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Musings on The Empire Strikes Back
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- Опубликовано: 8 окт 2021
- Less than an analysis, more like a collection of thoughts on the film often considered in light of other works.
See more videos at sfdebris.com
This was like listening to a sermon you agree with in church. The Church of the Original Trilogy. Nice work.
_"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter!"_
Words like those will never be spoken again in our lifetimes.
Far too "popular" these days to tear us down, make the greatest of us just crude matter. Give us nothing to aspire to.
Agreed, the old movies have a kind of magic and mysticism, an appeal to the audience that they should not be obsessed with material things and instead improve their own temperament. The new trilogy is crass, souless and materialistic.
Like its creators
In the book Annakin echoes those words after Luke removes his helmet, for a moment thinking the tears in Luke's eyes are for hideous he had become. I kind of wish they'd kept them in the script.
@@lynngreen7978 Only when one deliberately ignores the actual intent of a maker and replace with the most bad faith interpretation of their work. Because its also far too popular these days to mistake misary and cynicism for wisdom and insight, like they were still a fithteen years old..
Wrath of Khan could be accused of trying to "tear us down" and it be just as incorrect.
The Church of the Algorithm gives this video its blessing, and must it stay clear of the blasphemers from The First Algorithmic Temple (and the many people impersonating their members).
I like how they’re basically wearing their OG outfits from the first movie at the end
Luke runs out of the cave, deeply disturbed. He sees Yoda, and yells, "I'm a clone!"
"Feeds upon your rage, the dark- wait, what?"
"Darth Vader was in the cave! I killed him, but he had my face! I'd always suspected I was a clone, but to find out like this!"
"... you nerf herder."
lmao!!!
3 of the greatest "Sci-fi" film sequels came in the eighties. Empire Strikes Back, Star Trek 2-TWoK, and Aliens. All three took big risks in deviating from their originals. Empire was much darker and turned every bit of heroism you could depend on in the original on its head and made it work against the heroes. The Wrath of Khan abandoned pomp and effects for story, characters and a much smaller budget...hoping that art truly thrives in limitations. Aliens turned a sci-fi horror movie into a space action movie...and turned Ripley from a pilot into a female action hero (and a kick ass one at that.) Aliens and Empire turned great movies into franchises, TWoK saved a franchise from itself.
There's a certain irony to Chuck still holding on to his proposed alternate ending to Contradiction about Jenks still holding on to the death of his son.
I just clapped.
This video is truly inspired, well-written, and a work of art.
When you started talking about the detective story and complexity I said thought, "Where is he going with this...?" (suspiciously). Perfect example to make your point.
The "I know" line is one where my understanding changed as I matured. As a kid and into my 20s I thought it was a snarky, arrogant line. Then watching again when I was in my 30s I understood it as a guy with a cocky personality who doesn't show serious emotions acknowledging a mutual love in the only way he could (at that time).
Could be interpreted even as him pitying that fact, since what's about to happen to him will hurt her
At some point though making a plot more complex becomes plot inbreeding. Leia becoming Luke’s Sister might have tied up loss ends, but it begins to threaten suspense of disbelief. It also leads to questions. Worse is throwing the Droids into the prequel in the way it was done.
At some point stringing together character connections after the fact (retconning) weakens a story.
Imagine if April O’Neal was the owner of the the pet turtles before their mutation? It would be cheesy.
She actually kinda was, in the IDW comics, and to be honest it was fine.
At some point Lucas said R2-D2 and C-3PO would be the only characters to appear in all nine films, this was before it became all six films.
Leia as Luke's sister is ROTJ's worse move. I used to think it was the Ewoks, then doing the Death Star again, but no...Leia. I mean, Vader is in direct contact with her a few times and never feels a damned thing.
I understood the whole 'complex/complicated' relation entirely differently: that something 'complex' was made of many interconnected parts, all of which are necessary, while 'complicated' was _unnecessarily_ complex, to the point where stripping out unneeded parts was needed to make the remainder work or be understood. The word 'complicated' has always been framed as a negative trait in my life, so it's really interesting to hear it described in this video as the reverse of how I was taught.
Just something that stuck in my brain watching this.
Complex is a mechanical watch.
Complicated is a Rube Goldberg machine.
@@hariman7727 Exactly, hence why this video confused me so much. I can't square the words he's used with what the words mean in my head.
@@Vespuchian I am confused. You were right all along. That's the way he also described it in the video. I don't understand why you think he said the opposite.
Sad that Empire showed that Star Wars could be more than it had been, only to see that little more was done with that potential.
This sort of analysis is one of my favorite parts of SFDebris.
It's interesting watching this after playing Metroid: Dread for 2 days. A story series that is told with little to no dialogue.
The Empire Strikes Back is such a great story that it's told excellently with nothing but dialogue. The radio drama for Empire is amazing.
Honestly? Given how many pieces of the overarching story of both the OT and the Prequels fit together so well, I think its actually more amazing that Lucas DIDN'T plan it all out in advance, but rather more or less made it up as he went
the 'modern films do not fit at all except in the deluded minds of blind fanboys
@@johnspencer3994 I said 'Prequels', not 'Sequels'
Just when I thought there could be no more star wars videos, thank you.
Leia: "I love you."
Han: "Again."
Takes me on an emotional journey just like the films did
The Vader is Anakin twist is the Rose Quartz is Pink Diamond twist of its time
Only it’s better
8:28 Old Anakin! YAY!!!
I wonder if Chuck will do these kind of musings on other movies. Even if only in Star Wars, for I'm interested in what he has to say about The Last Jedi, which basically polarized fans like The Empire Strikes Back did when it first came out in 1980.
It's probably best to stay away from it, it's not really possible to have a civil discussion about it on the internet even though at the end of the day it's a Disney Star Wars movie. A lot of people I like liked the Last Jedi, I kind of WANTED something to turn the tables, but like... this wasn't it. But it's kind of difficult to talk about it because a lot of the louder haters actually are really disgusting racists and the defenders will use that to assign motivation and not listen to criticism even when some of that criticism also involves discomfort in how Finn was treated (And now John Boyega supports that and has come out with being unsatisfied with his role in TLJ, but a lot of the defenders just ignored fans who felt poorly about that at the time). And even as someone who didn't like the movie, I still can agree with what some of the likers liked about it (Shrieking Shack and A More Civilized Age are two podcasts from that side, but Shrieking Shack did say the same thing: They had criticism but they're not touching this), I just did not think the movie achieved that at all for me. Basically... Chuck's been through enough shit and I don't want him to get any attention from any corner of the internet that's still talking about the Last Jedi at this point. Last Jedi Discourse is in the past, and at least that part of the past I'm fine with allowing it to die or killing it if I have to.
I think Lucas had some idea of Vader being Anakin earlier on. When Buru says, "[Luke]'s not a farm boy...he has too much of his father in him", Owen replies, "THAT'S what I'm afraid of". It's a second-viewing Easter egg, like Switch calling Neo "Copper Top" before Morpheus holds up a Duracell battery to show Neo that humans have become power cells for the machines.
And yet Lucas hates the "I know line". It's ironic that Lucas' present wife "claims" she fell for him when she first heard that line. If that's really the case then maybe she should search out Harrison Ford rather than the emotionless King of Nerds!
I love this video.
But you knew that already
25:50 I know this is nit-picking but... When Luke goes to the window/view screen and stands next to Leia I have always felt he should have placed his left (real ) hand on her shoulder, then spent a second or two flexing his new (artificial) hand before turning to look out the window. I had a bad tooth fixed and my tongue wouldn't let that changed tooth alone for days no matter how I tried not to; a new hand I think would take a minute or two to examine.
The sequel that made money, got good reception (from the audience, not sure what the critics say) and got some weird criticisms.
The cave comparison blew my mind.
I love The Empire Strikes Back, I think it's rightly deserving of its place atop most fan rankings. Buuuutttt... Between the original PBS Audio Adaptation of the first film and having seen the comic series "The Star Wars", which is based on earlier drafts for the storyline, I think making Star Wars a family affair ultimately made the series messier. Having the Vaders, Organas, and Skywalkers being completely separate families would have worked better back for the series, especially the prequel series.
No Vader and Luke being father an son I one thing it’s makes him stumbling onto obiwan less coincidental
But leia and the droids that was breaking things a bit
Much of what you say is why Rey's story in the Disney movies doesn't work. It's not the mary sue stink, it's there's no character arc or growth really impacted by the story she's on. It's not an unentertaining sequance of events, but it lacks the charact connection to hold them together.
Phony criticism, character growth doesn't equal good story and a flat character arc doesn't equal bad story.
Bingo. There was potential at some points, maybe an arc where Rey goes from being a loner to a team player. Or finding a new family. Or anything really that would indicate change.
The prequels struggled with this at times too.
No character arc? The core of her character arc is finding her place in the world.
She started the Force Awakens hoping that her parents, who were gone for years, would come back for her, and she has to come to terms with the fact they were never coming back. Continuing on into The Last Jedi, she is searching for someone to show her what her place is in everything. She goes as far as to go to a place strong with the Dark Side in the vain hope of seeing her parents there, hoping that who they are will reveal her place in everything, but it only shows her alone, and she has to accept what she believed at the time - that her parents were nobody, and she came from nothing.
With Rise of Skywalker, her parentage suddenly raises its head once more, she deals with her own fears over what it means for her, and she finally finds her place in the world by the end of it. Instead of letting her bloodline define her destiny, she instead rejects and destroys the legacy Palpatine wanted to force upon her, and chooses a new path.
Because, yes, that is a character arc, and there is growth.
@@Catalyst375 Yes. However...
It's handled poorly. Not to say it was written badly, because there were some competent ideas involved. (And bad ones, and bad ones, nobody assume I'm saying everything was a good idea.) But the Sequels suffered from not having a unified vision working on them. Even with the difference in directing and different tones between the OT, and similarly in the Prequels... it was still the same guy working at it.
I struggle to believe the same person sat down and worked out all three of the Sequels. There's just kind of a course-correction going on constantly to try to sway where the movies are going each time. And this filters down into a problem with pacing the plot. "The Force Awakens" is serviceable fun, and yet I walked away not thinking "this was great" but "I want to see where they go from here". "The Last Jedi" on the other hand, felt like someone chopped up two movies and tried to edit them into one. It was a little disjointed, and there were things which felt like they were rushed into not being developed for the sake of trying to get to the final sequence of scenes. There's no clear feeling of TIME PASSING, which winds up making it feel like everything takes place inside a much smaller timeframe than it probably does... or should.
I need to watch 'Rise of Skywalker' again to try to examine it deeper but it's the same thing. Revelations and plot points happen offscreen, or are rushed through, just to try to hit them in the runtime. And this was a problem in 'Revenge of the Sith' too, where it felt like there was a "missing reel" between the first third and second third of the movie. Like... information we should probably have is just not there or we're told it outright.
That's where I wind up standing on the Sequels after a few years of distance, and watching what other hands do with smaller-scale stories ("The Mandalorian" and "Rebels"). It's not that there was 'all terrible ideas', it's that the ideas ran the full spectrum of great-to-terrible - exactly as the OT did - and rushed it for no reason other than to try to make the movies fast.
They needed to spend more time planning it out before going to work. They needed one person to just be the guy handing an outline out for the whole trilogy - even if it was vague or had to be shifted about - so there wasn't a feeling of "winging it". That shit only works for Nomura.
@@Catalyst375 - No there isn't. "finding your place in the world" is the equivalent of saying someone's arc is "breathing" - it's so basic it's not even worth mentioning. Luke? Also "found his place in the world" - by becoming a Jedi. Han Solo? Same - by becoming a leader in the rebellion. What is even Rey's "place" by the end of the trilogy? Does she lead a new Jedi order? Or start something new? (no sign or even hint of her taking students or disciples) A leader of the resistance? They don't even give her a proper title or squad to lead. Does she even find a place by the side of someone as having special meaning? No, the only boy she ever kissed dies on her. She ends the trilogy as she started it: Alone in the desert. No sign that any of her discoveries or journeys have altered her character or outlook in the slightest. She would still try to help BB-8, still try to join Han, still try to save Kylo, etc etc. If the answer to "what would the girl at the end do different if she was at the beginning of the story?" is, "scratch the walls less" - that's not character growth.
Compare to the first movie. The Han we see at the start would never have turned back to help anyone. We even see it partway through the film when he is completely unwilling to go rescue Leia and has to be convinced to do so by Luke. By the end of the film, he has undergone his own growth and change and without any prompting (that we see - maybe Chewbacca gave him a nudge), he turns back and arrives in the nick of time to save Luke and the day.
Excellent, Excellent.
Good video
This should be seen by all Star Wars fans.
So what did Han do with the reward money from ANH? Why didn't he go pay Jabba?
Isn't there some dialogue in the first act that says that the reason he's leaving is to take care of his debt to Jabba? It's kind of implied that he keeps finding one excuse after another to stick with the rebels (just this _one_ last thing) before settling accounts with the Hutt.
@@boobah5643 That scene implied to me he was never going to do it until that bounty hunter on Ord Mantel made him realize he couldn't hide from it even in the Rebel Alliance. Still, I bet he didn't have most of the reward the money anymore.
25:28 you may say that it celebrates hope (eh, eh, see what I did?)
My Musing. ESB is the joy of table flipping. Every scene refutes something that happened in the original film. Destroying the Death Star was a major victory - it was a minor inconvenience to the empire. Luke being a naive farmboy - now war weary vet. Vader being a prominent well known figure in the empire - now minor figure most people haven't heard of. Jedi being warriror monks - now spiritual monks. Leia being an aggressive self reliant leader - now justa love interest.
Yes, ESB is an entertaining well made film, however it does so by flipping the table carefully set by the original film and providing very little to replace what has been lost. As someone who loves the original film I can't love this one.
Isn't Vader the reverse? In A New Hope, he's just an emissary of the Emperor (which is retcon, since the Emperor was originally conceived as just a figurehead of the military) who answers to Tarkin and is held with contempt or suspicion by other command officers. In ESB, he's like the second in command of the Empire and its military.
Contradiction talk gets a comment. Love that game.
Chuck needs to do a "The Shadows Etc" about Episodes 7-9. Here's a few things we all know about that....1. Episode 7 was receieved well, but many fans said it was too much like "A new hope", coping many of the same beats. 2. Episode 8 tore the fanbase in two. Making this situation worse, was the demonizing of the fans calling them "Bullies", "Sexists", and "bigots" for not liking characters and ideas in the movie. 3. There are TWO more cuts of Episode 9, and the studio went with the most profitable....didn't work out. 4. Merch for episodes 8 and 9 were in the toilet. This was so much of an impact, Marvel comics canceled the comic book adaption of Episode 9. 5. The mistreatment of Finn. He was built up to be someone very important and meaningful....only to be sidelined. 6. Producer Kathleen Kennedy has become the most hated person by the fans. Kennedy seems to care more about forcing her social political views in the movies than telling a good story. If anyone didn't like anything she did, she would label them as "Bullies", "Sexists", and "bigots". The fans hate her, and blame her for destroying star wars.
Spoiler Alert!!! Vader is Lukes Daddy
10 * [ Starz 4 the stupid ]
Like his Thinking...
Must have taken Psychology
In College
+
Dies NOT
DRINK Starbucks ( $ )
Like i said...he has no world building skills..he had to hire out..done son
I love a lot of your stuff, on your patreon too so I must do, so I hope you'll take this I hope respectfully conveyed rebuke as intended. That out the way, man do I despise your Contradiction theory. Hated it when you covered the game, and hate it now you've brought it up again.
It might be a failure of translation from the UK to US, and if that's the case then perhaps the well perceived contradictions are understandable. To a Brit, Contradiction deals with tropes not just familiar from old school adventure games, but countless cozy countryside set murder mysteries to be found on the Beeb or ITV often on a quiet sunday afternoon.
Procedural is something to vaguely glance at, at best, and often ignored as not interesting for the story being told. Local authorities are just not a thing. Possibly due to the remoteness of the setting, lack of need until they are needed hence an outsider being sent in, or are there to be bumbling comic relief/mildly awkward obstacles.
Making the detective mad or grieving is a fundamentally different story than the one being told of a brilliant and yet unconventional loner who gets the job done anyway despite their minor character flaws.
Maybe you like such a sad and I'd argue rather squalid tale better that such a reveal would make it. Perhaps it's more 'mature'. Personally I think that alternate take can go try buggering a hedgehog.
There's always going to be a place for lighter, cozier, and yes less challenging more familiar stories that can be enjoyed with a cuppa and some biscuits. Just because it's maybe not so complex that doesn't mean it can't still bring some enjoyment to those that like that kind of thing.
Or to put it another way to paraphase a certain oft reposted webcomic: Don't be mad at a cat just because it refuses to go 'woof' to fit your liking.
I honestly thing after the 1st third this movie is almost as bad as the phantom menace or rise of skywalker. Its nowhere near the high water mark of a new hope or the force awakens and its definitely not in the middle like revenge or attack of the clones. Its a very dull movie and it feels like little happens outside a couple of plot revelations that were done so so.
@@zemox2534 those revelations only matter in light of the next movie. This film serves as setup to that film and so as it's own thing it can be argued to be lacking.
If all you want is pew pew and explosions, play a video game. Movies require a little bit more.
congratulation on having such a nuanced opinion on the quality of Star Wars movies and expressing that even against the pressure of putting yourself into one of two or three boxes.