4:38 This chord is generated by the same slightly sharp subminor third that's used to make Orwell scales, so it shows up a lot in them! One interesting thing about it is that every interval in it has a relatively simple JI interpretation: one subminor third is, of course, a 7/6, two of them make an 11/8, and three make an 8/5. A few other edos, such as 31 and 53, have their own takes on this chord (and the Orwell scale) with the same properties as in 22edo!
“… which shuffles some of the thirds around, yada yada yada, let’s play some chords!” Right answer, Dave! I love Theory too, but ultimately all that matters is making music!
Cool video! Would like to see different mappings for 22-EDO in the future though, such as Porcupine and Orwell mappings. Have you set up your Lumatone Mappings Library yet, where we can all share our creations?
I’m historically a woodwind-and-strings dude, who hasn’t done a whole lot with keyboards. That is, until I got my Lumatone, which has turned my appreciation of keyboards around 180 degrees (or maybe ~195 degrees 🤪). So, admittedly, since I’m simultaneously learning basic keyboard skills as well, I haven’t worked with 22TET, and in fact I’ve mostly just worked with 31TET so far. I have a lot of respect and curiosity for how 22 turns a lot of our Meantone-oriented expectations all around sideways! Back in 1979, I refretted a pawnshop-special guitar to 22TET, but never got much chance to experiment with it. I still have it though! Anyway, once I do experiment with 22, I’m not confident that I’ll be able to deal with the ways that it “shuffles some of the thirds around.” Quite a change it would seem, compared to guitar, but I’ll see when I get there!
Thank you for making a 22-EDO Chord Shapes video! I really like the sub major 7 chord at 3:54 as it sounds like a more in-tune version of the minor major 7 chord found in 12-EDO (probably because of the 7/6 subminor third). The improv at 5:08 using the G sub major 7 chord sounded very beautiful! There is one little thing I noticed: at 3:28, this chord is written as vvE supermajor. For legibility purposes, I think it would have been better to write this chord as ^Eb supermajor or Fb supermajor (vvE = ^Eb = Fb in 22-EDO) as double up or down arrows become harder to read. Overall, amazing demonstration of what this tuning can offer!
Seems like you really have to cramp your 4th finger for some of those chords, suggesting that another layout might be better. I went back to the equivalent videos for 19EDO and 17EDO and they don't seem to do this so much -- especially not 19EDO, where you do see some odd finger configurations, but it looks like you could instead use a replicate not lower on the keyboard to get a reasonably comfortable convex finger pattern (but looks like if you tried to do that in 22EDO, you might disarticulate your little finger). Also would like to see how the next diaschismic tuning = 34EDO compares for hand position needed to get the same chords. Yes, I can look at a Lumatone mapping and get a decent preliminary idea, but still good to see what the fingers are actually doing. That said, I am going to guess that you can probably get decent finger positions by using the Tetracot layout, although some common intervals are still not going to be ideal. In 34EDO you don't get septimal and undecimal intervals that are as good, but you get REALLY GOOD 5-limit intervals -- the 5th is only +3.9 cents sharp, which is not bad (same as 17EDO, and compare to 22EDO which is way sharp = +7.1 cents, or to 31EDO or 19EDO which are way flat = -5.2 cents or -7.2 cents, respectively, although at least the latter falls almost right on top of 112/75). The next diaschismic tuning after that = 46EDO is attractive for being good all the way up to the 11 limit, including giving you a good full set of blue notes (including near-just major and minor thirds if not as good as in 34EDO) and a fifth that is only +2.4 cents sharp, BUT all of the keyboard layouts I have seen for it are AWFUL, requiring you to be a hybrid between an octopus and a spider to reach common simple intervals, including playing a simple C major scale. My best guess is that maybe somebody could come up with some sort of rotated Amity layout or maybe extend the Porcupine-Tetracot keyboard layout continuum to get better ergonomics. I am beginning to feel a need for a generalized diaschismic layout, along the lines of what is available for meantone (labeled Pythagorean), magic, miracle, Orwell, etc. . . .
One reason diaschismatic layouts don't translate so easily is because the whole tone is equally split into two semitones, which you need along an axis. Semi-tones (15:16=128:135=16:17=17:18) along the usual minor second axis and then probably 9:10 small major seconds along the usual major second axis might allow easy enough 5-limit harmony, but it will probably mess other things up. I'm pretty happy playing in Bosanquet (in 22, 46) and multi-ring Bosanquet (in 34) although 58 is a bit of a pain in the ass for its verticality. I'd say try a few things out and compare, see what works for you.
Btw 34-equal sounds pretty great in my opinion, all the way through prime 17, ignoring 19 and then bringing back in 23. Almost everything is sharp, which leads to a cool bright kind of aesthetic. Doesn't look as good on paper as it actually sounds.
@@camtaylormusic I saw your video of 58EDO as 2 rings of 29EDO (in fact, listening to it again now), but did you try the different 58EDO layouts (4 of them) that they have on Xenharmonic Wiki? The diaschismic one for that (first one) looks decent at least for easy 5-limit playing.
If this polyphonic microtonal music sounded beautiful, this resource would be an astounding development. The problem is, it doesn’t. There’s no way around the problem that harmony and counterpoint can’t be done with more than 12 notes. It just doesn’t work.
@@ian.mikyska.94 There’s a difference between tuning to a true overtone series and dividing the octave into 55 steps. On the overtone series, just intonation, tempered tuning, and commas, read Hindemith. The Ottomans and the Persians did not write polyphonic music.
@@johnqpublic4662 Read Vincentino. Read Luzzaschi. Check out the archicembalo / clavicymbalum universale. Among equally divided temperaments, 31TET (basically extended 1/4 comma meantone taken to its logical conclusion; i.e. a system focused on diatonicism) is pretty uniquely adjusted to modulating to all keys enharmonically. 31TET allows you to really tune to overtone series, as you say.
4:38 This chord is generated by the same slightly sharp subminor third that's used to make Orwell scales, so it shows up a lot in them! One interesting thing about it is that every interval in it has a relatively simple JI interpretation: one subminor third is, of course, a 7/6, two of them make an 11/8, and three make an 8/5. A few other edos, such as 31 and 53, have their own takes on this chord (and the Orwell scale) with the same properties as in 22edo!
“… which shuffles some of the thirds around, yada yada yada, let’s play some chords!” Right answer, Dave! I love Theory too, but ultimately all that matters is making music!
Cool video! Would like to see different mappings for 22-EDO in the future though, such as Porcupine and Orwell mappings. Have you set up your Lumatone Mappings Library yet, where we can all share our creations?
The mapping library is still on deck and coming sooner rather than later. Sorry for the delay on this, it’s gonna be great to get it up for sure!
I’m historically a woodwind-and-strings dude, who hasn’t done a whole lot with keyboards. That is, until I got my Lumatone, which has turned my appreciation of keyboards around 180 degrees (or maybe ~195 degrees 🤪).
So, admittedly, since I’m simultaneously learning basic keyboard skills as well, I haven’t worked with 22TET, and in fact I’ve mostly just worked with 31TET so far.
I have a lot of respect and curiosity for how 22 turns a lot of our Meantone-oriented expectations all around sideways! Back in 1979, I refretted a pawnshop-special guitar to 22TET, but never got much chance to experiment with it. I still have it though!
Anyway, once I do experiment with 22, I’m not confident that I’ll be able to deal with the ways that it “shuffles some of the thirds around.” Quite a change it would seem, compared to guitar, but I’ll see when I get there!
Thank you for making a 22-EDO Chord Shapes video! I really like the sub major 7 chord at 3:54 as it sounds like a more in-tune version of the minor major 7 chord found in 12-EDO (probably because of the 7/6 subminor third). The improv at 5:08 using the G sub major 7 chord sounded very beautiful!
There is one little thing I noticed: at 3:28, this chord is written as vvE supermajor. For legibility purposes, I think it would have been better to write this chord as ^Eb supermajor or Fb supermajor (vvE = ^Eb = Fb in 22-EDO) as double up or down arrows become harder to read. Overall, amazing demonstration of what this tuning can offer!
Dope dude. Do you need to get special microtonal VSTs for this lumatone controller?
Is there a reason why certain seven chords were skipped? Particularly subminor minor 7, super major 7, and super super 7?
Seems like you really have to cramp your 4th finger for some of those chords, suggesting that another layout might be better. I went back to the equivalent videos for 19EDO and 17EDO and they don't seem to do this so much -- especially not 19EDO, where you do see some odd finger configurations, but it looks like you could instead use a replicate not lower on the keyboard to get a reasonably comfortable convex finger pattern (but looks like if you tried to do that in 22EDO, you might disarticulate your little finger).
Also would like to see how the next diaschismic tuning = 34EDO compares for hand position needed to get the same chords. Yes, I can look at a Lumatone mapping and get a decent preliminary idea, but still good to see what the fingers are actually doing. That said, I am going to guess that you can probably get decent finger positions by using the Tetracot layout, although some common intervals are still not going to be ideal. In 34EDO you don't get septimal and undecimal intervals that are as good, but you get REALLY GOOD 5-limit intervals -- the 5th is only +3.9 cents sharp, which is not bad (same as 17EDO, and compare to 22EDO which is way sharp = +7.1 cents, or to 31EDO or 19EDO which are way flat = -5.2 cents or -7.2 cents, respectively, although at least the latter falls almost right on top of 112/75).
The next diaschismic tuning after that = 46EDO is attractive for being good all the way up to the 11 limit, including giving you a good full set of blue notes (including near-just major and minor thirds if not as good as in 34EDO) and a fifth that is only +2.4 cents sharp, BUT all of the keyboard layouts I have seen for it are AWFUL, requiring you to be a hybrid between an octopus and a spider to reach common simple intervals, including playing a simple C major scale. My best guess is that maybe somebody could come up with some sort of rotated Amity layout or maybe extend the Porcupine-Tetracot keyboard layout continuum to get better ergonomics.
I am beginning to feel a need for a generalized diaschismic layout, along the lines of what is available for meantone (labeled Pythagorean), magic, miracle, Orwell, etc. . . .
One reason diaschismatic layouts don't translate so easily is because the whole tone is equally split into two semitones, which you need along an axis. Semi-tones (15:16=128:135=16:17=17:18) along the usual minor second axis and then probably 9:10 small major seconds along the usual major second axis might allow easy enough 5-limit harmony, but it will probably mess other things up.
I'm pretty happy playing in Bosanquet (in 22, 46) and multi-ring Bosanquet (in 34) although 58 is a bit of a pain in the ass for its verticality. I'd say try a few things out and compare, see what works for you.
Btw 34-equal sounds pretty great in my opinion, all the way through prime 17, ignoring 19 and then bringing back in 23. Almost everything is sharp, which leads to a cool bright kind of aesthetic. Doesn't look as good on paper as it actually sounds.
@@camtaylormusic I saw your video of 58EDO as 2 rings of 29EDO (in fact, listening to it again now), but did you try the different 58EDO layouts (4 of them) that they have on Xenharmonic Wiki? The diaschismic one for that (first one) looks decent at least for easy 5-limit playing.
If this polyphonic microtonal music sounded beautiful, this resource would be an astounding development. The problem is, it doesn’t. There’s no way around the problem that harmony and counterpoint can’t be done with more than 12 notes. It just doesn’t work.
You haven’t studied much Renaissance and Baroque tuning and harmonic theory, I suppose?
@@ian.mikyska.94 There’s a difference between tuning to a true overtone series and dividing the octave into 55 steps. On the overtone series, just intonation, tempered tuning, and commas, read Hindemith. The Ottomans and the Persians did not write polyphonic music.
@@johnqpublic4662 Read Vincentino. Read Luzzaschi. Check out the archicembalo / clavicymbalum universale. Among equally divided temperaments, 31TET (basically extended 1/4 comma meantone taken to its logical conclusion; i.e. a system focused on diatonicism) is pretty uniquely adjusted to modulating to all keys enharmonically. 31TET allows you to really tune to overtone series, as you say.