Procharger Update and FINAL differential test: 3.70 LSD vs 3.09 LSD
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2020
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My channel is dedicated to the Challenger / Charger R/T (RT) 5.7 liter HEMI, though we touch on the 6.4 (392, Scat Pack, and Daytona) and Hellcat (both base and Redeye trims), continually adding modifications to get the most out of it. I currently own a cammed Challenger RT 5.7 Hemi. I try to bring content that is not only informative but hopefully entertaining. I do not want others making the same mistakes I did and hopefully save you some money in the end. I am dedicated to taking my 5.7 liter Hemi in its stock form as fast as it will possibly allow me. My current list of modifications is extensive but there is plenty more to come. If you are modifying your 5.7 Hemi, this is the channel to watch. I provide unbiased, I have no ties to any business or sponsors, opinion on options that I have purchased or have done extensive research on. Sit back, relax and enjoy the video.
Here is the list of current modifications:
Drag Pack:
17” Race Star Skinnies up front (Hossier 27.5/4.5/17)
18” Bravada in the rear (Hoosier 28/10.5/18)
Street Set Up:
Front: 20x9.5 Demon Replicas with Nitto 555 G2 (275/40/20)
Rear: 20x10.5 Demon Replicas with Nitto 555 R (305/35/20)
D-1X Procharger
Procharger upgraded Race Intercooler
Procharger upgraded fuel pump
FIC-650 Injectors
HHP/BES Stage 3 Heads
1320 Scat Pack Rear Springs
BMR Upper Trailing Arms
BMR Lower Control Arms
3.09 Limited Slip Differential
6.4L/392 Intake Manifold
Modern Muscle Extreme 87mm Throttle Body
Stock Dodge Shaker Cold Air Intake
Dodge Scat Pack Stage 2 Cam (Comp Cam 270 and without Stage 2 PCM)
Non MDS Lifters
Kooks Long Tube Headers
Kooks Green High Flow Catted mid pipe
Borla ATAK catback exhaust
160 Degree thermostat
Circle D 3800 stall torque converter
Jay Greene 93 octane tune for the street and 100 octane race tune
Music provided by: Vlog No Copyright Music
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Ok, I know I have done a couple videos on the rear differential issue but I promise, this is the last one. Though the numbers and times don't make sense to me, maybe they can make sense to some of you. Appreciate all the support!
Again, I truly and give a heart felt thank you to all of you that support the channel. I would not have gotten this far without you die hard supporters! Please keep supporting and help garner more support! You have been my inspiration to start this channel and I am so glad I did.
MODERN DAY HEMI REMEMBER THE NAME WHEN THIS CHANNEL BLOWS UP!
Thanks brother! One day hopefully!
Shake N Bake is looking badass. Those mountains look beautiful by the way.
Thanks brother. Those mountains are most definitely beautiful.
@@ModernRedHemi Was that located in Maryland.
I believe the 3.09s are the better choice with the 8sp. Sounds like you are not to far away from a WOT rip with the Procharger. Watching the scenery on your drive reminded me of my 2018 trip to Chryslers at Carlisle, I really enjoyed PA.
I think a couple more stop and go's and then we will be ready to let'er rip! Thanks for watching and supporting the channel!
When I switched from 2.62 to 3.09s I definitely noticed more low end torque during launch and the 1-2 2-3 shifts were noticeably happening sooner (at lower speeds). My downshifts at low speeds have more bite with the gear reduction. I would think you would notice the opposite effect and would stay in 1st 2nd and 3rd longer with the taller 3.09s. Smaller tire size and track prep might have had an impact on your last NA runs too. ET should be a wash with the gears in the A8. In theory maybe some advantage in the 8th mile going to the 3.70’s and improved mpg on the highway with the 3.09s due to lower rpms in 8th gear. Anyway, you have a great setup now and your videos have been fun to watch and learn from - have made me consider spending my money on mods more effectively. Thanks for the shake n bake chronicles!
All great points. I am with you on the 1/8 mile discussion.
I believe your thinking about it backwards the higher the number the shorter the gear... for example 2.65 is longer than 3.09! That explains why the car shifts so quickly
I may have had a senior moment and need to be corrected in my comment to swap “taller” and “shorter” but the thought process was sound. He will leave a little softer with 3.09 and arrive with a little more MPH.... the opposite of me going from taller to shorter gears. Many variables to consider though too such as tire size (which also changed) , weather, trans tune and more....and now that he has the ProCharger he has a whole different animal. He has a very interesting combination of mods.
I agree!...ill get there one day lol
The 28-26 tire diameter is pretty significant !! With 28-inch tires, you would need a 3.82 rear-axle gear to match vehicle performance with 26-inch tires and 3.55 gears. Since a 3.82 gear is not offered for most rear axles, you will need to choose a gear between 3.73 and 3.90 to get close to th
Agree about the tires. I knew everyone was going to hit me up on them. The only reason I kept the 26" tires were for the comparison, Same set up on both gears produced the same result. Just doesn't make sense.
First of all always dope content…I know Im a little late, but you have any info on how the 3.70 gears work w/ a 6.4 hemi?? Preciate it in advance
Thanks brother! I do not but know of a few folks putting the 3.90's in there with some good results. 😉
@@ModernRedHemi all good man…been following you & Shake N Bake for some years now & @R/Tlife….you guys definitely are some Hemi ambassadors…NEway thanks for the info I’ll look into the 3.90’s
Do it again iwith the procharger before you sell it. Im wondering if more HP would work better with the 3.70. This has blown my mind. I wanted the 3.70 and the extra cost had me buy the 3.09. You should do better roll races now.
What did Jay say about it?
With the 3.70 what gear were you in at the 1/4? Did you end up in the middle of 6th and flatten out? Did the 3.09 have u finish in 5th?
My brain has exploded!!!
My brain hurts as well. I am information overload for sure. I believe I was finishing in 5th with both gears but have to go back and look.
Well the better mpg has a lot to do with the 3.09 vs the 3.70 , I think if you had swapped to a 28” tall tire you’d hit the 11s Friday night , but even tho the da was low the humidity was actually high 75-80% (moisture is a killer for N/A cars ) and even some boosted cars.
Mike, agree. A 28" tire would have been better with both gears, it was an ordering snafu on my part.
Alright so much information I dont know which way to go? I have a 2019 dodge charger rt and 3.09 3.70 3.90. I dont want to cam, boost, or procharger. Its a daily driver and I will like to put just long tube headers ,tune eventually. What gears do you recommend please? So much info on youtube. I'm lost.
My car is a 2016 Challenger and I tried the 3.73 compared to the 3.09 gears. For me and my set up, the 3.09s worked better. As for the 3.90, I don't have any experience with them. I do love the 3.09 gears though!
Did mph change? What gear do you cross the traps in with the 3.09 vs the 3.70?
MPH did go up a little with the 3.09 gears which totally makes sense. I cross in 5th gear with bother gearing.
Yooo I just started watching your videos what year is your car
Glad you found me! 2016. All of the mods are in the description as well.💪💪💪
What's the best manual transmission street setup for a factory geared 2013 5.7? Differential I wanna set mine up for big hp
Just my opinion and from what I've seen, most stick folks use the 3.90 or 3.70. 😉 Either of those will hold the power.
Looking forward for some time slips.
I am as well brother! Hopefully in the next week or so.
The problem could be that the engine rpm doesn't match the gearing, since your mph was the highest I've seen in your videos with the 3.09 by about 1 to 2 mph. Another possibility is that the 3.70 gears plus the tq converter overpower the tires and don't consistently hook up, that would explain why in the videos I've seen 3.09 gears are so consistent with your combo but the 3.70s are up and down. I have had the same issue with a similar weight car that made a lot of torque , until I found a way to get more traction I was stuck in the low 12s, even though the car felt much quicker on the street driving around, I lost about 1-2mph at the track and my consistency was gone. If a friend hadn't seen that I was spinning my slicks EVERY time I wouldn't have ever thought that was the issue.
Spinning could have been an issue though I didn't feel it. Looking back at the 60' times, they were pretty consistent so I don't think that was the issue. Wish I had someone watch to see if I was spinning with the 3.70s.
I wasn't able to feel the slicks spin, but when I went to a softer compound and suspension changes I dropped into the 11.60 range and my mph picked back up.
I wish I knew what rear gears I have but the sticker to show the ratio isn't on my diff. Previous owner took it off. I have a 2014 redline edirion rt challenger and the gears feel long like a 3.09 and its definitely an open differential.
Mine is a Super Track Pack and came with a 3.08 Open Diff. If I am not mistaken the 2014's still had the GETRAG rear diff and it is more than likely an open diff.
@@ModernRedHemi yeah mine is an open diff for sure. I might have to send a message to dodge to figure out my rear hear ratio. Or just save to swap it out for an limited slip diff 🤷♂️
@@mattjingles5758 if you are going to go to the strip or do any racing I’d get an LSD.
What does the difference look like on a dyno chart vs stock gears?
That's a great question. I didn't get to dyno the 3.70s to see the difference. If I go back to the 3.70, I will definitely do it. 💪💪💪
Hey I got some info for you and a nice video if you decide to do it I was looking at your last dyno video with the new heads but I believe if you go and make one more dyno video with your mds box activated at 48k instead of 4000k you will see more power across the low end and more up top. If you go look at Donny rt dyno video and see how he adjusted his mds box he eliminated the dip the short runners give you and instead had a spike up in his dyno. Would make for a nice video and solid info and thanks for the good videos
Well, little late and I didn't make a video but we adjusted the MDS and I think it's at 4700 or 4800. Thanks for looking out though!
Modern Red Hemi okay and how much of a difference did it make through out the power band and up top I’m interested to see
@@jibreelpruitt8312 don't have any video or dyno results but definitely helped at the track, like a tenth or two and 2-3 MPH through the trap.
yeah im thinking about the 3.09 gears myself, I hear 3.70 aren't to bad though?
3.70s are great. I just didn’t see any difference time wise.
Those are the numbers of the gear ratios, yes but the tire height has a big effect on those ratios. If your original tires were say 25" tall then you put on a 29 " slick you've just changed your gesr ratio to 2:21 as an example. It's a combination of tire diameter and gear ratio. So putting in a lower gear ratio then putting a taller tire on doesn't give you the gear ratio that you. In other words if the original geat ratio was 3:09 with a 25" tire and you then put on a 29" tire your gear ratio has gone to 2:21...highway gears. If you now put a set of 3:92 gears with the same 25" tire you now have 3:92 gears, but not if you change the tire to a 29" tire height.
Thanks for clarifying the tire size. I knew that going in but ordered 26" tires for some unknown reason (lol). But this experiment utilized the same tires and tune which produced the same numbers on the time slip. Understand that humidity was significantly different the conclusion may have been a little bit more clear.
Does that make sense to you. In other words with a 29" tire you would probably need 4:30 gears to end up with 3:92 "true" ratio.
Yup, absolutely makes sense. Thanks for getting me straight.
I got a 2014 5speed wat do u think will be good for my car 🤔🤔
I think either the 3.70 or the 3.90 gears would do you some justice. First and Second on the 8 speeds are so low and quick I just think the 3.09s run better. My opinion with some runs to show it. 💪💪💪
So which one as of now do you recommend for a streetcar, so in the future, my 5.7 will get pretty much 60% of the mods you have.
3.09 or 3.70
For the 8 speed, I suggest the 3.09 for both street and track. That's just my opinion (like doctors, we all have opinions but they all get you to roughly the same spot). The 3.09 on the street will keep your top end but still give you a good launch. 💪💪💪
@@ModernRedHemi gotcha, so It is still better to get a 3.09 even if I'll be doing headers, suspension, intake and internals down the road? I'm gonna gonna try and push 420hp as a solid mid build goal, 3.09 still what you recommend?
@@ModernRedHemi for a manual?
Modern Red Hemi for the 5speed?
what about a 3.09 vs 3.06, is there a big difference? 🧐
IMO I wouldn't think so. Maybe a mph or so, if that in the 1/4.
Maybe if your trans wasn’t tuned it might make a slight difference but because these cars are so dialed in from the factory and the aggressive nature of the ZF A8 it’s nit gunna make a difference. Now if you had a Nag1 5pd it would make up because the gearing is so far apart in that trans. This goes for the big three you rarely hear rear ratio changes with these modern cars with ZF autos ford Chevy etc etc minus the manual cars because as stated the gearing is spread farther apart.
I totally agree with you there. I think it's between the transmission and the rear diff. I think with a Nag1 5 speed there would have been a big difference.
Which gears do you think is better for the NAG1 5spd transmission?
@@Khe247 I am not as familiar with the NAG1 5 speed but definitely think the 3.70 would work well (several folks I know have done this swap).
What road you Cruising on in this video?
Interstate 80 in PA. Heading towards Williamsport.
What would be the best option for a 2006 5.7. 5 speed ?
I think either would be great. I believe there are other options out there for the Getrags though. 😉
Getrag 3.73fd
The big difference is 1st gear when it comes to the 2 differentials. With the 3.70s and a 26" tire, for all practical purposes you have no 1st gear. If you're shifting from 1st to 2nd at 6400 RPM the car is only doing 27 MPH. You're not even at the 60 foot before the shift. Whatever time you gain out of the hole is lost by the shift. You also lose at the end of the quarter mile with the 3.70 gears because you have an additional shift. With the 3.09s you finish in 5th gear and with the 3.70s you finish in 6th. The best combination for your car naturally aspirated is either the 3.70s with 28" tires or 3.09s with 26" tires. With the Procharger, you'll add about another 10 mph at the end. The 3.09s with a 26" tire will be the best combination for a couple reasons. First you will have a usable 1st gear. Second, you should be close to the end of 5th gear at the end of the quarter mile.
Thanks brother. All very good points and bring some insight to the numbers.
Well with the 3.09 he’ll like the 28” tall tire , it will make the effective gear ratio about 3.13 and still trap in the top of 5th gear even with the procharger mph will be around 120-125
@@widebody_moparmike - The RPM would be 5700-5800 with a 28" tire. I would prefer the 26" tire because it would be closer to redline.
Hu 3.7 his shifts will need to be more like 6200-6300 to stay up in the boost through out the gears which will put him at the top of 5th
You have to remember that with a new performance car from the factory with an 8 speed trans, the engineering department tuned the combination for great performance first and fuel economy second. High torque motors give you pretty much low end grunt so lower rear end gears just mean it shifts sooner and more times in the quarter mile. Your car should have some pretty low gear ratios in first and second. If you switch to taller tires, then you might need to use lower gears in the rear. Otherwise you are just trying to outsmart the Chrysler engineers.
All great points brother. At this point I am done switching gears and sticking with the 3.09 with a 28" tire for now. That is pretty much stock gears (stock was a 3.08 open diff) and tire size (stock tires are either 28" or 28.5").
Boy, I sure wish I had your weather. Here in south Florida, as of today, we have 89 degrees during the day with 85% humidity (feels like 122 degrees on heat index).
My 0-60 times run around the high 4s to low 5s during this time, while during the winter that’s where I hit my low 4s (best was a 4.1) with 40 degrees and 25% humidity (feels like 35 degrees).
It’s only “cold” here (I say “cold” because the coldest it gets is like 40) 3 out of the 12 months of the year. So quarter mile times and 0-60s during the summer here will always be slower compared to normal runs on a cool day. Can’t wait to move somewhere a little less hot!!
Boy you have that right. Heat and humidity (specifically humidity) are time killers!
Don't give up now, if you want to be successful. You just need actual numbers to work with, not numbers that are confusing the issue. You need to know your true rear end ratio to start with.
Agree brother! Wish there was more time in the day! LOL...
Tell me something, how do you launch the car? It looks like all you're doing is flat stabbing the throttle. What rpm do you leave the line at. I think you told me you had a modified torque converter. What rpm do you go through the finish line at? You have to remember Shake & Bake is a mechanical thing and a lower gear will make it pull harder to 60 ft. No if's and's or but's with these qualifiers. Traction, or running out of rpm in the traps for example. Ask your mechanic to calculate what gear you need to go through the traps at redline taking into consideration tire size and redline, and your automatic if that makes a difference at all. Again l asked you before, what tire height were you original stock tires so you can calculate your Real gear ratio.In other words, you might actually have gone from 3:09's with stock tires to 3:23's with a tire that is taller than your original Stock Size tire height. So all things being equal, with a taller tire than stock your 3:09's might be 2:70's with a taller tire and your 3:70's might be 3:23's. Measure the height of your original tires, that's the most important part of this exercise so you can pick a proper ratio to get you right at redline (or close) when you're crossing the finish line. Ask your mechanic if he can do the calculation for you, then go from there. Then at least you'll be dealing with numbers that mean something.
Roger that brother! I'll try and work the numbers to see what they come out to be. Appreciate all the help and input. You are really getting me smart! 😉
Until you can run with your 10 second friend, you have a lot of research to do. The guy you raced in your 12:245 run l think his 60 ft was 1.5 roughly.
Yea, he has that Scat, also Procharged, running great!
You would have to make a bigger change to the ratio to see a bigger difference. I only saw your first run which was 12:245 which was a 1/4 second slower with the 3:09 in the car, so if you ran 2 slow times and then 12:00's something changed! I think you would have to go to 4:11 gear ratio the same tires. Don't give up now. With a significant change you should see a much better 60 ft time hence a 11 second et. Ask your mechanic he should know the science of drag racing, and what a lower gear should do for your car. Something isn't right, what l saw with the 3:09 was considerably slower than the 3:70 gears. So if you go to 3:92 or 4:11 or 4:30's. Quarter mile time should get faster and faster unless you loose traction or run out of rpm before the end of the quarter. The runs might be do to atmospheric changes. A quarter second was a big drop to explain?
I agree. Not sure what made that type of change. I didn't do anything with the car. Once of those weird things that just doesn't have an explanation. I am going back to 28" tires as that is what I ran my best times with. Thanks for all the information and I am sucking it all in for sure.
If you go back to 28" height you'll be heading into the 2: ratio range. You might go through the traps in 1st gear...lol. You have to do an analysis of what gear ratio you have. Just changing tires and gears with no rhyme or reason is just wasting your money. Is tjere any racecar builder near you that you can talk to about setting up your car properly for the 1/4 mile. It's too bad we're so far away from each other as l would give you a hand. You might talk to a gear manufacturer and give them the tire diameter you're going to use and your redline and ask them if they can calculate what gear you need to use to cross the finish line at redline or close. You might need is your transmission gear ratio's, which is easy to look up.
@@paulwitham2220 thanks again brother. It's a lot more than I ever thought to take in. Still processing it all. I'll check for a builder around here that could help. I really do appreciate the help!
🔥🏁👍🌮
Thanks for supporting the channel! It means a lot.
I've been trying to tell my friends that in an AUTOMATIC car, a rear gear change doesn't do a whole lot drag racing. Roll racing it feels like it pulls harder with a lower gear ratio. On my old ass drag racing dyno/drag program, gear changes on an auto didn't do a whole lot. On the same program and real world, going from a 3.42 to a 4.10, in a MANUAL car brought ET's down by a solid 3 tenths.
For my set up the 3.70s didn't make a difference though science says it should have. The 8 speeds love the 3.09 gears way better than the others. 💪
@@ModernRedHemi - Imagine how much R&D Dodge does when developing these cars. They probably have a dozen test mules with different transmission gear(s) and rear end setup(s) (combinations) for real world acceleration, tire and fuel efficiency testing. No way they just bench test this stuff on a laptop and say let's go into production with these "virtual" findings.
The air was a lot better a Cecil humidity was only 47 percent friday the humidity was 77 percent to much water in the air can't burn water!
That is a fair point that I didn't bring up. I do believe the 3.09 LSD is better for my set up though.
Modern Red Hemi once the da get under 500 feet seems the humidity affect the car more just seeing you had 1.69 sixty if the car was making anymore power which you would of had more mph I think you would hit the 11s
I don't know all of the calculations myself so I would say definitely go online and start dumping information into a performance calculator for both the 3.09 and the 3.70s. I was originally a bit surprised when you said you were stepping back up to the 3.09 LSD because of how tall that would make fourth gear. I wasn't counting the gears on the last video but if you hit a gear that is made tall enough by the final drive it will eat up your time just like making first and second so short with the 3.70s. I thought you would've tried a 3.55, or 3.23 LSD with the 26" tires. Possibly 3.55 in anticipation of going back to the 28". I drove my first Charger R/T with the ZF (stock no tune) the other day, and first and second went quick, that's where my opinion of equalization comes from. By the way I'm glad you didn't break out on the last one but know you'll be getting cheers in St Louis when you crack 11.999.
Jay also suggest 3.55 gears but Dodge doesn't make their closed diffs in that gearing. I knew I would get a bunch of comments on the tires. I am going back to 28" tires since that is what I was running prior to the ordering snafu that got me 26" tires. Probably need more information to make a clear differentiation between the two gearing but I am just going to stick with 3.09s for now.
@@ModernRedHemi totally agree. My opinion wasn't offered to spend your money. Throw some numbers at one of those calculators, they're not 100% because all conditions are optimal, but should give you ideas on where to go. Oh yeah, and they're free, that's a great price.
@@ModernRedHemi also after you're able to lay into that ProCharger a little bit things are bound to change
@@TA_Plus_Hemi for sure!
@@TA_Plus_Hemi thanks brother! I really appreciate the input and help!
I have the factory 3:92 gears in my 04 Ram with the Hemi. For a fat girl she's pretty fast lol.....
LOL... the 3.92 gears work really well with the Rams.
3.09 definitely hurt my top end..
You have that backwards. The 3.70 gear would lower your top end.
@@ryotaryuu I have a 3.09 in my charger and i can assure you it does.
@@Shanbo Ask anyone.
I assure you it doesn't. Have you tried the 3.70 gears in your car? No? Then how can you compare them? You can't.
@@Shanbo And no your R/T 5.7 has 3.07 gears not the 3.09 limited slip. The 5.7 never came with 3.09. Same as my charger R/T.
@@ryotaryuu Go back and read what I said. 3.09 definitely hurt 'MY' top end. I'm not comparing it to a 3.70 im speaking on my vehicle and the noticeable difference.
i got the 3.09 lsd in my charger i would have got the 3.70 if i found one i didn't know it existed at the time but im happy i got gears period the 2.62 open is trash
the gears really help at higher speeds bro around 5th gear in my 8 speed easier for the hemi to push its fatass through the air
For sure. The LSD is a definite upgrade in any gearing from an open diff.
It is a combination of torque multiplication in the gear ranges with the 8 speed. I have a new car with 3.09s and an 8 speed and it is perfect. I had a SRT 2014 Charger with a nag 5 speed and it was a dog with 3.09s and needed a 3.70 in the worst way.
Agree 100%! The 8 speeds love the 3.09. Yeah, the NAG 5 speeds need some extra rear gearing to get going. 💪