluted, some of the top cover parts were milled instead of stampings. Also the extractor was upgraded in 63A to beef it up because they were prone to breakage. I'll say that one of the down sides to shooting the belt feed for me was inhaling the gas from the left hand ejection port, talk about sucking in hot gases lol "cough". My former employer had a lot of these in inventory and every time a customer would request to have one built it caused the price to go up and up. The last we pushed out the door back then was $95k Ouch! I truly do miss playing with those guns. Thank you for video Ian.
That was the most comprehensive explanation of the Stoner since I was in the service. And it as excellent. Can't wait for the range. Your mind will be changed forever after that experience. Thanks Ian.
This weapon was still part of the Navy's small arms inventory as late as 2008 along with the M79. I qualified on this weapon as a Master-At-Arms in 2006.
I've learned so much about Guns and History because of Ian. Last time i was with a friend in the military Museum in Vienna i could talk about ages and explain allmost everything to my friend. This Channel is not simply about gun's it is also about History and mchanics and therefore i love it so much
@@VadarVadar The history and mechanics is why I watch this channel. I'm not really in guns otherwise, but the clever ways of getting things to work and tid bits around that make interesting videos
Well deserved Ian. Outstanding work. BTW I have the squirrel marked bayonet in pristine condition. In all of my bayo collection I ever knew it would be one of the super super stars but it makes me smile. Big fan of Mr Stoner.
(EDIT: to explain exactly what was wrong) The M16A1 was very reliable for frontline use and worked well in the mud. It was only the first M16 version that the US Ordnance company screwed up intentionally because they hated it and wanted to keep the M14. They were mad it wasn't procured under their control, and that it was privately developed by Armalite instead of the government's Springfield Armory. They ended up changing the powder that the rounds used to a cheaper surplus alternative. What this caused was an extreme pressure imbalance that the rifle wasn't designed for. So bolt velocity was substantially different. This caused lots of ejection failures, light strikes, and small remedial problems. On top of this they also refused to issue cleaning kits, under the impression you "don't need to clean the M16," which is obviously absurd and it's astonishing they did that. The rifle wasn't originally chrome lined either. That was actually by design, it's technically not necessary to do so, but it helps a lot especially in places like Vietnam. This was all quickly (I use that word loosely, quickly for the government at least) resolved with the M16A1 Turns out the babies throwing a hissy fit didn't get them their beloved M14 back, and only caused hundreds of G.I. to lose their lives because a perfectly good design got fucked up intentionally. The only good news is there was a congressional investigation into the matter, with several men arrested (not sure if they were actually charged), and the US Ordnance Department was completely dissolved.
@@P7777-u7r If you're talking about the FAL vs M14, then no doubt I think the FAL would've been a wiser choice. But history has proven that the 5.56 round is far more practical in combat than larger full power rounds. The M16/AR-15 is also objectively better than the FAL. More accurate, ergonomic, lighter, easier to maintain, cheaper to manufacture, and it also is far more controllable. Not to mention the AR-15 also performs better in muddy conditions than the FAL.
@@weasle2904 I was talking about for Vietnam use specifically as in a counter insurgency fought primarily in the bush. Rhodesia found the FAL so effective in this that they kept their old beat up FALs and just kept maintaining and using them. Specifically in the vietnam era though the AR15 platform improved vastly after
@@P7777-u7r Rhodesia was a state with very little money to spare. I wouldn't buy into many of the old wives tales. Soldiers tend to complain and make excuses for everything, and myths spread quite far through word of mouth. Take the myth about the Garand ping getting people killed for example. If you weren't able to see the enemy through brush, it sure as hell didn't matter much if your bullets were deflected. This kind of problem is only really valid for hunting. 95% of all gunfire is suppressive in nature, and isn't intended to kill. This is important to keep in mind. The benefits offered by the M16 heavily outweighed it's few negatives. It's why the US adopted it. The US tested experimental M16 models with a select few squads to see the effectiveness of the weapon. And the improved lethality, and ease of movement the group had with the new weapons was astonishing to the US Military >"Specifically in the vietnam era though the AR15 platform improved vastly after" *Sigh* I will state, again, the M16 WAS improved DURING Vietnam and functioned FINE. The M16A1 fixed the issues it had, and worked beautifully during Vietnam.
Well yes, but there have only been two more machine guns adopted since. The M249 (If you consider it a machine gun, rather than a SAW but that's just splitting hairs in a lot of ways) and the M240. However, the Mk19 GMG was designed by NOS Louisville in the late 60s, and that's KINDA a machine gun.
This is an incredible video, WOW! I think this kind of video is truly at heart to why you created this channel, to document the guns of old in detail so it'll be preserved for the future. I don't know of any video or source that has been able to showcase a full Stoner 63 ensemble like this and explain its history and functioning in detail with these kinds of visuals and explanations. This is truly amazing work, and I'm so glad you got the opportunity to get hands-on with some OG equipment and make this video, this is truly RUclips and firearms history Gold.
I have wanted to know more about this gun for so long. I read about it in a book when I was a kid as it sounded so freaking cool! I wasn't disappointed!
Reasons I love Ian's work, he never gives up a chance to do something better, or cover it more in depth than he has before. Its not giving up those chances that mean his entire range of work just gets better and better. I also love that he covers stuff even if all he can give us is "ain't that weird".
I hate doing this, but... The company is Eickhorn (the squirrel touchmark is theirs), and it's *located in* Solingen, a city in the western part of Germany that's been our bladesmithing center since way back when. Eickhorn also makes the combat knife the Bundeswehr uses today.
I knew I'd heard that name. I found an OLD Alaskan Skinner out in the NM dessert years ago. They were made in the same city. Only the blade and guard was left. Beautiful knife restored.
I have a Solingen made 1796 Pattern sword and I just bought a brand new Linder Solingen Bowie knife. 200+ years of bladesmithing history right there! Thinking of getting the Solingen running wolf mark tattooed on my arm.
It interferes with the belt feed unit, not with the full auto capability. Jesus Christ, the comments here are full of morons who didn't watch the video.
I'm shocked I never knew it had a folding stock. I knew of the Bren configuration, lmg, Assault rifle and carbine configurations. It was always a fascinating gun to me. Any chance of checking out a LSAT ,Stoner 96 or HK21?
Best Forgotten Weapons video ive ever seen by far! Love the Stoner 63. I watched the video twice already. Your description and detail is second to none!
In early 1960's Cadillac Gage was developing the Commando Armored Cars and had its first sale to Sudan. They were gearing up for Foreign Military Sales to newly independent colonies looking to rearm. I have a copy of a Commando sales brochure showing twin Stoners fitted to the turret.
This is one of my favorite guns because of how it works in so many different configurations and how Stoner managed to design it so creatively, this video is awesome to see how it all works!
@@EstevanMurai Yeah sure of that. Ian is not this: Look, I got that most tactical weapon and I'am most bad ass, Gun Show. It's a show of human ingenuity and technical understanding.
Such a great video and a great firearm. I was aware of this weapon but had no idea about the sheer number of different configurations and intelligent design choices that it incorporated. Thanks Ian and congrats on 1,000,000 subs!
I was abel to see two Stoner`s in the Netherlands last month, sadly the display them along a very rare AR10 beltfed version in a very poor showcase with very bad lighting behind it. But it was cool to see such a iconic machinegun up close in Europe.
Deployed to jungle at their youth in late 1960s. Makeing it clear, these marines were too drunk, too stoned and to horny to aknowledge gub god's gift of a firearm they were given.
What an exceedingly complex beauty. Somehow, due to the magic of Stoner it actually works pretty well. Nobody else could make such a complex weapon system actually work. 1 Million subs woho!
Wow! Such detail! I really nerd-ed out. It's fascinating seeing configurability and point-by-point explanations of the purpose of each component, as well as the engineering thoughtfulness that went into making and improving this weapon.
Ian, I just wanted to drop a note to express my appreciation for this video. As an excellent tutorial for riflemen, this video is more like a seminar to professional design engineers. Over the past 40-years I have been tinkering with a similar system based on the AR-15 architecture. Just as Stoner did with the 63 system, the same design philosophies could be applied - in retrospect - to the older AR-15 platform. I'm retired now, but kept my night job which is nothing more than a continuation of the previous 55-years. Gone are the drawing board and t-square...hello CAD systems. Vita Bella. Imagine an AR-15 that could be "field" converted into any of several permutations within a reasonable amount of battlefield time! I carried the XM16E1 and XM177E2 and immediately marveled at the (possible) flexibility of these weapons' roles, from DMR-ish to MBR to jungle-friendly carbine to SAW (kind'a) to LMG (sort of) and even a quasi sub-machinegun. I thought the possibilities were all there, but never really pursued; well, 'yes' in the model permutations, but 'no' in the modular aspect. Anyhow, I continue to fiddle around with various designs allowing for things like quick change stocks, handguards, barrels (length and weight), sighting systems and fire control. Without guilt, I sit on the shoulders of Mr. Stoner applying his genius of the 63 to the AR-15. This is not the case of a designer plagiarizing prior art, but rather an honor whose intentions are to innovate on the preceding genius. Sorry to be so long winded, but I did want to share my thoughts of this concept. Eventually, I will put some of these mods up on my channel, but for now I'll proceed in the true fashion of a casually-active retired old guy. Thanks for the super video and the associated "range testing" episode.
That appears to be the coolest rifle ever. I spent 26 years either on the Army active duty or in the reserves. Much as everyone else I hated the M16. The few times I was able to shoot the M 60 at night with tracers was great. The M 16 with tracers would deflect on the smallest twig. Love your show. You amaze me with your knowledge.
I was part of the SAWS test at Ft Jackson Aug 1965 to Dec 1965, in the "Colt platoon." Gene Stoner was with us a lot. I qualified with a Stoner LMG before I even touched an M60. The official Army complaint about the Stoner LMG was it was too accurate and had no effective beaten zone. True. The rate of fire was crazy, snapping the ammo belts. True. Another issue I didn't agree with was the theory the tracers would (or could) wearing away the gas system ports at such a high rate of fire. Last, the Stoner configurations had too many parts for the grunts to keep track of, another theoretical problem. The Army just didn't want it.
Hey Ian, lovely video as usual. I've got a little correction to make, as a knife nerd. "Solingen" isn't the bayonet brand, it's a city in Germany known for knife/sword production. The actual manufacturer is Eickhorn (the little squirrel is their logo). Cheers for all the fantastic work you do.
The amount of engineering that went into making this so convertible is just astounding! Love looking at the mechanical guts of a gun and this one is a beauty
Iron Raccoon the utilitarian look is what makes it look great it’s like an mp5 it’s straight to the point quality and functionality first design is what make it one of the most aesthetically pleasing guns in my eyes
@@invictusprima4437 I think the reason this gun looks so good is because the metal and non-metal are similar colours. It's also similar to the SPAS-12 in appearance, so that's a thing.
Thank you so very much Ian. I've always been fascinated by the Stoner family. Got to handle some different configs while hanging out with the Seals on a cruise over to the West coast of Africa in 1980.
I have watched hundreds of episodes of Forgotten Weapons and enjoyed every one. This was by far the best. Interesting gun, incredible engineering, informed commentary. Thank you.
Every time I see this gun, I'm reminded of the RobArms XCR, since Robinson Armament Co. marketed a gun based on the stoner 63 which is how I found it. Have you ever had the opportunity to look at the XCR? I remember being very excited for it, since it was a long-stroke gas piston AR15 with an emphasis on multi-caliber conversion back when that was a little fad. The posts on the manufacturer's forum were sorta mixed though so I never really pulled the trigger(pun intended) on it.
My family knew Gene Stoner and every time I see a video highlighting one of his creations, it brings back memories of vacationing on his estate when I was a kid.
Regarding the Dutch bayonets: The company's name is Eickhorn and they are located in the town of Solingen. The squirrel has been their logo for quite some time; right back to their beginnings around 1900. As far as I know, they are one of the largest, if not the largest, producer of bayonets worldwide. PS: Solingen is pronounced with a 'hard g' as in eg. golf, game or gag.
My father was a Navy SEAL in Vietnam, although I know very little about his time there, i would love to know if he had any experience with this firearm
Thank you and the owners of the Stoner Weapon System. This weapon has been a fasination for me for years and this is the BEST video on the system ever. Cannot wait to see it in action!
STONERS!? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Gun Jesus is on a roll!!!! And congratulations on getting to 1.000.000 subscribers, you very very much deserve 10x more!
The bayonet was NOT made by a company named "Solingen", but by a company named "Eickhorn" from Solingen. Eickhorn is german for squirrel, hence the squirrel logo.
Now we need a video of you building all possible configurations ! If I could have one class three machine gun that would be the one I would get , and then spend the rest of my days getting all the accessories !
This is American engineering through and through! We Americans like having flexible modules that can be swapped out and arranged. Our friends in Germany tend to like solidly and intricately assembled devices with small variations and short runs. We like to do different things with one decent general tool, they like to do one specific thing really well with multiple tools.
I've been following you for years now, and I'm so thankful this channel seems successful. I've learned a ton, and you genuinely seem happy teaching me.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
*Slaps top of feed tray cover*
This bad boy has more options than you ever thought you wanted!
Eks calybur lol, thanks for the laugh. Your comment reminded of Gordon Ingram, and how hard he pushed to sell the Mac 10’s.
“This brick shaped gun will dump a mag so fast it’ll make your head spin. Look at this wire stock, that ain’t no coat hanger ma’am.”
@@bobamus1987 And what, I pray to the divine Emperor, would a member of the Mournival know of Mac 10's, exactly?
7hart2 as a member of the Mournival, “I can’t say”
@@bobamus1987 But that's a lodge rule, but it makes sense you wouldn't know that, garvi.
@@zerocool4835 The original smg was the MP18. It was so useful, if not particularly good, it still managed to spawn a new type of small arms.
I was a member of the Third Battalion, Sixth Marines in 1966. We were selected to field test the Stoner Weapons system for a six month trial period. Everyone in my unit fell in love with this weapon. We thought the Corp would adopt this weapon to become standard issue. But alas then Sec. of Def. Robert McNamara shot it down. He wanted all the services to have the same weapon,the M16.
Once I got to Vietnam and was issued the dubious M16, I never quite trusted it in a combat situation. Give me the Stoner system anytime. Regards. John Ciummo, Sgt. USMC 65-69
Thank you for your service!
The m16 is a stoner system
Thank you for your service John
Thank you for your service. Semper Fi.
Welcome home, and thank you for your service!
A beltfed 5.56 at elevenish pounds? No wonder the SEAL's liked it, I would have too. That is less than half of what an M-60 weighed. Even the later M-60 E3 wasn't all that light.
The weight difference of the ammo alone would have been significant.
M60 was chambered in 7.62x51... So not comparable
@@weasle2904 Good point, but
a) the Stoner LMG was yet introduced as a more lightweight alternative to the M60, at the expense of some firepower.
b) the Stoner LMG still weighed 30% less than the 20 year later design M249!
So, while it didn't really weigh half as much as other designs, it was still very lightweight.
@@andrehashimoto8056
I thought the LMG gunners helper carried the most ammo because the LMG guy has to carry the added weight of an LMG already
@Parker Hetzel I humped the 60 around the hills of Georgia and deserts of Texas..it was heavy ..but you get used to it.dont forget the spare barells that had to be humped along also..lol..still it was a decent MG
So, Eugene Stoner designed this "because he had nothing to do"? When I have nothing to do...that's exactly what
i do...NOTHING. Eugene Stoner was a genius!!!
Andy Prariedog There is a difference between beeing a stoner and be the Stoner.
Theres a saying about engineers, if you fail to present them with sufficient problems to solve they'll start solving problems of their own creation.
When I have nothing to do I watch these videos.
He would of just invented calculus but that already existed
boredom is geniality's biological father
And they say the AR-15/M16 is a 'modular gun' lol... Stoner was a true genius, the amount of thought and engineering that went into this gun is just mind-boggling
It's gun nerd porn, gotta love it
A gun that works upside down. Pure genius.
The ar 15 is more modular u can switch between belt fed ,mag fed, long barrel ,short barrel, gas impingment, gas piston change between 556,7.62x39,6.5grendel 300blkout u can even put a 50bmg upper on it
any of which you could also have done with the 63, if it had been as common as the m16/Ar platforms , just not enough military addoption
@@joshualance6005 The AR-15 isn't more modular, so much as it's been redesigned more times and is ubiquitous enough to have mass market 3rd party parts manufactured to fit those designs. Hypothetically speaking this could be done with nearly any weapon.
Colt: “this modular gun is ours now”
Eugene Stoner: “hold my beer”
Also Eugene Stoner: “wait, give me that beer back real quick”
Czechoslovakia: do you want best beer and guns you can copy?
rest of the world: yes please!
😂🤣😂🤣😂✌🐸
😂facts
Jöerg Sprav : Let me show you it's features. Ha ha ha
@@filipzalud9825 🥴🤣
Solingen isn't the manufacturer of the bayonets. It's a german town known for a number of high quality knife makers (e.g. Herbertz, Linder, Böker). The manufacturer is Eickhorn (hence the squirrel) who also happens to be located there.
Verordnung zum Schutz des Namens Solingen (Solingenverordnung - SolingenV)
§ 2 Herkunftsgebiet
Das Solinger Industriegebiet umfaßt das Gebiet der kreisfreien Stadt Solingen und das Gebiet der im Kreis Mettmann gelegenen Stadt Haan.
www.gesetze-im-internet.de/solingenv/__1.html
Correct. NWM was the manufacturer of the stoner 63 for the Netherlands. in English it Translates to Dutch weapons and Munitions Factory.
Also the Eickhorn KCB-77 is still in production so not in any way "rare".
Looks almost exactly like the bayonet for my Steyr AUG.
And cuttlery.....
Given modern advancements in firearm technology I'm really surprised this hasn't been picked back up. Polished and refined and reintroduced.
Well, the closest rifle system to the Stoner is the Steyr AUG. It has 4 barrels: very short-submachinegun, short-carbine, long-rifle and heavy barrel with bipod-automatic rifle. The barrels can be easily swapped in the field by locking the bolt in rear position, release the barrel knob, rotate the barrel 20 degrees and take the barrel out. Put another barrel in.
@@mardiffv.8775 The closest rifle system to the Stoner 63 is the AUG? Can the AUG feed belts and magazines?
The AUG is closer to the SA80 series; a bullpup select-fire assault rifle. The Stoner system could be reconfigured to feed both belts and magazines. This is closest to something like the FN Minimi (M249 SAW for Americans) which feeds belts of 5.56 but will also accept 5.56 STANAG mags in a pinch.
FN Minimi and FN MAG both have quick-change barrels too - weapons which are largely used to replace these rather silly attempts at creating some versatility in a service rifle by changing barrel lengths. this only works for so long and systems designed specially for certain roles just do them better.
KelTec have been working on weapons systems based on the Stoner 63 for some time.
@@Lavenderlore1043 That is great news, thank you.
Robinson arms also produce civiliian remakes of the stoner 63 under the name M96. Probably still would be hard to get a hold of one i reckon but its an option nevertheless
1 million subscribers. Hard work and excellent, excellent content pays off! Much deserved.
Thanks!
And now 2 million!
@@ErikAdalbertvanNagel 2.66 million now
The weight difference is pretty substantial in comparison.
Stoner 63: 12lbs
M249: 17lbs
M60: 24lbs
You aren't getting the same firepower as an M60, but you're still getting sustained fire from a gun that weighs half as much.
Plus each 5.56 cartridge weighed less than half of the 7.62 cartridges of the M60. The SEAL could carry far more ammo, which is very useful. The distances in Vietnamese jungle fighting aren't usually that far so the disadvantage of 5.56 is minimized. So more than double the 7.62 ammo plus 12lbs of ammo, which in M193 5.56 is around 462rds. Or carry less ammo and have other equipment or be less encumbered for more mobility. Having a thousand extra rounds or more for the same weight is a major advantage for a machine gunner. And we're talking guys doing LRRP and going deep on foot into North Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia who really needed to be able to cover ground and lay down suppressive fire and fight without running out of ammo with all their equipment and weapons man-portable. The additional potency of the 7.62 cartridge of the M60 wouldn't rarely be worth the massive trade-offs necessitated by the additional weight.
m60 go durkadurkadurkadurka. STONER GO ZURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
@@theme7363 thx
😅😅😅😅😅😢😮😅😮🎉
What's worse is when you compare this and the original M16 to the rifle/carbines we use today:
Stoner 63: 11.68 Lbs.
M16/M16A1: 6.37 Lbs.
M16A4: 7.5 Lbs.
XM7: 8.38 Lbs. (9.84 Lbs. With Suppressor)
On what planet does it make sense for a 13 inch Carbine to to have a mass closer to an open-bolt LMG than the 20 inch main battle rifle it is based on? Further, what possible justification is there for what should be the same rifle with only minor alterations across 50 years to have a dry mass that's more than a full pound heavier?
But does that Tupperware ammo box lock in freshness?
The sandwich goes UNDER the ammo in the box!
Sandwiches go on _top._ Drinks go underneath, so the weight doesn't squash the brass. :-P
You shouldn't lock in freedom
Listen... :opens ammo box cover: ...pppprrttt, ahh, still good...
@@matthewjacobson5779 Was disappointed it wasn't a pssst, Nice hiss.
I love that gun, I had the pleasure of building some transferable guns in the 90s. In regard to the commando shorty barrel they were also fluted, some of the top cover parts were milled instead of stampings. Also the extractor was upgraded in 63A to beef it up because they were prone to breakage. I'll say that one of the down sides to shooting the belt feed for me was inhaling the gas from the left hand ejection port, talk about sucking in hot gases lol "cough". My former employer had a lot of these in inventory and every time a customer would request to have one built it caused the price to go up and up. The last we pushed out the door back then was $95k Ouch! I truly do miss playing with those guns. Thank you for video Ian.
A bipod mounted bayonet with an LMG attached is what I want for Christmas
*Imperial Japan would like to know your location*
You'll shoot your eye out, kid
sounds like a solid plan to sidestep the ATF to me!!
That was the most comprehensive explanation of the Stoner since I was in the service. And it as excellent. Can't wait for the range. Your mind will be changed forever after that experience. Thanks Ian.
The ingenuity of design that went into this is incredible! I suspect it ultimately failed just because it was too reconfigurable to be "Marine-proof".
Like the Rear Sights on the M16A2, that Marines use just fine; but the Army said were too complicated ?
Just let the armorers configure it and I'll stick to just shooting it.
A Marine grunt.
It has issues with ammunition since it opperated at lower pressure due to the different configurations
Should have packed it with crayons
@@7.62x38mmR probably why they only let their best behaved marines field it.
-What type of firearms you looking for? Rifle? Machine gun? Carbine?
-Yes.
My fucking gosh, funniest shit I ever heard
Million subs!! Stoner guns!! Christmas came early!
Im really hoping that he drops the g11 video on christmas. It would be perfect.
I misread that as "a million stoners with subguns." 😂 Not really, but it is an amusing mental image. 👍
Nah, Christmas comes when Ian releases the G11 video
Should we hold your company somewhat responsible for that?
@@crominion6045 One of the most armed and least aggressive militias ever haha
"This isn't even my final form" the gun
IT SLICES, IT DICES, IT'LL CUT YOUR ENEMIES IN HALF! Shame it didnt get wider adoption, seemed like a real 'one size fits all' system.
As he said, it was expensive and a bit finnicky. Maybe not the best thing to trust everyone with.
pretty sure I’ll slice all my fingers working this thing
Didn't watch the vidja didja
If you chould re chamber it then you got a dmr
Proof that something that tries to do everything does nothing very well
This weapon was still part of the Navy's small arms inventory as late as 2008 along with the M79. I qualified on this weapon as a Master-At-Arms in 2006.
Congrats on 1 million subs
About damn time too...
@@thegoldencaulk2742 He will be posting a 1 million subscriber special video in a few days too.
I've learned so much about Guns and History because of Ian.
Last time i was with a friend in the military Museum in Vienna i could talk about ages and explain allmost everything to my friend.
This Channel is not simply about gun's it is also about History and mchanics and therefore i love it so much
@@VadarVadar The history and mechanics is why I watch this channel. I'm not really in guns otherwise, but the clever ways of getting things to work and tid bits around that make interesting videos
Well deserved Ian. Outstanding work. BTW I have the squirrel marked bayonet in pristine condition. In all of my bayo collection I ever knew it would be one of the super super stars but it makes me smile. Big fan of Mr Stoner.
US soldier "Am I being kitted with a rifle or a machine gun for this Op?"
Eugene Stoner "Yes"
This gun was way before it's time
Yeah before stoned was a thing
@Beel Zebub he is right, the 's he used is for possession.
the gun's time = it's time
Before any time. That thing is wild.
There are so many problems with this sentence.
Nah dude "this gun was way ahead of her time"
US Military: "This weapon is too finnicky for frontline use."
Also the US Military: "Boy, the M16 sure jams alot, better fix that."
(EDIT: to explain exactly what was wrong) The M16A1 was very reliable for frontline use and worked well in the mud. It was only the first M16 version that the US Ordnance company screwed up intentionally because they hated it and wanted to keep the M14. They were mad it wasn't procured under their control, and that it was privately developed by Armalite instead of the government's Springfield Armory. They ended up changing the powder that the rounds used to a cheaper surplus alternative. What this caused was an extreme pressure imbalance that the rifle wasn't designed for. So bolt velocity was substantially different. This caused lots of ejection failures, light strikes, and small remedial problems. On top of this they also refused to issue cleaning kits, under the impression you "don't need to clean the M16," which is obviously absurd and it's astonishing they did that. The rifle wasn't originally chrome lined either. That was actually by design, it's technically not necessary to do so, but it helps a lot especially in places like Vietnam. This was all quickly (I use that word loosely, quickly for the government at least) resolved with the M16A1
Turns out the babies throwing a hissy fit didn't get them their beloved M14 back, and only caused hundreds of G.I. to lose their lives because a perfectly good design got fucked up intentionally. The only good news is there was a congressional investigation into the matter, with several men arrested (not sure if they were actually charged), and the US Ordnance Department was completely dissolved.
@@weasle2904
I still think the US should have used the FN FAL. We'd still see new variations on that platform today and its a very good bush gun
@@P7777-u7r If you're talking about the FAL vs M14, then no doubt I think the FAL would've been a wiser choice. But history has proven that the 5.56 round is far more practical in combat than larger full power rounds.
The M16/AR-15 is also objectively better than the FAL. More accurate, ergonomic, lighter, easier to maintain, cheaper to manufacture, and it also is far more controllable. Not to mention the AR-15 also performs better in muddy conditions than the FAL.
@@weasle2904
I was talking about for Vietnam use specifically as in a counter insurgency fought primarily in the bush. Rhodesia found the FAL so effective in this that they kept their old beat up FALs and just kept maintaining and using them. Specifically in the vietnam era though the AR15 platform improved vastly after
@@P7777-u7r Rhodesia was a state with very little money to spare. I wouldn't buy into many of the old wives tales. Soldiers tend to complain and make excuses for everything, and myths spread quite far through word of mouth. Take the myth about the Garand ping getting people killed for example. If you weren't able to see the enemy through brush, it sure as hell didn't matter much if your bullets were deflected. This kind of problem is only really valid for hunting.
95% of all gunfire is suppressive in nature, and isn't intended to kill. This is important to keep in mind.
The benefits offered by the M16 heavily outweighed it's few negatives. It's why the US adopted it. The US tested experimental M16 models with a select few squads to see the effectiveness of the weapon. And the improved lethality, and ease of movement the group had with the new weapons was astonishing to the US Military
>"Specifically in the vietnam era though the AR15 platform improved vastly after" *Sigh* I will state, again, the M16 WAS improved DURING Vietnam and functioned FINE. The M16A1 fixed the issues it had, and worked beautifully during Vietnam.
As I understand the Stoner 63 was the last domestically designed US machine gun that was adopted by US military.
Well yes, but there have only been two more machine guns adopted since. The M249 (If you consider it a machine gun, rather than a SAW but that's just splitting hairs in a lot of ways) and the M240.
However, the Mk19 GMG was designed by NOS Louisville in the late 60s, and that's KINDA a machine gun.
@@CxOrillion Domestically _designed_. The M249 and M240 are both based on FN designs.
@@MosoKaiser Yes, I know. And that's why I only mentioned that the MK 19 was domestically designed.
@@CxOrillion The M249 SAW has been redesignated M249 LMG*, FWIW…
* ) [EDIT] Formally, "Light Machine Gun, 5.56 mm, M249"
NATO allies tend to be the R&D of the US
This is an incredible video, WOW! I think this kind of video is truly at heart to why you created this channel, to document the guns of old in detail so it'll be preserved for the future. I don't know of any video or source that has been able to showcase a full Stoner 63 ensemble like this and explain its history and functioning in detail with these kinds of visuals and explanations. This is truly amazing work, and I'm so glad you got the opportunity to get hands-on with some OG equipment and make this video, this is truly RUclips and firearms history Gold.
I have wanted to know more about this gun for so long. I read about it in a book when I was a kid as it sounded so freaking cool! I wasn't disappointed!
Reasons I love Ian's work, he never gives up a chance to do something better, or cover it more in depth than he has before. Its not giving up those chances that mean his entire range of work just gets better and better. I also love that he covers stuff even if all he can give us is "ain't that weird".
I hate doing this, but...
The company is Eickhorn (the squirrel touchmark is theirs), and it's *located in* Solingen, a city in the western part of Germany that's been our bladesmithing center since way back when.
Eickhorn also makes the combat knife the Bundeswehr uses today.
Too bad Germany is absolutely emasculated.
I knew I'd heard that name. I found an OLD Alaskan Skinner out in the NM dessert years ago. They were made in the same city. Only the blade and guard was left. Beautiful knife restored.
I have a Solingen made 1796 Pattern sword and I just bought a brand new Linder Solingen Bowie knife. 200+ years of bladesmithing history right there! Thinking of getting the Solingen running wolf mark tattooed on my arm.
Tomoko way to stay on subject Adolf
I'm late to the 1 million subs party, but I can't be the only one who finds it funny that a video about the Stoner weapons system is 40:20 in length.
Watching now i'm gonna say this might be the most thorough stoner video available
Yeah, "somewhat exhaustive" indeed :)
Maybe he he got high and forgot some details.
Kind of disappointed this wasn't uploaded on 4/20…
Nah, Cheech and Chong.
Ian: "If you want this to be a fully automatic gun, this little guy has got to go."
ATF: *The ATF would like to know your location*
It interferes with the belt feed unit, not with the full auto capability.
Jesus Christ, the comments here are full of morons who didn't watch the video.
So hyped for the G11 this month.
If thy prophecies foretold bear fruit gun Jesus will have blessed us with his knowledge he should also do the p90
are you serious?!
Should have kept the M69 name. Sexy gun.. Congratulation to all at Forgotten Weapons on one million subs.!
I'm shocked I never knew it had a folding stock. I knew of the Bren configuration, lmg, Assault rifle and carbine configurations. It was always a fascinating gun to me. Any chance of checking out a LSAT ,Stoner 96 or HK21?
Ah yes, American space magic
Kraut is superior! At least until they run out of money
Nah, at least the american space magic can be made again. Just give us time
*Yankee space magic 🇺🇸
G11: hold my Jaegerbomb
@@kyleclark4449 *American space magic actually made it to space*
Best Forgotten Weapons video ive ever seen by far! Love the Stoner 63. I watched the video twice already. Your description and detail is second to none!
Why twice? Short term memory loss?
Thank you for covering this one Ian. Its hands down one of my favorite multi-role weapons systems and a true marvel of engineering ingenuity.
In early 1960's Cadillac Gage was developing the Commando Armored Cars and had its first sale to Sudan. They were gearing up for Foreign Military Sales to newly independent colonies looking to rearm. I have a copy of a Commando sales brochure showing twin Stoners fitted to the turret.
This is one of my favorite guns because of how it works in so many different configurations and how Stoner managed to design it so creatively, this video is awesome to see how it all works!
1.000.000 subs, now RUclips should realise that this cannel is far more educational then most gun-cannel.
This channel is far more educational than most educational channels.
@@EstevanMurai Yeah sure of that. Ian is not this: Look, I got that most tactical weapon and I'am most bad ass, Gun Show. It's a show of human ingenuity and technical understanding.
@FuLLeFFekT1 what?
Such a great video and a great firearm. I was aware of this weapon but had no idea about the sheer number of different configurations and intelligent design choices that it incorporated. Thanks Ian and congrats on 1,000,000 subs!
I was abel to see two Stoner`s in the Netherlands last month, sadly the display them along a very rare AR10 beltfed version in a very poor showcase with very bad lighting behind it. But it was cool to see such a iconic machinegun up close in Europe.
This is my DREAM GUN!!!!! I've watched this video more times than I can remember 👍👍
No better way to crack 1 million subs than with a classic like the Stoner 63!
Ian, thank you so much for this in depth, deep dive into the Stoner 63, 63A, Mk23!
My only seal training was balancing a ball on my nose. This is closest look at the Stoner 63 System I've had. Eugene was a man ahead of his time.
4:47 hilarious when you look at what the Corps has been doing with the IAR lately
Deployed to jungle at their youth in late 1960s. Makeing it clear, these marines were too drunk, too stoned and to horny to aknowledge gub god's gift of a firearm they were given.
Fantastic job Ian. Eugene Stoner and his team were absolutely brilliant. Thanks for the wonderful video.
@Forgoten Weapons I love how your channel is non-partisan , informative, and accurate (no pun intended) .
"duuuuude ... what if you made a gun that was, like, all kinds of guns. that would be like the ultimate gun"
-first mention of the stoner 63
What an exceedingly complex beauty. Somehow, due to the magic of Stoner it actually works pretty well. Nobody else could make such a complex weapon system actually work.
1 Million subs woho!
That was the best and quickest description of the Stoner rifles and machine guns I really enjoyed it thank you
thank god Ian uploaded a 40 minute vid, great way to kill time while im dying from tonsillitis
Get well soon
Dying will be the ultimate way to call the whole thing off
I hope they atleast gave you some lean for it!!!
Last time that happened, they gave me a trachonomny!!!
Loved the a2 birdcage style muzzle at the end. Best design ever
Holy shit Christmas came early
The real Christmas present is the g11
Yeah, wait til you see what's actually posted on Christmas Day.
Congratulations on 1 million Gun Jesus. Well deserved, and you worked hard for it.
I love the distinction between officers and men. My USMC retired grandpa had black coffee spray from his nose when Ian said that!
Wow! Such detail! I really nerd-ed out. It's fascinating seeing configurability and point-by-point explanations of the purpose of each component, as well as the engineering thoughtfulness that went into making and improving this weapon.
Ian, I just wanted to drop a note to express my appreciation for this video. As an excellent tutorial for riflemen, this video is more like a seminar to professional design engineers. Over the past 40-years I have been tinkering with a similar system based on the AR-15 architecture. Just as Stoner did with the 63 system, the same design philosophies could be applied - in retrospect - to the older AR-15 platform. I'm retired now, but kept my night job which is nothing more than a continuation of the previous 55-years. Gone are the drawing board and t-square...hello CAD systems. Vita Bella. Imagine an AR-15 that could be "field" converted into any of several permutations within a reasonable amount of battlefield time! I carried the XM16E1 and XM177E2 and immediately marveled at the (possible) flexibility of these weapons' roles, from DMR-ish to MBR to jungle-friendly carbine to SAW (kind'a) to LMG (sort of) and even a quasi sub-machinegun. I thought the possibilities were all there, but never really pursued; well, 'yes' in the model permutations, but 'no' in the modular aspect. Anyhow, I continue to fiddle around with various designs allowing for things like quick change stocks, handguards, barrels (length and weight), sighting systems and fire control. Without guilt, I sit on the shoulders of Mr. Stoner applying his genius of the 63 to the AR-15. This is not the case of a designer plagiarizing prior art, but rather an honor whose intentions are to innovate on the preceding genius. Sorry to be so long winded, but I did want to share my thoughts of this concept. Eventually, I will put some of these mods up on my channel, but for now I'll proceed in the true fashion of a casually-active retired old guy. Thanks for the super video and the associated "range testing" episode.
That appears to be the coolest rifle ever. I spent 26 years either on the Army active duty or in the reserves. Much as everyone else I hated the M16. The few times I was able to shoot the M 60 at night with tracers was great. The M 16 with tracers would deflect on the smallest twig. Love your show. You amaze me with your knowledge.
I was part of the SAWS test at Ft Jackson Aug 1965 to Dec 1965, in the "Colt platoon." Gene Stoner was with us a lot. I qualified with a Stoner LMG before I even touched an M60. The official Army complaint about the Stoner LMG was it was too accurate and had no effective beaten zone. True. The rate of fire was crazy, snapping the ammo belts. True. Another issue I didn't agree with was the theory the tracers would (or could) wearing away the gas system ports at such a high rate of fire. Last, the Stoner configurations had too many parts for the grunts to keep track of, another theoretical problem. The Army just didn't want it.
What a cool system. The ingenuity that went into the design is pretty mind-boggling.
Hey Ian, lovely video as usual. I've got a little correction to make, as a knife nerd. "Solingen" isn't the bayonet brand, it's a city in Germany known for knife/sword production. The actual manufacturer is Eickhorn (the little squirrel is their logo). Cheers for all the fantastic work you do.
That right-hand feed + box holder solution was sooooo slick. Two birds with one stoner.
Wow, Im surprised they could mount on top of each other with the amount of modularity they had. Had no idea how much ingenuity was put into the Stoner
The amount of engineering that went into making this so convertible is just astounding!
Love looking at the mechanical guts of a gun and this one is a beauty
Congratulations on 1 million! And it only took 8 year's!!!
1 Million subscribers, Ian! You worked for it, you deserve this!
This has to be the sexiest gun ever made
To be honest, it looks more utilitarian than the AK-47.
@@ironraccoon3536 I love the way it looks, but it certainly has the kind of *heavy machine* look you'd see in a factory.
@@MarikHavair Ah, agreed. This gun looks great.
Iron Raccoon the utilitarian look is what makes it look great it’s like an mp5 it’s straight to the point quality and functionality first design is what make it one of the most aesthetically pleasing guns in my eyes
@@invictusprima4437 I think the reason this gun looks so good is because the metal and non-metal are similar colours. It's also similar to the SPAS-12 in appearance, so that's a thing.
Thank you so very much Ian. I've always been fascinated by the Stoner family. Got to handle some different configs while hanging out with the Seals on a cruise over to the West coast of Africa in 1980.
STONER SPACE MAGIC
What a fantastic piece of engineering, a basic receiver that is so versatile. I raise my hat to Mr Stoner
Praised be Gun Jesus, we are a million of believers!!
I had a Stonergasm when you showed the solenoid trigger hole. Badass engineering.
I know about the Stoner 63 from Metal Gear Solid 3, where it's available in it's light machine-gun configuration.
Likewise. Didn't know of the LMG at first, until at one point, this real-life counterpart shows up out of nowhere.
I have watched hundreds of episodes of Forgotten Weapons and enjoyed every one. This was by far the best.
Interesting gun, incredible engineering, informed commentary. Thank you.
Every time I see this gun, I'm reminded of the RobArms XCR, since Robinson Armament Co. marketed a gun based on the stoner 63 which is how I found it. Have you ever had the opportunity to look at the XCR? I remember being very excited for it, since it was a long-stroke gas piston AR15 with an emphasis on multi-caliber conversion back when that was a little fad. The posts on the manufacturer's forum were sorta mixed though so I never really pulled the trigger(pun intended) on it.
There are so many satisfying clickity clacks in this disassembly/assembly.
Wew, long episode today. But given the subject matter I can't say I'm surprised!
My family knew Gene Stoner and every time I see a video highlighting one of his creations, it brings back memories of vacationing on his estate when I was a kid.
Regarding the Dutch bayonets: The company's name is Eickhorn and they are located in the town of Solingen. The squirrel has been their logo for quite some time; right back to their beginnings around 1900. As far as I know, they are one of the largest, if not the largest, producer of bayonets worldwide.
PS: Solingen is pronounced with a 'hard g' as in eg. golf, game or gag.
Ian, as usual, does a brilliant job narrating/instructing. Bravo.
My father was a Navy SEAL in Vietnam, although I know very little about his time there, i would love to know if he had any experience with this firearm
Almost certainly, if he didn't carry one he was atleast familiar with the 63.
Thank you and the owners of the Stoner Weapon System. This weapon has been a fasination for me for years and this is the BEST video on the system ever. Cannot wait to see it in action!
STONERS!? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Gun Jesus is on a roll!!!! And congratulations on getting to 1.000.000 subscribers, you very very much deserve 10x more!
Pretty sure I’ve watched this three times. Hasn’t gotten old. Gun is full of tricks
that C2A1 on the wall though.
That video is coming in a while.
Damn. Eugene Stoner thought of everything for this rifle. The modular features just tickle my fancy in just the right way.
The bayonet was NOT made by a company named "Solingen", but by a company named "Eickhorn" from Solingen. Eickhorn is german for squirrel, hence the squirrel logo.
Blastmaster1972 That’s what they want you to believe. It’s really a “secret squirrel “
"Eichhörnchen" ,not Eickhorn.
It's all part of the global conspiracy to make squirrel unpronounceable in any other language.
Now we need a video of you building all possible configurations ! If I could have one class three machine gun that would be the one I would get , and then spend the rest of my days getting all the accessories !
It kinda looks like an american successfully went into “german engineering“
This is American engineering through and through! We Americans like having flexible modules that can be swapped out and arranged.
Our friends in Germany tend to like solidly and intricately assembled devices with small variations and short runs.
We like to do different things with one decent general tool, they like to do one specific thing really well with multiple tools.
@@coaxill4059 The joke was that it is extensively over engineered and very complicated for a bang bang pew pew machine
@@Porouskilldeathratio but i like my bang bang pew pew machine to be graced with space magic
@@spoiledmilk2587 kraut magic**
In the realm of firearm design I would give the nod to the US over Germany.
top notch Ian. very informative, nice to see everything all laid out side by side. I always enjoy your videos sir. hats off to Eugene stoner
Imagine if you could modernize this thing to bring it up to modern standards of modularity and reliability
I read about these when I was in high school 25 years ago in Marcinko's book Rogue Warrior. Cool to see a breakdown of this sweet gun.
My fav post ww2 LMG. THANKS FRIEND for the video.
40 minutes of Ian talking about an extremely fascinating firearm, what a treat! Great video as always and congratulations on 1 million subs!
Stupid 86’ Machine gun ban 😫 This is one of my dream guns to own
I've been following you for years now, and I'm so thankful this channel seems successful. I've learned a ton, and you genuinely seem happy teaching me.
person1: "who the hell invented this monster?!"
person2: "some stoner"