This episode is so great. I really appreciate the open minded approach and the obvious desire of everyone on the show to figure out what the best way to understand the material is. I really appreciate all of you for being a good example to others for how reasonable people should talk with each other and how we should approach issues that are ambiguous enough to allow for disagreement among reasonable men. I grew up being taught the mainstream idea of people going to heaven or hell at death. Later I studied the issue for myself and came to a view very like Sam's, basically that the wicked will be destroyed after the judgement but I don't have a clear idea of what all happens during the interim. Based on some of the texts that were discussed in this episode I supposed that there may be a wide variety of experiences in sheol and that the experience could vary from time to time depending on the circumstances, that sometimes people might be conscious and other times not. Since then I have thought about it a little and while I still don't really know what happens I do have a tentative theory about why the Bible is less than clear about what goes on during that time. The passage in 1 Peter 3:18 talks about Jesus preaching to imprisoned spirits who had died in the flood. I find this hard to reconcile with the idea that everybody is just unconscious from death until the resurrection. And, it does seem to imply that these people who apparently died in their sins might have been given a second chance to repent during the intermediate state, but we are not given any details about how that might work or who else if anyone will be given a second chance to repent. It seems to me that the main thrust of scripture is the call for people to repent now and to be refined into the people God wants us to be now. I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that creating this world for us to inhabit during this time was done primarily to give us that opportunity. If that is true then it also seems to me that giving us all the details about how the second chance would be offered and what category of people would be offered a second chance could compromise the primary purpose of this creation. Leaving the details ambiguous but giving a bit of information for those who care enough to really study seems like a reasonable plan. I think God likes for people to seek Him and the ones who do can benefit both from the inherent benefits of the knowledge they can gather and from the extrinsic rewards God may reward them with later for seeking Him.
Ecclesiastes is a goldmine when it comes to consciousness and disposition of the dead. see, ex, Ecclesiastes 9:6-10. I don't think Dustin is disagreeing that there is a holding place where a person "goes". A verse Sam has to reconcile with his view is where Ecclesiastes says there is "no thought or remembrance in the grave"; dreams would be thought and/or remembrance
One of the things people don't often think of or bring into play, is the salvation through Christ. If the dead for instance, raised up to Heaven, and we apply this to figures like Enoch or Moses as raised in the video for instance, what need is there for Christ? He died so we can live. If one can attain some heavenly afterlife (this isn't resurrection of course) in the body and soul, or one or the other, then it seems to make Christ moot. The Messianic prophecies throughout the OT, is in order that the world will be fixed and the bodies of the dead will rise. Thus, promoting a view where, people can go to Heaven at death in body/soul, before the time of Christ at least, would seem to contradict such a notion. And I think that's why John's Gospel makes a point that "nobody has been to Heaven but the one from Heaven, the Son of Man". John/Jesus (depending on how one interprets who is speaking in the passage) I believe is being corrective toward the traditions existing at the time revolving around afterlife. One of course might still argue that there are souls in Sheol awaiting resurrection of the body (in a sleeping state I'd argue without consciousness, potentially being able to be 'woken' by necromancers if we take the Witch of Endor example - though I lean toward this being a demonic deception as only God and to those he grants has power over life and death). But anything to do with Heavenly ascension post or pre Christ, I'd not hold to at all. For both ideas contradict what the mission of the Messiah was supposed to be in the OT, and was depicted to be in the NT.
Every time I watch a video about this subject I become very frustrated because in the majority of these discussions there is something missing that everybody seem to forget and it makes it more difficult to debate. Notice that they both speak about the soul and I know that each have their own definition but is missing from the discussion. .. No debate or discussion of this subject should start by IGNORING this important detail . . When I have this conversations with friends , I will not discuss it until I get or give my definition to establish , what is man , what is death , and then what is the soul.? Many believe in a tripartite creation , body soul and spirit , I have a totally different biblical view that is different than what traditional Christianity teaches. To me this is very important and it is the first priority in the discussion This will make it easier because if you assume that you have a soul and I believe that I don't have a soul , we need to hear your position because without this information and clarification all the difficult questions will become more difficult if you do not explain the mos important word that you will mention the most in the whole conversation. Notice that is very typical how the story of the Rich man and Lazarus always is brought up to prove consciousness after death and t every single person who wants to prove to you that in the story you have 3 disembodied SOULS in a conversation in Hades when the word SOUL is not even mentioned in the story. Talk about reading beyond what is written this is the best example . This subject alone has plenty of scriptures to debunk the idea that the dead is alive and conscious. Its amazing how many people are very satisfied with the story of Luck 16 and for then what ever is written in the bible about death is irrelevant and prefer to go to other sources other than the bible to prove their point.
"Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43) and "He is not God of the dead, but of the living" (Matt 22:32) should make this something of a slam dunk for Bible believing Christians.
Not really... Seeing as how Israelites had the habit of following other gods, "God of the living" is probably used to distinguish from dead gods or the state of death which neither are the creations of the true God.... Example: Egyptian Book of the Dead.
I think Dustin nailed it. I see our life force going back to God, and death as a state of complete unconsciousness until the resurrection. Is it our brain that dreams at night? Or is it our 'soul'? Where are our thoughts and memories kept? Is our head an empty vat where our soul resides? Are we going to be dreaming until the day of resurrection? How can we be in a half state of low existence in some Greek mythological place called Hades and Tartarus without the physical body? All love to all and no offense to Sam as we are all brothers with a zeal for God and the truth, but I do think this position is silly and quite irresponsible. It reminds me of trinitarian thought and logic, an inability to discern what is and isn't literal or physical. I don't claim to be perfect and I'm still using a fine tooth comb over things. But I think the staunch Christadelphian position on this topic is the correct one, though I am always open to hearing others opinions, collecting more information and data and being like a child in learning with humility and leaving pride at the door. I think we should be asking ourselves, does this affect the gospel of the kingdom, and is it compatible with Christs death and purpose on the cross?
48:40 "In the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him came and defeated the Rephaim at Ashteroth-karnaim, the Zuzim at Ham, the Emim at Shaveh-kiriathaim,"
I personally don't have a dog in this fight. I did favor the perspective of unconscious state of the soul post-death, but Sam raises some good points. Perhaps there is a bit more nuance involved. Ultimately, I believe this shouldn't be a divisive matter. However, I would be curious if there are any potential negative consequences that might arise from adopting one viewpoint over another.
Sam's position makes much more sense. There is no knowledge and activity in Hades because it is not a place where houses need to be built, and business needs to be conducted. Souls just kind of hang around there in that grey and dreary world, waiting for the day of resurrection, and nothing more. I guess it's a kind of being dead yet conscious.
I vehemently disagree. As respectful as I can be saying this, and I mean no maliciousness at all. But I think Sam is an example that just because someone denies the trinity with a fine tooth comb, doesn't mean their thinking is consistent. He quotes church fathers and appeals to them, but would reject their trinitarian philosophy. As far as I'm aware, they are not a good source for truth, but a source for understanding what the early church believed. Don't forget, they are still heavily manipulated by Greek philosophy and thought. Hades is Greek mythology, the Greek equivalence of the Hebrew Sheol. What about Tartarus? It's synonymous with Hades. We have to be more diligent and realistic. Sam seems to still be stuck in Greek mythology and philosophy, not seeing the symbolic meaning behind the passages or the reason for the appeal to the language for the audience, who were Greek. Dead yet conscious is an oxymoron.
To answer your question, Chezi: Because he lives and has ascended to the throne of God. Because he lives, we live. "For me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain." (Philippians 1:21)
Hey there buddy ol pals. You know what would be more profitable for the christian body? Having a clear and simple doctrine for people to follow that is not ambiguous pointless debating. But hey, you went to college to be a christian so what else would you be doing right?
Poor benighted unitarians who fail to receive the Scriptures' testimony as to how God become man, the Lord Jesus Christ, has, by his death, resurrection and ascension, transformed the state of the dead, and brought the faithful to union with him in heaven.
@@MichaelTheophilus906 In the Person of Jesus Christ he died as man. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty....I am the first and the last; I am he that liveth, and was dead, and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1.8 &18
@@MichaelTheophilus906 It is Jesus Christ, as God, who is speaking, in verse 11 too "the first and the last", the same expression used inverse 18 by Jesus. It is his revelation and command to John to write. The God who is Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end, says he was dead and is alive forevermore.
Uncredentialed and unpretentious as he is, Sam presents his arguments spot on.
This episode is so great. I really appreciate the open minded approach and the obvious desire of everyone on the show to figure out what the best way to understand the material is. I really appreciate all of you for being a good example to others for how reasonable people should talk with each other and how we should approach issues that are ambiguous enough to allow for disagreement among reasonable men.
I grew up being taught the mainstream idea of people going to heaven or hell at death. Later I studied the issue for myself and came to a view very like Sam's, basically that the wicked will be destroyed after the judgement but I don't have a clear idea of what all happens during the interim. Based on some of the texts that were discussed in this episode I supposed that there may be a wide variety of experiences in sheol and that the experience could vary from time to time depending on the circumstances, that sometimes people might be conscious and other times not.
Since then I have thought about it a little and while I still don't really know what happens I do have a tentative theory about why the Bible is less than clear about what goes on during that time. The passage in 1 Peter 3:18 talks about Jesus preaching to imprisoned spirits who had died in the flood. I find this hard to reconcile with the idea that everybody is just unconscious from death until the resurrection. And, it does seem to imply that these people who apparently died in their sins might have been given a second chance to repent during the intermediate state, but we are not given any details about how that might work or who else if anyone will be given a second chance to repent.
It seems to me that the main thrust of scripture is the call for people to repent now and to be refined into the people God wants us to be now. I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that creating this world for us to inhabit during this time was done primarily to give us that opportunity. If that is true then it also seems to me that giving us all the details about how the second chance would be offered and what category of people would be offered a second chance could compromise the primary purpose of this creation. Leaving the details ambiguous but giving a bit of information for those who care enough to really study seems like a reasonable plan. I think God likes for people to seek Him and the ones who do can benefit both from the inherent benefits of the knowledge they can gather and from the extrinsic rewards God may reward them with later for seeking Him.
" And the dust returns to the ground As it was ,And the lifebreath returns to God Who bestowed it." Ecclesiastes 12:7
Ecclesiastes is a goldmine when it comes to consciousness and disposition of the dead. see, ex, Ecclesiastes 9:6-10.
I don't think Dustin is disagreeing that there is a holding place where a person "goes". A verse Sam has to reconcile with his view is where Ecclesiastes says there is "no thought or remembrance in the grave"; dreams would be thought and/or remembrance
One of the things people don't often think of or bring into play, is the salvation through Christ. If the dead for instance, raised up to Heaven, and we apply this to figures like Enoch or Moses as raised in the video for instance, what need is there for Christ? He died so we can live.
If one can attain some heavenly afterlife (this isn't resurrection of course) in the body and soul, or one or the other, then it seems to make Christ moot. The Messianic prophecies throughout the OT, is in order that the world will be fixed and the bodies of the dead will rise.
Thus, promoting a view where, people can go to Heaven at death in body/soul, before the time of Christ at least, would seem to contradict such a notion. And I think that's why John's Gospel makes a point that "nobody has been to Heaven but the one from Heaven, the Son of Man". John/Jesus (depending on how one interprets who is speaking in the passage) I believe is being corrective toward the traditions existing at the time revolving around afterlife.
One of course might still argue that there are souls in Sheol awaiting resurrection of the body (in a sleeping state I'd argue without consciousness, potentially being able to be 'woken' by necromancers if we take the Witch of Endor example - though I lean toward this being a demonic deception as only God and to those he grants has power over life and death).
But anything to do with Heavenly ascension post or pre Christ, I'd not hold to at all. For both ideas contradict what the mission of the Messiah was supposed to be in the OT, and was depicted to be in the NT.
Thanks for this conversation.
Every time I watch a video about this subject I become very frustrated because in the majority of these discussions there is something missing that everybody seem to forget and it makes it more difficult to debate.
Notice that they both speak about the soul and I know that each have their own definition but is missing from the discussion. ..
No debate or discussion of this subject should start by IGNORING this important detail . . When I have this conversations with friends , I will not discuss it until I get or give my definition to establish , what is man , what is death , and then what is the soul.?
Many believe in a tripartite creation , body soul and spirit , I have a totally different biblical view that is different than what traditional Christianity teaches.
To me this is very important and it is the first priority in the discussion
This will make it easier because if you assume that you have a soul and I believe that I don't have a soul , we need to hear your position because without this information and clarification all the difficult questions will become more difficult if you do not explain the mos important word that you will mention the most in the whole conversation.
Notice that is very typical how the story of the Rich man and Lazarus always is brought up to prove consciousness after death and t every single person who wants to prove to you that in the story you have 3 disembodied SOULS in a conversation in Hades when the word SOUL is not even mentioned in the story. Talk about reading beyond what is written this is the best example . This subject alone has plenty of scriptures to debunk the idea that the dead is alive and conscious.
Its amazing how many people are very satisfied with the story of Luck 16 and for then what ever is written in the bible about death is irrelevant and prefer to go to other sources other than the bible to prove their point.
"Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43) and "He is not God of the dead, but of the living" (Matt 22:32) should make this something of a slam dunk for Bible believing Christians.
Not really... Seeing as how Israelites had the habit of following other gods, "God of the living" is probably used to distinguish from dead gods or the state of death which neither are the creations of the true God.... Example: Egyptian Book of the Dead.
Oh cool! Thanks Sean, Sam and Dustin for this
43:35 they are in fact attributed to a specific individual " Only King Og of Bashan was left of the remaining Rephaim..."
I think Dustin nailed it. I see our life force going back to God, and death as a state of complete unconsciousness until the resurrection. Is it our brain that dreams at night? Or is it our 'soul'? Where are our thoughts and memories kept? Is our head an empty vat where our soul resides? Are we going to be dreaming until the day of resurrection? How can we be in a half state of low existence in some Greek mythological place called Hades and Tartarus without the physical body?
All love to all and no offense to Sam as we are all brothers with a zeal for God and the truth, but I do think this position is silly and quite irresponsible. It reminds me of trinitarian thought and logic, an inability to discern what is and isn't literal or physical. I don't claim to be perfect and I'm still using a fine tooth comb over things. But I think the staunch Christadelphian position on this topic is the correct one, though I am always open to hearing others opinions, collecting more information and data and being like a child in learning with humility and leaving pride at the door.
I think we should be asking ourselves, does this affect the gospel of the kingdom, and is it compatible with Christs death and purpose on the cross?
A trinity of unitarians. The only kind of trinity I approve of :)
48:40 "In the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him came and defeated the Rephaim at Ashteroth-karnaim, the Zuzim at Ham, the Emim at Shaveh-kiriathaim,"
I personally don't have a dog in this fight. I did favor the perspective of unconscious state of the soul post-death, but Sam raises some good points. Perhaps there is a bit more nuance involved. Ultimately, I believe this shouldn't be a divisive matter. However, I would be curious if there are any potential negative consequences that might arise from adopting one viewpoint over another.
Who wants to listen to sermons about how wonderful heaven is? It's like listening to sermons about why we must believe in the trinity.
Sam's position makes much more sense.
There is no knowledge and activity in Hades because it is not a place where houses need to be built, and business needs to be conducted.
Souls just kind of hang around there in that grey and dreary world, waiting for the day of resurrection, and nothing more.
I guess it's a kind of being dead yet conscious.
I vehemently disagree. As respectful as I can be saying this, and I mean no maliciousness at all. But I think Sam is an example that just because someone denies the trinity with a fine tooth comb, doesn't mean their thinking is consistent. He quotes church fathers and appeals to them, but would reject their trinitarian philosophy. As far as I'm aware, they are not a good source for truth, but a source for understanding what the early church believed. Don't forget, they are still heavily manipulated by Greek philosophy and thought. Hades is Greek mythology, the Greek equivalence of the Hebrew Sheol. What about Tartarus? It's synonymous with Hades. We have to be more diligent and realistic. Sam seems to still be stuck in Greek mythology and philosophy, not seeing the symbolic meaning behind the passages or the reason for the appeal to the language for the audience, who were Greek.
Dead yet conscious is an oxymoron.
Heat!!!
Sam did we discuss this ?
I would love to
@@transfigured3673post holidays
10:49 Elijah ???
@@chezispero3533 let me know when you're ready
Who can count the dust of Jacob, Number the dust-cloud of Israel? May I die the death of the upright, May my fate be like theirs! Numbers 23:10
Dang, I need to clean my room.
Jordan Peterson agrees
💜✝️💜✝️💜
33:52 רפאים are seen as fallen angels shamchazi and Azazel and their descendants the giants and eventually goliath
2:25 but Jesus was Jewish why deny his own traditions understanding ?
To answer your question, Chezi: Because he lives and has ascended to the throne of God. Because he lives, we live. "For me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain." (Philippians 1:21)
My dead wife even though she's ashes in a box and she's really not dead? Weird...
Jesus didn't die....that's weird too.
The witch of Endor ?!?
"Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me and brought me up?”
I should have trusted you to mention this
I have never believed that it was actually Samuel speaking to Saul, but a ‘familiar’ spirit (evil) who pretended to be Samuel
definitely a familiar spirit.
Hey there buddy ol pals. You know what would be more profitable for the christian body? Having a clear and simple doctrine for people to follow that is not ambiguous pointless debating. But hey, you went to college to be a christian so what else would you be doing right?
42:47 ר.פ.א healing ר.פ.ה weak
Ah, no they are dead.
Poor benighted unitarians who fail to receive the Scriptures' testimony as to how God become man, the Lord Jesus Christ, has, by his death, resurrection and ascension, transformed the state of the dead, and brought the faithful to union with him in heaven.
God cannot die.
@@MichaelTheophilus906 In the Person of Jesus Christ he died as man. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty....I am the first and the last; I am he that liveth, and was dead, and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1.8 &18
@@anselman3156 Rev 1:8 is God, the Father, speaking. Context is important.
@@MichaelTheophilus906 It is Jesus Christ, as God, who is speaking, in verse 11 too "the first and the last", the same expression used inverse 18 by Jesus. It is his revelation and command to John to write. The God who is Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end, says he was dead and is alive forevermore.
@@anselman3156 Rev 1:8 is God speaking.