The Surprising Moment that Drove Peter Hitchens Back to Religion
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- Опубликовано: 26 июн 2024
- Peter Hitchens, Conservative journalist and author, is interviewed by host of The Sacred podcast, Elizabeth Oldfield.
In this clip Peter spoke about the painting of The Last Judgement that he saw and the profound impact it had on his return to Christianity.
Full episode here: • Peter Hitchens: Is Pos...
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'What if the last judgement ...is a real thing?'
Indeed
Most christians don't know their religion. Does "judgement" here refer to the first judgement after death in the spiritual world (the individual judgement) or does it refer to the second judgement, the zombie apocalypse where all the dead bodies rise up from the ground and all the souls in the spiritual world are reunited with their resurrected bodies (the general judgement)? The later is never going to happen and is unbelievable to everyone except dumb superstious people, hence why basically everyone is abandoning religion.
And what if that Judgement is 'Father forgive them they know not what they do' that will Good News. God is Good and He is always Good.
@@plotinus393 Most non-Christians don't know the Bible.
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ will be the final judge (John 5:22). The Bible also teaches that All who have not put their trust in Jesus for salvation will be judged by Him at the final “great white throne,” and they will be punished according to the works they have done and be eternally in hell.
The Bible is very clear that unbelievers are storing up Gods wrath against themselves (Romans 2:5).
The Bible also teaches the good news that whoever believes and trusts in the saving works of Jesus on the cross will eternally be saved from this judgement and be in heaven with Him (John 3:16).
That's exactly what Peter Hitchens has done.
@@karl5395 How is God good then if he punishes eternally for not believing when it is in fact impossible to change your belief if you don't actually believe? Can you decide not to believe now that you do? It's not the way belief works.
@@karl5395 Jesus says that he will not be the judge. You judge yourself.
I just give thanks to God for Peter's returning to him. I wish him well on this incredible journey. The love of God be with him.
Amen
Is he Christopher Hitchens brother?
Which god are you giving thanks to?
It was fear that ultimately delivered me to Christ in August 1981… I bought a ‘fire insurance policy…There was no ‘Damascus Road’ experience… Within 10 months, I providentially attended a 2 day Josh McDowell seminar and was introduced to Christian Apologetics that set me on God’s path for my life…
T’was grace that taught my heart to fear
And grace my fears relieved…
yep, that shows how this cult depends on fear and ignorance.
@@velkyn1if you think Josh McDowell is about ignorance... then maybe we can identify where ignorance really lies.
That SHOULD tell you something. Fear is no reason to believe anything
@@Slohoffman01 yep, cults use fear to exist.
@@malawiplaces315 Yep, Josh McDowell is all about lies and ignorance and so is his son and grandson. He's quite a failure as an apologist with his baseless claims that he has evidence for his imaginary friend. Curious how he claims things like "personal experience" which any cult can do. And he misses the fact that mentions of christians by ancient historians isn't evidence for his imaginary friend. If that were the case, then any god is as real as his since they have worshippers too.
"I would rather live believing God and to die only to find out that he doesn't exist, rather than to live not believing in God and to die only to find out he does exist." - Albert Camus.
so, you think pascal's wager is a stance to live one's life by ??
If he doesn't exist. There won't be any finding out will there?
@@haydenwalton2766yea actually, "if we do not know whether God exists then we should play it safe rather than risk being sorry." Another of pascal's statements.
@@fluxpistol3608that's the point
@@RobsonSolomon so - waste your life (the only thing you're probably only ever going to have) to believe in something that all areas of enquiry point away from, so that if it IS right (which, as stated, it almost certainly isn't) you get promised rewards ?
* what if there IS a god and you're worshipping the wrong one ?
* what if there IS a god and it only values independent, logical, reasoned critical thought ?
* what if there IS a god, and it doesn't care what we do ?
* what if there's IS a god and there's no experience after this death ?
damn, it's such a cowardly way to live.
The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Proverbs 1:7
To love through fear is the definition of masochism.
@@robertloader9826 you say so, but i don't believe you
The love of God is the fulfillment of wisdom.
@@robertloader9826
The Hebrew word yir·’aṯ translated here as fear refers to awe and reverence
rather than panic, anxiety and trembling.
@@robertloader9826 I agree with you, but this is a different kind of fear. 'Fear' is not a great translation. It's more of an awe you feel when confronted with the 'divine' or you're standing on Pluto looking out into the universe beyond and you grasp life's complete insignificance. We have seen what your kind of 'fear' (of death, mortality, loss of work etc) has done to this world over the the last number of years. All the best to you.
This was a great interview - I love the clash of styles and personalities between you and Peter! But nonetheless you are united in your common faith which I love.
On another note, Peter is right - we Christians (and anyone with a sense of fairness and justice for that matter) have a responsibility to stop the rot that is taking place in the west today. With the new (likely) Labour government here in the UK, things will likely accelerate in the wrong direction. But good, thinking people can certainly do our own bit to slow the damage done to our society, by calling the collective consciousness of the country to account on a number of key social issues - with reason and with conviction of our Christian beliefs firmly in hand.
We are not all christians in the UK. Christians are in the minority. A secular/humanist society is best for believers and non-believers. No religion should be privileged.
@@lizzieh5284 Practically speaking you're right, it would be virtually impossible to implement a Christian orthodoxy now in the UK, given the amount of atheists, agnostics and other religious beliefs we now have within our country.
I take serious issue with your second proposition, "no religion should be privilaged". First of all, what makes you think secularism/humanism isn't also a religion, in the very basic sense of the word? A religion is a guiding set of rules or principles on which to live your life, founded on agreed suppositions about the nature of reality. Humanism supposes (foolishly) the lack of existence of God - a belief that requires faith like any other - and then borrows a bunch of Christian values and assumptions about the world and morality as your modus operandi. Why should Humanism be privilaged above any other religion? Where are the merits of Humanism exactly? Does it even have any that it hasn't borrowed from Christianity?
The problem with humanism is that it falls down under its own weight. Without God how can there be ultimate values, objective right and wrong, or moral duties? In the Christian world-view God gives us these values. In other words, our morality comes directly from God, and we know what right and wrong, good and bad are because God has revealed these things to us in his Word.
Britain used to be Christian - and the legacy of that Christianity carries forward to the present day with our strong parliamentary democracy, law, and liberties afforded to us by centuries of Christian heritage. Already we see our society crumbling due to the disintegration of Christianity in Britain. This is what Peter is referring to - he's been documenting it for decades.
the Bible in itself is the greatest written collection of any work.... The profound story and message that it carries has tremendous weight to it. The message it carries is one of grace and Love. People who do not read or understand the Bible, believe that it is full of judgement and condemnation. The entire story of the beginning of man and the infliction that free will provides yet we are allowed forgiveness! Very thankful and praise Jesus that Peter found his way and seen the light! It's a beautiful thing and glory to God in Heaven! Thank you Jesus!
Claptrap, you don't know that any of it is true, nor who wrote the copies of copies of translations in dying languages, by multiple unknown authors; if god has the greatest message for mankind, then why would he rely on text?.The gospels were not signed!. The profound message that it carries has tremendous weight to it?,....for example endorsing slavery Exodus 21, Deuteronomy and Leviticus, misogyny, animal cruelty, homophobia, slaughtering and enslaving 'the heathen that surround you'. I understand it alright, and it is definitely full of judgement and condemnation, hatred,..its all in your repugnant book.'The story of the beginning of man'?; genesis even gets the account of creation wrong, creating trees, life and man before light!,...totally impossible. So god creates a son,(hinself), has him tortured and put to death for sins, just for two days, then creates a loophole that he's created himself to forgive us?this is vicarious redemption, the disgusting prospect of passing sins onto others for eternity. Besides, you don't even know if a jebus character ever existed,....never left a note;
The Bible, often hailed as divine, is saturated with evil content that must be called out. It endorses slavery, treating people as mere property to be bought, sold, and brutalized (Leviticus 25:44-46), a gross violation of human rights that perpetuates suffering and dehumanization. It commands horrific acts of violence and genocide, such as in Deuteronomy 20:16-17, where entire populations, including women and children, are ordered to be slaughtered-an act of pure monstrosity.
Further, the Bible is rife with misogyny, reducing women to submissive roles and valuing them less than men (1 Timothy 2:11-12). It promotes barbaric practices like stoning people to death for minor offenses (Deuteronomy 22:20-21), and it supports homophobia, condemning same-sex relationships and fostering bigotry (Leviticus 20:13). To glorify this book is to ignore the pain and oppression it has justified. It is not a beacon of love and grace but a manual of cruelty and control.
@@fiddlefolk People get out of the Bible whatever they want, based on what they are prone to.
F.e. a kind person will romanticize it, a harsh person will read the punitive aspects, a depressive person will see little hope and become a slave, ... etc
This is especially the case with the Quran f.e.
The main problem is that - even if it is as you say - there is no way to prove or disprove this particular god is real. Everything is based on claims by individuals when it comes down to revelation. Confirmation bias may have altered the state of belief by the masses.
There are rules the Bible ostensibly wants us to follow, until the day we die... so logically before adapting such a life, one would need proof of the claimed authority behind it whcih still remains absent.
Secondly, the Bible is not the only place where morality can take shape. Morality itself transcends religions, they are only examples of possible moral codes. Claiming a divine authority has been done by many religions and cults, so that does not make one particular one true. The reason of it all sounding good, is not a basis either.
Objective morality is also impossible. But we can as a society form a moral code that can work well at a certain point in time and see it adjusted if need be.
Religion does not offer that kind of liberty and flexibility, it does not knkw how yo go along with the times. Maybe the only way adjustment can happen is if a new "prophet" would arise that is recognized in a religion but due to the nature of religion most likely start a new one, like Muhammad or Joseph Smith f.e.
A problem with f.e. the Bible:
The creation of a problem "sin", which when done is followed by punishment in this lsife or the next. A gracious solution after millenia of sinning is offering a possibility of forgiveness. We did not create ourselves, we ultimately are not responsible for having weaknessess instilled in us by a creator... but luckily we are blessed enough that in our struggle we still can receive forgiveness...
Your thoughts?
@@Rain-Dirt Interesting and complex matter. Law of Moses or the 10 commandments had to be created for the simple fact that one half to a million Jews had been esnslaved by the Egyptians for a long period of time and then suddenly set free. These people needed a social construct or laws to guide them in their new found freedoms to help establish their society . By the time Jesus got to the scene, these laws had expanded to around 630 laws. These free people became enslaved by the law... It became a faith of temples ran by pharisees who demanded their offerings and good deeds for them to prosper. The beginning of the prosperity gospel where only the Pharisees prospered. Much like the Joel Osteen's of today. Jesus came onto the scene and basically explained that their salvation comes through him. The temple resides within you and by turning to him for forgiveness of your sins. By his dying, he fulfilled the marriage covenant between God and the church. Satan no longer owned the earth and the dead. From Matthew through Revelation, it foretells the coming tribulation that Jesus warned his disciples of and the destruction of the temple. End of story! There is no need for a rapture!
@@Rain-Dirt I see some of your point ...
Muhammad came 350 years after Christ and was self proclaimed and married to a Catholic. Joseph Smith was self proclaimed.
God, the creator gave Adam and Eve free will except for one exception. Do not eat from the fruit from the tree of knowledge. They did so and when God asked them to step from behind the bush and be seen. Adam said we can't because we are naked. God asked, Who told you that you are naked? The birth of sin for all that came after.
Phenomenal... can't believe I'm hearing Hitchens talk like this. Every knee... and every tongue...
Yes every tongue will proclaim Christ is King
Really enjoyed this interview - great job!
God comes to us where we are.
Thank you for this
How wonderful the association with the finest wine too - the symbol of God's love and grace; and sacrifice, the gift of his own blood and the offer of our life in Him, in that sea of grace and love
as for the interview itself: these things are intimate and difficult, as the interviewer kindly and correctly acknowledges, so much so that we may struggle to admit it even to ourselves - how very vulnerable we are when we face God aware of our sin
the nakedness of the story of the bible
I disagree with Peter H on many issues, (but agree on others) and I'm an atheist, but I love watching, reading and hearing him. His passion, erudition and sincerity are inspiring.
Why are you an atheist?
Thank you both.
Fear drove him , like most people.Worst reason to follow fantasy.
"fantasy", simply because you haven't received the personal gift of faith?
@@GEOFF0906 "gift of faith"
Typical excuse. I'd agree that it is not a "fantasy", but a product of human evolution through socio-cultural religious beliefs. It is still a fabrication by the human mind. An attempt to deal with reality in a time where this seemed to be useful, and where other rival groups of people had where doing the same with their gods.. having a nice rival god tribalism amongst eachother... with some wars here and there.
It is my opinion that the "gift of faith" only manifests itself in the brain through pathways aligning itself in certain ways. I was a strong believer for 3 decades, having that "gift of faith". I am no believer any longer because I learned new things that caused the faith to be obliterated.
Faith is not a choice, but it is also not a gift. It can not be given, but it can be learned and indoctrinated. If you have nothing else seriously challenging that faith, then the faith will most likely remain. That said, religion has their way to keep the believer inside of it, either through fear, confirmation bias, peer pressure or cherrypicking. This ensures blocking out threats and the desire to reaffirm the things already believed in, which strengthens those pathways in the brains that is connecting all the "religious dots". It is quite litterally a religious framework where the believer starts from the religion with the goal to end with the religion.
That is one of the reason why it is hard to get people out of a cult. It can take a very long time until the "Aha-erlebnis" occurs and it usually is through analogies and not by questioning the doctrine itself, since the doctrine provides all the answers it needs to keep it "true". Like for example explaining a problem of non-believers not believing in god with lacking the "gift of faith".
Hi Peter from Brisbane Australia
RUclips randomly put a video up of your amazing talk I think at Oxford in 2012 and I thought why have I never heard of you before when you propose such deep thinking logic? I assume the answer is the suppression of truth, beauty and goodness rules the roost. For what it's worth, I pray every day for the repose of the soul of your brother. Thank you for your positive contribution to bring the world from the grip of its apostasy.
Brisbane stand up
The fear of god is the beginning of wisdom mr Hitchens don’t be ashamed
Remember the medieval folk who supposedly had ignorant fear of God knew how to define a woman, that ab@rtion is murder, that a girl can never become a boy, that choosing to avoid meat is a mental illness...
I sent Peter Hitchens a copy of my short book on writing, Becoming a Writer, wherein I namecheck him and explore the relationship between the divine and creating art. I don't know if he received my book or not and find it hard to accept that he OF ALL PEOPLE didn't have the simple good manners to acknowledge my gift. I would live to know what happened. By the way, his book The Rage Against God is superb.
If you gave it with expectation of something in return was it really a gift?
..."fear of god is the beginning of wisdom"?
Why? Why do i need to "fear" a benevolent loving creator?
He loves you...but you have to fear him?
That's wisdom, true.
It says a lot about man...ie, "The Creator".
We SHOULD fear man.
After all, we've created Religion. Look at the damage THAT'S done since its creation.
Fear is not the right word. It is a deeper meaning where we tremble before the great unknown. Most christians are lost in projections and their fears are ruling them.
He's not benevolent. He has standards and requirements. Have you read Genesis and Exodus? God is patient to a point, but he's not going to endlessly endure defiance and rebellion. The fear of God is the _beginning_ of wisdom, not the fulfillment of it. You have the time and opportunity to seek him out, to learn about him. As you get to know him, you start to realize he's been completely misunderstood. Jesus is the example of what God had in mind when they said "Let us create man in our image."
Fear of not surviving is only the start; realizing he can destroy you, but if you pay attention, he's made it quite clear he's looking for those who will love him. Has he not created us? Created life and a wonderful world of great beauty and power for us? Has he not given us the ability to choose and respected that by letting us make our own choices without forcing us to do what he wants whether we wanted to or not? Read the 4 Gospels in the New Testament. Don't study the Bible, use it to study God, that's why we have it. Study Jesus; his attitudes and behaviors. Notice he gives us only one new command, and it's to love one another as he has loved us. Read 1st Corinthians Chapter 13 to gain a better understanding of what that love actually is. It's far more than just emotion.
@@markd3250 Too bad this god fails to provide the things we need to either believe in unison and/or to honor the creation given to us, by making it a better place for everyone.
In my experience: from an antropological point of view, the Bible makes much more sense than from a believers point of view. It makes me say that humans came first, god(s) came second. God(s) are transactional, in the sense that it provides security. That which can not be controlled also contains that which is not known, but also the threats the world poses. Nature is not our friend. (it is impossible that this world has been created for us by a fair god who wants the best for us, who means well, who wants to give us a fair chance)
Having a god or gods who you can make a deal with, can help "control" life. That is what religion in essence is.
Everything is about selfpreservation and through control one can achieve that. Religion is but a product of that. Hence why it is not easy to just even "question" a belief where you spend your whole life around.
And that is just one side to religion as a whole, which includes Christianity. The god of Christianity is more of an abusive god than anything else. Epsecially reading up on the book of Job. It's already a problem that Job is used as a toy, but nobody even cares about the other people who got whiped out, seemingly meaning nothing.
Sure, it's the book of Job.. but it's not the only problem the Bible has.
Paul, a selfproclaimed prophet who desires to be obeyed as THE authority on Jesus' life/death/profession and will let you know if you do not do so, and using guildtripping to get help when he needing money.. I do not trust people with that kind of demeanor.
Confirmation bias, cherrypicking and fear.. The key elements of the Christian (Abrahamic) religion.
First I studied the Bible to study "god", now I study the Bible to study humanity.
York Minster does have the fearful sounding Doomstone, a survivor from the early Norman period, which displays some frightful torments we can expect if we wind up in the other place.
The Descent from the Cross (in the Prado) is staggering
Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. I had very similar experience,now I’m a saved ,loved and loveing
You either wholeheartedly believe it or you don’t.
Saying that it’s ’worth considering’ is basically Pascal’s Wager
God bless you Peter. This is wonderful news.
Will we ever see Freya India on The Sacred? She was recently on Louise Perry’s podcast and it made for an absolutely fascinating conversation x
We’d love to have her on!
The Last Judgement is like a Platonic Ideal of that little voice in your head which says “don’t do it”.
'What if X is the case?' isn't a good basis for believing in X. It's a variant of the ad ignorantiam fallacy.
Give ALL the glory to God. Thank you Jesus!!!
Dear Elizabeth, you obviously did a great job making your guest feel comfortable. After seeing him storm off from Alex’s podcast I was a bit afraid of him. 😅
I loved the clip you did of him about making the choice to believe. That was a wise thing to say.
Thanks for sharing, and really glad you enjoyed the podcast.
Hi @TeamDeizinelli - what is the "Alex" podcast you refer to?
Alex o Neil @@aussiedadreviews
@@aussiedadreviewsAlex O'Connor - enter his name alongside Peter Hitchens and you'll find the video.
@@Freethinkingtheist77 thank you
Gosh, i am more than surprised.
4:02-4:09 I can't help but recall Peter Hitchens' tantrum on Alex O'Connor's channel.
Life is an enchantment. Not a mere fantasy or hangover.
I don't think fear is a respecable motivation. There is such a thing as courage and I believe that exercising courage is nobler than submission to fear. I will stay atheist, thank you.
>>>I don't think fear is a respecable motivation
I don't believe there's anything courageous or even possible to respect about being an atheist.
Frankly it sounds much more cowardly.
@@stephenhayesuk It also used to be called common sense.
'Fear' and 'love' are so interchangeable in scripture, yet we are also told that they are exact opposites. How can you love someone whom you fear? I'll never understand that one.
Fear in the Bible means awe. Respect. Not fright or terror. Though that would be wise if you are embracing a life that offends God.
Neither will I.
It has a lot to do with "respect mah authority", to be fair. About knowing what "god" is capable of but does not use his power to harm you, therefore your thanks must be reflected in love.
Therefore you also have to accept that "god" wants only the best for you and the only way to do that is by following "god's" rules... (laid out by men), but by not doing so... you may fear the wrath of god (for disrespecting...)
It's an abusive relationship really where a narcissist needs attention and praise. But set in a religion, it can provide a structure for a society or tribe to keep a certain order and control which in turn can provide a feeling of security. Despite the lack of certain freedoms of choice due to illogical rules.
For some, it's important to only believe what the herd believes, or those in a herd you want to ingratiate yourself to.
For others, truth starts from within yourself. What do you intuitively grasp from the world around you,
( if there were no other humans to learn the religion from... would its existence come to you naturally? )
and what do you understand about your fellow humans and the way their allegiance to a herd mentality works?
( If you were born in India, into a hindu family, within a devout hindu society, how would you know the 'truth of Jesus')
If... after this soul-searching... you still believe in a particular organised religion... then you aren't interested in reality.
Only what benefits you obtain ( personally and socially ) by aligning yourself with your herds tradition.
The four last things, death, judgement Heaven or Hell
He looks healthier these days too, maybe an inner glow coming forward!
I hear Peter Hitchens speak and he never reveals only total faith in Christ and nothing else,can lead to peace with God.
spot the protestant
Yep.. protestants have poor theology
@@adrianc1264 …reformed Calvinist would be a better label.
Plenty of other people have peace who don't believe in god. Many Buddhists who don't believe in god but follow the Buddha have peace. Also atheists and humanists. Is your 'peace' superior to theirs?
@@lizzieh5284 On the day of judgement you will find they in fact don’t have peace with God.
Perfect love - wherever found and regardless of its form - casts out all fear.
Love is an energy form. It's the most beautiful and powerful of all forms of energy. God is absolute, perfect, pure energy. He and love are one and the same. Love and light are one and the same. There's a reason why Jesus said the greatest command of the law was to love God with all your heart, mind and soul, for in so doing you are uniting with the love of God, and there's simply no better place to be.
The judgment starts FIRST with Christians = 1 Peter 4:17 & Revelation 14:7.
Revelation 13:3-15 & Revelation 14:6,7 clearly reveal the two critical choices for everyone on earth!
I wish Christians could at least get on the same page regarding this judgment business. Like, are we each headed directly to our own individual judgment the moment after we die, or are we just going into a deep sleep after we die until Jesus comes back and…does some stuff…and then when all that business is over with, EVERYONE will stand before G-d to get the judgement business settled all at once…I mean, WTactualF
I’ve learned over the years that fear is, as Frank Herbert wrote in Dune, the mind-killer. People’s ability to reason goes out the window when they are terrified. They do stupid things when fear grips them and they can no longer think clearly. This has been writ large in world events of the past few years of people believing stupid things for stupid reasons and behaving with hatred towards others they were made to fear, something of which Hitchens has complained, actually. So, it was sad to hear him give the thought, “What if the last judgement is a real thing?” as a reason for turning to Christianity. That is exactly why the myth of the last judgement was invented. When the promises of Christianity soon faded, they resorted to threats. Why else was the Revelation of John, a man who doesn’t even profess to be a Christian and who writes in such an un-Christian style, tacked on to the end of the New Testament?
Myth? You speak like one fresh out of the marinating vats known as universities. The last judgement is most certainly real, because that's the time when this approximation we mistakenly call our life, is truly over. People complain about why life is so hard, but it isn't. Actual life is wonderful; God is life. What we are experiencing isn't life. What we're experiencing is death, along with all the problems it brings. This choice was made for all of us by Adam and Eve, and thus we're all born in this state of gradual loss and deterioration until death. God has incredibly gone to the trouble (at great cost to himself) of providing a way to redeem us from that, because he wasn't willing that all should perish. He hasn't given up on us...yet, but there will be a time when he's no longer willing to endure what's going on.
God set all this in motion for a specific purpose. It had a beginning, and it will have an end. Both of those moments are by design, part of the original plan. The last judgement is simply a sifting through all who have lived, to see which ones God wants to keep. Everything else will be cast out into the outer darkness which is the second death; the first death being the death of the material body. Your soul, your consciousness is spirit. You were given a measure of life, and free will. You can choose to be interested in God, even love him, or not. You cannot however, exist apart from him. You don't have the energy to sustain yourself. He is life, and without him is death.
To better understand what this love is, read 1st Corinthians chapter 13 in the New Testament. That will give you a clue, but the real power of it is far beyond the ability of words to even describe or convey.
@@markd3250 I suppose you never studied epistemology or have any regard for it. How can something which hasn’t yet happened by “certainly real ?”. I understand that you absolutely believe in it. If you mean to say that it is certainly real as an idea then I agree. It was invented some time after Job was written because Job never considered it. Final judgement didn’t become an idea until apocalypticism became popular among Jews and was possibly born of spiteful wishful thinking against the enemies who had treated them so badly.
“The last judgement is simply a sifting through all who have lived, to see which ones God wants to keep.”
Imagine an entity so powerful that it could create everything there is, that would be such a stickler for physical laws that it made them impossible to disobey, yet would be indifferent to the suffering of children and animals, and would care so much whether human beings chose whether or not to conform to particular moral laws that it would damn them forever if they did not. If that sounds more like a human tyrant than anything divine, that’s because it probably is.
@@neilcreamer8207 Think of it like a movie, where the film has been shot and in the can. We're sitting in a theater watching it, and we're somewhere in the middle of the movie. The ending has already been set and done; we just haven't arrived at that point in the movie yet. The ending is most certainly real. You can debate about it all you like before the movie ends, but that isn't going to change the ending.
God is outside of time. What he gave the prophets, including the Apostle John in the Book of Revealing, wasn't a prediction of what might happen or could happen, it was a preview of what _did_ happen. You can debate about it all you like, but it isn't going to change it.
Imagine you don't know nearly as much as you think you do with your humanist indoctrination. You're not morally superior to God, even though you think you are. You don't understand the nature of what he's made, and what he can do about and with it. We're in a finite testing arena, to give us the chance to make our choices. What he decides to do with you at the end of your days, will depend on what you decided to do with him during your days. It has nothing to do with human ideas of morality. It's about him, and your attitude towards him.
@@markd3250 Your movie analogy doesn’t work. You haven’t thought it through. In your model, if we were sitting in a theatre watching the movie we’d be outside the movie timeline. That’s where you place God. But we don’t live outside the ‘movie’ (the world). We’re in it. What’s more, as characters in a movie, we’re unaware that we’re in a movie. We don’t ‘know’ anything except what we’ve experienced in the movie. Any dialog in the movie about what might happen outside the movie is hearsay to a movie character. In your model, the only one who could know anything about the true nature of the movie is God and he couldn’t communicate with fictional characters who have already been given their lines and shot their scenes which are already in the can. All you’ve done is take your doctrine and reframe it in another way without ever explaining how humans could know any of what you claim we can.
This is the problem with apologetics. You start with the belief and then try to use reason to argue why it must be true. But belief without justification isn’t rational and you fail. Using reason exposes beliefs for what they are and results in reasonable doubt, not belief. See Socrates or Hume, for example.
Incidentally, you’ve assumed two things about me for which you have no evidence. I suppose this is symptomatic of the sort of thinking that leads to unsupported beliefs. I am neither fresh out of university nor was my education humanist.
@@neilcreamer8207 You really got this humanist act down pat, don't you? I've talked to people like you before, and it's just a waste of time. I have no interest in your cookie cutter pretend cleverness. You're not going to understand the spiritual realm because you simply don't want to.
Now crow about how superior you are, and how inferior I am to your imagined superior logic and reasoning. It won't save you at the end of your days, but it was your choice.
Interesting. It seems the demands of social media make these short excerpts necassary as a kind of pointer to the more substantial discussion, a 'teaser' if you will.
I'm not sure this works really because if it is a flavor of the whole discussion, then it's not that interesting.
It would seem that, to some degree or another, Hitchens return to religion is motivated by the fear of the judgement of a God who punishes ... well, tortures really ... wrong doers. This may be a novel perspective for a younger listener but, for people of my generation, it was a dominant, highly destructive, narrative.
So, if this is the flavor of the discussion, I'm not sure that I'm interested.*
On a broader level, Hitchens has at least one thing in common with his brother and that is a sense of detachment. There seems very little passion or emotion in his observations. He didn't regard you're questions as particularly in need of 'apology'. For him they were an interesting event between long lunches and on the same 'level' as asking about the wine.
For you, they were intrusive because you care.
* I propably will give the longer version a go. 😁
You are nearly there Peter!
Return to Mother Church: 🙏📿
You only have one chance to get it right... choose wisely. ❤
xD I prefer to think about the whole thing first before even considering if there is a "choice" to be made in the first place.
one short life, a lot of vague signs and guesswork to wether this god is even real..., lots of speculative arguments on both sides, is supposed to be a good/fair/loving god...
eternity is a long time. One short life pales. Is that short time truly sufficient enough to "test" a human being in a world as it is, with the little proof there is for (a) god (let alone a specific one!), to conclude what happens for eternity?
If god is good/fair/loving: then he bares the ultimate responsibility for out actions. After all, we have been created by him, he knows how we will be and act in every situation.. he knows he did not really do a whole darn lot to make this a better place nor to make himself known properly adjusted to our own shortcomings... Then every decision that we made with a good intent towards others (religious or not) ought not to be condemned by this god. Because that would make of god an unfair and evil god. Ultimately it was people who wrote the Bible, the Quran, the Vedas, every religious text,... who can prove they were speaking the truth? Why would god not take these legit questions into account? It is fair to ask these type of questions, because if we have to restrict ourselves with rules which include illogical ones, for our whole life... it better have some good reasons! And since there is only this god who could explain it all and this god knowing how much some people need that... I'd say this god - if he's real - does not give a whole darn lot.
If god is evil.. then it does not matter how well you try to follow certain religious rules, it's basically like buying a lottery ticket and hope you'll win a spot.
I chose to be a good person to myself, others and aim to improve the quality of life so this place where we live in can become better in general. Any good and fair god who punishes people for that, is in fact an evil god. If fear is what drives you to be good (even in religious terms), then it becomes more selfish than loving.
@@Rain-Dirt
You have no idea what you're talking about.
@@user-qe1qt7pk8m Hahaha, sure.
I've had my decades of strong (apologetic) belief behind me, where I lived, breathed, thought christianity and do not wish to enter that prison again. cfr. Plato's Allegory.
How do you know what I know or don't know. You can't. But I can tell you I was a true Christian and that is not something that you can take away from me by just saying what you just said.
But if that makes you happy to say that, then sure. :)
@Rain-Dirt
How do I know what you know or don't know??? You just told me.
Not hard to figure out.
As far as you being a "true christian" I doubt that as well.
@@user-qe1qt7pk8m As a christian I often criticized christians for not being christian enough. For all we know, you may have been fitting in as one of those christians I would have criticized in the past and I honestly think there's a good chance for that.
because you did not judge the words I spoke, instead you went personal and that is all you really did in the end. Why did you not take up the opportunity to form a rebuttle that invites an open conversation?
What would Jesus have done... or Paul have said... (two very different people indeed, mind you)
Anyway, I have nothing to prove to you. You can think what you want. I have no problem with you judging me either since it will not make a difference :)
I don't think Peter Hitchens will appreciate the capital C on conservative in the description.
To be fair, he did recently recommend we vote for them in spite of everything during that Unherd thing.
@@eighteenfiftynine yes he did even though he admitted to despising them. He just dreads a Labour government even more.
OMG….he perfectly describes the Catholic Church around the 5 minute mark
Often men of a certain age with wisdom and experience of this world realize that it's quite preposterous not to have a relationship with God. It's often a private relationship but still a deep one.
They are entitled to that without imposing it on others.
There’s two Judgements. The first is the Judgement Seat of Christ. It will take place after the Rapture, and is the judgement of the righteous. It involves the giving of rewards to the Saints. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11
The second Judgement is the Great White Throne Judgement. Which is a judgement of the wicked. This is probably the one which Peter refers too. Revelation 20:11-15.
Deliver us, good Lord, from eternal death in that dreadful day when that heaven and earth shall be moved, when thou shalt judge the world by fire.
This day is the day of ire and wretchedness and misery, the great day and very bitter.
Therefore what shall I, most miserable wretch, either say or do when I shall bring forth no good thing before so high a judge?
O Christ, we desire thee now have mercy, we beseech thee which camest to redeem them that were lost.
Suffer not those that be redeemed to be lost.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost,
Amen.
The painting was the mustard seed.
That's exactly hitting the nail on the head. If you want to fix the world, get yourself sorted out with God first.
Which god?
@@lizzieh5284There is only One God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
@@geoffstokes in your opinion.
@@lizzieh5284it's not an opinion, it's fact backed up by an avalanche of evidence. If only people would read and believe the evidence.
@@geoffstokes there is no 'evidence'. Your claims are based on faith alone.
I'm with Socrates, the first step to knowledge is to admit you know nothing. No need to invoke the supernatural.
I am very tired, and I guess I don't really fear the judgement that must come. I know I am rotten, I welcome the fire that is the light of Christ. Burn away what is unworthy in me. Temper and anneal what is good in me. I invite the time of righteousness, only let me repent.
I need a healthy fear of God and fear of judgement. I love my sin and want to reject that sin and love Christ instead. Judgement, hell, torment and fear have a role to play in pushing many of us to Christ. We need the grace of God and the atonement that Christ provides but we also need to know what we are being saved from. I’d we have no sense of our sin and the gravity of its consequences we will not seek out Christ. Christ came to save us from our sin and the consequences of our sin but he cannot do that if we are determined to wallow in our sins and pride.
What if…? What if we all are just AIs some sadistic folk is using for their entertainment?
Susie and a thin man found me in the park. I was walking slowly round the pond, making the bones in my nose tickle by hooting.
Free will in itself does not stand up to close inspection. if you believe in a creator that is ultimatley responsible for the creation of all things then ultimately you end up with a contradiction in terms .
I don't understand your logic here - please explain.
you cannot choose to believe any more than a believer can choose to un-believe. Belief is thrust upon you in the same way "your" "free" will is. Deciding to believe based on fear is perhaps the most disingenuous route you can take.
That creator can also create free will
@@mikefoster5277 How can the created ultimately be held responsable for something that they themselves did not create ?
@@MrDOB1000 the idea does not make sense. You don't choose your thoughts or beliefs and you can test this yourself. Watch you thoughts in your head and you will see they appear regardless of what you do. They don't come from "you". Try to change a single belief you have about anything of your own will now...can you?
The key moment in this nonsense comes at approximately 5 mins. onwards.
He is surely (mischievously and unsubtly) referring to the dominating influence that purveyors of ‘faith/belief’ have had, on gullible minds, over millennia.
If Hitchens now prefers to ‘believe’ (I don’t believe that he ‘believes’ for a moment, unlike Ayaan H Ali’s return to ‘faith’) then fine. That’s what and all it is - belief. If all those of ‘faith’ would simply acknowledge that it’s their choice to ‘believe’ and leave the rest of us to get on with our lives, without the constant proselytising, then the world would be a happier place.
Peter Hitchens is not Christopher Hitchens.
As for proselytizing: that’s often in the eye of the receiver. Christopher Hitchens was a proselytizer of atheism, and quite good at it.
This argument of 'leave the rest of us to get on with our lives' gets used a lot. Surely that is precisely what is going on here. He is being asked about his faith journey, and is answering. Can you not see that you are the person taking an issue with faith here? Not a person of faith taking issue with your position. The whole interview is prefaced with how deeply personal this is and that it is entirely up to the individual. You are the only person judging anyone here, by referring to people who have a faith as being gullible. Live and let live brother.
Can’t remember where I heard this but a Christian was interviewing an atheist and he said
“If I’m wrong, then I just die and that’s that. But if you’re wrong, you’re going to hell” lol.
God loves all and Jesus saves. ❤
That is akin to Pascal's Wager and the rebuttal to that may be called "bad faith": you can't just make yourself believe something.
@@martynblackburn9632 True. However as a Christian I believe that anyone who hears the truth of Jesus Christ & the love of god but rejects it, will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
If you open your heart to gods love then you won’t need to make yourself believe. You just will
@@joeyyhc3883 No. You are not understanding. There can be none of what you are suggesting. It's not about rejecting "love" or "truth"; it's about NOT allowing oneself to be decieved. To believe something is true because someone tells you it is, is self-deception. Hearing is not enough. The ears can deceive.
@@martynblackburn9632 it’s you who’s not understanding brother. You don’t hear the word just from someone “who tells you”. You hear it through the words of Christ himself in the gospels and by accepting the Holy Spirit. God love you
@@joeyyhc3883 What "words of Christ?". The Gospels were written by men who lived 40 years after he supposedly died. They are the words of men. Again, there can be none of what you are suggesting...for someone who lives by not letting himself be deceived, he cannot "hear" the "words of Christ" because they are not there. What is there is deception, and that's what the Gospels are. That's what religion is: deception.
Jesus would not want him to fall on his knees, He would be happy he had come back.
I wouldn't think that God demands it, but praying on your knees in the privacy of your inner sanctum is very profitable for those who want to develop a more appropriate relationship with their Creator.
Peter > Chris.
Wouldn’t it be awesome if Almighty God allowed the first man to sin and fall and consequently die followed by All his offspring, but to come Himself as 1 of us through The Virgin, and die our deaths too!
So we can transfer from The First man to The Last Man
The 1 and Only to Resurrect Himself as promised!
Thereby we all know and experience fallen rebellious existence
So we will fully enjoy His Eternal Life!
Read The Gospel of 600BC
By The Inspired Weeping Prophet Jeremiah 31v31-4.
JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.
Awesome? Mor elike profoundly ridiculous and stupid. The creator of an entire universe could not come up with something better?
4:49 Who are they Peter?
So Peter is arguing for manipulating and controlling people by metaphysical means rather than physical.
What one senses is never anything but fantasy.
Why the importance on believing to be saved? God either exists or he doesn't. I don't get the correlation of belief and punishment. Certainly with all of the beliefs in all the different deities a God could not hold it against anyone for being misled. If God wanted our belief, he would have given us a literal sign. Don't you think?
The resurrection of Jesus is the sign that he's given us. You're quite right we need a sign and that's it.
The Last Judgement is real because Jesus Christ is real. He came tonus first full of mercy and love. Next He will come with Judgement. Even our Catholic faith has been so watered down since Vat2 that many souls will be lost just for not believing in hell and God's justifiable wrath. Please return to the Truth!
Not religion , practise Surat Shabd Yoga as taught by a True Living Master.
To all non- believer’s Christ is an equation for the universe and everything in it, let me give you a formula OKMANMANOKMANKO so hurry take the plank position which is a position of repentance from which one rises again or end up in the belly of the dragon
What? He fell for the Pascal's Wager fallacy? OK, what if the ancient greeks were right and the actual god is Zeus?
Why do you atheists always bring up dumb shit like zeus leprechauns and unicorns
@@posto8421 Good day, your usage of the term "dumb shit" explains why some people are atheists. You obviously do not believe in legendary supernatural stuff because there is no evidence for it but will you use the same rule when applying to your religious belief?
Or are you scared that if you use the same rule, you realize some of the things you believe in may just be no different from the "dumb shit" you talk about?
He must have listened to Jordan Peterson.
Jesus said... "𝘕𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘭𝘦𝘴𝘴 𝘐 𝘵𝘦𝘭𝘭 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘵𝘳𝘶𝘵𝘩; 𝘐𝘵 𝘪𝘴 𝘦𝘹𝘱𝘦𝘥𝘪𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘧𝘰𝘳 𝘺𝘰𝘶 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘐 𝘨𝘰 𝘢𝘸𝘢𝘺: 𝘧𝘰𝘳 𝘪𝘧 𝘐 𝘨𝘰 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘢𝘸𝘢𝘺, 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘊𝘰𝘮𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘵𝘦𝘳 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘯𝘰𝘵 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦 𝘶𝘯𝘵𝘰 𝘺𝘰𝘶; 𝘣𝘶𝘵 𝘪𝘧 𝘐 𝘥𝘦𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘵, 𝘐 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘴𝘦𝘯𝘥 𝘩𝘪𝘮 𝘶𝘯𝘵𝘰 𝘺𝘰𝘶.
𝘈𝘯𝘥 𝘸𝘩𝘦𝘯 𝘩𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘤𝘰𝘮𝘦, 𝘩𝘦 𝘸𝘪𝘭𝘭 𝘳𝘦𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘷𝘦 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘸𝘰𝘳𝘭𝘥 𝘰𝘧 𝘴𝘪𝘯, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘰𝘧 𝘳𝘪𝘨𝘩𝘵𝘦𝘰𝘶𝘴𝘯𝘦𝘴𝘴, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘰𝘧 𝘫𝘶𝘥𝘨𝘮𝘦𝘯𝘵"
You and I are that world, and our conscience (if we still have one) is the conduit by which the Spirit of God reproves our souls. Our soul is eternal, but the conscience can be hardened to the point of utter indifference to such things as sin righteousness and judgement. The point of reproof for me was judgement to come and I learned the truth of fear of God being the beginning of wisdom. I thank God for his reproof for it led me to repentance (a change of mind leading to a change of direction).
How do you know Jesus actually said those words? Do you have evidence for it besides 'its in the bible'?
@@lizzieh5284
Do you believe the Bible wrote itself?
The words I quoted are from the Gospel according to the Apostle John who spent three years in the company of Jesus. John, as with all the authors of the New Testament writings were convinced of the crucifixion of Christ (most of his disciples would have been at the foot of the Cross when Jesus died). They also saw him alive after the crucifixion. Their logical and reasonable conclusion was that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead.
The passage I quoted was from John's memories of Christ.
'𝐼𝑡𝑠 𝑖𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒 𝑏𝑖𝑏𝑙𝑒' because the God of Creation is able to move men to accurately write of their personal experiences regarding the events in their lives.
The Bible (the Book) is God's historical record of his dealings with mankind, past present and future. Future history is called eschatology, the study of future events as prophesied in God's Book will surely come to pass. Destruction of the evil in this world and judgement of ungodly men and women is foretold. Deliverance and eternal life is also promised to those who believe. 🙂😒
She's good.
This is very unconvincing.
I respect Mr. Hitchens greatly, mainly because he speaks candidly, very rare these days particularly on YT.
This has to be the worst logic for believing. How can you change your belief based on fear? It's like being threatened with death and so changing your allegiance to the party in order to survive. Do you actually believe if it's based on fear or is this self deception?
You got it wrong in the first sentence. There is no logic in believing in God. And here’s why. God is above logic. He made it. You don’t need to look at believing in God as being logical, or otherwise. It doesn’t apply. If you are approaching God and belief in God with a logical, evidentially-based scientific method then you’ll never get it. You’ll never get it. Youre looking in the wrong haystack.
It is like someone getting the vaccine and the 10 boosters without having a clue it will work.
Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom......
@@darrenscrowston9386 so if there's no logic why is Christianity true but islam is false?
@@eazyratI can’t answer or entertain that question on this platform, nor even agree to its validity.
An interviewer who loves her own voice more than that of her guest……
You are loved
Put your nails back in dear.
Eff off with that bot comment
Wow 😂
He answers mostly short..
Religion? What’s that?
So does he hang garlic on his door just in case vampires are real.
It's like you worship Ricky.....
@@garyzimmerman6316 Hardly, I'll leave the worship rubbish to you. But I do find Ricky funny and also knowledgeable.
@@truthgiver8286 Meh. Everyone worships something.
@@garyzimmerman6316 I know that is untrue you shouldn't judge everyone by your self.
@@truthgiver8286 That would simply be your opinion.
Mr. Hitchens argues that he chooses to believe. Fair enough, I don't want eternal life under any circumstances. So I choose not to.
You can’t think of _any_ circumstances in which eternal life is desirable?
@@edwardcatt2399 None in which I retain any sort of individuality. None in which I am myself in any meaningful sense, no. Being part of a heavenly host ever praising God, for example, would get boring pretty quickly to me.
Nihilism is most accurate, it seems. Unpleasant, perhaps. But so be it.
It wasn't a moment
Peter is insufferable. Always answers a question by disagreeing with something. gross
@@eazyrat Yep! Even if he has a point, there's better ways to say it. It amused me though that she'd put it in the video title.
Is Peter really a committed Christian or is he just like so many other people who just believes in God….and who “has returned to the church”…..there is a world of difference….even the Devil believes in God but he is a devil still….can anyone refer us to a podcast which clarifies the situation….???
From Mr Hitchens' contrarian known mindset, I am doubtful he truly believes in supernatural literalism.
From how he describes his thoughts, religion to him is largely a form of human philosophy and a cultural way of life. From what I can see, this is the probable thinking of many people, but they just do not say the quiet part out loud.
In other words, Mr Hitchens identifies as a religious believer because he does not believe in Marxism-Leninism, an ideology which he sees as totally rejection of religion in social culture.
Before 1917, there was not that much of such a separation in the Russian Empire. The status of (Ras)putin was a prominent example. Someone similar in UK back then would have been unthinkable.
When considering Marxism-Leninism in the Soviet context, a sizable portion of it was really about the separation of church and state, a way of life which Mr Hitchens might not find that objectionable.
Therefore, Mr Hitchens may not be that religious at all. He is religious in the sense he does not significantly reject the role of religion in UK social culture.
In contrast, religion in the USSR was somewhat controversial because the USSR never truly handled separation of church and state that smoothly. The Russian Empire and the USSR never really went through centuries of philosophical thinking that led to separation of church and state.
I miss the utterances of Christopher Hitchens ( aka The Hitch) .
Peter does his best .
I also really miss Christopher.
Well, just a few things. Christianity is not a religion. It's a way of life, it's light and it is relief that God has saved us through his grace and mercy. Religion is a something that Satan rejoices in. The God of the heaven and the earth (JESUS) can't be impressed with works. His holiness and devotional love towards us knows no bounds. As children of the light, we should always try to distance ourselves from earthly terms. The light shouldn't ever mix with darkness.
😂😂😂 yes, yes... yours is "special"😂😂😂
Is God someone to fear, or someone to love? You can't have both.❤
How profound 🙄
What if God is ultimately _oneself?_ [Not merely on the level of the human person, of course, but beyond that.] How would that affect your question and possible answer?
@@mikefoster5277 It would affect it alot. It is our view of the Divine that is crucial to how we see and experience God, and what fruit our lives produce. Christianity has very mixed results on that score! 🙂
Yes you absolutely can have both. At a trivial level, I love my wife but I'm scared of her anger, or that she might turn away from me.
You love and fear different aspects of their nature.
@@mxzyzptlk Yes. On the human level we struggle with learning to love. I doubt your wife would send you to a torturous afterlife though. God, or the Divine who is perfect in goodness, beauty and love wouldn't struggle with anger management issues! "God is light and in him is no darkness at all".
Maybe Harry Potter is real. I’d rather live believing that rather than disbelieve now and find out after death that Harry was real.
His author will tell you herself that he is fictional character.
@@solaris6070 but I choose to believe the contrary. That’s my prerogative as other human obviously do it for their own fictional deity, so why can’t I ?
Being terrified of being destroyed in flames is the wrong reason for coming to know the creator especially since hell is not found in the bible.
>> hell is not found in the bible.
@stephenhayesuk
The word translated as hell in English is sheol in Hebrew and it means grave, and hades in Greek and its used as grave there also.
Job prayed to go there when he was suffering according to the KJV...why was that?
Thing is - as with all these religious nuts - they have no idea or concept of what God is.
Religion God
I think it’s hilarious how humans still take these gatekeepers as the be all in all no worries of wisdom because they wear an old suit jacket and have an English accent 😂
I find it interesting how many people read a book from 1857 and hence believe in Darwin’s evolution. Science has learned a lot since q857 and will learn much more. Why do you think people believe in evolution still?
Looks like his brother got the brains in the family
You mean Christopher? Definitely.😊
Back to judaism 🤔
Read a Bart Ehrman or Robert M Price book..No there is no judgment .
Christianity has always been about fear and control….just read about how the powerful (popes and bishops) behaved😂. They knew the truth!
*The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom*
To say I don't believe is possibly the most lazy and pathetic statement possible
Age and cowardice. That’s what drives them to religion…
Did he stop.off at a foodbank on the way ..Hes so full of entitled shite
"it wasn't a moment". Peter is insufferable. Does he have to disagree with everything everyone says?
But he’s right - these things aren’t instantaneous epiphanies that just hit you in the face out of the blue as if you just suddenly ‘put two and two together’ _a.l.a._ an American movie; they’re the result of years of the distillation and reconciliation of myriad thoughts and conscious opinions.
@@edwardcatt2399 yeah or he just loves disagreeing with everything. Grating as hell.
Should he agree just to be agreeable?
@@JJ-sh4ue he could have quite easily there, yes. It sums him up really.
@eazyrat - so isn’t ’disagreeing with everything’ basically what _you’re_ doing now? 🤷♂️
No one knows anything about life
Religion is politics.
Wow - what a delusional.
Better hope you’re right, you might not be.