The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn’t. By subtracting where it is from where it isn’t, or where it isn’t from where it is - whichever is greater - it obtains a difference or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviation to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is, to a position where it isn’t, and arriving at a position that it wasn’t, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn’t, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn’t. In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn’t, the system has acquired a variation. The variation being the difference between where the missile is and where it wasn’t. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was. The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows: Because a variation has modified some of the information that the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn’t, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn’t, or vice versa. And by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn’t be and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error
Fun fact this is due to the CW (Continous Wave) function on multiple SARH missiles. The missile is looking for the active radar track of the mother jet. So when you lock onto a target the radar sends out a continous wave radar signal to the enemy jet. Then using some mathematics and the frequency of radar returns the radar is able to maintain this track. However this type of tracking is prone to what is called Multi tracking. This is where the target is close to the ground the radar waves that barely miss the target get bounced off the Ground and reflected back which won’t confuse the Radar of the jet firing but can interfere with the seeker head of the missile which is looking for the strongest radar return. However there is a feature in real life that mitigates this entirely. In the F14 (and probably many other jets im sure but I only know for sure it’s on the F14) before launching a AIM7, the RIO has the ability to change the seeker head of the AIM7 from CW Function to PD Function. Which changes the continous wave to Pulse Doppler. This pulse Doppler mode seeker would track the speed of the target relative to the ground making staying low to the ground useless, however this type of Seeker function was more prone to The Notch filter as well as sudden changes in speed from the enemy jet (like if they were to suddenly launch a missile, there is a possibility it will loose track of the target jet and go for the missile instead.)
A pulse-Doppler radar is a radar system that determines the range to a target using pulse-timing techniques, and uses the Doppler effect of the returned signal to determine the target object's velocity/closure rate. If a target is moving towards you, the returned wave signal gets compressed and is at a higher frequency that the one transmitted etc. PD radars (mostly older models) can be notched/beamed quite easily, because the illuminated target's closure rate relative to the radar approaches zero and the radar's preset analog velocity filter is unable to distinguish it from the surroundings. CW radars simply cannot be notched, because they do not posses such a filter. The RIO switches from CW to PD to filter out ground clutter. What you are describing as PD is probably MTI (Moving Target Indicator) and it basically takes many "snapshots" of the radar returns, compares them all with each other and filters out the returns that don't move. Older radars systems are quite vulnerable to multipathing, no matter the radar mode. As the name suggests, the radar waves can take multiple "paths" to and from the illuminated target: 1. Radar -> target -> radar 2. Radar -> target -> ground -> radar 3. Radar -> ground -> target -> radar I suggest you look at a graphic describing this phenomenon to make more sense of it. Particularly the second (and also kind of the third) possible path is responsible for the multipathing effect, because radar basically sees a "mirror image" of the illuminated target inside the ground. The receiver-seeker of the SARH missile sees this mirror image and flies into the ground to attempt to intercept it.
Idk if this applies to war thunder but trees will improve your likely your chance of dodging radar missiles, overall any terrain increases your chances of survival EDIT: Trees and clutter do nothing
@@Mishutka_Br sorry i was told they did, i've just been misinformed, i'll edit my comment to keep more from being fed false info. i also am no where near top tier ground. thanks
It does not apply to WarThunder, because all CW guided missiles in the game have absolutely flawless clutter rejection. The reasopn flying low works is because of an effect called multipath propagation, not because of ground clutter.
its not as much based on radar strength but more ground filtering, as the F-14 AWG-9 is still the most "powerful" radar in game, however it lacks the technology of an F-16 and MiG-29 radar
Man I've tried everything since the added F16 and Fulcrum and I just can't. NOTHING seems to make it. I even hit trees and the missile hit where I exploded. It's bonkers
most likely cause its from the top the missile came from. if the missile is leveled with your plane an you dip to notch. its like almost a 90% chance that missile eats dirt lol. if the missiles is fired from a decent distance above the only chance being low has for you is the ground clutter messing up the radar lock
@@SamFagundes You made a point and it gave me an idea. Still got no clue how will it work but I guess I can try pitch up and down once I'm tracked so the missile will hit the ground trying to calculate the altitude I would be at. Still it's too OP or it used to be at update launch. Thanks for the insight.
@@Mishutka_Br wow epic content on your comment. So freaking helpful!!!!!! Wow. So you always dodge them and never ever have been killed by one of those I guess........
You can also with some practice dodge radar missiles at close ranges by luring them one direction and then switching direction and climbing great at toptier against F-15s
? Currently this tactic works against every radar and every radar missile in the game. It's slightly worse against the Phoenix since the explosive is big enough to hit you with shrapnel.
If done right you can skim 3-5 m off the water's surface at mach and get through a whole team of enemy players launching missiles at you and not have a single one hit
Its not just flying low you have to be moving toward the ground. The missile is trying to fly where you are GOING to be. It's like running to catch a baseball but ignoring the fence in front of you.
It is for early radars but the common perception is that pulse dopplers will kill you no matter how low you are, so people don’t try it in the first plade
And yet somehow I get hit by SARHs constantly while practically hugging the ground. I could be flying low enough to hit my gear on the ground if I were to extend it and somehow I still end up getting buttfucked by a SARH.
It’s likely just splash damage, the missile doesn’t have to hit you to kill you, and at such low altitude you can’t really compensate for even minor damages without hitting a tree
Props: Just do a loop Me in Su-25k: Waite till five Km pulls softly and up at 1 km push down. Also me: Wait till 3k pull hard and up then down: MiG 23: Aileron Role or Pull up This guy: Get low F-14: CHAAAAAAAFF Sea Harrier: Over G
Top tier rn has the most boring gameplay loop BECAUSE you have to fly low to avoid BVR fox 3s (which are really only phoenixs at the moment) aswell as R-27ERs
Doesn't work with: R24R, R27R/ER, Aim 7E/E-2 (if they're still burning or have their speed still), Aim 7F/M, or really any missile going at normal speed with more than 24g's of pull.
Isn’t there a way to bait them too. Like flying one way, flaring, and sharply changing direction and pitching down when the missiles is about 2-3 km away
You can notch at any altitude, but notching is to confuse pulse Doppler / phase shift based radar filters. Flying at 3/9 to a radar places your speed relative to the incoming radar at the same as the ground, causing you to be lost. Unfortunately, notching doesn’t work against some radar types. Flying fast seeks to run away faster than the missile, as the faster you go, the more energy the missile needs to get to you as you maneuver to evade. Flying low is cool as well as allowing you to shoot up, and the enemy has to use a radar mode that filters ground clutter.
When I’m high up, I just fly perpendicular, once the missile is 1.5 miles, I turn into it, once it’s 0.8 miles, I turn upside and pull as hard as my plane can. Airbrakes, cut engine, flaps, everything. I’ve dodged even Aim7ms doing this. But not Aim120s. I need to figure out a different maneuver for those lil shits🙄
Nope, in game, no matter the radar or SARH/ARH missile, it will just hit the ground. It's either a bug or a feature to prevent top tier from becoming a SARH spam fest.
I don’t dodge missiles like this cause it feels cheap, if I’m gonna dodge it imma do it properly, and if a fail so be it I hope they enjoy their well earned kill. I already fully unlocked the British tech tree so now I only play for fun
This is a perfectly valid way to dodge a missile You think if they go all the way to active radar missiles that you're gonna get the luxury of dodging it honorably? No, you get that missile off you by any means necessary
Yo I watch all ur vids Ik I’m new but that bc on my Xbox it kicks me out over and over and I gotta keep signing in and stuff I’m tired of it but hear me out man you gotta make a vid on the yak-1 2.3 USSR MAN HESR ME OUT and I swear over watch at least 95.9/ of ur vid man quiz my I’m not gonna stop asking I pls
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"The terrain will confuse his targeting system."
God that was stupid
They're moving in herds. They do move in herds.
"Do some of that pilot shit Mav"😂
just know that will not confuse a bullet😂 bullets don’t have a guidance system
@@masonagent4009common belief among su25k players that flares distract bullets 😂
Me: *Laughs in WW2 props*
Me: Laughs with my f14 in arcade
@@michagysin3082 why would u wanna play a mode with shittier flight model and rewards
@@mil-mi24hind Because the rdar and missiles are much better
@@mil-mi24hind it’s fun
Same
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn’t. By subtracting where it is from where it isn’t, or where it isn’t from where it is - whichever is greater - it obtains a difference or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviation to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is, to a position where it isn’t, and arriving at a position that it wasn’t, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn’t, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn’t. In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn’t, the system has acquired a variation. The variation being the difference between where the missile is and where it wasn’t. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was. The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows: Because a variation has modified some of the information that the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn’t, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn’t, or vice versa. And by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn’t be and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error
I read the whole thing and understood only 5% of it
The normal people don't understand😂😂 Great effort😂
Don't question the missile guide system y mf or I will show you why healthcare in USA isn't free
PL-2 missiles: nah
Shut up
Fun fact this is due to the CW (Continous Wave) function on multiple SARH missiles. The missile is looking for the active radar track of the mother jet. So when you lock onto a target the radar sends out a continous wave radar signal to the enemy jet. Then using some mathematics and the frequency of radar returns the radar is able to maintain this track. However this type of tracking is prone to what is called Multi tracking. This is where the target is close to the ground the radar waves that barely miss the target get bounced off the Ground and reflected back which won’t confuse the Radar of the jet firing but can interfere with the seeker head of the missile which is looking for the strongest radar return.
However there is a feature in real life that mitigates this entirely. In the F14 (and probably many other jets im sure but I only know for sure it’s on the F14) before launching a AIM7, the RIO has the ability to change the seeker head of the AIM7 from CW Function to PD Function. Which changes the continous wave to Pulse Doppler. This pulse Doppler mode seeker would track the speed of the target relative to the ground making staying low to the ground useless, however this type of Seeker function was more prone to The Notch filter as well as sudden changes in speed from the enemy jet (like if they were to suddenly launch a missile, there is a possibility it will loose track of the target jet and go for the missile instead.)
Thanks for genuinely explaining it ❤
This feature is in war thunder: Any radar missile with "Look down: head-on" has that feature, and won't be as easily defeated by flying low.
A pulse-Doppler radar is a radar system that determines the range to a target using pulse-timing techniques, and uses the Doppler effect of the returned signal to determine the target object's velocity/closure rate. If a target is moving towards you, the returned wave signal gets compressed and is at a higher frequency that the one transmitted etc.
PD radars (mostly older models) can be notched/beamed quite easily, because the illuminated target's closure rate relative to the radar approaches zero and the radar's preset analog velocity filter is unable to distinguish it from the surroundings.
CW radars simply cannot be notched, because they do not posses such a filter. The RIO switches from CW to PD to filter out ground clutter.
What you are describing as PD is probably MTI (Moving Target Indicator) and it basically takes many "snapshots" of the radar returns, compares them all with each other and filters out the returns that don't move.
Older radars systems are quite vulnerable to multipathing, no matter the radar mode. As the name suggests, the radar waves can take multiple "paths" to and from the illuminated target:
1. Radar -> target -> radar
2. Radar -> target -> ground -> radar
3. Radar -> ground -> target -> radar
I suggest you look at a graphic describing this phenomenon to make more sense of it.
Particularly the second (and also kind of the third) possible path is responsible for the multipathing effect, because radar basically sees a "mirror image" of the illuminated target inside the ground. The receiver-seeker of the SARH missile sees this mirror image and flies into the ground to attempt to intercept it.
Idk if this applies to war thunder but trees will improve your likely your chance of dodging radar missiles, overall any terrain increases your chances of survival
EDIT: Trees and clutter do nothing
So "the terrain will confuse his targeting system"
Trees cant do anything with radar. In war thunder any radar can track THROUGH the trees. You can easily check that out with any spaa
@@Mishutka_Br sorry i was told they did, i've just been misinformed, i'll edit my comment to keep more from being fed false info. i also am no where near top tier ground. thanks
@@Mishutka_Br also i said "idk if this applies to war thunder"
It does not apply to WarThunder, because all CW guided missiles in the game have absolutely flawless clutter rejection. The reasopn flying low works is because of an effect called multipath propagation, not because of ground clutter.
the missile no longer knows where it is
The good ole days
All you have to do now is the 3-9, no biggie
One caviate to this is that some of the stronger radars like the mig29 can ignore the ground tactic unless you’re flying town towards it
its not as much based on radar strength but more ground filtering, as the F-14 AWG-9 is still the most "powerful" radar in game, however it lacks the technology of an F-16 and MiG-29 radar
Yeah my R27-ER does not care how close to the ground you are.
pretty realistic at least, lots of modern fighters with larger radars don't care how low you are. especially the F-15E's radar
@@pocketwingmanthe f15s radar DEFINITELY cares my missiles eat dirt half the time
@@theperson5185 the F-15A and E use different radars, I referenced the F-15E
Me personally I click what I called "Ese" on your keyboard and then I will click "Leave game" work 100% of the time if you're quick enough.
too scared to admit defeat?
**Gets killed by AA**
You have to be REALLY bad to get killed by AA in Air RB
Man I've tried everything since the added F16 and Fulcrum and I just can't. NOTHING seems to make it. I even hit trees and the missile hit where I exploded. It's bonkers
Massive skill issue
skill issue
most likely cause its from the top the missile came from. if the missile is leveled with your plane an you dip to notch. its like almost a 90% chance that missile eats dirt lol. if the missiles is fired from a decent distance above the only chance being low has for you is the ground clutter messing up the radar lock
@@SamFagundes You made a point and it gave me an idea. Still got no clue how will it work but I guess I can try pitch up and down once I'm tracked so the missile will hit the ground trying to calculate the altitude I would be at. Still it's too OP or it used to be at update launch. Thanks for the insight.
@@Mishutka_Br wow epic content on your comment. So freaking helpful!!!!!! Wow. So you always dodge them and never ever have been killed by one of those I guess........
I know this is at least some what realistic but FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Depends on the missile IRL. I think Skyflash was rated for as low as 50m.
Hey you finally found the Multipath system exist
It is what I do with my f-5
Me too
As a Swede I’ve learned to use terrain because until the very high tiers we kinda countermeasure deficient
Well flying low or diving when it launches because then it leads your pos which will be in the ground
You can also with some practice dodge radar missiles at close ranges by luring them one direction and then switching direction and climbing great at toptier against F-15s
*Top Gun Maverick intensifies*
Did no one else seem to realize he was at a 90 degree angle and chaffed 💀 but the going low technique does work in real life
This is quite a basic move thats used by many. And yes that map is perfect for doing this. Ten thousandth like btw
Ace Combat: *Just do some sick manuevers*
Mti on the R23R and R24R doesn’t care how low you are.
It does care about chaff though, man the MLD is hell
Dont lie. No radar can track that low
? Currently this tactic works against every radar and every radar missile in the game. It's slightly worse against the Phoenix since the explosive is big enough to hit you with shrapnel.
i learned that from top gun maverick baby
this is why i only bring a gun on my f4j no sparrows or sidewinders (im literally insane)
you can also do barrel rolls (NOT AILERON ROLLS) and dodge every sparrow, will not work on the er mind you
Fun fact top gun 2 teaches you this
If done right you can skim 3-5 m off the water's surface at mach and get through a whole team of enemy players launching missiles at you and not have a single one hit
Bro uses the best skin
All fun in games until the missile gains full awareness of the terrain
You can also go defensive but mostly works in the f-16
well, this got outdated now... sad noises...
No?
Proceeds to flare
Its not just flying low you have to be moving toward the ground. The missile is trying to fly where you are GOING to be. It's like running to catch a baseball but ignoring the fence in front of you.
I thought this was commons knowledge?
same
maybe it's for Lev 12 pay to win victims.
@@meepy2739 Maybe, although i think half of the top tier players hug the ground necause everyone is doing it, and it must be for a reason.
It is for early radars but the common perception is that pulse dopplers will kill you no matter how low you are, so people don’t try it in the first plade
@@jakes.4147Dont lie. PD wont help with that low flying. It WILL track tho, but rocket wont hit the target
And yet somehow I get hit by SARHs constantly while practically hugging the ground. I could be flying low enough to hit my gear on the ground if I were to extend it and somehow I still end up getting buttfucked by a SARH.
It’s likely just splash damage, the missile doesn’t have to hit you to kill you, and at such low altitude you can’t really compensate for even minor damages without hitting a tree
If only top tier was like this still 😞😞
In a pinch yes. You still risk explosion damage.
me: *dies to missiles which DECIDE to descent from space and cruise along the ground*
Aged like milk with Fox3s
I can’t in a tornado IDS , and idk why it sets at 11.3 in air RB
flying lower to the ground removes half of your maneuvers
Props: Just do a loop
Me in Su-25k: Waite till five Km pulls softly and up at 1 km push down.
Also me: Wait till 3k pull hard and up then down:
MiG 23: Aileron Role or Pull up
This guy: Get low
F-14: CHAAAAAAAFF
Sea Harrier: Over G
Top tier rn has the most boring gameplay loop BECAUSE you have to fly low to avoid BVR fox 3s (which are really only phoenixs at the moment) aswell as R-27ERs
Meanwhile he chaff flares the first missile
Laughing in r27er1
Dawg you got a link to gaijin store the day after I bought ge (prem time)
I just fly straight at it, then turn right before it hits me.
Good luck with R-27 🤡
Doesn't work with: R24R, R27R/ER, Aim 7E/E-2 (if they're still burning or have their speed still), Aim 7F/M, or really any missile going at normal speed with more than 24g's of pull.
I use this method myself, but fsr, it only smashes the ground if it's a SARH, whenever it's a Phoenix, it goes right over my head
For phoenix you have to maneuver a little because it has so much tnt it can hit near you and the explosion will splash on you
Isn’t there a way to bait them too. Like flying one way, flaring, and sharply changing direction and pitching down when the missiles is about 2-3 km away
Wont help with R-27
I try this / don't work plus what if you got 5 different jets shooting it hard to do anything
Wait a minute, isn't notching the same thing as putting the missile at your 3/9o'clock, goes as fast as possible, and fly REALLY low?
You can notch at any altitude, but notching is to confuse pulse Doppler / phase shift based radar filters. Flying at 3/9 to a radar places your speed relative to the incoming radar at the same as the ground, causing you to be lost. Unfortunately, notching doesn’t work against some radar types. Flying fast seeks to run away faster than the missile, as the faster you go, the more energy the missile needs to get to you as you maneuver to evade. Flying low is cool as well as allowing you to shoot up, and the enemy has to use a radar mode that filters ground clutter.
Yeah the missile lead itself into the ground
When I’m high up, I just fly perpendicular, once the missile is 1.5 miles, I turn into it, once it’s 0.8 miles, I turn upside and pull as hard as my plane can. Airbrakes, cut engine, flaps, everything. I’ve dodged even Aim7ms doing this. But not Aim120s. I need to figure out a different maneuver for those lil shits🙄
Okay, now how do I dodge these missles if them are coming from behind
If its radar - same
If they are coming top down like exactly top down then that wont work.
Doesn’t work if the missile top downing you
no shit.
How to turn on this green square on it?
How can you tell the difference between the missiles?
can u pls make video how to dodge Sarh missles without using ground (im mean on altitude)
Fly 90° to the missile and chaff. That's all
@@savageontkl yeah. now i know. also its not all. BVR is a little more complicated
@@TysiekFox in warthunder there is not much more than that tbh
@@savageontkl turning 180* froom time to time. also if u giude a rocket u are restricted to radar gimbal
@TysiekFox turning 180° is called "going cold," which is almost never used unless in a fox 3 fight
That map is not flat
Yeah but I see players dodge in mid air doing perfectly nothing with a perfect lock and the missile just miss
thats just literally notching but using the ground clutter which is clutter notching from the ground...
Multiple interference technique. MIT. It's more notching than dodging tho
Does it work with R-27ER
This only works if your enemy doesn't have PD radar...
No. It works with every missile
It is an irl problem with the missiles targeting system it has nothing to do with the radar
Nope, in game, no matter the radar or SARH/ARH missile, it will just hit the ground. It's either a bug or a feature to prevent top tier from becoming a SARH spam fest.
I don’t dodge missiles like this cause it feels cheap, if I’m gonna dodge it imma do it properly, and if a fail so be it I hope they enjoy their well earned kill. I already fully unlocked the British tech tree so now I only play for fun
Average British cuckold
This is a perfectly valid way to dodge a missile
You think if they go all the way to active radar missiles that you're gonna get the luxury of dodging it honorably? No, you get that missile off you by any means necessary
Ok but with who button we can do flares to doge a missle
flares don't stop radar missiles ...
Ik I dont question do they stop I wanna know the button for the flares
Orrrr gaijn could idkk fix chaff
This does not work for me, they still hit
Chaff doesn't do shit even if you're flying perpendicular to the enemy
Doesn’t work if it was top down
“Dodging missile” literally didnt dodge it, it just failed to hit
Nothing exactly what they did in top gun Maverick.
How do you know it's a radar missle
If it is front aspect from long range, it’s almost certainly a radar missile, also ur RWR will have a stroke if you got radar locked
why
Hahahah R-27ER1 go wroom wroom
Works against that aswell. Just alot harder since it's so fast that you don't have time to react.
laughs in aim 9m
you still flared
Yo I watch all ur vids Ik I’m new but that bc on my Xbox it kicks me out over and over and I gotta keep signing in and stuff I’m tired of it but hear me out man you gotta make a vid on the yak-1 2.3 USSR MAN HESR ME OUT and I swear over watch at least 95.9/ of ur vid man quiz my I’m not gonna stop asking I pls
This obviously only works against enemy aircraft without Puls Doppler radar. Because those usually have look down/shoot down capabilities.
joob short
Not as fun though
What's a SARH missile?
Semi active radar homing
Mig 29 and f16: laughs in Pulse Dopler
Everyone knows
"-on a map like this because it's really flat" LIKE YOUR MOM!!!
LMAO THATS ME, Retro_Boss08
Been doing that bombing bases. Big help 😆
F4 is bad, f 16 and f 14 are much better
No shit
lol bs
Note: this does not work against MiG-23 users. Russian bias moment.
It does work even better. They only got a src radar