We all know that ECBP bottles improve with air as they open up. It seems like a bunch of this batch was bottled on 222 (Aug 10th) or so. And much of the batch was bottled 10/11 days later plus or minus around August 21st. Even though it is the exact same liquid, it makes sense that the later bottlings would be more "opened up" (sweeter, less restrained). Problem solved! More air in the blending tank. Makes sense to me :)
That would make sense if the liquid hadn't already spent 12 years interacting with air in the barrel. 10 extra days in a blending tank is not going to make a difference when it comes to oxygen interaction. These are clearly two different batches and while the collection of all the selected barrels is called C923 and was probably declared like that to the government, it's clear that they can't/don't blend them ALL together at the same time, resulting in a difference in flavor between bottling batches.
Who knows why it happened but no one can convince me there is no difference. I tried these side-by-side blind and it was easy to pick the A23 out as the better version. There could be some A22 and other codes that were not impacted which adds to the confusion. All I know is I've opened 5 different bottles of ECBP C923 so far. Three with A23 laser code which were amazing and two A22 versions which were good but notitably a step down. Letting the A22 bottles open up for a month or more now and will try again to see if air improves/matches fresh crack level of A23.
Heaven Hill produces my favorite products, but they and all the others know the game they're playing. Consumers have every right to scrutinize any discrepancies found. They created this culture with their f@ck around, allocated games, and inflated prices.
My own updated version of the controversy (and BTW I'm the guy that thought he had a 3rd version, A11, that was actually a B523): I was lucky enough to get several bottles of C923, unluckily (it seems) they were all A22. Now, I'm an ECBP man, have loved every iteration since A120. I've bought/tasted a LOT of whiskey, but ECBP invariably feels like "coming home" to me. When everybody started raving about C923, I bought every bottle I could get my hands on. But then I'd drink it while watching all the reviews, and I was like, "I don't get it!" It drank overly hot and tasted muted and one-dimensional. So when the laser code controversy dropped, it made total sense to me. (And BTW, I'm one of the ones that rattled Heaven Hill's cage about this!) But I've just opened my 5th bottle (still A22), and with every pour, I'm giving it a wholehearted two-syllable, "Daaa-aaamn!" Maybe it was the power of suggestion, after Mash and Drum and the Bourbon Junkies rolled their eyes about the controversy (after universally blinding a preference for A23). Or maybe, just maybe...there are slight variations across ALL the bottles of the batch, as I have suspected for many years. I have fairly regularly hated bottles that others loved, or loved bottles that others hated, or loved a bottle so much I bought more, only to hate it. "Get what you can, when you can, where you can, while you can," I always say, and after some initial disappointment, I'm getting all the enjoyment I can out of this one particular bottle. And I'll still never NOT buy every ECBP I can get!
Hi, Gen X here, been drinking HH since 15 years old : ) , still love HH I have two bottles of ECBP C923 no laser code, lots of sediment, and it does not taste the same as the sample I was provided. Will post a vid within a day or so. Heaven Hill, it aint hate just an observation and conversation
Of course there is a consistency issue if bottling occurs over an almost two week period. Unless it's tightly sealed, I would assume air, weather, etc., would be a factor
Just thinking about things, liquids from different barrels could all have different viscositys and overall molecular makeup. Some of the more viscous liquid could potentially separate from other liquids making the top and bottom of the tank different throughout the bottling process. Not even taking into account air and such but Im curious if this could affect different bottles from the same batching tank. Either way, fun conversations to think about
I posted this on Jason's comparison. My take is the variance comes from the amount of barrel char in the dump filter and the A23 was bottled just after cleaning the filter. It has less "barrel influence" and is sweeter, because it is not "filtered" threw the additional char caught in the filter. I knew it was all one batch, because there is no way to match the proof in multiple batches. There is no quality control issue, it is all quality whiskey, but there will always be variance in massive batches barreled over many days..
I’d take this investigative bourbon journalism thing and run with it, the community may need it, ha. It’s good whiskey regardless but in my opinion the issue is not confined to C923. I personally had two bottles of A122 that tasted like completely different bourbons, like not even close, and this was before the possibility of a “confirmation bias” related to this theory. There is something at play here. Not saying it’s a grand conspiracy or anything but it’s not nothing and it’s not new. And whether the community likes it or not I guarantee people will be comparing codes on this year’s batches.
I don't care what anyone says...as a whiskey consumer now paying over MSRP in retail stores in my area for bottles like ECBP, product info/transparency/consistency matters. I still haven't found an answer as to why my C923 bottle does not have a laser code on the back at all, but one problem at a time I guess. Appreciate you speaking out even if HH's response is generic, at least we have their attention.
Someone said - it might have been someone at Heaven Hill - that sometimes the bottles just miss the printing machine. With so many running through, not every single bottle gets printed.
Yes, was curious about that and wanted to contact Heaven Hill. Experienced the same thing with A123. None of the 5 bottles on the shelf had the date code. I was mostly concerned to make sure they were authentic, since they were there in a store in Sept 2024 & that batch was probably the best since B520 & until C923 dropped.
Well the verdict is in - Larceny C923 is the clear #1; and I’m not sure what kind of games Heaven Hills is playing, but there is a stark difference between EC C923 LC A23 and EC C923 LC A22. Shout out to Cameron from Drums & Drams for pointing this out. 1) Larceny C923 A+++ 2) EC C923 LC A23 A 3) EC C923 LC A22 A-
So I have 3 bottles and none of them have a date code....So I'm guessing mine were outsourced by HH to another distiller and who knows what is actually in the bottle. It's probably Green River..🤣 FYI....I am only kidding....but my C923 bottles actually don't have any date code on the back like all my previous releases have.
Normal Elijah Craig small batch has 200 barrels dumped into the mixing tank for each batch. In comparison to a similar sized distillery, Jack Daniels VIP tour states that it dumps 175 to 200 barrels a batch for Old# 7 and each barrel has roughly 240 bottles in it. (RUclips Tonights Poison-Jack Daniels VIP Distillery Tour minutes 34:35-35:10) 200 x 240= 48,000 bottles. Elijah Craig C923 is older, so the Angel's share reduces the amount of liquid. If we guess almost half of the liquid is gone, then there are around 24,000 bottles of E.C.C923. There is no problem for Heaven Hill to mix this amount. They have the largest toured distillery in the U.S. The questions are if the tank was mixed consistently? Has filtering issues? Or, any time differences being exposed to the air for the bottling? Even if these factors are relevant to any discrepancies people are tasting, Heaven Hill will never release this information. The only true way to solve this issue would be to do repeated TRUE scientific blind taste experiments and see if the results are reproduced by other groups. Whiskeytube is entertainment. People are talking and looking at each other when doing tastings. The Whiskeytubers would have to be separated from each other with A22 and A23 new bottles opened at the same time. Then the test would have to be repeated over and over on different days with the same level in the bottles. Not very entertaining for our modern short attention spans. Plus how many people have both bottles?
Cameron, interesting can of worms here. To me it's kind of irrelevant since I've been unable to get my hands on a single bottle of C923. But it does raise a similar issue with WT Rare Breed. RB is labeled as a cask strength bourbon to which no water has been added. Various sources have claimed over the years that there are different batches of 116.8 proof based on the laser code. But the proof has remained at 116.8 since at least 2017. To me, this doesn't add up. How can WT consistently dump new batches of barrel proof bourbon at exactly the same proof as the previous "batch". On the other hand, if it has been one batch since 2017, and given the amount of RB that they sell, that would have to be one hell of a big batching tank. Thoughts?
You don’t need to feel bad about offending Heaven Hill. I guarantee that you are one of their favorite people on the face of this planet right now. They couldn’t buy this kind of PR if they tried!
I wasn't previously a subscriber, but I am now! I've appreciated how you've navigated this unique "situation" and maintained both your messaging and integrity throughout. It doesn't hurt that you're also a percussionist.😉 I'm a fan now and look forward to seeing your channel continue to grow!
Producers/distillers want to set the differentiation points for their own products ... you're deviating from the list that they want you to select from.
I would be interested to see, if you had a hydrometer, the proofs of the A222 vs A223 to see how good their quality control is. I've seen many reviews and almost everyone says the A222 is more ethanol forward or alcohol forward. Wonder if there is also a proof difference besides flavor difference. I know the bottle says 133 proof and it has been approved by the TTB but interested in what the actual proof would be. Just curious....
The reviews I've seen have unanimously picked the A23 batches over the A22, even in larger groups and always blind. It seems indisputable that there is a difference in bottles. I've had several pours of the A22 batch and well before this theory came out and I thought it was good, but not a great batch. Certainly solid, but has an astringency that can't be overlooked.
Jason….have both. The second it was released I hunted down 5 bottles over the next 2 months. They are both excellent and one of the best whiskeys I have had in years! Yes, you can taste a slight difference. Blinded ….3 of us picked them by code. I am still hunting for more as this is just a super batch…period!
Gotta love the placebo effect. Personally, I did not find any different from both lazer codes. A lot of folks in the bourbon community like to exaggerate and FAIL to get information from the source like you did.
I work in the food industry and use very similar lot coding. It doesn't matter how great your process is there are so many variables that getting true 100% consistency across every single unit of product is impossible. Quality control means it fits in a range of parameters. Not every unit of product is going to hit the exact same parameters. Bottling 10 days apart of course there is going to a change in some variable (temperature, humidity, the operator running the line, did the crew cleaning that day leave water in the lines the previous crew didn't?). The whiskey was still within their specs so there is no quality issue. Doesn't mean there won't be a slight difference.
Lol, you keep saying the Junkies proved your point, but Dan put code 23 1st and 3rd with 22 being 2nd? How does that prove your weird theory 😂, 23 got last place.
For what it’s worth. I really don’t think that HH believes there is a difference. I picked up my bottle at KBF, and I really don’t think they would knowingly bring substandard product to the Bourbon Fest when they’re trying to put their best foot forward to the Bourbon community. I’m betting that there are a lot of questions inside HH about why the differences exist.
If a run goes on for that many days the lines probably have to be cleaned for food n drug regulations. I worked in a food production line for 10 yrs and if a product is bottled or packaged at the beginning of the run after the cleaning process, I know the taste can be diff. I don’t know if this is the same for bottling spirits but just my 2 cents
Were all these blinds done with bottles that were either all just opened (i.e. first pours from each bottle for each laser code)? If not, there is also oxidation changes for each bottle. Maybe one oxidizes better. Maybe one is better before oxidation (new bottle).
I have yet to see anyone compare a C923 with a missing laser code. I have 1 bottle with an A22 code and 1 with no code. I’ve looked at it with a magnifying glass and flashlight and there’s no code. I’ve heard a few other people have C923’s without codes as well so I know I’m not the only one.
i have 4 bottles with NO lazer code at all on them. Anyone have any information regarding those types of bottles and if anyone has noticed any differences in ones with no lazer codes?
As with any manufactured product, there is an acceptable range or tolerance for what gets released to market; with distilled spirits there's usually a qualitative element to this. So it's not surprising how HH responded, simply acknowledging that the C923 batch is within spec. Perhaps someone with commercial distilling experience can elaborate on how batching actually takes place, and best practices to ensure consistency. One would assume they are taking measures to reduce oxygen throughout the process (anaerobic environment in blending tank?), and homogenize the product across blending and bottling. Either way, the dialogue here won't affect their bottom line, but I think it's important that large producers continue to be held to a high quality standard, as consumers privy to this type of "issue" will and should vote with their wallets.
Thanks Cam for posting reply from HH. And thanks to HH for giving you a reply, though they didn’t give any info about anything. Just my guess, I think it’s impossible for any distiller to make a single batch taste the exact same from bottle to bottle, unless they have a single gigantic super sized blending tank that can fit all the liquid from the thousands of barrels they use in the batch in one go. Instead, they gotta split their batch across multiple smaller blending tanks, or just a smaller single tank, which means not every tank fill-up will have the exact same % liquid from each barrel, hence flavor differences between their different timed blending tank fill-ups. I think people will discover flavor differences between other big single-batched products from other distilleries too for this same reason.
I have never tried any of them, my guess is there has probably been slight variations from bottle run on every batch, just no one has really noticed…. Now that someone has noticed every one is comparing them to see for them selves and now that they already have that suggestion in the brain they are for sure going to find a difference. We all know how powerful suggestion is when it comes to identifying tastes and smells in whiskey.
You laughed about HH removing the laser codes but it makes me wonder. I have 3 bottles. An A22, an A23, and the other doesn't have a laser code. I bought all 3 from NC ABC stores not online. It's certainly odd.
I know i mentioned on one of the last posts concerning this topic that i passed up my first sighting of this bottle simply due to the possibility that it could be underwhelming compared to the "A23" coded bottle. but i eventually went back and bought it anyway. Now, upon opening, i wasn't impressed any more than i have been on any other ECBP. But, after a few days of "breathing" , i found the flavors I'd expect to be in a "whiskey of the year" bottle. So, idk if there's truly a difference since i dont have the A23 bottle, but i will say that for anyone thats concerned about buying the A22 coded bottle, it's worth picking up. And im not a "rookie" by any means. Whiskey and cigars are pretty much my life when it comes to recreational relaxation. 😂 So, if you can only find A22 but you're scared to buy it, dont be. It's delicious. I will be blinding them both very soon, though, when my sample comes in, so maybe I'll give my 2 cents (for what its worth) when that happens.
I have the code that many are saying is better. I couldn't imagine it being worse in terms of not living up to the hype. Was rather unimpressed after all the talk about it.
I also tasted a difference on the neck pour, and I did it double blind. I’m wondering if the oxygen that was let in after the first bottling of A22 helped A23 open up more between the 10 days. After the A22 opens up maybe it was taste just as good.
I've had some Elijah Craig Single Barrel not too long ago that tasted like soil. It was disheartening. My last bottle was tasty though. EC is one of my favs.
Interesting and good to know. But, I cannot get my hands on 1 bottle of this despite trying - so, I definitely can't compare tastings between 2 bottles to even offer a comment along those lines. Thanks for the video!
The question is: has this always been an unknown issue with all of their batches since they started doing their tri-annual releases? I wonder if Larceny BP has the same issue
There are so many possible variances two bottles of a same batch can taste slightly different. Time it was opened, temperatures it was subject to during transportation, uv light exposure on shelves, etc.
If a taste descrepancy exists between bottles on different dates, it may not be fair to call this a "consistency issue." Its entirely possible such variation is normal and exists through most releases this large. This is a huge batch. I find it unlikely that Heaven Hill is doing something "wrong" that results in increased variation.
Sweet, so HH a) confirmed what those of us that have been paying attention already knew, and b) gave us the least insightful, legal boilerplate response to some pretty significant "product inconsistency" accusations raised against them. Clearly their aim is to sweep this under the rug.
I think the bummer of this whole situation is that the inconsistency, assuming there is any, seems like it would be very minor. I wonder if this has gotten blown a bit out of proportion and has created even more FOMO around a bottle that already had plenty to begin with. I think people now feel like, even if they found a C923, they didn't get "the good laser code". For a lot of people, searching for allocated bottles can be frustrating enough as it is.
Nope, I sampled a buddies bottle, decided to buy on that tasting, the bottles I bought are different in flavor and lots of sediment. Please refrain from discounting my almost $200 (includes tax) investment
@@journeymanedc Are you special needs? Validate? I was just telling YOU that your opinion based on YOUR incorrect supposition was 100% wrong. IE if you dont know dont tell those of us who do that we somehow dont know what we are talking about.
What’s the big deal, you can open any two bottles of any specific brand and detect a difference in taste and prefer one over the other…it’s bourbon people; drink, be merry and move on!
I know literally 0 about bottling whiskey but you’d have a hard time convincing me that Heaven Hill has 1 tank that can fit 14 + days worth of C923 in one tank. Can someone do the math with what we think the volume released was? It would literally be the biggest tank known to man to have all of the liquid together in one big batch.
Normal Elijah Craig small batch has 200 barrels dumped into the mixing tank for each batch. In comparison to a similar sized distillery, Jack Daniels VIP tour states that it dumps 175 to 200 barrels a batch for Old# 7 and each barrel has roughly 240 bottles in it. (RUclips Tonights Poison-Jack Daniels VIP Distillery Tour minutes 34:35-35:10) 200 x 240= 48,000 bottles. Elijah Craig C923 is older, so the Angel's share reduces the amount of liquid. If we guess almost half of the liquid is gone, then there are around 24,000 bottles of E.C.C923. There is no problem for Heaven Hill to mix this amount. They have the largest toured distillery in the U.S. The questions are if the tank was mixed consistently? Has filtering issues? Or, any time differences being exposed to the air for the bottling? Even if these factors are relevant to any discrepancies people are tasting, Heaven Hill will never release this information. The only true way to solve this issue would be to do repeated TRUE scientific blind taste experiments and see if the results are reproduced by other groups. Whiskeytube is entertainment. People are talking and looking at each other when doing tastings. The Whiskeytubers would have to be separated from each other with A22 and A23 new bottles opened at the same time. Then the test would have to be repeated over and over on different days with the same level in the bottles. Not very entertaining for our modern short attention spans. Plus how many people have both bottles?
@SRVandDtrouble my bottles don't have the "A......." codes on them at all so I don't know where they fall in this A22/A23 debate, I just know the C923 I have is great!
Interesting this video popped up. I've been enjoying C923, it's spicy and vibrant, like cinnamon. A friend mentioned hearing something about laser codes so I grabbed the back ups. The two backups are A22. My open bottle, which I got first is A23. Didn't even need to compare side by side, which we did end up doing. First taste of A22 was wood. It was not vibrant and spicy, cinnamon like. Going side by side, it was affirmed. It's not a mind thing. The flavor differences are real. With A22 being woody compared to A23, I suspect the A22 contained older barrels. Did they empty all the casks into a single giant vat before bottling? If not, there will be variances.
It's as if you don't read to understand. I worked in testing and saw how the developer would say the same overall thing, but once I dug in, it was not as they said. Only thing HH stated is that C923 is one batch. Now stop being holier than thou and learn to understand instead of popping off like every other narcissist. @@sirjcc
We all know that ECBP bottles improve with air as they open up. It seems like a bunch of this batch was bottled on 222 (Aug 10th) or so. And much of the batch was bottled 10/11 days later plus or minus around August 21st. Even though it is the exact same liquid, it makes sense that the later bottlings would be more "opened up" (sweeter, less restrained). Problem solved! More air in the blending tank. Makes sense to me :)
So the A22 should open up after being opened for a month? 🙂
That would make sense if the liquid hadn't already spent 12 years interacting with air in the barrel. 10 extra days in a blending tank is not going to make a difference when it comes to oxygen interaction. These are clearly two different batches and while the collection of all the selected barrels is called C923 and was probably declared like that to the government, it's clear that they can't/don't blend them ALL together at the same time, resulting in a difference in flavor between bottling batches.
“Opening up” is a myth
@@chetbellphoto no it isn't
Opening up is absolutely not a myth, but also the bottling tanks at HH are sealed, so…
Who knows why it happened but no one can convince me there is no difference. I tried these side-by-side blind and it was easy to pick the A23 out as the better version. There could be some A22 and other codes that were not impacted which adds to the confusion. All I know is I've opened 5 different bottles of ECBP C923 so far. Three with A23 laser code which were amazing and two A22 versions which were good but notitably a step down. Letting the A22 bottles open up for a month or more now and will try again to see if air improves/matches fresh crack level of A23.
It’s all good, next? If they just put out another hitter with A124 this vanishes. Cheers Matt Madness champion of champions
Go look at the A124 stats on their site.. not saying we can judge a book by its cover, but not a great sign
Heaven Hill produces my favorite products, but they and all the others know the game they're playing. Consumers have every right to scrutinize any discrepancies found. They created this culture with their f@ck around, allocated games, and inflated prices.
My own updated version of the controversy (and BTW I'm the guy that thought he had a 3rd version, A11, that was actually a B523):
I was lucky enough to get several bottles of C923, unluckily (it seems) they were all A22.
Now, I'm an ECBP man, have loved every iteration since A120. I've bought/tasted a LOT of whiskey, but ECBP invariably feels like "coming home" to me.
When everybody started raving about C923, I bought every bottle I could get my hands on. But then I'd drink it while watching all the reviews, and I was like, "I don't get it!" It drank overly hot and tasted muted and one-dimensional. So when the laser code controversy dropped, it made total sense to me. (And BTW, I'm one of the ones that rattled Heaven Hill's cage about this!)
But I've just opened my 5th bottle (still A22), and with every pour, I'm giving it a wholehearted two-syllable, "Daaa-aaamn!"
Maybe it was the power of suggestion, after Mash and Drum and the Bourbon Junkies rolled their eyes about the controversy (after universally blinding a preference for A23).
Or maybe, just maybe...there are slight variations across ALL the bottles of the batch, as I have suspected for many years. I have fairly regularly hated bottles that others loved, or loved bottles that others hated, or loved a bottle so much I bought more, only to hate it.
"Get what you can, when you can, where you can, while you can," I always say, and after some initial disappointment, I'm getting all the enjoyment I can out of this one particular bottle. And I'll still never NOT buy every ECBP I can get!
Hi, Gen X here, been drinking HH since 15 years old : ) , still love HH I have two bottles of ECBP C923 no laser code, lots of sediment, and it does not taste the same as the sample I was provided. Will post a vid within a day or so.
Heaven Hill, it aint hate just an observation and conversation
What they accomplished is creating even more reason for us Bourbon Nerds to Nerd out EVEN harder!
Of course there is a consistency issue if bottling occurs over an almost two week period. Unless it's tightly sealed, I would assume air, weather, etc., would be a factor
I've bought 15 bottles of the C923. The taste has been the same across them all and the laser codes range from A223 and A233
Can I buy one off you?😉
@@Kyle987x If you are in CO I'll say yes
Ahh too bad I'm in CA! I'd definitely take you up on that. Been having a hard time finding any out here.
Is there any dates in between or just those 2 dates?
May the laser codes be with you.
And also with you 😂
🤣@@DrumsAndDrams
Just thinking about things, liquids from different barrels could all have different viscositys and overall molecular makeup. Some of the more viscous liquid could potentially separate from other liquids making the top and bottom of the tank different throughout the bottling process. Not even taking into account air and such but Im curious if this could affect different bottles from the same batching tank. Either way, fun conversations to think about
I was thinking this too.
Bourbon Junkies tasted differences. They didn't say A22 was bad, just said it tasted different than A23
Sean said A23 is "marginally better."
Laser code it all you want to. C923 still isn’t that great.
I posted this on Jason's comparison. My take is the variance comes from the amount of barrel char in the dump filter and the A23 was bottled just after cleaning the filter. It has less "barrel influence" and is sweeter, because it is not "filtered" threw the additional char caught in the filter. I knew it was all one batch, because there is no way to match the proof in multiple batches. There is no quality control issue, it is all quality whiskey, but there will always be variance in massive batches barreled over many days..
I’d take this investigative bourbon journalism thing and run with it, the community may need it, ha.
It’s good whiskey regardless but in my opinion the issue is not confined to C923. I personally had two bottles of A122 that tasted like completely different bourbons, like not even close, and this was before the possibility of a “confirmation bias” related to this theory. There is something at play here. Not saying it’s a grand conspiracy or anything but it’s not nothing and it’s not new. And whether the community likes it or not I guarantee people will be comparing codes on this year’s batches.
I call BS....A23 came out BEFORE A22....so, next!
I don't care what anyone says...as a whiskey consumer now paying over MSRP in retail stores in my area for bottles like ECBP, product info/transparency/consistency matters. I still haven't found an answer as to why my C923 bottle does not have a laser code on the back at all, but one problem at a time I guess. Appreciate you speaking out even if HH's response is generic, at least we have their attention.
Someone said - it might have been someone at Heaven Hill - that sometimes the bottles just miss the printing machine. With so many running through, not every single bottle gets printed.
Yes, was curious about that and wanted to contact Heaven Hill. Experienced the same thing with A123. None of the 5 bottles on the shelf had the date code. I was mostly concerned to make sure they were authentic, since they were there in a store in Sept 2024 & that batch was probably the best since B520 & until C923 dropped.
Oh, sometimes they are on the front. But also some have none.
Well the verdict is in - Larceny C923 is the clear #1; and I’m not sure what kind of games Heaven Hills is playing, but there is a stark difference between EC C923 LC A23 and EC C923 LC A22. Shout out to Cameron from Drums & Drams for pointing this out.
1) Larceny C923 A+++
2) EC C923 LC A23 A
3) EC C923 LC A22 A-
So I have 3 bottles and none of them have a date code....So I'm guessing mine were outsourced by HH to another distiller and who knows what is actually in the bottle. It's probably Green River..🤣 FYI....I am only kidding....but my C923 bottles actually don't have any date code on the back like all my previous releases have.
Normal Elijah Craig small batch has 200 barrels dumped into the mixing tank for each batch. In comparison to a similar sized distillery, Jack Daniels VIP tour states that it dumps 175 to 200 barrels a batch for Old# 7 and each barrel has roughly 240 bottles in it. (RUclips Tonights Poison-Jack Daniels VIP Distillery Tour minutes 34:35-35:10) 200 x 240= 48,000 bottles. Elijah Craig C923 is older, so the Angel's share reduces the amount of liquid. If we guess almost half of the liquid is gone, then there are around 24,000 bottles of E.C.C923. There is no problem for Heaven Hill to mix this amount. They have the largest toured distillery in the U.S. The questions are if the tank was mixed consistently? Has filtering issues? Or, any time differences being exposed to the air for the bottling? Even if these factors are relevant to any discrepancies people are tasting, Heaven Hill will never release this information. The only true way to solve this issue would be to do repeated TRUE scientific blind taste experiments and see if the results are reproduced by other groups. Whiskeytube is entertainment. People are talking and looking at each other when doing tastings. The Whiskeytubers would have to be separated from each other with A22 and A23 new bottles opened at the same time. Then the test would have to be repeated over and over on different days with the same level in the bottles. Not very entertaining for our modern short attention spans. Plus how many people have both bottles?
Cameron, interesting can of worms here. To me it's kind of irrelevant since I've been unable to get my hands on a single bottle of C923. But it does raise a similar issue with WT Rare Breed. RB is labeled as a cask strength bourbon to which no water has been added. Various sources have claimed over the years that there are different batches of 116.8 proof based on the laser code. But the proof has remained at 116.8 since at least 2017. To me, this doesn't add up. How can WT consistently dump new batches of barrel proof bourbon at exactly the same proof as the previous "batch". On the other hand, if it has been one batch since 2017, and given the amount of RB that they sell, that would have to be one hell of a big batching tank. Thoughts?
I'll be looking to offload my 4 extra bottles of C923 A22. The one i opened wasn't close to "whisky of the year"...
You don’t need to feel bad about offending Heaven Hill. I guarantee that you are one of their favorite people on the face of this planet right now. They couldn’t buy this kind of PR if they tried!
I wasn't previously a subscriber, but I am now! I've appreciated how you've navigated this unique "situation" and maintained both your messaging and integrity throughout. It doesn't hurt that you're also a percussionist.😉 I'm a fan now and look forward to seeing your channel continue to grow!
Interesting that they reached out and then weren’t very transparent with your follow-up. They could have been better with this aspect.
Producers/distillers want to set the differentiation points for their own products ... you're deviating from the list that they want you to select from.
I would be interested to see, if you had a hydrometer, the proofs of the A222 vs A223 to see how good their quality control is. I've seen many reviews and almost everyone says the A222 is more ethanol forward or alcohol forward. Wonder if there is also a proof difference besides flavor difference. I know the bottle says 133 proof and it has been approved by the TTB but interested in what the actual proof would be. Just curious....
I will bet if you blind with all the same juice ,people will still find a difference if you tell them its different juice. Its just human nature
The reviews I've seen have unanimously picked the A23 batches over the A22, even in larger groups and always blind. It seems indisputable that there is a difference in bottles. I've had several pours of the A22 batch and well before this theory came out and I thought it was good, but not a great batch. Certainly solid, but has an astringency that can't be overlooked.
“Warp the market”…? It’s not like you’re going to find one of these on shelves still..
Is that an old screwtop mckenna? Cool that they reached out. Ecbps famously need time to open up so thats probably the thing., at least for my guess.
Jason….have both. The second it was released I hunted down 5 bottles over the next 2 months. They are both excellent and one of the best whiskeys I have had in years! Yes, you can taste a slight difference. Blinded ….3 of us picked them by code. I am still hunting for more as this is just a super batch…period!
I have a C923 but can’t locate the laser code. Where would I find it??
So in summary, it’s 100% the same juice. Can we all move on now?
Your never going to get big corporate to admit to anything
Gotta love the placebo effect. Personally, I did not find any different from both lazer codes. A lot of folks in the bourbon community like to exaggerate and FAIL to get information from the source like you did.
my laser code is 0000000.
still haven't seen it in NY.
Follow the laser codes! #microbatching
Batchspiracy
Excuse me, what I meant to say was microbatchspiracy 😂
@@DrumsAndDrams 🤣
How many bottles do each batch produce
I just wish i could find even 1 of them by me😑
So you are saying that A21 is the best one 😅
Surprised anyone can get more than one
I prefer A123
I work in the food industry and use very similar lot coding. It doesn't matter how great your process is there are so many variables that getting true 100% consistency across every single unit of product is impossible. Quality control means it fits in a range of parameters. Not every unit of product is going to hit the exact same parameters. Bottling 10 days apart of course there is going to a change in some variable (temperature, humidity, the operator running the line, did the crew cleaning that day leave water in the lines the previous crew didn't?). The whiskey was still within their specs so there is no quality issue. Doesn't mean there won't be a slight difference.
Lol, you keep saying the Junkies proved your point, but Dan put code 23 1st and 3rd with 22 being 2nd? How does that prove your weird theory 😂, 23 got last place.
For what it’s worth. I really don’t think that HH believes there is a difference. I picked up my bottle at KBF, and I really don’t think they would knowingly bring substandard product to the Bourbon Fest when they’re trying to put their best foot forward to the Bourbon community. I’m betting that there are a lot of questions inside HH about why the differences exist.
If a run goes on for that many days the lines probably have to be cleaned for food n drug regulations. I worked in a food production line for 10 yrs and if a product is bottled or packaged at the beginning of the run after the cleaning process, I know the taste can be diff. I don’t know if this is the same for bottling spirits but just my 2 cents
Were all these blinds done with bottles that were either all just opened (i.e. first pours from each bottle for each laser code)? If not, there is also oxidation changes for each bottle. Maybe one oxidizes better. Maybe one is better before oxidation (new bottle).
I have yet to see anyone compare a C923 with a missing laser code. I have 1 bottle with an A22 code and 1 with no code. I’ve looked at it with a magnifying glass and flashlight and there’s no code. I’ve heard a few other people have C923’s without codes as well so I know I’m not the only one.
i have 4 bottles with NO lazer code at all on them. Anyone have any information regarding those types of bottles and if anyone has noticed any differences in ones with no lazer codes?
Your last name is Leach?! Hell now I have to follow/subscribe. One Leach to another, cheers!
As with any manufactured product, there is an acceptable range or tolerance for what gets released to market; with distilled spirits there's usually a qualitative element to this. So it's not surprising how HH responded, simply acknowledging that the C923 batch is within spec.
Perhaps someone with commercial distilling experience can elaborate on how batching actually takes place, and best practices to ensure consistency. One would assume they are taking measures to reduce oxygen throughout the process (anaerobic environment in blending tank?), and homogenize the product across blending and bottling. Either way, the dialogue here won't affect their bottom line, but I think it's important that large producers continue to be held to a high quality standard, as consumers privy to this type of "issue" will and should vote with their wallets.
Thanks Cam for posting reply from HH. And thanks to HH for giving you a reply, though they didn’t give any info about anything.
Just my guess, I think it’s impossible for any distiller to make a single batch taste the exact same from bottle to bottle, unless they have a single gigantic super sized blending tank that can fit all the liquid from the thousands of barrels they use in the batch in one go. Instead, they gotta split their batch across multiple smaller blending tanks, or just a smaller single tank, which means not every tank fill-up will have the exact same % liquid from each barrel, hence flavor differences between their different timed blending tank fill-ups.
I think people will discover flavor differences between other big single-batched products from other distilleries too for this same reason.
I have never tried any of them, my guess is there has probably been slight variations from bottle run on every batch, just no one has really noticed…. Now that someone has noticed every one is comparing them to see for them selves and now that they already have that suggestion in the brain they are for sure going to find a difference. We all know how powerful suggestion is when it comes to identifying tastes and smells in whiskey.
I have 2 bottles of C923. 1 bottle has a lazier code A223... my other bottle has no laser code at all... Go figure
If anyone is dissatisfied with their A223 let me know. I'll buy all your backups at MSRP.
You laughed about HH removing the laser codes but it makes me wonder. I have 3 bottles. An A22, an A23, and the other doesn't have a laser code. I bought all 3 from NC ABC stores not online. It's certainly odd.
I know i mentioned on one of the last posts concerning this topic that i passed up my first sighting of this bottle simply due to the possibility that it could be underwhelming compared to the "A23" coded bottle. but i eventually went back and bought it anyway. Now, upon opening, i wasn't impressed any more than i have been on any other ECBP. But, after a few days of "breathing" , i found the flavors I'd expect to be in a "whiskey of the year" bottle. So, idk if there's truly a difference since i dont have the A23 bottle, but i will say that for anyone thats concerned about buying the A22 coded bottle, it's worth picking up. And im not a "rookie" by any means. Whiskey and cigars are pretty much my life when it comes to recreational relaxation. 😂 So, if you can only find A22 but you're scared to buy it, dont be. It's delicious. I will be blinding them both very soon, though, when my sample comes in, so maybe I'll give my 2 cents (for what its worth) when that happens.
Saw a comment today about this being the last 13 plus year old for the barrel proof releases, at least for awhile. Issue with inventory.
I have the code that many are saying is better. I couldn't imagine it being worse in terms of not living up to the hype. Was rather unimpressed after all the talk about it.
I can tell you B523 is hot at first, and now 2/3 through is absolutely amazing.
Earned a sub with the transparency my man. Well done. Squash the bull$hit!!!
I also tasted a difference on the neck pour, and I did it double blind. I’m wondering if the oxygen that was let in after the first bottling of A22 helped A23 open up more between the 10 days. After the A22 opens up maybe it was taste just as good.
Cam, the C923 controversy is going to carry you to RUclips stardom never before seen or even imagined by others 😂
If anyone doesn't like their A22 code, I'll buy it from you. :)
I've had some Elijah Craig Single Barrel not too long ago that tasted like soil. It was disheartening. My last bottle was tasty though. EC is one of my favs.
Interesting and good to know. But, I cannot get my hands on 1 bottle of this despite trying - so, I definitely can't compare tastings between 2 bottles to even offer a comment along those lines. Thanks for the video!
The question is: has this always been an unknown issue with all of their batches since they started doing their tri-annual releases? I wonder if Larceny BP has the same issue
Now I GOTTA find an A233 - as it was bottled on my birthday!!!
There are so many possible variances two bottles of a same batch can taste slightly different. Time it was opened, temperatures it was subject to during transportation, uv light exposure on shelves, etc.
There are no consistency issues (HH rep waves hand over Cam). ;)
Great stuff Cam. Now people are going to search for the code that was "Bottled Last" 😂😂😂
“Yeah, everything could be faulty” 😂😂😂
I sent them an email back in November and never heard back. Secretary at Heaven Hill be like: **delete**
😂
I am just wondering if ten days worth of additional air in the blending tank could have opened it up a little 😎🥃
good quick video. thanks for sharing. cheers
YOU GOTTA LISTEN TO THE CHAMP!
😂😂😂
This was a great and interesting topic hopefully bring back the suit and the news soon lol🥃
I'm still trying to figure out how i ended up with bottles that have no laser code!
Good for you. Sad for them. Clarity when nothing to hide. Shame on them.
Review Arran 10 scotch whiskey
Thanks for update. No need for apologies.
Just watched the replay. Great stuff Cam. Cheers brother.
You are now officially a Big Shot. You earned it.
If a taste descrepancy exists between bottles on different dates, it may not be fair to call this a "consistency issue." Its entirely possible such variation is normal and exists through most releases this large. This is a huge batch. I find it unlikely that Heaven Hill is doing something "wrong" that results in increased variation.
If a23 is better then it must be insanely good...my a22 is great lol...cheers
I have both and honestly I think a22 is better.
I CANT EVEN SEE A LASER CODE ON MINE
Sweet, so HH a) confirmed what those of us that have been paying attention already knew, and b) gave us the least insightful, legal boilerplate response to some pretty significant "product inconsistency" accusations raised against them. Clearly their aim is to sweep this under the rug.
Jj Reddick
...so no D923?
This entire thing was dumb from the start and way overblown. It was super obvious it was 1 big batch, that's the entire point of a A/B/C release.
I hope some day soon we will have the C batch in Florida so we can join the discussion and intrigue
It hit some parts of Florida last week.
@@Midfielder097 Sweet!!
Was all over Tampa last 2 weeks. I think it's gone now though
My local shop owner keeps saying "soon" since October 😂
I think the bummer of this whole situation is that the inconsistency, assuming there is any, seems like it would be very minor. I wonder if this has gotten blown a bit out of proportion and has created even more FOMO around a bottle that already had plenty to begin with. I think people now feel like, even if they found a C923, they didn't get "the good laser code". For a lot of people, searching for allocated bottles can be frustrating enough as it is.
Nope, I sampled a buddies bottle, decided to buy on that tasting, the bottles I bought are different in flavor and lots of sediment. Please refrain from discounting my almost $200 (includes tax) investment
@@WhiskeyYuck spending 200 on ECBP is your prerogative. You don't need a stranger on the Internet to validate that purchase with their opinion.
@@journeymanedc Are you special needs? Validate? I was just telling YOU that your opinion based on YOUR incorrect supposition was 100% wrong. IE if you dont know dont tell those of us who do that we somehow dont know what we are talking about.
What’s the big deal, you can open any two bottles of any specific brand and detect a difference in taste and prefer one over the other…it’s bourbon people; drink, be merry and move on!
What you said 🙄
Keep up the good work brother!!! If it don’t taste the same it’s not. Cheers to those that like it, and cheers to those that don’t.
Amen!! Thanks man, cheers 🥃
So much drama. Jesus, just drink the juice and enjoy it and everyone chill.
Great video. Love your channel. You deserve tenfold the viewership you have. Cheers. 🥃
I know literally 0 about bottling whiskey but you’d have a hard time convincing me that Heaven Hill has 1 tank that can fit 14 + days worth of C923 in one tank. Can someone do the math with what we think the volume released was? It would literally be the biggest tank known to man to have all of the liquid together in one big batch.
Have you been to a large distillery they have tanks that are multistory tall and hold 10s of thousands of gallons and multiple of those...
Normal Elijah Craig small batch has 200 barrels dumped into the mixing tank for each batch. In comparison to a similar sized distillery, Jack Daniels VIP tour states that it dumps 175 to 200 barrels a batch for Old# 7 and each barrel has roughly 240 bottles in it. (RUclips Tonights Poison-Jack Daniels VIP Distillery Tour minutes 34:35-35:10) 200 x 240= 48,000 bottles. Elijah Craig C923 is older, so the Angel's share reduces the amount of liquid. If we guess almost half of the liquid is gone, then there are around 24,000 bottles of E.C.C923. There is no problem for Heaven Hill to mix this amount. They have the largest toured distillery in the U.S. The questions are if the tank was mixed consistently? Has filtering issues? Or, any time differences being exposed to the air for the bottling? Even if these factors are relevant to any discrepancies people are tasting, Heaven Hill will never release this information. The only true way to solve this issue would be to do repeated TRUE scientific blind taste experiments and see if the results are reproduced by other groups. Whiskeytube is entertainment. People are talking and looking at each other when doing tastings. The Whiskeytubers would have to be separated from each other with A22 and A23 new bottles opened at the same time. Then the test would have to be repeated over and over on different days with the same level in the bottles. Not very entertaining for our modern short attention spans. Plus how many people have both bottles?
I think we can all agree, Stagg 22A > ECBP C923 (any laser code).
I have both bottles and while both good, I don't think the Stagg is better than my bottle of C923.
@@jhutch955 Well which code you do have then???
@SRVandDtrouble my bottles don't have the "A......." codes on them at all so I don't know where they fall in this A22/A23 debate, I just know the C923 I have is great!
Interesting this video popped up. I've been enjoying C923, it's spicy and vibrant, like cinnamon. A friend mentioned hearing something about laser codes so I grabbed the back ups. The two backups are A22. My open bottle, which I got first is A23. Didn't even need to compare side by side, which we did end up doing. First taste of A22 was wood. It was not vibrant and spicy, cinnamon like. Going side by side, it was affirmed. It's not a mind thing. The flavor differences are real. With A22 being woody compared to A23, I suspect the A22 contained older barrels. Did they empty all the casks into a single giant vat before bottling? If not, there will be variances.
Did you watch the video at all? HH confirmed it's all 1 big batch with the exact same juice in the 22 and 23 bottles
It's as if you don't read to understand. I worked in testing and saw how the developer would say the same overall thing, but once I dug in, it was not as they said. Only thing HH stated is that C923 is one batch. Now stop being holier than thou and learn to understand instead of popping off like every other narcissist. @@sirjcc
@@hoobeydoobey1267 shut up boomer