I am currently battling with my bike shop about the frame size i need for my new bike, which is ridiculous on it’s own. I am 53 and i am Cycling my whole life and my current bike fit is perfect. They just refuse to extrapolate to the new frame. 52 ? Nah… We’ll not be going near it ! My legs are shorter and my torso is longer than ‘average’. So THANK YOU for stating the obvious to me, apparently not obvious to them, to go for one size, or even two sizes smaller. They said that they won’t even consider that without their 250€ bike fit…. Nuts !! I already am in my preferred posture and I don’t have injuries and I don’t need to go faster or more aerodynamic either. Go to another bike shop ! Well… Specialized has cut out many smaller dealers so this shop is all we have within 100 km 😂 THANKS AGAIN ! This ups my confidence a lot !
Topic more important than ever in 2023 not only for comfort and enjoyment but also avoiding potentially very expensive mistake of wrong frame size and geometry. For my first road bike 12 + yrs ago went one size too big on poor advice, made it work but always a less than ideal compromise. Curious how many others experienced similar ? . Great advice fella’s every point a gem . Will save many a lot of pain in all sorts of ways . Chapeau to both ⭐⭐
Got my first roadbike in a local bikeshop run by 2 ex racers … the spared around 3 hours for me, I tried the 2 sizes with some changes and decided for the smaller one … was the right decision and will always going back to them rather then to big chain stores … btw it was a beginner bike with low spec FSA-Sora but they considered this sale as important as if it was a full spec bike … kudos to local bike shops ❤ (zanolini 4 ever)🎉
Cam & Neill...dynamic duo. The videos have really helped. From going to shorter cranks to adjusting the fit. Really getting lots of useful information from you both. Keep it coming!!
Thanks to both of you guys for putting out OUTSTANDINGLY helpful videos. I'm a short-leg, long-torso myself and I've been pondering this exact issue for months (especially since we can't test ride bikes in Sydney at the moment!) until I found this video. Great work
Hi from the uk. Another great video thanks Cam. Had a bike fit last year on my road bike as part of the process of getting a steel gravel bike built. Absolutely blown away by the complexity of frame geometry and how a small adjustment in one area has implications elsewhere. It a fascinating process and I learned so much. I’d recommend it to anyone looking for a new bike or getting one built.
I have a long torso short legs ratio and am so happy that I went a size down. 20 years ago my cycling friend told me that I needed a 58, ended up on a 56 and rode it for a year or two before getting a 54 with a flipped130 stem. Also Rotated the bars down and got even lower. Super comfy and can ride all day.Very informative series btw!
Really appreciate the video guys! Logical and straight forward. Last summer I got a alloy bike with rather aggressive geometry (first road bike), started learning about geometry and fit what I could. After tweaking and trying things I am now in a comfortable and fun position, but with a 80mm stem and a spacer underneath. Now I know better to get a smaller frame next time (just one size). It is good fun to find solutions on a bike that's luckily a reasonable fit.
Great advice. Good to hear general recommendations based around different body shapes considering I'm one of those unusual types with ridiculously long legs, and a short torso for my height. Something most of these bike fit vids fail to mention.
I found a long leg/short torso advice confusing though, and certainly the opposite of my experience. Yes, I have a quite high handlebar drop, but I also can't reach very far, even though my armspan is the same as my height. I am also hyperflexible. Ended up with a 6cm stem on my first (endurance) road bike and it was still too long, especially after I found I needed 155 cranks. Decided to buy another frame and went for a bike fit in a jig before buying. I found nearly all XS frameswould still be too long, even though they all cater for my height. Ended up with a LOOK, as it has an unsusually high head tube and short top tube. I have a 7cm stem, which makes for much better handling. Unbelievable how much comfortable road cycling became with a well fitting bike. 6h rides and no issues.
Another great video, dudes. Just one thing: reach and stack when shown in terms of frame geometry are (at least 95% of the time) relative to that same top-center of the head tube as the effective top tube, not the handlebars. So when combined with the seat tube angle (and in extreme cases, head tube angle), they give you the same information as effective top tube length and head tube length (and arguably even more accurate, since they take into account the possible differences in forks, bb drop).
Stack and reach will let you know very quickly if the frame you're looking at is in the ballpark to fit you. If you've got a 50mm stack of spacers and the bike you're lusting after has a stack 20mm lower, then youre SOL
Yes, turns out it's always been as complicated as I always thought it was. Sometimes it was difficult to convince some of my friends that they might enjoy cycling, but then having done so, it's been even harder to convince them to avoid buying a poor-fitting bike.
Watched this after purchasing, but it matches with my experience. Short legs, long torso (really long arms): got an Emonda (H1.5 fit) in a size down from Trek's suggestion. Dropping spacers every couple rides as I get used to the new position.
A very interesting and informative video. I have been riding bikes for over 30 years and at 6' 4" have always been firmly recommended 60cm frames by manufacturers' websites and I'm not between sizes either. I don't think I am abnormally proportioned in any way but have come to realise that a 60cm frame is too big for me so stepped down to a 58cm Cannondale Synapse for my latest bike which fits me a lot better. It's not just that it's an endurance geometry either because I have previously had 60cm endurance geometry frames that were way too big for me. The problem with larger bikes is they come with larger components as well, stems, cranks, bars etc. In my opinion if you buy a bike which is too small for you, you always have room for adjustment with a longer stem, more seat post etc, but if you buy a bike which is too big then you don't want a stem much below 90mm otherwise the steering gets a bit twitchy, especially on fast descents. As Neil says, you ideally want a bike which needs a stem between say 100mm-120mm.
Amen brother! I'm 6'1" and generally look for a bike with >60cm top tube. my proportions go the other way, my current bike has a 437mm reach (140mm stem). I need a longer stem since my arms are so long, if I had a bike that had enough reach that I could use a short stem then the wheel would be way to far in front of me for a good weight balance.
Interesting…I’m 6’5” and find that most 63cm frames are BARELY big enough for me! My handlebar drop is often a little more than I would like due to a short head tube, I need to use a 13 or 14cm stem to get proper reach, and my saddle setback is at its rearward limit to get my legs and knees in the proper position. Unlike many tall people, I am not “all leg”…rather, my legs and torso are “normal” in their proportions to each other…just a little more stretched out than in “normal”, height deficient folks. It seems that most big frames are built for people with odd proportions…I find it frustrating that smaller frames are often built “square” I.e. 58cm x 58cm, but my 63cm frames only have 60cm top tubes (or shorter!). A 62cm top tube would be great for me. I would love a custom frame, but there is the little problem of $$$$$$$!
@@E.T_rode_bikes_As_well Thanks for sharing, this makes me feel more secure in my purchase. I tried multiple bikes, most multiple times, and ended up as a 6’ guy on a 54cm endurance bike. This goes against all manufacturer guidelines that I’ve seen, but it just felt better than everything. I just still had a nagging feeling that I absolutely needed the recommended 58cm and was shocked I ended up on a 54.
I have seen this video now and I want to thank you. I have long legs and shorter arms and always bought an XL and always felt streched regardless of the stem size. Now, day by day of searching, and seeing your video, I understand that a shorter top tube, and a taller head tube, implying a shorter reach and taller stack would help me. And also not being at the limit of a range. Becausr I tried L size bike and rise up the saddle and I am reaching low and my neck is tilted and hurts the cervical. Just be in the middle or around it...At least I hope I understood 🙂 I just want no more pain 🙂 l want a gravel, but I think Endurance road bike is the answer. For the gravel, I have an MTB, L one and it feels great.
Mine was the Allez sprint, at 55 years young. Bought used and inexpensive as my 1st roadie.. long legs, short torso, not flexible.. 6ft and tweaked a 58 to make it fit.
My bike fitter wanted me to go up a size with a short stem. I hated it, went a frame down and went to a 130 stem and I can ride 6 hrs no problem. Neil is spot on. I'm short legs and long torso.
Another great edition in getting the most out of your bike riding. So much quality advice. Can't go wrong on bike purchase n + 1 with this one. Thank you Cam & Neill
Agree that the seat angle is important, but other than that I would deem stack and reach more important than ETT and headtube length. You cannot just compare head tube length for example without factoring in the position of the bottom bracket relative to it.
Good info here. I fit the SE asian genotype and this is spot on. I started on an Allez Sprint, which was too aggressive with the short head and top tube. I had to put a 130mm stem to get the cockpit correct. My seat was also pushed all the way forward on the 20* offset seatpost. According to Specialized's size chart, I was inbetween a size 54 and 52; I went with the 52. I recently swittched over to the new Trek emonda (52cm) and it fits sooooo much better. The top tube is 1cm longer; I switched over to a 5* offset seatpost; and the bar has an added 2cm in reach. I'm using all the spacers, but thhe fit and feel is so much more comfortable, which in turn has made me faster, and my lower back is no longer sore from riding!
Long legs short torso problem here. Go up a size to increase the head tube height reducing drop to bars invariably results in a longer TT. I usually end up on 70-80mm stems. With the current trend in endurance bikes things are getting better for my body type. That, said I don't want to spend more money on new frame which will invariably mean an upgrade to new disc wheelsets. I've had my fill of spending thousands on bikes over the decades. That said old age will probably force me into it in the not to distant future 😂🤣
This is surprisingly great general advice, surprising because bike fit is a very difficult thing to quickly summarize due to the high number of variables.
This is probably the most informative video on bike fit on the internet. I’d add to think about what kind of riding you want to do and for how long. Do you want a bike for 30k crit races or 300k sportive endurance rides?
Good video, very interesting listening to what Neil had to say. If i was looking for a new bike would definitely like to use his services to identify where i should be looking for my next bike. Australia though is a long way to go from the UK.
Great , informative content gentleman ‼ Neal does a wonderful, yet simple explanation on how numerous variables need to be addressed to determine the optimized size frame for the INDIVIDUAL rider . Those small adjustments and variables have a HUGE impact on riding nor just more comfortably , but more efficiently and effectively
Thanks for making these videos Cam (and Neil). I'm 5'9 with a 84cm inseam which is more average for someone 6ft and above so what Neil was saying about going up a size really made sense. I was recommended a 52cm and then a 54cm size frame and I've never quite been able to get comfortable on either even after several bike fits. By the time I set my correct saddle height the bars are way too low for me and I get too much pressure on my hands. A lot of bike fitters I feel are ex amateur racers and so hesitate to recommend larger sizes. I was well on my way to giving up road cycling but I've just purchased a 56cm Specialized allez frame and can't wait to give it one last shot.
A logic behind that is that with a shorter frame your handlebars are lower but also less far away, evening out the difference. But 52 seems a bit too small. With 56 you’ll probably need a short stem like 80mm, but I anyways don’t understand what some people have against short stems. I’m 5‘11 with 88cm inseam and currently ride a size 56 (not specialized) with something like 15cm bar drop
I'm surprised the 54 cm frame was not comfortable. I am 1m79 with an inseam of 82 cm and i was going to pick a 54 cm frame for a cannondale optimo bike, then the shopkeeper told me 56 would be better due to my inseam. So i did like he advised. When i trier the bike i had a lot of difficulty getting on top of the pedal to push, because the saddle tube has a setback of 15 mm. So i had to change the tube. Now it's a bit better but i feel like i wanna move the saddle still a bit forward. So for this type of frame and original saddle tube the 54 would have been better for me i guess. When you try to up your cadence do you feel comfortable and in control of your pedal strokes ?
Great Video that I wish was available so many years ago when getting into the sport & even 6 years ago when a Bike Shop recommended a Frame too large. Such a contrast to a LBS Manager / salesperson who asks how tall you are(it still goes on at multiple shops) and does not consider anything else (Torso vs Leg length, Arm Length, Flexibility, Physical Issues, etc). The suggestion for Test / Demo rides is spot on. Giant used to do Demo days where they brought a big truck to a Dealer / Event / etc and You could test various models / sizes. More Recently, I even rented a Bike I was interested in from a Bike Rental place more geared to Tourists but had some nice Road Bikes too. Gives You a longer time to really feel the bike. Some Bike shops might also be able to do a Demo bike for a day or two. Distributor might be a source too. The time & a few $$ spent up front will save all sorts of frustration, pain & big $$$ if You get the wrong size Frame. Not to mention the lost joy of riding something that is not ideal. Thanks Neill & Cam.
I usually use stack, reach and seattube angle because all three of those measurements are relative to the bb which is fixed position. Steering tube height should not be used because it doesn’t consider the bb drop which also influences the saddle vs bar height.
@Jerome Bergeron, as a criterium bike racer, the height of the headtube is very important to me. If the headtube is too tall, I won’t be able to have the bars low enough to get into an aero position in the drops.
Going to a bike fitter would have probably been a great investment, even if it costs more up front. I am on my third road bike in 2 years, to finally get the fit right. I am 6`3 with long legs and short arms. When I bought my first bike the guy just looked at me, measured my legs and put me on a 62 frame. That was wayyyy to large. I ended up swapping to a mountainbike stem and short reach handlebars, but it was still too long. Second bike was a 59, but in the end it was still too long and also too low, because it wasn't endurance geometry anymore. Now I am on a 56 very relaxed short reach and high stack endurance bike with a 50mm stem and 38cm bars with 70mm reach and can finally comfortably ride long distances. Looking at the bike you'd think I'd have an almost upright position, but it is more agressive than some of my friends are on their race bikes. I call it the T-Rex bike fit ;)
Neill is sooooo eloquent; great topic you touched on, since I am always kind of running between sizes. For my Canyon bikes e.g. I did opt for a L size frame (I do fall somewhat between their L and XL bracket) which leaves me probably at some restricted options with regard to adjustability - but I do feel comfortable on the bikes, no doubt. For my next purchase I will definitely review this video and do proper research prior committing. Thanks guys!
got similarities with Neill, got long leg, slender body, narrow sit bone heel dropper.. let me guess.. if we put the cleat on mid foot, therefore effectively shorten our leg, that mean we can go for "normal" size because the head tube is now within our reach.
Cam, I hope you don’t mind the lack of longitudinal and axial stiffness of the O2 VAM along the top tube just back from the headset when your stomping on the bars laying down those big sprint watts... other than that the O2 VAM is an amazing frame !
this is actually contradicting my feel for the bike completely, I'm short legs, long torso and lower racing position is giving me all sorts of aches and pains
Dang. I wish I would have watched this video before I bought my two bikes. I'm long-torsoed/short-legged and I have to have my saddle slammed all the way forward and I still can't get far enough over my 160mm... should've gone down a size or two.
Get a bike fit frame selection from a reputable bike fitter in your area for all you newbies wanting to get into cycling. Its worth the investment and takes out the guess work.
Very useful video! Unfortunately, I can't find anywhere that offers bike fit service in my region at the moment. I'm having trouble choosing the right frame size because I have a positive ape index of 184 cm and I'm 174 cm tall. Greetings!
In squatting femur to tibia ratio dictates torso angle and a shorter femur produces a more upright quad dominant squat. would the extremes of this ratio influence crank size/ cleat placement
If my flexibility Is poor (i can't touch my feet i just touch my ankles) so should i use the next size option? Also my Butt Bons hurt me, what should i do?
I don't really understand. I have long legs and a shorter torso and arms. Why would I choose a bigger frame? Sure...higher handelbar due to the bigger cockpit but the reach would still be too large. I always felt more comfortable on smaller frames since grabbing the Hoods on the larger frame felt unnatural long. Is there a reason, why Mr. Stanbury is recommending a larger frame for Long legs/short torso people?
Why don't bike compnays or shops offer full bike fitting and take the cost off bike when u buy, In the UK I've not seen this offered , is it offered in AUZ
I'm at a point where I am looking to buy an e-bike (Orbea Gain). I currently ride a 59cm Bianchi Intenso and find the size and geometry suits me (I'm 6'1", 75 and fit, riding road for 35 years). Now sizing has me scratching my head. This video clears up some things for me. On the video why is the rider on the 54cm bike on the trainer riding it where his feet overlap the front wheel?
I came across this, since I found out, that I am "long legged" person (185 high and 93 cm inseam) But to me the suggestion of taking bigger size than prescripted seem odd... since I feel too long on bike that should be about my size ... Do you have any explanation? :o
How short is too short a stem length if the frame size down doesn’t allow for enough stack? Short legs, long torso, short arms and not 20 year old flexible.
Well after watch some other video, i went for pre bike fit as i do not buy bike yet (who is running independently) where geometry of a few bike i keen on is replicated in a retul like platform. Prior to this i went shop having retul fit and the person keep pushing me the bike based on my height and skipped my pre bike fit questions. Guess they are more keen sell the bikes. What neill said is legit as i have long leg and short body where few of bike selection sizes were more on S size on endurance bike and L size on full blown race bike. I think going pre bike fit really worth it especially one willing to splash big bucks on road bikes. Ntg beats a good fitted bike than haviny awesome bike but doesnt fit well. Its pity bike shop locally dont have test bike. In fact test bike concept doesn't exist here. Hence pre bike fit is much more important.
11:45 I'm this rider (German/Finnish tho not asian) with short legs and long torso but I strongly disagree with the advice to go with a smaller size. You can always lower the bars with a negative stem, but you need the reach to maintain a good weight balance. I'm 6'1" but my femurs are very short. So I have found my best fit on a bike that has ~440mm reach, generally with 76⁰ seat angle (short femurs). Generally 140mm stem to account for my long arms. everything but my femurs is sized for someone who is 6'4" lol.
If my seat is right at the back and stem tipped right down/negative in order for my reach to be long enough-does that mean frame size/top tube is too small? I know you said get a lazier seat tube but the bike is 48cm and I’m 175cm tall so it seems really unlikely it’s the right size frame. Help!
I'm still not sure how you're supposed to figure out on your own what the right dimensions are short of trial and error on literally every possible combination of part sizes.
I’m a 5”10 female with long legs and a relatively shorter body. I ride a 56 Specialized Diverge and have always felt it’s too big! I’ve had to shorten the stem and fit a zero offset seat post to be more comfortable. I’m looking to buy a road bike and was recently in Sigma Sports. I was told I should be looking at a 58 or 60?! I’m so confused?! 😕
I'm very surprised at the dismissal of stack and reach. They're much better measurements than effective top tube and head tube which don't account for angles of the headset and seatpost. Bonkers! He talks about trigonometry...all that is removed with stack and reach.
Iam 189cm, i need a XL Merida Scultura but i like the Giant Defy Advanced 2 and iam not sure which size of Giant i need L or XL ? iam really confused :( :D
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You don't realize all the science behind fittings until you listen to this genius.
It's so great to learn this to inform your next decisions!
-RCA Team
I am currently battling with my bike shop about the frame size i need for my new bike, which is ridiculous on it’s own. I am 53 and i am Cycling my whole life and my current bike fit is perfect. They just refuse to extrapolate to the new frame. 52 ? Nah… We’ll not be going near it !
My legs are shorter and my torso is longer than ‘average’. So THANK YOU for stating the obvious to me, apparently not obvious to them, to go for one size, or even two sizes smaller.
They said that they won’t even consider that without their 250€ bike fit…. Nuts !! I already am in my preferred posture and I don’t have injuries and I don’t need to go faster or more aerodynamic either.
Go to another bike shop ! Well… Specialized has cut out many smaller dealers so this shop is all we have within 100 km 😂
THANKS AGAIN ! This ups my confidence a lot !
Topic more important than ever in 2023 not only for comfort and enjoyment but also avoiding potentially very expensive mistake of wrong frame size and geometry. For my first road bike 12 + yrs ago went one size too big on poor advice, made it work but always a less than ideal compromise. Curious how many others experienced similar ? . Great advice fella’s every point a gem . Will save many a lot of pain in all sorts of ways . Chapeau to both ⭐⭐
Got my first roadbike in a local bikeshop run by 2 ex racers … the spared around 3 hours for me, I tried the 2 sizes with some changes and decided for the smaller one … was the right decision and will always going back to them rather then to big chain stores … btw it was a beginner bike with low spec FSA-Sora but they considered this sale as important as if it was a full spec bike … kudos to local bike shops ❤ (zanolini 4 ever)🎉
Cam & Neill...dynamic duo. The videos have really helped. From going to shorter cranks to adjusting the fit. Really getting lots of useful information from you both. Keep it coming!!
Great stuff Manny, thanks cor sharing. Cam
Thanks to both of you guys for putting out OUTSTANDINGLY helpful videos. I'm a short-leg, long-torso myself and I've been pondering this exact issue for months (especially since we can't test ride bikes in Sydney at the moment!) until I found this video. Great work
Cheers mate, appreciate that! Cam
The value of these videos with Neil is Priceless! Thank you.
Another sensational presentation with some great content guys. Thanks Cam for organising this session with Neal.
Hi from the uk. Another great video thanks Cam. Had a bike fit last year on my road bike as part of the process of getting a steel gravel bike built. Absolutely blown away by the complexity of frame geometry and how a small adjustment in one area has implications elsewhere. It a fascinating process and I learned so much. I’d recommend it to anyone looking for a new bike or getting one built.
I have a long torso short legs ratio and am so happy that I went a size down. 20 years ago my cycling friend told me that I needed a 58, ended up on a 56 and rode it for a year or two before getting a 54 with a flipped130 stem. Also Rotated the bars down and got even lower. Super comfy and can ride all day.Very informative series btw!
Thanks for sharing on the thread James.
Really appreciate the video guys! Logical and straight forward.
Last summer I got a alloy bike with rather aggressive geometry (first road bike), started learning about geometry and fit what I could. After tweaking and trying things I am now in a comfortable and fun position, but with a 80mm stem and a spacer underneath. Now I know better to get a smaller frame next time (just one size). It is good fun to find solutions on a bike that's luckily a reasonable fit.
Great advice. Good to hear general recommendations based around different body shapes considering I'm one of those unusual types with ridiculously long legs, and a short torso for my height. Something most of these bike fit vids fail to mention.
I’m the same. Do you size up or down?
@@hjkhhjkh3635 Down usually. And just run a tall seat tube and get a longer stem to compensate.
I found a long leg/short torso advice confusing though, and certainly the opposite of my experience. Yes, I have a quite high handlebar drop, but I also can't reach very far, even though my armspan is the same as my height. I am also hyperflexible. Ended up with a 6cm stem on my first (endurance) road bike and it was still too long, especially after I found I needed 155 cranks.
Decided to buy another frame and went for a bike fit in a jig before buying. I found nearly all XS frameswould still be too long, even though they all cater for my height. Ended up with a LOOK, as it has an unsusually high head tube and short top tube. I have a 7cm stem, which makes for much better handling. Unbelievable how much comfortable road cycling became with a well fitting bike. 6h rides and no issues.
Another great video, dudes. Just one thing: reach and stack when shown in terms of frame geometry are (at least 95% of the time) relative to that same top-center of the head tube as the effective top tube, not the handlebars. So when combined with the seat tube angle (and in extreme cases, head tube angle), they give you the same information as effective top tube length and head tube length (and arguably even more accurate, since they take into account the possible differences in forks, bb drop).
Stack and reach will let you know very quickly if the frame you're looking at is in the ballpark to fit you.
If you've got a 50mm stack of spacers and the bike you're lusting after has a stack 20mm lower, then youre SOL
Thank you Neiill and Cam!
Ive avoided bike fitters all my life but Id give Neil my business if i make it to Oz. Great video.
Yes, turns out it's always been as complicated as I always thought it was. Sometimes it was difficult to convince some of my friends that they might enjoy cycling, but then having done so, it's been even harder to convince them to avoid buying a poor-fitting bike.
Watched this after purchasing, but it matches with my experience. Short legs, long torso (really long arms): got an Emonda (H1.5 fit) in a size down from Trek's suggestion. Dropping spacers every couple rides as I get used to the new position.
Not sure if I am early (uk), or this was a different upload time to the norm. Great video either way.
A very interesting and informative video. I have been riding bikes for over 30 years and at 6' 4" have always been firmly recommended 60cm frames by manufacturers' websites and I'm not between sizes either. I don't think I am abnormally proportioned in any way but have come to realise that a 60cm frame is too big for me so stepped down to a 58cm Cannondale Synapse for my latest bike which fits me a lot better. It's not just that it's an endurance geometry either because I have previously had 60cm endurance geometry frames that were way too big for me. The problem with larger bikes is they come with larger components as well, stems, cranks, bars etc.
In my opinion if you buy a bike which is too small for you, you always have room for adjustment with a longer stem, more seat post etc, but if you buy a bike which is too big then you don't want a stem much below 90mm otherwise the steering gets a bit twitchy, especially on fast descents. As Neil says, you ideally want a bike which needs a stem between say 100mm-120mm.
Amen brother! I'm 6'1" and generally look for a bike with >60cm top tube. my proportions go the other way, my current bike has a 437mm reach (140mm stem).
I need a longer stem since my arms are so long, if I had a bike that had enough reach that I could use a short stem then the wheel would be way to far in front of me for a good weight balance.
Interesting…I’m 6’5” and find that most 63cm frames are BARELY big enough for me! My handlebar drop is often a little more than I would like due to a short head tube, I need to use a 13 or 14cm stem to get proper reach, and my saddle setback is at its rearward limit to get my legs and knees in the proper position. Unlike many tall people, I am not “all leg”…rather, my legs and torso are “normal” in their proportions to each other…just a little more stretched out than in “normal”, height deficient folks. It seems that most big frames are built for people with odd proportions…I find it frustrating that smaller frames are often built “square” I.e. 58cm x 58cm, but my 63cm frames only have 60cm top tubes (or shorter!). A 62cm top tube would be great for me. I would love a custom frame, but there is the little problem of $$$$$$$!
Im 6’4” and i feel best on a 56cm endurance geometry. Have tried bigger frames and def a no for me.
@@E.T_rode_bikes_As_well Thanks for sharing, this makes me feel more secure in my purchase. I tried multiple bikes, most multiple times, and ended up as a 6’ guy on a 54cm endurance bike. This goes against all manufacturer guidelines that I’ve seen, but it just felt better than everything. I just still had a nagging feeling that I absolutely needed the recommended 58cm and was shocked I ended up on a 54.
I have seen this video now and I want to thank you. I have long legs and shorter arms and always bought an XL and always felt streched regardless of the stem size. Now, day by day of searching, and seeing your video, I understand that a shorter top tube, and a taller head tube, implying a shorter reach and taller stack would help me. And also not being at the limit of a range. Becausr I tried L size bike and rise up the saddle and I am reaching low and my neck is tilted and hurts the cervical. Just be in the middle or around it...At least I hope I understood 🙂 I just want no more pain 🙂 l want a gravel, but I think Endurance road bike is the answer. For the gravel, I have an MTB, L one and it feels great.
Lol, my first road bike was the Allez 😂. Loved it 👍
Mine was the Allez sprint, at 55 years young. Bought used and inexpensive as my 1st roadie.. long legs, short torso, not flexible.. 6ft and tweaked a 58 to make it fit.
Brilliant video guys. I learnt so much. Thank you👍🏽👍🏽
This was possibly the best and most informative video that I have seen on RUclips! And I’m not even looking for a new road bike!!
haha, cheers mate.
My bike fitter wanted me to go up a size with a short stem. I hated it, went a frame down and went to a 130 stem and I can ride 6 hrs no problem. Neil is spot on. I'm short legs and long torso.
Thanks for sharing on the thread Justin
Another great edition in getting the most out of your bike riding. So much quality advice. Can't go wrong on bike purchase n + 1 with this one. Thank you Cam & Neill
13:58 Thanks for describing me LOL
Agree that the seat angle is important, but other than that I would deem stack and reach more important than ETT and headtube length. You cannot just compare head tube length for example without factoring in the position of the bottom bracket relative to it.
Good info here. I fit the SE asian genotype and this is spot on. I started on an Allez Sprint, which was too aggressive with the short head and top tube. I had to put a 130mm stem to get the cockpit correct. My seat was also pushed all the way forward on the 20* offset seatpost. According to Specialized's size chart, I was inbetween a size 54 and 52; I went with the 52. I recently swittched over to the new Trek emonda (52cm) and it fits sooooo much better. The top tube is 1cm longer; I switched over to a 5* offset seatpost; and the bar has an added 2cm in reach. I'm using all the spacers, but thhe fit and feel is so much more comfortable, which in turn has made me faster, and my lower back is no longer sore from riding!
Thanks for sharing on the thread mate
Tq guys. The torso-legs variable is very enlightening..validates my decision to go one size smaller when i bought a bike recently.
Cracking info, Cheers, mate!
Marvelous video gents. Comprehensive and easy to understand the facts within
Thanks for the great comment James!
-RCA Team
Reach and stack are useful IMO to compare frames esp if you have a fit that works for you and you want to find another like it .
Long legs short torso problem here. Go up a size to increase the head tube height reducing drop to bars invariably results in a longer TT. I usually end up on 70-80mm stems. With the current trend in endurance bikes things are getting better for my body type. That, said I don't want to spend more money on new frame which will invariably mean an upgrade to new disc wheelsets. I've had my fill of spending thousands on bikes over the decades. That said old age will probably force me into it in the not to distant future 😂🤣
Thanks for sharing on the thread mate.
This is surprisingly great general advice, surprising because bike fit is a very difficult thing to quickly summarize due to the high number of variables.
This is probably the most informative video on bike fit on the internet. I’d add to think about what kind of riding you want to do and for how long. Do you want a bike for 30k crit races or 300k sportive endurance rides?
Good video, very interesting listening to what Neil had to say. If i was looking for a new bike would definitely like to use his services to identify where i should be looking for my next bike. Australia though is a long way to go from the UK.
Super video again. I have learned a lot. Thanks. Next time I buy a new bike I dont only look for reach and stack 😉
Great video. Learnt a lot.
Hopefully I can get to Neil in the next couple of months for a fit.
Great info, particularly the over reliance on stack and reach as metrics. Food for thought...👌
Great , informative content gentleman ‼
Neal does a wonderful, yet simple explanation on how numerous variables need to be addressed to determine the optimized size frame for the INDIVIDUAL rider .
Those small adjustments and variables have a HUGE impact on riding nor just more comfortably , but more efficiently and effectively
Thanks for making these videos Cam (and Neil). I'm 5'9 with a 84cm inseam which is more average for someone 6ft and above so what Neil was saying about going up a size really made sense. I was recommended a 52cm and then a 54cm size frame and I've never quite been able to get comfortable on either even after several bike fits. By the time I set my correct saddle height the bars are way too low for me and I get too much pressure on my hands. A lot of bike fitters I feel are ex amateur racers and so hesitate to recommend larger sizes. I was well on my way to giving up road cycling but I've just purchased a 56cm Specialized allez frame and can't wait to give it one last shot.
A logic behind that is that with a shorter frame your handlebars are lower but also less far away, evening out the difference. But 52 seems a bit too small. With 56 you’ll probably need a short stem like 80mm, but I anyways don’t understand what some people have against short stems. I’m 5‘11 with 88cm inseam and currently ride a size 56 (not specialized) with something like 15cm bar drop
I'm surprised the 54 cm frame was not comfortable. I am 1m79 with an inseam of 82 cm and i was going to pick a 54 cm frame for a cannondale optimo bike, then the shopkeeper told me 56 would be better due to my inseam. So i did like he advised. When i trier the bike i had a lot of difficulty getting on top of the pedal to push, because the saddle tube has a setback of 15 mm. So i had to change the tube. Now it's a bit better but i feel like i wanna move the saddle still a bit forward. So for this type of frame and original saddle tube the 54 would have been better for me i guess.
When you try to up your cadence do you feel comfortable and in control of your pedal strokes ?
So much depth to his knowledge
Dudeeee, love the timestamps. Would be great to have this moving forward, not sure how much of a hassle it would be though.
Thanks for that feedback Earl, it ca be done for most vids with Neill.
Another quality conversation.Cheers
Brilliant video guys
All good Cam...just checked the geo chart for the Factor and the 54 will fit me nicely. Still on track to buy once youre done with it :-)
haha! Nice
Great Video that I wish was available so many years ago when getting into the sport & even 6 years ago when a Bike Shop recommended a Frame too large. Such a contrast to a LBS Manager / salesperson who asks how tall you are(it still goes on at multiple shops) and does not consider anything else (Torso vs Leg length, Arm Length, Flexibility, Physical Issues, etc). The suggestion for Test / Demo rides is spot on. Giant used to do Demo days where they brought a big truck to a Dealer / Event / etc and You could test various models / sizes. More Recently, I even rented a Bike I was interested in from a Bike Rental place more geared to Tourists but had some nice Road Bikes too. Gives You a longer time to really feel the bike. Some Bike shops might also be able to do a Demo bike for a day or two. Distributor might be a source too.
The time & a few $$ spent up front will save all sorts of frustration, pain & big $$$ if You get the wrong size Frame. Not to mention the lost joy of riding something that is not ideal. Thanks Neill & Cam.
Great vid, I've got a Trek DS 1 and looking for my first road bike, as someone who's only 156cm with short legs, it's not easy to get it right.
I usually use stack, reach and seattube angle because all three of those measurements are relative to the bb which is fixed position. Steering tube height should not be used because it doesn’t consider the bb drop which also influences the saddle vs bar height.
@Jerome Bergeron, as a criterium bike racer, the height of the headtube is very important to me. If the headtube is too tall, I won’t be able to have the bars low enough to get into an aero position in the drops.
Thanks for sharing Jerome.
Great video, thanks.
9:42 The seat tube angle is easy to measure with an inclinometer app on a phone.
Good tip, thanks for sharing.
Excellent video gents 👏👏👏
Going to a bike fitter would have probably been a great investment, even if it costs more up front. I am on my third road bike in 2 years, to finally get the fit right. I am 6`3 with long legs and short arms. When I bought my first bike the guy just looked at me, measured my legs and put me on a 62 frame. That was wayyyy to large. I ended up swapping to a mountainbike stem and short reach handlebars, but it was still too long. Second bike was a 59, but in the end it was still too long and also too low, because it wasn't endurance geometry anymore. Now I am on a 56 very relaxed short reach and high stack endurance bike with a 50mm stem and 38cm bars with 70mm reach and can finally comfortably ride long distances. Looking at the bike you'd think I'd have an almost upright position, but it is more agressive than some of my friends are on their race bikes. I call it the T-Rex bike fit ;)
Neill is sooooo eloquent; great topic you touched on, since I am always kind of running between sizes. For my Canyon bikes e.g. I did opt for a L size frame (I do fall somewhat between their L and XL bracket) which leaves me probably at some restricted options with regard to adjustability - but I do feel comfortable on the bikes, no doubt. For my next purchase I will definitely review this video and do proper research prior committing. Thanks guys!
Agreed Christiane! And thanks for sharing on the thread. Cam
got similarities with Neill, got long leg, slender body, narrow sit bone heel dropper..
let me guess.. if we put the cleat on mid foot, therefore effectively shorten our leg, that mean we can go for "normal" size because the head tube is now within our reach.
Cam, I hope you don’t mind the lack of longitudinal and axial stiffness of the O2 VAM along the top tube just back from the headset when your stomping on the bars laying down those big sprint watts... other than that the O2 VAM is an amazing frame !
this is actually contradicting my feel for the bike completely, I'm short legs, long torso and lower racing position is giving me all sorts of aches and pains
This is great, but... what does long leg (or long torso) actually mean? I've no idea how to find out if this might apply to me! Thanks!
What stem length and frame size would you recommend for a 5 ft 9 male with an 82 cm inseam and 66cm arm length?
Dang. I wish I would have watched this video before I bought my two bikes. I'm long-torsoed/short-legged and I have to have my saddle slammed all the way forward and I still can't get far enough over my 160mm... should've gone down a size or two.
Don't worry mate, I have doe this recently myself! Cam
Get a bike fit frame selection from a reputable bike fitter in your area for all you newbies wanting to get into cycling. Its worth the investment and takes out the guess work.
Great information. One question, is there a way to mathematically determine your body type by the leg and torso measurements?
Cheers mate, and sorry not sure myself. Cam
Useful info, tnx!
What's wrong with 130mm stems?
I'm teasing. These videos are fantastic.
Lots of info👍 thanks... Sounds like the rider needs to be very honest about their capabilities.
Super useful, and just confirmed to me that I was just about to drop £3k on the wrong sized bike!
Very useful video! Unfortunately, I can't find anywhere that offers bike fit service in my region at the moment. I'm having trouble choosing the right frame size because I have a positive ape index of 184 cm and I'm 174 cm tall.
Greetings!
1:35, No the axle to crown is not from the axle to the top of the headtube.
Yeah totally stuffed that one up, I'll get Cam to edit it out lol! - Neill
The problem is I've never had a known well fitting bike in the first place! :-(
In squatting femur to tibia ratio dictates torso angle and a shorter femur produces a more upright quad dominant squat. would the extremes of this ratio influence crank size/ cleat placement
If my flexibility Is poor (i can't touch my feet i just touch my ankles) so should i use the next size option? Also my Butt Bons hurt me, what should i do?
Just wandering Neil if you could recommend a good independent bike fitter in Melbourne? Thanks
Unfortunately no one in Melbourne Dale. I've spoken with him about this before. Cam
You don't have to ignore stack/reach. You just need to also consider seat tube angle.
Everything has an effect on what you need to choose for a bike size!
-RCA Team
How do u get the ‘range’ to begin with if u don’t have a bike.
I don't really understand. I have long legs and a shorter torso and arms. Why would I choose a bigger frame? Sure...higher handelbar due to the bigger cockpit but the reach would still be too large. I always felt more comfortable on smaller frames since grabbing the Hoods on the larger frame felt unnatural long. Is there a reason, why Mr. Stanbury is recommending a larger frame for Long legs/short torso people?
I know this is an old video but what advice can you give for a guy with a height around 5'5'' and back problem not wanting to bend for long periods?
Why don't bike compnays or shops offer full bike fitting and take the cost off bike when u buy, In the UK I've not seen this offered , is it offered in AUZ
I'm at a point where I am looking to buy an e-bike (Orbea Gain). I currently ride a 59cm Bianchi Intenso and find the size and geometry suits me (I'm 6'1", 75 and fit, riding road for 35 years). Now sizing has me scratching my head. This video clears up some things for me. On the video why is the rider on the 54cm bike on the trainer riding it where his feet overlap the front wheel?
very well done
Thanks for the great comment!
-RCA Team
Possibility of doing a similar talk with tri and TT bikes?
QUALITY!!!
I came across this, since I found out, that I am "long legged" person (185 high and 93 cm inseam) But to me the suggestion of taking bigger size than prescripted seem odd... since I feel too long on bike that should be about my size ... Do you have any explanation? :o
And now I am more confused about bike fit geometry. I will leave it to a bike fitter and buy a bike off the numbers rather than what looks good 🤣
Purchasing the right bike is much harder than the right car IMHO.
Basically do a bikefit before buying a bike.....?
If you take saddle setback in consideration, stack and reach are correct measurement?
How short is too short a stem length if the frame size down doesn’t allow for enough stack? Short legs, long torso, short arms and not 20 year old flexible.
Well after watch some other video, i went for pre bike fit as i do not buy bike yet (who is running independently) where geometry of a few bike i keen on is replicated in a retul like platform.
Prior to this i went shop having retul fit and the person keep pushing me the bike based on my height and skipped my pre bike fit questions. Guess they are more keen sell the bikes.
What neill said is legit as i have long leg and short body where few of bike selection sizes were more on S size on endurance bike and L size on full blown race bike.
I think going pre bike fit really worth it especially one willing to splash big bucks on road bikes. Ntg beats a good fitted bike than haviny awesome bike but doesnt fit well.
Its pity bike shop locally dont have test bike. In fact test bike concept doesn't exist here. Hence pre bike fit is much more important.
11:45 I'm this rider (German/Finnish tho not asian) with short legs and long torso but I strongly disagree with the advice to go with a smaller size. You can always lower the bars with a negative stem, but you need the reach to maintain a good weight balance.
I'm 6'1" but my femurs are very short. So I have found my best fit on a bike that has ~440mm reach, generally with 76⁰ seat angle (short femurs). Generally 140mm stem to account for my long arms.
everything but my femurs is sized for someone who is 6'4" lol.
If my seat is right at the back and stem tipped right down/negative in
order for my reach to be long enough-does that mean frame size/top tube is too small? I know you said get a lazier seat tube but the bike is 48cm and I’m 175cm tall so it seems really unlikely it’s the right size frame. Help!
If i'm 192 CM, and 3T Exploro Team is size Large - They describe it fits 178-191 CM. Will it be too large for me? or can it be adjusted.
I'm still not sure how you're supposed to figure out on your own what the right dimensions are short of trial and error on literally every possible combination of part sizes.
I’m a 5”10 female with long legs and a relatively shorter body.
I ride a 56 Specialized Diverge and have always felt it’s too big! I’ve had to shorten the stem and fit a zero offset seat post to be more comfortable.
I’m looking to buy a road bike and was recently in Sigma Sports. I was told I should be looking at a 58 or 60?!
I’m so confused?! 😕
I'm 5 11 and I got a 54 cm orbea with 110mm stem. I too have long legs and shorter torso. Fits me like a glove. Hope this helps you.
I'm a relatively short guy. pretty much have no choice but to choose the smallest frame 😔
I have a 57cm roadie and looking at a cheap 56cm cross bike
What is the diameter of handlebar stem?
More great content guys. Well done.
I'm very surprised at the dismissal of stack and reach. They're much better measurements than effective top tube and head tube which don't account for angles of the headset and seatpost. Bonkers! He talks about trigonometry...all that is removed with stack and reach.
Brilliant!!!
Hm…. My Bike has 70 mm stem original… so what does this says about my frame?
Iam 189cm, i need a XL Merida Scultura but i like the Giant Defy Advanced 2 and iam not sure which size of Giant i need L or XL ? iam really confused :( :D