Ma Deuce: The Venerable Browning M2 .50 Caliber HMG
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- Опубликовано: 24 дек 2020
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The M2 Browning machine gun was first conceived in 1918, as a request by General John Pershing of the AEF for a large-caliber antiaircraft and antitank machine gun. John Browning scaled his M1917 water-cooled .30 caliber design up to .50 caliber, and the first prototypes were test fired in November of 1918. Impetus behind the project faltered after the Armistice, but Colt continued to develop the gun during the 1920s and 1930s. It was first adopted in 1922 by the US Coastal Artillery as an antiaircraft gun, but significant manufacture would not come until World War Two. By this time, the gun's main role had shifted, from antitank to being an aircraft armament, and some 2 million were made during World War Two, primarily as aircraft guns.
The M2 remains in service today, highlighting the brilliance and longevity of John Browning's designs.
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The M2 browning: Turning cover into concealment for over 100 years.
I want that on a shirt
Haha m2 brrrr
@Alexi Malenkov Spookiest thing I ever heard was in deep winter at Grafenwohr range in FRG in the 1970s. The sound of multiple .50 caliber guns firing and echoing off the bare trees and the snow. Geoff Who has heard some strange things.
M2 go *thum thum thum thum thum*
Well said.
Wife's gonna be pissed when she realizes I'm watching this and not taking pictures of the kids
Gather the family around for a wholesome history and mechanical lesson.
Can be fixed with m2, easy
Currently happening...
Lmao!
@@caseybrown5183 you sir, are a legend.
Imagine telling John Browing in 1918 that nearly 100 years later his design would still be used
He probably wouldn't be all that surprised
He would probably just smile and chuckle softly to himself.
How about 1911 ?
I imagine he'd be annoyed no one came up with anything better and start on it himself.
@@DSFARGEG00 its a full auto gun that fires 50 bmg and it's reliable as hell how much better could anything of that nature possibly be
As an infantryman I loved time spent with the .50. Its like wielding the sword of your ancestors because every American soldier in every conflict for 100 years wielded it and using it gives every generation of US Soldier a common link, in the form of the death dealing M-2.
It does have a weighty legacy doesn't it? Being a bit of a gun fanatic I was one of the few of the people in my infantry unit who knew the heritage of the M2, and I would be willing to bet a lot of money that there isn't a single one in inventory that hasn't been deployed and used in combat in multiple engagements across the decades. I felt like I'd been handed a legacy by those soldiers of the past and that legacy was there to protect me provided I did justice to the M2.
Probably very much like my brother felt as junior nav and weapons officer on a nuclear SAC B52 in the same time period. His class patch for the nav training was a picture of the B52 and the statement "someone over thirty you can trust." That plane will be approaching 60 years old now if it's still in active use, and there's no reason to think it isn't.
Since I was "dismount" (plain old grunt) in my mech infantry unit and not a gunner I got only the bare minimum of time behind the M2 and none at all behind the 25mm in our Bradleys. Alas. But I will say, once you get a feel for the M2, the extreme effective range and the destruction the thing is capable of wreaking, the only way I can describe being behind one is that you feel like Zeus.
Down side to our military (over the years) its become a FEMME Model. Split-tail and Fragile Men are now the standard, you see the LEFT is the DEATH of America. A bunch of Diversity Lies, Limp Wrists and Now Queer Nonsense. A path to hell.
Harry Potter should have carried a 1911. Here's why:
@@starcityrc3298 shit i dont blame them
For a period of about 10 days we had a sniper (from somewhere, never knew where these two dudes came from) attached to our squad. Due to the type of terrain and the enemy movements at night, there was an opportunity take out single targets at very long range. But we had to hump that .50 in the daytime -- taking turns with the baseplate, tripod, receiver and barrel, not to mention the ammo. As a practical infantry weapon, don't think much of it. Definitely belongs mounted to something substantial like an M-109 or a Sherman.
"...selling these *commercially* in the 1920s"
good times indeed
Commercially means selling it to other countries militaries in this case. No .50 cal. machineguns were sold to civilians.
@@davidresetarits5616 they would have made a killing by selling these to mobst- I mean civilians as well
@@MarvinT0606 I get that you're joking but I doubt mobsters would have been very interested for probably the same reasons they didn't really try to sell them to civilians, it's just SO big and heavy in that context. Not like you can haul one into a bank and demand that they open the safe (though I imagine if you did it would probably be an effective threat!).
@@MarvinT0606 not the only ones making a killing off it lol
@@jameshealy4594 You can make technicals with them.
1921: No one liked the gun.
2020: Everyone uses it, from the US Army all the way to Mexican drug cartels.
The definition of "ahead of its time". Has been a counter-sniper rifle in 'Nam once
It will stay in service while there still are targets that should be hit by a .50 standing up against an infantry squad. Who knows, we might even see mech suits wielding it as a SAW...
@@BlackBladeGroM didn't Hathcock mount an optic on one for the longest sniper kill before modern rifles 2000+yards
@@scooterdogg7580 yes it was done, but no it wasn't gunny hathcock
It was Carlos Norman Hathcock II, aka "White Feather" who modified the m2 browning to be a sniper rifle, and used it to great effect, in '67 he gained the longest sniper kill with it and for a while he kept the record until 2002.
@@unluckymonkey4382 it was hathcock
Fun fact. One of the Ma Dueces in my unit was manufactured in 1939. And is still being used, and was the most reliable of the 50’s
We had a breach explosion with an older one in my company and it wounded the gunner in the upper leg, he was using it in sf role on a tripod in a sitting position, he said it nearly took his balls off, straight to surgery
@@gnifrusdniw VA: Your testicular injury is not service related.
Defense contractor in 1944: "we figured out how to cut costs for these weapons we're making, so here's a refund of $2 million." (inflation calculator says that's over 29 million today)
Defense contractor in 2020: "we figured out how to cut costs for these weapons we're making, so here's an extra dividend of $2 million per shareholder (including half the senate appropriations committee)!"
Obviously, that's hyperbole, but it's not far off. And I don't know if there were maybe some laws at work in 1944 that also had an influence.
Today it would be "We've figure out how to save 5% on the production consts, so the total contract cost has gone up 10%.". Gotta get those dividends every year.
Maybe it was more of a question of common goal. Nowadays the money persons just know about money. Because, you know, "there is no alternative".
So the ones who attain positions of power are people optimized for making money, not having good ideas or being honest, even less being able of long-term vision.
"We're too profitable, have some money back"
Wow, times sure have changed
It was WW2 and everyone was sensitive about war profiteering. Also particularly after Pearl harbor society was very invested in doing as much as they could for the war. If you couldn't go overseas there was not much better than cranking out thousands of .50 cal machine guns. I bet the morale at high standard was fantastic
Government Contract Law is like no other on Earth, or near space. Geoff Who took the course back in the 1980s.
That was wartime. They had inspectors looking over their shoulder and they had a lot of powers modern IG's dream about. Today the money would disappear into some Black Budget to overthrow the Canadian government to reduce the cost of Canadian bacon.
Then: "Oh dear, there's a war on. Can't be seen to be profiteering."
Now: "Woohoo, there's a war on! Nobody will notice the profiteering!"
As mentioned by others, war profiteering was both a moral and legal no-no during WW2; there wasn't a formal law against it, but anyone caught would lose their contracts. This arrangement is formalized by the Defense Production Act of 1950. It SHOULD have been activated in March 2020, but wasn't (there will be whole books on it next year, I'm sure).
He saved it for us. Specifically to drop on Christmas. So now he's Gun Santa in addition to Gun Jesus.
AMEN JESUS
Be sure to watch the Arisaka paratrooper rifle video with Duncan McCollum, aka Gun Joseph.
@@TammoKorsai I have never thought to continue the metaphor in that way, but you are not wrong.
@@TammoKorsai i feel like a dork cause i accidentally searched up arasaka instead
Santajesusgod
“We want a full auto modern anti-tank rifle”
“Ok”
the genius of browning knew no bounds
The .50 I had in Iraq during 2009-2010 was made by the AC Spark Plug Division. She was old, but she was beautiful and never failed me. I was honored to be assigned a weapon that could have been used by my grand or even great grand parents.
When Ian mentions how long serving these guns were I remembered an article from 2015 where Serial number 324 was sent back in to the arsenal for its upgrade to the M2A1 configuration. In 94 years of active service it had never seen an arsenal overhaul.
You can't improve on perfection. Other than that pesky headspace and timing.
I was in the 1st AD may 82 thru Aug 85 our m2s went to depot every Q4 cycle
@@gungho1345 It really wasn't perfect, especially the headspacing, the M2A1 config was long long overdue, I mean quick change barrels and fixed headspacing have been around for decades, its amazing they didn't add those features way earlier.
@@gungho1345 never got to play with one that we didn’t have to set the headspace. At least they made some good changes to eliminate that. A fun weapon to rock and roll on for sure tho!!!
It's not THAT hard to do the headspace. If you know your gun, you already know how many clicks to back off. Screw the barrel in, back off however many clicks (mine took 4), and if you're under duress, you're good to go (granted, if you're under duress, you're probably not doing a barrel change on your Ma Deuce). If you're not in a big hurry, pull out your gauge and check it. Takes like one second. Timing is a pain, but if you don't mess with it you shouldn't need to adjust it. I used Ma Deuces throughout my 06-08 deployment to Ramadi. I had few to no jams the whole time (I did have something inside the bolt break once), and the only time I did timing the whole time was if I was teaching someone how to do timing. 2-3 times the entire 15 months. People act like it's something you constantly have to do, and it's really not.
EDIT: Took out a question I found the answer to.
"That vehicle offends me. Remove it"
"Oh bugger, the troop transport is on fire"
I understood that reference.
Yes, Commissar
I suppose with explosive rounds it could be considered artillery
the unit I was in had these on our vehicles. I found it fascinating that we were using ww2 era guns as evidenced by the stamped manufacturers. We had Browning, Fridgidaire, and General Electric stamped M2s
I was 22. I just joined the Marines. We were being shown one at a historical look at one mounted on a old half track. It would be my first time hearing one from about 40 feet away.. It echoed off buildings about 3/4 of a mile away. I knew at that moment. That was the position I wanted.
Did you get it? And are you deaf today if so?
@@tylerdean980 unfortunately yes. One of the most dangerous places to be actually. On top of a Hummer
Sometimes the worst thing in the world is getting what you wanted.
Imagine being a German pilot and being shot at by a machine gun manufactured by a refrigerator company.
Imagine being an American soldier being shot at by a tank designed by Mr. Porsche
Imagine being an American pilot in Japan and being shot by a plane from the same maker as your buddy's idiot drift car.
@Reagan James imagine being the only “mechanized army” in Europe and then a real mechanized army comes with 50,000 Shermans
@@thetalesofdaneandco if you hate on different car builds just because of personal bias you’re not a car person hahaha
Some people provably think American cars are idiotic
Well, since we got that thing as well now, Imagine being a German shooting one of these things at refrigerators for target practice...
Quite possibly the "least forgotten" weapon the channel's ever featured lol!
The most unforgettable. It'll never leave.
I'd say the "least forgotten" firearm showcased on this channel is the MP5, since it's shoved into our face by pop culture all the time.
@@stevenbobbybills I was thinking the same thing
I saw the name of the video and thought "Umm...forgotten weapons?"
Loud and clear
During WWII my dad's job was this weapon. He unpacked, cleaned and installed them in bombers such as the B17, B24, B26 and B25s among others. He was mechanically talented. He had this assignment rather than being a gunner.
I had an AC Sparkplug M-2 on my track in Fulda in 1983. Funny thing S-4 needed to burn a pallet of .50 on the last day of a gunnery. The ammo was head stamped "FA 42" (Frankfort Arsenal, 1942). So here I was at the "Fulda Gap" with a WW2 gun and ammo. Both worked very, very well.
We had the M85's on our M60A3's and were pleased as punch to get the M2 back on our M1 Abrams in 1984.
I'll give this a 12.7 on a scale of 10...
Only if you multiply it by 98
wardaddy jokes
@@RCgenral You don't get it, do you?
nice.
@@FIREBRAND38 You didn't get it did you? (.50 BMG = 12.7mm X 99 NATO)
imagine a military contractor *refunding* the government for reduced costs today..
I've read a couple of book about the Skunkworks. They did that a lot, they didn't want to lose contracts or get sued, so they would offer the DOD refunds and discounts the DOD didn't even know they had coming to them. It would be awesome if today's contractors had the same honesty and spendthriftness.
@@wittsullivan8130 lockheed sure isn't doing that anymore, that's for sure.
@@SuperAWaC Which is why they been fined millions of $ for cost overruns, bribery, and accounting frauds for the F-22 and F-35 programs. The US government screw itself (as usual) in giving Lockheed 2 of the most expensive programs in US military history when they could had spread the risk and gone with the Boeing/Northrup YF-23
@@JS-ob4oh boeing isn't doing any better.
yup refreshing to see honour and pride in manufacturing a true rarity today
I think if John Browning were alive today, he would be astounded that his invention has remained widely in service for now a century.
He was very much a perfectionist and was always trying to improve his own designs.
I honestly think he would be a bit disappointed that no one could come up with anything better despite having a century to do it.
@OrtadragoonX He'd probably be pretty impressed with the A1 upgrades though.
I never really realised how big these were until I saw one next to an M1919. They're literally twice the size it's incredible
The "long winded" introduction is fitting for a gun of that size and history.
Well most other guns had less time in service than the length of introduction.
Indeed
The M2. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Haha first thing i thought of when he spoke on its time in service.
All of that interwar fiddling suggests that it might not have been broke, but it certainly weren't quite right.
@Alexi Malenkov you say that as if the 30mm replaced the .50 lol good luck shouldering a 30mm cannon.
@@killdizzle #whoosh
If it ain't broke, Ma Deuce can probably fix that.
23:56 I love that they've made so many of these that the serial number doesn't fit the alotted space and they had to squeeze two numbers in after stamping it.
Can you imagine a company nowadays refunding money to the government on the basis of excess profit!?
I remember reading in a book years ago...the last M2 gunner probably hasn't even been born yet.
These things are gonna be around looong after most societies have gone down the WC lol
@@josemitakodachirecruit2004 fucking dolphin people will probably use it to wage war again
@@KhoaLe-uc2ny they sit there thinking of improvements to make, but then realize that there aren’t any
That'll still be true when the person who wrote that book passes away.
@@TheWizardGamez a bayonet could certainly help. You may say... "but with a recoiling barrel you can't attach a bayonet" to which I say "you think a jab to the goo will fuck up the bolt, firing pin, or move anything at all?".
You may say "but who's going to be able to hoist this thing up?" To which I reply "limited minds... you must mount this on a vehicle, or in a fixed position. On a vehicle you act like an antimaterial Lancer, and in a fixed position you act as an anti-scout car pikeman"
So yes, improvements can be made you see!
"Strap in guys, it's gonna be a long video."
My body is ready.
It was always a 'pleasure' to draw our Ma Deuce's extra barrel from the armory and lug it the 1/4 mile to the motor pool. It was sometimes used for 'Ma Deuce spare barrel PT'. My platoon sergeant told us to straight up slather grease on the bolt if we were ever in a combat area. Cleaning them was always an exercise in futility as you could wipe it down, come back a few minutes later and it'd be covered in CLP again. The Army also emphasized to NEVER put your body over the front of it during assembly/disassembly as according to legend the spring is so heavy it killed someone that accidentally released the bolt.
I was a platoon armorer my last year in service in the Army, and we were just getting the new ones in. Neither myself nor any other armorer was a big fan of them. The advantage of fixed headspace and timing was sort of lost when it also meant every receiver had two specific barrels rather than just being able to grab a barrel from a pile to use. It's not such an issue with smaller guns such as the M249, but M2 barrels are massive. They also had this sort of ceramic muzzle device that was a glutton for finding new and creative ways to shatter.
We had two of them in Viet Nam and it seemed at any one time we only had one set of timing gauges. Guys were always putting it in a pocket and could not find it when they needed it. Jungle fatigues had too many big cargo pockets. Combat Engineers.
Current small arms repairman here. I can't say that I've ever heard of needing to match barrels for the M2A1. Every time I've serviced a unit's fifties, we got a pile of guns and a pile of barrels, and never had them be out of spec. That being said, maybe they changed something before I started up.
The barrels on the M2A1 are NOT matched to the receiver for head space purpose
The barrels are completely swappable from any M2A1 to any other M2 A1
What you describe is actually debunked in the -10 which clearly states the barrels are not matched to the receiver
I am going to force my soldiers to watch this clockwork orange style so they finally understand to disassemble the damn thing
"You will listen to the holy word of Gun Jesus and learn from it!"
Thanks to several sergeants like this, I'm sure I can still disassemble one of these with my eyes closed even after 10 years out.
@@ekscalybur 30 years. I bet i might even remember how to set the headspace and timing although that is now going to be obsolete.
@@shawnr771
You can test it when the next video comes out.
Sergeant's time training approved.
My history teacher was an EOD tech in Afghanistan and one of his HMMMV’s had a M2 with serial numbers from 1926
Just realised it's a gun design that spans the period between 3rd & 4th Anglo-Afghanistan wars
Not really much to break you cannot fix.
Everything is built so chunky, and so well that they just keep running and running regardless.
@@alexh3974 Emphasis on chunky, fucking hell
@Name Change and still runs like it was built with decent care and repair.
Long as looked after and lubricated, they look solid as hell.
I’ve fired ones dated 1943-1950s it’s something firing something that old
Once you get head spacing dialled in it is an incredible gun.
In the British Army we used it as a ranging gun, but also an asset denial weapon.
The MG42 had a fearsome roar, but MaDuce let you know it was open for business. And with MaDuce she let you knew there was no place to hide.
There's always the field expedient head spacing, crank the barrel all the way on back it off 2 clicks to fire, if it's slow or erratic back it off one more click
Later mods did away with the head space and timing requirement, I believe.
"asset denial" is a cute term for "fuck the enemy's shit up for realz"
"Bop,Bop,Bop"!!😎👍👍🇧🇴
@@TomFynn yes, the "asset" is their lives
Audie Murphy received his Medal of Honor for holding off a Germany armor/infantry attack firing a M2 off the back of a burning tank destroyer that could have blown up at any moment. Also, LTC William Jones was last seen on the back of a jeep firing a .50 into a mass Japanese attack on Saipan, and when the position was recaptured, his body was surrounded by many enemy soldiers he killed before succumbing to his wounds. Many former American service members have deep feelings of regard for this weapon.
Best Christmas gift ever
Right!
Damn straight
A good stocking stuffer
I remember coming down on Christmas day and with wide eyes to find the silhouette of the Browning M2 heavy machine gun wrapped under the Tree. The words From Santa written on the paper tag. Don't shoot your eye out my father warned.
And for Boxing Day!
I never realized until now how absolutely massive this gun is.
Now imagine the watercooled version. ;-)
That's cause you never had to carry one to the top of a ridge. :)
EDIT: Full disclosure, I was a total REMF POG. I just did this crap in training. Don't want to be that guy. ;)
Ian standing next to her really did help to enhance my perspective.
@@Jamoni1 being the smallest guy in the squad, when going on marches the words i hated hearing the most: FERRIS, your carrying the .50, thanks for volunteering 😦😆
@@rf200774 If it wasn't the M2 it was the MK19. To add insult to injury they made me the M249 guy. Those jerks knew what they were doing.
The disassembly was a LOT simpler than I expected.. And Ian didn't break a sweat too!
The Coast Guard Port Security Units still have these bad boys on the front of their 17-20' quick response boats. So cool
Semper Paratus
If it works no reason to replace it. Awesome weapon, enjoyed shooting it from the bridge of the 210 I served on.
Yes, the coastie manning it muzzled me! Made this old Vietnam Vet very nervous!!!
Browning was a genius. The 2 longest serving firearms in the US military is his designs
@@John_Redcorn_ well then we can also mention the gas operation system, pistol slide
Not to mention he was one of the originators of the 9mm caliber as well.
1911 and this gun
@@todo9633 He wasnt the originator that honour goes to DWM he did make 9 mm Browning long (9x20 semi rimmed)
It's gonna end up as the Brown Bess of the US Military. In use for over 200 years (or more)
"Two world wars!!!" -1911
"Someone hold my beer" -M2
Don’t the Marines still use the 1911. I know the Sig is replacing all handguns though
@@MeanLaQueefa I think they used a custom 1911, the M45, until they recently chose to have them replaced with Glock-19s.
@@MeanLaQueefa Not anymore. 1911 is a good gun, but modern handguns are a more practical choice.
@@24YOA agreed.
@@MeanLaQueefa yeah, the m17/18 is replacing the beretta in some branches of the military
16 years since I took the unit armorer course in the army and I still remember most of this disassembly.
I drove a M113, we left the barrels in the track, but the driver got to carry the receiver from the armory to the motor pool, along with his other gear, it was always fun to do during the many 2 AM alerts we had in Germany in the 70's. My barracks was about a half mile from the motor pool, fun times. Well at least no one was shooting at me.
B-52 Bomber crew: "I serve this airplane, as did my father, and his father before him".
M2 .50 cal crew: "Oh cute, you think that's impressive..."
The B-52 are the orginal aircraft though.
@@mathiasbartl9393 the M-2 I sat behind on top of our M-113 in the '90s was of WW2 vintage and was made by Frigidaire
@@mathiasbartl9393 The last B-52H produced was delivered on 26 October 1962. I’m sure there are older M2s in service, but there are also more recent production weapons.
Still more impressive given the tolerances for aircraft.
@@Imbeachedwhale I'm not sure they ever did need to manufacture more of these after WW2. 2 million guns is waay more than needed for active service today.
All I want for Christmas is a Ma Deuce.
Dear Santa...
"I dont want a lot on christmas."
Lol, what a bunch of liars
Mariah Carey was actually talking about Ian
Try getting that down the chimney!
@@Plymouth888 If anyone can, Santa can. ;)
A long video for one of the best and longest serving firearms in human history!
I had one of these in Ramadi, 2006 to 2008. I fucking loved him. I had a universal mount for mine that could take a Mk19 or Ma Deuce, and I realized I could fit one of the wooden crates the .50 cal cans came in into the ammo tray, and then snake about 230 rounds into that crate. On one occasion, I put out all 230 rounds in a single burst, while doing about 40 mph down the street while dodging RPGs and machine guns. I don't think I will ever have a more badass moment.
EDIT: Can you imagine sitting in a trench in WW1 mowing down German tanks with a Ma Deuce (if Ma Deuce had made it in time and the Germans had fielded tanks in significant numbers)?
Could we ask you to do a piece on the XM312, that .50BMG prototype that **tried** to replace the Ma Deuce but was quickly shelved?
You cannot ask for a more..."forgotten"...weapon, really. :-)
And the M85, and couple of others I can’t remember.
The XM806(LW50)
XM218
Then yes, the M85 and the XM312
Then if you ever serve alongside the M2, then you deserve to stay, the GAU-17 holds a recommendation of being able to do just that
US military doctrine: "if it moves stick more M2s on it!"
"Needs more daka"
@@Squashy5107 Your dakka needs more k. 100 % more to be precise.
If it moves, and it’s supposed to, put an M2 on it.
If it moves, and it’s not supposed to, shoot it with an M2
Ian: "This has been a very long winded introduction to the origins of the M2."
Othias: "Hold my guinea pig."
RoflL
Roflmao
I was a GM (gunners Mate) in the USCG and I loved the M2HB we had aboard the medium endurance cutter I served on. On a smaller patrol boat we had M60s. What a great weapon!
Ian is the most brilliant narrator of any firearms autopsies ive ever seen. His knowledge and strategies in both explanation and disassembly/ reassembly along with his well-versed knowledge in design, engineering & manufacturing make his videos a pleasure to watch. His days on the range are an absolute hoot as well as you can see, he clearly loves what he does.
God bless Ian and may his days of his lovecraft remain for many years to come!
What is most impressive about this gun to me, is how tool-less the dissasembly is! That is some proper genius design where you can take it apart without any tools, and quickly at that. I expected him to bring out a wrench at any time, but he didn't!
I wonder how the earliest models looked, I can imagine the WWI productions needing tools for the first few dozen.
BALD!
Manually had to set headspace and timing for one.
@@8076A No
They are pretty much the same.
Field stripping the weapon is very simple.
And unless something is damaged further disassembly in general not needed.
The bolt can be further disassemble for cleaning.
On a side note during training we were taught to never stand behind the weapon when removing the back plate.
It was possible to remove the back plate with the bolt locked to the rear.
The operating rod spring would be compressed and if someone managed to get it free from the receiver that person would be having a bad day.
Didn’t expect to see you here, but I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
John Browning, the man who invented the heavy stubber, true patron saint of the Imperial Guard
And guns
In the grim darkness of the 40th millennia even the Orkz have shrines to Browning.
@@spartanonxy John Brownin', for 'e woz bru'al and kunnin' at the same toim
@@dootmarine1140 I am imagining a tech priest seeing a shrine to Browning on a Ork ship and just bowing towards it. The one thing the Mechanicus and the Orkz agree upon.
Cadia stands!
FWIW, I spent a year in Vietnam as a support troop. M2s were used in perimeter defense, mostly in towers were I was stationed. At no time did I ever hear the moniker "Ma Deuce" until I returned to the States ("The World"). This has been confirmed by many fellow vets I've spoken to. Simply Hollywood/Internet. We always just called it "The .50".
For more info on the use of the M2, in twin and quad mounts, research Vietnam Gun Trucks.
areyou referring to the book by New Vanguard?
The M2 is one of the very few things I miss about being in the cavalry... what an amazing gun, Im excited you're getting a chance to shoot it yourself!
As a US Army Unit Armorer, this was a real Christmas present. Thanks, Gun Jesus!
I was Navy, Aviation Ordinance, got assigned to the ships gun mounts pretty often. Definitely a nice surprise.
@SephS.: Happy Holidays to you and your family and Thank You for your service protecting our country. Excellent comment, Sir. A question for you: As a professional, USA Armourer, did I understand Ian correctly when he stated that the Browning .50 HMG of WWII, Korean War, Vietnam War eras- with available upgrades and replacement of worn-out parts by pros like you could conceivably remain in active, military service 80+ years after original manufacture? If true, that would be IMO an amazing testament to this legendary weapon-system’s longevity, reliability and just plain toughness. The few I’ve ever seen have been on static-display/de-militarized in museums, so I don’t know. Thank you again.
I believe I read an article from when they started overhauling their inventory that they did in fact find one that was in service for like, 90 years or something like that without ever getting an overhaul. I’ll see if I can find the article.
Found the article. It was weapon #324 and it went through roughly 94 years and never got a single overhaul or upgrade.
In the Army in the 70s we just called it “ The 50 cal.” It was a scary gun.
"We're gonna go shoot this tomorrow- which will be a TREMENDOUS amount of fun." Yes
*YES!*
I suspected it was going to be followed by a shooting video, since it's Friday, and he's where he can shoot such a beast.
You must be joking? Ian: I never joke about my work
@@MrDgwphotos it is very fun ive shot two machine guns in my life a .50 bmg browning like this one i dont remember if it was the heavy barrel version or whatever but i shot one and a thompson but the fun isnt why we have them its to help fight against tyrannical "laws" that the government tries to "pass" that goes against the constitution
While in the US Army, I had the opportunity to fire a tri-pod mounted M2HB. We set the headspace and timing, zeroed, and then fired a qualification round, all while seated behind the ground mounted tri-pod. It was one of the more fun firearms I've ever fired, which is a long and distinguished list. This year makes 100+ years of service with the US military. J.M.Browning was a true genius, even if he did dilute it with sweat. ;^)
I remember when I was in the Army, going to an M2 familiarization range. We were support troops (I was small arms repair) so we did not do extensive training with firing the gun. After we had all fired our required number of rounds, there was extra ammo left over so they called for volunteers to shoot it. I thought it was odd that the majority of people did NOT jump forward!
The M2A1 has been issued for about 6 years now, I’ve only ran into m2’s one since 2015 and they were theater provided equipment in Iraq in 2017. We brought A1’s with us so they sat in the corner. It’s nice to not have to worry about headspace and timing every barrel change.
"Now I have a machine gun...ho ho ho"
Merry Christmas folks
Just watched die hard last night
Welcome to the party, pal!
A security guard we missed?
Yippee Kai-yay, gentlemen.
100 years in service and still a thousand years left in service.
This weapon is the definition of "it just works".
In the future when the military uses giant robots, they’ll still be mounting the .50 cal
@@siegfried2k4 The M2 would be an *exceptional* "anti-bipedal-robot" weapon.
The Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40k is still using them in the 41st millennium. They are options for the pintle mount on all their vehicles.
@@erwin669 also a similar design is used in the IG heavy weapons squad 'heavy stubber' and most vehicle mounted guns for the gene stealers
Having fired it numerous times while in the Marines, I really doubt they can come up with a better firearm...it does and will continue to do what it's designed for.
The Puzzle Palace tried with the M-85. Not a successful design. Same with the M-73 in 7.62 NATO
I live near Camp Lejeune and my buddy in the Marines was telling me that they recently removed a Frigidaire manufactured M2 from service, if I remember right the unit had nicknamed the gun Silver Back because the finish had worn all the top half of the gun, but they where able to trace the service of the M2 back to the army air corp in use in the European theater. The gun was taken out of service and it is suppose to end up on display at the Museum of the Marine that is being built next to the Beirut Memorial.
John M. Browning: „I Wonder how long this .50 cal will be around.“
Mad Max: „We have a Ma Deuce. Let’s use it to arm the truck with the most prestigious cargo: the toilet paper truck.“
2021 Australia, colourized?
98 years in service and only now getting an A1 upgrade? Dang.
The first prophet of the Mechanicum, the grandfather of all tech priests, designed it, so yeah.
@@ekscalybur Wouldn't be surprised if this is still around when the time comes to purge filthy xenos and heretics.
Yep. Someone finally realized that now we have the ability to control the tolerances well enough that we can set headspace at the factory.
I wonder how long before they introduce the A2 variant now? A 100 more years?
@@justineallandevelos6491 It's actually astonishing how behind we are on HMG development. The Russian KORD is so lightweight and flexible that it can be used as a medium machine gun. And now apparently the Chinese have an even lighter HMG that can easily be carried around by a single man. This is kind of ridiculous.
John Browning was a genius in figuring mechanisms out.
It was the standard heavy machine gun in the Norwegian army when I served in 1986 - and still is.
It was pretty effective whit the Raufoss Multipurpose amo.
AK designer Kalashnikov had said that Browning was one of his biggest influencers outside Russia, because of Browning's belief that all that is simple is useful and all that is complex is not.
I believe that too. The more complex something is, the more parts there are, the more likely it is to fail and the harder it will be to fix it. Not everything has to be so super complex and complicated to be used in the modern era.
@Jimmy Two Times grease gun
@Jimmy Two Times All humans are born dead anyways. Might as well go out on our own terms.
above is a discussion between the department of procurement, and the the logistics department.
@@Robb1977 Let me guess, I'm the Logistics Department and Jimmy Two Times is the Department of Procurement?
Reminder that this gun held the record for longest kill until 2002.
@Enwurd Looter I meant as a sniper rifle.
@Enwurd Looter I’m mean sniper as a rifle caliber weapon being used by one person to kill one person. Those weapons you describe do not count as sniper kills.
@Enwurd Looter Why must you be like this. You knew what he meant. I knew what he meant. We all did. Why be an ass?
TIL! I didn't know that a M2 had been able to hit that accurate at 2500yd, but I guess that there were more than one shot involved? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_recorded_sniper_kills
@@everythingexplained If so, it was in semi-automatic mode. Hathcock and others (as far back as the Korean War) mounted scopes on an M2 and sniped with the weapon in the semi-auto mode that Ian discussed. Some also did some tuning work on the spade grip and triggers.
100 years of service, and still going strong.
I visited the Canadian navy frigate, HMCS Winnipeg. On this ship I was shown an M2 .50cal mounted in a remote weapons station, that was made 1941 and had been in continuous navy service since then
As the world wars ended the
ma deuce was there
As the last millennium came to a close and a new one begin the
ma deuce was there
And as autonomous vehicles take the battlefield the ma deuce will be there
When most fighting is done by robots the ma deuce will be there
And as we take to the stars and settle other planets the ma deuce will be there
War may change but the ma deuce will always be there
Wars come and go, but one thing remains the same. And that, is the Ma Deuce.
Just imagine when we colonize other planets and bring this bad boy along
Even in the grim dark future,
The Ma Deuce was there
It may go by another name,
but behind all the bells and whistles,
beneath the polish and accessories,
The Ma Deuce was there
@@edwardhaybell1938 in the grim dark future I'm pretty sure the ma deuce is called a heavy stubber lol
@@edwardhaybell1938 With receivers built in WW2
This is the exact opposite of a Forgotten Weapon, BUT one hell of a Christmas surprise. Merry Christmas Ian!
Proudly in service for nearly 100 years
Its history is forgotten however.
Unforgettable Weapons.
And a boxing day present to thanks again Ian
On Christmas, all bets are off. Regular Car Reviews reviewed an aircraft.
Just a thought, we were trained to never leave the charging handle in the rear after charging the weapon, put it back in its forward position, possibility of parts damage if you let the bolt push it forward. When I taught Kuwaitis the M1A2 Abrams one change I fell in love with was the M2HBE1 built by SACO, iirc. major change was a quick change, fixed headspace barrel. Still had a headspace and timing gauge, but the headspace was either good, or try another barrel, no adjustment was possible. Timing was still the same.
Lots of my scouts complained that they had to fight the machine gun to put boolets on target. Standard answer was fix your equilibrator. Really a pain in the butt to do and you had to remember to adjust it with a full ammo can attached, bullets, rocks, either works, need the weight to make it balance. My kuwaitis glommed onto this right off and they would have embarrassed my scouts until I taught them to adjust their WWII era equilibrators on the M113s. Abrams equilibrator was more modern and easier to fiddle with, but you still needed a full ammo can when adjusting.
Have you done the .50 cal M85 MG yet. Got me some war stories there, too. Oh for the love of a synch arm. If you had a good one you never left it in the tank. Some SOB would steal it as soon as you turned your back. Also easily broken when used by 1D10Ts. (you'll figure it out).
Also, the barrel, bolt, barrel extension and buffer housing recoil as a unit until the buffer extension reaches it's limit of travel. The barrel and barrel extension continue rearward travel, forcing the accelerator lever to accelerate the bolt rearward. They don't slow squat. They are accelerators, not bolt slower downers. Once the bolt has been 'accelerated' the barrel, barrel extension and buffer housing return to their original position pushed by the buffer spring. followed by the bolt with a new boolet if in auto mode.
Oh heck, my M85 war story follows. If you visited a tank range at Ft Carson CO in the early 80's almost every TC fired his M85 on high rate, contributing to breakage, it was intended for anti-aircraft use. Use low rate (about the same as the M2's) for ground targets. If you heard an M85 going 'BURRRRRRRRRRT' wasn't me. If you heard Bup Bup Bup Bup Bup... That was me. May have been the only tanker in the army to shoot his M85 on low rate routinely. I liked putting a belt in the ammo tray at the beginning of gunnery training and still using the same belt on the qualification range.
On the platoon qualification range, TTX, IIRC I'd put one belt in the tray, two more in the ammo storage below my feet and trained my gunner to grab one and hold it up to me so I could reload. Time it right and you could do it buttoned up, (needed about 10-12 boolets left in the existing belt),otherwise reloading an empty M85 required exposing yourself because you had to open it up from on top to put the belt into the MG. (You could theoretically do it buttoned up but do it once and you'll never do it again.)
My habit was to use the rangefinder to get the range to my target, use it again for my gunner's target and announce it to him in case the ballistic computer didn't get the input from my rangefinder. Use my sight on my target, shoot as few boolets as needed to kill the target, and move on. On the platoon qual I made a point of exhausting my first belt so I had to practice the reload. Probably the only guy that did that, too.
One time in qualification I started out the engagement as normal, ranged my target, ranged my gunner's target announced the range and the the 'Gunner, Heat, PC, Diver move out, Gunner take over, Caliber 50!' He did his thing and killed the BMP target. I engaged my troop target, one shot and stopped, no response from the trigger. Grabbed charging chain handle and yanked, No response from electrical trigger, Yanked manual firing chain handle *BANGI* and nothing. Charged, yanked *BANG*, Charged, yanked *BANG* Target TC complete, driver back up. Left hand bled like a stuck pig after banging around the cupola manual controls. Wrapped it up with a handkerchief and motored on. qualified as expected.
On the TTVII practice range (TTVIII but for practice) we had an NBC engagement requiring us to mask up and attach to our tank's NBC systems. Only one engagement and then it's magically 'all clear'. Pulled up to the starting position and when the tower asked if I was ready I said 'Hold that thought, GAS, GAS, GAS!. My crew did their thing as did I. Tower complained 'this isn't the gas engagement.' My reply, 'you don't get it, for my guys this is the TTVII NBC range, they're all gas engagements. Let's go.' Probably the only guy to do that too. Fired a qualifying score. SMAJ was not happy. Not my problem, he didn't rate me.
Give him credit though, he thoroughly cussed out my Troop CO for not giving me a max rating for the period, which he subsequently did. CSM Jeff Fields I wasn't wearing cooks whites. I was a working tanker and had just come out from under a tank to attend my driver's Art 15 hearing for having a pistol in the barracks that I found and turned over to the XO. I think you were pissed that I bucked the 'max him' chorus and the RCO agreed with me instead of my PSG, 1sg, CO, Sqdn CSM, Sqdn CO, Regt'l CSM.
At the time I was one of very few official NCO platoon leaders. Usually, a lieutenant's position but this one was mine. Position got converted later and I became a 'mere' PSG.
@@johnallison820
Ummm kinda sorta right but out of order
1. As a small arms repairman in the army from the early to mid ''80s I worked on a lot of WWII era M2s. I remember seeing at least one Kelsey-Hayes Wheel Co M2, but by my estimate over 99% that I saw were made by AC Spark Plug in Flint, MI, less than a mile from the house I grew up in. One of the guys in my high school's mother worked there during the war. She told me how these little ladies were down in the basement test firing them. It just seemed comical to me that they were shooting machine guns that weighed as much as they did. And less than 50 feet from a main highway through town. 2. One unit armorer whose weapons I worked on had a Ma Deuce Adjusting Tool. On some of the old guns, excessive pressure or just plain wear and tear bulged the bottom of the receiver right where the cam is inside. He used a BIG hammer to knock that area back into place, and it locked up and unlocked like it was supposed to. 3..Some of the rear sight bases I saw were milled with a big dovetail for scope attachment on the side, instead of stamped and folded sheet steel. When you fire semi-auto, since it fires from a closed bolt, it doesn't jar your sights off target like the bolt slamming shut would. The M2 was the first .50 BMG caliber sniper weapon that I'm aware of. 4 Despite its flaws I still liked the M85. Because it was so much shorter than the M2 it fit in the cupola of M60A1 and M60A3 tanks. When the M1 tanks came out, instead of firing from inside the fully armored tank, the tank commander had to open the hatch and stick his head and upper torso out to fire the M2. I bet there were times some of them would have rather had a cupola with an M85 inside. Also, the M60A2 tank which wasn't in service, and for good reason, had a turret so small, the standard cupola wouldn't fit. The only way they could fit the M85 in was by turning it upside down and switching it to right-hand feed. It sits over the tank commander's right shoulder, instead of being in front of him.
"Strap in guys, it's gonna be a long video"
* looks at video length *
*oh crap*
LET'S GOOOOOOO
My response was "Yeee-hawww!"
Coward
*laughs in Drachinifel*
Gun Jesus bring us some Christmas cheer!
My Cav unit was issued new Abrams in the early 90's (A1-HC's) our "new" Ma Dueces were in crates marked from the 40's...
From back when American factories built quality stuff.
New old stock?
"Fresh frozen"
That's one hell of a backorder.
On a darker (or lighter note) the purple hearts issued at the time were probably also made in the 40's ,as they expected 250k casualties invading Japan, ultimately they harnessed the power of the atom and they were not needed at the time.
The M2 is hardly forgotten it's the greatest MG ever made.
I was a HMG gunner with a one meter turret and that gun was stamped 1942 General Electric spark plug Coy.
The QCB was a easy solution for the gunner to have to adjust the head space and timing for the 12.7mm.
It caused havoc initially with the degradation of HMG gunner skill set.
A whole video could be spent on the bolt strip and assembly which is as fun as pitting the accelerator assembly with the bolt into the main body again.
Many boot laces have been sacrificed in the repair of rockies trying to assemble a "fired" position bolt back into the HMG.
Good bless the procurement gods that has kept this gun safe for the CAF! From Germany, Croatia, Bosnia Hertz, Macedonia, Kosovo, Africa and Somalia, into Afghanistan and Iraq a great HMG that jad so many usses.
Cheers
Love the video
Mark my words, the M2 will see action in the first war against aliens.
Brother, get the stubber! The heavy stubber!
I'm sure somewhere in the stargate universe, in one episode they just set up a 50 cal and empty a belt into a gate set to an enemy world.
Alien Marine fires 2mm coil gun, 2,000RPM, tungsten grav-core-compressed projectile at 12,000mph
Humans turn to pink mist at 5miles after the projectile has already gone though a brick wall (or rather, the expanding cloud of plasma whacks the Humans).
Aliens say:
"WE PROBE U, HUMIES!
YOU NO BEAT US WITH APPLE MACS AND AR15s,
YOU PRIMITIVE SCREWHEADS!" :P
@@letsburn00 They had an episode where Jack O'Neil mans a M2HB mounted on a ATV
Browning M2, the OG heavy bolter :D
"It's an anti-aircraft weapon primarily "
I've had a 30+ year intimate acquaintance with ma deuce and I can tell you she is an anti-everything weapon. I have seen OPFOR soldiers almost shit themselves diving for cover when ma just fires blanks. The psychological effect of that rapid boom can not be overstated. When ma gets fed with the real stuff, the effect is shattering to the enemy. Its literally a visceral response starting in the lizard brain and ending at the sphincter when a .50 opens up.
So it is like the ending of the 4th Rambo film?
You Sir, have a way with words. Short, sweet and complete.
‘Ending at the sphincter’ ha that’s a good one
In OPFOR, the .50 was shooting wooden bullets, with a splitter on the end of the muzzle. There are no bottleneck rounds that effectively keep the gun in full auto. So it shoots soft pine wood bullets.
Interesting physiological concept, with the lizard brain involvement. Brings to mind the old line from Bill Cosby, " First you say it, then you do it" .
Shot one of these while in the reserves and although the recoil was strong, this thing is surprisingly super controllable to the point that it felt like I was firing an m4
That makes sense. You think that's why it's still around?
@lotklear1379 I do, however I believe the credit should go to the mount though, it just kept it so stable while firing.
Good stuff. Crazy how a 100 year old design has survived. I recall hearing a story of a tanker serving in Somalia, having to drive his convoy down a dangerous roadway. All other weapons the bad guys ignored, but open up that M2 and "they part like the Rea Sea". Any weapon that can instill that kind of fear can remain in service indefinitely.
There were no tanks in Somalia. They were at Waco killing the Branch Davidians.
There was a documentary series called 'Tales of the gun' and they dedicated an entire episode to the guns of Browning. When covering the M2, apparently John Browning sold the M2 to the US government for a flat fee instead of taking royalties. Browning's gift to his country
He did the same thing with the BAR, and other weapons. Browning was a strong patriot, a humble man, a strong follower of his faith, a good father, and is the only man to Americanize a foreign arms company.
His strength of character is one that few people in history can match. For that reason he is someone I greatly admire compared to other inventors of his day who were greedy douchbags.
You are correct.
Not only was Saint John Moses Browning a genius the like of which only comes around at best once per century, but he was a true patriot.
Not to talk Browning down. But he probably made a huge Profit even with a flat fee
“They were selling these commercially in the 1920s” god I wish they still could
Imagine that, yeah I mount this in my pickup for hunting rabbit quail and duck lol
America, pickup & M2. American technical?
Sounds fun until you realize that even the standard fmj rounds are $10+ a piece.
On my APC I’d fire 1-2 round spotting bursts and once laid on 4-6 rd killing bursts with no more than two required. Very easy MG to clean after decades firing gas operated guns. My only concern was the small springs that broke in the top cover.
They were only sold to militaries.
"Bolt latch release" is the part that allows automatic fire, if it is not engaged, it will fire single shots, but the bolt must be released each time. I actually became quite proficient in switching the M2 from left to right hand feed, the infantry Fighting vehicle we were using at the time (1986-89) was known as the AVGP (armoured vehicle general purpose) aka the Grizzly, the great great great grandfather of the Stryker. The Grizzly utilized the one meter Cadillac Gage turret, on the left side was the M1919A4, which we called the C5, it was essentially the M1919A4 converted to 7.62 mm NATO from 30-06. Because it was left hand feed and could not be altered, the 50 cal was mounted to the right and obviously fed from the right. The triggers were controlled by solenoids, that is definitely a topic for another day, great review as usual!
Pro Tip:
If you cut the recoil spring of the M2 in half and put it in the M3 Grease Gun, you double its rate of fire.
And half it's service life?
Por que?
The single shot mode had another usage other than ranging: it was used by US Marine sniper Carlos Hathcock in Vietnam who fitted a sniper's scope on a M2 and used it for very long range sniping. In 1967, he made a kill recorded at 2,500 yards (2,286 meters).
The only thing that is just as amazing is that Browning started trials in 1918, had experimental versions by 1921, and the issues were worked out by 1933. More than 30 years later and it was proving that .50 sniping was viable, and the gun is still valuable on today's battlefield, 100 years later.
Growing up, my best friends dad was a retired Marine colonel, who told us a similar story from his time in Korea (he was a battalion commander at the Bunker Hill battle). Scavenged scopes from a couple '06 Springfields and rigged them to M-2s. He said the Chicoms would constantly probe their lines and was the best way to keep them at a good distance without revealing disposition.
This video shows the mod I've always wondered about...I've read 2 books a bout Mr. Hathcock's life, and always wondered about his superb accuracy....The closed bolt mod explains it...Drama writers often overlook the tech issues that us others wonder about..Great observation BTW.
All of our 50s had a mount on the right rear of the receiver. You could mount a NVD or scope.
When you need a heavy tripod, just get a Sherman tank
M60A1 and A2
Thank you Ian for a great thumbnail tour of the design, the gun, the teardown and the history. A premiere piece of engineering that has truly withstood the test of time. John Browning was a truly gifted engineering genius.
As the Chieftain said (might have been on your channel) "When Ma Deuce talks, everybody listens."
When I deployed to Iraq in 2005, my unit had 13 M2s. Two or three of them were WWII originals, manufactured by the "Kelly Wheel Company", General Electric, etc. Awesome weapon, which had no real replacement or equal for what we used it for.
The noise of a charging M2 is one of the most American things ever
Nothing screams feck you, more.
@@williamkeith8944 AMEN. The sound of liberty and courage.
Agree. Famous gun sounds include the ubiquitous Remington pump shotgun.
The *PIIIIING* of the Garand, the *CLACK CLACK* of a shotgun, the *click CLICK* of the 1911 and the *SHUCK SHUCK* of the M2 are the pillers of 'MERICA!
Or a 12 gauge pump racking up.
The Browning M2, a weapon so perfectly designed that not even a USMC drill instructor can find anything wrong with it.
yeah they can, it's too heavy for a marine to fire it from the hip (although I'm sure at least a few enterprising marines tried anyway).
It's not clean enough...
@@briant7652 nothing ever is.
Fired about 12 rounds or less at ft polk la. During AIT july/Aug. 1970. Never touched it again,even the 5 mo. In Nam as a 11Bravo. Awesome weapon!
A nice trip down memory lane for me. I was a Cavalry Scout and E-5 in Korea and was Track Commander (TC) for the Platoon Seargent. I was really good at walking it on to a target and staying on target. The M2 is where the old Army adage of when something went wrong it was, "Operator head space and timing."
Almost hundred years old and still a sexy looking gun
Mate, ian only looks like he is late twenties at most, but yes, i agree.
The M2 is cool as well.
Aged like a fine wine.
"it was too big of a gun to engage infantry with"
That's where you're wrong kiddo
I recall there experimentations on a versions that were made for hand held infantry against APCs and were equipped with a pistol grip.
@@marseldagistani1989 Heres a good little article from someone familiar about just that beast. haha. www.forgottenweapons.com/browning-m2-anti-mechanization-weapon/
More a case of there were better weapons to engage infantry with. If you have to shoot infantry with it, a lot of other things in your vicinity are already FUBAR.
@@brendanrobertson5966 like flying arms and legs?
@@killdizzle yes the HMG work just fine against enemy infantry.
But there are better weapons for that job. Like 7,62mm machineguns. Less weight of gun and ammo give you the ability to carry more ammo.
But as a gun on a vehicle it is a great weapon.
Probably one of the best and most detained weapon videos I have seen in a long time.
Great bit on the history of the weapon, as well.
The only things I would add:
Pictures of the different barrel configurations you mentioned. Also, you didn't mention the training barrels which had a baffle for reducing the barrel pressure for training rounds.
Also would have been nice to see the reassembly. I never had problems, taking it apart, but putting it back together, I remember it having some quirks. Is that in your next video?
Nice to see the old girl again, Thank you Ian. I served in the SADF . We set the head space with, 'Go= No Go' gauges. Tungsten carbide block that you screwed the barrel back til one side the gauge fitted and the no= go did not. slight adjustment changed the firing rate a bit. Our .30 cal MG's were changed. trigger group was changed to fire from an open bolt for more cooling and no cook off . Both are very reliable. Thank You Ian.