Why High Stats Aren't Better | The Jingliu Theorem (Honkai Star Rail)
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- In any RPG, stats are everything. Base Power of abilities can be made incredibly weak by the sheer virtue of having low stats. In a vaccuum, having low stats means you are worse than a character that has a lot. But this is ignoring the multiple layers of complexity of why higher stats exist in the first place, to balance abilities. With the nature of powercreep, it brings another dimension of character balancing that a character that is good now due to stats, will be worse in the upcoming future due to said stats and vice versa of how stats can be the crux of a character's resurgence.
This is a video covering a repeated set of patterns ingrained in the laws of mathematics and game balancing overtime. In Star Rail, nobody is more notorious at this than Jingliu.
Join me as we take a journey through the characters that prove why high stats can be a blessing or a curse.
0:00 - What Is The Jingliu Theorem?
02:02 - When It's Done Well (Xueyi)
04:03 - When The Execution Is Off (Yanqing)
06:04 - Why It Affects The Future (Jingliu)
09:00 - Outro
#honkaistarrail #honkaistarrailguide #hsrguide 
Игры
The beauty of HSR is in the fact that instead of power creep it has expanded options. Characters have the ability to become more or less useful with every update and game mode. Even Yan has benefitted from aventurine and the break meta made sushang more viable than before. I can see a moment where jingliu rises up the tier list again due to a new relic or something. Also, I've seen zero cycles with pretty much everyone, so let's not forget how much drop rng plays a factor😅
yes powercreep is real but a lot of it is done in a very clever way. they slow it down as much as possible, like jing yuan having ridiculously high scaling but lacking the supports so that down the line he isn't completely irrelevant but in the past he would be in line with other characters due to the lack of them.
"instead of powercreep"
sure
@@waveman047 I agree that powercreep in HSR is slow, but Jingyuan is totally useless now, especially if you have Acheron. Jingyuan is a special case of powercreep not only because Acheron makes him obsolete but also because of his innate mechanics - his Lighting Lord's slow dumbass is seriously holding him back. Lightning Lord is probably what made him obsolete more than Acheron's existence I'd argue.
Other than that, I don't find other cases of extreme powercreep in HSR. Even Seele can 1 or 2 cycle off element late stage MoCs with a sustain, 0 cycle with no sustains. Perhaps Luocha? But then again, his free unlimited SP mechanic will always be timeless for casual players.
@@Shay_D_Mannsaying JY is totally useless is very stupid💀 He has a hard time 0 cycling, but he is nowhere near useless. I will say he only really needs either sparkle or robin with Tingyun to do damage
@@tuananhdang7385 Hard time?! He almost can never 0 cycle because his Lightning Lord is so mechanically flawed. He’s weak to CC’s and has no way of advancing his LL faster. The dude needs help.
Sure he can clear content, but everything he does, Acheron does better. That’s literally the definition of Power creep. So please. Spare me the fanboy bs.
I always thought it was unfair for Jingliu to have so many things going for her when she was released. Gigantic crit and attack buffs, no skill point usage, and good synergy with Bronya. But by the time Sparkle came along i realized that she invested in the wrong self buff stats lol. So many older characters benefits from Sparkle/Tobin like Clara and Seele, but Jingliu just doesn’t.
a lot of the advantages came with the lower scaling which, looking back, had a limited shelf life now with the context of all those buffers that made it less relevant
Then there's Blade with poor scaling & no buffers. He feels like a self sufficient Sub DPS rather than a Main DPS, which is what I think they intend him to work for the foreseeable future, especially with the release of Jade.
I really do hope that sometime in the future they make a hp-scaling based meta so he can become somewhat relevant again as a hypercarry since the thing I very much dislike about dual dps teams is the amount of resources and farming it requires
its more of a necessary evil atp since an hp scaler can quickly swerve out of control since they are already unkillable by virtue and an hp buffer turning that to offense is going to be really hard to pull off.
@@waveman047 since all endgame content is on a timer being tanky wouldn't really be hard to balance
@@elijahjarobiyea exactly. Making a team of aventurine, fu xuan, huo huo and gepard isnt gonna clear endgame modes fast enough even if it woukd be unkillable basically. I dont think itd really be that hard to make some sort of hp to dmg buffer.
doesnt matter, if we assume this harmony is an hp buffer, then its going to be much more manageable to get hit thereby allowing 3 harmony + 1 destruction teams which is particularly really strong no matter what it will be in the future, doesnt even matter if the dps can scale off hp at that point.
consolidating damage and sustain in one single slot is terrifying, thats why we have clara on a leash.
like imagine if they made an abundance dps. it becomes a question of how much fragility you can get away with to boost dmg to an insanely high level, robin particularly threatens this.
The major problem of jingliu isn’t her low damage scaling, but her 100 turn advancement, buffs on her wears off way too soon (unless you uses aura buffer such as ruan Mei or robin)
that isnt too big of a problem to play around since shes so fast it was bound to happen, same with others that do double turn bronya, even if she can hold buffs longer the problem is she already has so much stats it was always going to be less impactful than someone with a higher scaling.
like you said, use robin and or ruan mei. it would genuinely be crack for nearly every unit to use both, but less so for jingliu and more extremely: xueyi.
There are other ways to increase damage like dropping def or resistance. Characters with already high stats like jingliu can benefit from a strong debuffer, it's just our only good one is pela.
We got SW too which would help with making sure Jingliu can actually be viable against non ice weak enemies. Only issue is shes single target.@@siege_sensei
@@siege_sensei even if she can benefit from def/res shedders so will every other character
Or just more units like Jiaoqu who just have the buffs be on the enemy unit. (Debuff)
Nice video. Now you've got me interested in the Jing Yuan theory lol
Basically any character with insane self buffs are doomed to fail because they are gonna be balanced out by lowering their base stats or multipliers which in result will affect their long run with future supports that buff insanely high, but because the of the lowered multipliers and stats they are gonna benefit much worse than someone who doesnt get any self buffs, but has good scalings on skills and base stat, meaning that they are ESPECIALLY stronger with future supports.
Less self buffs=more room for future supports
A lot of self buff=capped by their own buffs making it hard to break the limit
I would say that good examples are JY and Clara(although Clara was good since day1) since they have pretty good scalings, but are bound to fall off without proper supports. JY imo aged really well. Having Robin or Sparkle boosts his damage by half, he benefits from them so much better than most units
not exactly doomed and all encompassing other characters, theres a lot of facets of characters including utility that are a lot more important if their numbers don't hold up.
@@waveman047 I feel like utility right now is not very well implanted. I don’t think characters with self buffs are automatically doomed. JL has an insane starter kit that easily gets buffed by practically any support, but I think in a long run she is gonna benefit less from supports. FF on her own is really bad and there are literally barely any support that work with her, but the ones that DO work buff her damage by half and even more. Its just better to have a dedicated support that boosts your potential to the roof instead of having multiple
Im just glad Jingliu is good since she is my favorite character. I do think it does not help Jingliu has no relic set that really fits her great outside RA.
Next : why speed is everything | The Seele Theorem
More like firefly theorem
Weirdly enough I think firefly would be a better pick for that
the support theorem
Dude the video was very cool. Very critical. Hope your channel grows even more
I think qq didn't make the list because while she does insanely buff both atk and dmg% which are highly common buffs and pays for it with scaling, she gets to use sparkle and fu xuan and eat their crit buffs which at the moment are pretty rare and hugely valuable for the crit starved qq. Also helps that erudition light cones very rarely have crit :(
qingque was *very* close to be added since she doesnt really have any more ways to get upgraded now that sparkle exists. but those advantages in stats are entirely luck based which is a separate issue altogether that she still gets benefits from dmg% if your luck is horrendous.
Erudition cones rarely have crit? Half of them (excluding 3*s) have some form of crit buffing though.
Those free crit stats are not a trivial thing to dismiss. It is very very hard to get both crit rate and crit damage and a free crit rate character can just invest into a crit damage body and crit damage weapon. Even if you roll very well on your crit rate substats you will still be well below overcapping on crit rate except on the most insane godly relic pieces that almost no one will ever see. Currently her best support is Bronya but she is not perfect for her because the buffs do not last. Not until E6 does Bronya become close to perfect because her dmg buffs do not last for all turns. Ruan Mei is her best second harmony team mate because of the dmg buff aura she provides.
High stats aren't necessarily better. High stats don't matter in the face of being off element and having poor synergy with the limited Harmonies. But to be real, it's all about element matching. People complain about Jingliu being "powercrept" but they use her in non-ice stages. Sure, maybe back then, brute forcing with her is possible, but there's a reason why DPS's who aren't on element sucks and it's because of the 20% or 40% damage resist a boss/elite may have.
I'm not implying that we should pull every 5 star DPS to cover our elements, but at least level up and use the 4 stars and standard banner characters like Clara to cover weakness elements.
fun fact: jingliu was notoriously used to brute force through ice res because her stats were just brutal back then and it wasn't particularly difficult to pull off. usually involving pela and her sig but still.
the spirit of what you said is true though, elements are huge
@@waveman047 This was before they buffed the hell out of MoC enemies. I did the same. It honestly made the element mechanic redundant and made the game a massive joke. But Brute forcing worked until bosses got 1 million HP per phase. Though, I’m not complaining about these HP buffs, because it forces us to play by the game’s mechanics rather than straight up bypassing them.
Being on element and using the right synergies helps me clear every MoC 12 with a zero cycle so far without limited Eidolons. I genuinely feel like they just want us to play on element more than anything. I don’t feel compelled to pull for characters to get my zero cycle clears.
im using here in brute force MOC. still can 0 cycle .
Ive been saying this for months. Glad someone else also saw the writing on the wall!
I can’t wait to run Jade, Blade AND Jingliu, the worlds first triple-DPS comp, it’ll be so bad, but I will be having a great time
1st release i e6 her. the. rerun s5. don't care about meta. she maybe not the strongest but she is the prettiest both design and face.
Would you mind sharing your UID?
Bro thinks he's false swipe gaming
In all honesty nice vid
youtube is just a huge circle of stealing ideas
How good was Jinglu actually?
Wdyt about firefly ? Did she going into same situation?
I feel like it's the same situation as Kafka, as more break characters release the stronger Firefly will become, just like how more dot characters release Kafka still being a viable option even months later (similar with topaz and FuA). The only thing that would screw them over is if hoyo releases a character with a kit same as theirs but just better.
its really easy to powercreep firefly since she runs off the idea that shes just pure unfiltered break related numbers and has nothing else barring forced implant outside of that to offer. its as simple as someone having higher numbers or similar numbers with an extremely strong utility.
she doesnt fall into the jingliu theorem, since break effect meta is currently still in its infancy and hasnt matured yet to show nuances of high be stat and high toughness dmg + wbe. they could go in either direction of making high wbe less good or high toughness damage less good, im not placing my bets on it yet.
Jing Yuan theorem waiting room 👀
As a former pokemon player now star rail player, i clicked on this video immediately
I think Firefly would fall into is this Theorem. She's kinda 2.0 Jingliu, her case might be worse than Jingliu since Super Break has so little stats that boost it. Most built FF should have 500% BE, which is a lot but also way pass diminishing return. Plus, FF doesn't have the multiplier herself, it's HMC who provide the multiplier.
Same, I also think such, because she buff her own stats herself, and sorry to the FF glazers but without Ruan mei, she is ass to play (I'm not joking, my E0 FF, as soon as I with draw ruan mei deals less dmg than my himeko in moc, that's saying something)
no is not FF barely has dmg by her own the only thing that deal dmg is her trace and let's be honest is pretty trash scaling FF has very low scaling so she has more higher ceiling than everyone RN but it going to be locked behind new units JL has way more scaling than FF, FF is just tied to HMC/JL while JL can be team up with a lot of chars, Summary FF is trash now wait for future units FF is only good is your Hmc build is cracked and you have RM other wise is a trash unit unlike JL is not the same situation
@@claudiowiseman8488 That's why I said Firefly's case might be worse.
@@silvalgalewalker503 not that mean that FF is goin to be better in the future since she's Bad now, she can't be worse than now
@@claudiowiseman8488 You should use "," and "." to make it easier to read your comment
I feel like they might actually avoid giving a support high crit rate buffs in future because it’d be a pain to farm two entirely different sets for a character, one with high CDamage and one with high CRate. Yukong’s damage window is also really awkward to play around. Sparkle’s LC and Fu Xuan’s talent give small CRate buffs but they’re relatively minor in comparison to the massive Dmg%, CDamage% or Attack buffs of other supports
Maybe they’ve done this in Genshin though, I’m not as aware about it.
Also, based siobhan pfp
Imo.
No character in this game is another one 100%, as each each has thier own scalings, kit, nuances.
Each has thier strengh and weaknesses.
One example is between Jl and acheron.
Yes acheron is THE dps BETWEEN the two ( no argue about that part ).
But she still isn't Jl.
I wanna see an acheron being tanky ( relatively) while having built in cv+hp drain mechanics. And being the enabler of hp drain mechanics ( Jl talent ).
At the same time i wanna see a Jl having a built in Final dmg multiplayer ( Acheron main reason why she has a ridiculous dmg seiling) + 20 res pen + universal toughness bar breakning. ( For the sake of fairness.
Each unit will not reach hes " end " and will never has hes " dream " team completed. As everyone can benefit from everything. What stops Jl from benefiting from acherons supports? ( same as Jy, yanqing, seele, blade etc )
Ngl the mention of the jingyuan theorem interest the hell out of me since his rep of being "mid" even though he arguably gets the most indirect buffs from anyone
personally, i wish everyone stopped talking about him. i enjoy playing him, he hasn't left my team for over a year but whenever i see people saying stuff, which sometimes are straight up lies, about him, it's annoying. that being said, i am 100% in the jy theorem waiting room.
@@Ilovejohnnyjoestar30Exactly, most of the time I just avoid anything with JY on social media beside his arts even if he's my fav because I just know the that the comments are gonna talk shit about him.
@@khoinguyen4975 it really is sad. hopefully they move on from him. it's been a year and i really don't want to continue like this...
@@Ilovejohnnyjoestar30the unfortunate thing is it probably won't. It became too much of a meme that it transcends it to the point people genuinely think JY can't clear content (which is absolutely not true) in fact he's been my most consistent DPS on my account. Same as you guys I just get my content from art and or for gameplay stuff jingyuan Reddit because everywhere else is unbearably
@@orein1880 hard to enjoy characters with people breathing down your neck but jy is worth it, so we can enjoy alone ig.
Glad i skip jingliu on her rerun lol people overrated her "easy to build" when she has much lower ceiling and dont work well with other support that that tend to buff crit/atk with how diluted her self buff is
False Swipe Gaming reference!?
La verdad, desde que salió Jingliu sospeché q sufriría rápido powercreep x tanto crit rate q obtenía.. al menos en hsr aun no hemos llegado al punto q personajes viejos son inútiles 😔
For the record i disagree with the takes in the video, but liked+sub anyway bc i feel critical analysis like this is important and useful
i expected this lol but i still pulled for her bc she's so pretty & easy to build
facts i would still let her stab me
Does him cooked?
I thought this was some falseswipe 's videos about pokemon lol
I could sense something was wrong with some of my DPS's, and this video was my bingo moment. I _knew_ I wasn't crazy.
I never really used Yanquing, probably because it took forever for me to pull him, but I did level him to 80 and now that we have the Divergent universe, I might use him just for fun.
I have Jingliu. E0. And, the fact of the matter is, she, like a lot of Destruction and Hunt, is handicapped to a certain degree without her Signature LC, which I do NOT have. Vars put it best when he said that "the LC's are [buffers] support characters unto themselves." I kinda had Jingliu on the bench most of the time for awhile after PF came out, but now I'm trying to build a Jingliu hypercarry team, so I'm revisiting her. Provided you can have ice weakness, she works great _when_ she works. As a main DPS, you're going to be using her for damage, NOT freeze, as needlessly stacking EHR on relics would be deleterious to her damage output. And really, if you're reading this, I implore you to actually use Pela or Silver Wolf when you're using Jingliu, as their def-down is a huge boon for Jingliu: instead of buffing you, you're debuffing the enemy. And the debuff doesn't require them to stay alive to stay in place, like Harmony's buffs usually do.
I was legitimately going kookoo with Xueyi a while back, her Ultimate was dealing like 3000 and her damage was a lot lower than my other units, and I was super confused. Put her on the bench, tried her again, and still not enough. I dunno if there's a Break Effect light cone somewhere in the game that's supposed to be her BiS, but I haven't seen one. I do want to be using her, but I am still not sure how. I have Firefly now, so I have a main DPS that can deal Break dmg.
Blade is an interesting case study because he's the only HP scaler, and he works best in a team with Jingliu for HP draining in order to proc that talent as often as possible. Perhaps Topaz could buff him, but then you're trying to run two sub-DPS's, and at that point you could choose someone else.
In conclusion, Hoyo does this by design because if every character was built exactly the same and needed the exact same gear then there would be no incentive to build multiple teams. I like that the game incentivizes team synergizing, and determining who complements who better, but at the same time it can at times cross into a point of being frustrating to build characters, especially with the relic farming.
The main thing for a dps is a scaling percentage. Xueyi has huge damage buff but very low scaling percentage that probably no support will ever buff. It wouldn't be a problem if it was relatively small decrease but it's 2 or even 3 times worse than average so this 240% dmg boost can't even compensate the difference.
But yeah, now she is good for Super Break. Still Boothill and Firefly both are much much better.
xueyi's versatility was the main point of that, crit xueyi is really competitive since buffing dmg% is still not high enough to be too overbearing on her 240% base (even at 1.5x, her talent alone, which goes off nearly every turn is 405% ATK scaling) to say nothing of her break damage in the crit teams being absurd.
then we can hop on the superbreak discussion and she still deals that much dmg on crits and even better since the crit focused carries are out of their element due to lack of break effect and the only dmg% buffer being RM, but she remains unaffected. worse than a limited 5 star is hardly a bad thing, especially compared to those two who have a much harder time being crit carries.
@@waveman047 Well, I guess Xueyi is worse than Sushang in being hybrid and Super Break dps. And worse than QQ against quantum weak enemies. Her FuA is rare and very limited even with E6. She can do almost anything but not that great. And pretty much the only dps in the game who significantly falls off against off-element stages (which is funny 'cause she ignores elements with her ult). Even Himeko still can consistently trigger her FuA when her teammates break enemies. And on top of that Xueyi is incredibly hard to build.
So I would say there's not much potential for Xueyi in the future. She is fun to play but far from being an optimal choice for any kind of scenarios.
@@latenter1428571 Xueyi damage buff works really well with Tingyun's benediction (it's damage scales from Xueyi's buff). So if similar, but better support will come, Xueyi will have a huge benefit from it
no, sushang is much worse as a crit carry. her scalings are not that good at all and isnt backed up by a high stat so even then its off the table.
the main benefit of sushang in nearly every team, superbreak or no, is having a lot of sp efficiency so someone else can use skill and do dmg with her (hmc for superbreak and clara for crit).
but it is true that xueyi is incredibly limited in elemental matchups, this is like top 1 reason shes not the 4 star dps that can crush some limited 5 stars, because shes extremely capable of being one, they just dont do it enough for it to be the norm (check her cycle clears every time a quantum weak enemy appears, it's absurd).
@@waveman047 I mean every niche character clears with low cycles just because of a few nerds but if you look at the average QQ is destroying Xueyi. And QQ is more than capable to clear off-element stages really fast (with Sparkle's help, of course). Never saw mono-quantum teams with Xueyi in PvP, it's always QQ or Seele.
Sushang crit potential is definitely not great but physical break is stronger and more common. Though even without it her speed and action advance make her at least comparable to Xueyi if not better.
Imo Xueyi desperately needs new mechanic like dealing toughness damage to already weakness broken enemies. Most of her damage comes from FuA that can't be triggered many times (remember why Himeko wasn't great in MoC until the current iteration?). Ult can be useful for Super Break but it's not cheap and characters with bounce mechanic are much better due to high toughness damage just by their skills.
The false swipe gaming pipeline
The highest atk in my account rn belongs to robin
Well said, great analysis!
I don't understand how trial acheron,fu xuan,ruan mei does more dmg than jingliu,fu xuan,ruan mei besides i only left hsr for four to three months now i come back just to experience pain i recently got ruan mei but i still have only one team that is just usefull against ice weaknesses and with no other supports and healers im stuck at every part that needs at least two teams
Should i pull for Firefly? since im using ruan mei with jingliu im not sure whether i get her or wait for new dps
For Firefly you need to build up a break effect team from scratch, so it's a lot of investment to get her going. But she is more versatile than Jingliu because she can implant Fire weakness in enemies, and she can reduce toughnesses regardless of elements. Her ideal teammates are very easy to get (harmony MC is free, Gallagher is in the same banner as Firefly, and you already have Ruan Mei). So she is currently the best DPS to get, but if you just want someone who is plug and play into your existing team, you may be better off with Argenti or Jade
Neat video. But I think one of your assumptions is wrong. You seem to draw a hard line between extra stats and damage multipliers, whereas they both only are numbers. Sure the former is what most boosts are made of, but not only are the latter possible too for futur supports, we already have a precedent of it called tingyun.
good point, adding multipliers like that would actually be relevant would be a new niche entirely though. since tingyun's had only one scenario (xueyi) where it actually mattered.
wait im so confuse so too much stat but not enough scallings is bad is that the vid D:. but in the vid u refer xueyi as a good example but the rest are bad, im so confuse sry. technically they can make jingliu better if yes they release a furina who can drain the team hp and buff raw scalling which can improve jingliu no?
Xueyi good because her self buffs are stats that are rare
i dedicated almost two minutes to explain xueyi, and the furina thing is not to buff raw scaling but to buff the niche of draining self and team hp in general to the point that jingliu actually has better buffs that only her gimmick can provide, it wont actually be because of her raw scaling suddenly being good.
@@waveman047 oh thx. i watched the thing but my brain just understand nothing like the info enter then leaves sr
@@waveman047 also in genshin most units pair with furina dont even drain their hp and she is almost or is best in slot so it might work for jingliu too since she has mini hp drain which is a plus already but not much if the hsr furina has massive hp team drain on her own
Question, what would happen to jingliu, if they added an shen he or yu jin ?
shenhe would have to be the best buffer in the game but only for ice (which misha has a better future with more than anything). for yunjin idk what you mean by that. just a spd buff is pretty unecessary.
@@waveman047 more of the flat stacks thing
@@waveman047 we have asta for speed buff already too
is this an FSG inspired title?
this entire channel is an FSG version of HSR at this point
I think Jingliu could be buff in the future by releasing a sp that use their skill like IL but the more sp they consume the larger the buff is
another sparkle meta incoming, in fact this would resurge some weird archetypes like 3 harmony more than jingliu, depends on the stat.
@@waveman047 It would be a nice buff for Jingliu and Blade, especially him because he already traded his sp efficiency for both lower dmg ceiling and floor
the recent Jingliu doomposting is crazy, mine is still easily doing 3-4 cycle clears in any MoC besides the current second side, bcs that boss was designed to make anybody but Firefly and maybe Himeko struggle
Bro thinks he's FSG
It's a good video tho
Dont use sparkles theme again, its so hard to hear what you're saying, the music is draining all my attention