The 3 Harpsichord Concerto of K107 are arrangements of J C Bach Sonatas for Fortepiano or Harpsichord. A young Mozart spent 8 months in England with John Bach receiving instruction, one could say that after Mozart’s father J C Bach was the other important teacher, along with C P E Bach’s Treatise on the True Art of Keyboard Playing. Upon hearing of J C Bach’s death Mozart said “what a great loss to Music. Count van Swieten would introduce Mozart to the works of J S Bach and Handel.
Mozart was in London from April 1764 until July 1765 so the trip was longer than you suggested. I think the time spent with JC must have been a breath of fresh air after the rather stuffy approach of his father who anyway, was using the Grand Tour - of which the time in London was a large part - primarily to exhibit his two precocious children as performers. In London, besides JC Bach, we know Mozart was absorbing much else musically - the symphony in E flat (K18) for example was mistakenly attributed to him as he had copied out the work by JC’s partner Carl Friedrich Abel, so the extant manuscript in Mozart’s hand gave rise to the mis-attribution. Mozart definitely bloomed in London, and the significant time spent with JC was a major factor in that, indeed Mozart spoke highly of him for the rest of his life in a manner reserved for very few others; that said, his father was his only real teacher, though Mozart throughout his life learned a huge amount in differing ways from others including JC Bach, Padre Martini, Joseph and Michael Haydn, along with his studies of JS Bach and Handel. The Versuch was as you say a key part of the musical consciousness of Mozart, as it was of Haydn and Beethoven; otherwise, in relation to Mozart, I think the alleged and perceived influence of CPE Bach on him is hugely overstated. You mention Baron van Swieten as being responsible for introducing Mozart to Bach and Handel, the former certainly, but I find it inconceivable that Mozart did not come across Handel whilst in London in 1764/65. Nearly thirty years later, between 1791 and 1795, when he visited England, Haydn was overwhelmed by the performances of Handel he heard in London; Mozart must surely have had some similar experiences.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 The eight months time spent with J C Bach is documented. If you look at the Mozart's first 3 keyboard concertos, if without a number, these arrangements (and future models for concertos) source from three keyboard sonatas by Johann Christian Bach. These sonatas are from J.C. Bach's Op. 5; Mozart turned Sonata No. 2 in D, Sonata No. 3 in G, and Sonata No. 4 in E♭ from this set into the three concertos of K. 107. The Versuch of C P E Bach was influential as Mozart said, it also influence Mozart's father to write his Violin School. Leopold Mozart's stature among violinists often overlooks his other instrument, he was skilled organist, as his son would also become with his appointment to St. Stephens. Leopold was also an agent for the sale of clavichords.
@@Renshen1957 Agree with every word of your comment - thanks for troubling to reply. The 18th century was indeed a time of composers writing manuals of all sorts; CPE Bach’s Versuch was particularly well known (studied by all the greats of the time and the basis of future keyboard playing guides), and as you say Leopold’s violin manual; Quantz’s On Playing the Flute being another example. I’m happy to accept any talk of ‘influence’ in regards to CPE Bach so long as it is kept in a box, is very specific, and not blown out of all proportion led by out of context clickbait headline quotes from Mozart in particular (the ‘father…’ nonsense). I play all twelve of JC Bach’s piano sonatas - the six Opus 5 and the six Opus 17, they are delightful, straightforward works that are enjoyable both to play and to listen to; Mozart’s arrangements are curiosities and interesting novelties written sometime after his London visit (c.1770). I think K107 are best described as Mozart in the workshop. I’m always a little wary about taking anything about Leopold Mozart at face value unless the concrete evidence is in front of us (the violin school). Leopold’s blind ambition on his son’s behalf sometimes led him astray, most notably with his calumny about Michael Haydn’s drinking and consequent poor organ playing* which was I believe nothing more than a crude attempt to spread unpleasant tales motivated by jealousy about a composer who firstly led the 1st violins at Salzburg (Leopold was a 2nd), and secondly, he saw as a rival to his son for key posts and commissions at the Archbishop’s court.** It’s clear from almost all the organ works of the Classical period - or where organ parts appeared in masses for example - that they were extremely simple manual-only parts that compared poorly with the great works from the earlier part of the century; I do not know about Leopold’s prowess as a player, and I am sure Wolfgang was competent as well, as we know were both Haydn brothers, but I don’t really see any of them anywhere near the standard of JS Bach and the like. In short, if your source about Leopold’s organ playing is Leopold himself (‘…a skilled organist’) then question marks would arise for me, along with the fact that in the 1770’s, being a skilled organist did not mean in Austria what it did in Germany fifty years earlier. I would be interested to know if I am in error about this. * There is absolutely no corroborating evidence for this story to my knowledge apart from the testimony of Leopold Mozart; this is surprising to say the least, indeed if it had been as suggested by Leopold, Michael Haydn would have been dismissed. ** The only reason Michael Haydn got the commission for the Archbishop’s requiem in 1771 was the fact that Mozart had been in Italy.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Both Haydn and Beethoven owned copies of the Versuch (as well as J J Fux's Gradus Ad Parnussum, which young Mozart also used the excercises) and of course Mozart (previously mentioned). Daniel Gottlob Türk (student of the same teacher as Neefe, Beethoven's first teacher of note) wrote a keyboard method. Beethoven insisted that the young Carl Czerny have a copy of the Versuch with him after Beethoven accepted him as a student for his first lesson (Beethoven taught Czerny for free). The Versuch was the model for both Clementi and Cramer fortepiano methods. Mozart's Student Hummel in 1829 published The Art of Playing The Piano (a variation of CPE Bach's title) The original Versuch remained in print into the 19th century, a 19th C revised version in print until the later half of the 1850's. There's other methods, but trying to keep this in the box. The Opus 5 (1765) for Fortepiano or Harpsichord but the later Opus 17 (1780) was published as for Harpsichord or Fortepiano, and for good reason, the wealthy (aristocracy and others as well) were purchasing Shudi (later Shudi & Broadwood, later Broadwood) Kirkmann, the label brand Longman & (fill in the brand name) Grand Harpsichords with machine stops and Venetian Swells activated by pedals (capable of crescendo, dimuendo sudden changes of stops (thus volume), well into about 1792 when the Grand form of the Fortepiano became popular and produced by Broadwood in London. Frederick the Great purchased three (not 15 as Forkel exaggerates) Silbermann Forte Pianos in the 1740's, but Frederick II purchased Three of the English "Expressive Harpsichords", as did the Empress of Austrian Hungarian Empire (mid 1770's), Haydn did circa 1780, and the Queen of England (and J C Bach's patron) who traded in a Grand Ravallment Ruckers Harpsichord which she brought with her from Germany. Former President George Washington purchased Broderip Expressive Harpsichord in 1792 for Nelly Custus, with Peau de Buffle leather instead of quill in all the Jacks. The square piano was indeed popular (inexpensive and small), but rather quiet and eventually supplanted the Spinet (harpsichords) as the appartment and middle class keyboard instrument. The opus 5 would have cost 7% of the annual wage of a clerk (middle class) working for the East India Company in London. His wage was worth 1000 loafs of bread 1250 pounds of Potatoes His Proficient house keeper would pay 28% of her annual wage for Opus 5. I've put away the reference on Leopold, I will reply when I have retrieved it. Papa Mozart was in Salzburg when J. E Erbelin was organist (20th Century Organist played and incuded Erberlin's organ pieces in his publications of organ pieces) and Kappelmeister. By the time J E E died in 1762 L. Mozart was 2nd Violinist and would succeed Erberlin as Kappelmeister the following year. Multi-instrumentalists were the order of the day, Leopold also was an agent for the sale of clavichords. Then there's Mozart's older sister who before the custom of the day had to give up her career for marriage at 21 years old, was also considered the finest virtuoso at the keyboard. Leopold was both Nannerl and Wolfgang's teacher. J S Bach's first instrument as a child, was a Violin.Although better known for his skill as an organist, Papa Bach preferred to lead orchestras from the Viola. He was proficient enough to own a Stainer Violin which was more highly regarded in its day than Stradavarius. Handel first job, for an opera company, was as a Violinist. Flute (Recorder Players often doubled on Oboes (Pfeifers), Quantz first job was as an Oboist (until 1718) when the increase popularity of Flute on the rise he switched to gain fame as a Transverse Flute player. Leopold's duties in for the Prince Archbishop in Salzburg (4th Violionist) included teaching violin to which keyboard player was added. As to Versuch einer gründlichen Violinschule, 1755 publication comes two years after Versuch über die wahre Art das Clavier zu spielen Pt 1 in 1753, and Quantz Versuch einer Anweisung die Flöte traversiere zu spielen (1752), however both being at the same place same employer, one can state this two influence each other as to the title. I can't find the reference, however although published later, C P E Bach's work was finished first. And yet Versuch (Essay) as the title for such works is more than a coincidence.
@@Renshen1957 Read carefully and noted with interest, especially as it contained some information with which I was not familiar - thank you. Just few points regarding the JC Bach keyboard sonatas (including one or two corrections). i) Like much keyboard music of the time, whilst published as being for harpsichord or pianoforte, both the earlier Opus 5 and later Opus 17 are clearly conceived as idiomatic piano* music, not harpsichord music. The Preface in my Henle edition is clear that JC played these sonatas in public on the piano in London in the 1760’s. ii) According to the very reliable and reputable Henle: Opus 5 was published in London in 1766, with a reprint in Amsterdam the same year. Opus 17 was published: in Paris in 1773 or 1774 (as Opus 12); in Vienna in 1777 as Opus 6; then in London in 1779 as the definitive Opus 17; and then in Amsterdam later in 1779 also as Opus 17. (All these publications pre-date your erroneous 1780). iii) Regarding Opus 5: though published in 1766, it is reasonable to suggest that JC composed them slightly earlier and that Mozart knew them whilst in London between April 1764 and July 1765 where we know he spent much time with JC. It is interesting to speculate what it was five years later in 1770** that prompted Mozart to revisit the three JC sonatas that he turned into the three concertos K107. * I use the terms piano, pianoforte, and fortepiano synonymously and interchangeably in the context of this discussion, meaning simply a modern hammer-mechanism rather than an old-style plucked keyboard instrument. ** There is some persuasive evidence that these arrangements might in fact be slightly later c.1771/72.
Может быть, но вряд ли Моцарт прописал в партитуре смену регистров клавесина, так что либо это сделали редакторы, либо это исполнительская импровизация, а значит, не компьютер. Хотя компьютер тоже, наверное, может так импровизировать.
Mozart's jollity combined with the harpsichord's sound is heavenly
Mozart sempre foi perfeito, e este concerto para cravo está maravilhoso 👏👏
Primo ascolto di questo concerto
The 3 Harpsichord Concerto of K107 are arrangements of J C Bach Sonatas for Fortepiano or Harpsichord. A young Mozart spent 8 months in England with John Bach receiving instruction, one could say that after Mozart’s father J C Bach was the other important teacher, along with C P E Bach’s Treatise on the True Art of Keyboard Playing. Upon hearing of J C Bach’s death Mozart said “what a great loss to Music. Count van Swieten would introduce Mozart to the works of J S Bach and Handel.
Mozart was in London from April 1764 until July 1765 so the trip was longer than you suggested.
I think the time spent with JC must have been a breath of fresh air after the rather stuffy approach of his father who anyway, was using the Grand Tour - of which the time in London was a large part - primarily to exhibit his two precocious children as performers.
In London, besides JC Bach, we know Mozart was absorbing much else musically - the symphony in E flat (K18) for example was mistakenly attributed to him as he had copied out the work by JC’s partner Carl Friedrich Abel, so the extant manuscript in Mozart’s hand gave rise to the mis-attribution.
Mozart definitely bloomed in London, and the significant time spent with JC was a major factor in that, indeed Mozart spoke highly of him for the rest of his life in a manner reserved for very few others; that said, his father was his only real teacher, though Mozart throughout his life learned a huge amount in differing ways from others including JC Bach, Padre Martini, Joseph and Michael Haydn, along with his studies of JS Bach and Handel.
The Versuch was as you say a key part of the musical consciousness of Mozart, as it was of Haydn and Beethoven; otherwise, in relation to Mozart, I think the alleged and perceived influence of CPE Bach on him is hugely overstated.
You mention Baron van Swieten as being responsible for introducing Mozart to Bach and Handel, the former certainly, but I find it inconceivable that Mozart did not come across Handel whilst in London in 1764/65.
Nearly thirty years later, between 1791 and 1795, when he visited England, Haydn was overwhelmed by the performances of Handel he heard in London; Mozart must surely have had some similar experiences.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 The eight months time spent with J C Bach is documented. If you look at the Mozart's first 3 keyboard concertos, if without a number, these arrangements (and future models for concertos) source from three keyboard sonatas by Johann Christian Bach. These sonatas are from J.C. Bach's Op. 5; Mozart turned Sonata No. 2 in D, Sonata No. 3 in G, and Sonata No. 4 in E♭ from this set into the three concertos of K. 107. The Versuch of C P E Bach was influential as Mozart said, it also influence Mozart's father to write his Violin School. Leopold Mozart's stature among violinists often overlooks his other instrument, he was skilled organist, as his son would also become with his appointment to St. Stephens. Leopold was also an agent for the sale of clavichords.
@@Renshen1957
Agree with every word of your comment - thanks for troubling to reply.
The 18th century was indeed a time of composers writing manuals of all sorts; CPE Bach’s Versuch was particularly well known (studied by all the greats of the time and the basis of future keyboard playing guides), and as you say Leopold’s violin manual; Quantz’s On Playing the Flute being another example.
I’m happy to accept any talk of ‘influence’ in regards to CPE Bach so long as it is kept in a box, is very specific, and not blown out of all proportion led by out of context clickbait headline quotes from Mozart in particular (the ‘father…’ nonsense).
I play all twelve of JC Bach’s piano sonatas - the six Opus 5 and the six Opus 17, they are delightful, straightforward works that are enjoyable both to play and to listen to; Mozart’s arrangements are curiosities and interesting novelties written sometime after his London visit (c.1770).
I think K107 are best described as Mozart in the workshop.
I’m always a little wary about taking anything about Leopold Mozart at face value unless the concrete evidence is in front of us (the violin school).
Leopold’s blind ambition on his son’s behalf sometimes led him astray, most notably with his calumny about Michael Haydn’s drinking and consequent poor organ playing* which was I believe nothing more than a crude attempt to spread unpleasant tales motivated by jealousy about a composer who firstly led the 1st violins at Salzburg (Leopold was a 2nd), and secondly, he saw as a rival to his son for key posts and commissions at the Archbishop’s court.**
It’s clear from almost all the organ works of the Classical period - or where organ parts appeared in masses for example - that they were extremely simple manual-only parts that compared poorly with the great works from the earlier part of the century; I do not know about Leopold’s prowess as a player, and I am sure Wolfgang was competent as well, as we know were both Haydn brothers, but I don’t really see any of them anywhere near the standard of JS Bach and the like.
In short, if your source about Leopold’s organ playing is Leopold himself (‘…a skilled organist’) then question marks would arise for me, along with the fact that in the 1770’s, being a skilled organist did not mean in Austria what it did in Germany fifty years earlier.
I would be interested to know if I am in error about this.
* There is absolutely no corroborating evidence for this story to my knowledge apart from the testimony of Leopold Mozart; this is surprising to say the least, indeed if it had been as suggested by Leopold, Michael Haydn would have been dismissed.
** The only reason Michael Haydn got the commission for the Archbishop’s requiem in 1771 was the fact that Mozart had been in Italy.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Both Haydn and Beethoven owned copies of the Versuch (as well as J J Fux's Gradus Ad Parnussum, which young Mozart also used the excercises) and of course Mozart (previously mentioned). Daniel Gottlob Türk (student of the same teacher as Neefe, Beethoven's first teacher of note) wrote a keyboard method. Beethoven insisted that the young Carl Czerny have a copy of the Versuch with him after Beethoven accepted him as a student for his first lesson (Beethoven taught Czerny for free). The Versuch was the model for both Clementi and Cramer fortepiano methods. Mozart's Student Hummel in 1829 published The Art of Playing The Piano (a variation of CPE Bach's title) The original Versuch remained in print into the 19th century, a 19th C revised version in print until the later half of the 1850's. There's other methods, but trying to keep this in the box.
The Opus 5 (1765) for Fortepiano or Harpsichord but the later Opus 17 (1780) was published as for Harpsichord or Fortepiano, and for good reason, the wealthy (aristocracy and others as well) were purchasing Shudi (later Shudi & Broadwood, later Broadwood) Kirkmann, the label brand Longman & (fill in the brand name) Grand Harpsichords with machine stops and Venetian Swells activated by pedals (capable of crescendo, dimuendo sudden changes of stops (thus volume), well into about 1792 when the Grand form of the Fortepiano became popular and produced by Broadwood in London.
Frederick the Great purchased three (not 15 as Forkel exaggerates) Silbermann Forte Pianos in the 1740's, but Frederick II purchased Three of the English "Expressive Harpsichords", as did the Empress of Austrian Hungarian Empire (mid 1770's), Haydn did circa 1780, and the Queen of England (and J C Bach's patron) who traded in a Grand Ravallment Ruckers Harpsichord which she brought with her from Germany. Former President George Washington purchased Broderip Expressive Harpsichord in 1792 for Nelly Custus, with Peau de Buffle leather instead of quill in all the Jacks. The square piano was indeed popular (inexpensive and small), but rather quiet and eventually supplanted the Spinet (harpsichords) as the appartment and middle class keyboard instrument.
The opus 5 would have cost 7% of the annual wage of a clerk (middle class) working for the East India Company in London. His wage was worth 1000 loafs of bread 1250 pounds of Potatoes His Proficient house keeper would pay 28% of her annual wage for Opus 5.
I've put away the reference on Leopold, I will reply when I have retrieved it. Papa Mozart was in Salzburg when J. E Erbelin was organist (20th Century Organist played and incuded Erberlin's organ pieces in his publications of organ pieces) and Kappelmeister. By the time J E E died in 1762 L. Mozart was 2nd Violinist and would succeed Erberlin as Kappelmeister the following year.
Multi-instrumentalists were the order of the day, Leopold also was an agent for the sale of clavichords. Then there's Mozart's older sister who before the custom of the day had to give up her career for marriage at 21 years old, was also considered the finest virtuoso at the keyboard. Leopold was both Nannerl and Wolfgang's teacher.
J S Bach's first instrument as a child, was a Violin.Although better known for his skill as an organist, Papa Bach preferred to lead orchestras from the Viola. He was proficient enough to own a Stainer Violin which was more highly regarded in its day than Stradavarius. Handel first job, for an opera company, was as a Violinist. Flute (Recorder Players often doubled on Oboes (Pfeifers), Quantz first job was as an Oboist (until 1718) when the increase popularity of Flute on the rise he switched to gain fame as a Transverse Flute player.
Leopold's duties in for the Prince Archbishop in Salzburg (4th Violionist) included teaching violin to which keyboard player was added. As to Versuch einer gründlichen Violinschule, 1755 publication comes two years after Versuch über die wahre Art das Clavier zu spielen Pt 1 in 1753, and Quantz Versuch einer Anweisung die Flöte traversiere zu spielen (1752), however both being at the same place same employer, one can state this two influence each other as to the title. I can't find the reference, however although published later, C P E Bach's work was finished first. And yet Versuch (Essay) as the title for such works is more than a coincidence.
@@Renshen1957
Read carefully and noted with interest, especially as it contained some information with which I was not familiar - thank you.
Just few points regarding the JC Bach keyboard sonatas (including one or two corrections).
i) Like much keyboard music of the time, whilst published as being for harpsichord or pianoforte, both the earlier Opus 5 and later Opus 17 are clearly conceived as idiomatic piano* music, not harpsichord music.
The Preface in my Henle edition is clear that JC played these sonatas in public on the piano in London in the 1760’s.
ii) According to the very reliable and reputable Henle:
Opus 5 was published in London in 1766, with a reprint in Amsterdam the same year.
Opus 17 was published:
in Paris in 1773 or 1774 (as Opus 12);
in Vienna in 1777 as Opus 6;
then in London in 1779 as the definitive Opus 17;
and then in Amsterdam later in 1779 also as Opus 17.
(All these publications pre-date your erroneous 1780).
iii) Regarding Opus 5: though published in 1766, it is reasonable to suggest that JC composed them slightly earlier and that Mozart knew them whilst in London between April 1764 and July 1765 where we know he spent much time with JC.
It is interesting to speculate what it was five years later in 1770** that prompted Mozart to revisit the three JC sonatas that he turned into the three concertos K107.
* I use the terms piano, pianoforte, and fortepiano synonymously and interchangeably in the context of this discussion, meaning simply a modern hammer-mechanism rather than an old-style plucked keyboard instrument.
** There is some persuasive evidence that these arrangements might in fact be slightly later c.1771/72.
Jehova y su divina creacion es amor
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like an electronic/ midi file and not live musicians.
Может быть, но вряд ли Моцарт прописал в партитуре смену регистров клавесина, так что либо это сделали редакторы, либо это исполнительская импровизация, а значит, не компьютер. Хотя компьютер тоже, наверное, может так импровизировать.