This man does not get all the recognition he deserves. He speaks the absolute truth and selflessly shares his knowledge. Allow me to elaborate. During a family holiday in Europe, across the world from where I live, and without a bike, I visited a fitting shop that uses a Jig. Did the fit, felt good, bought the recommended bike and I tried for 9 months. Riding with aches and pains, I really tried to believe in the process and kept going. I don’t know if it was my lack of skill setting up my bike or the fit itself. But it did not work for me and I gave up. Neck and shoulder pain, numb hands, numb genitals. A total mess. I started watching Neils videos, paying attention to his detailed explanations and recommendations. Based on his videos and nothing else, I changed the reach, bar drop, setback and bar width. Today I am very happy to say that I can ride painless. Finally I can do what I love. Riding my bike. Comfortable. I cannot even imagine how my position would feel if I came, with my bike ,and got a fit by Neil. Hopefully one day I will.
I never had a bike fit but Neil's videos fixed my knee issues! I kept following all of the usual bike fitting tips and kept getting right knee pain after I finished a ride. It never hurt during a ride. After watching a bunch of Neil's videos I lowered my saddle height by 15mm and moved my saddle back by 10mm. No more knee pain! Added bonus being no more saddle sores or numb genitals too.
your saddle placement matters, your bar position matters, but beyond that, your body can't discern whether you're sitting on a bike or a jig that replicates a bike. As Neil points out roughly 2:00 in, the problem exists if you don't transfer the measurements correctly. This isn't really any different than transferring your position to a new bike.
I've watch most of his video regarding cleat position, saddle height and saddle set back, I clearly see the difference I've made by watching all of his free content video in youtube, its really worth a subscribe to this guy
Biker fitters think that because they have all this data and gear to measure things they can do a good job. But they often have little idea of what to do with it all.
Couldn’t recommend Neill highly enough. Saw him for both my road and TT bike and by far the best bike fits I’ve ever had. Most comfortable I’ve been since!
Had my first bike fit last weekend and it was quite the experience. Took a little over 4 hours and confirmed some theories I had developed after watching a lot of Neil's videos, like a leg length discrepancy and needing some wedging in my shoes, but also turned up a fair few other issues I don't think I would've ever found on my own. In a way I found my fitter through Neil. He has previously spoken about his training with Steve Hogg and how it influenced his methods, so I went to Steve's site to find out more and found a (short) list of fitters Steve has trained and 'approved'. There was only one "local" to me, so I reached out to them and also started following them on social media to get an idea of how they work. It all matched up very closely with how Neil describes in this video (James on Cade's channel has also made very similar statements before), except he did use a jig as I'm also planning on getting a custom frame done. I haven't been able to move all the jig measurements over to my current bike just yet, but at the very least all the shimming and wedging in my shoes is done and the difference in that alone is already night and day.
Hey mate, if you don’t mind me asking, what city are you in? I’ve tried contacting the Melbourne-based Steve Hogg trained fitter a couple of different ways, with zero joy so far😢 Thanks
Neill’s scientifically sound methods and transparency are so refreshing and informative. I love these discussions, great interviewing skills/editing from Cam
Neil videos are the most valuable on youtube! I did a bike fit in the past with an "expert" using Retüll. After the first session, another session for reviewing the position as I had numbness in my hands and heavy load in the neck. After the 2nd session, still the same, finally I change that position based on my feelings, but not forgetting the only thing I think was right: saddle height. I came for a 3rd session 1 year and a half later after changin my shoes... stil similar problems in my front end position.... that expert, never checked my two sides, never looked at me, only the angles in the program.... Is bike fitting using programs like Retüll worth it?? I think, nope! The only thing that works is watch and learn from REAL experts like Neil !!! Thanks for sharing so much!
There are quite a few good ones actually. I think there is not enough know. For example Lloyd Thomas is a world class fitter in germany. But if I dont know how to search, I would tend to gravitate to what shows up on media and think those are all that are. For example James manages to show himself off as a much better fitter on RUclips than he actually is. Even more so with Phil Burt. I know someone who flew from Goa in India to James for a Bikefit when there are many many world class fitters wayyyy better than him and closer, but little did he know. They are not on RUclips after all..
It's true that there are a lot of poor bike fitters out there. That's basically because the big brands created paint by numbers system that people follow blindly. The reason people travel to have a bike fit may be part geographically, there is no one in their area and part lack of doing their research. Neil is no doubt a quality fitter, it has more to do with his approach than anything else. Some cyclists are also guilty of wanting to say they travelled half way around the world, just because it's some kind of status symbol. There are plenty of good bike fitters all over the world, just the bike fitting community has not done a good job of communicating to the public what a quality fit is and there are a disproportional amount of bad fitters out there. One point Neil made is regarding a 'professional' qualification. The education of a Physio [Commonwealth] and the education of a PT [USA] are vastly different, the second being trained within an insurance based medical model. Too many medical professional equate their general training with an understanding of cycling biomechanics. I've seen just as many poor outcomes from 'medically trained' bike fitters as I have from muggles.
@@ronitdebnathhave you made a bike fitting by James, that qualifies you to know that there are wayyy better bike fitters than him? I'm just curious based on what quantifiable information you come to this conclusion
@@2up4down As a very important point, I am not very keen on getting fit by anyone as a be-all and end-all to judge them. I think that's counter productive. Lets say a world class fitter X does better on 999/1000 fits than James while james does better on me being the 1/1000 than fitter X. Would you call James better than fitter X? I would much rather judge from consistent outcomes than that of one person. What quantifiable info? Its very evident that quite a few of the things James says about bike geometry (over reliance about effective top tube without any mention of seatpost offset) are misleading and inherently false. For example Giant TCR XS=Cervelo S5 51 in terms of putting them into the same fruit basket dimension wise. but if you go by his logic, he may pit the TCR XS with Cervelo S5 48 as they have same ett.(If you want to read about this in detail check my post on 20th march on Fb profile link : facebook.com/raphael.sen.35/) Remember he doesnt check seatpost offset. I also follow clinical outcomes as well as success rates of most of the worlds best fitters as well as have corrected BMC on geometry. And my judgmentment maybe subjective but I dont think I need to get fit by a fitter in the world to judge them. I think their success ratio is much more important. I may go to a world class fitter and he may do me wrong but he would still be world class on their overall body of work. Else my judgement of them is self-centered and narcissistic.
@@2up4down Fair so I ll explain. I don't assess fitters by what they do to me. I am just one sample. Lets say fitter X is world class and we are pitting him against James to fit 1000 people. Now James fits me better than X but in the case of 999 other people X does a better job. How relevant is my experience then in the broad scheme of things? I think fitters should be judged on consistently outstanding success ratios and outcomes rather than what they did to me. I follow the work of most of the best fitters around the world so I am not speaking in thin air. Also there are erroneous assumptions in what James speaks about bike geometry online. I ll give u an example. He speaks about effective top tube without any mention of seat post offset and also mentions stack very little. An example if you go by his logic, the Cervelo S5 48 would be pitted with the TCR XS when in fact the TCR XS should be put in the same fruit basket as the S5 51 (although they have different ett 520 vs 535 but the tcr has a 15 offset post and the cervelo has a 0 offset). I had written about this on Facebook and many of the worlds best fitters agreed. The post is on 20th March if you are interested and the profile name is Ronit Debnath. In the former case, if any random person shows up and I am not sending them fitter X, I am being too narcissistic imho albeit my experience is relevant, but is a drop in the ocean when you see the whole picture. I have also corrected/improved BMC on their bike geometry. (Check previous Teammachine vs Teammachine R seatpost offset and st angle numbers (constant vs variable)).
Comment apart spirit level is spot on. Even tape measures are different unless you fork out for a quality product. Best bet is to get the fitter to use the tape measure you will be using
At a bare minimum, you need an accurate tape measure and level. It’s also highly recommended to have a cross/plumb laser. Even all of that is subject to +/- 2mm error even between *experienced* fitters. I’ve been in the industry nearly 15 years and was trained as a Fit Kit Level 1 (equivalent-they didn’t have levels back in the early 2000s). Of the fits I’ve done, about 30% were customers bringing their new bike after copying their old fit based on measurements, roughly the 10 best of those bikes were still off by at least 5mm in seat height and 10mm off in setback.
A jig is for pre-buy bike fits which every newbie should do instead if buying what‘s on sale. Also you can try out different crank lengths, stance widths and handlebars without much faff. It has its place in my opinion. However I agree that you should bring your bike to the fit and leave with it set up.
Totally. I had two fits on my bike and they never got me there, simply because there was a limited amount of adjustments to try. It wasn't until I had a fit on a jig where I tried different cranks, narrower bars and other parts of the setup within the session, that it was clear my bike was just too long (even with a 6cm stem) and I needed 155 cranks. This level of 'trying' is impossible to do on our own bike. I ended with a pre purchase fit and my current steed allows me to ride 6h with no issues. The video assumes the person won't take the bike to a fitting session with a jig, but I don't see how that could ever work. My bike was adjusted with the measurements during the session and I rode it on the turbo to fine tune any final issues. Also, a jig won't ever work if the person leading the fit doesn't know what to do with it.
A jig is another tool in the tool box. Like a Peloton, which is just another type of jig. Any tool can ultimately be used as a hammer, pry bar, or wedge. That’s not the point though. The big issue with any “system” is interpreting and applying the results. With care, attention to detail, and some intellectual honest, you should be able to get to a place that falls within the range of physical adaptability. The only exception involves people with very atypical kinematics or some kind of physical impairment.
Myself and a close mate have experienced Neills bike fitting skills and the results of tweaking bike set up to suit comfort for raceing was magic. We nick named him the “bike whisperer” would go back for a check up every 12mths if I was local. Good work Laurel and Hardy 🤣😅😜
Absolutely spot on Neil. I have been doing this for 20+ years myself and have had the luxury (at some point) of having one of those flash jigs to use as well. The only time I found it particularly handy was if somebody walked in the door that was like 6 foot 4, and you wanted to be able to (fairly quickly) establish whether they were going to benefit more from either the 62 or the 60 for example (when you did not have that size on hand to actually test). Also again as you said no matter how detailed I make the notes together with the diagram and explain the process of being able to replicate the fit. Very few people can actually do this with the accuracy needed. To your credit mate, you managed to very articulately, explain my exact feelings as well. Better than most people too mate including myself. 🙌🏼 Thank you for consistently, bringing common sense back to the table you beautiful skinny bastard 😉💪🏼
Neill - spot on as usual!! First fitter I've heard articulate my observations so concisely..... Avid endurance cyclist, instructor, mechanic, and fitter w PhD in sensor metrology
Another use for a jig would be as a pre bike purchase tool. So you get fitted on a jig and then you have dimensions to take away to make a more informed bike purchase. I'd say that as a general rule, get a bike that fits you, don't fit yourself to a bike.
Thanks RCA for another great video. Have been watching your videos a while now and Niels advice and agree with him 100% that a bike fit shouldn't be just about getting the angles within a given parameter. Furthermore, it seems that bike fitting has become the latest sales pitch at bike shop as its offered more now than ever.
A small comment for Nick: have you ever considered making video instructions on how to replicate your bike measurement? I would assume that would be a bit more comprehensive especially for people who are not geometry inclined. What do you think? Greetings from Switzerland 😉👋🏻
For those of us not in Aus, it be great to get a segment on how to choose, what to ask and/or what to look for in a bike fitter before you walk in the door.
I've had seven bike fits in the last ten years, all of them by well educated fitting pros and most of them including motion capture. Only one of them was any good, and I still had to tweak that one myself. I even had a fit done by a physical therapist experienced in bike fits, that one didn't go well either. Not a single fitter even checked knee tracking until I learned about that and specifically requested it. When I did knee tracking I found out I need a way wider stance width-- so now I use pedal extenders which helps tremendously. I think everyone should do knee tracking as part of their fit. I also have one arm 2 inches shorter than the other due to a childhood accident, that make it hard to fit the bike to my body. Bike fitters scratch their heads and AI software sometimes doesn't know what to do and literally just gives up. My point is, 1) professional fitters may not be all that helpful as you might think and, 2) A/I motion capture software can have problems depending on how your body works. Despite all that, I use MyVeloFit A/I motion capture software along with what I've learned on all of those fits and reading several books on bike fitting. So basically I do my own fits every year as I get older based on MyVeloFit and a lot of research and experience. That has worked pretty well. But I don't doubt I would get a better fit from Neil. Unfortunately that is cost prohibitive given the travel. Which is why people use tools like MyVeloFit. I think the key with this kind of A/I software is to always use the same camera, placed in the same location, with the same zoom level and at the same angle vertically and laterally. Keep the room well-lit too, I use a shop light. Try to minimize angle distortion so you are getting video straight on to your side as you are on the bike. Start with the camera at hip level and see how much distortion you get from the lense. Adjust the camera location and angle until the distortion appears minimized on your recordings. By the way, the best solution I found for such a big arm length discrepancy is to place one brake hood much higher up on the bar and the other brake hood much lower. It isn't perfect but it's pretty good. I even got a custom asymmetrical carbon bar made, but just placing the brake hoods at different locations works better. I wish Neil did trips around the US to do fits!
I'm going to try a local fit this spring- she's got a background in sports PT & it's a 3+ hour fit, so I have some hope it'll help a little. One things for sure, it'll be better than trying to do it myself, which has not typically worked out well.
Video Contents (more or less): 1. Jig data is hard to replicate back home. 2. Motion capture software measurements have too much variance in calculations 3. Communication by the fitter while on the back is key (how does it feel, fitter able to see issues) 4. Fitter should spend time with the rider off the bike to understand individual body motion. 4. Fitter should have some form of certification and background/familiar with body biomechanics.
Thanks for the advice on what to look for in bike fitters. Will probably be doing one soon now that a new uncut fork that replaced a stock fork cut too short for me. Extending the reach and effecting long rides more than it should in a bad way plus unsafe on rougher surfaces with top stem bolt above the fork.
How does Neil deal with integrated handlebars and stems? Especially with hidden cables, where it's very time intensive and costly to trial variations. Does a jig not allow for suggestions of longer/shorter positions?
My first bikefit was jig + software, oh boy what a disaster... Rode 10km after fit and I couldn´t ride a meter more... Got second fit and boom much better. Now I have a new bike and I can´t replicate measures, so I totally agree with Neil.
I'm always happy to hear bike fitters saying that reliance on technology is not a good idea. Personally I'd never trust someone who said that my fit is correct just because all the various angles are within some "ideal range". I do, however, think that using motion capture can be useful as a tool to, for example, see side by side the difference a change to the fit makes on the rider's pedal stroke or posture, or even just to show the rider how their interaction with the bike looks like from various angles. As for jigs, I think you missed their biggest advantage: the ease of adjustment. On a jig you can change the crank length or reach or whatever you want in seconds; front end changes can even be made without the rider having to stop pedalling. This saves a ton of time compared to changing components on an actual bike and enables the rider to better detect what's changed in back-to-back positions, as there's virtually no time in between. Not to mention the fact that some changes are either expensive, labour intensive or almost impossible to do on a customer's own bike. Crank length comes to mind first, followed by changes in stack or reach that exceed what's possible with "normal" stems and the scope of stack adjustment available on the bike. This may well be an issue if the frame is a totally wrong size or has an entirely wrong type of geometry (such as a super aggressive race bike owned by a rather unfit and inflexible consumer).
I actually seen a Argon18 fully adjustable bike jig at a high-end bike shop yesterday, good lord that thing was a mess! looked like a torture device lol
couldnt agree more, a few years back i had a bike fit with Retul system, fitter use a jig to do my fit and and transfer the measurement to my bike, reason not doing on my bike is someone borrowed their trainer..... after fitting is done, went for a few ride and felt slightly off and need to do my own readjustment.. worse $ i ever spend, and while the cost is consider average in my country, its still way expensive compare to others.
I think the best compromise is to bring the same saddle stuck on a seatpost. If the seat tube angle and crank length are the same between bikes, you can get lot of the key variables bang on (i.e., seat height, setback, tilt).
Been fitted on a jig and the fitter was actually the one transfering the setup from jig to bike. First ride out was a big dissapointment. The jig felt way better then the real thing. Only later I did realize the only worthwhile thing I learned was to get shorter (165) cranks - which I would anyways do based on Neil's suggestions. Well, has been an expensive learning experience
It’s a gimmick. I did ID Match from Selle Italia. Felt like a waste of money. Small gain in power, but it was from insoles and a cleat repositioning. Which didn’t involve motion capture.
this is a very touchy topic because I had a very bad fitter then i got a second fitter that can't fit with a one-by handlebar. so it was hard to find a fittter bike you
Honestly it is not easy to find an expert in bike fitting. I have had a Specialized Body Geometry bike fit when I raced on Specialized Tarmacs and Roubaix's . The best part of that was the fitting for wide cycling shoes that I needed and the saddle fit. I had a coach that used Dart fish motion capture that dialed in my cleat placement and bar placement. A cyclist shouldn't have to go to many different professionals to get the fit correct. Neal definitely is the best of the best. I am going to have to travel to Australia for the best fit and to ride some of Australia's best rides and races.
What happens when your client has an integrated handlebar and stem on their bike and you need to adjust grip reach during the bike fit? What if you need to reduce grip drop by 20 mm and they have cut the steerer so there is no upward adjustment available on their bike? Or their bike has hydraulic disc brakes and the cable length won't allow the handlebars to be raised? What happens if the client's bike has an integrated seat post and you need to change seat height during the bike fit? Crank length change? Handlebar width change? The client's saddle needs to come forward 20 mm but the seat post has 25 mm set-back and the saddle has carbon rails with limited for-aft travel?
If the world was full of Neill’s I agree, using jigs is not good. BUT it is not a world full of Niell’s - the jig greatly levels the playing field for more fitters to do a great job
So Neill, what would you consider to be some relevant questions to aks a bike fitter to asses if he/she is the one to go to ? Basic questions, and then some advanced ones. Cause it hangs with your expectations so to say. Like would you like to have a bikefit as a starter, as a rider seeking to get rid of discomfort or maybe as a rider looking for improvements in performance. Hope you can provide some insights. Thanks in advance (unfortunately i can not fly to the other side of the world 😄j
So when the customer comes with their current bike, wanting a bike fit for buying a new, (better) bike, would they not need to do position replication on the new bike also?
It’s just another POV and another way of doing things. It is presented in absolute terms but would benefit from some conditional statements. If you can’t operate a measuring tape, spirit level, or have a history of under/over tightening things, you’re not going to be saved by putting your bike on a wind trainer and using motion capture. If you suffer from Princess and the Pea syndrome or have zero body adaptation, nothing will ever be good enough. All you’ll do is pester the snot out of any fitter until you find one that does something other than just fit you for a bike. I know several people who, despite fitting and $10k bikes, grumble and mumble because their attack on the TdF is undermined by their comfort and ability during the five moderate rides they do from coffee shops to bistros. Giving these people something to hang on, like saying other fitters are doing it wrong, doesn’t do as much good as explaining the difference between “good enough” and something that is dialled in completely for a finite (and vanishingly short) period of time.
Really interesting video. You confirmed some of my suspicions about Retul. By the way, I see a Yoeleo R12 in the background. Are you going to talk about it? I love the geometry of mine.
@@roadcyclingacademy Thanks. Somehow I missed that one. I just watched it. By the way I am not a RUclipsr but Yoeleo went way out of their way to help me out when I had a small problem with the seatpost. In the end I couldn't be happier.
Not as often as a shipped bike turning up at its final destination after being run over by a baggage cart. Being a bit facetious here but what are the options when that happens? Another trip to Aus? I’ve flown that route about 20 times… it gets old and expensive pretty darned quickly. For those who can, yeah sure. It’s a beautiful place and this guy seems to know a lot about bike fitting. But DO get a print out of all the critical measurements of your fitted bike before disassembling it and putting your faith in baggage handlers.
so if i want to build a custom road bike as my first road bike then bike fitting jig is a good idea? asking because there really aren't any road bike that fit my needs so i need to make my own.
like sure i could buy prebuild one but i would have replace basically everything other than the frame and that's much more difficult for me than just making my own bike :D
I had a Level 3 fitter put me on a Reütel jig because my bicycle was so far off it wasn't possible to "shoe horn" fit it to me. His recommendation after doing this was to buy a Cervelo R3 as that was the closest bicycle to my actual fit. I probably need an adjustment as I'm four years on with it and starting to experience neck pain and stress issues. BTW, I bought a Pinarello Grevil because i didn't like the colorway of the R3 and I did the Grevil.
Fit and healthy posture / ergonomics must take priority as the frame can be tinted in many cases to your preference . If not , focus on comfort and performance . Neil made mistakes at first like everyone did and is where he is today due to good learning and perseverance .
My old boss had a road bicycle jig .it was a guide only but doesn't account precisely for assymetry of limbs and range of motion / flexibility / strength variations .
My mtb is quite close as my doctor fitted me and is a road cycling club veteran who has also coached and helped with member's fits . I feel good and ride the mtb with ease now .
I'm 64 and I've been riding bicycles for roughly 50 years and if I'm feeling good after a 100 mile plus rides with no issues, then I'm good to go, when you got a good thing going then why change and I'm still pounding old school lugged steel rigs with old school gear, no aero stuff for me just good old simple gear works for me. I'm off to the gym for a 2 hour grind, Later!
If you're flying from overseas a bike is classed as baggage so unless you bought a ticket with no bagge it won't cost you any extra. I've travelled with my bike plenty of times at no extra cost. Great content.....looking forward to my Bike fit by Neill in April!!
Also, all frames are not perfect from factory. The side to side tolerance is 5mm. QR dropouts have 3mm allowable tolerance from factory. Hence, no way to be able to replicate a fit, unless everything is starting from the same baseline.
I disagree. I got my mate to fit me up on a jig bike for a few beers and it felt good. Thing is didnt have wheels on it so we got the dremel out and running thru axles on it no probs. Stiff AF. Weighs 64kg total but hey...aero > weight.
I got bike fitting problem when bicycle booming during covid and there was also new bike fitter booming in Indonesia. I went to bike fitter who was national athlete, he (only) used motion capture software for bike fitting. I told him repeatedly during fitting session that my right knee and ankle movement were janky after he adjust my seat height too high (he only captured my left side). And he told me it was perfect fit, until I mad and he agreed to look my right side, and he reluctantly agreed that my right knee and ankle were too extended (with motion capture software). I was a former physician, and I know my limb length are not equal, but after told the fitter many times he just didn't understand. I asked him if I could use cleat shim, but he told me I can't and offered me almost impossible solution (during covid time when bike parts were expensive and hard to find) to buy 165 Right crank arm only.😅
SEA is rife with uneducated bikefitters that appeal to rich MAMILs. They see it as a self-employment money opportunity. See Crz Control and bike fitting courses LOL. Since you're already so close just fly to see Neil
It is worth noting, to all of you that consider assymetric crank lengths, that changing one crank to shorter wouldn't solve the issue. It would be working well only in the bottom position of the crank rotation, but on the upper position you would create even more assymetry in the pelvis, by having both shorter leg + shorter crank combo for a knee to bottom bracket distance, when on the other side you would have longer leg + longer crank in upper position. Cleat shim, shoe insert, special shoe maybe a thicker pedal if you are riding with platforms - those are working solutions. Pity that so many of those bike fitters work as you described - mindlessly following the guidance of the software, without a second thought.
Spends $5000 on travel/hotel/fit session. Won't spend $300 on oversized luggage fees. Typical cyclist. 🤣 (says the guy with $20k+ of bikes in his basement but always gripes about the price of tires and chains)
Why do you make so much sence and the majority of fitters just rely on jigs. I've had 2 fits on jigs that didn't work. Next fit will be on my bike and with a qualified physio/bikefitter in the UK...
Love this Content!! Wy fly to Australia without bike if we can fly the man himself over to our place :-)!! Get some people together (crowdfunding?!?) and buy a ticket and the hotel to spread the cost..... Neils' world wide bikefitting tour 🙃🛫🛬
This man does not get all the recognition he deserves.
He speaks the absolute truth and selflessly shares his knowledge. Allow me to elaborate.
During a family holiday in Europe, across the world from where I live, and without a bike, I visited a fitting shop that uses a Jig. Did the fit, felt good, bought the recommended bike and I tried for 9 months. Riding with aches and pains, I really tried to believe in the process and kept going.
I don’t know if it was my lack of skill setting up my bike or the fit itself. But it did not work for me and I gave up. Neck and shoulder pain, numb hands, numb genitals. A total mess.
I started watching Neils videos, paying attention to his detailed explanations and recommendations. Based on his videos and nothing else, I changed the reach, bar drop, setback and bar width.
Today I am very happy to say that I can ride painless. Finally I can do what I love. Riding my bike. Comfortable.
I cannot even imagine how my position would feel if I came, with my bike ,and got a fit by Neil. Hopefully one day I will.
I never had a bike fit but Neil's videos fixed my knee issues! I kept following all of the usual bike fitting tips and kept getting right knee pain after I finished a ride. It never hurt during a ride.
After watching a bunch of Neil's videos I lowered my saddle height by 15mm and moved my saddle back by 10mm. No more knee pain! Added bonus being no more saddle sores or numb genitals too.
your saddle placement matters, your bar position matters, but beyond that, your body can't discern whether you're sitting on a bike or a jig that replicates a bike. As Neil points out roughly 2:00 in, the problem exists if you don't transfer the measurements correctly. This isn't really any different than transferring your position to a new bike.
I've watch most of his video regarding cleat position, saddle height and saddle set back, I clearly see the difference I've made by watching all of his free content video in youtube, its really worth a subscribe to this guy
I am about to fly from france to Brisbane just to meet the guy 💁🏻♂️
Biker fitters think that because they have all this data and gear to measure things they can do a good job. But they often have little idea of what to do with it all.
Couldn’t recommend Neill highly enough. Saw him for both my road and TT bike and by far the best bike fits I’ve ever had. Most comfortable I’ve been since!
Had my first bike fit last weekend and it was quite the experience. Took a little over 4 hours and confirmed some theories I had developed after watching a lot of Neil's videos, like a leg length discrepancy and needing some wedging in my shoes, but also turned up a fair few other issues I don't think I would've ever found on my own.
In a way I found my fitter through Neil. He has previously spoken about his training with Steve Hogg and how it influenced his methods, so I went to Steve's site to find out more and found a (short) list of fitters Steve has trained and 'approved'. There was only one "local" to me, so I reached out to them and also started following them on social media to get an idea of how they work. It all matched up very closely with how Neil describes in this video (James on Cade's channel has also made very similar statements before), except he did use a jig as I'm also planning on getting a custom frame done. I haven't been able to move all the jig measurements over to my current bike just yet, but at the very least all the shimming and wedging in my shoes is done and the difference in that alone is already night and day.
Hey mate, if you don’t mind me asking, what city are you in?
I’ve tried contacting the Melbourne-based Steve Hogg trained fitter a couple of different ways, with zero joy so far😢
Thanks
Niel should travel the world !
Neill’s scientifically sound methods and transparency are so refreshing and informative. I love these discussions, great interviewing skills/editing from Cam
Neil videos are the most valuable on youtube! I did a bike fit in the past with an "expert" using Retüll. After the first session, another session for reviewing the position as I had numbness in my hands and heavy load in the neck. After the 2nd session, still the same, finally I change that position based on my feelings, but not forgetting the only thing I think was right: saddle height. I came for a 3rd session 1 year and a half later after changin my shoes... stil similar problems in my front end position.... that expert, never checked my two sides, never looked at me, only the angles in the program.... Is bike fitting using programs like Retüll worth it?? I think, nope! The only thing that works is watch and learn from REAL experts like Neil !!! Thanks for sharing so much!
If people are travelling half way around the world for a bike fit, it just shows how few decent bike fitters there are.
There are quite a few good ones actually. I think there is not enough know. For example Lloyd Thomas is a world class fitter in germany. But if I dont know how to search, I would tend to gravitate to what shows up on media and think those are all that are. For example James manages to show himself off as a much better fitter on RUclips than he actually is. Even more so with Phil Burt. I know someone who flew from Goa in India to James for a Bikefit when there are many many world class fitters wayyyy better than him and closer, but little did he know. They are not on RUclips after all..
It's true that there are a lot of poor bike fitters out there. That's basically because the big brands created paint by numbers system that people follow blindly.
The reason people travel to have a bike fit may be part geographically, there is no one in their area and part lack of doing their research.
Neil is no doubt a quality fitter, it has more to do with his approach than anything else. Some cyclists are also guilty of wanting to say they travelled half way around the world, just because it's some kind of status symbol.
There are plenty of good bike fitters all over the world, just the bike fitting community has not done a good job of communicating to the public what a quality fit is and there are a disproportional amount of bad fitters out there.
One point Neil made is regarding a 'professional' qualification. The education of a Physio [Commonwealth] and the education of a PT [USA] are vastly different, the second being trained within an insurance based medical model. Too many medical professional equate their general training with an understanding of cycling biomechanics. I've seen just as many poor outcomes from 'medically trained' bike fitters as I have from muggles.
@@ronitdebnathhave you made a bike fitting by James, that qualifies you to know that there are wayyy better bike fitters than him? I'm just curious based on what quantifiable information you come to this conclusion
@@2up4down As a very important point, I am not very keen on getting fit by anyone as a be-all and end-all to judge them. I think that's counter productive. Lets say a world class fitter X does better on 999/1000 fits than James while james does better on me being the 1/1000 than fitter X. Would you call James better than fitter X? I would much rather judge from consistent outcomes than that of one person. What quantifiable info? Its very evident that quite a few of the things James says about bike geometry (over reliance about effective top tube without any mention of seatpost offset) are misleading and inherently false. For example Giant TCR XS=Cervelo S5 51 in terms of putting them into the same fruit basket dimension wise. but if you go by his logic, he may pit the TCR XS with Cervelo S5 48 as they have same ett.(If you want to read about this in detail check my post on 20th march on Fb profile link : facebook.com/raphael.sen.35/) Remember he doesnt check seatpost offset. I also follow clinical outcomes as well as success rates of most of the worlds best fitters as well as have corrected BMC on geometry. And my judgmentment maybe subjective but I dont think I need to get fit by a fitter in the world to judge them. I think their success ratio is much more important. I may go to a world class fitter and he may do me wrong but he would still be world class on their overall body of work. Else my judgement of them is self-centered and narcissistic.
@@2up4down Fair so I ll explain. I don't assess fitters by what they do to me. I am just one sample. Lets say fitter X is world class and we are pitting him against James to fit 1000 people. Now James fits me better than X but in the case of 999 other people X does a better job. How relevant is my experience then in the broad scheme of things? I think fitters should be judged on consistently outstanding success ratios and outcomes rather than what they did to me. I follow the work of most of the best fitters around the world so I am not speaking in thin air. Also there are erroneous assumptions in what James speaks about bike geometry online. I ll give u an example. He speaks about effective top tube without any mention of seat post offset and also mentions stack very little. An example if you go by his logic, the Cervelo S5 48 would be pitted with the TCR XS when in fact the TCR XS should be put in the same fruit basket as the S5 51 (although they have different ett 520 vs 535 but the tcr has a 15 offset post and the cervelo has a 0 offset). I had written about this on Facebook and many of the worlds best fitters agreed. The post is on 20th March if you are interested and the profile name is Ronit Debnath. In the former case, if any random person shows up and I am not sending them fitter X, I am being too narcissistic imho albeit my experience is relevant, but is a drop in the ocean when you see the whole picture. I have also corrected/improved BMC on their bike geometry. (Check previous Teammachine vs Teammachine R seatpost offset and st angle numbers (constant vs variable)).
Comment apart spirit level is spot on. Even tape measures are different unless you fork out for a quality product. Best bet is to get the fitter to use the tape measure you will be using
At a bare minimum, you need an accurate tape measure and level. It’s also highly recommended to have a cross/plumb laser. Even all of that is subject to +/- 2mm error even between *experienced* fitters. I’ve been in the industry nearly 15 years and was trained as a Fit Kit Level 1 (equivalent-they didn’t have levels back in the early 2000s). Of the fits I’ve done, about 30% were customers bringing their new bike after copying their old fit based on measurements, roughly the 10 best of those bikes were still off by at least 5mm in seat height and 10mm off in setback.
A jig is for pre-buy bike fits which every newbie should do instead if buying what‘s on sale. Also you can try out different crank lengths, stance widths and handlebars without much faff. It has its place in my opinion. However I agree that you should bring your bike to the fit and leave with it set up.
Totally. I had two fits on my bike and they never got me there, simply because there was a limited amount of adjustments to try. It wasn't until I had a fit on a jig where I tried different cranks, narrower bars and other parts of the setup within the session, that it was clear my bike was just too long (even with a 6cm stem) and I needed 155 cranks. This level of 'trying' is impossible to do on our own bike.
I ended with a pre purchase fit and my current steed allows me to ride 6h with no issues.
The video assumes the person won't take the bike to a fitting session with a jig, but I don't see how that could ever work. My bike was adjusted with the measurements during the session and I rode it on the turbo to fine tune any final issues.
Also, a jig won't ever work if the person leading the fit doesn't know what to do with it.
A jig is another tool in the tool box. Like a Peloton, which is just another type of jig.
Any tool can ultimately be used as a hammer, pry bar, or wedge. That’s not the point though. The big issue with any “system” is interpreting and applying the results. With care, attention to detail, and some intellectual honest, you should be able to get to a place that falls within the range of physical adaptability. The only exception involves people with very atypical kinematics or some kind of physical impairment.
Myself and a close mate have experienced Neills bike fitting skills and the results of tweaking bike set up to suit comfort for raceing was magic. We nick named him the “bike whisperer” would go back for a check up every 12mths if I was local.
Good work Laurel and Hardy 🤣😅😜
Absolutely spot on Neil.
I have been doing this for 20+ years myself and have had the luxury (at some point) of having one of those flash jigs to use as well. The only time I found it particularly handy was if somebody walked in the door that was like 6 foot 4, and you wanted to be able to (fairly quickly) establish whether they were going to benefit more from either the 62 or the 60 for example (when you did not have that size on hand to actually test).
Also again as you said no matter how detailed I make the notes together with the diagram and explain the process of being able to replicate the fit.
Very few people can actually do this with the accuracy needed.
To your credit mate, you managed to very articulately, explain my exact feelings as well.
Better than most people too mate including myself. 🙌🏼
Thank you for consistently, bringing common sense back to the table you beautiful skinny bastard 😉💪🏼
Neill - spot on as usual!! First fitter I've heard articulate my observations so concisely..... Avid endurance cyclist, instructor, mechanic, and fitter w PhD in sensor metrology
Another use for a jig would be as a pre bike purchase tool. So you get fitted on a jig and then you have dimensions to take away to make a more informed bike purchase. I'd say that as a general rule, get a bike that fits you, don't fit yourself to a bike.
Thanks RCA for another great video. Have been watching your videos a while now and Niels advice and agree with him 100% that a bike fit shouldn't be just about getting the angles within a given parameter. Furthermore, it seems that bike fitting has become the latest sales pitch at bike shop as its offered more now than ever.
A small comment for Nick: have you ever considered making video instructions on how to replicate your bike measurement? I would assume that would be a bit more comprehensive especially for people who are not geometry inclined. What do you think?
Greetings from Switzerland 😉👋🏻
He made a video about that item
For those of us not in Aus, it be great to get a segment on how to choose, what to ask and/or what to look for in a bike fitter before you walk in the door.
Great quality from Neill, as always
I've had seven bike fits in the last ten years, all of them by well educated fitting pros and most of them including motion capture. Only one of them was any good, and I still had to tweak that one myself. I even had a fit done by a physical therapist experienced in bike fits, that one didn't go well either. Not a single fitter even checked knee tracking until I learned about that and specifically requested it. When I did knee tracking I found out I need a way wider stance width-- so now I use pedal extenders which helps tremendously. I think everyone should do knee tracking as part of their fit.
I also have one arm 2 inches shorter than the other due to a childhood accident, that make it hard to fit the bike to my body. Bike fitters scratch their heads and AI software sometimes doesn't know what to do and literally just gives up. My point is, 1) professional fitters may not be all that helpful as you might think and, 2) A/I motion capture software can have problems depending on how your body works.
Despite all that, I use MyVeloFit A/I motion capture software along with what I've learned on all of those fits and reading several books on bike fitting. So basically I do my own fits every year as I get older based on MyVeloFit and a lot of research and experience. That has worked pretty well. But I don't doubt I would get a better fit from Neil. Unfortunately that is cost prohibitive given the travel. Which is why people use tools like MyVeloFit.
I think the key with this kind of A/I software is to always use the same camera, placed in the same location, with the same zoom level and at the same angle vertically and laterally. Keep the room well-lit too, I use a shop light. Try to minimize angle distortion so you are getting video straight on to your side as you are on the bike. Start with the camera at hip level and see how much distortion you get from the lense. Adjust the camera location and angle until the distortion appears minimized on your recordings. By the way, the best solution I found for such a big arm length discrepancy is to place one brake hood much higher up on the bar and the other brake hood much lower. It isn't perfect but it's pretty good. I even got a custom asymmetrical carbon bar made, but just placing the brake hoods at different locations works better. I wish Neil did trips around the US to do fits!
What books would you recommend?
I'm going to try a local fit this spring- she's got a background in sports PT & it's a 3+ hour fit, so I have some hope it'll help a little. One things for sure, it'll be better than trying to do it myself, which has not typically worked out well.
"The big difficulty is transference ..."
My partner's therapist said the same thing!
Video Contents (more or less):
1. Jig data is hard to replicate back home.
2. Motion capture software measurements have too much variance in calculations
3. Communication by the fitter while on the back is key (how does it feel, fitter able to see issues)
4. Fitter should spend time with the rider off the bike to understand individual body motion.
4. Fitter should have some form of certification and background/familiar with body biomechanics.
Thanks for the advice on what to look for in bike fitters. Will probably be doing one soon now that a new uncut fork that replaced a stock fork cut too short for me. Extending the reach and effecting long rides more than it should in a bad way plus unsafe on rougher surfaces with top stem bolt above the fork.
How does Neil deal with integrated handlebars and stems? Especially with hidden cables, where it's very time intensive and costly to trial variations. Does a jig not allow for suggestions of longer/shorter positions?
Would be fascinated to get Neill's thoughts on Dan Empfield's FIST protocol, which is based around dynamic (but largely self-selected) fitting.
My first bikefit was jig + software, oh boy what a disaster... Rode 10km after fit and I couldn´t ride a meter more... Got second fit and boom much better. Now I have a new bike and I can´t replicate measures, so I totally agree with Neil.
I'm always happy to hear bike fitters saying that reliance on technology is not a good idea. Personally I'd never trust someone who said that my fit is correct just because all the various angles are within some "ideal range". I do, however, think that using motion capture can be useful as a tool to, for example, see side by side the difference a change to the fit makes on the rider's pedal stroke or posture, or even just to show the rider how their interaction with the bike looks like from various angles.
As for jigs, I think you missed their biggest advantage: the ease of adjustment. On a jig you can change the crank length or reach or whatever you want in seconds; front end changes can even be made without the rider having to stop pedalling. This saves a ton of time compared to changing components on an actual bike and enables the rider to better detect what's changed in back-to-back positions, as there's virtually no time in between. Not to mention the fact that some changes are either expensive, labour intensive or almost impossible to do on a customer's own bike. Crank length comes to mind first, followed by changes in stack or reach that exceed what's possible with "normal" stems and the scope of stack adjustment available on the bike. This may well be an issue if the frame is a totally wrong size or has an entirely wrong type of geometry (such as a super aggressive race bike owned by a rather unfit and inflexible consumer).
I actually seen a Argon18 fully adjustable bike jig at a high-end bike shop yesterday, good lord that thing was a mess! looked like a torture device lol
couldnt agree more, a few years back i had a bike fit with Retul system, fitter use a jig to do my fit and and transfer the measurement to my bike, reason not doing on my bike is someone borrowed their trainer..... after fitting is done, went for a few ride and felt slightly off and need to do my own readjustment.. worse $ i ever spend, and while the cost is consider average in my country, its still way expensive compare to others.
I think the best compromise is to bring the same saddle stuck on a seatpost. If the seat tube angle and crank length are the same between bikes, you can get lot of the key variables bang on (i.e., seat height, setback, tilt).
Not necessarily. Read fit bike vs size cycle by Chris Balser.
@@ronitdebnath Interesting, thank you!
Been fitted on a jig and the fitter was actually the one transfering the setup from jig to bike. First ride out was a big dissapointment. The jig felt way better then the real thing.
Only later I did realize the only worthwhile thing I learned was to get shorter (165) cranks - which I would anyways do based on Neil's suggestions.
Well, has been an expensive learning experience
This is fantastic info!
It’s a gimmick. I did ID Match from Selle Italia. Felt like a waste of money. Small gain in power, but it was from insoles and a cleat repositioning. Which didn’t involve motion capture.
this is a very touchy topic because I had a very bad fitter then i got a second fitter that can't fit with a one-by handlebar. so it was hard to find a fittter bike you
Honestly it is not easy to find an expert in bike fitting. I have had a Specialized Body Geometry bike fit when I raced on Specialized Tarmacs and Roubaix's . The best part of that was the fitting for wide cycling shoes that I needed and the saddle fit.
I had a coach that used Dart fish motion capture that dialed in my cleat placement and bar placement.
A cyclist shouldn't have to go to many different professionals to get the fit correct.
Neal definitely is the best of the best.
I am going to have to travel to Australia for the best fit and to ride some of Australia's best rides and races.
What happens when your client has an integrated handlebar and stem on their bike and you need to adjust grip reach during the bike fit? What if you need to reduce grip drop by 20 mm and they have cut the steerer so there is no upward adjustment available on their bike? Or their bike has hydraulic disc brakes and the cable length won't allow the handlebars to be raised? What happens if the client's bike has an integrated seat post and you need to change seat height during the bike fit? Crank length change? Handlebar width change? The client's saddle needs to come forward 20 mm but the seat post has 25 mm set-back and the saddle has carbon rails with limited for-aft travel?
If the world was full of Neill’s I agree, using jigs is not good. BUT it is not a world full of Niell’s - the jig greatly levels the playing field for more fitters to do a great job
So Neill, what would you consider to be some relevant questions to aks a bike fitter to asses if he/she is the one to go to ? Basic questions, and then some advanced ones. Cause it hangs with your expectations so to say. Like would you like to have a bikefit as a starter, as a rider seeking to get rid of discomfort or maybe as a rider looking for improvements in performance. Hope you can provide some insights. Thanks in advance (unfortunately i can not fly to the other side of the world 😄j
So when the customer comes with their current bike, wanting a bike fit for buying a new, (better) bike, would they not need to do position replication on the new bike also?
Time for Neill to 'train' people and then people can have the Neill award
Was this an attack on James from bicycle and bike fit Tuesdays filmed usually on Mondays?!
It’s just another POV and another way of doing things. It is presented in absolute terms but would benefit from some conditional statements.
If you can’t operate a measuring tape, spirit level, or have a history of under/over tightening things, you’re not going to be saved by putting your bike on a wind trainer and using motion capture.
If you suffer from Princess and the Pea syndrome or have zero body adaptation, nothing will ever be good enough. All you’ll do is pester the snot out of any fitter until you find one that does something other than just fit you for a bike.
I know several people who, despite fitting and $10k bikes, grumble and mumble because their attack on the TdF is undermined by their comfort and ability during the five moderate rides they do from coffee shops to bistros.
Giving these people something to hang on, like saying other fitters are doing it wrong, doesn’t do as much good as explaining the difference between “good enough” and something that is dialled in completely for a finite (and vanishingly short) period of time.
Probably because James is always throwing shade at physios!
Really interesting video. You confirmed some of my suspicions about Retul. By the way, I see a Yoeleo R12 in the background. Are you going to talk about it? I love the geometry of mine.
See here ruclips.net/video/BeO4wSGixKk/видео.htmlsi=25VgxN9kXoT4ZzUY
@@roadcyclingacademy Thanks. Somehow I missed that one. I just watched it. By the way I am not a RUclipsr but Yoeleo went way out of their way to help me out when I had a small problem with the seatpost. In the end I couldn't be happier.
Bottom line here…excellent content. As always.
What about a smart bike? They're cheaper and adjust decently, probably not as much as a full bike fitter tool but close enough?
How often does someone fly in from overseas to see him?
Not as often as a shipped bike turning up at its final destination after being run over by a baggage cart.
Being a bit facetious here but what are the options when that happens? Another trip to Aus? I’ve flown that route about 20 times… it gets old and expensive pretty darned quickly.
For those who can, yeah sure. It’s a beautiful place and this guy seems to know a lot about bike fitting. But DO get a print out of all the critical measurements of your fitted bike before disassembling it and putting your faith in baggage handlers.
so if i want to build a custom road bike as my first road bike then bike fitting jig is a good idea? asking because there really aren't any road bike that fit my needs so i need to make my own.
like sure i could buy prebuild one but i would have replace basically everything other than the frame and that's much more difficult for me than just making my own bike :D
Any chance Neil will ever do a work trip to the United States?
I had a Level 3 fitter put me on a Reütel jig because my bicycle was so far off it wasn't possible to "shoe horn" fit it to me. His recommendation after doing this was to buy a Cervelo R3 as that was the closest bicycle to my actual fit. I probably need an adjustment as I'm four years on with it and starting to experience neck pain and stress issues. BTW, I bought a Pinarello Grevil because i didn't like the colorway of the R3 and I did the Grevil.
Fit and healthy posture / ergonomics must take priority as the frame can be tinted in many cases to your preference . If not , focus on comfort and performance . Neil made mistakes at first like everyone did and is where he is today due to good learning and perseverance .
My old boss had a road bicycle jig .it was a guide only but doesn't account precisely for assymetry of limbs and range of motion / flexibility / strength variations .
My mtb is quite close as my doctor fitted me and is a road cycling club veteran who has also coached and helped with member's fits . I feel good and ride the mtb with ease now .
I'm 64 and I've been riding bicycles for roughly 50 years and if I'm feeling good after a 100 mile plus rides with no issues, then I'm good to go, when you got a good thing going then why change and I'm still pounding old school lugged steel rigs with old school gear, no aero stuff for me just good old simple gear works for me. I'm off to the gym for a 2 hour grind, Later!
If you're flying from overseas a bike is classed as baggage so unless you bought a ticket with no bagge it won't cost you any extra. I've travelled with my bike plenty of times at no extra cost. Great content.....looking forward to my Bike fit by Neill in April!!
Also, all frames are not perfect from factory. The side to side tolerance is 5mm. QR dropouts have 3mm allowable tolerance from factory. Hence, no way to be able to replicate a fit, unless everything is starting from the same baseline.
I disagree. I got my mate to fit me up on a jig bike for a few beers and it felt good. Thing is didnt have wheels on it so we got the dremel out and running thru axles on it no probs. Stiff AF.
Weighs 64kg total but hey...aero > weight.
I got bike fitting problem when bicycle booming during covid and there was also new bike fitter booming in Indonesia. I went to bike fitter who was national athlete, he (only) used motion capture software for bike fitting.
I told him repeatedly during fitting session that my right knee and ankle movement were janky after he adjust my seat height too high (he only captured my left side). And he told me it was perfect fit, until I mad and he agreed to look my right side, and he reluctantly agreed that my right knee and ankle were too extended (with motion capture software).
I was a former physician, and I know my limb length are not equal, but after told the fitter many times he just didn't understand.
I asked him if I could use cleat shim, but he told me I can't and offered me almost impossible solution (during covid time when bike parts were expensive and hard to find) to buy 165 Right crank arm only.😅
SEA is rife with uneducated bikefitters that appeal to rich MAMILs. They see it as a self-employment money opportunity. See Crz Control and bike fitting courses LOL. Since you're already so close just fly to see Neil
It is worth noting, to all of you that consider assymetric crank lengths, that changing one crank to shorter wouldn't solve the issue.
It would be working well only in the bottom position of the crank rotation, but on the upper position you would create even more assymetry in the pelvis, by having both shorter leg + shorter crank combo for a knee to bottom bracket distance, when on the other side you would have longer leg + longer crank in upper position.
Cleat shim, shoe insert, special shoe maybe a thicker pedal if you are riding with platforms - those are working solutions.
Pity that so many of those bike fitters work as you described - mindlessly following the guidance of the software, without a second thought.
@@ukaszmichalski4766wow, thank you very much for your insight sir!
You also can't 100% replicate the geometry of the parts. Thinking of the special Aerocoach-Handlebar or even different STI-Hoods
Wow. The price of big fit jigs is insane. They are on par with overpriced road bikes.
Spends $5000 on travel/hotel/fit session. Won't spend $300 on oversized luggage fees. Typical cyclist. 🤣 (says the guy with $20k+ of bikes in his basement but always gripes about the price of tires and chains)
The jig that framebuilders use, is nothing like the "jig" (ie. fit bike) that people who do bike fitting use. Not sure why he's conflating the two.
Why do you make so much sence and the majority of fitters just rely on jigs. I've had 2 fits on jigs that didn't work. Next fit will be on my bike and with a qualified physio/bikefitter in the UK...
Riding prowess and fitting prowess 😅
Read Fit Bike vs Size Cycle by Chris Balser.
Another example of Balser being ahead of the curve, just he doesn't have a buddy with a RUclips channel.
@@maxblack9557 Top 10 in the world. Easily.
@@maxblack9557 Top 10 in the world. Easily.
@@maxblack9557 Top 10 in the world. Easily.
@@maxblack9557 Top 10 in the world. Easily.
Rant? Not angry or say ah enough.
The old secret fire argument…
its not that magic to fit a bike, i like the use of the 3d motion
Love this Content!! Wy fly to Australia without bike if we can fly the man himself over to our place :-)!! Get some people together (crowdfunding?!?) and buy a ticket and the hotel to spread the cost..... Neils' world wide bikefitting tour 🙃🛫🛬