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FM24 Rest vs Recovery vs Holiday
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- Опубликовано: 14 авг 2024
- Thumbnail made by Lucas. Check out Lucas's Behance page:
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So weird that a player on rest or holiday is effected by what's on the club training schedule!
I've heard of "sympathy pain" before, but "sympathy OPC" is a new one for my vocabulary
it's just a bug among others i guess. that's why, always do manuel rest despite rest session in training.
@@wowstudio7932 it's a pity though, since typically you only rest the guys who played.
Having to alter your training is giving your whole squad a nice day off that half of them didn't earn 🙂
Hey mate, good observations. Yes, even when players are on manual rest / holiday, the amount of recovery is still, to a degree, affected by the training schedule back at the club.
I tested some other types of training sessions off-camera, and the pattern persisted. I believe this is because when players are on manual rest / holiday, there is a multiplicative boost that is applied to their recovery (eg. baseline 100 recovery x 1.5 = 150 recovery), rather than a flat amount of recovery.
Which doesn't really make sense, because when you're on a holiday the training schedule back at the club should not matter 🤔 But that's Football Manager for you, full of interesting and (sometimes questionable) discoveries.
I'm resting with double intensity, its super effective!
Resting with Double Intensity is great for OPC / Fatigue recovery! Although Rest with No Pitch or Gym Work is even better!
I love the level of detail that you go into at the start of the video, where you classify the five different types of "rest" methods. Just goes to show how the language/expression/articulation in FM needs to revamped - a lot of words seem to say the same thing, but actually have completely different results!
thanks mate, yes, FM can be full of ambiguous terminologies sometimes..
I was just thinking about this last night when making some new training schedules. I checked your page to see if you had done anything and hey presto the next morning here you are.
It's really mind-boggling the amount of variables you have to consider when balancing training and resting players - the positive effects of training on player attributes/team cohesion v maintaining physical condition. This video at least helps assess one side of that balance. The one question I have is whether 'match practice' training schedules have any role in maintaining match sharpness, or is that only impacted by real competitive games. The endless pursuit of the inquisitive mind. Thanks for the video
i remembered in one of his videos that Match Practice is one of the best training slots to use. So, would dump one in every week, even if it's a 2 match week (which is like most weeks, ha)
Your question is relevant to me because i rotate a large squad (27-30+ players) and retaining match sharpness is important to me. Bringing back to this topic - it's why I would have one Recovery slot every week too. It's really about balancing Condition and Match Sharpness, I guess.
Great video, answered all of the questions I had previously. Some interesting results in there like the double intensity and the overall + manual rest difference to rest + manual rest 👍🏻
Regarding scheduled training sessions still affecting players set for full day rests and holidays, a next question is: do these scheduled training sessions also impart some training benefits to these resting/holidaying players? If such game mechanics are intentional and not a bug, then I'm imagining what's being simulated is players set for full day rest still showing up for team practice/activities but standing with the coaches instead of doing the running around bits - something akin to participating in classroom training but no physical exercising (though participating in any team activities while on holiday is more of a stretch to the imagination). Do full day rest/holiday players gain not just partial but complete benefit from non-physically exertive activities such as Team Bonding and Community Service?
Hey bud, it's an interesting thought. Yes, since players who are resting / on holidays are still, to a degree, affected by the team's training schedule, you can imagine they are watching the training sessions on the side, or joining the training sessions via Zoom 😅 Whether such modes of participation impart growth benefits, I don't know. I haven't tested the effects on player growth in these series of tests, so can't say whether rests / holidays lead to growth.
Honestly though, I think it's just a bug / lazy game design. Rest / holiday should lead to a flat value of recovery, and the amount of recovery should be unaffected by the training schedule back at the club. If you're on holiday, you're on holiday. Your recovery should not be affected by whatever is happening back at the club.
Bro wtf I was just testing some stuff out by myself ('cause I'm having trouble with fatigue this year) and then BAM you post this
What always confuses me about the two Recovery &Rest sessions is that Recovery is supposed to reduce Injury Risk.
But Injury Risk is hard to judge as it doesn't have a value, you can have max overall condition, sharpness & no fatigue but still have a high injury risk.
So yes I agree that rest is great for reducing fatigue and increasing their condition, but will it actually help reduce injury risk as much as recovery? I wish there was a sure way to find out.
Hey bud, you are right, reduction of injury risk is another dimension of these different modes of player recovery, which I did not test in this video. Recovery session is supposed to reduce injury risk of players, but without testing, one could not be so sure. Possibly a project for me to do in the future.
@@ebfm would be nice to see some data of how training intencity corelates with injuries on and off the field!
Thats crazy, was just thinking about this today and now you've done a video, thank you 👍
Good to know that recovery does is not better at fixing fatigue or OPC, but the thing is that according to its ingame description its not supposed to be.
What recovery is meant for is lowering injury risk directly, basically: in exchange for OPC recovery and your players being more fatigued your players are made less likely to be injured. Or at least supposed to be.
An interesting test in my opinion would be whether or not recovery does actually lower the amount of injuries players take.
Nice work again Max. One thing that might have been handy to include is injury ratios. I know injuries are a bit more random, but would have been good to see what difference the different approaches, possibly, made to player injuries through training. 🤔
In the individual training section there should be an option to decide the intensity of each pitch or gym session for each player. They also need to fix how resting works because how can a player be affected by training at the club when they’re resting
Well this will give me some nice tweaks to do for revamping my players mid or end season 👌🏻
Thanks for your work Max. 👌
Did I miss something or if you manually rest your player or send them on holidays, they're still affected by the training schedule ?
Yeah that is the result, although it just not make any sense
Hey mate, good observations. Yes, even when players are on manual rest / holiday, the amount of recovery is still, to a degree, affected by the training schedule back at the club.
I tested some other types of training sessions off-camera, and the pattern persisted. I believe this is because when players are on manual rest / holiday, there is a multiplicative boost that is applied to their recovery (eg. baseline 100 recovery x 1.5 = 150 recovery), rather than a flat amount of recovery. Which doesn't really make sense, because when you're on a holiday the training schedule back at the club should not matter 🤔
Once again, thank you so much for these videos. I was wondering if you could do some sort of test that highlights the differences between telling your players to be more expressive vs discipline? I realize it’s probably a super complex topic, so I’d get it if there’s not really a way. I just wanna get a better understanding of that damn setting lol.
Hey bud,
The test setup won't be too hard - just set up 3 scenarios (control, apply Be More Expressive, apply Be More Disciplined) and run the trials. The tricky part will be selecting the appropriate statistic and interpreting the data. Which statistic do we read? Match Rating? Number of passes? Shots on target?
It can be definitely be done. I do have some other immediate plans though - watch the next video to find out!
@@ebfm you’re the man brother can’t thank you enough! Looking forward to the next video
Great video. Been a fan of yours. I am surprise that you got so little views & subscribers for such a quality video. For me, it's better than Zealand's videos. Hope that you can do some test as to whether Determination attributes does affect the match performance or not.
Thanks mate,
I haven't done any tests on the effects of Determination on match performance. But I have done a test previously which showed that there is a correlation between Determination and player development. Not sure though exactly how high Determination leads to faster development.
This makes us wonder where the line thst separates General from Individual training really is. It seems that they’re entirely separated but that doesnt make sense in real life and there are Individual Roles sessions that should connect them
My understanding is that resting or sending on holiday means they do no training so why would you test conditions such as 'Overall x3 and holiday'?
I think he suspected that general training worked entirely separated from individual. I was one of those who replied on his videos about this. It’s a poorly designed mechanic in my opinion.
I thought the video is going to be next week, been checking your RUclips channel a few times today
Great as always! Very surprising that there appears to be a cumulative effect of schedules with rest/holidays. Not entirely sure it makes sense from a simulation point of view, but will definitely be able to make use of this in future. Would be interested to know your take on whether you think this is intentionally coded in this way - or if it is a bit of an oversight in the design of the game?
Hey bud, I definitely think it's an oversight in game design.
I believe Holidays / Manual Rests grant a multiplicative modifier to the amount of recovery, using the training schedule at the club as a base.
Which is unrealistic. If you're on a holiday, then you're on a holiday. Whatever training is done back at the club should not matter.
Thank you for these videos!
I was waiting for this thanks for the video
But what about the injury risk? Thought that recovery was specifically helping with that
Max, any views on the whole Reddit, only specific attributes matter piece which is going around?
Hey bud, I just found out about the Reddit post. The post is now deleted, so can't read the full details, but the title says 'only 9 attributes matter'.
If this is true, then honestly, I would not be surprised.
@@ebfmI think making a video on the impact of ‘meta’ attributes vs ‘non-meta’ attributes would be really enlightening. More people seem to be realizing the impact of physicals.
@@HULLLU-nz3jr hey bud, I also believe that Physical attributes are the 'meta'. I remember there was an experiment done few years ago (can't remember the exact source) that showed that Physical attributes had more impact on performance compared to Technical/Mental.
bro, you are the homie
What about the semi-pro teams? Is "unavailable" the same as "rest"?
Hey bud, sorry I haven't tested the effects of 'unavailable'. Can't say what happens during those days. If I had to guess, it will be the same effect as Manual Rest / setting the Training Intensity to 'No pitch or gym work'.
is it possible that the effectiveness of recovery sessions is based on the quality of your physios?
Unrelated, but would you (or anyone else) know whether there's any correlation/causation between training rating and match performance?
Not sure I understand your test. The difference between recovery and rest (or holiday) is that recovery reduces the injury risk much more. It has nothing to do with sharpness nor fatigue
Heyy bro just wanted to say you make amazing content and appreciate your work widh uou succes ' wanted to ask you can i run the same training method that you did oj fm 23 or is there a new one ?.
Hey bud sorry for the late. Not sure why I didn't notice your comment.
My training schedule was made based on FM23, so can't say for sure whether it's effective in FM24. But given that FM24 hasn't changed much from FM23, you can certainly give it a try.
@@ebfm thanks for the reply mate , from my experience running that training schedule of fm 23 I would say it's been great so far
The OPC recovery whilst on holiday is interesting. I guess it makes sense that OPC recovery could be lower whilst jet skiing around by the beach compared to resting at the club, but it doesn't make sense that the recovery becomes worse if his teamates are doing more training whilst he's away (and that he loses less match sharpness). The effect of x1 to x3 overall or outfield sessions on match sharpness smells like a bug - I wonder if there are any weird counterintuitive results you can get with player attribute changes too, between x1 session a day and x3 sessions a day.
Not sure what the full maths is but at least for 1 overall session and 2 rests something seems backwards for sharpness. If X is what you lose from full day of rest (3.8), and Y is what you lose from full day of physical (2.7), then you can get the value of: 2.3 = ((2y/3) + (x/3))* (3/4). No idea where the extra factor of 3/4 comes from (I wonder if it's an extra multiplier for being fully away from the training ground for x3 rest), and the number of sessions corresponds to 1 rest and 2 overall, which is the wrong way around.
Hey bud, yup I definitely found it odd that more number of training sessions led to greater MS drop. Regarding the maths for the MS drop, I'm sure there are some mathematical formulas that determine the amount of MS drop, depending on the number/type of training sessions, although it will be difficult to pinpoint.
What is amusing about this video ( good/thorough as always)... your one-size training week/guide last verison opted for Rest over Recovery. I felt at the time what would suffer for your attribute bias. Then your last video highlighted the importance of.... player sharpness. Will you now rethink your training approach?! FM is not about maxing player attributes.. more about winning matches. In 24 I now have schedules for boosting 'happiness' or 'team cohesion'. My assessment is that training can be used to ramp up focus on.. moral, cohesion, attributes when needed. Another Ytuber felt that weekly creation and chance sessions would result in a 10% increase to goals. So these are levers you need to push/pull as a FM manager.... and following that insight about 90% sharpness vs 100% this needs to be built into schedules.
What would be amazing to see.... the game follows action/reaction principles.. So how to deal with slums, the ME is so detailed (amazingly so)... it shows the passes missing and shots all being fluffed... but how the F... do you reverse it. The ME is clearly showing players not gelling or struggling. Or when you are forced to use a player lacking sharpness or playing out of position.. bang.. a crazy red card tackle. Its always reacting to your actions..... I am not interested in 'actions' that break the game.. but rather what 'x' or 'x's' help losses of form. After 15 seasons Ive thrown so much at these slumps and its hard to see what helps. In these periods you can dominate possession or xG and weak teams always unlock your defense. Its easy to see the players go into a more passive state.. so even though it's counterintuitive is going more defensive only adding to the passive behaviour. So what helps more... add more DET players, boost moral. drop the worse form players, Use Plan B tactic, fitness tweaks, go more offensive to offset the slum penalty, add a few kids to get a win, Does any training help reduce goals. Can this be tested?
Hey bud, you are right, my Evidence Based Training Schedule in FM23 catered only for player growth, and nothing else (eg. recovery, team cohesion), which was intentional. My focus at the time was to create a training schedule that could maximise player growth over a season.
I am still hesitant about the use of Recovery sessions. Tests in the past few videos have shown that Recovery sessions are not as good as Rest, for the recovery of OPC & Fatigue. Yes, Recovery sessions are better than Rest for the retention of Match Sharpness, but only to a minor degree. For this reason, I have stopped using any Recovery sessions in my personal FM saves.
@@ebfm The reason I still use recovery is that it is supposed to have a separate effect on injury risk. Because injuries are so variable it's hard to tell if this is really true, so I guess I'm trusting SI despite other parts of the training system not working as they intended.
@@meanonsunday6995hey bud, yup I've also heard that Recovery is beneficial for lowering injury risk, although I can't say for sure without testing. I guess in the absence of evidence, SI should be given the benefit of the doubt (although there is a history of game features not working as intended).
Fatigue in this game is not realistic, particularly for the elite players in top leagues. Ancelotti, Pep, Klopp, they always play their best XI every week and only in February or March would few players get “fatigued” or “jaded” as they are highest professional players for a reason. So I wonder, to increase immersion as a coach of a top team, would it be okay to just not do any training session other than rest to keep my best XI always ready for match, especially with 2 games per week.
Thanks God.
I like to think when I send the players on holiday they are up to no good, which is why I should keep an eye on them whilst they rest.
Great info!
nice intro music, max.
FM24 training schedule???
Hey max- have you modified your training schedule based on these findings?
Hey bud, I have started not using any Recovery sessions. Also, when there is a week without any matches, I empty out the schedule + send everyone on a holiday for 1 week. Everyone comes back fully refreshed.
So recovery is basically useless, is as straining as most of the other sessions with no training benefits. I think you checked injury prevention last year and it didn't have any effect there either. I guess default FM schedules with triple rest session the day after match actually seem to make sense now.
Interesting findings on double intensity. Seems like it's just plain better than normal intensity, better recovery with potentially bigger benefits for development. I'll try it out.
Great content as always, please do morale >_
How do you test hundreds of matches? Do you have to manually load/reload every time or is there a script?
I use a macro program. The program is called Macro Recorder. I write my own macro sequence, so that it would load the savefile, perform the FM simulation, record the results, then reload the savefile.
If you’re not leaving general training to the Assistant Manager then he’s being paid for nothing in my opinion and giving unnecessary work to yourself. However I still watch every one of your vids 😬 I do directly give rest days and individual training though.
Does it work well in FM24? Because in FM23 manual training was very effective
How is he being paid for nothing when he literally also trains the players???
What is OPC??
Overall Physical Condition. It's the parameter that is represented with a heart-shape in the game
is there way to send players on holiday for less than a week?
No. The minimum is 1 week.
Surely this is all unintentional and broken design of the game, right? As things stand, you should be using "Rest" when you need to _recover_ during fixture congestion and you should be using "Recovery" during international breaks and such to retain match sharpness, even though you're _not actually recovering_ from anything.
... OH. That's ... a good idea actually. THANK YOU.
Who texting in the back
Max no training schedules this year?
sorry mate, no plans for a training schedule in FM24. Too many other projects to work on, such as this one!
@@ebfm no worries! Well how about this what are you using for training schedules in your saves?
@@mantorras7752Just the generic schedules set by my Assistant Manager 🤣
Honestly, I think as long as players engage in adequate amounts of training & regular match exposure, growth will be fine. Yes, growth could be min-maxed with the use of certain training schedules, but I am too lazy to switch the training schedule to custom ones every single week. So I just let the AssMan do his job.
i used the FM23 EBFM training schedule for my FM20 and it works great. Just set to normal Intensity to hopefully reduce injuries. For me, the opposite happens - used to just delegate Training, but after watching the videos, nowadays i dabble with it weekly.
The way I do it isn't scientific, but ... based on my programming lessons 20-30 years ago, I guess that if you include a training slot in within a week, its effect would be "included". Felt that way after watching hours of EBFM videos anyway, ha. Extra training sessions of the same type brings diminishing returns, and this seems to be deliberate (and good) game design. Coaches cannot just drill Attacking and nothing else, yah? 😅
So, I swap in one Recovery session (I have a 27-30 players squad most of the time. Needed to retain Match Sharpness well) and then also one GK session. Would prioritize one Match Practice session over one Resistance if it's a two match week. Just got knocked out of CL 2nd round by drawing 1-1a at home on aggregate (was winner last season) likely because of injuries to both my 5* wingers and 5* DC. So, will make sure the players train with TWO Match Practices AND TWO Resistance every week~! 👿
P.S. Oh, yah, please include Team Bonding and the Outreach one too. Team Cohesion is really important in the long term.
@@Chengyuan79Hey bud, great to hear that my training schedule from FM23 still works well in FM24.
I have recently started just using the default training schedules set by the AssMan. I am too lazy to switch the schedules every week to a custom schedule 😅 And since I'm paying my AssMan, he better do some work.
I'm not sure what's the best method to use according to anysituation tbh :(
manual rest your players for 1 day as soon as match is finished ..if fatigue is not 'fresh' anymore, rest 2 days intead of 1. (fatigue is never 'fresh' for young players
Hey bud, to simplify things, when you're going through a busy schedule, fill the entire week with Rest sessions, and either send your players on a Manual Rest / change the Training Intensity to No Pitch or Gym Work / send players on a Holiday (the first two methods have the same effect). This will supercharge OPC/Fatigue of your players. MS will drop a little bit in exchange, but when you're in the middle of a busy schedule you wouldn't be concerned about MS anyway. Relevant explanations are at 18:00.