Great Video! Thanks Glen. content like this is what makes it really worth tuning into your channel. each volume definitely had its own attributes. they all sounded good to me. just different for different mixes. listening to it, i wanted to blend the super quiet with the super loud together for a nice full spectrum! (especially with the bass guitar so quiet and muddled in the mix- or was i listening to weird bass frequency guitar off-time reverberations? i hate those). do another one for solos! (i've noticed power cranked power tubes often sound better for leads) the only thing that changed was some pretty simple eq, almost the same as if we adjusted the amp settings itself. I've found it depends on the amp from my own tests. i have an old Blue voodoo that falls apart at louder volumes (as a lot of older-cheaper amps do) but excels at recording at quiet levels- better than my more boutique-y amps. that was a surprise for me since i threw the Crate into the tests last minute just to be thorough. wasn't expecting it to sound good! but at quiet levels it hung with triple rectifier, panama inferno, and V3 better than fine. All that talk about pushing the power tubes only applies to really old amps such as plexi's that need to be pushed to get that glorious overdriven tube breakup. modern amps don't need that. the distortion comes from the preamp tube section. The way i like to think of modern amps, is the louder you put the master volume the more your using the power tubes section of the amp. i literally think of it as a blend knob, like i'm blending in a slightly colored preamp/boost. and the same with the channel level. it's a blend knob too, adding in its own slightly colored flavor. gotta find the right blend between the two amps. (this is only for recording- where i can record at any volume i want of course- live has gotta be loud so... it turns back into a volume knob) If we subtract the fact that louder moves more air, and puts out an increase bass response from any cabinet you play through (some cabinets handle this better than others) what we're really getting is more coloration in sound from the power tubes as we turn up the master volume. this could be desirable- it could not be. i've found every amp has a sweet spot in its power tube section (some spots larger, some spots smaller) where it is still very tight and articulate without much 'extra' dynamics like breathiness, bass, or midrange. the rectifier has a very broad sweet spot. thing sounds great at super loud levels. makes it a fantastic live amp. the Blue voodoo has a relatively small sweet spot that's sits on the quiet side. The panama inferno also has a medium sweet spot that sits right in the middle. it's not great super loud, not great super quiet- possibly because of the KT-88 tubes. Haven't really experimented enough with the Carvin V3 to peg it for sure. But the cabinet matters too. i position my cabinets on a platform that is about 20 inches off the ground to give the bass room to expand out before reflecting off the floor. this seems to give a smoother, more usable bass sound. it also helps smooth out the differences between amp volume levels. switching the same amp between different cabinets is gonna affect how it plays at different volumes too. but this is a great vid to counter the "louder is better" axiom with tube amps. sometimes yes, sometimes no. depends on the amp, the speakers, and what's best for the mix and style of metal. for metal you want lots of headroom so you're NOT pushing the power tubes to the limit. that's where the 150 watts of triple rectifier and the 180 watts of the Herbert Diesel sound awesome. you're not supposed to crank them up louder, they're supposed to sound better at the same loudness. After experimenting with comparing a mini-rectifier to a triple rectifier, a iron ball to a power ball 2, a grandmeister 36 to a tri-amp, and a mark V 35 to a mark V 90; none of the little guys hold a candle to their full size compatriots. They're all good amps, but i wouldn't use a mini-amp for recording metal rhythm. (although the mini-rectifier was the best classic rock amp i've played on). really need that full circuitry and headroom! (if anyone reads this i'll be super amazed! you might be as bored or idiosyncratic as me!)
Glenn, were you zoomed in on the waveforms? If not, you're recording too hot. Analog saturation pre-converters usually messes the signal up. Unless that's the effect you are going for...
i was so busy writing this i almost didn't hear the Fed ex guy delivering a used Little Labs IBP (analog phase sweep, di, and reamp)! luckily he started pounding pretty loud and it broke me out of my haze! Can't wait to try the thing out. Such a neat device. i'm literally giddy just thinking of what i can do with it!
The only time I recorded in a studio with my Bugera 6262 Infinium + Behringer BG 412V cab, the studio guy went in the recording booth and put the amp's lead channel volume knob on 5 (I was playing in the control room, not in the recording booth). I asked him "are you sure?" (I only go to 2 live and it's loud AF!) and he said "it's ok, that shouldn't be too loud". I played a chord to test the mics and, to cut a long story short, I ended up doing all the tracking with the volume a little below 2. XD
As the volume went up I won't say the highs went down but they definitely compressed! I still liked 120 the best because of the crunch added by said compression. It would be completely different if you wanted twang, or spank. I have a middle pickup and contour footswitch for that ; )
This video was good but Glenn I think we all know that all of these 4 sounds pale in comparison to using a Strat with a heavily mid-scooped Line 6 Spider turned up to 10
Unless its the Line 6 Spider lll 120w or 200w version with 400 Rock Star presets. That doesn't emulate it dominates. Keep the Helix and The Kempers lol. I found in a mix its cuts through, its doesn't go out of phase, like the overdrives don't interfere with eachother and muddy up like lets say a Vox and Marshall are put side by side. Theyve made some stinkers but a few sleepers too
I think when recording highly distorted guitars, if you’re really going to crank the shit out of your amp you need to compensate by turning the gain down a bit. Otherwise the compression from the distortion coupled with the compression from the power amp and the speakers being pushed too hard all gets too much. If you were doing a more classic rock style sound like AC/DC or led zeppelin then those sounds definitely benefit from the amp being pushed hard.
Most amps in that early era lacked a master volume, which meant overall volume was dependent on how hard you drove the preamp, to get lead tones, that was maxed and fucking loud if you were playing any amp,so they were definitely moving some serious air.
Glenn! I just wanted to let you know I started recording a band for the first time ever last night in my home studio and put so many of your tips into action. The best part is, I just listened to the pilot tracks again and realized the bassist has the best meter in the entire band! I'm totally serious but figured you might find it funny anyways. Thanks so much for your helpful videos!
wow.... I can honestly say I'm kind of shocked at how little difference the volume made in recording.... They all sounded a little bit different, but it was not the massive difference I expected. Good stuff Glenn!
For some reason super quiet sounded most pleasant for me; sorta like modern version NWOBH and it also leaves little wiggle room for dynamic range to make things bit more interesting.
That's interesting, because I thought that was the only one that was unusable. Seemed too thin or harsh for my tastes, but I can definitely see it being used for that now!
I push my amp as loud as I think is reasonable in my small, but treated, room. My H&K is switchable from 40W down to 1W and you'd be surprised just how loud 1W is in a small space.
I've got the 100w Katana head that is switchable between 100/50/.5 watts, and I'm honestly shocked at how loud it can get on just the .5 watt setting...
Ryan Wright in reply to both of ur comments, I have a 15 watt Laney irt studio head switch's from 15 to 1 and 1 in a small room is fucking loud. I wonder what louder in that setting. A 1 watt tube amp or 5 watt ss
not sure, but if you haven't checked out the Katana amps, you probably should at some point... they'll change your preconceptions of what SS is capable of. :)
Ryan Wright I haven't, seen alot of vids but haven't played one yet just might today when I go in to pickup some strings if it's good enough might pick one up which one has the most effects and is it battery opperatable
Whenever I hear a Katana I'm impressed by the sound and versatility for the price - I still can't quite get over my natural bias toward tubes, even though I know its becoming increasingly meaningless.
Great video using the SPL meter. I thought the "Normal volume" sounded the best, which just proves that years of experience allows you to understand these fine details. On a personal note, the 120 dB "stupid loud" is about the same volume as a jet engine running at idle, which I'm familiar with as it's a noise I'm exposed to daily at work. Without ear plugs, it's damn uncomfortable, and would do permanent damage to your hearing very quickly. That's something your viewers need to be aware of. If they feel the need to crank an amp up to ear-bleeding levels, put the cab in it's own room or wear ear plugs.
Paul Yeah 120 is hovering around the pain threshold,and only idiots don't wear hearing protection. Anything over 85 you really need hearing protection to protect yourself.
yup, the only one that wouldn't require hearing protection was the super quiet 65db. at 90 i'm wearing mine. (used to work on jets too- double hearing protection!)
Flight deck guy here too. I think I have eustacian tube disfunction or something. Ears always filling with pressure and not releasing unless I hold my nose and blow. I’m trying to preserve whatever hearing I may have left for sure!
When nice and quiet - there's more room to play with, the more cranked guitars are limited, too much actual (bad) distortion - good luck working with that :D
At 120dB you can really hear the cabinet involvement. I think it breathes new life into the tone adding nice overtones that weren't there in the lower volumes.
Definitely thought the super loud version was too boomy. Even in the full mix, it was the only one that stood out to me where I thought "oh, that is not so good." The quietest one sounded fine in the mix, even if on its own it lost some low end. Once you brought the bass and drums in, that didn't matter any more. Definitely a cool experiment!
I agree, I didn't like the two in the middle at all. The quiet one and the loud one sounded pretty different from each other, but both were pleasant and usable in their own way. The others just... kinda sounded crappy in both contexts.
The quieter it is, the fizzier the top end is. This explains why impulses are always fizzy as hell, too, the volume is just too low when people make them.
Have you ever thought of re-recording "The Eagle Has Landed"? It seems that you continue to learn more every year, I think it would be cool to hear your progress (or changes in recording preference) with this familiar track! Cheers from Montucky.
I’m at the stage where I’m curious if my guitar needed to be that loud and thank you Glenn for the examples. I think the loudest setting sounded the worst, was the quietest. But the super quiet and the normal settings were the best. Felt like there was a lot more definition in the tone of the guitar.
Honestly I liked the super quiet the best in the mix. Which is funny because on my current recordings I've just been experimenting with turning the volume up a bit. Sounds great soloed, but I just started the recording so I haven't listened in a mix yet. Oddly your "medium loud" sounds like crap while both quiet and normal sound great. You'd think being right in the middle it wouldn't be so bad.
Mike Fox, I think what's happening is there's less low end in the super quiet one, so it sounds more distinct from the bass than the others. That said, it also makes the performance sound less unified, so I have to say the normal one sounds best overall to me. Not too thin, not too thick, just right. But it is weird how the medium one sounded worse than all the others.
I refer to your "How to record heavy guitar" video series quite a bit and you say that we want to push the amp until there is speaker excursion! Not too much, and not too little! What can I say Glenn, you are the reason I'm micing up a cab right now instead of being an AX8 owner or something else.. Seriously, thank you. Anyway to my ears, the normal volume sounded best across the board, isolated and in a mix. This is a great video and I'm eager to test this out for myself in my own recordings.
Thanks VM, this is a major question I have... mean I had ! Quiet seams to give a bit more high frequencies. But for me, interest of Cab/mic capture is to get non-linear things and unpredictible results, to face new problems and push each time a bit deeper my understanding. The best sound i've ever heard was in Orleans (France) trying a full handmade head. 120W tubes, no noise a 80% volume... and i head the distorsion of V30s... Did the effect of facing a jumbojet engine. Just to say volume can provide an extra "something" if you're head is high-end quality sound.
Great video, Glen. Living in an apartment I have to use a Torpedo Cab but it sounds good. In a good studio room I would crank the amp for power amp saturation. Keep these videos coming.
When it comes to heavy guitar (or really with clean guitar too) I've generally had a basic rule to go by, and that's to turn the amp as loud as it can possibly be without the volume causing other problems like mic clipping or other equipment issues, or too many room reflections, or some other technical issue. An amp sound be fairly loud so that the speaker is at peak performance, the resonance of the cab is doing it's thing and you get a pretty good signal to noise ratio on your tracks. When I record with my 100 watt Marshall (I have a 30th anniversary), I typically set it to 50 watt mode, and crank the master volume up to around 4-5 or so where the amp really opens up.
I'm not so convinced that it's the power section making the difference here. While most power sections _do_ act as a compressor when they're pushed really hard, what we're hearing there sounds more like thermal compression in the speaker coil - it's as though the low end becomes more apparent the louder you get. If it was coming from the power section, we'd also have heard clipping/fuzziness in the lower frequencies, but all those clips seemed to be pretty clear of that to me. Also...Glenn - how well-isolated is the mic from the acoustic coupling effect (ie vibrations from the floor)? I'm guessing that might come into play too in terms of the low end.
I don't hear any power tube clipping either, but as far as I know that's the reason why high wattage amps are still being used, to push the speaker hard enough to resonate properly but with no power stage distortion.
Yes, that's exactly it - I know that thermal compression in the coil makes a massive difference, but I'm yet to work out whether the extra volume brings a coupling effect with the microphone too, which would obviously colour the result. I don't have the luxury of Glenn's facilities, and I'm not really up for a visit from the plod for turning my amps up to ludicrous volumes to try it out ;)
I don't concur with you, dear digiscream. I got a JCM 2000 DSL201 all tube amp, that blew the socks of big 100 watt tube stacks, because the power section worked harder. The overdrive got a richness you don't get with only pre amp gain. But I must say, that was in live settings, not in a studio, because it's a bit too fizzy to use in a studio.
Carlos, I think you've misunderstood what I'm saying. You're talking about pushing the power valves into clipping, which is obviously not happening here. Also, in a live context you're getting the acoustic coupling effect with everything around you; that's why it's different when you put a mic in front of it in the studio. Basically, your ears are lying to you; what you *think* you're hearing is a very biased version of what's actually coming out of the speaker.
Also, how did you isolate the effect of the power section and account for the different designs, most notably the difference in the configuration of the negative feedback (presence and resonance/depth) between the amps? I'd suggest that there are far more variables than you're considering here, and you're making the *assumption* that it's the power valve clipping that's making the difference when it probably isn't.
There is a certain spot with my gear where it gets the power section of the amp & speakers working...It pushes enough air into my mic(s) to sound "right" to me, but it's pretty loud...I don't have the luxury of getting stupid loud anytime I want anymore, so I do a lot of re-amping, in short spurts of an hour or so at a time...I have a diy ISO cab that works pretty good too, but it's just not the same as a 4x12 in the room... I can get usable tracks with my ISO cab at 3 am, but there is a difference...To me, it matters, but to a lot of folks, it doesn't... Good video Glenn...
very interesting !! I think even the "super quiet" setting keeps very good note definition and doesn't loose tone. When you get into the "medium loud", you start to hear more cabinet resonance. "stupid loud" starts to get more compressed like you said. And you can clearly hear it in the mix. Obviously they all work great in a proper room, and can be used differently depending on the kind of music you're producing. To MY ears, the "stupid loud" setting is the one that might work less, and might be more difficult to work with in the mixing process. I couldn't record like that in my room, I still need to make a solid investment for acoustic treatment. Thanks for the video Glenn, you rule !!
i liked the super loud setting the most. isolated and in the mix. maybe its because i am going more for a stoner rock or doom tone than metal. would be interesting which mic(s) you used and in which position...
In the mix (I'm listening with JBL eb55t headphones) the normal & medium sounded the best. The excruciatingly loud track offered more headroom, and a more "open" sound, which was very pleasant, but the low end was a bit too flubby for my taste. The super quiet track was too fizzy for my taste. Great demonstration!
Interesting clip!! Just as you said, I'll always push it just before it starts getting painful for proper recording, but for making quick videos I was wondering about quiet & "normal" volume results. Definitely good enough for the clarity for simple instructional vids, etc. I appreciate the benefits of "in the box" applications, but that world is one I do not live in. I will be standing up, plugging into amps, and moving air until I'm dead ✌️🤘
I do like the way the soft recording sounds in the mix. Honestly it's a tie between that one and the normal. I think depending on what else goes in the song, that would dictate which one I'd use. Thanks Glenn!
Great conversation piece, Glenn. I have also blown an entire cabinet full of speakers. That's $500 in the garbage. The cons outweigh the benefits, and when the guitars are mixed, you'll lose the wonderful mojo. As many here have stated, certain amp circuits will benefit from being pushed. Mostly, they sound the same. If you want a rounder fuller sound, EQ. SM57? Low Pass Filter, or dial back the presence. Problems with bass? That's actually rare. High Pass Filter. Need to sound live or need the room sound? There are plugins, or exceptional outboard for exactly that. Need feedback? Crank the monitors, your guitar will think it's in front of a 1/2 stack. Looking for mojo? Get those speakers working enough. They're all a hair different, I use Alnico Blues for all my leads. Its the speaker that gives it the unique sound preferable to all my others. Noise gates? Keep the volumes within reason and the gates will function. Too loud will break through all the gates. Trying to ISO your speakers? Reduce the volume. I record at all hours, without concern because the speakers are in ISO. Do you want to hear that mic preamp mojo? You'll have to stay quiet enough, otherwise the mic pre will be off. No real need to preamp a super loud signal. Before I had preamps, I could only record at 'stupid loud' volumes. Everything works better at medium. For those JTM style non master volume amps, for those classic Fenders, sometimes a soak will answer the call. Recording is full of let downs. Just when you think you have a good multi-mic setup, you realize that once it's been mixed, all of those features you adored are lost in the shuffle. Safe Travels!
Hi , back about 15 years i recorded an EP with my band and when we recorded my guitar parts , i thought i'd turned my amp ( Mesa RectoVerb into an over sized Mesa 4x12 ) to pretty much what was needed but our producer Ian Hill (Judas Priest) just had one listen to the tone and went straight into the live room and cranked the shit out of my amp , remarking later "thats a nice sounding little rig you've got there " . My amp was never quite the same after that session !!!
I like this. Volume is very important. My 5150 2 /marshall 1960 cab’s best tone is at 3-3.5. I record all my jam sessions with my drummer to capture ideas on the fly. The only thing that sucks is he is a hard hitter and the room is tiny. I have to turn up to 4 and it makes a difference . Gotta hit the multiband compressor pretty hard with the post at 4. And pull the sm57 back about an inch at that volume.
I am so glad you finally answered this question, Glenn! My Torpedo Captor does the job really well, but at the same time I always wanted to experiment with mics and never knew if I would actually waste money on them. I really dig the stupid loud sound because of the mids, which makes me wonder if it's possible to compensate at low volume with more mids. Great video, as always :)
Your normal volume and the medium (95-106 range) sounded the best in my opinion, however the low volume did not sound bad either. This is actually a question that I was thinking about recently and this video answered it. Thanks, Glenn.
Great vid Glen, here's a follow-up question! Normal volume vs normal volume via a Torpedo Reload taking it down to super-quiet levels- you'd lose some cabinet mojo but I'd like to see if that low-end grunt is from cab resonance or the power tubes actually getting out of bed.
Liked the "stupid loud" the least both solo and in the mix. Solo, I think the Medium Loud and Low were the ones I liked but I thought all but the stupid loud sounded really good. In the mix, the Low was my favorite. I'm very surprised by this. Thank you for doing the test.
I used to mic my amp(s) for recording but after using the fractal and now BIAS FX, I'm convinced that for MY needs, recording direct generates better, more consistent results. Again, this is in a mix and just my opinion. What do you think?
i definitely agree that the modeling is a cleaner, more predictable sound. certainly consistent. that's actually what i dislike about it. i love the real-world chaos theory of sounds bouncing around air and contours! real sound is like a box of chocolates- you never know what you're going to get! GUMP. i've noticed that the modeling is TOO good these days. it's too clean and my ears fatigue very quickly (depending on how good the engineer is) of listening to it. i still enjoy making albums and not singles, so for me the ear fatigue and boringness of the exact same replicated sound is like chinese water torture. as an example, i couldn't figure out why Jeff Loomis/Keith Merrow's Conquering Dystopia album sounded so awesome in youtube vids where they played along on PRS Archons, but just listening to the album afterward lacked all luster and depth. so i didn't buy the album, because even though i couldn't pinpoint what was wrong, it just sounded lame and wildly uninteresting. two weeks later i saw an interview and they said the whole album was done on modeling and sims- no amps were harmed in the making of the album! so i blame that. (it might have been that it was all metronome'd and cut and pasted to perfection- i don't know i didn't record it. but i know no amps were used and with amps it sounded amazeballs). it sounded perfect to my ears. and i didn't want to listen to it. not at all. It's the Agent Smith theory from the first matrix movie. where he describes to Neo that the original matrix failed because humans rejected it's perfection. we like organic, living things. but that's just me. i think it's very easy to sit down as an engineer and listen for 5 seconds, then say 'this sounds better'. but in the end we have to put ourselves in the audiences shoes and listen with their ears. i make music for the ten people out there that still like listening to more than one song from an artist in a row, because that's the type of music fan i am. If it's not good enough to listen to the Album, then it's not good enough. i know, i'm old.
I think your "normal volume" one sounded the best overall. I was very surprised at how bad "stupid loud" sounded. "Medium Loud" was second best in my opinion. \m/
I think there’s a few things at play here, how hard you push the amp and how hard you push the speakers. It varies depending on your equipment. I have a 50W 2x12 Greenback cab that gets a bit fizzy at low volumes, but once you start to push it, it will even out. These speakers are pretty well known for that though. You might have to push them even harder if you have a 4x12, or you might find with a different speaker that they aren’t as affected by low volumes. I also have two types of amplifiers, old Marshall style with no master volume and a custom master volume amp with a distorted preamp. The old Marshall style amps need to be pushed to ear blistering levels to get good distortion from the power amp, but the master volume amp doesn’t as all the distortion happens in the preamp. Just get a healthy volume out of it without blowing your head off and you’re good to go. So I think it depends on a few things. Really cool video though. I’m new to recording so this has given me some ideas to experiment with!
I love the Quiet one. It has way more dynamics intact. Way more interesting. Brings out the details of the playing more. But it has the flaw of being kind of weak, in the bass end. I would say, each has its benefits. But dayumn, it does really matter. Which was a bit unexpected. Totally appreciate this new knowledge Glen. :)
I'd also love to get your thoughts on setting up a room for recording cabs from a neighbourhood disturbance prespective- I don't live in an apartment, but the neighbours will know all about a valve amp being cranked nonetheless...
Awesome shirt man!!! I liked all of the levels in the mix. But the quiet track sounded brighter. Maybe a track of your normal recording level and a super quiet track could be used if you needed to give a recording more clarity?
the super loud one sounded up in the mix which seems to blow out the test. All levels in daw for each "recording level pass" should be matched at playback to really dispel the myth that loud to a 57 (or) gets a fuller tone. Right? Love your videos and your science.
Something I notice about the first three sounds is the perceived volume difference is not that much, where the crazy loud sound is all about power, lows and compression, as you said.
To me, your normal volume sounds best, has almost the perfect balance between the high end "fizzyness" and the low end feeling of "air", personally id crank the amp a bit more just for more low end. But that is just for the solo tracks Mix wise, i still think basically the same thing only i feel like your volume sits best in a mix. Well done! Great video!
The increase in bass from the volume suggests that the room is influencing the tone more than anything like a standing wave in the room. Whatever treatment is around the amp, isn't thick enough to stop these long wavelengths from passing through to the mic.
Loud enough to entertain your neighbors. Seriously though, for my last EP I recorded at a medium level I suppose through my Peavey Bandit. High gain with an overdrive in front as I wanted tons of feedback at my disposal. It was loud enough that I was uncomfortable but I baby my ears most of the time as I don't want to be deaf by the time I'm 50. Worked out fine, though I'm not sure there's a difference when pushing a solid state amp. It would mostly be speaker movement that might flab out when you crank it all the way up.
The method I have gone by that I heard somewhere was to turn the speakers up until the bass notes are actually moving air and you can feel it with your hand. Not jacked up to a million, not on 2, just somewhere in that sweet spot.
I think Super Quiet sounded the best while in the mix, to my ears it just sounds like the tracks have a lot more room to breathe, and that in many cases is what I like about older recordings. To me, making a record isn't just about the space you have to fill, it's also about the void that should be kept in as well. Having any recording balls to the wall loud just sounds choked up because you can't enjoy the individual instruments if you can't hear them because they're fighting for room in the mix.
Used a rule of thumb from your passed video. Set the volume enough to get the cab moving.
6 лет назад
first of all, the guitar sound in this episode is killer!!!! earthworks ftw! honestly this (+ the sr25 and the tc30 if you got a good room ) and the beyerdynamic m160 are so far my favorite mics for heavy guitar recordings :) no to the topic :D... if it needs to be tight, i tend to use lower master volume settings and if a aim for a muddier and creamier sound i'd crank the mastervolume ... well okay i admit it, most of the time i crank it as much as it makes sense i simply love poweramp saturation if compresses nicely, the gives the sound more warmth and overtones. i loooove it :D that is why recording with the torpedo live makes so much fun imo ... for live use i think about a powersoak but it is hard to find a good one :/ but yeah awesome video glenn! :)
You should have the SPL meter set to A weighted and slow response for a test like this. That will give you the most accurate reading. There are very few instances where you should use C weighted in any case, and slow response will give you a better reading of AVERAGE volume vs. PEAK volume.
120 sounds good !! Id like to see a video done on diffrent size speakers in their cabinets. Everybody has their favorites, 12s are usually the most popular but what about 15s ? I hear this was something that was done many moons ago.
Very interesting glen. I don't think i've seen this demonstrated before. I think all of the volumes demonstrated would be valid in the right context depending on how much bottom end you wanted and how tight you wanted it to be. I think people immediately go to something like a full volume bluesbreaker and assume cranked is good, but it seems like for metal when you want tit to be tight in a dense mix, there's a happy medium?
On my Mt15 prs, it sounds best loud when the tubes are getting going. Low volume sounds thin and hard to EQ trying to get that nice crunch sound. Also helps to buy an attenuator for your amp so you can crank it half way volume and have low volume with full tone.
The normal and medium quiet had more body but sounded a bit muffled in comparison to the super quiet. Very interesting. I think that you should have compensated a little bit more though. The super loud sounds louder than the rest but that might be only the effect of compression. Very interesting to hear how in the mix, the super quiet one isn't all that bad! I will try more variations in volume while reamping to fit the mix that's for sure! Thanks Glenn
you should treat the volume like any other tone knob or anything. whatever loudness for the tone you want. that said, its usually ideal to push tube amps somewhere around 50-70% or so. in general, it seems fairly obvious that the more you push it, the more air is moving, and the more low end though the effect is subtle. push too much and you start to get power amp distortion and you may not desire that for many styles of metal.
Dunno how much it differs form song to song, but I think the Super Quiet fits so well in this mix (more top end, not as compressed, seems to "breathe" more). Standalone I prefer the Normal volume.
It doesn't work for everything, but to me, there's something magical about the way tube amps sounds when they're cranked to 10. I play my Tele straight into a Carr Rambler (sort of like a Deluxe Reverb) cranked to 10. I use my guitar's controls and my playing dynamics to get all the levels of gain and different sounds that I need. BUT WEAR HEARING PROTECTION
The quiet volume allows to capture more details in the playing, so I liked it more. BTW, it could be interesting to apply the concept of this video for live sound on stage - How to find the sweet spot in live situation, when you need to consider that other instruments bleed into the mic, and yet you want to make the details of guitar playing go through, without blowing the PA. Surely I am not the only one that would find it interesting, so here's a request :)
In my opinion the best clarity in tone was achived by Super Quiet! Chugs and single notes low strings sounded the best. But Open riffs and chords sounded a bit fuller on normal volume
As always, depends truly on taste and how you want it to sound. I prefer to go stupid high volume to be as aggressively clear as possible with the riffs. I haven't recorded in a while due to lack of equipment but after several hundreds of takes and playing with the amp volume I found out I get the best sound by cranking it up.
I skip alot of ads when im watching youtube,but theres a handful of uploaders i watch that i dont skip ads for, you included. But muscle memory kicked in, sorry glen! Lol
I really liked the super quite one, the guitar sounds a bit fuller, but it doesn't have the same bite as the louder volumes. A mix of super quite and normal would sounds really good I bet.
i would prefer the super quiet, the normal would work as well, at "your" stage you started to hear where the stupid loud was heading, that may be due to the fact you get more low end which some others have pointed out but i would much prefer the quiet for the "clearness". Would it be worth it / posible to mix and match from both worlds? (super quiet + your own). Keep doing what you're doing glenn, it seems to work great and i wouldnt have noticed unless you pointed it out, as you did xD
"The problem with guitar players" Lol. Im sure most musicians and engineers alike were eagerly awaiting the full mix to decide. But if you want to invent reasons why your subjective opinion is "right" You get on with your bad self.
MegaCrasherMusic You know there was a display in and out of mix in the video right? How do you know the person you're replying to isn't talking about the mix version?
MegaCrasherMusic Already seen it. His point is more about scooping the mids and piling on gain rather than adding lows. This video demo is adding volume from the amp and then leveling it off. It's not the same as what you're talking about.
Different volumes apply for different genres, but until digital amps became a thing, entire genres were created by cranking the amps to unbelievable volumes. Some bands that come to mind are Black Sabbath, Motorhead, Massacre (the guitar tone on From Beyond is stupid loud and sound amazing), Melvins. I could go on and on, hope the point is clear though.
Hey Glenn, If the Revv amp had a choke mod on the output transformer it would sound killer at the 120 db range...without it a choke mod your peak is around 110db as you lost your dynamics due to increasing the distorted harmonics at 120db...!!
I like the normal volume best. Super Quiet gets a little fuzzy/fizzy - loses some of that low end punch. Medium loud just sounded kind of lackluster. Super loud didn't sound as tight, kind of like the speakers were being driven a little too hard.
Super Quiet possibly sounds good for black metal, although I personally find myself moving the mic's position further away from the amp as to lower the harsher frequencies for this particular genre.
This question is probably pretty stupid but when you are writing/recording your own music and planning on releasing it. If you get people to help you out with lyrics, album artwork, track piano on one section of a track for example, how do you sort out royalties for the tracks? Like because they are on that track or helped write lyrics how do you sort out if, or how much of the royalties should they recieve?
I think medium loud or your regular preset sound best. When it's too quiet it has a brighter tone that doesn't really sit well and then the stupid loud setting gives it way too much body to where it crowds up the lower mids. That's just what I heard. Also when will judging for DMCSC get underway?
Nice shirt! But I always had a question How I can use an overdrive pedal with amp sims How I can connect an overdrive to boost an amp, what happens with the clipping If I put my overdrive and turn on I need to put my recording level as -6db for avoid clipping? But set this level, is not the same as a recording a di signal? In theory I don’t push it the sim because the level still the same as a direct di recording?
![Loud Amp Or Quiet Amp For Recording? [100 Vs 5 Watts, Can You Feel It?]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/AzNI1gTpcyM/mqdefault.jpg)
Great Video! Thanks Glen. content like this is what makes it really worth tuning into your channel. each volume definitely had its own attributes. they all sounded good to me. just different for different mixes. listening to it, i wanted to blend the super quiet with the super loud together for a nice full spectrum! (especially with the bass guitar so quiet and muddled in the mix- or was i listening to weird bass frequency guitar off-time reverberations? i hate those). do another one for solos! (i've noticed power cranked power tubes often sound better for leads)
the only thing that changed was some pretty simple eq, almost the same as if we adjusted the amp settings itself. I've found it depends on the amp from my own tests. i have an old Blue voodoo that falls apart at louder volumes (as a lot of older-cheaper amps do) but excels at recording at quiet levels- better than my more boutique-y amps. that was a surprise for me since i threw the Crate into the tests last minute just to be thorough. wasn't expecting it to sound good! but at quiet levels it hung with triple rectifier, panama inferno, and V3 better than fine.
All that talk about pushing the power tubes only applies to really old amps such as plexi's that need to be pushed to get that glorious overdriven tube breakup. modern amps don't need that. the distortion comes from the preamp tube section. The way i like to think of modern amps, is the louder you put the master volume the more your using the power tubes section of the amp. i literally think of it as a blend knob, like i'm blending in a slightly colored preamp/boost. and the same with the channel level. it's a blend knob too, adding in its own slightly colored flavor. gotta find the right blend between the two amps. (this is only for recording- where i can record at any volume i want of course- live has gotta be loud so... it turns back into a volume knob)
If we subtract the fact that louder moves more air, and puts out an increase bass response from any cabinet you play through (some cabinets handle this better than others) what we're really getting is more coloration in sound from the power tubes as we turn up the master volume. this could be desirable- it could not be. i've found every amp has a sweet spot in its power tube section (some spots larger, some spots smaller) where it is still very tight and articulate without much 'extra' dynamics like breathiness, bass, or midrange. the rectifier has a very broad sweet spot. thing sounds great at super loud levels. makes it a fantastic live amp. the Blue voodoo has a relatively small sweet spot that's sits on the quiet side. The panama inferno also has a medium sweet spot that sits right in the middle. it's not great super loud, not great super quiet- possibly because of the KT-88 tubes. Haven't really experimented enough with the Carvin V3 to peg it for sure. But the cabinet matters too. i position my cabinets on a platform that is about 20 inches off the ground to give the bass room to expand out before reflecting off the floor. this seems to give a smoother, more usable bass sound. it also helps smooth out the differences between amp volume levels. switching the same amp between different cabinets is gonna affect how it plays at different volumes too.
but this is a great vid to counter the "louder is better" axiom with tube amps. sometimes yes, sometimes no. depends on the amp, the speakers, and what's best for the mix and style of metal. for metal you want lots of headroom so you're NOT pushing the power tubes to the limit. that's where the 150 watts of triple rectifier and the 180 watts of the Herbert Diesel sound awesome. you're not supposed to crank them up louder, they're supposed to sound better at the same loudness. After experimenting with comparing a mini-rectifier to a triple rectifier, a iron ball to a power ball 2, a grandmeister 36 to a tri-amp, and a mark V 35 to a mark V 90; none of the little guys hold a candle to their full size compatriots. They're all good amps, but i wouldn't use a mini-amp for recording metal rhythm. (although the mini-rectifier was the best classic rock amp i've played on). really need that full circuitry and headroom! (if anyone reads this i'll be super amazed! you might be as bored or idiosyncratic as me!)
Pinned!
Glenn, were you zoomed in on the waveforms? If not, you're recording too hot. Analog saturation pre-converters usually messes the signal up. Unless that's the effect you are going for...
Great comment! Very interesting to read :)
i was so busy writing this i almost didn't hear the Fed ex guy delivering a used Little Labs IBP (analog phase sweep, di, and reamp)! luckily he started pounding pretty loud and it broke me out of my haze! Can't wait to try the thing out. Such a neat device. i'm literally giddy just thinking of what i can do with it!
The only time I recorded in a studio with my Bugera 6262 Infinium + Behringer BG 412V cab, the studio guy went in the recording booth and put the amp's lead channel volume knob on 5 (I was playing in the control room, not in the recording booth). I asked him "are you sure?" (I only go to 2 live and it's loud AF!) and he said "it's ok, that shouldn't be too loud". I played a chord to test the mics and, to cut a long story short, I ended up doing all the tracking with the volume a little below 2. XD
I got a great sound from maxing out my Spider II.
NML1986 demo?
I was kidding :)
NML1986 it sounds even better playing a bass through a Spider ii through a metal zone pedal 🤣🤣
Honestly, though. With the right settings, a Spider III does sound pretty decent if you crank it.
Shrub Plays weird, I thought it would be the opposite. If I get the chance maybe I’ll try
The quiet one sounds like NAMM demos.
For me the quiet setting was the best. No unnecessary bass in the track to mix out later and made the mix sound tighter. Great video!!!
Honestly, the quiet one sounds anemic on its own, but in the mix I like it the best. More top end, easier to hear when everything's going.
Agreed!
I was just about to post this. It sound almost fizzy solo, but when it went into the mix, it was very articulate and cut hard. Very interesting.
As the volume went up I won't say the highs went down but they definitely compressed! I still liked 120 the best because of the crunch added by said compression. It would be completely different if you wanted twang, or spank. I have a middle pickup and contour footswitch for that ; )
This video was good but Glenn I think we all know that all of these 4 sounds pale in comparison to using a Strat with a heavily mid-scooped Line 6 Spider turned up to 10
miracleofsound ALL THE GAAAAIIIINNNN!!!
LOL
Unless its the Line 6 Spider lll 120w or 200w version with 400 Rock Star presets. That doesn't emulate it dominates. Keep the Helix and The Kempers lol. I found in a mix its cuts through, its doesn't go out of phase, like the overdrives don't interfere with eachother and muddy up like lets say a Vox and Marshall are put side by side. Theyve made some stinkers but a few sleepers too
I dont know if that's weird, but I like the lowest setting the best, feel like it leaves more room for the mix
That reminds me of this funny thing Steve said the other day man. Ha yeah you wouldn't get it but it was funny
I think when recording highly distorted guitars, if you’re really going to crank the shit out of your amp you need to compensate by turning the gain down a bit. Otherwise the compression from the distortion coupled with the compression from the power amp and the speakers being pushed too hard all gets too much. If you were doing a more classic rock style sound like AC/DC or led zeppelin then those sounds definitely benefit from the amp being pushed hard.
Most amps in that early era lacked a master volume, which meant overall volume was dependent on how hard you drove the preamp, to get lead tones, that was maxed and fucking loud if you were playing any amp,so they were definitely moving some serious air.
Glenn! I just wanted to let you know I started recording a band for the first time ever last night in my home studio and put so many of your tips into action. The best part is, I just listened to the pilot tracks again and realized the bassist has the best meter in the entire band! I'm totally serious but figured you might find it funny anyways. Thanks so much for your helpful videos!
wow.... I can honestly say I'm kind of shocked at how little difference the volume made in recording.... They all sounded a little bit different, but it was not the massive difference I expected. Good stuff Glenn!
Moving the mic will have a far greater effect!
For some reason super quiet sounded most pleasant for me; sorta like modern version NWOBH and it also leaves little wiggle room for dynamic range to make things bit more interesting.
i noticed that too. nice and crisp like proper black metal or new wave'.
That's interesting, because I thought that was the only one that was unusable. Seemed too thin or harsh for my tastes, but I can definitely see it being used for that now!
It's more that it works in whole mix better IMO.
I push my amp as loud as I think is reasonable in my small, but treated, room. My H&K is switchable from 40W down to 1W and you'd be surprised just how loud 1W is in a small space.
I've got the 100w Katana head that is switchable between 100/50/.5 watts, and I'm honestly shocked at how loud it can get on just the .5 watt setting...
Ryan Wright in reply to both of ur comments, I have a 15 watt Laney irt studio head switch's from 15 to 1 and 1 in a small room is fucking loud. I wonder what louder in that setting. A 1 watt tube amp or 5 watt ss
not sure, but if you haven't checked out the Katana amps, you probably should at some point... they'll change your preconceptions of what SS is capable of. :)
Ryan Wright I haven't, seen alot of vids but haven't played one yet just might today when I go in to pickup some strings if it's good enough might pick one up which one has the most effects and is it battery opperatable
Whenever I hear a Katana I'm impressed by the sound and versatility for the price - I still can't quite get over my natural bias toward tubes, even though I know its becoming increasingly meaningless.
Great video using the SPL meter. I thought the "Normal volume" sounded the best, which just proves that years of experience allows you to understand these fine details. On a personal note, the 120 dB "stupid loud" is about the same volume as a jet engine running at idle, which I'm familiar with as it's a noise I'm exposed to daily at work. Without ear plugs, it's damn uncomfortable, and would do permanent damage to your hearing very quickly. That's something your viewers need to be aware of. If they feel the need to crank an amp up to ear-bleeding levels, put the cab in it's own room or wear ear plugs.
Paul Yeah 120 is hovering around the pain threshold,and only idiots don't wear hearing protection.
Anything over 85 you really need hearing protection to protect yourself.
yup, the only one that wouldn't require hearing protection was the super quiet 65db. at 90 i'm wearing mine. (used to work on jets too- double hearing protection!)
Flight deck guy here too. I think I have eustacian tube disfunction or something. Ears always filling with pressure and not releasing unless I hold my nose and blow. I’m trying to preserve whatever hearing I may have left for sure!
When nice and quiet - there's more room to play with, the more cranked guitars are limited, too much actual (bad) distortion - good luck working with that :D
At 120dB you can really hear the cabinet involvement. I think it breathes new life into the tone adding nice overtones that weren't there in the lower volumes.
The detail and high end of the super quiet track is really nice. I think I prefer it!
Definitely thought the super loud version was too boomy. Even in the full mix, it was the only one that stood out to me where I thought "oh, that is not so good." The quietest one sounded fine in the mix, even if on its own it lost some low end. Once you brought the bass and drums in, that didn't matter any more. Definitely a cool experiment!
Is it just me or did medium loud sound kinda the worst?
Ultra loud definitely had something going for it.
I agree, I didn't like the two in the middle at all. The quiet one and the loud one sounded pretty different from each other, but both were pleasant and usable in their own way. The others just... kinda sounded crappy in both contexts.
Yes, to me it did too. Every time.
The quieter it is, the fizzier the top end is. This explains why impulses are always fizzy as hell, too, the volume is just too low when people make them.
Have you ever thought of re-recording "The Eagle Has Landed"? It seems that you continue to learn more every year, I think it would be cool to hear your progress (or changes in recording preference) with this familiar track! Cheers from Montucky.
I’m at the stage where I’m curious if my guitar needed to be that loud and thank you Glenn for the examples. I think the loudest setting sounded the worst, was the quietest. But the super quiet and the normal settings were the best. Felt like there was a lot more definition in the tone of the guitar.
Honestly I liked the super quiet the best in the mix. Which is funny because on my current recordings I've just been experimenting with turning the volume up a bit. Sounds great soloed, but I just started the recording so I haven't listened in a mix yet. Oddly your "medium loud" sounds like crap while both quiet and normal sound great. You'd think being right in the middle it wouldn't be so bad.
Mike Fox, I think what's happening is there's less low end in the super quiet one, so it sounds more distinct from the bass than the others. That said, it also makes the performance sound less unified, so I have to say the normal one sounds best overall to me. Not too thin, not too thick, just right. But it is weird how the medium one sounded worse than all the others.
I like to call it the uncanny valley effect. Just close enough to normal to be freaky instead.
I refer to your "How to record heavy guitar" video series quite a bit and you say that we want to push the amp until there is speaker excursion! Not too much, and not too little! What can I say Glenn, you are the reason I'm micing up a cab right now instead of being an AX8 owner or something else.. Seriously, thank you.
Anyway to my ears, the normal volume sounded best across the board, isolated and in a mix. This is a great video and I'm eager to test this out for myself in my own recordings.
Thanks VM, this is a major question I have... mean I had !
Quiet seams to give a bit more high frequencies. But for me, interest of Cab/mic capture is to get non-linear things and unpredictible results, to face new problems and push each time a bit deeper my understanding.
The best sound i've ever heard was in Orleans (France) trying a full handmade head. 120W tubes, no noise a 80% volume... and i head the distorsion of V30s...
Did the effect of facing a jumbojet engine.
Just to say volume can provide an extra "something" if you're head is high-end quality sound.
Great video, Glen. Living in an apartment I have to use a Torpedo Cab but it sounds good. In a good studio room I would crank the amp for power amp saturation. Keep these videos coming.
what about cranking an amp through a attenuated cab?
Man, almost every question I have, you have a video answering it. Thank you man!
Glad I could help!
I'd love to see a tutorial on bussing in a DAW.
Ok
When it comes to heavy guitar (or really with clean guitar too) I've generally had a basic rule to go by, and that's to turn the amp as loud as it can possibly be without the volume causing other problems like mic clipping or other equipment issues, or too many room reflections, or some other technical issue. An amp sound be fairly loud so that the speaker is at peak performance, the resonance of the cab is doing it's thing and you get a pretty good signal to noise ratio on your tracks. When I record with my 100 watt Marshall (I have a 30th anniversary), I typically set it to 50 watt mode, and crank the master volume up to around 4-5 or so where the amp really opens up.
I'm not so convinced that it's the power section making the difference here. While most power sections _do_ act as a compressor when they're pushed really hard, what we're hearing there sounds more like thermal compression in the speaker coil - it's as though the low end becomes more apparent the louder you get. If it was coming from the power section, we'd also have heard clipping/fuzziness in the lower frequencies, but all those clips seemed to be pretty clear of that to me.
Also...Glenn - how well-isolated is the mic from the acoustic coupling effect (ie vibrations from the floor)? I'm guessing that might come into play too in terms of the low end.
I don't hear any power tube clipping either, but as far as I know that's the reason why high wattage amps are still being used, to push the speaker hard enough to resonate properly but with no power stage distortion.
Yes, that's exactly it - I know that thermal compression in the coil makes a massive difference, but I'm yet to work out whether the extra volume brings a coupling effect with the microphone too, which would obviously colour the result. I don't have the luxury of Glenn's facilities, and I'm not really up for a visit from the plod for turning my amps up to ludicrous volumes to try it out ;)
I don't concur with you, dear digiscream. I got a JCM 2000 DSL201 all tube amp, that blew the socks of big 100 watt tube stacks, because the power section worked harder. The overdrive got a richness you don't get with only pre amp gain.
But I must say, that was in live settings, not in a studio, because it's a bit too fizzy to use in a studio.
Carlos, I think you've misunderstood what I'm saying. You're talking about pushing the power valves into clipping, which is obviously not happening here. Also, in a live context you're getting the acoustic coupling effect with everything around you; that's why it's different when you put a mic in front of it in the studio. Basically, your ears are lying to you; what you *think* you're hearing is a very biased version of what's actually coming out of the speaker.
Also, how did you isolate the effect of the power section and account for the different designs, most notably the difference in the configuration of the negative feedback (presence and resonance/depth) between the amps? I'd suggest that there are far more variables than you're considering here, and you're making the *assumption* that it's the power valve clipping that's making the difference when it probably isn't.
There is a certain spot with my gear where it gets the power section of the amp & speakers working...It pushes enough air into my mic(s) to sound "right" to me, but it's pretty loud...I don't have the luxury of getting stupid loud anytime I want anymore, so I do a lot of re-amping, in short spurts of an hour or so at a time...I have a diy ISO cab that works pretty good too, but it's just not the same as a 4x12 in the room...
I can get usable tracks with my ISO cab at 3 am, but there is a difference...To me, it matters, but to a lot of folks, it doesn't...
Good video Glenn...
very interesting !! I think even the "super quiet" setting keeps very good note definition and doesn't loose tone. When you get into the "medium loud", you start to hear more cabinet resonance. "stupid loud" starts to get more compressed like you said. And you can clearly hear it in the mix. Obviously they all work great in a proper room, and can be used differently depending on the kind of music you're producing. To MY ears, the "stupid loud" setting is the one that might work less, and might be more difficult to work with in the mixing process. I couldn't record like that in my room, I still need to make a solid investment for acoustic treatment. Thanks for the video Glenn, you rule !!
You're very welcome!
i liked the super loud setting the most. isolated and in the mix. maybe its because i am going more for a stoner rock or doom tone than metal. would be interesting which mic(s) you used and in which position...
In the mix (I'm listening with JBL eb55t headphones) the normal & medium sounded the best. The excruciatingly loud track offered more headroom, and a more "open" sound, which was very pleasant, but the low end was a bit too flubby for my taste. The super quiet track was too fizzy for my taste. Great demonstration!
Interesting clip!! Just as you said, I'll always push it just before it starts getting painful for proper recording, but for making quick videos I was wondering about quiet & "normal" volume results.
Definitely good enough for the clarity for simple instructional vids, etc. I appreciate the benefits of "in the box" applications, but that world is one I do not live in. I will be standing up, plugging into amps, and moving air until I'm dead ✌️🤘
It doesnt matter...It's all about the bassguitar when it comes to the low end. the rest is up to eq and mic placement.
I do like the way the soft recording sounds in the mix. Honestly it's a tie between that one and the normal. I think depending on what else goes in the song, that would dictate which one I'd use. Thanks Glenn!
Great conversation piece, Glenn. I have also blown an entire cabinet full of speakers. That's $500 in the garbage. The cons outweigh the benefits, and when the guitars are mixed, you'll lose the wonderful mojo. As many here have stated, certain amp circuits will benefit from being pushed. Mostly, they sound the same. If you want a rounder fuller sound, EQ. SM57? Low Pass Filter, or dial back the presence. Problems with bass? That's actually rare. High Pass Filter. Need to sound live or need the room sound? There are plugins, or exceptional outboard for exactly that. Need feedback? Crank the monitors, your guitar will think it's in front of a 1/2 stack. Looking for mojo? Get those speakers working enough. They're all a hair different, I use Alnico Blues for all my leads. Its the speaker that gives it the unique sound preferable to all my others. Noise gates? Keep the volumes within reason and the gates will function. Too loud will break through all the gates. Trying to ISO your speakers? Reduce the volume. I record at all hours, without concern because the speakers are in ISO. Do you want to hear that mic preamp mojo? You'll have to stay quiet enough, otherwise the mic pre will be off. No real need to preamp a super loud signal. Before I had preamps, I could only record at 'stupid loud' volumes. Everything works better at medium. For those JTM style non master volume amps, for those classic Fenders, sometimes a soak will answer the call. Recording is full of let downs. Just when you think you have a good multi-mic setup, you realize that once it's been mixed, all of those features you adored are lost in the shuffle. Safe Travels!
Hi , back about 15 years i recorded an EP with my band and when we recorded my guitar parts , i thought i'd turned my amp ( Mesa RectoVerb into an over sized Mesa 4x12 ) to pretty much what was needed but our producer Ian Hill (Judas Priest) just had one listen to the tone and went straight into the live room and cranked the shit out of my amp , remarking later "thats a nice sounding little rig you've got there " . My amp was never quite the same after that session !!!
I like this. Volume is very important. My 5150 2 /marshall 1960 cab’s best tone is at 3-3.5. I record all my jam sessions with my drummer to capture ideas on the fly. The only thing that sucks is he is a hard hitter and the room is tiny. I have to turn up to 4 and it makes a difference . Gotta hit the multiband compressor pretty hard with the post at 4. And pull the sm57 back about an inch at that volume.
This is great. Question answered, no ear fatigue. What more could you want?
I am so glad you finally answered this question, Glenn! My Torpedo Captor does the job really well, but at the same time I always wanted to experiment with mics and never knew if I would actually waste money on them. I really dig the stupid loud sound because of the mids, which makes me wonder if it's possible to compensate at low volume with more mids.
Great video, as always :)
Your normal volume and the medium (95-106 range) sounded the best in my opinion, however the low volume did not sound bad either. This is actually a question that I was thinking about recently and this video answered it. Thanks, Glenn.
Great vid Glen, here's a follow-up question! Normal volume vs normal volume via a Torpedo Reload taking it down to super-quiet levels- you'd lose some cabinet mojo but I'd like to see if that low-end grunt is from cab resonance or the power tubes actually getting out of bed.
I liked the quiet for the chugs best and the extreme loud for the open riffing toward the end the best
Liked the "stupid loud" the least both solo and in the mix. Solo, I think the Medium Loud and Low were the ones I liked but I thought all but the stupid loud sounded really good. In the mix, the Low was my favorite.
I'm very surprised by this. Thank you for doing the test.
I used to mic my amp(s) for recording but after using the fractal and now BIAS FX, I'm convinced that for MY needs, recording direct generates better, more consistent results. Again, this is in a mix and just my opinion. What do you think?
i definitely agree that the modeling is a cleaner, more predictable sound. certainly consistent. that's actually what i dislike about it. i love the real-world chaos theory of sounds bouncing around air and contours! real sound is like a box of chocolates- you never know what you're going to get! GUMP. i've noticed that the modeling is TOO good these days. it's too clean and my ears fatigue very quickly (depending on how good the engineer is) of listening to it. i still enjoy making albums and not singles, so for me the ear fatigue and boringness of the exact same replicated sound is like chinese water torture. as an example, i couldn't figure out why Jeff Loomis/Keith Merrow's Conquering Dystopia album sounded so awesome in youtube vids where they played along on PRS Archons, but just listening to the album afterward lacked all luster and depth. so i didn't buy the album, because even though i couldn't pinpoint what was wrong, it just sounded lame and wildly uninteresting. two weeks later i saw an interview and they said the whole album was done on modeling and sims- no amps were harmed in the making of the album! so i blame that. (it might have been that it was all metronome'd and cut and pasted to perfection- i don't know i didn't record it. but i know no amps were used and with amps it sounded amazeballs). it sounded perfect to my ears. and i didn't want to listen to it. not at all. It's the Agent Smith theory from the first matrix movie. where he describes to Neo that the original matrix failed because humans rejected it's perfection. we like organic, living things. but that's just me. i think it's very easy to sit down as an engineer and listen for 5 seconds, then say 'this sounds better'. but in the end we have to put ourselves in the audiences shoes and listen with their ears. i make music for the ten people out there that still like listening to more than one song from an artist in a row, because that's the type of music fan i am. If it's not good enough to listen to the Album, then it's not good enough. i know, i'm old.
I think your "normal volume" one sounded the best overall. I was very surprised at how bad "stupid loud" sounded. "Medium Loud" was second best in my opinion. \m/
I think there’s a few things at play here, how hard you push the amp and how hard you push the speakers. It varies depending on your equipment.
I have a 50W 2x12 Greenback cab that gets a bit fizzy at low volumes, but once you start to push it, it will even out. These speakers are pretty well known for that though. You might have to push them even harder if you have a 4x12, or you might find with a different speaker that they aren’t as affected by low volumes.
I also have two types of amplifiers, old Marshall style with no master volume and a custom master volume amp with a distorted preamp. The old Marshall style amps need to be pushed to ear blistering levels to get good distortion from the power amp, but the master volume amp doesn’t as all the distortion happens in the preamp. Just get a healthy volume out of it without blowing your head off and you’re good to go. So I think it depends on a few things.
Really cool video though. I’m new to recording so this has given me some ideas to experiment with!
I love the Quiet one. It has way more dynamics intact. Way more interesting. Brings out the details of the playing more. But it has the flaw of being kind of weak, in the bass end.
I would say, each has its benefits. But dayumn, it does really matter. Which was a bit unexpected.
Totally appreciate this new knowledge Glen. :)
the super quiet sounded too bright and thin for my taste. the super loud has a great mid range girth to it.
The loud one sounds really thick... The only thing is that 120dB is dangerous for you and you could also run into trouble with your neighbors.
I'd also love to get your thoughts on setting up a room for recording cabs from a neighbourhood disturbance prespective- I don't live in an apartment, but the neighbours will know all about a valve amp being cranked nonetheless...
Awesome shirt man!!! I liked all of the levels in the mix. But the quiet track sounded brighter. Maybe a track of your normal recording level and a super quiet track could be used if you needed to give a recording more clarity?
Thank you!!
You just saved me 3 hours!
Keep up the great work!!
the super loud one sounded up in the mix which seems to blow out the test. All levels in daw for each "recording level pass" should be matched at playback to really dispel the myth that loud to a 57 (or) gets a fuller tone. Right? Love your videos and your science.
Something I notice about the first three sounds is the perceived volume difference is not that much, where the crazy loud sound is all about power, lows and compression, as you said.
In the mix, the super quiet I think works best. For my personal taste. Cheers Glen!
To me, your normal volume sounds best, has almost the perfect balance between the high end "fizzyness" and the low end feeling of "air", personally id crank the amp a bit more just for more low end. But that is just for the solo tracks
Mix wise, i still think basically the same thing only i feel like your volume sits best in a mix.
Well done! Great video!
The increase in bass from the volume suggests that the room is influencing the tone more than anything like a standing wave in the room. Whatever treatment is around the amp, isn't thick enough to stop these long wavelengths from passing through to the mic.
I am actually shocked that in a mix I preferred the quiet tone. On it's own however I preferred normal
Loud enough to entertain your neighbors. Seriously though, for my last EP I recorded at a medium level I suppose through my Peavey Bandit. High gain with an overdrive in front as I wanted tons of feedback at my disposal. It was loud enough that I was uncomfortable but I baby my ears most of the time as I don't want to be deaf by the time I'm 50. Worked out fine, though I'm not sure there's a difference when pushing a solid state amp. It would mostly be speaker movement that might flab out when you crank it all the way up.
The method I have gone by that I heard somewhere was to turn the speakers up until the bass notes are actually moving air and you can feel it with your hand. Not jacked up to a million, not on 2, just somewhere in that sweet spot.
One of the best helpful videos for me , thanx a million glen!
I think Super Quiet sounded the best while in the mix, to my ears it just sounds like the tracks have a lot more room to breathe, and that in many cases is what I like about older recordings. To me, making a record isn't just about the space you have to fill, it's also about the void that should be kept in as well. Having any recording balls to the wall loud just sounds choked up because you can't enjoy the individual instruments if you can't hear them because they're fighting for room in the mix.
Used a rule of thumb from your passed video. Set the volume enough to get the cab moving.
first of all, the guitar sound in this episode is killer!!!! earthworks ftw! honestly this (+ the sr25 and the tc30 if you got a good room ) and the beyerdynamic m160 are so far my favorite mics for heavy guitar recordings :) no to the topic :D... if it needs to be tight, i tend to use lower master volume settings and if a aim for a muddier and creamier sound i'd crank the mastervolume ... well okay i admit it, most of the time i crank it as much as it makes sense i simply love poweramp saturation if compresses nicely, the gives the sound more warmth and overtones. i loooove it :D that is why recording with the torpedo live makes so much fun imo ... for live use i think about a powersoak but it is hard to find a good one :/ but yeah awesome video glenn! :)
You should have the SPL meter set to A weighted and slow response for a test like this. That will give you the most accurate reading. There are very few instances where you should use C weighted in any case, and slow response will give you a better reading of AVERAGE volume vs. PEAK volume.
120 sounds good !! Id like to see a video done on diffrent size speakers in their cabinets. Everybody has their favorites, 12s are usually the most popular but what about 15s ? I hear this was something that was done many moons ago.
Very interesting glen. I don't think i've seen this demonstrated before. I think all of the volumes demonstrated would be valid in the right context depending on how much bottom end you wanted and how tight you wanted it to be.
I think people immediately go to something like a full volume bluesbreaker and assume cranked is good, but it seems like for metal when you want tit to be tight in a dense mix, there's a happy medium?
On my Mt15 prs, it sounds best loud when the tubes are getting going. Low volume sounds thin and hard to EQ trying to get that nice crunch sound. Also helps to buy an attenuator for your amp so you can crank it half way volume and have low volume with full tone.
The normal and medium quiet had more body but sounded a bit muffled in comparison to the super quiet. Very interesting. I think that you should have compensated a little bit more though. The super loud sounds louder than the rest but that might be only the effect of compression. Very interesting to hear how in the mix, the super quiet one isn't all that bad! I will try more variations in volume while reamping to fit the mix that's for sure! Thanks Glenn
i loved the Super Quite One Its Seemed To Have A Lot Of Dynamics In My Opinion
you should treat the volume like any other tone knob or anything. whatever loudness for the tone you want. that said, its usually ideal to push tube amps somewhere around 50-70% or so. in general, it seems fairly obvious that the more you push it, the more air is moving, and the more low end though the effect is subtle. push too much and you start to get power amp distortion and you may not desire that for many styles of metal.
Dunno how much it differs form song to song, but I think the Super Quiet fits so well in this mix (more top end, not as compressed, seems to "breathe" more). Standalone I prefer the Normal volume.
It doesn't work for everything, but to me, there's something magical about the way tube amps sounds when they're cranked to 10.
I play my Tele straight into a Carr Rambler (sort of like a Deluxe Reverb) cranked to 10. I use my guitar's controls and my playing dynamics to get all the levels of gain and different sounds that I need. BUT WEAR HEARING PROTECTION
Thanks Glenn. Very helpful!!
Rockin tutorial! This helped by home recording so much. Thanks!
The quiet volume allows to capture more details in the playing, so I liked it more. BTW, it could be interesting to apply the concept of this video for live sound on stage - How to find the sweet spot in live situation, when you need to consider that other instruments bleed into the mic, and yet you want to make the details of guitar playing go through, without blowing the PA. Surely I am not the only one that would find it interesting, so here's a request :)
In my opinion the best clarity in tone was achived by Super Quiet! Chugs and single notes low strings sounded the best. But Open riffs and chords sounded a bit fuller on normal volume
Thanks Glenn! That's exactly what I was looking for.
Glad you got something out of it, Bill!
As always, depends truly on taste and how you want it to sound. I prefer to go stupid high volume to be as aggressively clear as possible with the riffs.
I haven't recorded in a while due to lack of equipment but after several hundreds of takes and playing with the amp volume I found out I get the best sound by cranking it up.
Great content as I expected good sir, and I really dig the shirt!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I skip alot of ads when im watching youtube,but theres a handful of uploaders i watch that i dont skip ads for, you included. But muscle memory kicked in, sorry glen! Lol
Thanks anyway!
I thought- we need pretty loud for recording. But now I'm not sure. I really like "super quiet" sound. Didn't expect that))
I really liked the super quite one, the guitar sounds a bit fuller, but it doesn't have the same bite as the louder volumes. A mix of super quite and normal would sounds really good I bet.
Great video Glen! Hey can you do the same comparison on how loud should we hit the drum?
i would prefer the super quiet, the normal would work as well, at "your" stage you started to hear where the stupid loud was heading, that may be due to the fact you get more low end which some others have pointed out but i would much prefer the quiet for the "clearness". Would it be worth it / posible to mix and match from both worlds? (super quiet + your own). Keep doing what you're doing glenn, it seems to work great and i wouldnt have noticed unless you pointed it out, as you did xD
Stupid loud had more bottom end, I liked that one the best.
NML1986 it does sound great, but its also pushing the speakers super hard.
lazrpo
Yep feels like bound energy.f'n sweet.
"The problem with guitar players"
Lol.
Im sure most musicians and engineers alike were eagerly awaiting the full mix to decide.
But if you want to invent reasons why your subjective opinion is "right"
You get on with your bad self.
MegaCrasherMusic You know there was a display in and out of mix in the video right? How do you know the person you're replying to isn't talking about the mix version?
MegaCrasherMusic Already seen it. His point is more about scooping the mids and piling on gain rather than adding lows. This video demo is adding volume from the amp and then leveling it off. It's not the same as what you're talking about.
It would be interesting to see what happens when you compress the different takes in a part 2.
Different volumes apply for different genres, but until digital amps became a thing, entire genres were created by cranking the amps to unbelievable volumes. Some bands that come to mind are Black Sabbath, Motorhead, Massacre (the guitar tone on From Beyond is stupid loud and sound amazing), Melvins. I could go on and on, hope the point is clear though.
Thanks brother, well done as usual,,appreciate the effort and sharing!
Hey Glenn, If the Revv amp had a choke mod on the output transformer it would sound killer at the 120 db range...without it a choke mod your peak is around 110db as you lost your dynamics due to increasing the distorted harmonics at 120db...!!
I like the normal volume best. Super Quiet gets a little fuzzy/fizzy - loses some of that low end punch. Medium loud just sounded kind of lackluster. Super loud didn't sound as tight, kind of like the speakers were being driven a little too hard.
correct! It's all about finding a happy medium!
Super Quiet possibly sounds good for black metal, although I personally find myself moving the mic's position further away from the amp as to lower the harsher frequencies for this particular genre.
This question is probably pretty stupid but when you are writing/recording your own music and planning on releasing it. If you get people to help you out with lyrics, album artwork, track piano on one section of a track for example, how do you sort out royalties for the tracks? Like because they are on that track or helped write lyrics how do you sort out if, or how much of the royalties should they recieve?
Set an open beer bottle on the cabinet... you'll know when it's too loud...
That's actually scientifically simple. Good advice!
so simple even a bassist would understand!
I’ll just use soda but yeah lel
I think medium loud or your regular preset sound best. When it's too quiet it has a brighter tone that doesn't really sit well and then the stupid loud setting gives it way too much body to where it crowds up the lower mids. That's just what I heard. Also when will judging for DMCSC get underway?
Nice shirt!
But I always had a question
How I can use an overdrive pedal with amp sims
How I can connect an overdrive to boost an amp, what happens with the clipping
If I put my overdrive and turn on
I need to put my recording level as -6db for avoid clipping? But set this level, is not the same as a recording a di signal? In theory I don’t push it the sim because the level still the same as a direct di recording?
Depends on if you need Power Amp distortion or not. That is what you are adding, some amps have to be pushed hard to sound good.