Off The Rails: British Rail XP64
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- Опубликовано: 1 дек 2023
- Off the Rails: A series diving into the history of lost & forgotten parts of British Rail.
A radical experimental train that was set to pave the way for the future of British Rail, or was it?
NOTE: Whilst I make every attempt to locate the source of the videos used in my videos, many are taken from other websites or RUclips videos were sources are not cited. If you are aware of the source then please do not hesitate to comment below.
Thanks for watching!
The mockup at the Design Centre was in an orange and grey livery.
The comfort of the train was light years ahead of anything built subsequently.
The 800 series trains are the ultimate "Long tube effect"
I used to train spot at Hornsey in 1964 and whilst I don't remember the xp64 coaching stock as 11 year olds were not interested in coaches, I do remember D1733 and how really amazing it looked in thr experimental blue.
Sadly BR went over oboard with blue paint and all yellow ends.
I think back in the day I was interested in anomalies like D1733 and the Midland pullman and the fact you could see foriegners at Hornsey like the class 33s pulling the blue circle cement train.
With out a doubt the Brush 4s were a very handsome engine that sounded good .
Just look at the weird looking stuff of today like the class 70s, they remind me of an express dairies milk float
2:06 That made me LOL. So funny how we were so happy to state the obvious back than and the verbal gymnastics used today to say what we're all thinking.
I'm a fat 50something man and have always found that clip funny. People need to be less sensitive.
As a young fireman I remember the loco stabled on No 1 road of Willesden shed prtor to the event at Marylebone. One of our fireman /secondman was trained on the steam boiler which was non standard to LNW lines. He acted as secondman during these exhibition trains from Marylebone. I later met him after he was a Postman meeting the NW postakl train at Watford Jn a mail set point.
It was nice to see a CL 47 as we never workled on them at willesden.
Those 'scientifically designed seats' were definitely more comfortable than the 'ergonomically designed seats' of today!
The XP64 coaches later had their folding doors replaced with mk1 type slam doors before going into general service. There were a number of mk1s in the set as no XP64 brake coaches or catering cars were built. The restaurant vehicle, no. 1991, actually survives to this day as a camping coach at Dawlish Warren..
The XP-64 set saw out its days on the Western Region on their secondary expresses until 1981 when sufficient air-braked and air-conditioned Mk2s were available thanks to the introduction of the HST that the steam heated, vacuum braked XP-64 set could be withdrawn. By this time they had be rebuilt with standard Mk1 doors in place of the German bi-fold doors they were built with. These doors were a good source of water ingress. SO 4728 and SK 25508 ended up on the NYMR and SO 4729 and FK 13408 ended up in the Dean Forest. None were rebuilt as Mk2A coaches as all Mk2 coaches are of integral design.
I remember at least one XP 64 compartment first working on Paddington-Hereford services. It was distinguishable by the corridor changing sides half way along.
Le reportage est magnifique !
You are underrated mate, you do good videos. Have a sub
Thanks! Hope you enjoyed!
The seats, windows and other detail ended up in the Mark 2 series . I was under the impression that XP64 was essentially that they were effectively the Mark 2 prototypes but constructed on mark 1 underframes and using Mark 1 components.
The real disgrace is the dreadful quality of the latest generation of rolling stock, which ignores basic user needs.
You said it! We are now riding on rolling stock with less comfort and poorer ride quality than years ago!
So, BR spent untold thousands on the XP64 program to research and experiment with aspects for the upcoming Mk.2 coaches... while simultaneously ignoring all of that research and building the Mk.2 coaches without incorporating ANY of the elements of XP64? What? Was lefty hand really completely unaware of what righty hand was doing? Surely even BR couldn't be THAT incompetent! Granted, there's some aspects of XP64 that I question: the double folding doors were an easy potential point of failure, and the fiberglass seats probably wouldn't have lasted the test of time. But what part of the story are we missing here? Why was this program so wasted?
There double folding doors look very similar to those on the German N-Wagen coaches which were developed around the same time. These coaches became the backbone of the DB single deck passenger fleet all the way into the 2010s, and are still in limited use today in Germany and widely exported.
Having worked for BR during the 70's for a short time I can assure you that BR management was that incompetent. The rest of the railway was run like it had been in the big four days!
There is a bit of the left hand not knowing what the right was doing. But the Design Panel was looking at what future coaching stock would need in terms of passenger facilities. ThecMk2 coach was basically a Mk1 coach with an integral structure and some rust/dirt traps eliminated. The Mk2A stock added features from the XP-64 such as wider vestibule at the outer ends of the coaches and better gangways between coaches. There were even designs for power operated doors for the Mk2A coaches in 1965.
Interesting videos here,so helpful for my 00 gauge railway building😊
Those wider double hinged doors look like a good idea! Would certainly have improved the mk3 stock if they'd have had them fitted, as the doors always seemed a bit narrow to me.
Not convinced ... they look bigger than Mk1 doors but Mk3 doors were significantly larger and I never saw any problems with them.
Interesting video. A shame quite a few of these coaches got preserved only to be scrapped later due to blue asbestos.
I'm not sure the air suspension ever got fitted as the set was always vacuum only so no air at all
Really good channel unusual subjects and very well presented
Cheers Russ
From what I could find one is lnown to be on the NYMR but is affected by the asbestos.
The air suspension was recorded as being the fitment in Railway Magazine July '64.
@@JackStackhouse unfortunately they were all affected by blue asbestos as were most thing of that era. I have a feeling 2 still exist. I was a shunter on the NYMR in the early 80s and remember working with them
I think you've confused brakes with suspension. The B4s fitted to the XP64 coaches had airpad suspension on the bolster instead if the normal helical springs.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 This information came directly from a multitude of Railway publications including Railway Magazine from spring/summer 1964 that had unrivaled access to the sets before their introduction.
@@JackStackhouse yes, as do the books I've got. Secondary air suspension, but vacuum brakes until withdrawal..
6:26 THANK YOU
4:21 By "long tube effect" you mean something like the British Rail Class 700?
Not to mention the truly ghastly 800 series
The livery was standard monastral blue with a pearl grey window bar.
It wasn't a 'standard' livery at the time . . .
@@EllieMaes-Grandad you must have a wonderful head of hair with that degree of hair splitting. You can call the new livery the new standard as it had been adopted as the new normal.
THE REALITY WITH XP64 & THE THEN NEW B4 BOGIE
The Programme Commentary is nonsense. The XP64 set (meaning Experimental Prototype 1964) were simply rebuilt Mk1 coaches, for this experiment. It had NO connection to the 1955 Modernisation plan, which was by this time already dead. XP64 was itself a part of a new Modernisation plan which introduced outside industry into many features of the design stage, for everything from rolling stock & modern traction design to Stations & other railway features.
So the XP64 stock was primarily an experimental exercise in 1960's design. Not even the duck eggshell blue & grey livery was adopted. No two coaches were the same, as a host of new ideas were being experimented with. And only ONE coach had air assisted modified B4 bogies, as the B4 design itself had already revealed problems of "hunting" ! Further the experimental doors with double hinges were a virtual immediate & dangerous failure. So ALMOST nothing on the XP64 stock was actually adopted !!!
About the only things taken from the XP64 experimental design rake, were the new fibre glass methods of seat framing, & interior paneling. Which was incorporated into the Mk2A/B & C production coaches. As the B4 bogie was fitted to the first Mk2 coaches of 1964 (before XP64 was complete) & the double glazed aluminium window design had already been introduced on the SR 1962 4CEP phase 2 EMU's.
Further the first Mk2 coaches (Not to be confused with Mk2A) introduced in 1964, all of which were FK's, and painted in either SR green or LMR Maroon, with one small batch, for each of these two Regions. Had their entry into service slightly delayed due to the teething problems of the new B4 bogie under them. Indeed these first Mk2 FK's still utilised a Mk1 style interior featuring a lot of wood, and Mk1 sized doors, and Mk1 First Class Compartment seating with slightly modified cushions & seat back shaping. Many were later modified internally, but could always be identified by their "narrow" Mk1 coach end doors.
THE B4 BOGIE
One of the first Mk2 coaches built (in LMR Maroon) was used in mileage accumulation tests, between Old Oak Common (West London) & Glasgow overnight. A round trip every night of nearly 800 miles. Having quickly accumulated over 50,000 miles in these tests, the first signs of hunting had been detected. Which the B4 bogie had been intended to prevent.
BR Senior Engineers were in 1964 still under the illusion that "hunting" occurred as a result of wear, were the bodyshell chassis pin passes through the bogie mounting hole. As a result they approached Esso Petroleum (who at the time had the BR Contract for fuel & lubricants supply) for help in agreeing a new & thicker grease to lubricate the pin.
My Father being the Manager of Esso's Rail Transport Department at the time, had to set the price for this new lubricant. In a meeting with BR Engineers & Fawley Refinery Scientists inside Old Oak Common Carriage shed. Being a school holiday, my father took me along, (I was just 8 years old) where I was amazed to see a brand new Mk2 FK coach in Maroon suspended in the air by gantry cranes, with its bogies on the track beneath.
BR Engineers soon learnt that the true cause of "hunting" is actually due to the conicity of the wheel tread, NOT matching the inclined angle of the rail head. Having discovered this, a revolution quickly took place in precision matching wheel treads, flanges & rail head angles. Hunting as a result became a lot rarer, & the B4 bogie wheelsets were rapidly realigned to suit, becoming a very reliable and smooth riding design.
That's interesting although maybe I shouldn't publicly admit that... What is FK by the way?
Do the dual seats not bear more than a passing resemblance to those used in the APT-P coaches? The first class seats also look similar to those used in the HST mk3 coaches.
Hunting came back with the Hitachi trains. The bogies under the Mark 4 stock are pretty bad.
Hunting bogies are the norm on modern stock on the continent. All the knowledge gained sixty years ago has been lost. They can't even produce a comfortable seat.
So many four-bay brake seconds around. In an experimental set it seems odd, as is the practice of hauling around a lot of empty space on trains, even today.
The "empty space" was used for parcels, mail, unaccompanied dogs, pigeons, cycles and large items of luggage, and provided secure storage. Groups of young people eg youth hosteller, liked it as they could sit on the floor on the the foam rolls they carried on their rucksacks, also passengers in wheel chairs.
In 1977 BR abolished charges for cycles, and the spaces were well utilised. Then the HSTs came along which did not have this "useless " space.
General purpose space is yet another useful feature which has been abolished.
2:35 "A dark brown underframe."
2:37 Except it was actually black -- better to go from photographs rather than diagrams.
BTW, although there wasn't time to include much from XP64 into the original batch of Mark 2s, there was plenty of time for the Mark 2As and onwards, built from 1968. Wikipedia says that more XP64 features were included in these later batches, but it doesn't give any details.
Much of the information regarding the sets details, including the sets colours, were taken from Multiple railway publications at the time, mainly Railway Magazine July '64!
Ive found a lot of the photos are not not entirely true to colour, hence seemingly black underframes
I remember mk. IIs with fibreglass seats, luggage racks as per XP64 and reading lights.
I can imagine that the bifold doors would have confused many passengers and hindered departures.
The lesson is, lay off the pies and eat more veg'.
Even as a larger chap, I have no issue getting through a MK1s door. Then again, I'm rarely dealing with 2 suitcases
@@JackStackhouse
The mockup at the Design Centre was orange and grey livery.
The bogies and underframe were brown. The idea was that brake block dust would not show.
Check out Michael Hariss's book on the Mark 2 coach for details of the XP-64 that were incorporated into the Mk2A coaches.