They stated the theme of Caitlyn's story through Ambessa: "We've lost so many. The anger. The sorrow. It's tiring. I know it's tiring. But, you will never rest knowing that she's out there. Or maybe I underestimated you. Maybe you have the strength I do not. To forgive and trust in tomorrow. The decision is yours, commander." We're going to see that play out going forward. When Ambessa picked Caitlyn as commander, my wife said: "Oh, that was a mistake" precisely because Caitlyn has a good heart and a good head on her shoulders. Even if she stepped over the edge from time to time, I don't think she ever truly lost that nor did she lose her love for Vi.
100% agree. You said everything a lot of people have not understand. This shownis so rewatchable, if people did they will see details they didnt even fathom
except you just have to infer all of that from one line because everything that they actually show of caitlyn is that she's just a bad person with no redeeming qualities.
@@eebbaa5560 I would suggest you rewatch it looking for details and nuance. Although this line is a direct statement, I could point to many moments where Caitlyn is not a 'bad person with no redeeming qualities'. In fact, she's one of the most kind and altruistic along with Vi - which is part of what I think attracts them to each other. Plus, you get to watch Arcane again, which is always good.
I think people misunderstood, exaggerated, and oversimplified where Caitlyn’s character was at the end of act 1 and throughout act 2. No one should’ve been surprised how easily she flipped on Ambessa in episode 6 because she was never that far gone in the first place. Despite her misguided actions stemming from her grief and hyper fixation on Jinx, she didn’t actually change who she really is. She doesn’t want violence to be the answer to every problem as she made clear in episode 4 and she still cares about trying to do good. It wasn’t a hard decision for her to believe Vi about Warwick being her father and doing what she could to help them. She even already made it clear how disgusted she was by Singed and his experiments. It was easy for her to realize Warwick was a victim
I agree. SO much of that is told through her eyes too.. after her mother's funeral, she really does have a glazed look to her eyes. I'd argue that even when she kisses Vi her eyes are fogged and she doesn't make eye contact with her. With Ambessa and even with Maddie her eyes are still hardened - we literally only see her eyes sparkle when Vi calls her cupcake. She's in so much of a haze that she only starts to buffer out of it months later. It makes sense to me that she folded as soon as she spoke with Vi. It was the real Caitlyn coming out after holding herself in for a long time.
This is the right answer. This issue is from what ive seen, stem from people completely misunderstanding of flanderizing her character in act 1. She never stopped caring about bystanders and innocents. She never became a warhawk, quite the opposite, she actively works against war throughout all of act 1 and season 1. When her mother is killed she has every excuse in the world to stop caring about the people of Zaun, but she doseant. She hates Jinx and the Chembarons, but thats it. She compromises somewhat in the hunt for Jinx but never to a state of indiscriminate violence, which she abhors consistently throughout all of Arcane. People who somehow genuinely believed Caitlyn turned vindictive powermonger either did not watch the show or let memes and fanon trump the actual show.
@@alexanderbergstrom4405 I agree up to the point about caring about bystanders and innocents. She did gas all of Zaun and was ready to shoot a child. You could argue that's the "compromise" you're talking about but I'd still see that as a "state of indiscriminate violence". Although you could probably discuss where the threshold lies (?)
The throw that Caitlyn does with Vi isn't completely identical to what Ambessa did. Ambessa unnecessary used excessive force at the end of the maneuver, twisting Caitlin's shoulder and intentionally causing injury. Caitlyn's throw did not. She's precise, measured, and methodical. And she has no idea at that point that it's Vi she's taking down. This shows us her character. She's not cruel.
Yeah, it's crazy to me that some people think Caitlyn deciding to side with Vi is illogical. For me, the opposite would have been illogical. Choosing loyalty to Ambessa in that situation, over Vi? When we've been given clues this whole time that she doesn't agree with Ambessa's methods. And also that she obviously still cares deeply for Vi. She doesn't care for Ambessa, they just happened to have been on the same side regarding Zaun and Jinx, nothing more nothing less. Also the end of act 1 is obviously Ambessa forcing her hand, Caitlyn herself didn't want to become any kind of dictator, and after that there is a time jump anyways.
Exactly! Caitlyn was shocked when Ambessa called her name. She was basically pressured into that role. In her mind, she could use martial law to put enough pressure on Zaun so they can give up Jinx, just like she tried to do with the Grey.
Honestly I think we just needed to see more of Caitlyn’s descent before she came back to her senses. The time skip really robbed her of the chance to explore her and Ambessa in depth. Usually Arcane can get away with being quick but that particular detail was far too quick.
That's not the problem tho. The problem is that Caitlyn's Act 1 was all about escalation, and there was not a single point of de-escalation. On the contrary, she was escalating, only stopped by Vi... and THEN she threw Vi away by her own will. Vi, who was symbolized and straight up told to be her only stopgap from doing bad stuff was removed, and then Act 1 ends giving her even *more* power... for Act 2 to already begin completely de-escalated, with her distrusting Ambessa from the very beginning Its a LOT of tell and very little show in Act 2, *that's* the problem. Siding with Vi is not *illogical*, it just feels unearned because Act 1 took its time to set things up, while Act 2 instantly dismantled all of that
@@felipecouto1102 I see where you're coming from, however I do not really share the same point of view regarding Caitlyn in act 1. First of all, what Caitlyn does in act 1 isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. Most of what we saw was her raiding Zaun gang hideouts, so in a way she was mostly doing her "job". As for the last scene when she shot at Jinx, she was confident in her aim and that she wasn't going to hit the kid (Isha), and everything up till this point told us that this was the case, she can aim and she knows it. So again, all she did was taking a shot at Jinx, which is not only her job but also what Vi agreed to ("if you see her, take the shot" or something along those lines.) The thing that we see is how angry she is, but that's where you have to consider the timing. Everything that happens in season 2 act 1 is directly following the rocket from the end of season 1, which lead to the death of her mother. Then just after that there is the attack during the memorial. She has to process all that in a couple of days at most, so it makes sense that she is angry in the moment. It doesn't mean that it has changed her personality. It's like a momentary state of mind. Then at the end of act 1, Ambessa forces her hand to become the commander, a position that she neither requested nor was really willing to accept without a lot of hesitation. This is where comes the important factor : the time jump. While so many dreadful events happen in a matter of just a few days during end of season 1 + act 1 of season 2, act 2 of season 2 starts after a few months of time jump, which was a good writing decision in my opinion. You have to assume that characters have had time to reflect on what happened during act 1 and move on from it. This is also the case for Jinx, as is shown during her dialogue with Isha in episode 4 ("Jinx is dead") and her monologue at Silco's empty chair. So why do some people understand that Jinx can move on in the span of a few months, but not Caitlyn? Right from the first scene with Maddie in the bed, you can see that (obviously) Caitlyn is way more calm and temperate after a few months have passed compared to the state she was in within a few days of 2 deadly Zaunite attacks. I think some people have an issue wrapping their head around that because they looked too much into the last scene of act 1, with Caitlyn doing the fist to chest move, and assumed too much from that scene. They assumed that it meant more than it actually did. They were expecting a full dictator Caitlyn in act 2 and that's not what the show provided for them. In my opinion they had their expectation in the wrong place. I mean, this was also intentional from the writers to lead us in the wrong direction and have us theorize on possibilites, and be surprised later when something different happens. But writers were also probably expecting that viewers would be able to move on from the false expectations they were mislead into as a cliffhanger for act 1.
@@felipecouto1102 but it did show, you can watch expressions, one thing i love about arcane si that its like a novel, on frist reading you may not get the whole picture, but upon revisiting it finer details come out. Fortiche has always beeen known for putting everything with intention, this includes, colors, facial expressions, actions, dialogue, etc. In many scenes caitlyns reactions and face expressions show us what she is thinking. For instance when she is accusing singed of being a monster, singed explains "why do people commit acts others deem unspeakable... for love" in that moment the camera shows caits expression and it changes on the word love. Even when she sees orianna her expression is shown as pensive. Althermore, on episode 6 the whole theme is about love, hate, compassion, how ion humanity it makes us commit the worst of acts and also the best of acts. Cait has realized what not letting go did to singed, making him a monster. Caits love for her mom is amking her do unspeakable such as siding with ambessa and pushing VI away, but that same love for VI is what makes her do good as seen in s1 of the show. Altogether, even though the show does lack explicit presentation of cait committing this acts it does do it not only trhought dialoguwe and expressions but also through the start of ep 4 in the itnro msuic where it can be seen a,mbessa motivates ait into furthering agression to find jinx and hten enforcers are shooting. Evwen though i would have prefereed it to be epxlicit and not in a music video, it still shows the studios attention to detail and to the symbolism of it all. sorry for the typos hehe
Caitlyn never came off as fully "turned" to me. From what we know of her incredible intellect displayed by her in season 1(that board is immaculate), and her constant friction with Ambessa(e.g calling out her man for being cruel to a Jinx fan) , I don't think it was fair for people to really just assume she was being manipulated so easily. I mean, subtlety is not Ambessa's strong suit and Caitlyn has always been a pacifist. Something interesting to me is that even in the grip of her grief, when she's expeessing her most hateful thoughts to Jayce, she has the self awareness to say "It's so easy to hate them..."
you said exactly what i wanted to say, i have been really confused all this time seeing people calling her a dictator and all but when i finally got to watch it myself, things really arent as bad as people described caitlyn is still caitlyn, just slightly affected by grief and loss of her mother and it was also clear to me that she wasn't 100% manipulated by ambessa like to me at least, people can pick sides for many different and even conflicted reasons, people dont have to agree 100% on something to side it
@@lensalmon3795 Caitlyn was using chemical warfare on civilians 😭 There’s a music video about how they use the gas called Grey. Let’s face it… Caitlyn is seriously messed up in the head or maybe the character writing is bad in season 2.
i feel like caitlyn never wanted to be a dictator. she only wanted to do what was right. her morals never changed it was stress and misguidance on ambessas part that lead her away from who she was. besdies if you think about it she was really forced into the position she was. it was an impossible situation.
Yeah, I don't think she did either and it makes me angry when people just write her off as one because that's just so shallow and shows they can't read deeper. Her mom just died. She's her mom's replacement(and essentially half the councils replacement as SOMEONE needed to step up until then found other people). Ambessa cornered her Infront of everyone bc she knew Caitlyn would crumble because she'd ask herself if this is what her mom would do snd to an extent(at least from what we've seen with her mom), yes, her mom would. She wanted to live up to her mother's image and it made her put aside her morals. She learned her classism from her mom, and there's no doubt her mom treated zaunites likes less, especially considering her interactions with vi. Caitlyn didn't uphold a lot of those morals and views before her mom's death but she felt like she had to after. That's it. So many people miss that. Ambessa manipulated someone who's barely an adult by using her recently deceased mother as ammunition, even though she never stated that. All of piltover rested on Caitlyn's shoulder in that minute so it makes a ton of sense why she'd choose Ambessa. It's what her mom would've done. it's what her side-chick wanted. It's what Piltover seemingly wanted. Why do people blame her for that?
You could clearly see Cait being unsure about Ambessa when they were training. The foreshadowing of her backstabbing Ambessa was when Ambessa was walking away after throwing Cait down, and then Cait stood up and attacked Ambessa while her back was turned. I don't know how clear cut you want it to be but actions always speak louder than words.
You Mean the same time when ambessa talked about honor and cait decided to be dishonorable, I interpreted that more as show that cait is still in a bad space.
@@Mars2519you mean the same people that find the use of magic abhorrent and wax lyrical about honor so that they can usually ensure that the strongest always win (hence the runes) Ambessa is not the type of person to be talking about honor. She is just as deceptive and sneaky as the rest. So if Cait is acting dishonorable to someone that has no moral ground to be standing on honor, I don’t think that says much about her mindset.
I seriously believe that the perception of Caitlyn suddenly becoming a "ruthless dictator" is kind of lacking ground. She was simply chosen by Ambessa as a temporary emergency ruler in a war situation against the Zaun terrorists who killed her mother. She never was a total straight-forward dictator seeking power and she was always very critic of Ambessa's ideas and actions.
The story beat you missed, that sets Caitlyn on a path of self reflection and potentially forgiving Jinx is the scene with Singed. Caitlyn comes at Singed demanding his motivation for such despicable acts. She finds out, that it is love that drives all people to act in ways despicable to others. The scene of the daughter reflects caitlyns mum in a coffin. Her expression goes from disgust to softness and understanding, followed by contemplative. By the time she runs into Vi, she has stepped away from leading to more of a subordinate role, her drive to hunt Jinx or anyone has already faulted and Vi provides the opportunity to escape the horror she had trapped herself in. The writing is subtle and what I love about arcane is how it shows you the story instead of spelling it out for you. I'm glad there wasn't a scene of Vi and Cait hashing out the pros and cons of saving Vander. That would have been too sledge hammer dialogue.
To be sure, I feel like the Caitlyn story line is a bit of a misdirection so far. I don't fully buy the narrative that Caitlyn was only out for vengeance. She somewhat reluctantly accepted the nomination of "Commander" probably more so she may act as a stop gap to the war hawks. Consider how bad things might have been if Salo had been appointed Commander. She constantly is looking to find Jinx, imo, to be able to end the suffering caused by the Martial Law. Caitlyn is very aware of Ambessa's manipulations, but knows her course forward is full of potentially lethal traps ( because Ambessa seems psychopathic at times). As a call back to episode 1 of this season, like she told Vi in the hallway, I think Caitlyn will admit that she bit off more than she could handle later on. By the time Caitlyn helps Vi with Vander, Caitlyn feels that the duo of Singed and Ambessa (especially if they get hold of Warwick) is the greater threat.
Oh yeah don't get me wrong, it's not all out vengeance against Jinx however, as Vi tried to convince herself in act 1, Jinx needs stopping in order to end the conflict. Caitlyn feels it's essential and Ambessa provides a means, even if she never fully agrees with her
I almost never see anyone reference that Episode 1 line "my arrogance led me to take on more than I could handle" and I feel like it really nicely lines up with Caits arc this season. Still grieving, throws herself headlong into catching Jinx, only to be called up to the role of commander and suddenly responsible for protecting not only Piltover, but trying to mitigate damage to the innocents in Zaun without fully making an enemy of the Noxians. All things considered I think she's handled it admirably but my girls gotta be exhausted 😂
I agree with this pov. Sure the choices Caitlyn made felt sudden but they were understandable. She decided to become the commander as a way to stop an all-out genocidal war between Piltover and Zaun. But then the inclusion of Singed making it possible to create more terrifying weapons for warfare had to force Cait to move quickly and create a momentary alliance with Vi and Jinx to fight back. But I still hope they address the issues between Jinx and Cait, Vi and Cait, Jinx and her followers, and Jayce vs everyone.😅
In my opinion Cait's meeting with Singed is the turning point. She realized that death and letting people go is the fate you can't stop it or if you try it get too messy/cynical to prevent the consequences. In this case she witnessed shimmer. She is intelligent, knew she is already in the trap of Ambessa, without Jayce, Mel or anyone in her side, who could trust her and give her the strength, she can not do anything. And the use of "death" in Arcane is something I love so much, it's something when happened you just can't rewrite it and if you try to do that there are consequences, also viktor curing everyone is not ethically right, or is it?
To build off this- I also think Cait’s turning point was meeting with Singed. However, I think she realized… his daughter may not even be ill. He may simply have frozen her, strangled her with stillness out of fear of seeing her grow and knowing that at end of life, comes death. And realizing that his twisted love, fear, and control was the cause of such horrors as Warwick.
@@Amoechick That's alright, but my point is in general her moral awakening about everything she is going through and so far the damage she has done as an excuse for revenge and justice rather than grieving and letting go the pressure of filling the shoe. She maybe in the process of finding Jinx killed someone's parent as well, the chain has to stop. It is like the sacrifice of rage attached to revenge rather than people itself. Hope that make sense.
@@Amoechick "He may simply have frozen her, strangled her with stillness out of fear of seeing her grow and knowing that at end of life, comes death." I'm sorry, but this is a stupid take. First he killed her, then preserved her, and then wants to revive her? Singed in the series is full of composure, logic, and wisdom. 🤦♂ If I remember correctly, then canonically she had some kind of sickness, which systematically "demolished" her body, and her organs 1 by 1 started to quit working.
I'm amazed at how many people think characters can't be the type to have internal thoughts different than what they convey on screen. I feel like Caitlin was never gung-ho on being a Dictator, Ambessa clearly orchestrated and nudged her into it; she allowed it, waiting to see what would come of it, if it would get her what she thought she wanted. It didn't, and over time clearly she started to second guess Ambessa and her teachings; she even gives her pushback during their sparring match clearly showing that she doesn't see Ambessa as this pure mentor who she should emulate to be, but simply another person who has a different outlook that maybe she can get some value out of, but also maybe she can't. She's watching and waiting, trying to discern; it's a valuable character trait, but apparently one that is lost on some audiences. Caitlyn isn't like Vi, she's not going to wear her heart on her sleeve and make her allegiances obvious and plain, she's a chess player and y'all are acting like she's playing checkers.
And Caitlyn has been shown throughout the series to be very discerning and intuitive. We see it with her being able to figure out crime scene events like a puzzle.
Eh.. I get what you're saying, but you can only attribute so much of a character to subtext and still have their characterization and beliefs discernable to the audience. In this case, if Cait was always having those doubts, why is it that up until she betrayed Ambessa, EVERYONE thought she was fully invested in being a dictator for the sake of peace? At least enough that it would be harder for her to have a heel face turn than just one conversation with Vi. The whole "it's clearly in the subtext, but most people just don't pick up on it," is a common defense of weak writing. Because it can easily slide into you inventing developments, thoughts, and characterization that isn't actually present in the media itself. Caitlyn and Vi fell out _hard,_ and they don't even get a chance to properly reconcile before Cait turns on the person helping her control the Undercity, which she still hates. It's one thing to have internal thoughts, it's another to not act on those thoughts at all. And without actions supporting this subtle characterization, how are we the audience meant to understand it? It's so easy to deflect criticism with "you just don't understand, it's all in the invisible subtext." But the fact that _so many people_ don't understand implies that it either isn't true, or the writing FAILED to communicate this idea properly.
@@DLxxx Who says Cait hates the undercity? She literally just wants to get Jinx cause her shenanigans led to her mother's death, that's all lol. She doesn't have this deep hatred for the undercity now which would be extreme. Prejudice is different from unrelenting hate and bigotry. And nobody with a functioning brain would believe that Cait was still fully invested in being a dictator, they literally showed that was not the case from episode 4 till she betrays Ambessa in episode 6. Some of you just need your hands held and nothing is wrong with that, but just admit it rather than screaming bad writing for things that are pretty obvious. The showrunners clearly want to tell an efficient story with little to no fat and that isn't working for some people, that doesn't make it bad writing, just not working for some of you.
im a big caitlyn fan and i felt like her arc was pushed to the side for.... things that feel like fan service filler? i dont understand why we needed so many vander flashbacks. i agree with u- logically caitlyn's actions make sense. but caitlyn, unlike jinx, doesnt tend to talk to herself, so we dont hear her thoughts. she doesnt lash out like vi. her expressions are harder to read- shes closed off and reserved. she is a VERY hard character for people to pick out, and shes been like this since s1- just look how many ppl completely glaced over her character in that season. thats why i loved act 1 so much- when given the time and attention, shes brilliant. but u cant just expect ppl to pick up on her cues like they do with jinx and vi. she didnt have enough emotional exploration in this act that the audience can SEE. so she feels rushed, and it felt like that to me too until a second watch. even me, who love her dearly and pay extra attention in every scene shes in, had a hard time picking up on her emotional arc. so i can't imagine how just someone who's normal about caitlyn would pick up on it on a first watch.
Agree with most of your points but nah I loved the vander flashback. Showed his humanity along with the dream all 3 of them wanted. Also shows why he fights so damn hard to live because that dream is worth fighting for.
@@erenja3ger871we know the type of person vander is. we got to spend time with him in s1 act 1. im not saying they had to cut all of it out, but him picking out vi's name? felt like fan service. i didnt need to know he personally knew vi and powder's mom. all i needed to know was communicated to me in the very first scene of the show. if they had time, sure, those flashbacks wouldve been cute. but they took so much time and completely threw us out of the pace of the current events and our main cast. like i said, caitlyn got the short end of the stick after her arc built up so beautifully in act 1 and her story felt rushed.
Caitlyn is a supporting character in this series, the relationship Vi and Jinx have with Vander is definitely not filler and way more important to this story. The whole thing literally started with Vander adopting Vi and Jinx after their parents died fighting against enforcers in a civil war against Piltover. You guys simply want this series to be something it never was cause your fav character wasn't given enough screentime. I would say Ekko is probably one of my favorites and think his story and potential ability is very interesting and yet we have barely gotten 10 scenes with his character in both seasons. Cause he is more of a supporting/side character in this series.
I agree with your first paragraph- I felt like they introduced too many new characters and sub plots that it took away from the characters we care about.
The real thing for me is how much of Act 2 for Caitlyn was entirely based on *Telling* instead of *Showing* , when her Act 1 was MASTERFUL in Showing instead of Telling. Act 1 Showed her escalation, with Vi as her only stopgap, for her to then throw Vi away and have a followup scene of her immediately being granted power, to enact *anything* she wanted, AFTER ditching the person that was holding her back... people saying other viewers misunderstood it feel like they are watching another show, because they always talk about how controlled and conscious she was at the last scene in Act 1, when nothing points to that. Then Act 2 tells us she doesn't trust Ambessa. It tells us she doesn't want to be violent, it tells us she goes against Ambessa at almost every decision... for a show that let's its characters face the consequences of their actions in such a raw way, that let Vi hit child Powder because of her grief, Jayce kill a child out of his rage, or Viktor kill Sky accidentally on his desperation, it tries *very hard* to not portray Caitlyn as actually committing bad acts in THE moment where she held the most grief, the least restraint and the most power.
i see where you're coming from, but i actually disagree! i respect what you think, but here's my thought is all: i also didn't think caitlyn switching sides was strange. but it never occured to me that the story was "telling" us this straight to our faces and it wasn't entirely based on that. caitlyn's eyes tell us so much, and so much of act 2 is also focused on her eyes when she's in frame. interrogating singed, her expression is hard, but you can see by the way her eyes look almost forcefully narrowed (masterfully done by the animators) that she's growing tired of keeping up this act of aggression. she's found information before without this force, and as she states later, force exposes you to risk. that statement in itself isn't really "telling", it's showing that in the most basic sense caityn has begun to refind what she's shooting for. she's realising that this approach isn't for the best despite her efforts. she's already weary of ambessa and a lot of that isn't even told, you can just see. moreover, the way caitlyn's eyes completely shift when vi calls her cupcake. that's an emotional memory she's tapped into after all this time, and it's where we see that softer side of her come out again. that also isn't told, that's just indicated by the focus on her eyes. what truly makes me believe it wasn't at all just tell was the way she acts when they're fooling ambessa. she walks in to a tent where she should be in charge as commander, but it is so clearly framed as her walking in on something she shouldn't have. even ambessa looks annoyed when she asks "yes?". cait's eyes dart from side to side in the tent from singed to rictus to ambessa, and you can see she finally properly realises that maybe she hasn't ever really been in charge here. her voice indicates as much when she says "it's ... vi." partially hesitation on the plan, yes, but it's also like a realisation that choosing to plan with vi was the right thing to do - because she has no agency here. none of that is told to us straight, as the viewer we watch in that moment as she realises what's happened. it's even evident when she sees jinx after being saved from rictus. she doesn't aim her gun immediately, even after saying "you!", especially when isha and vi walk in. she looks between them all, and does nothing to stop it, because not only is it humanising them, but that's family. family, for which she fell into this for. family for which she chose to help vi and betray ambessa. family for which she sees vi and jinx will always be, and seeing that vi has also come to this conclusion. moreover, she seems to have a similar reaction to isha as vi did upon seeing how jinx is with her. the episode rounds out with her holding vi like in s1, when she really did want to learn and help. that is an excellent summation of her journey even across the time skip without telling us step by step. it's also just in her outfits and how she carries herself - we see her at her most "vulnerable" with maddie at the beginning, but she's clearly not as comfortable as she'd like. it's night time. she shouldn't be up, we all know who she thinks maddie should be. her outfit until confronting vi is that imposing commander (and rather vampire like) look. hair down, collar up, visually this tells us she is in a facade of control. she is harshest when like this. but even in this form we see that callback to her detective skills in s1, showing she hasn't lost her roots. but by the end her hair is tied up again, wearing her uniform and with her rifle, creating much more openness and vulnerability with her. like i said, i respect your opinion! but i think there's so much visual storytelling and subtext there that saying act 2 caitlyn is based solely on telling might be dismissive.
@@mvpatbeingadisappointment6732 loved this analysis! I actually think this series is more show then tell and that's exactly why people feel there is more issues with this season then actually is.
@@sunfiwakeup absolutely! i keep feeling like im going crazy with lots of issues people seem to point out that never occured to me on the first watch or rewatches, but as you've put it and as i've seen (esp from reactors :/) people really like to be spoonfed information instead of using subtext and hence often times they write it off and lose valuable growth. i coudln't quite verbalise it but you've pointed it out perfectly. like the vi and cait scene with so many people saying it happened out of nowhere, but to me at least it seemed so obvious esp given what i said in my previous comment. if nothing else i thought it was at least clear it wasnt reconciliation but a common goal and larger enemy for which they set aside differences. caits arc so far too.
@@mvpatbeingadisappointment6732this is literally what I was thinking! So much of her character is through subtle details. As SOON as she’s the commander she goes very quiet and is very calculated and measured in what she says and does, she doesn’t have the opportunity to express everything she’s feeling she has to keep up with the expectations while also trying to find her own way of approaching everything.
Too much of what happened in Act 2 happened "Off Screen". That, to me, is the biggest problem with Act 2. Zaun losing to Noxus. Caitlyn and Maddie becoming lovers. Jayce - everything about him. Viktor creating a new "Firelight" place in Zaun after we're shown and told how unique and impossible people thought the Firelight place was. The Black Rose infiltrating Piltover. Etc. Maybe we'll get flashbacks in Act 3 (and we likely will, with Jayce) but the rest, I think, we're just going to have to go with the time skip.
@@hannanna1004 it’s on episode 5, after Ambessa frees Singed to work with him. I think Caitlyn found Singed’s lab location when she was doing research on him about being the creator of Shimmer.
I had no problem with Caitlyn siding with Vi. That all made sense to me. They've always had a connection and I don't think either of them would have discarded that connection, despite their initial break-up. But personally, I really wish we would've seen more of dictator Caitlyn instead of having that arc rushed through a music montage. That's a little disappointing
their connection was always made up for the story, they have no chemistry its just the madatory lesbian/gay love story (and now the only one in season 2)
@@laurentguyot3362 Merci, the desperate relationship was forced as hell in order to cater to the f/f shippers. The Arcane subreddit is a proof that the Vi/Caitlyn shippers do not care about actual consistency or chemistry. If anything Caitlyn had more chemistry with Maddie of all people..
@@laurentguyot3362what do you mean they have no chemistry, their whole lore is that they have chemistry… they are literally married in League of Legends! From s1 we saw their chemistry
I honestly don´t agree about us not seeing Caitlyn´s thought process. It´s all in her eyes. Right when you mention we should be shown the fact that she is conflicted in the training scene you show her clearly looking conflicted but trying to be subtle about it because she isn´t going to express that in front of her superior. Same thi ng with her encounter with Vi. We are focused on her expretion after she is told who they are really going after to show us that exact process. Before this season I rewatched season 1 so I am fairly certain of this. It´s a bit like how the third part of season 1 treats Jinx, we aren´t fully told about her thought process, but in the moments we see with her, we are at least shown that the gears are turning, which leads into the "family dinner" in the last episode. If anything I think the person the show should focus more on is Jinx. After she meets with Vander in episode 4 she imediatly goes to Vi... but why? I´m not saying that she wouldn´t do this, but after the last two times they met, her and Vi had their own declarations of "you are no longer my sister" I think it would have been important to show her thought process. Yes, none of them fully comit tto their declarations, but still. I think that´s what people mean when they talk about the pacing issues... It feels like there are chunks of some plotlines (including the main one with Vi and Jinx) that seem to be missing.
The reason she goes to VI is because of what she wanted she saw a chance to get her family back. Moreover, they both already had lost so much especially jinx that the fight with Vi where she wanted to die was like letting everything out. Both didn’t have more to let out they already lost basically everything. You can see they still keep their distance and still have issue but all that had to be said and done was done between them. Now the new conflict will be in how isha will affect jinx as a whole since she died. In the preview we see VI tells her her potential could be used for good but we don’t know for certain if this will happen. We can only wait
Also if I remember (correct me if I’m wrong) someone asked one of the creators this similar question and they answered saying all that had to be said was said. They basically already threw everything they had to say and do to each other and they no longer cared.
@@Maotrix-RandomGameStuff I get that, my problem isn´t with this being out of character, but with the lack of an emotional process to get to that point. After everything that happened, does she have doubts about if Vi will accet her? Could she not make a new family with her as the older sister now? Or does she imediatly, without a moment of hesitation look for Vi... we don´t know. Seeing Jinx´s expres her desiere to go to Vi before actually going ther would inform us about her character in important ways. It´s not just about getting from A to B but about how that road looks
@ I see so it’s more of a wish to see what was the thought process before going to Vi, I think while not necessary it may have been nice, but still you kinda get why she went there, she still has doubts of VI accepting her as seen in ep 6 when she asks VI if she really wants her opinion or when VI says they both should stay together and jinx responds with “we?” It’s kind of obvious she still had doubts but still went to search for Vi with hopes of getting her old life back. Also the time she spent with Isha gave her perspective on how her sister probably view her before as seen when she talks about how she couldn’t do much of what she did with Vi when she was younger.
“Act 1 had her establishing herself as a ruthless dictator” The problem is, they NEVER established this, people just ASSumed. She was put in a difficult situation of accepting Ambessa’s offer after seeing her save Piltover or reject it and piss off a Warlord. She didn’t go about wanting to Dictator anything. Both her and Ambessa were using each other; Ambessa for Cait’s connections and Cait to get Jinx and to keep her enemy close. We see Caitlyn pulling away from Ambessa incrementally from Episode 4. Seeing Vi was just the catalyst to get her to drop Ambessa entirely. The pacing is fine. Caitlyn’s character is the same one we got familiar with in Season 1. The problem is people can’t read emotions clearly and need things spelled out for them.
She gassed niggas up using her mother's technology which is meant to make the undercity breathe. Is willing to shoot jinx with a child there and feels utterly betrayed by vi. It may not have shown her as a dictator but the end of act 1 gives a promise that a more ruthless character than what we initially we saw is coming. And you're trying pretend that didn't happen
They want their fan fiction to become reality and when it doesn't happen, they claim it's cause of pacing issues or the story now being plot driven rather than character driven. To me, the pacing has been not just good, but excellent. It's efficient and doesn't waste time on any unnecessary scenes.
@@nostalgicbliss5547here it is: Not all opinions are equally valid either. It's like people who complain about "balance" in a game but they actually just want it to be made easier. Some of criticism is just the everything-is-crap brigade that social media algorithms reward because that's the world we live in. Some of the criticism is because people didn't "like" what happens to a character - regardless of whether it is required from a storytelling perspective. Aka "I liked Isha, what happened to Isha made me feel sad, therefore ". Some criticism is because the focus is not on a character or plot point that someone isn't as interested in. Aka "I don't care about ‹character a > I want to know about ‹character b> and all this time devoted to ‹character a> is preventing me from finding out about < character b>, therefore ‹insert most popular criticism>". Or some people are soooo into the story they just want more more more. But then that runs in a practical issue the writers have to adapt a story to constraints of the media it is published in. i.e. they have to choose what to keep or cut from a limited series - and what to keep or cut is based on what benefits the story as a whole, not necessarily what some of the audience wants (writing a story is not a popularity contest). Aka "You're not going into excessive detail about everything I want so it's even though doing what I want would blow out the show into a 20-season epic". All those criticisms (except for social media grifters) are perfectly fine/normal btw - it's actually motivated by people liking the source content, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a valid criticism OF the source content either. Tldr - people don't get what they want. The trending criticism of Arcane this season is "pacing". Therefore people are blaming "pacing" for them not getting what they want - even if it has nothing to do with pacing. ‹because humans>
@@Maotrix-RandomGameStuff You broke it down perfectly. Like you said, a lot of the criticism is people just wanting more from this universe. To spend more time with the characters they like. I also think it's cause some people got obsessed with this show after season 1 and waited three years with unrealistic expectations of where the story was headed. It gets to the point they believe the fan fiction in their head is better than whatever the showrunners end up providing. I also read a comment that called the Vander part of the story this season as filler lol. They honestly think Caitlyn is some sort of main character when it's obvious she is more of a supporting character. The story has always been about Vi and Jinx, with Viktor and Jace being the other main characters because of their connection to the Arcane. Viktor literally brings together Shimmer and Hextech as an unholy abomination and looks like he set up to be the main villain of the series which is tragic with how his character was portrayed in season 1 as very sympathetic. The rest of the characters are supporting and side characters. There are also some people on the internet who have this perverse obsession with shipping/romance/sexuality. They want the Vi and Cait plot to be the main thing driving the story lol. Some of these people seriously have psychological issues.
Regarding Caitlyn my guess is that you have to understand who she is. She's a Kiramman. Kirammans are bred and trained to take control and command. The first act of the second season shows us this. But Caitlyn also has an investigative nature. She questions. But at the beginning of the second season she is thrown into the death of her mother and how she feels totally responsible for it since she didn't take the shot. She wasn't even aware of the independence treaty was even a thing at the moment. Another thing that is hinted is that no matter how Caitlyn tries to deny it. The Piltover view of Zaun is seeping in through the cracks of sorrow, regret and rage. At the council chambers she still pleads for them, but after the Zaunian attack at the monument mass she goes over the deep end. The problem here is that this is no longer the advocate for Zaun here anymore. She goes full enforcer mode with little to no regards of how many people she hurts or maim in her quest for revenge. See episode 3. Because that's the only red hot rage in her heart at the time. That's why she needs Vi. And does anything to keep her all the way to the prize. Including manipulating Vi's emotions by kissing her. She might lock lips with Vi, but her mind, and heart, is packed with the image of Jinx with a bullet hole in her skull. That's why she doesn't listen to Vi at the battle at the end of episode 3. She craved her pound of flesh which was unfilled. So with the heart festering with an unresolved vengeance, when Ambessa suggest that she become the de facto dictator for Piltover (Roman style dictator) she grabs for it to take down Jinx any way possible. So when act 2 rolls in at least a year has gone. The glowing hate has burned down to ember. Her old persona starts to shine through the smoke. You notice this with her questioning Ambessa and her ways. Caitlyn starts to realise that the time with the Noxian army is finite. There comes a time when they leave. She's been the figurehead of the Piltover oppression of Zaun. With bells on. The people of Zaun will not forget. You see her old investigating skills starts to light up, you see this when she visits Stillwater after the Warwick attack. This also starts to make her question what Ambessa really is after. That she wants to put the beast in cage and not put it down confirms her suspicions something is going on. So she meets Vi again. And in a way, uses Vi again. Vi's mission is to confirm Caitlyn's suspicions about Ambessa. As quid pro quo she'll help with protecting Vander/Warwick. Then Jayce comes and spoils it all.
What made me fall in love with arcane was the family theme. Arcane has always been about that, and I'm glad they didn't neglect it. About Cait's character, I've always seen her as a secondary character since s1, so from the beginning I wasn't very involved in where her character was going, maybe that's why I didn't find her change strange.
Exactly this! Caitlyn is a supporting character and most of these people are more interested in lesbian romance than the theme about family which is the main theme of this show. The main characters are clearly Vi, Jinx, Jace and Viktor. They are the ones whose actions have driven the story from the beginning. Vander, Silco, Ambessa, Mel, Caitlyn, Ekko and Heimerdinger are all supporting/side characters.
All the characters are important and Caitlyn was connected to them since she appeared on the scene, she also has a family and represents very well the other side of the same coin as Victor said in the final line of act 2. Seeing her perspective in the story counts, and the series besides dealing with family explores the love of a couple as Christian one of the creators said, that they are bothered by the lesbian theme is another matter. Besides, they are all champions and since 2012 they were already in love, so that hatred and contempt is quite childish.
@@nostalgicbliss5547 eh, caitlyn definitely steps into the spotlight in season 2. she was def a supporting character in season 1 but she’s became a lot more important this season plot-wise. she led the attack against jinx, gassed the undercity, and became a military figure for piltover, she’s a lot more important this season.
I agree with a lot of your points. I feel like the issue with arcane isn't that the pacing is bad, but that it relies too much on show instead of sometimes relying on telling. To fully understand what they are trying to say you need to analyze a lot (such as facial expressions, motifs, and other symbols) which most people won't take the effort to do. A result of this is some moments not being as impactful or being misinterpreted. The issue you have with Caitlyn's scene turning against Ambessa has a point, but I think they cut it to build suspence and also because it was assumed vi explained off screen/ the change in Caitlyn's facial expression is supposed to show realization. Otherwise great video!
Caitlyn picking Vi/ going against Ambessa isn't illogical, unbelievable, or bad writing. It just happened fast and off screen unfortunately. It would've been REALLY beneficial for CaitVi + Cait's arc to have her decision to save Warwick be on screen. But oh well, could've been worse.
Maddie quoted Cait in the first episode: "If every enforcer had a heart like yours we could bit Noxus itself". Damn, Cait was against Noxus from the start! How people can think that she is with Ambessa?
Because it’s called show no tell for a reason. You have to make it clear. I don’t think she was with Ambessa however in fact her story line was rush. Funny enough I think she was the character who was more affected with only doing 2 season
Man, the more I hear about all the controversy and _anger_ apparently swirling around Arcane S2, the more happy I am that I left behind basically all social media for my own mental health lol. I watched the show, was absolutely delighted with it, and went along my merry way. And yet apparently people are spending their time getting super ANGRY on X that this one little plot point was too fast for them, or their ship wasn’t made canon, or what have you?? Geez. 😂
Your line about Caitlyn always having a "black and white" worldview reminded me of her scene in the rain with Vi, where Vi is arguing the black and white perspective that Zaun and Piltover cannot come together, while Caitlyn tries to convince her that they can. Later in the shower she's still thinking about it, shaking her head no. Her and Vi, and maybe the cities but she seems more focused on her, aren't mutually exclusive. She's pretty much the only enforcer we see being nice to the people of the undercity, so she doesn't seem to have as much of a black and white view of them as the others. While she does have some distrust of Vi, showing a bit of that divide because she's from Zaun or in prison, she grows past that throughout act 2. At the tea party she tells Vi that Jinx is too far gone, drawing a line between Jinx and Powder, an internal black and white. Then after Jinx killed her mom and the attack at the memorial, she regresses to a view more similar to the other enforcers of season 1, seeing the people in the undercity as less than people. A firm black and White, except for Vi. The person that once argued for that divide now proving it wrong. That was longer than expected but I thinks its interesting, looking at the characters through a specific lens and seeing what you find.
The music that plays when Caitlyn is pushed into power is called 'appointment of a general'. Ambessa is the general, that scene is about her rise, not Caitlyn's. Anyone who thought Caitlyn was going to be a cruel dictator on the side of Ambessa must have been asleep for the last season and a half.
how was Cait a black and white thinker in S1? She was nice to zaunites, even criminals, and she hesitated when she had the opportunity to kill jinx because of Vi.. She also made her compassion and peace speech with Ekko. She was inexperienced, but not a black and white thinker the way Jinx is for example.
07:42 This is one of my gripes with how Arcane ended. Powder killing her whole family on accident was a consequence that felt SO real, and it's one of the things that really hooked me into the show. The lack of consequences in s2 was a big letdown for me
I think the biggest problem with this season is it uses its pacing and subtle storytelling to kind of shock and surprise its audience as like a "bonus" to these character moments right? It's smart, because it plays into the limited amount of time that they have in this season. So not only do they have to build up their plot points less, they also get the bonus of having the reveal be a surprise and kind of exciting. Cait being good, Vander being warwick, Jinx coming back from being suicidal, etc etc. All of these could definitely have been explained better, but then you lose the element of surprise when the reveal happens. Now granted, there obviously are negatives to this, but I think Riot really did a good job of taking this limited screen time they had for these moments, and presented them in as ideal a scenario as they could have.
At least for me, when people say "x character changed motivation really quickly" I don't see it. I feel like the season happens over a longer time, at least a couple months. From Caitlyn being promoted to the end of Act 2, I think happens over at least a month, probably two or three. Based on Caitlyn's previous character, I can totally see her just being tired and wanting all this war stuff to end over a few months. Just my read into it
Judging by Vi's hair growth I'd say the act 1 - 2 time skip is like 6 months. Vi's hair went from really short to longer than Cait's if you look at it from the back.
I think that almost every step of the process logically and narratively makes sense, but I miss some scenes that let us just sit with previously incited emotions or that just let time pass in a particular scenario. Like, the only sulking we get to see Vi going through after she hits rock bottom is done through a musical montage, but we don't see like, some dialogue of her in that state. We don't see a fallout between Jayce and Viktor being built up after Viktor is brought back. We don't get to see him begin to rediscover himself while Jayce tries to make it up to him for time lost. We don't see Jinx and Isha develop a deeper on-screen relationship and as a result we have to get a musical montage of them being new-found sisters right before Isha's sacrifice. They are utilizing the same resource they used in the Ekko vs Jinx fight from season 1, and while yes, the visual style and scene as a whole tells us a LOT about their relationship, they hadn't shared 1 scene together before that fight. I mean, it's good that the scene carried, but Riot shouldn't use it as a get out of jail free card for under-developer relationships... Still love this season, but yeah, these are my major problems with it
Theres another issue maybe more with Ambessa than Cait, the story says multiple times that Ambessa actually trusts Caitlyn and maybe even sees her as a protegé. But we are told thar, Caitlyn says Ambessa taught her so much, Ambessa says Caitlyn is kin and Rictus says that Caitlyn's death will be a deep cut. But we barely see why Ambessa would ever trust her for a second, she is aways somewhat hostile to Ambessa.
I think Ambessa doesn't mind being challenged, she seems to respect people who stand their ground against her... since Mel completely pushes her (and her way of seeing the world) away and Kino is dead, she has no one interested in her legacy, other than Cait, possibly... Cait seems not to reject her teachings outright, even when she doesn't agree with them. I wouldn't go as far as to say Ambessa sees her as some sort of a stepchild, but she seems to enjoy the fact that Cait is somewhat receptive to what she has to offer... She probably feels at least somewhat misunderstood among the "Piltover softies" and she might not ever show it, but she must be pretty lonely
I agree with this take too, I also start to question why Ambessa would attempt to kill Vi while knowing she was the one who captured Cait's heart. There was no way she assumed Cait brought her ex-lover to be killed due to her being a "distraction", I mean if that is the case, she clearly wasn't thinking right via reasons you said and there's no way Cait would let that slide. I'm starting to think her character isn't very bright lol. edit: I assume that she was going to kill Vi after picking up the knife, unless anyone has different interpretations, feel free to correct me.
I think the reason they needed to cut the Cait/Vi scene short was to preserve the tension of whether Cait truly betrayed Vi when she presented her to Ambessa... if she clearly sided with Vi there would've been no tension in there... I agree that the season would've been even greater (though it is still awesome) if it expanded on certain themes/charater developments... my feeling is that they originally planned more seasons, but higher ups wanted to reduce it to 2, so they had to make do with that... and being the talented group they are, they still made it work. I might be wrong, especially since they themselves say that they planned only 2 seasons originally, but that can also be due to NDAs that don't allow them to talk about creative differences openly. Anyways, I still immensely enjoy the show and Act II kept me in a weeping state almost constantly 😅 Thanks for these vids! They help a lot in getting me throuh the week until the final act!
I don't think the higher ups were ever that much of a pusher on them. I think they legit focused on only 2 seasons, because the way it is going feels like they very much planned on these things from the start. The problem is that no one called out on adding that one extra ingredient needed to otherwise excellent setup and payoff. Either they got rushed, so they got through 95% of the way, but that left 5% noticeable gap.
Lets be honest in Act 1 Ambessa never truly attempted to convince Caitlyn to be on her side and become a dictator she just called her in front of every important house in Piltover and gave a whole speech as to why martial law was necessary for peace, Cait was grieving when she was pressured into that position, she never truly lost who she is at her core, a good person she also never fully trusted Ambessa and Ambessa knows this, that’s why she wanted to get rid of Vi because she knew that if she got back into Caitlyn’s life she wouldn’t be able to spark her desire for revenge whenever she pleases or sees her falthering, her mistake was believing that Cait’s desire for revenge was bigger than her desire for justice and peace (and her love for Vi) People also forget the scene where Singed explains to her why he did all those horrific things and he says “for love” its also important for Caitlyn’s arc but not that many people talk about it, Cait wants revenge, why? Because she loved her mom, she helped Vi and betrayed Ambessa, why? Because she understands Vi’s desire to get her father back (love) and because she loves her (even if they’re not exactly in the best of terms right now) I do agree that it could’ve been handled a bit better but in all honesty, the way they handled it would’ve been the highlight of so many shows that I can’t really complain all that much, we also still need to watch Act 3 to get a good idea as to how everything is gonna play out in the end In my opinion they would’ve benefited from a third season but that’s personal preferences, I agree with you it’s not the pacing
You mostly said what i said particularly on caitlyn. Here is my comment on a different video "Cait betrayal was definitely rushed. They were definitely seeds planted such as the time maddie tried to convince her in the bedroom, the time where she asked ambessa why is peace always the justification for violence and disapproving of rictus actions. We also know she was actually still lenient with the undercity if what she told singed about the prison. But the above are just that, seeds. Nothing bloomed from it. All they needed was a single confrontation betweet caitlyn and ambessa where we are shown caitlyn absolutely rejecting ambessa philosophy in some form then the scene with vi would have been fine. But i believe it's because of the amount of seeds planted that I give it a pass. Vi and jinx getting together i remember thinking it was a good but at the same time thinking it would have fit better as a season 3 thing As for isha I can understand your point but I can't completely support. Jinx was already warming up to isha and by the end of ep3 even saves her. Silco also never got development with jinx. We just know they came close giving the time skip and i was fine with it" Here are my added thoughts. You mentioned caitlyn was mainly helping vander and not just stopping her war with the undercity but I just want to add that even that still appears as rushed. Because caitlin has doubts with ambessa but she definitely likes or accepts her more than disagrees with what his shown. Of course your additional scenes solves that problem but i just wanted to add why betraying ambessa can still be off to some people. But yeah mostly good points. The episode hit so damn well that it's flaws can be overlooked. Its just that it's arcane so everyone demands perfection to the point that any flaw taints the whole thing to some people
with all due respect, i feel like this argument just shows how people don't pay attention to what they're seeing and hearing. it is clear from the start that caitlyn does NOT trust ambessa at all. she judges and cuestion her ways multiple times during the show. she never fully embraced this "dictator" persona that everyone around wanted for her
I think the time to show Cait breaking with Ambessa is when the soldiers are told to prepare to attack a hippie commune. The deft way would be body language right then. A more overt way would be later when Vi asks "who's out there?", prompting Cait to explain she's with an army she doesn't control that's about to do something really bad. I also still hope to see Cait show regret at using the gray to avenge her mom since it perverted her mom's humanitarian work. Isha hurts my suspension of disbelief. She literally fell out of the sky to join the story and she's way too young to do any of the actiony stuff. It sucks cause the way Isha heals Jinx is beautiful.
I feel that when people argue that it isn't the 'pacing' that is the problem and then argue around the semantics around it they kinda miss the point, and I'm not entirely sure if this is done because people genuinely do not understand what people mean when they say 'pacing' or because its some sort of bad faith 'ha technically that words means something else if you look at it this way so I am not going to engage with the actual criticism' kinda deal. So once again, when people say pacing issues, they mean that we don't get as much time with these characters and their stories as we would like. Not that the story is moving too fast (or too slow, or that it doesn't make sense). Yes, we all knew Cait was going to end up on the other side again. Yes, that makes sense. Does that make it okay that they didn't give us any time with her in her role as an antagonist? That we didn't address her grief first, or that she seems to be fine enough around Jinx to not even really question working with her? To some, sure. To the people who complain about pacing: No. The criticisms are the same, some people just use different terms. For me, I feel like this season is good, but definitely not living up to season one. That season felt mostly character-driven, this one feels mostly plot-driven. Without the characters (what I think you call beats), the plot just feels emptier than before.
Mostly we agree, I think my only point of difference is that people fall on arguing "just add more episodes/more runtime" which would obviously help but not necessarily solve the "pacing" issues, because time and pacing are two distinct things, and also they have the amount of episodes they have. The limited time doesn't mean it's necessarily doomed to have flaws, there are still creative tweaks to the structure that help offset the difficulties
Preach ! To me that was the most off-beat aspect of it. Transitioning from a character-driven narrative where we are invested in the characters' journeys to focus on the plot-centric narrative around Arcane and Hextech and how it transforms Zaun and Piltover sort of side-tracks the character arcs as something that happen in resonance with the major plot but goes out of focus in season 2.
Season 1 already established the character dynamics, we don't need any extensive development from these characters in the final season. Her grief was literally addressed throughout act 1 lol. Plus who says she is fine with working with Jinx? She literally didn't even know she was there until Jinx saved her from Rictus. And she reacted shocked and appalled just before everything went to shit. The issue is you guys want to spend more time with the characters which is okay, but just say that, rather than make things up that clearly are not true. And to me, season 2 has been better than season 1 so far, both act 1 and 2, let's see how they wrap everything up.
@@MI24CL3 At the end of the day, the show is called ARCANE!! That was always going to be the main plot of the series combined with the Vi and Jinx story. The main players in this series are Vi, Jinx, Jace and Viktor. The rest are supporting and side characters.
There’s another thing I want to point out, and I think it is most important, was Docs conversation with Caitlyn. Two points, the first was when he told her, ‘in my experience, no one in power is innocent.’ This is a primer to include her behavior in the later dialog where Caitlyn calls him out for his part in the death of her mom (it’s not specific but that’s why she’s ready to blow his brains out in that moment), and he says the same reason why anyone does what people deem unthinkable, and shows that he’s trying to revive his daughter. She watched Silco and Vi wig out over Jinx, heard Marcus insinuate that the one thing that mattered in the end was his daughter, and now herself has turned despot to seek revenge for her mother. That’s what we can confirm she knows, and seeing Vi trying to save her father, this monster she’s here to hunt and cage like an animal, its a reality check. But the details are far too subtle for most ppl to assume so much. I was explaining so many missed details to my coworkers that most ppl don’t catch because they aren’t looking for it. Like the cultish looking like brainless husks, or that Salo doesn’t breathe the entire time (the room is cold, and his breath never shows). It really feels rush because her despotic behavior is all roped into a very short music video not focused on her behavior at all.
Caitlyn was not ever agree with Ambessa! Everyone was gone, there was a chaos, she was alone and Ambessa was the only one present, she just got along for a while....
also how well Isha's thought process and emotional state is communicated as she's doing it. How certain they make sure you are that she knows exactly what's about to happen and yet how still childish she is about it, plus how they drag it out, yet it never feels gratuitous. It's a perfectly honed spear directly to the heart
My little pet theory is that there's nothing wrong with Cait's arc. As you say, it is functional and she stays true to everything we would expect Caitlyn to do, so why does everyone including myslef think it was odd. I think it's because Cait's promotion to Commander and the inactment of martial law wasn't done in the Enforcer office, but instead the way it was at the end of episode 3. What actually happened was VERY different from what the visuals made (seemingly literally) everyone think happen. Cait just became [insert your favorite authoritarian dictator here]. Which upon reflection is clearly not the case and while Piltover does become an oppresive police state, it's nowhere near what we as the audience would have expected based on the symbolism of that scene. As awesome and cool as the end of episode 3 was, I think it's the primary cause of the issues we all seem to have with Cait, and if it wasn't in the show or hanlded much differently, I don't think the audience would have had the same reaction to act 2 Cait. The symbolism of the scene just seems to have completely overriden all our expectations of Cait's character, even if her arc is perfect reasonable and within character. We all expected Caitlyn the dictator doing horrible things and what we got was just Caitlyn with more resonsibility. I think if you remove the scene at the end of act 1 or replace it with something less "She's going full Nazi", you have very few issues around Cait's arc, though you could just reasonably ask you didn't she just shoot Jinx the moment she had the chance.
I 💯 agree with your small addition to the Vi/Caitlyn scene, it would go a long way to earning the payoff of Caitlyn “switching sides.” I agree, I still think it works as is, but if anything acknowledging the tension of past events sells the ruse even harder because it implies that Caitlyn has considered VI’s position and is too hurt/in too deep to back out, rather than it being about miscommunication or a lack of communication. It also lends more weight to VI’s trust monologue, because it would, again, show that Caitlyn is choosing to trust Vi over her own misgivings when the last time they spoke it was her essentially saying “I can’t trust you, you sided with Jinx.”
Yeah, that's my thinking with it. Adds more tension but also more understanding, so people feel less thrown when the twist happens. At least that's my theory. You might write/animate the lines then realise they throw something else off in the story, but I think that little tweak works
That was a very clear and beautiful analysis. I had similar recommendations to solve the "Caitlyn problem". I feel though that most of the criticism people are expressing has root in the 3 episode act publication format. The odience it's not detached cause of pacing, but because we are worried they wont be able to close all the plotlines in the last 3 episodes. We are losing focus cause the time is running out.
In regards to Caitlyn, the scene in Singed lab was also an important time in her development and what I think gave her the push. She called Singed a monster for creating the abominations and shimmer and then she finds out he did all these horrible for his daughter. I have no doubt that she saw herself in Singed at that moment and that she is on her way to be a monster as well. Because even though (I believe) she was never ok with Noxus she still did bad things and might do more if she doesn't break that alliance off.
What I don't understand is why the writers insisted on trying to surprise us with the double cross. It's not the first time this season has retroactively explained something that happened by giving us backstory they could have just shown us beforehand (e.g. Ambessa goading Renni or Caitlyn learning about the gray). We didn't need the fake tension of "surely Cait didn't turn in Vi, right?" Why not be more straightforward and show us Caitlyn and Vi talking about Vander? Show Caitlyn slowly warming up to the idea, give us better insight into her headspace, have Vi or Cait point out that this might be their only chance to pull one over on Ambessa. I just feel like we were robbed as an audience of a nice, loving scene where the girls gradually realize they can be on the same team again. Instead that character beat happens offscreen. Why? For the main romance in the show? It makes no sense.
i don't think they were trying to surprise us. based on what we know about characters it should've been fairly obvious they had a ploy. while i think some of it was time constraints, it never felt like anything robbed to me. i think for caitlyn, who lost her mother but is starting to recover herself, hearing that vander needed help probably connected with her in a big way. she can help save a family like she couldn't do for her mother. it's not implausible that given the situation and her emotions they didn't need a super long talk about it
While seeing Vi taken into Ambessa's tent during my first watch, with no info other than what the show had given us, my gut feeling with very little doubt was that this was a trap for Ambessa. I knew deep down that if push came to shove and Caitlyn had to choose between the two, she would always choose Vi. That's why this swap from Caitlyn didn't seem wrong to me. The moment they bumped into eachother outside of Viktor's camp was quick, but regardless it was all the time she needed and the opportunity to choose.
It's so odd to hear people "struggle to relate to the characters", unless of course it's only the Piltovan characters they're invested in. Vi is trying to preserve her family after she lost literally everyone in Act 1, Jinx is gathering the courage to reach out and become Powder again, Isha is trying to support her found family by all means necessary, Singed's life revolves around saving Oriana, and Viktor is seeing the perils of trying to give aid unconditionally - that even if people can't take advantage of you, they benefit from the misery you mitigate and will stop you because of that. I think people neglect to realize Caitlyn is grieving. Her mom was brutally taken away from her, and she was thrust into this militaristic role by someone who's entire empire revolves on playing on such pain. Of course being able to spare someone else from the grief she still carries would motivate her, it gives her a course of action her moral center is far more comfortable with than the Noxian one she feels is closing in on her like a mold. I think the commune symbolizes not just a dream, but an escape from the past, just as it has for Huck, just as Viktor offers Jinx/Powder, it's something both sisters grasp onto because they don't want to be enemies, they don't want to be the villains in each others' stories. It's why Vi asks to stay there.
also, at 6:32 to 6:33, Caitlyn's face goes from "No, it can't be... Surely" and then pure shock in realization. So she realized what Vi was saying, that Warwick was (at that moment, still) her dad
My theory is that Maddie was involved on ambessa’s behalf to convince Caitlyn to stay in a position of power, and separate her from Vi’s influence. Which is what was keeping her character morally anchored. They were each others support so when they separated they broke down.
Show this video to tiktok because these people be calling caitlyn 'hitler'. Saying she was willing to shoot a child while not even watching one analyse video about that scene. I watched about that scene from Necrit and he explained it clearly and it also make sense.
I think all this confusion comes from that they were lacking in details and scenes that showed this logical evolution of Caitlyn. Like you said, yes it is logical what she did, but they didn't show *enough* of this character thinking and changing her mind to us the audience. Further as you shown the training scene with Ambessa, that then is reproduced with the fight with Vi, shows Caitlyn literally in sync with Ambessa. That is a powerful visual device telling us the audience Caitlyn is aligned with Ambessa further adding to the confusion that Caitlyn so EASILY swaps back to Vi's side. Little quips or verbal jabs are not enough to leave an emotional argument for the audience to agree with, it has to show us some more. And what they did show, like the repeated fight sequence, is actually contradictory.
Caitlyn is suffering from grief, and in the first stages of grief, you turn angry at the world ,angry at yourself or at someone you think is at blame, your view changes and you stop giving a sh**t about things you used to care, all you want is to stop hurting. But after a while you start to accept your love one is gone and you feel the only way to respect their memory is being the person they loved and they were proud of So her returning to her former self that quick is normal, she was angry and now she accepts her loss and she moves on , returning to herself, and doing her mother proud
I thought Arcane was doing good with saving time where necessary and 'show don't tell' until this second act in season 2. The episodes are suffering from being 1-4 minutes shorter than in season 1. Caitlyn has been spiraling down around this hate towards Jinx for months, how is it possible that she can meet Vi again WITHOUT asking about Jinx or mentioning her at all. Even a parallel to the shower scene at the end of Oil and Water to showcase how she was missing Vi and her regrets would have been great.
@ 3:37 No, they were not hunting. Ambessa with her soldiers had tracked Warwick with Singe's help to Viktor's area and they were waiting in the area for Singe to get a reasonable reply from Viktor for the request of Warwick without triggering a violent outcome. Ambessa had stuck her weapon in the ground, Vi spotted it, got suspicious/curious and followed Singe, hence running into their hideout entrance which Caitlyn was guarding.
I had no issues with Cait’s depiction. I understood her feelings and actions at every step. It was all clear and straightforward to me. I’m honestly surprised to hear/read that many people feel otherwise.
Pacing was extremely fast in s1, but we were introduced to something new every ten minutes, we discovered the characters as we went through the episodes, in s2 we know piltover and zaun and we know the characters. Even if cait can do bad decisions, it wasn’t even a year apart, people take year to make a drastic change, we know caitlyn and it would feel very forced to make her a full on villain dictator, her character is to defined to make such a shift in so little episodes. Character can have development, but arcane is short, they won’t have full on transformations I don’t look to arcane thinking how the character are gonna transform but rather how they will face the situation, how their personalities clash, not how they change. The inly realistic transformation is jayce as he lived seemingly years from when we last saw him
I felt confused by how much time had passed between certain episodes, and I didn’t like how many more characters and sub plots were introduced. I feel like it took away from Vi, Jinx, Caitlin, Jayce / Victor’s screen time, and I genuinely don’t know how well they’ll be able to wrap all of these additions up by the end.
From Act 1 Ep3 to Act 2 Ep1, 6 months had roughly passed. Jayce, Ekko, Heim & even Mel all disappeared around the same thing and Jayce’s return was roughly 7-8 months from the end of Act 2 (because remember Jayce had to make the Hex weapons) and Mel was there when Cait interrupted and shut him up to tell the remaining council her plan. The time passage then from Act 2 Ep6 to the return of Ekko if you pay attention to Heim when Ekko has asked how long they have been gone it’s been over 1000-1100 days thy have been missing since they time traveled.) So when they solve the reverse of Jayce’s time dilation equation that’s the part of the equation that Jayce started with first since the tune he was give (the one in his bracelet) was the rune that gave function to time travel. Jayce and his mom where not transported very far distance wise in Jayce’s Season 1 background but the mage did accelerate time where winter became spring and it’s that rune that Ekko fixated on for the z-drive to work. So when he returns he’s been gone roughly a year +/- a few months and of course he’s rewinding time in 4 second intervals with the z-drive but the contraption Heim steps out of is a World Rune like the z-drive one that’s floating around but it’s been amplified and has taken on a more massive shape to successfully replicate the z-drives functions but over a much longer time period. Maddie barging in and Cait telling her to leave allowed Maddie to relay to Ambessa what she felt their strategy was going to be which gave Ambessa and Singed time to create their apex shimmer soldiers, and get Victor evolved to Trojan Horse his shimmer/hextech/void corrupted cocoon like the one he was shot and killed in, but Ekko’s return right at the climax of what was looking to be a loosing battle and getting through to jinx causing Zaun to charge the gates allows for this timeline to be closest to how things played out. So Cait and Vi were apart roughly 6 months after A1Ep3 with Jayce returning around a month later same as Mel’s successful escape from Black Roses’ Occularium. Hope that helps!
I've heard a lot of people try to justify Caitlyn's heel-turn and the lack of a real "dictator arc" by saying that it all happened in-universe during the time skip and therefor it isn't out of character because, by the time we're seeing her again in episode 4, she's already begun to mistrust Ambessa and is searching for a way out. Which essentially means that her whole fall-from-grace arc happened off screen. Which, I just...how does that make it better? It's not a character arc if we never see it happen.
Caitlyn never did a heel turn. She started compromising and making bad calls, thats it. She never stopped caring about people, Zaunite or Piltie. She never became a warmonger, she has actively dissented the question during the whole show. She is exclusively focues her hatred on Jinx and the Chembarons. A focus/obsession which makes her call worse shots and partially blinds her, thats the isssue. If you believe she somehow fundamentally changed at some point in act 1 and decended into a moral abyss, either the dictator memes got to you or you projected something on the screen that wasnt there.
While it is hard to inagine Caitlyn completely turning over. You have to admit there's probable cause for confusion on the writer's side which played into the warmongering narrative by showing she was willing to bypass collateral damage on Isha to get to Jinx. While you could argue she trusts her own skills that much, an enforcer should still know better than that.
@@MI24CL3 Her compromsing and putting on blinders in her pursuit of Jinx, especially at a critical moment is a part of Caitlyn issue, absolutely. That does not at all translate to her turning into a vindictive autocrat out to punish the people of Zaun as a whole. Never in act 1 did I see that either happening or about to happen. Caitlyn compromising and acting progressively more without caution, yes. Bloodthirsty and vindictive, absolutely not.
It doesn't make it better. Personally I think they went too hard on ep3 so people feel cheated. But you know what, I'm starting to think it's not that much of a bad thing. Because we already saw caitlyn breaking the Geneva conventions from ep2 and 3. All we will get is this on a greater scale. Granted a part of me can't help but think they didn't show this to make us keep liking her which is not something I'm a fan of
@@alexanderbergstrom4405I don't believe you can completely fault anyone for thinking she made a face heel turn after the end of ep3. Jinx and the chembaron stopped being the only focus of her hate when the memorial was attacked. Jinx is just the main one. That's the problem with all this. Her mother got killed by zaunites and she felt her gf betrayed her. 100% everyone and their grandma would think she did a face heel turn after act 1 conclusion. But then as the video said, act 2 came and focused on different things and even did a time skip. The only reason I forgive it is because I think she would do what she did in zaun initially just on a greater scale.
I hear what you're saying around 8:00, hoping Jinx Vi and Caitlyn get some consequences. But I can see the real story being that all those squabbles are meaningless relative to the relentless destruction of impending Arcane via the wild runes
imo, what we see at the end of episode 3 (the flashbacks, the way the assasination unfolds) was actually in Caitlyn's head. since she has great deductive skills, she has already connected the dots and saw Ambessa's motive, but she couldn't make a good decision in that moment, so had to swallow the bitter pill and accepted the offer as commander. Caitler, but not really Caitler.
This episode is my favorite of the whole series (so far). And yet my initial reaction was disappointment and anger. I was projecting what I WANTED to happen and judging off that. Time and rewatches changed my opinion dramatically.
I was first confused with the sharp turns of Arcane S2. We were gearing up for the Zaun-Piltover war for several years between the seasons and now it's just a different conflict all together. But I quickly realised that this is actually so life like. Even huge problems sometimes fade in the face of enormous problems. Sometimes your dad has cancer and you're trying to do everything to have him cured and then a full on war starts in your country, which does not erase your feelings about your dad's situation, but it does make things and priorities very different (talking about myself). And similar logic works for the Cait arc. As people we love to see stories that have everything unfolding as a story should. But in life we do not get everything spelled out for us. It's all chaos of good and bad and everything inbetween. Sometimes it's worse. Sometimes it's better. But we can look for and find what we can make of it. When Vi decided to tell Cait about Warwick/Vander (she could have lied) she did not know the whole story of Caits pass throught the years they were apart. But she remembered Cait pre episode 3 and put all her faith in that Cait. So not having Cait's flip spelled for us SUUUUUper obviously is sort of how this happened for Vi. She sat on the image of Cait from the episode 3 for several years and then they meet and Cait offers help.
It’s also hard when the whole first act felt like it pretty much centered around Caitlyn, and then act 2 we saw very little of her (BUT it’s worth it for the Warwick story and it makes sense!)
Tbh Caitlin had no tyrannical inclination towards her reign so whats to atone for. Im more in favor of Jinx receiving major repercussions because she's literally a cold blooded murdering terrorists but because zuan idealized her actions thanks to Isha she's looked at like a hero. I mean Cait fights for peace more than Jinx does yet Cait gets the hate for some reason.
I tend to agree. As much as I've been enjoying seeing a softer, more playful side of Jinx this season, people tend to forget she's done A LOT of bad things last season she still needs to atone for (namely the murder of Piltover enforcers, councilmen & even some members of the Firelights).
All cops are bastards, Caitlyn also comes from a position of massive privilege. Fuck her and all her cronies. Vi is also not immune to this criticism, she is in fact the personification of police brutality in LoL.
4:57 Not to mentionthat she probably did not attack Jinx there because of Vi. Capturing Jinx is important to Caitly, but Vi's happiness is even more important to her. I think that is also why there is no "you did not tell me, you were working with Jinx"-bullshit in act 3. Caitlyn knows Jinx is important to Vi, being part of her family....even after all the things Jinx did.
6:24 Excuse me, what? Leaving this scene longer is absolutely unnecessary. I guess the creators thought their audience was smart enough to not need hand-holding. It would just be insulting the viewer's intelligence. Before seeing this video, I had no idea that there were people who apparently didn't understand the connection between Caitlyn - whose driving motivator is the death of a parent - wanting to help a loved one whose driving motivator is the desire to undo a parent's death. If Caitlyn had the option of undoing her own parent's death, of course she'd do that too. It seems blatantly obvious to me why she would choose to support Vi in this. And I'm really not someone who normally picks up on any subtlety, so I've got to conclude that this wasn't subtle. Even something as minor as changing her facial expressions during her interactions with Ambessa would be detrimental to her characterization. The show gave us enough to let us know that she isn't fully onboard with Ambessa's ideology, and then proceeded to make it believable that she doesn't view herself as a victim of manipulation. If her facial expressions were constantly "questioning," it would paint her as much more vulnerable. She didn't buy into Ambessa's talk, but she did have confidence in her own judgment and her own ability to get the best out of Ambessa while discarding the undesirable parts of her mentorship. Ambessa also got to her in a time of emotional vulnerability, but time heals all wounds, and that vulnerability wasn't going to stay there forever. Ambessa is not a master manipulator, who could have prevented Caitlyn from finding herself again. The question was never "will she turn against Ambessa?" but simply "WHEN will she turn against Ambessa?" Vi simply gave her a good reason to choose THAT moment.
I don't think Caitlyn's arc in act 2 doesn't make sense, she always had her doubts about Ambessa because she isn't a fool, everything that happens makes sense with what we were presented... but it could have been so much more. The fact we never see any follow through on Caitlyn becomming a dictator bent on revenge is so dissapointing, right now sue has very little to atone for because seemingly all she's done is be indifferent to Ambessa. She even confronts Ambessa about the brutality in the prison, implying it's not something that's been happenning regularly to her knowledge. Ambessa was the one at fault for everything and Cait was only a bystander as the show presents it. It would be so much more interesting if she had agancy, if we got to see her spiralling and actually committing amoral acts of her own, thus giving her character more of a morally grey nature. It's frustrating because her arc in act 1 of getting her to this point was actual perfection, it blew me away and made me more excited to see what would happen next than almost anything, taking the love interest from the first season with minimal development and taking her to a place where she can logically become the villain for a while, it was brilliant. And then they wasted it, I don't think anyone would mind how she was handled in act 2 if her setup in act 1 wasn't so brilliant. Everything else can I believe be fixed by act 3, if she has a real reaction to Jinx and that conflict remains critical, it can be made better, but there's no way to fix the wasted potentual of her plotline in act 2. The one actual complaint I have relating to what was actually in the show rather than what could have been is that in the shot where they exit the tent, she's standing next to Jinx and she has her gun. It's not that she should have shot her right then and there, but having her look away as if it was any random character was weird. If in its place, we had the same shot, only Caitlyn was stairing intensely at Jinx, only taking her eyes off her when Warwick goes rabid and Ambessa turned up, it would feel like the conflict was still very alive. I think Cait is too senseable to try and just kill Jinx in this scenario, but she should not be casually taking her eyes off her. For the rest, time will only tell. I honestly don't think episode 6 was a good place to have the break, it hasn't increased hype, it's just allowed a lot of us to turn sour, and at this point, even if act 3 adresses everything, our memories of the season will always be marred by rememberring the weak we were dissapointed for.
Ambesa says Vi left a hole in Caitlyn that she was able to fill. Maybe Mels disappearance left a hole in Ambesa that Caitlyn was able to fill? When she sees Caitlyn with Vi and Jinx, she looks more shocked and betrayed than if she was just using her. She obviously is manipulating her, but maybe there's a little more to it?
Whole series is finished now. And there wasn't alot of those 'consequences' for any of the characters. (Which is different than narrative consequences of course. Or the narrative portrayal of what was correct.) And I think that's on purpose. I think between the points of 'forgiveness' and 'change'. With even Mel not trying to completely doom her mother to the Black Rose's mercy. There was a statement here on how shallow punishment can be, and perhaps a tendency we can have to overvalue the practice. That scene where the Piltover officer is helping the Zonite elder onto the train particularly comes to mind for the communication of this message. Thoughts?
I wouldn’t say it’s ruined and we do have a third of the show left, but at least with what we have, I will say that s2 isn’t the near perfect masterpiece s1 was. It’s more of a flawed but great season so far, it’s just a shame it couldn’t keep that sky high bar going.
@@thecod2345 yeah it's not like the critique is that it's bad -- it's mostly just people saying it's great but not as perfect as season 1. Not bad at all, I'd say😂
6:05 Doesn't Cait arguably try and kill Ambessa in this scene? What if she hits more than her cheek? I dunno I always saw that moment of Cait striking back in a deadly manner as her at least subconsciously being against Ambessa.
I think the fact that we never see jinx and vi hashing things out is part of the poetry of that episode. They aren’t fully developed individuals. I dont mean that in terms of their characters, but as people. Theres an impossibility to this commune, it can’t work. And their coming together is as thin as anything else here. And in order for them to truly unite it would take far far greater effort on both their parts utilizing the skills they have, not demanding skills that they both very much do not have - which would be talking and working through things like that. They are action based, and it will take a lot more for them to come together than the offer of tranquility and peace. They’re not tranquil people no matter how much they’d like to be. And thats the tragedy.
The parts of Vander's backstory is already laid out in the first act of first season. Vander was known as the 'Hound of the Underground '. This is a fighter title. He has trained Vi in boxing since even before she and Powder lost their parents. The 'Hound' part alludes to 'feral' component of his fighting style. Never back down, huge levels of pain resistance and relentless and probably rather short tempered. So the beast he was transformed into probably aligned more with his inner self than you can imagine.
honestly i agree with the "moving too fast" part. I still love Caitlyn and dont get the recent hate she's been getting, but i do understand that feeling of.. "Woah, okay, didn't know you suddenly felt that way" towards Cait.
Overall, I really dislike the feeling of being confused and not knowing if you "should" be annoyed with the story because "the season isn't over yet". It takes me out of the story and I'm sitting there waiting for some kind of clarity of how to feel, because those confusing things just keep gnawing at me. This wasn't an issue in season 1, because the character beats were clear, they didn't hide things from the audience like the whole "why did Jayce and Mel survive the explosion unscathed even though they were in the direct line of fire?" I couldn't tell if they had just retconned their positions, if they had plot-armour, or if it was an intentional thing because the characters didn't express any incredulity or confusion over it. Just as an example. It kept bothering me all the way until *act 3* which I think is *way* too long to give answers when you can't even tell if it's intentional or not. Then there was the confusion around why Jayce killed Victor. Even at the end of the series I didn't feel like I understood why he did that because it only seemed to *cause* Victor to become genocidal, when he had up until then been this magnanimous, peaceful Jesus-figure. It was as if Jayce was the cause of the chain-reaction of destruction, and I kept waiting to understand what he was trying to do and why. It took so long before we could catch up with him and how he remotely got there. It mostly showed us the practical ways he got there, not how he got to the point of deciding Victor had to die to fix it. That world he was trapped in was the result of the Victor he triggered when he attacked him. Victor hadn't shifted his perspective to thinking "everyone needs to be the same so there'll be no conflict" until the destruction took place. Then at the end, future Victor waffles on about why that "everyone needs to be a hivemind" perspective sucks, but he didn't even have that stance until Jayce attacked him? There were multiple things like that this season where they create these confusions, and you don't feel like you're experiencing the story alongside the characters like in season 1, but rather you're always working overtime trying to keep up with them. I think it's telling that people had a hard time understanding the character progressions in season 2, but there was very little confusion in season 1. I'll have an easier time probably when rewatching season 2, cus I'll have the clarity that they held from us throughout the season, but it was very frustrating the first watch. I love Arcane, so obviously I want to enjoy it, because I really like how they write these characters. I just wish they had prioritised less surprises and shock value, and trust the audience to be interested in the characters enough to not hold information hostage in ways they didn't do before. They know we're invested as f*ck. The moments in season 2 people seem to love the most are those when we're experiencing them alongside the characters and we aren't wondering what's going on. There's suspense in the way they did things in season 1, where we know the characters motivations and how they *will* clash any moment. So the confusion all just seems so... needless. And that's frustrating.
I think the reason we never get to see jinx and vi have a deeper argument has to do woth the fact that arcane does not exoist in a vacuum. It depicts the past of characters that have well established lore already, so we do know where they eventually end up. Vi and Jinx dont ever get to really reconcile because in the present, which is still quite a few years after the events of arcane take place, they still dont have a good relationship. Cait and Vi are still hunting her and jinx is still causing mayhem and destruction where ever she goes. Of course some of the story has already been changed to create a more compelling narative, but it qas confirmed that arcanes events do not contradict the current state of the world of runeterra and simply take place in the past, so jinx and vi will never get to be a happy family in the end.
It really hurts me when people overhate Caitlyn. Caitlyn got kidnapped while naked by Jinx, then watched as Jinx dropped a gun in Vi's lap and get rid of her, then watched Jinx blow up her mom. Then, at the memorial, they get attacked. And people act like she was just going to be like "oh okay." People are quick to call her a facist or a dictator, and they use The Gray against her, but she didn't gas the entire undercity. She did it to get Jinx and to dismantle Shimmer. She was also wildly manipulated by both Ambessa and Maddie. She didn't choose to become a Commander, Ambessa saw her as moldable. A lot of people are saying that because Jinx had more trauma that Caitlyn is just a bad person and character. Most would've gone off the rails, but Caitlyn's good heart won in the end. The same people that preach "your trauma is valid!" are quick to hate Caitlyn and quick to forgive Jinx. Caitlyn got kidnapped, and her captor killed her mother. Then the same person who kidnapped her and killed her mother is hailed as a hero. She's not wrong for going after a criminal. Of course, she's not perfect and made many mistakes, but if we can forgive Jinx, we should be able to forgive Caitlyn.
Its not the pacing, it's actually a slower act. But it doesn't use that time to focus on the things it should have Cause Caitlyn is just one of these examples
This is exactly the wording I was looking for but failing to find, thank you! More runtime would obviously help solve some issues but it doesn't magically fix pacing, that requires better structure and focus
I just feel like most of these so called fans have been obsessing over this show for 3 years, theorizing about things they made up in their own heads, that they want the show to fulfil their fan fiction. The only criticism that makes sense to me is spending a little more time on Darth Caitlyn and showing how the martial law in Zaun began, with Caitlyn becoming more doubtful of Ambessa's methods. The show has already shown Caitlyn to be very discerning and intuitive, we see this in season 1 and season 2 when she is looking over crime scenes, she quickly puts things together and usually comes to the right conclusion, at least when she is not clouded by emotions. I can understand people wanting to spend more time with these characters and fleshing out all the storylines, but season 2 to me has been the epitome of efficient storytelling. No wasted scenes used for filler content or unnecessary fan service. There are also people that want their hands held through everything, those types will always complain when things are not spoon-fed to them.
6:50 i think it was perfect as it is. i don't think cait and vi would have a heart to heart talk after how things endeed. i think the love they felt for each other is enough to say a few words and do big actions
Ironically, I had less issues with Act 2 over Act 1 when bringing up anything in regards to pacing. I find it funny it's the opposite of a lot of other people. Part of that problem of "pacing" for me however, is the fact Season 1 had a LOT of moments of two characters having conversations with each other, ones where you get a deeper connection forming or you as the viewer can sit with it on an emotional level. Season 2 has a LOT less of that, and as such many parts feel like they are flying by a bit faster than the previous season. I do agree that certain aspects should still need to be dealt with between characters and the regions of Pilt and Zuan, though if it ends up happening how I'm currently thinking it might or might not happen since in my mind I'm guessing Ambessa is going to try and forcefully take over Piltover after losing everything that matters to her and perhaps some in Piltover side with her, but Zuan has to act as the rebellious side where many are helping fight to oust Noxious forces. I could be completely wrong, and I'll know later tonight, it'll be interesting to see how they are choosing to end this conflict and what the Arcane is going to do in this situation and the results. Regardless though, I still feel Season 1 is a more powerful and stronger paced season and unless Act 3 does something special with itself, I'll likely continue to feel that way. Season 2 isn't bad in any way, just not 100% what I was hoping for. Pacing or not. Also I disagree about Isha. I fully believe she understands and grasps it. She was likely forced to grow up in certain ways living in Zuan, a lot of people forget this, and she recognizes what she's doing and what the result will be. She is still a child, so that lack of experience and some naivety exists of course, but there was a need that she saw and someone who inspired her to be more than what she was. She was forced to grow up in that moment and make a choice. And she did.
see i understand why caitlyn was ready to betray ambessa. the show made it obvious how little they trusted each other, and caitlyn's morals are too strong to side with noxus. ep. 6's flip is not surprising. but i found it so painfully unsatisfying. when caitlyn was sworn in as commander in that intense ending to ep. 3, and i expected to see her commit to the role. but no, her dictator arc is crammed into a 2 min musical montage and the first scene after her appointment is her DOUBTING herself. she's already tired of the power. that is so deeply disappointing to me as someone who wanted to see that arc play out naturally
i find it surprising that people find that many flaws with act2. personally i loved it, especially because ww is my 2nd main and the blood hunt scenes were fantastically done
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They stated the theme of Caitlyn's story through Ambessa: "We've lost so many. The anger. The sorrow. It's tiring. I know it's tiring. But, you will never rest knowing that she's out there. Or maybe I underestimated you. Maybe you have the strength I do not. To forgive and trust in tomorrow. The decision is yours, commander."
We're going to see that play out going forward. When Ambessa picked Caitlyn as commander, my wife said: "Oh, that was a mistake" precisely because Caitlyn has a good heart and a good head on her shoulders. Even if she stepped over the edge from time to time, I don't think she ever truly lost that nor did she lose her love for Vi.
Exactly!
So true, Moonbyul 😆
100% agree. You said everything a lot of people have not understand. This shownis so rewatchable, if people did they will see details they didnt even fathom
except you just have to infer all of that from one line because everything that they actually show of caitlyn is that she's just a bad person with no redeeming qualities.
@@eebbaa5560 I would suggest you rewatch it looking for details and nuance. Although this line is a direct statement, I could point to many moments where Caitlyn is not a 'bad person with no redeeming qualities'. In fact, she's one of the most kind and altruistic along with Vi - which is part of what I think attracts them to each other. Plus, you get to watch Arcane again, which is always good.
I think people misunderstood, exaggerated, and oversimplified where Caitlyn’s character was at the end of act 1 and throughout act 2. No one should’ve been surprised how easily she flipped on Ambessa in episode 6 because she was never that far gone in the first place. Despite her misguided actions stemming from her grief and hyper fixation on Jinx, she didn’t actually change who she really is. She doesn’t want violence to be the answer to every problem as she made clear in episode 4 and she still cares about trying to do good. It wasn’t a hard decision for her to believe Vi about Warwick being her father and doing what she could to help them. She even already made it clear how disgusted she was by Singed and his experiments. It was easy for her to realize Warwick was a victim
I agree. SO much of that is told through her eyes too.. after her mother's funeral, she really does have a glazed look to her eyes. I'd argue that even when she kisses Vi her eyes are fogged and she doesn't make eye contact with her. With Ambessa and even with Maddie her eyes are still hardened - we literally only see her eyes sparkle when Vi calls her cupcake. She's in so much of a haze that she only starts to buffer out of it months later. It makes sense to me that she folded as soon as she spoke with Vi. It was the real Caitlyn coming out after holding herself in for a long time.
This is the right answer.
This issue is from what ive seen, stem from people completely misunderstanding of flanderizing her character in act 1.
She never stopped caring about bystanders and innocents. She never became a warhawk, quite the opposite, she actively works against war throughout all of act 1 and season 1. When her mother is killed she has every excuse in the world to stop caring about the people of Zaun, but she doseant. She hates Jinx and the Chembarons, but thats it. She compromises somewhat in the hunt for Jinx but never to a state of indiscriminate violence, which she abhors consistently throughout all of Arcane.
People who somehow genuinely believed Caitlyn turned vindictive powermonger either did not watch the show or let memes and fanon trump the actual show.
She is such a bad dictator that she banned the use of the lower floors of the prison with terrible conditions...
@@alexanderbergstrom4405 I agree up to the point about caring about bystanders and innocents. She did gas all of Zaun and was ready to shoot a child. You could argue that's the "compromise" you're talking about but I'd still see that as a "state of indiscriminate violence". Although you could probably discuss where the threshold lies (?)
@@Yeneney I honestly don't think she was 'ready to shoot a child'. Caitlyn almost never misses.
The throw that Caitlyn does with Vi isn't completely identical to what Ambessa did. Ambessa unnecessary used excessive force at the end of the maneuver, twisting Caitlin's shoulder and intentionally causing injury. Caitlyn's throw did not. She's precise, measured, and methodical. And she has no idea at that point that it's Vi she's taking down. This shows us her character. She's not cruel.
Very interesting I’ll go rewatch that I did not pick up onto that 😮
Amen.
Yeah, it's crazy to me that some people think Caitlyn deciding to side with Vi is illogical.
For me, the opposite would have been illogical.
Choosing loyalty to Ambessa in that situation, over Vi? When we've been given clues this whole time that she doesn't agree with Ambessa's methods. And also that she obviously still cares deeply for Vi. She doesn't care for Ambessa, they just happened to have been on the same side regarding Zaun and Jinx, nothing more nothing less.
Also the end of act 1 is obviously Ambessa forcing her hand, Caitlyn herself didn't want to become any kind of dictator, and after that there is a time jump anyways.
Exactly! Caitlyn was shocked when Ambessa called her name. She was basically pressured into that role. In her mind, she could use martial law to put enough pressure on Zaun so they can give up Jinx, just like she tried to do with the Grey.
Honestly I think we just needed to see more of Caitlyn’s descent before she came back to her senses. The time skip really robbed her of the chance to explore her and Ambessa in depth. Usually Arcane can get away with being quick but that particular detail was far too quick.
That's not the problem tho. The problem is that Caitlyn's Act 1 was all about escalation, and there was not a single point of de-escalation. On the contrary, she was escalating, only stopped by Vi... and THEN she threw Vi away by her own will. Vi, who was symbolized and straight up told to be her only stopgap from doing bad stuff was removed, and then Act 1 ends giving her even *more* power... for Act 2 to already begin completely de-escalated, with her distrusting Ambessa from the very beginning
Its a LOT of tell and very little show in Act 2, *that's* the problem. Siding with Vi is not *illogical*, it just feels unearned because Act 1 took its time to set things up, while Act 2 instantly dismantled all of that
@@felipecouto1102 I see where you're coming from, however I do not really share the same point of view regarding Caitlyn in act 1.
First of all, what Caitlyn does in act 1 isn't as bad as some people make it out to be.
Most of what we saw was her raiding Zaun gang hideouts, so in a way she was mostly doing her "job".
As for the last scene when she shot at Jinx, she was confident in her aim and that she wasn't going to hit the kid (Isha), and everything up till this point told us that this was the case, she can aim and she knows it.
So again, all she did was taking a shot at Jinx, which is not only her job but also what Vi agreed to ("if you see her, take the shot" or something along those lines.)
The thing that we see is how angry she is, but that's where you have to consider the timing.
Everything that happens in season 2 act 1 is directly following the rocket from the end of season 1, which lead to the death of her mother. Then just after that there is the attack during the memorial.
She has to process all that in a couple of days at most, so it makes sense that she is angry in the moment. It doesn't mean that it has changed her personality. It's like a momentary state of mind.
Then at the end of act 1, Ambessa forces her hand to become the commander, a position that she neither requested nor was really willing to accept without a lot of hesitation.
This is where comes the important factor : the time jump.
While so many dreadful events happen in a matter of just a few days during end of season 1 + act 1 of season 2, act 2 of season 2 starts after a few months of time jump, which was a good writing decision in my opinion.
You have to assume that characters have had time to reflect on what happened during act 1 and move on from it.
This is also the case for Jinx, as is shown during her dialogue with Isha in episode 4 ("Jinx is dead") and her monologue at Silco's empty chair.
So why do some people understand that Jinx can move on in the span of a few months, but not Caitlyn?
Right from the first scene with Maddie in the bed, you can see that (obviously) Caitlyn is way more calm and temperate after a few months have passed compared to the state she was in within a few days of 2 deadly Zaunite attacks.
I think some people have an issue wrapping their head around that because they looked too much into the last scene of act 1, with Caitlyn doing the fist to chest move, and assumed too much from that scene.
They assumed that it meant more than it actually did.
They were expecting a full dictator Caitlyn in act 2 and that's not what the show provided for them. In my opinion they had their expectation in the wrong place.
I mean, this was also intentional from the writers to lead us in the wrong direction and have us theorize on possibilites, and be surprised later when something different happens. But writers were also probably expecting that viewers would be able to move on from the false expectations they were mislead into as a cliffhanger for act 1.
@@felipecouto1102 but it did show, you can watch expressions, one thing i love about arcane si that its like a novel, on frist reading you may not get the whole picture, but upon revisiting it finer details come out. Fortiche has always beeen known for putting everything with intention, this includes, colors, facial expressions, actions, dialogue, etc. In many scenes caitlyns reactions and face expressions show us what she is thinking. For instance when she is accusing singed of being a monster, singed explains "why do people commit acts others deem unspeakable... for love" in that moment the camera shows caits expression and it changes on the word love. Even when she sees orianna her expression is shown as pensive. Althermore, on episode 6 the whole theme is about love, hate, compassion, how ion humanity it makes us commit the worst of acts and also the best of acts. Cait has realized what not letting go did to singed, making him a monster. Caits love for her mom is amking her do unspeakable such as siding with ambessa and pushing VI away, but that same love for VI is what makes her do good as seen in s1 of the show. Altogether, even though the show does lack explicit presentation of cait committing this acts it does do it not only trhought dialoguwe and expressions but also through the start of ep 4 in the itnro msuic where it can be seen a,mbessa motivates ait into furthering agression to find jinx and hten enforcers are shooting. Evwen though i would have prefereed it to be epxlicit and not in a music video, it still shows the studios attention to detail and to the symbolism of it all.
sorry for the typos hehe
Caitlyn never came off as fully "turned" to me. From what we know of her incredible intellect displayed by her in season 1(that board is immaculate), and her constant friction with Ambessa(e.g calling out her man for being cruel to a Jinx fan) , I don't think it was fair for people to really just assume she was being manipulated so easily. I mean, subtlety is not Ambessa's strong suit and Caitlyn has always been a pacifist. Something interesting to me is that even in the grip of her grief, when she's expeessing her most hateful thoughts to Jayce, she has the self awareness to say "It's so easy to hate them..."
you said exactly what i wanted to say, i have been really confused all this time seeing people calling her a dictator and all
but when i finally got to watch it myself, things really arent as bad as people described
caitlyn is still caitlyn, just slightly affected by grief and loss of her mother
and it was also clear to me that she wasn't 100% manipulated by ambessa
like to me at least, people can pick sides for many different and even conflicted reasons, people dont have to agree 100% on something to side it
@@lensalmon3795 Caitlyn was using chemical warfare on civilians 😭 There’s a music video about how they use the gas called Grey.
Let’s face it… Caitlyn is seriously messed up in the head or maybe the character writing is bad in season 2.
i feel like caitlyn never wanted to be a dictator. she only wanted to do what was right. her morals never changed it was stress and misguidance on ambessas part that lead her away from who she was. besdies if you think about it she was really forced into the position she was. it was an impossible situation.
Yea... but she did also decide to gas civilians all on her own, which was worse than anything she did under ambessa
Yeah, I don't think she did either and it makes me angry when people just write her off as one because that's just so shallow and shows they can't read deeper. Her mom just died. She's her mom's replacement(and essentially half the councils replacement as SOMEONE needed to step up until then found other people). Ambessa cornered her Infront of everyone bc she knew Caitlyn would crumble because she'd ask herself if this is what her mom would do snd to an extent(at least from what we've seen with her mom), yes, her mom would. She wanted to live up to her mother's image and it made her put aside her morals. She learned her classism from her mom, and there's no doubt her mom treated zaunites likes less, especially considering her interactions with vi. Caitlyn didn't uphold a lot of those morals and views before her mom's death but she felt like she had to after. That's it. So many people miss that. Ambessa manipulated someone who's barely an adult by using her recently deceased mother as ammunition, even though she never stated that. All of piltover rested on Caitlyn's shoulder in that minute so it makes a ton of sense why she'd choose Ambessa. It's what her mom would've done. it's what her side-chick wanted. It's what Piltover seemingly wanted. Why do people blame her for that?
You could clearly see Cait being unsure about Ambessa when they were training. The foreshadowing of her backstabbing Ambessa was when Ambessa was walking away after throwing Cait down, and then Cait stood up and attacked Ambessa while her back was turned.
I don't know how clear cut you want it to be but actions always speak louder than words.
You Mean the same time when ambessa talked about honor and cait decided to be dishonorable, I interpreted that more as show that cait is still in a bad space.
@@Mars2519you mean the same people that find the use of magic abhorrent and wax lyrical about honor so that they can usually ensure that the strongest always win (hence the runes)
Ambessa is not the type of person to be talking about honor. She is just as deceptive and sneaky as the rest. So if Cait is acting dishonorable to someone that has no moral ground to be standing on honor, I don’t think that says much about her mindset.
I seriously believe that the perception of Caitlyn suddenly becoming a "ruthless dictator" is kind of lacking ground.
She was simply chosen by Ambessa as a temporary emergency ruler in a war situation against the Zaun terrorists who killed her mother. She never was a total straight-forward dictator seeking power and she was always very critic of Ambessa's ideas and actions.
Thank God I found someone who thinks the same.
The story beat you missed, that sets Caitlyn on a path of self reflection and potentially forgiving Jinx is the scene with Singed. Caitlyn comes at Singed demanding his motivation for such despicable acts. She finds out, that it is love that drives all people to act in ways despicable to others. The scene of the daughter reflects caitlyns mum in a coffin. Her expression goes from disgust to softness and understanding, followed by contemplative. By the time she runs into Vi, she has stepped away from leading to more of a subordinate role, her drive to hunt Jinx or anyone has already faulted and Vi provides the opportunity to escape the horror she had trapped herself in.
The writing is subtle and what I love about arcane is how it shows you the story instead of spelling it out for you. I'm glad there wasn't a scene of Vi and Cait hashing out the pros and cons of saving Vander. That would have been too sledge hammer dialogue.
in my case, i didn't miss it, but the season all throughout was speedrushing every process. it felt disjointed even if it did technically make sense
To be sure, I feel like the Caitlyn story line is a bit of a misdirection so far.
I don't fully buy the narrative that Caitlyn was only out for vengeance. She somewhat reluctantly accepted the nomination of "Commander" probably more so she may act as a stop gap to the war hawks. Consider how bad things might have been if Salo had been appointed Commander. She constantly is looking to find Jinx, imo, to be able to end the suffering caused by the Martial Law. Caitlyn is very aware of Ambessa's manipulations, but knows her course forward is full of potentially lethal traps ( because Ambessa seems psychopathic at times). As a call back to episode 1 of this season, like she told Vi in the hallway, I think Caitlyn will admit that she bit off more than she could handle later on.
By the time Caitlyn helps Vi with Vander, Caitlyn feels that the duo of Singed and Ambessa (especially if they get hold of Warwick) is the greater threat.
Oh yeah don't get me wrong, it's not all out vengeance against Jinx however, as Vi tried to convince herself in act 1, Jinx needs stopping in order to end the conflict. Caitlyn feels it's essential and Ambessa provides a means, even if she never fully agrees with her
I almost never see anyone reference that Episode 1 line "my arrogance led me to take on more than I could handle" and I feel like it really nicely lines up with Caits arc this season. Still grieving, throws herself headlong into catching Jinx, only to be called up to the role of commander and suddenly responsible for protecting not only Piltover, but trying to mitigate damage to the innocents in Zaun without fully making an enemy of the Noxians. All things considered I think she's handled it admirably but my girls gotta be exhausted 😂
I agree with this pov. Sure the choices Caitlyn made felt sudden but they were understandable. She decided to become the commander as a way to stop an all-out genocidal war between Piltover and Zaun. But then the inclusion of Singed making it possible to create more terrifying weapons for warfare had to force Cait to move quickly and create a momentary alliance with Vi and Jinx to fight back. But I still hope they address the issues between Jinx and Cait, Vi and Cait, Jinx and her followers, and Jayce vs everyone.😅
I still find it so wild how Martial Law happened - like there is no Council deciding things, they are all too scared.
I really didn’t want Isha to die
I really, really, really, really didn’t
In my opinion Cait's meeting with Singed is the turning point. She realized that death and letting people go is the fate you can't stop it or if you try it get too messy/cynical to prevent the consequences. In this case she witnessed shimmer. She is intelligent, knew she is already in the trap of Ambessa, without Jayce, Mel or anyone in her side, who could trust her and give her the strength, she can not do anything. And the use of "death" in Arcane is something I love so much, it's something when happened you just can't rewrite it and if you try to do that there are consequences, also viktor curing everyone is not ethically right, or is it?
Great take
To build off this- I also think Cait’s turning point was meeting with Singed. However, I think she realized… his daughter may not even be ill. He may simply have frozen her, strangled her with stillness out of fear of seeing her grow and knowing that at end of life, comes death. And realizing that his twisted love, fear, and control was the cause of such horrors as Warwick.
@@Amoechick That's alright, but my point is in general her moral awakening about everything she is going through and so far the damage she has done as an excuse for revenge and justice rather than grieving and letting go the pressure of filling the shoe. She maybe in the process of finding Jinx killed someone's parent as well, the chain has to stop. It is like the sacrifice of rage attached to revenge rather than people itself. Hope that make sense.
@@Amoechick "He may simply have frozen her, strangled her with stillness out of fear of seeing her grow and knowing that at end of life, comes death."
I'm sorry, but this is a stupid take. First he killed her, then preserved her, and then wants to revive her? Singed in the series is full of composure, logic, and wisdom. 🤦♂
If I remember correctly, then canonically she had some kind of sickness, which systematically "demolished" her body, and her organs 1 by 1 started to quit working.
Thats an intres ting take that makes sense, but its not shown.
I'm amazed at how many people think characters can't be the type to have internal thoughts different than what they convey on screen. I feel like Caitlin was never gung-ho on being a Dictator, Ambessa clearly orchestrated and nudged her into it; she allowed it, waiting to see what would come of it, if it would get her what she thought she wanted. It didn't, and over time clearly she started to second guess Ambessa and her teachings; she even gives her pushback during their sparring match clearly showing that she doesn't see Ambessa as this pure mentor who she should emulate to be, but simply another person who has a different outlook that maybe she can get some value out of, but also maybe she can't. She's watching and waiting, trying to discern; it's a valuable character trait, but apparently one that is lost on some audiences. Caitlyn isn't like Vi, she's not going to wear her heart on her sleeve and make her allegiances obvious and plain, she's a chess player and y'all are acting like she's playing checkers.
And Caitlyn has been shown throughout the series to be very discerning and intuitive. We see it with her being able to figure out crime scene events like a puzzle.
100% this
@@nostalgicbliss5547and she's also curious and willing to try a new approach when one hasn't worked.
Eh.. I get what you're saying, but you can only attribute so much of a character to subtext and still have their characterization and beliefs discernable to the audience. In this case, if Cait was always having those doubts, why is it that up until she betrayed Ambessa, EVERYONE thought she was fully invested in being a dictator for the sake of peace? At least enough that it would be harder for her to have a heel face turn than just one conversation with Vi.
The whole "it's clearly in the subtext, but most people just don't pick up on it," is a common defense of weak writing. Because it can easily slide into you inventing developments, thoughts, and characterization that isn't actually present in the media itself. Caitlyn and Vi fell out _hard,_ and they don't even get a chance to properly reconcile before Cait turns on the person helping her control the Undercity, which she still hates. It's one thing to have internal thoughts, it's another to not act on those thoughts at all. And without actions supporting this subtle characterization, how are we the audience meant to understand it?
It's so easy to deflect criticism with "you just don't understand, it's all in the invisible subtext." But the fact that _so many people_ don't understand implies that it either isn't true, or the writing FAILED to communicate this idea properly.
@@DLxxx Who says Cait hates the undercity? She literally just wants to get Jinx cause her shenanigans led to her mother's death, that's all lol. She doesn't have this deep hatred for the undercity now which would be extreme. Prejudice is different from unrelenting hate and bigotry.
And nobody with a functioning brain would believe that Cait was still fully invested in being a dictator, they literally showed that was not the case from episode 4 till she betrays Ambessa in episode 6. Some of you just need your hands held and nothing is wrong with that, but just admit it rather than screaming bad writing for things that are pretty obvious.
The showrunners clearly want to tell an efficient story with little to no fat and that isn't working for some people, that doesn't make it bad writing, just not working for some of you.
im a big caitlyn fan and i felt like her arc was pushed to the side for.... things that feel like fan service filler? i dont understand why we needed so many vander flashbacks.
i agree with u- logically caitlyn's actions make sense. but caitlyn, unlike jinx, doesnt tend to talk to herself, so we dont hear her thoughts. she doesnt lash out like vi. her expressions are harder to read- shes closed off and reserved. she is a VERY hard character for people to pick out, and shes been like this since s1- just look how many ppl completely glaced over her character in that season. thats why i loved act 1 so much- when given the time and attention, shes brilliant. but u cant just expect ppl to pick up on her cues like they do with jinx and vi. she didnt have enough emotional exploration in this act that the audience can SEE. so she feels rushed, and it felt like that to me too until a second watch. even me, who love her dearly and pay extra attention in every scene shes in, had a hard time picking up on her emotional arc. so i can't imagine how just someone who's normal about caitlyn would pick up on it on a first watch.
Agree with most of your points but nah I loved the vander flashback. Showed his humanity along with the dream all 3 of them wanted. Also shows why he fights so damn hard to live because that dream is worth fighting for.
@@erenja3ger871we know the type of person vander is. we got to spend time with him in s1 act 1. im not saying they had to cut all of it out, but him picking out vi's name? felt like fan service. i didnt need to know he personally knew vi and powder's mom. all i needed to know was communicated to me in the very first scene of the show. if they had time, sure, those flashbacks wouldve been cute. but they took so much time and completely threw us out of the pace of the current events and our main cast. like i said, caitlyn got the short end of the stick after her arc built up so beautifully in act 1 and her story felt rushed.
Caitlyn is a supporting character in this series, the relationship Vi and Jinx have with Vander is definitely not filler and way more important to this story. The whole thing literally started with Vander adopting Vi and Jinx after their parents died fighting against enforcers in a civil war against Piltover. You guys simply want this series to be something it never was cause your fav character wasn't given enough screentime. I would say Ekko is probably one of my favorites and think his story and potential ability is very interesting and yet we have barely gotten 10 scenes with his character in both seasons. Cause he is more of a supporting/side character in this series.
I agree with your first paragraph- I felt like they introduced too many new characters and sub plots that it took away from the characters we care about.
I agree with the paragraph about cait, she is very reserved and it can be hard for someone to read her if your not use to reading people all the time.
The real thing for me is how much of Act 2 for Caitlyn was entirely based on *Telling* instead of *Showing* , when her Act 1 was MASTERFUL in Showing instead of Telling. Act 1 Showed her escalation, with Vi as her only stopgap, for her to then throw Vi away and have a followup scene of her immediately being granted power, to enact *anything* she wanted, AFTER ditching the person that was holding her back... people saying other viewers misunderstood it feel like they are watching another show, because they always talk about how controlled and conscious she was at the last scene in Act 1, when nothing points to that.
Then Act 2 tells us she doesn't trust Ambessa. It tells us she doesn't want to be violent, it tells us she goes against Ambessa at almost every decision... for a show that let's its characters face the consequences of their actions in such a raw way, that let Vi hit child Powder because of her grief, Jayce kill a child out of his rage, or Viktor kill Sky accidentally on his desperation, it tries *very hard* to not portray Caitlyn as actually committing bad acts in THE moment where she held the most grief, the least restraint and the most power.
i see where you're coming from, but i actually disagree! i respect what you think, but here's my thought is all: i also didn't think caitlyn switching sides was strange. but it never occured to me that the story was "telling" us this straight to our faces and it wasn't entirely based on that. caitlyn's eyes tell us so much, and so much of act 2 is also focused on her eyes when she's in frame. interrogating singed, her expression is hard, but you can see by the way her eyes look almost forcefully narrowed (masterfully done by the animators) that she's growing tired of keeping up this act of aggression. she's found information before without this force, and as she states later, force exposes you to risk. that statement in itself isn't really "telling", it's showing that in the most basic sense caityn has begun to refind what she's shooting for. she's realising that this approach isn't for the best despite her efforts. she's already weary of ambessa and a lot of that isn't even told, you can just see. moreover, the way caitlyn's eyes completely shift when vi calls her cupcake. that's an emotional memory she's tapped into after all this time, and it's where we see that softer side of her come out again. that also isn't told, that's just indicated by the focus on her eyes. what truly makes me believe it wasn't at all just tell was the way she acts when they're fooling ambessa. she walks in to a tent where she should be in charge as commander, but it is so clearly framed as her walking in on something she shouldn't have. even ambessa looks annoyed when she asks "yes?". cait's eyes dart from side to side in the tent from singed to rictus to ambessa, and you can see she finally properly realises that maybe she hasn't ever really been in charge here. her voice indicates as much when she says "it's ... vi." partially hesitation on the plan, yes, but it's also like a realisation that choosing to plan with vi was the right thing to do - because she has no agency here. none of that is told to us straight, as the viewer we watch in that moment as she realises what's happened. it's even evident when she sees jinx after being saved from rictus. she doesn't aim her gun immediately, even after saying "you!", especially when isha and vi walk in. she looks between them all, and does nothing to stop it, because not only is it humanising them, but that's family. family, for which she fell into this for. family for which she chose to help vi and betray ambessa. family for which she sees vi and jinx will always be, and seeing that vi has also come to this conclusion. moreover, she seems to have a similar reaction to isha as vi did upon seeing how jinx is with her. the episode rounds out with her holding vi like in s1, when she really did want to learn and help. that is an excellent summation of her journey even across the time skip without telling us step by step. it's also just in her outfits and how she carries herself - we see her at her most "vulnerable" with maddie at the beginning, but she's clearly not as comfortable as she'd like. it's night time. she shouldn't be up, we all know who she thinks maddie should be. her outfit until confronting vi is that imposing commander (and rather vampire like) look. hair down, collar up, visually this tells us she is in a facade of control. she is harshest when like this. but even in this form we see that callback to her detective skills in s1, showing she hasn't lost her roots. but by the end her hair is tied up again, wearing her uniform and with her rifle, creating much more openness and vulnerability with her. like i said, i respect your opinion! but i think there's so much visual storytelling and subtext there that saying act 2 caitlyn is based solely on telling might be dismissive.
Oo i love this
@@mvpatbeingadisappointment6732 loved this analysis! I actually think this series is more show then tell and that's exactly why people feel there is more issues with this season then actually is.
@@sunfiwakeup absolutely! i keep feeling like im going crazy with lots of issues people seem to point out that never occured to me on the first watch or rewatches, but as you've put it and as i've seen (esp from reactors :/) people really like to be spoonfed information instead of using subtext and hence often times they write it off and lose valuable growth. i coudln't quite verbalise it but you've pointed it out perfectly. like the vi and cait scene with so many people saying it happened out of nowhere, but to me at least it seemed so obvious esp given what i said in my previous comment. if nothing else i thought it was at least clear it wasnt reconciliation but a common goal and larger enemy for which they set aside differences. caits arc so far too.
@@mvpatbeingadisappointment6732this is literally what I was thinking! So much of her character is through subtle details. As SOON as she’s the commander she goes very quiet and is very calculated and measured in what she says and does, she doesn’t have the opportunity to express everything she’s feeling she has to keep up with the expectations while also trying to find her own way of approaching everything.
Too much of what happened in Act 2 happened "Off Screen". That, to me, is the biggest problem with Act 2. Zaun losing to Noxus. Caitlyn and Maddie becoming lovers. Jayce - everything about him. Viktor creating a new "Firelight" place in Zaun after we're shown and told how unique and impossible people thought the Firelight place was. The Black Rose infiltrating Piltover. Etc. Maybe we'll get flashbacks in Act 3 (and we likely will, with Jayce) but the rest, I think, we're just going to have to go with the time skip.
As many may have missed, Caitlyn found out about Ambessa secretly meeting with Singed in his lab.
wait which part is that how did she find out??
@@hannanna1004 it’s on episode 5, after Ambessa frees Singed to work with him. I think Caitlyn found Singed’s lab location when she was doing research on him about being the creator of Shimmer.
I had no problem with Caitlyn siding with Vi. That all made sense to me. They've always had a connection and I don't think either of them would have discarded that connection, despite their initial break-up.
But personally, I really wish we would've seen more of dictator Caitlyn instead of having that arc rushed through a music montage. That's a little disappointing
their connection was always made up for the story, they have no chemistry its just the madatory lesbian/gay love story (and now the only one in season 2)
@@laurentguyot3362 I think a few million viewers would take exception to "no chemistry." Love is love.
@@jamakaya1332 Millions of people love junk food...
@@laurentguyot3362 Merci, the desperate relationship was forced as hell in order to cater to the f/f shippers.
The Arcane subreddit is a proof that the Vi/Caitlyn shippers do not care about actual consistency or chemistry.
If anything Caitlyn had more chemistry with Maddie of all people..
@@laurentguyot3362what do you mean they have no chemistry, their whole lore is that they have chemistry… they are literally married in League of Legends! From s1 we saw their chemistry
I honestly don´t agree about us not seeing Caitlyn´s thought process. It´s all in her eyes. Right when you mention we should be shown the fact that she is conflicted in the training scene you show her clearly looking conflicted but trying to be subtle about it because she isn´t going to express that in front of her superior. Same thi ng with her encounter with Vi. We are focused on her expretion after she is told who they are really going after to show us that exact process. Before this season I rewatched season 1 so I am fairly certain of this. It´s a bit like how the third part of season 1 treats Jinx, we aren´t fully told about her thought process, but in the moments we see with her, we are at least shown that the gears are turning, which leads into the "family dinner" in the last episode. If anything I think the person the show should focus more on is Jinx.
After she meets with Vander in episode 4 she imediatly goes to Vi... but why? I´m not saying that she wouldn´t do this, but after the last two times they met, her and Vi had their own declarations of "you are no longer my sister" I think it would have been important to show her thought process. Yes, none of them fully comit tto their declarations, but still. I think that´s what people mean when they talk about the pacing issues... It feels like there are chunks of some plotlines (including the main one with Vi and Jinx) that seem to be missing.
Yeah, I tried to keep playing that clip. The emotion is definitely there to spot, though I'm not entirely surprised a lot of people missed it
The reason she goes to VI is because of what she wanted she saw a chance to get her family back. Moreover, they both already had lost so much especially jinx that the fight with Vi where she wanted to die was like letting everything out. Both didn’t have more to let out they already lost basically everything. You can see they still keep their distance and still have issue but all that had to be said and done was done between them. Now the new conflict will be in how isha will affect jinx as a whole since she died. In the preview we see VI tells her her potential could be used for good but we don’t know for certain if this will happen. We can only wait
Also if I remember (correct me if I’m wrong) someone asked one of the creators this similar question and they answered saying all that had to be said was said. They basically already threw everything they had to say and do to each other and they no longer cared.
@@Maotrix-RandomGameStuff I get that, my problem isn´t with this being out of character, but with the lack of an emotional process to get to that point. After everything that happened, does she have doubts about if Vi will accet her? Could she not make a new family with her as the older sister now? Or does she imediatly, without a moment of hesitation look for Vi... we don´t know. Seeing Jinx´s expres her desiere to go to Vi before actually going ther would inform us about her character in important ways. It´s not just about getting from A to B but about how that road looks
@ I see so it’s more of a wish to see what was the thought process before going to Vi, I think while not necessary it may have been nice, but still you kinda get why she went there, she still has doubts of VI accepting her as seen in ep 6 when she asks VI if she really wants her opinion or when VI says they both should stay together and jinx responds with “we?” It’s kind of obvious she still had doubts but still went to search for Vi with hopes of getting her old life back. Also the time she spent with Isha gave her perspective on how her sister probably view her before as seen when she talks about how she couldn’t do much of what she did with Vi when she was younger.
“Act 1 had her establishing herself as a ruthless dictator” The problem is, they NEVER established this, people just ASSumed.
She was put in a difficult situation of accepting Ambessa’s offer after seeing her save Piltover or reject it and piss off a Warlord. She didn’t go about wanting to Dictator anything.
Both her and Ambessa were using each other; Ambessa for Cait’s connections and Cait to get Jinx and to keep her enemy close.
We see Caitlyn pulling away from Ambessa incrementally from Episode 4. Seeing Vi was just the catalyst to get her to drop Ambessa entirely.
The pacing is fine. Caitlyn’s character is the same one we got familiar with in Season 1. The problem is people can’t read emotions clearly and need things spelled out for them.
She gassed niggas up using her mother's technology which is meant to make the undercity breathe. Is willing to shoot jinx with a child there and feels utterly betrayed by vi. It may not have shown her as a dictator but the end of act 1 gives a promise that a more ruthless character than what we initially we saw is coming. And you're trying pretend that didn't happen
They want their fan fiction to become reality and when it doesn't happen, they claim it's cause of pacing issues or the story now being plot driven rather than character driven. To me, the pacing has been not just good, but excellent. It's efficient and doesn't waste time on any unnecessary scenes.
@@nostalgicbliss5547exactly I saw a comment talking about this
@@nostalgicbliss5547here it is:
Not all opinions are equally valid either. It's like people who complain about "balance" in a game but they actually just want it to be made easier.
Some of criticism is just the everything-is-crap brigade that social media algorithms reward because that's the world we live in.
Some of the criticism is because people didn't "like" what happens to a character - regardless of whether it is required from a storytelling perspective. Aka "I liked Isha, what happened to Isha made me feel sad, therefore ".
Some criticism is because the focus is not on a character or plot point that someone isn't as interested in. Aka "I don't care about ‹character a > I want to know about ‹character b> and all this time devoted to ‹character a> is preventing me from finding out about < character b>, therefore ‹insert most popular criticism>".
Or some people are soooo into the story they just want more more more. But then that runs in a practical issue the writers have to adapt a story to constraints of the media it is published in. i.e. they have to choose what to keep or cut from a limited series - and what to keep or cut is based on what benefits the story as a whole, not necessarily what some of the audience wants (writing a story is not a popularity contest). Aka "You're not going into excessive detail about everything I want so it's even though doing what I want would blow out the show into a 20-season epic".
All those criticisms (except for social media grifters) are perfectly fine/normal btw - it's actually motivated by people liking the source content, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a valid criticism OF the source content either.
Tldr - people don't get what they want.
The trending criticism of Arcane this season is "pacing". Therefore people are blaming "pacing" for them not getting what they want - even if it has nothing to do with pacing. ‹because humans>
@@Maotrix-RandomGameStuff You broke it down perfectly. Like you said, a lot of the criticism is people just wanting more from this universe.
To spend more time with the characters they like. I also think it's cause some people got obsessed with this show after season 1 and waited three years with unrealistic expectations of where the story was headed.
It gets to the point they believe the fan fiction in their head is better than whatever the showrunners end up providing. I also read a comment that called the Vander part of the story this season as filler lol.
They honestly think Caitlyn is some sort of main character when it's obvious she is more of a supporting character. The story has always been about Vi and Jinx, with Viktor and Jace being the other main characters because of their connection to the Arcane.
Viktor literally brings together Shimmer and Hextech as an unholy abomination and looks like he set up to be the main villain of the series which is tragic with how his character was portrayed in season 1 as very sympathetic. The rest of the characters are supporting and side characters.
There are also some people on the internet who have this perverse obsession with shipping/romance/sexuality. They want the Vi and Cait plot to be the main thing driving the story lol. Some of these people seriously have psychological issues.
Regarding Caitlyn my guess is that you have to understand who she is. She's a Kiramman. Kirammans are bred and trained to take control and command. The first act of the second season shows us this. But Caitlyn also has an investigative nature. She questions. But at the beginning of the second season she is thrown into the death of her mother and how she feels totally responsible for it since she didn't take the shot. She wasn't even aware of the independence treaty was even a thing at the moment.
Another thing that is hinted is that no matter how Caitlyn tries to deny it. The Piltover view of Zaun is seeping in through the cracks of sorrow, regret and rage. At the council chambers she still pleads for them, but after the Zaunian attack at the monument mass she goes over the deep end. The problem here is that this is no longer the advocate for Zaun here anymore. She goes full enforcer mode with little to no regards of how many people she hurts or maim in her quest for revenge. See episode 3. Because that's the only red hot rage in her heart at the time. That's why she needs Vi. And does anything to keep her all the way to the prize. Including manipulating Vi's emotions by kissing her. She might lock lips with Vi, but her mind, and heart, is packed with the image of Jinx with a bullet hole in her skull. That's why she doesn't listen to Vi at the battle at the end of episode 3. She craved her pound of flesh which was unfilled. So with the heart festering with an unresolved vengeance, when Ambessa suggest that she become the de facto dictator for Piltover (Roman style dictator) she grabs for it to take down Jinx any way possible.
So when act 2 rolls in at least a year has gone. The glowing hate has burned down to ember. Her old persona starts to shine through the smoke. You notice this with her questioning Ambessa and her ways. Caitlyn starts to realise that the time with the Noxian army is finite. There comes a time when they leave. She's been the figurehead of the Piltover oppression of Zaun. With bells on. The people of Zaun will not forget. You see her old investigating skills starts to light up, you see this when she visits Stillwater after the Warwick attack. This also starts to make her question what Ambessa really is after. That she wants to put the beast in cage and not put it down confirms her suspicions something is going on. So she meets Vi again. And in a way, uses Vi again. Vi's mission is to confirm Caitlyn's suspicions about Ambessa. As quid pro quo she'll help with protecting Vander/Warwick.
Then Jayce comes and spoils it all.
What made me fall in love with arcane was the family theme. Arcane has always been about that, and I'm glad they didn't neglect it. About Cait's character, I've always seen her as a secondary character since s1, so from the beginning I wasn't very involved in where her character was going, maybe that's why I didn't find her change strange.
Exactly this! Caitlyn is a supporting character and most of these people are more interested in lesbian romance than the theme about family which is the main theme of this show. The main characters are clearly Vi, Jinx, Jace and Viktor. They are the ones whose actions have driven the story from the beginning. Vander, Silco, Ambessa, Mel, Caitlyn, Ekko and Heimerdinger are all supporting/side characters.
All the characters are important and Caitlyn was connected to them since she appeared on the scene, she also has a family and represents very well the other side of the same coin as Victor said in the final line of act 2. Seeing her perspective in the story counts, and the series besides dealing with family explores the love of a couple as Christian one of the creators said, that they are bothered by the lesbian theme is another matter. Besides, they are all champions and since 2012 they were already in love, so that hatred and contempt is quite childish.
Yeah yeah, so Caitlyn became part of the family the moment Jinx kidnapped her into the horrendous "family party dinner" lmao
@@nostalgicbliss5547 eh, caitlyn definitely steps into the spotlight in season 2. she was def a supporting character in season 1 but she’s became a lot more important this season plot-wise. she led the attack against jinx, gassed the undercity, and became a military figure for piltover, she’s a lot more important this season.
I agree with a lot of your points. I feel like the issue with arcane isn't that the pacing is bad, but that it relies too much on show instead of sometimes relying on telling. To fully understand what they are trying to say you need to analyze a lot (such as facial expressions, motifs, and other symbols) which most people won't take the effort to do. A result of this is some moments not being as impactful or being misinterpreted. The issue you have with Caitlyn's scene turning against Ambessa has a point, but I think they cut it to build suspence and also because it was assumed vi explained off screen/ the change in Caitlyn's facial expression is supposed to show realization. Otherwise great video!
Caitlyn picking Vi/ going against Ambessa isn't illogical, unbelievable, or bad writing.
It just happened fast and off screen unfortunately.
It would've been REALLY beneficial for CaitVi + Cait's arc to have her decision to save Warwick be on screen.
But oh well, could've been worse.
Maddie quoted Cait in the first episode: "If every enforcer had a heart like yours we could bit Noxus itself". Damn, Cait was against Noxus from the start! How people can think that she is with Ambessa?
Because it’s called show no tell for a reason. You have to make it clear. I don’t think she was with Ambessa however in fact her story line was rush. Funny enough I think she was the character who was more affected with only doing 2 season
Man, the more I hear about all the controversy and _anger_ apparently swirling around Arcane S2, the more happy I am that I left behind basically all social media for my own mental health lol.
I watched the show, was absolutely delighted with it, and went along my merry way. And yet apparently people are spending their time getting super ANGRY on X that this one little plot point was too fast for them, or their ship wasn’t made canon, or what have you?? Geez. 😂
Your line about Caitlyn always having a "black and white" worldview reminded me of her scene in the rain with Vi, where Vi is arguing the black and white perspective that Zaun and Piltover cannot come together, while Caitlyn tries to convince her that they can. Later in the shower she's still thinking about it, shaking her head no. Her and Vi, and maybe the cities but she seems more focused on her, aren't mutually exclusive. She's pretty much the only enforcer we see being nice to the people of the undercity, so she doesn't seem to have as much of a black and white view of them as the others. While she does have some distrust of Vi, showing a bit of that divide because she's from Zaun or in prison, she grows past that throughout act 2. At the tea party she tells Vi that Jinx is too far gone, drawing a line between Jinx and Powder, an internal black and white. Then after Jinx killed her mom and the attack at the memorial, she regresses to a view more similar to the other enforcers of season 1, seeing the people in the undercity as less than people. A firm black and White, except for Vi. The person that once argued for that divide now proving it wrong.
That was longer than expected but I thinks its interesting, looking at the characters through a specific lens and seeing what you find.
The music that plays when Caitlyn is pushed into power is called 'appointment of a general'. Ambessa is the general, that scene is about her rise, not Caitlyn's.
Anyone who thought Caitlyn was going to be a cruel dictator on the side of Ambessa must have been asleep for the last season and a half.
how was Cait a black and white thinker in S1? She was nice to zaunites, even criminals, and she hesitated when she had the opportunity to kill jinx because of Vi.. She also made her compassion and peace speech with Ekko. She was inexperienced, but not a black and white thinker the way Jinx is for example.
07:42 This is one of my gripes with how Arcane ended. Powder killing her whole family on accident was a consequence that felt SO real, and it's one of the things that really hooked me into the show. The lack of consequences in s2 was a big letdown for me
If Caitlyn suddenly stop her seeking justice on Jinx then it would be a huge letdown to an otherwise perfect show.
Have you watched the Act 3 ?
I think the biggest problem with this season is it uses its pacing and subtle storytelling to kind of shock and surprise its audience as like a "bonus" to these character moments right? It's smart, because it plays into the limited amount of time that they have in this season. So not only do they have to build up their plot points less, they also get the bonus of having the reveal be a surprise and kind of exciting. Cait being good, Vander being warwick, Jinx coming back from being suicidal, etc etc. All of these could definitely have been explained better, but then you lose the element of surprise when the reveal happens.
Now granted, there obviously are negatives to this, but I think Riot really did a good job of taking this limited screen time they had for these moments, and presented them in as ideal a scenario as they could have.
At least for me, when people say "x character changed motivation really quickly" I don't see it. I feel like the season happens over a longer time, at least a couple months. From Caitlyn being promoted to the end of Act 2, I think happens over at least a month, probably two or three. Based on Caitlyn's previous character, I can totally see her just being tired and wanting all this war stuff to end over a few months. Just my read into it
Judging by Vi's hair growth I'd say the act 1 - 2 time skip is like 6 months.
Vi's hair went from really short to longer than Cait's if you look at it from the back.
I think that almost every step of the process logically and narratively makes sense, but I miss some scenes that let us just sit with previously incited emotions or that just let time pass in a particular scenario.
Like, the only sulking we get to see Vi going through after she hits rock bottom is done through a musical montage, but we don't see like, some dialogue of her in that state.
We don't see a fallout between Jayce and Viktor being built up after Viktor is brought back. We don't get to see him begin to rediscover himself while Jayce tries to make it up to him for time lost.
We don't see Jinx and Isha develop a deeper on-screen relationship and as a result we have to get a musical montage of them being new-found sisters right before Isha's sacrifice. They are utilizing the same resource they used in the Ekko vs Jinx fight from season 1, and while yes, the visual style and scene as a whole tells us a LOT about their relationship, they hadn't shared 1 scene together before that fight. I mean, it's good that the scene carried, but Riot shouldn't use it as a get out of jail free card for under-developer relationships... Still love this season, but yeah, these are my major problems with it
Theres another issue maybe more with Ambessa than Cait, the story says multiple times that Ambessa actually trusts Caitlyn and maybe even sees her as a protegé. But we are told thar, Caitlyn says Ambessa taught her so much, Ambessa says Caitlyn is kin and Rictus says that Caitlyn's death will be a deep cut. But we barely see why Ambessa would ever trust her for a second, she is aways somewhat hostile to Ambessa.
I think Ambessa doesn't mind being challenged, she seems to respect people who stand their ground against her... since Mel completely pushes her (and her way of seeing the world) away and Kino is dead, she has no one interested in her legacy, other than Cait, possibly... Cait seems not to reject her teachings outright, even when she doesn't agree with them. I wouldn't go as far as to say Ambessa sees her as some sort of a stepchild, but she seems to enjoy the fact that Cait is somewhat receptive to what she has to offer... She probably feels at least somewhat misunderstood among the "Piltover softies" and she might not ever show it, but she must be pretty lonely
I agree with this take too, I also start to question why Ambessa would attempt to kill Vi while knowing she was the one who captured Cait's heart. There was no way she assumed Cait brought her ex-lover to be killed due to her being a "distraction", I mean if that is the case, she clearly wasn't thinking right via reasons you said and there's no way Cait would let that slide. I'm starting to think her character isn't very bright lol.
edit: I assume that she was going to kill Vi after picking up the knife, unless anyone has different interpretations, feel free to correct me.
@kog2749 she was 100% going to kill Vi
I think the reason they needed to cut the Cait/Vi scene short was to preserve the tension of whether Cait truly betrayed Vi when she presented her to Ambessa... if she clearly sided with Vi there would've been no tension in there...
I agree that the season would've been even greater (though it is still awesome) if it expanded on certain themes/charater developments... my feeling is that they originally planned more seasons, but higher ups wanted to reduce it to 2, so they had to make do with that... and being the talented group they are, they still made it work. I might be wrong, especially since they themselves say that they planned only 2 seasons originally, but that can also be due to NDAs that don't allow them to talk about creative differences openly.
Anyways, I still immensely enjoy the show and Act II kept me in a weeping state almost constantly 😅
Thanks for these vids! They help a lot in getting me throuh the week until the final act!
They definitely planned more. It’ll surface eventually
@@lostvariusI agree... time will definitely tell!
I don't think the higher ups were ever that much of a pusher on them. I think they legit focused on only 2 seasons, because the way it is going feels like they very much planned on these things from the start.
The problem is that no one called out on adding that one extra ingredient needed to otherwise excellent setup and payoff. Either they got rushed, so they got through 95% of the way, but that left 5% noticeable gap.
@@lostvariusDo you even have any insider info or is that just speculation? Cus that's not what I heard from the crew a couple of years back 🤫
@@lostvariusthey said two seasons were always planned bruh
Lets be honest in Act 1 Ambessa never truly attempted to convince Caitlyn to be on her side and become a dictator she just called her in front of every important house in Piltover and gave a whole speech as to why martial law was necessary for peace, Cait was grieving when she was pressured into that position, she never truly lost who she is at her core, a good person
she also never fully trusted Ambessa and Ambessa knows this, that’s why she wanted to get rid of Vi because she knew that if she got back into Caitlyn’s life she wouldn’t be able to spark her desire for revenge whenever she pleases or sees her falthering, her mistake was believing that Cait’s desire for revenge was bigger than her desire for justice and peace (and her love for Vi)
People also forget the scene where Singed explains to her why he did all those horrific things and he says “for love” its also important for Caitlyn’s arc but not that many people talk about it, Cait wants revenge, why? Because she loved her mom, she helped Vi and betrayed Ambessa, why? Because she understands Vi’s desire to get her father back (love) and because she loves her (even if they’re not exactly in the best of terms right now)
I do agree that it could’ve been handled a bit better but in all honesty, the way they handled it would’ve been the highlight of so many shows that I can’t really complain all that much, we also still need to watch Act 3 to get a good idea as to how everything is gonna play out in the end
In my opinion they would’ve benefited from a third season but that’s personal preferences, I agree with you it’s not the pacing
You mostly said what i said particularly on caitlyn. Here is my comment on a different video
"Cait betrayal was definitely rushed. They were definitely seeds planted such as the time maddie tried to convince her in the bedroom, the time where she asked ambessa why is peace always the justification for violence and disapproving of rictus actions. We also know she was actually still lenient with the undercity if what she told singed about the prison.
But the above are just that, seeds. Nothing bloomed from it. All they needed was a single confrontation betweet caitlyn and ambessa where we are shown caitlyn absolutely rejecting ambessa philosophy in some form then the scene with vi would have been fine.
But i believe it's because of the amount of seeds planted that I give it a pass.
Vi and jinx getting together i remember thinking it was a good but at the same time thinking it would have fit better as a season 3 thing
As for isha I can understand your point but I can't completely support. Jinx was already warming up to isha and by the end of ep3 even saves her. Silco also never got development with jinx. We just know they came close giving the time skip and i was fine with it"
Here are my added thoughts. You mentioned caitlyn was mainly helping vander and not just stopping her war with the undercity but I just want to add that even that still appears as rushed. Because caitlin has doubts with ambessa but she definitely likes or accepts her more than disagrees with what his shown. Of course your additional scenes solves that problem but i just wanted to add why betraying ambessa can still be off to some people.
But yeah mostly good points. The episode hit so damn well that it's flaws can be overlooked. Its just that it's arcane so everyone demands perfection to the point that any flaw taints the whole thing to some people
"everyone demands perfection" my ass. Not everyone. Not me.
Season 1 has fatal flaws much worse than this season
My guy, she literally tells Ambessa she doesn't trust her in episode 4.
with all due respect, i feel like this argument just shows how people don't pay attention to what they're seeing and hearing. it is clear from the start that caitlyn does NOT trust ambessa at all. she judges and cuestion her ways multiple times during the show. she never fully embraced this "dictator" persona that everyone around wanted for her
I honestly wished they spent more time on caitlyn and having her reflect on her actions.
I think the time to show Cait breaking with Ambessa is when the soldiers are told to prepare to attack a hippie commune. The deft way would be body language right then. A more overt way would be later when Vi asks "who's out there?", prompting Cait to explain she's with an army she doesn't control that's about to do something really bad. I also still hope to see Cait show regret at using the gray to avenge her mom since it perverted her mom's humanitarian work.
Isha hurts my suspension of disbelief. She literally fell out of the sky to join the story and she's way too young to do any of the actiony stuff. It sucks cause the way Isha heals Jinx is beautiful.
I feel that when people argue that it isn't the 'pacing' that is the problem and then argue around the semantics around it they kinda miss the point, and I'm not entirely sure if this is done because people genuinely do not understand what people mean when they say 'pacing' or because its some sort of bad faith 'ha technically that words means something else if you look at it this way so I am not going to engage with the actual criticism' kinda deal.
So once again, when people say pacing issues, they mean that we don't get as much time with these characters and their stories as we would like. Not that the story is moving too fast (or too slow, or that it doesn't make sense). Yes, we all knew Cait was going to end up on the other side again. Yes, that makes sense. Does that make it okay that they didn't give us any time with her in her role as an antagonist? That we didn't address her grief first, or that she seems to be fine enough around Jinx to not even really question working with her? To some, sure. To the people who complain about pacing: No.
The criticisms are the same, some people just use different terms.
For me, I feel like this season is good, but definitely not living up to season one. That season felt mostly character-driven, this one feels mostly plot-driven. Without the characters (what I think you call beats), the plot just feels emptier than before.
Mostly we agree, I think my only point of difference is that people fall on arguing "just add more episodes/more runtime" which would obviously help but not necessarily solve the "pacing" issues, because time and pacing are two distinct things, and also they have the amount of episodes they have. The limited time doesn't mean it's necessarily doomed to have flaws, there are still creative tweaks to the structure that help offset the difficulties
Preach ! To me that was the most off-beat aspect of it. Transitioning from a character-driven narrative where we are invested in the characters' journeys to focus on the plot-centric narrative around Arcane and Hextech and how it transforms Zaun and Piltover sort of side-tracks the character arcs as something that happen in resonance with the major plot but goes out of focus in season 2.
Season 1 already established the character dynamics, we don't need any extensive development from these characters in the final season. Her grief was literally addressed throughout act 1 lol. Plus who says she is fine with working with Jinx? She literally didn't even know she was there until Jinx saved her from Rictus. And she reacted shocked and appalled just before everything went to shit. The issue is you guys want to spend more time with the characters which is okay, but just say that, rather than make things up that clearly are not true. And to me, season 2 has been better than season 1 so far, both act 1 and 2, let's see how they wrap everything up.
@@MI24CL3 At the end of the day, the show is called ARCANE!! That was always going to be the main plot of the series combined with the Vi and Jinx story. The main players in this series are Vi, Jinx, Jace and Viktor. The rest are supporting and side characters.
@@mylittlethoughttree we dont need more time but more "meaningfull" time
There’s another thing I want to point out, and I think it is most important, was Docs conversation with Caitlyn. Two points, the first was when he told her, ‘in my experience, no one in power is innocent.’ This is a primer to include her behavior in the later dialog where Caitlyn calls him out for his part in the death of her mom (it’s not specific but that’s why she’s ready to blow his brains out in that moment), and he says the same reason why anyone does what people deem unthinkable, and shows that he’s trying to revive his daughter. She watched Silco and Vi wig out over Jinx, heard Marcus insinuate that the one thing that mattered in the end was his daughter, and now herself has turned despot to seek revenge for her mother. That’s what we can confirm she knows, and seeing Vi trying to save her father, this monster she’s here to hunt and cage like an animal, its a reality check.
But the details are far too subtle for most ppl to assume so much. I was explaining so many missed details to my coworkers that most ppl don’t catch because they aren’t looking for it. Like the cultish looking like brainless husks, or that Salo doesn’t breathe the entire time (the room is cold, and his breath never shows).
It really feels rush because her despotic behavior is all roped into a very short music video not focused on her behavior at all.
Caitlyn was not ever agree with Ambessa!
Everyone was gone, there was a chaos, she was alone and Ambessa was the only one present,
she just got along for a while....
also how well Isha's thought process and emotional state is communicated as she's doing it. How certain they make sure you are that she knows exactly what's about to happen and yet how still childish she is about it, plus how they drag it out, yet it never feels gratuitous. It's a perfectly honed spear directly to the heart
4:18 i didnt understamd this as a "she is alligned with ambassa" but more like a "this is a smart character that can learn from her mistakes"
My little pet theory is that there's nothing wrong with Cait's arc. As you say, it is functional and she stays true to everything we would expect Caitlyn to do, so why does everyone including myslef think it was odd. I think it's because Cait's promotion to Commander and the inactment of martial law wasn't done in the Enforcer office, but instead the way it was at the end of episode 3.
What actually happened was VERY different from what the visuals made (seemingly literally) everyone think happen. Cait just became [insert your favorite authoritarian dictator here]. Which upon reflection is clearly not the case and while Piltover does become an oppresive police state, it's nowhere near what we as the audience would have expected based on the symbolism of that scene.
As awesome and cool as the end of episode 3 was, I think it's the primary cause of the issues we all seem to have with Cait, and if it wasn't in the show or hanlded much differently, I don't think the audience would have had the same reaction to act 2 Cait.
The symbolism of the scene just seems to have completely overriden all our expectations of Cait's character, even if her arc is perfect reasonable and within character. We all expected Caitlyn the dictator doing horrible things and what we got was just Caitlyn with more resonsibility. I think if you remove the scene at the end of act 1 or replace it with something less "She's going full Nazi", you have very few issues around Cait's arc, though you could just reasonably ask you didn't she just shoot Jinx the moment she had the chance.
I 💯 agree with your small addition to the Vi/Caitlyn scene, it would go a long way to earning the payoff of Caitlyn “switching sides.”
I agree, I still think it works as is, but if anything acknowledging the tension of past events sells the ruse even harder because it implies that Caitlyn has considered VI’s position and is too hurt/in too deep to back out, rather than it being about miscommunication or a lack of communication.
It also lends more weight to VI’s trust monologue, because it would, again, show that Caitlyn is choosing to trust Vi over her own misgivings when the last time they spoke it was her essentially saying “I can’t trust you, you sided with Jinx.”
Yeah, that's my thinking with it. Adds more tension but also more understanding, so people feel less thrown when the twist happens. At least that's my theory. You might write/animate the lines then realise they throw something else off in the story, but I think that little tweak works
That was a very clear and beautiful analysis. I had similar recommendations to solve the "Caitlyn problem".
I feel though that most of the criticism people are expressing has root in the 3 episode act publication format. The odience it's not detached cause of pacing, but because we are worried they wont be able to close all the plotlines in the last 3 episodes. We are losing focus cause the time is running out.
In regards to Caitlyn, the scene in Singed lab was also an important time in her development and what I think gave her the push. She called Singed a monster for creating the abominations and shimmer and then she finds out he did all these horrible for his daughter. I have no doubt that she saw herself in Singed at that moment and that she is on her way to be a monster as well. Because even though (I believe) she was never ok with Noxus she still did bad things and might do more if she doesn't break that alliance off.
What I don't understand is why the writers insisted on trying to surprise us with the double cross. It's not the first time this season has retroactively explained something that happened by giving us backstory they could have just shown us beforehand (e.g. Ambessa goading Renni or Caitlyn learning about the gray). We didn't need the fake tension of "surely Cait didn't turn in Vi, right?"
Why not be more straightforward and show us Caitlyn and Vi talking about Vander? Show Caitlyn slowly warming up to the idea, give us better insight into her headspace, have Vi or Cait point out that this might be their only chance to pull one over on Ambessa. I just feel like we were robbed as an audience of a nice, loving scene where the girls gradually realize they can be on the same team again. Instead that character beat happens offscreen. Why? For the main romance in the show? It makes no sense.
i don't think they were trying to surprise us. based on what we know about characters it should've been fairly obvious they had a ploy. while i think some of it was time constraints, it never felt like anything robbed to me. i think for caitlyn, who lost her mother but is starting to recover herself, hearing that vander needed help probably connected with her in a big way. she can help save a family like she couldn't do for her mother. it's not implausible that given the situation and her emotions they didn't need a super long talk about it
Vi : I'm trying to help my dad.
Her love interest who just lost her mother and still hasn't recovered : I'm in.
While seeing Vi taken into Ambessa's tent during my first watch, with no info other than what the show had given us, my gut feeling with very little doubt was that this was a trap for Ambessa. I knew deep down that if push came to shove and Caitlyn had to choose between the two, she would always choose Vi. That's why this swap from Caitlyn didn't seem wrong to me. The moment they bumped into eachother outside of Viktor's camp was quick, but regardless it was all the time she needed and the opportunity to choose.
It's so odd to hear people "struggle to relate to the characters", unless of course it's only the Piltovan characters they're invested in. Vi is trying to preserve her family after she lost literally everyone in Act 1, Jinx is gathering the courage to reach out and become Powder again, Isha is trying to support her found family by all means necessary, Singed's life revolves around saving Oriana, and Viktor is seeing the perils of trying to give aid unconditionally - that even if people can't take advantage of you, they benefit from the misery you mitigate and will stop you because of that.
I think people neglect to realize Caitlyn is grieving. Her mom was brutally taken away from her, and she was thrust into this militaristic role by someone who's entire empire revolves on playing on such pain. Of course being able to spare someone else from the grief she still carries would motivate her, it gives her a course of action her moral center is far more comfortable with than the Noxian one she feels is closing in on her like a mold. I think the commune symbolizes not just a dream, but an escape from the past, just as it has for Huck, just as Viktor offers Jinx/Powder, it's something both sisters grasp onto because they don't want to be enemies, they don't want to be the villains in each others' stories. It's why Vi asks to stay there.
also, at 6:32 to 6:33, Caitlyn's face goes from "No, it can't be... Surely" and then pure shock in realization.
So she realized what Vi was saying, that Warwick was (at that moment, still) her dad
My theory is that Maddie was involved on ambessa’s behalf to convince Caitlyn to stay in a position of power, and separate her from Vi’s influence. Which is what was keeping her character morally anchored. They were each others support so when they separated they broke down.
Show this video to tiktok because these people be calling caitlyn 'hitler'. Saying she was willing to shoot a child while not even watching one analyse video about that scene. I watched about that scene from Necrit and he explained it clearly and it also make sense.
I think all this confusion comes from that they were lacking in details and scenes that showed this logical evolution of Caitlyn. Like you said, yes it is logical what she did, but they didn't show *enough* of this character thinking and changing her mind to us the audience. Further as you shown the training scene with Ambessa, that then is reproduced with the fight with Vi, shows Caitlyn literally in sync with Ambessa. That is a powerful visual device telling us the audience Caitlyn is aligned with Ambessa further adding to the confusion that Caitlyn so EASILY swaps back to Vi's side.
Little quips or verbal jabs are not enough to leave an emotional argument for the audience to agree with, it has to show us some more. And what they did show, like the repeated fight sequence, is actually contradictory.
Caitlyn is suffering from grief, and in the first stages of grief, you turn angry at the world ,angry at yourself or at someone you think is at blame, your view changes and you stop giving a sh**t about things you used to care, all you want is to stop hurting.
But after a while you start to accept your love one is gone and you feel the only way to respect their memory is being the person they loved and they were proud of
So her returning to her former self that quick is normal, she was angry and now she accepts her loss and she moves on , returning to herself, and doing her mother proud
Thank you for answering our questions from the last video!! (And more!!)
I think my one complaint is just that I wanted MORE of Caitlyn’s villain Arc. Fingers crossed at 3 gives us a bit more
I thought Arcane was doing good with saving time where necessary and 'show don't tell' until this second act in season 2. The episodes are suffering from being 1-4 minutes shorter than in season 1.
Caitlyn has been spiraling down around this hate towards Jinx for months, how is it possible that she can meet Vi again WITHOUT asking about Jinx or mentioning her at all. Even a parallel to the shower scene at the end of Oil and Water to showcase how she was missing Vi and her regrets would have been great.
@ 3:37
No, they were not hunting.
Ambessa with her soldiers had tracked Warwick with Singe's help to Viktor's area and they were waiting in the area for Singe to get a reasonable reply from Viktor for the request of Warwick without triggering a violent outcome. Ambessa had stuck her weapon in the ground, Vi spotted it, got suspicious/curious and followed Singe, hence running into their hideout entrance which Caitlyn was guarding.
I had no issues with Cait’s depiction. I understood her feelings and actions at every step. It was all clear and straightforward to me. I’m honestly surprised to hear/read that many people feel otherwise.
Pacing was extremely fast in s1, but we were introduced to something new every ten minutes, we discovered the characters as we went through the episodes, in s2 we know piltover and zaun and we know the characters. Even if cait can do bad decisions, it wasn’t even a year apart, people take year to make a drastic change, we know caitlyn and it would feel very forced to make her a full on villain dictator, her character is to defined to make such a shift in so little episodes. Character can have development, but arcane is short, they won’t have full on transformations
I don’t look to arcane thinking how the character are gonna transform but rather how they will face the situation, how their personalities clash, not how they change. The inly realistic transformation is jayce as he lived seemingly years from when we last saw him
I felt confused by how much time had passed between certain episodes, and I didn’t like how many more characters and sub plots were introduced. I feel like it took away from Vi, Jinx, Caitlin, Jayce / Victor’s screen time, and I genuinely don’t know how well they’ll be able to wrap all of these additions up by the end.
From Act 1 Ep3 to Act 2 Ep1, 6 months had roughly passed. Jayce, Ekko, Heim & even Mel all disappeared around the same thing and Jayce’s return was roughly 7-8 months from the end of Act 2 (because remember Jayce had to make the Hex weapons) and Mel was there when Cait interrupted and shut him up to tell the remaining council her plan. The time passage then from Act 2 Ep6 to the return of Ekko if you pay attention to Heim when Ekko has asked how long they have been gone it’s been over 1000-1100 days thy have been missing since they time traveled.) So when they solve the reverse of Jayce’s time dilation equation that’s the part of the equation that Jayce started with first since the tune he was give (the one in his bracelet) was the rune that gave function to time travel. Jayce and his mom where not transported very far distance wise in Jayce’s Season 1 background but the mage did accelerate time where winter became spring and it’s that rune that Ekko fixated on for the z-drive to work. So when he returns he’s been gone roughly a year +/- a few months and of course he’s rewinding time in 4 second intervals with the z-drive but the contraption Heim steps out of is a World Rune like the z-drive one that’s floating around but it’s been amplified and has taken on a more massive shape to successfully replicate the z-drives functions but over a much longer time period. Maddie barging in and Cait telling her to leave allowed Maddie to relay to Ambessa what she felt their strategy was going to be which gave Ambessa and Singed time to create their apex shimmer soldiers, and get Victor evolved to Trojan Horse his shimmer/hextech/void corrupted cocoon like the one he was shot and killed in, but Ekko’s return right at the climax of what was looking to be a loosing battle and getting through to jinx causing Zaun to charge the gates allows for this timeline to be closest to how things played out. So Cait and Vi were apart roughly 6 months after A1Ep3 with Jayce returning around a month later same as Mel’s successful escape from Black Roses’ Occularium. Hope that helps!
I've heard a lot of people try to justify Caitlyn's heel-turn and the lack of a real "dictator arc" by saying that it all happened in-universe during the time skip and therefor it isn't out of character because, by the time we're seeing her again in episode 4, she's already begun to mistrust Ambessa and is searching for a way out.
Which essentially means that her whole fall-from-grace arc happened off screen.
Which, I just...how does that make it better? It's not a character arc if we never see it happen.
Caitlyn never did a heel turn. She started compromising and making bad calls, thats it. She never stopped caring about people, Zaunite or Piltie. She never became a warmonger, she has actively dissented the question during the whole show. She is exclusively focues her hatred on Jinx and the Chembarons. A focus/obsession which makes her call worse shots and partially blinds her, thats the isssue.
If you believe she somehow fundamentally changed at some point in act 1 and decended into a moral abyss, either the dictator memes got to you or you projected something on the screen that wasnt there.
While it is hard to inagine Caitlyn completely turning over. You have to admit there's probable cause for confusion on the writer's side which played into the warmongering narrative by showing she was willing to bypass collateral damage on Isha to get to Jinx. While you could argue she trusts her own skills that much, an enforcer should still know better than that.
@@MI24CL3 Her compromsing and putting on blinders in her pursuit of Jinx, especially at a critical moment is a part of Caitlyn issue, absolutely.
That does not at all translate to her turning into a vindictive autocrat out to punish the people of Zaun as a whole. Never in act 1 did I see that either happening or about to happen.
Caitlyn compromising and acting progressively more without caution, yes. Bloodthirsty and vindictive, absolutely not.
It doesn't make it better. Personally I think they went too hard on ep3 so people feel cheated. But you know what, I'm starting to think it's not that much of a bad thing. Because we already saw caitlyn breaking the Geneva conventions from ep2 and 3. All we will get is this on a greater scale. Granted a part of me can't help but think they didn't show this to make us keep liking her which is not something I'm a fan of
@@alexanderbergstrom4405I don't believe you can completely fault anyone for thinking she made a face heel turn after the end of ep3. Jinx and the chembaron stopped being the only focus of her hate when the memorial was attacked. Jinx is just the main one. That's the problem with all this. Her mother got killed by zaunites and she felt her gf betrayed her. 100% everyone and their grandma would think she did a face heel turn after act 1 conclusion. But then as the video said, act 2 came and focused on different things and even did a time skip. The only reason I forgive it is because I think she would do what she did in zaun initially just on a greater scale.
I hear what you're saying around 8:00, hoping Jinx Vi and Caitlyn get some consequences. But I can see the real story being that all those squabbles are meaningless relative to the relentless destruction of impending Arcane via the wild runes
thankyou for giving me something so entertaining, educating, and interesting to watch while i do cardio at the gym
imo, what we see at the end of episode 3 (the flashbacks, the way the assasination unfolds) was actually in Caitlyn's head. since she has great deductive skills, she has already connected the dots and saw Ambessa's motive, but she couldn't make a good decision in that moment, so had to swallow the bitter pill and accepted the offer as commander. Caitler, but not really Caitler.
This episode is my favorite of the whole series (so far). And yet my initial reaction was disappointment and anger. I was projecting what I WANTED to happen and judging off that. Time and rewatches changed my opinion dramatically.
I was first confused with the sharp turns of Arcane S2. We were gearing up for the Zaun-Piltover war for several years between the seasons and now it's just a different conflict all together. But I quickly realised that this is actually so life like. Even huge problems sometimes fade in the face of enormous problems. Sometimes your dad has cancer and you're trying to do everything to have him cured and then a full on war starts in your country, which does not erase your feelings about your dad's situation, but it does make things and priorities very different (talking about myself).
And similar logic works for the Cait arc. As people we love to see stories that have everything unfolding as a story should. But in life we do not get everything spelled out for us. It's all chaos of good and bad and everything inbetween. Sometimes it's worse. Sometimes it's better. But we can look for and find what we can make of it. When Vi decided to tell Cait about Warwick/Vander (she could have lied) she did not know the whole story of Caits pass throught the years they were apart. But she remembered Cait pre episode 3 and put all her faith in that Cait. So not having Cait's flip spelled for us SUUUUUper obviously is sort of how this happened for Vi. She sat on the image of Cait from the episode 3 for several years and then they meet and Cait offers help.
"You can't just go back in time."
Ekko: "Allow me to reintroduce myself."
It’s also hard when the whole first act felt like it pretty much centered around Caitlyn, and then act 2 we saw very little of her (BUT it’s worth it for the Warwick story and it makes sense!)
Tbh Caitlin had no tyrannical inclination towards her reign so whats to atone for. Im more in favor of Jinx receiving major repercussions because she's literally a cold blooded murdering terrorists but because zuan idealized her actions thanks to Isha she's looked at like a hero. I mean Cait fights for peace more than Jinx does yet Cait gets the hate for some reason.
I tend to agree. As much as I've been enjoying seeing a softer, more playful side of Jinx this season, people tend to forget she's done A LOT of bad things last season she still needs to atone for (namely the murder of Piltover enforcers, councilmen & even some members of the Firelights).
All cops are bastards, Caitlyn also comes from a position of massive privilege. Fuck her and all her cronies.
Vi is also not immune to this criticism, she is in fact the personification of police brutality in LoL.
@@cluster_f1575 Yup. Jinx needs to burn.
4:57
Not to mentionthat she probably did not attack Jinx there because of Vi.
Capturing Jinx is important to Caitly, but Vi's happiness is even more important to her.
I think that is also why there is no "you did not tell me, you were working with Jinx"-bullshit in act 3.
Caitlyn knows Jinx is important to Vi, being part of her family....even after all the things Jinx did.
6:24 Excuse me, what? Leaving this scene longer is absolutely unnecessary. I guess the creators thought their audience was smart enough to not need hand-holding. It would just be insulting the viewer's intelligence. Before seeing this video, I had no idea that there were people who apparently didn't understand the connection between Caitlyn - whose driving motivator is the death of a parent - wanting to help a loved one whose driving motivator is the desire to undo a parent's death. If Caitlyn had the option of undoing her own parent's death, of course she'd do that too. It seems blatantly obvious to me why she would choose to support Vi in this.
And I'm really not someone who normally picks up on any subtlety, so I've got to conclude that this wasn't subtle.
Even something as minor as changing her facial expressions during her interactions with Ambessa would be detrimental to her characterization. The show gave us enough to let us know that she isn't fully onboard with Ambessa's ideology, and then proceeded to make it believable that she doesn't view herself as a victim of manipulation. If her facial expressions were constantly "questioning," it would paint her as much more vulnerable. She didn't buy into Ambessa's talk, but she did have confidence in her own judgment and her own ability to get the best out of Ambessa while discarding the undesirable parts of her mentorship.
Ambessa also got to her in a time of emotional vulnerability, but time heals all wounds, and that vulnerability wasn't going to stay there forever. Ambessa is not a master manipulator, who could have prevented Caitlyn from finding herself again. The question was never "will she turn against Ambessa?" but simply "WHEN will she turn against Ambessa?" Vi simply gave her a good reason to choose THAT moment.
I don't think Caitlyn's arc in act 2 doesn't make sense, she always had her doubts about Ambessa because she isn't a fool, everything that happens makes sense with what we were presented... but it could have been so much more. The fact we never see any follow through on Caitlyn becomming a dictator bent on revenge is so dissapointing, right now sue has very little to atone for because seemingly all she's done is be indifferent to Ambessa. She even confronts Ambessa about the brutality in the prison, implying it's not something that's been happenning regularly to her knowledge. Ambessa was the one at fault for everything and Cait was only a bystander as the show presents it. It would be so much more interesting if she had agancy, if we got to see her spiralling and actually committing amoral acts of her own, thus giving her character more of a morally grey nature. It's frustrating because her arc in act 1 of getting her to this point was actual perfection, it blew me away and made me more excited to see what would happen next than almost anything, taking the love interest from the first season with minimal development and taking her to a place where she can logically become the villain for a while, it was brilliant. And then they wasted it, I don't think anyone would mind how she was handled in act 2 if her setup in act 1 wasn't so brilliant.
Everything else can I believe be fixed by act 3, if she has a real reaction to Jinx and that conflict remains critical, it can be made better, but there's no way to fix the wasted potentual of her plotline in act 2. The one actual complaint I have relating to what was actually in the show rather than what could have been is that in the shot where they exit the tent, she's standing next to Jinx and she has her gun. It's not that she should have shot her right then and there, but having her look away as if it was any random character was weird. If in its place, we had the same shot, only Caitlyn was stairing intensely at Jinx, only taking her eyes off her when Warwick goes rabid and Ambessa turned up, it would feel like the conflict was still very alive. I think Cait is too senseable to try and just kill Jinx in this scenario, but she should not be casually taking her eyes off her.
For the rest, time will only tell. I honestly don't think episode 6 was a good place to have the break, it hasn't increased hype, it's just allowed a lot of us to turn sour, and at this point, even if act 3 adresses everything, our memories of the season will always be marred by rememberring the weak we were dissapointed for.
Ambesa says Vi left a hole in Caitlyn that she was able to fill. Maybe Mels disappearance left a hole in Ambesa that Caitlyn was able to fill? When she sees Caitlyn with Vi and Jinx, she looks more shocked and betrayed than if she was just using her. She obviously is manipulating her, but maybe there's a little more to it?
Whole series is finished now. And there wasn't alot of those 'consequences' for any of the characters. (Which is different than narrative consequences of course. Or the narrative portrayal of what was correct.)
And I think that's on purpose. I think between the points of 'forgiveness' and 'change'. With even Mel not trying to completely doom her mother to the Black Rose's mercy. There was a statement here on how shallow punishment can be, and perhaps a tendency we can have to overvalue the practice.
That scene where the Piltover officer is helping the Zonite elder onto the train particularly comes to mind for the communication of this message.
Thoughts?
By this point, the grace I had for fans of a piece of media catastrophizing about how something "ruined" it has run dry.
i thought arcane had avoided it but people always seem to find a way lol
It's a tiny minority. There's always going to be some, and we live in an age of social media where you can't avoid them
I wouldn’t say it’s ruined and we do have a third of the show left, but at least with what we have, I will say that s2 isn’t the near perfect masterpiece s1 was. It’s more of a flawed but great season so far, it’s just a shame it couldn’t keep that sky high bar going.
In some cases it’s sort of understandable or even partially justified. It is neither in Arcane’s case.
@@thecod2345 yeah it's not like the critique is that it's bad -- it's mostly just people saying it's great but not as perfect as season 1. Not bad at all, I'd say😂
6:05 Doesn't Cait arguably try and kill Ambessa in this scene? What if she hits more than her cheek? I dunno I always saw that moment of Cait striking back in a deadly manner as her at least subconsciously being against Ambessa.
I think the fact that we never see jinx and vi hashing things out is part of the poetry of that episode. They aren’t fully developed individuals. I dont mean that in terms of their characters, but as people. Theres an impossibility to this commune, it can’t work. And their coming together is as thin as anything else here. And in order for them to truly unite it would take far far greater effort on both their parts utilizing the skills they have, not demanding skills that they both very much do not have - which would be talking and working through things like that. They are action based, and it will take a lot more for them to come together than the offer of tranquility and peace. They’re not tranquil people no matter how much they’d like to be. And thats the tragedy.
The parts of Vander's backstory is already laid out in the first act of first season. Vander was known as the 'Hound of the Underground '. This is a fighter title. He has trained Vi in boxing since even before she and Powder lost their parents. The 'Hound' part alludes to 'feral' component of his fighting style. Never back down, huge levels of pain resistance and relentless and probably rather short tempered. So the beast he was transformed into probably aligned more with his inner self than you can imagine.
honestly i agree with the "moving too fast" part. I still love Caitlyn and dont get the recent hate she's been getting, but i do understand that feeling of.. "Woah, okay, didn't know you suddenly felt that way" towards Cait.
I dont understand all of these videos about the problems with S2 when the season is not yet over
"I do think we can criticize Act 2 more than any other Act, but what about what works?"
Very well said.
Overall, I really dislike the feeling of being confused and not knowing if you "should" be annoyed with the story because "the season isn't over yet". It takes me out of the story and I'm sitting there waiting for some kind of clarity of how to feel, because those confusing things just keep gnawing at me. This wasn't an issue in season 1, because the character beats were clear, they didn't hide things from the audience like the whole "why did Jayce and Mel survive the explosion unscathed even though they were in the direct line of fire?" I couldn't tell if they had just retconned their positions, if they had plot-armour, or if it was an intentional thing because the characters didn't express any incredulity or confusion over it. Just as an example. It kept bothering me all the way until *act 3* which I think is *way* too long to give answers when you can't even tell if it's intentional or not.
Then there was the confusion around why Jayce killed Victor. Even at the end of the series I didn't feel like I understood why he did that because it only seemed to *cause* Victor to become genocidal, when he had up until then been this magnanimous, peaceful Jesus-figure. It was as if Jayce was the cause of the chain-reaction of destruction, and I kept waiting to understand what he was trying to do and why. It took so long before we could catch up with him and how he remotely got there. It mostly showed us the practical ways he got there, not how he got to the point of deciding Victor had to die to fix it. That world he was trapped in was the result of the Victor he triggered when he attacked him. Victor hadn't shifted his perspective to thinking "everyone needs to be the same so there'll be no conflict" until the destruction took place. Then at the end, future Victor waffles on about why that "everyone needs to be a hivemind" perspective sucks, but he didn't even have that stance until Jayce attacked him?
There were multiple things like that this season where they create these confusions, and you don't feel like you're experiencing the story alongside the characters like in season 1, but rather you're always working overtime trying to keep up with them. I think it's telling that people had a hard time understanding the character progressions in season 2, but there was very little confusion in season 1. I'll have an easier time probably when rewatching season 2, cus I'll have the clarity that they held from us throughout the season, but it was very frustrating the first watch.
I love Arcane, so obviously I want to enjoy it, because I really like how they write these characters. I just wish they had prioritised less surprises and shock value, and trust the audience to be interested in the characters enough to not hold information hostage in ways they didn't do before. They know we're invested as f*ck. The moments in season 2 people seem to love the most are those when we're experiencing them alongside the characters and we aren't wondering what's going on. There's suspense in the way they did things in season 1, where we know the characters motivations and how they *will* clash any moment. So the confusion all just seems so... needless. And that's frustrating.
What about what we see on screen makes us understand how Isha's presence in Jinx's life makes Jinx understand better Vi?
Singed is just the Devil using his daughter as an excuse to do his chaotic experiments
I think the reason we never get to see jinx and vi have a deeper argument has to do woth the fact that arcane does not exoist in a vacuum. It depicts the past of characters that have well established lore already, so we do know where they eventually end up. Vi and Jinx dont ever get to really reconcile because in the present, which is still quite a few years after the events of arcane take place, they still dont have a good relationship. Cait and Vi are still hunting her and jinx is still causing mayhem and destruction where ever she goes. Of course some of the story has already been changed to create a more compelling narative, but it qas confirmed that arcanes events do not contradict the current state of the world of runeterra and simply take place in the past, so jinx and vi will never get to be a happy family in the end.
It really hurts me when people overhate Caitlyn. Caitlyn got kidnapped while naked by Jinx, then watched as Jinx dropped a gun in Vi's lap and get rid of her, then watched Jinx blow up her mom. Then, at the memorial, they get attacked. And people act like she was just going to be like "oh okay." People are quick to call her a facist or a dictator, and they use The Gray against her, but she didn't gas the entire undercity. She did it to get Jinx and to dismantle Shimmer. She was also wildly manipulated by both Ambessa and Maddie. She didn't choose to become a Commander, Ambessa saw her as moldable. A lot of people are saying that because Jinx had more trauma that Caitlyn is just a bad person and character. Most would've gone off the rails, but Caitlyn's good heart won in the end. The same people that preach "your trauma is valid!" are quick to hate Caitlyn and quick to forgive Jinx. Caitlyn got kidnapped, and her captor killed her mother. Then the same person who kidnapped her and killed her mother is hailed as a hero. She's not wrong for going after a criminal. Of course, she's not perfect and made many mistakes, but if we can forgive Jinx, we should be able to forgive Caitlyn.
Its not the pacing, it's actually a slower act. But it doesn't use that time to focus on the things it should have
Cause Caitlyn is just one of these examples
This is exactly the wording I was looking for but failing to find, thank you! More runtime would obviously help solve some issues but it doesn't magically fix pacing, that requires better structure and focus
Right now i just think its fine but i reallylove your perspective, i hope on a rewatch i can see it like you
I just feel like most of these so called fans have been obsessing over this show for 3 years, theorizing about things they made up in their own heads, that they want the show to fulfil their fan fiction. The only criticism that makes sense to me is spending a little more time on Darth Caitlyn and showing how the martial law in Zaun began, with Caitlyn becoming more doubtful of Ambessa's methods.
The show has already shown Caitlyn to be very discerning and intuitive, we see this in season 1 and season 2 when she is looking over crime scenes, she quickly puts things together and usually comes to the right conclusion, at least when she is not clouded by emotions. I can understand people wanting to spend more time with these characters and fleshing out all the storylines, but season 2 to me has been the epitome of efficient storytelling. No wasted scenes used for filler content or unnecessary fan service. There are also people that want their hands held through everything, those types will always complain when things are not spoon-fed to them.
Idk the pacing seem fine in season one to me compared to season two still love the show buts it’s not as good as season one to me
6:50 i think it was perfect as it is. i don't think cait and vi would have a heart to heart talk after how things endeed. i think the love they felt for each other is enough to say a few words and do big actions
Ironically, I had less issues with Act 2 over Act 1 when bringing up anything in regards to pacing. I find it funny it's the opposite of a lot of other people.
Part of that problem of "pacing" for me however, is the fact Season 1 had a LOT of moments of two characters having conversations with each other, ones where you get a deeper connection forming or you as the viewer can sit with it on an emotional level. Season 2 has a LOT less of that, and as such many parts feel like they are flying by a bit faster than the previous season.
I do agree that certain aspects should still need to be dealt with between characters and the regions of Pilt and Zuan, though if it ends up happening how I'm currently thinking it might or might not happen since in my mind I'm guessing Ambessa is going to try and forcefully take over Piltover after losing everything that matters to her and perhaps some in Piltover side with her, but Zuan has to act as the rebellious side where many are helping fight to oust Noxious forces.
I could be completely wrong, and I'll know later tonight, it'll be interesting to see how they are choosing to end this conflict and what the Arcane is going to do in this situation and the results. Regardless though, I still feel Season 1 is a more powerful and stronger paced season and unless Act 3 does something special with itself, I'll likely continue to feel that way. Season 2 isn't bad in any way, just not 100% what I was hoping for. Pacing or not.
Also I disagree about Isha. I fully believe she understands and grasps it. She was likely forced to grow up in certain ways living in Zuan, a lot of people forget this, and she recognizes what she's doing and what the result will be. She is still a child, so that lack of experience and some naivety exists of course, but there was a need that she saw and someone who inspired her to be more than what she was. She was forced to grow up in that moment and make a choice. And she did.
see i understand why caitlyn was ready to betray ambessa. the show made it obvious how little they trusted each other, and caitlyn's morals are too strong to side with noxus. ep. 6's flip is not surprising. but i found it so painfully unsatisfying. when caitlyn was sworn in as commander in that intense ending to ep. 3, and i expected to see her commit to the role. but no, her dictator arc is crammed into a 2 min musical montage and the first scene after her appointment is her DOUBTING herself. she's already tired of the power. that is so deeply disappointing to me as someone who wanted to see that arc play out naturally
i find it surprising that people find that many flaws with act2. personally i loved it, especially because ww is my 2nd main and the blood hunt scenes were fantastically done