Vietnamese is not related to Chinese - but how do we know that?
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- Опубликовано: 19 окт 2024
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Another great video! And you ended up with “năm mới”, the first Vietnamese phrase I learned and was immediately struck by the similarity to Khmer. In Khmer it’s ឆ្នាំថ្មី - Chnam tmeuy. (The initial consonants are aspirated forms -chhnam thmeuy- but when in clusters, they become unaspirated. Transliteration of Khmer is sometimes really confusing because it’s often based on absolute values of symbols rather than actual pronunciation in phonological environment.)
I remember one of your videos where you talked about an old initial consonant cluster “ml” on a word and how it evolved differently in north vs south. You probably know that tones usually develop when there is a shift that merges two minimal pairs. There is one such shift happening in Phnom Penh speech today: Secondary “r” is dropping out of words like “pram” (five) and “srey” (girl), and the words are acquiring a low dipping tone: pram > pạm and srey > sẹy.
Your comment is hay quá anh ơi!!! I've learned a lot!
Na(m mo*i' is new year - Na(m is from Chinese word "Nien" "Nam" meaning combination of the Chinese word "Year" and "South"
@@LearnVietnameseWithAnnie moc hai ba bon nam or 1 2 3 4 5 in Cambodian is Moy Bi Ba Bon Pram
In Thanh Hóa dialect, the word "this" is "ni", the word "foot" is "chưn", showing the relationship between Vietnamese and Khmer, as well as the antiquity of Thanh Hóa compared to current Vietnamese. grand.
There is also some language variation between Vietnamese, Thanh Hoa and Khmer I noticed
tay-tay-dai
chân-chưn-cheung
bụng-bộng-poh
tóc-tóc-sak
lửa-lả- phleung
nước-nác-tuk
gạo-cấu-angkor
Being a Cantonese speaker myself, I used to use Cantonese word to learn Vietnamese vocabulary; I put one next to each other and vice versa. I attempted to do the same with mandarin, it didn't work for me.
Yes I wish she had used Cantonese for the comparison. Much older than Mandarin and geographically closer to Viet Nam.
Vietnamese is a dual language. We have two words for everything....one in native and the other from Chinese. We use Chinese words like how English uses Greek and Latin for "big fancy words".
Example in Viet use say moc hai ba or 1 2 3.
Or we say nghic ni san from Chinese.
We say nouc for water but we Also say Sui.
Or dang for black but also say Hak.
Or Quan for fist/hand but also say Tay in native Viet.
The Chinese colonized my people from the han dynasty up to the song dynasty hence why 60% of Vietnamese is now Chinese while all the verbs,basic vocabulary and number,animals and things about nature n day to day life in native.
@@billcunningham9256she wouldn’t use Cantonese because she is adamant that Vietnamese is not Chinese (three exclamation points)
2:11 there is another possibility: the two languages are related in the substratum of one of these languages. There is a subtle difference compared to loanwords. Examples: Celtic words in French
hi, as a native chinese speaker, I would just like to point out that at 10:00 mark, the chinese translation used is referring to the horn as musical instrument, not the animal part. Other than that, this was still a very informative video, just like every previous videos!
keep up the good work! - a learner of vietnamese!
Cảm ơn anh for pointing that out! Is 角 the correct one?
Horn in chinese is Jiăo
@@LearnVietnameseWithAnnie yes, 角 is animal horn
It is easy to confuse the two in modern concepts, but in the dim past, certain tribes, and possibly others, would steal the horns form rams and use them in their religious ceremonies. But sho far, I can’t remember the names of all twelve of these tribes! ;-)
Yes you are right. The character is 角 , pronounced as jiao(3rd chinese tone).
Sorry for the late reply but continue to keep up the good work! Co len!
Thank you Annie. This is a very interesting topic. You provided me a lot of information. Linguistically, Vietnamese is not related to Chinese from the big difference in the list of native words. But, Cantonese (not Mandarin) speakers can learn Vietnamese easily because of the pronunciation of the loanwords and easy understanding of the sentence structure and tones. It would be interesting to know if a Khmer speaker can also learn Vietnamese easily or not.
I speak many languages. I can also find some Thai and Malay words in Vietnameses. Vietnamese has absorbed many languages including Chinese dialects into it too. The structure of the language is in fact different from Chinese. People who speak some Southern Chinese dialects can understand some of the phrases because of many borrowed words from Chinese. Just a correction of horn in Mandarin Chinese word above, it is 角‘jiao', not 喇叭 (trumpet). Fully agreed with you that it is a different language.
Thai has many words that are very similar to Viet. Malay not so much, but enough to see the correlation.
Very informative video, Annie! Thank you!
Great video. One thing that also isn't talked about enough in this space is that sometimes cognate vocabulary between Vietnamese and Chinese actually isn't because of borrowing from Chinese, rather, it's because older Chinese languages borrowed from Mon-Khmer. This was extremely common if my copy of The ABC Etymological Dictionary of Old Chinese is anything to go by (it is).
These tend to be much harder to notice than later Chinese -> Vietnamese borrowings. But sometimes, especially to someone with Phonetic theory and philological interests, might at least be noticed as being potential cognates.
While this is just interesting as a piece of trivia, it's also important because it reminds us not to take for granted and eternal, the power differentials between the societies and states which make up our modern geopolitical landscape. The Khmer Empire was once a huge power in the region, and to often we assume the cultural, political, and economic supremacy of the Chinese kingdoms and Empires, but it has not always been so, and these influences do not run only in one direction. :)
Maybe Chinese did not borrow these words directly from Mon-Khmer. I'd rather figure out that a group of ancestors of Chinese people speaks Austroasiatic languages, and they are greatly involved in the formation of Chinese people.
@@林虤 雞,象,江,橙 were all borrowed from Austroasiatic. These are not northern things. Also, the amount of existent Austroasiatic lexicon in modern Cantonese/ Wu & Minnan vocabulary is astounding if you know linguistics & Mon-Khmer languages (obviously the general popular have NO idea).
@@Jumpoable I don't think "borrow" is appropriate to describe the phenomenon. Maybe "substrate" or even "cognate" is more appropriate.
@@林虤 Hmmm... we will never truly know whether the Han up north first encountered jungle fowl from the south & borrowed the Austroasiatic word for the bird or not. 江 was the name of the big river int the south & definitely borrowed into Han Chinese. The name of the big river up north was 河... and 川 was the generic name for river/ or just a basic 水.
Horn is 角(jiao), 喇叭 (lapa) is trumpet.
Dạ cảm ơn chị ạ
great insight on history of language. Your English and Chinese are well pronounced
Your chinese pronunciations is pretty accurate. 👍
Hi Annie, great comparison! I have an inkling that Khm. ស្នែង (snaeŋ) is related rather to Vn. nanh "fang, canine tooth" (compare Bahnar sơnĕnh "tooth"). The consonant /ʂ/ in modern Vn. tends to come from *kr- in earlier stages of the language, hence Proto-Vietic *k-rəŋ for "horn"; that makes Vn. sừng and Mon ဂြၚ် (krɛ̀aŋ) "horn, tusk" likely cognates.
Once met a Chinese guy in Hanoi. He was fluent in Vietnamese after 9-12 months of self-learning via history book. He admitted Cantonese and Vietnamese contains about 20-25% similar vocabulary.
More than 25%
Vietnamese is very closely to Cantonese (Chinese) Linh Nam is the ancestor of Cantonese and Vietnamese has the article "Linh Nam nhat thong chi" that is really shows its root part of Cantonese. Over history, some Chinese broke part of China and live in Vietnam. Look at the statue of Tran Hung Dao dressed like Chinese general.
Correct me if I am wrong but this is because when vietnam was colonized by china, the chinese were speaking “middle chinese” at that time. A lot of vietnamese vocabulary came from middle chinese, so now, conservative chinese languages like cantonese have surface level similarities with vietnamese while innovative languages like mandarin don’t have much
@@wikiwebwatcher1358 vietnamese is sinicized very much like the koreans or to a lesser extent japanese.
60% is borrowed from Chinese.
喇叭 laba is horn the "sound maker", 牛角 niujiao is the "horn of the animal".
I completely agree. Although Cantonese does retain a few words that were originally from its ancient tribal Việt roots. Such as "ni" or "nei" meaning "this", similar to "này". And "仔 zai" for "boy" like "trai".
I find it fascinating.
Wow hay quá!
I think it is the other way around
trai is from *p-laːl and 仔 may just be a coincidence; but yeah, there are other examples
Cantonese roots in in MIDDLE CHINESE, not Bach Viet. Fyi for those who dont know, just because it has the word Viet/yue in its name does not mean it is vietnamese, in fact it is the ancestor of vietnamese.
Cantonese may have some loanwords from Bach Viet peoples, but its ROOTS are CHINESE
@@NoCareBearsGiven What is the root of a grafted plant?
I am a student both know cantonese and vietnamese, in fact some of the words are similar, like này for nei , nóng for nung (just mean over cooked or stick on pot) , mắt for muk( just a morpheme means eye) 。, nhiều for yiu\（a morpheme for much like 富饒for rich)
The ancestors of the Cambodians came with earlier waves that followed in the wake of the proto-Malays. The Cambodians are closely related to the Mon who settled further to the west but of whom only small pockets survive in Thailand and Burma. The Mon is a minority group of tribe people migrated from Shandong to Southwest China and spread from China to northern Burma, Thailand and northwest Vietnam. Southern Vietnam used to belong to Cambodia and was taken over by north Vietnam. It will be interesting to compare Vietnamese with Mon language, possibly a lot of similarities.
Compound words or expressions from Chinese can be detected by their different word order as Chinese is not head-first. -- I think that proto-Vietnamese must have been a fantastic language: 1. It was thoroughly head-first (that principle is now broken with Chinese compounds or entire expressions, the word order in Chinese is like that of English). 2. It had no tones, but consonant clusters at the syllables´beginnings (like related Cambodian still today) and most probably less homophones. 3. Redundance as today with syllables of Chinese or of Vietnamese (or Thai sometimes) origin for the same thing must have been unknown. 4. Those sound mergers as with "r", "d" and "gi", "s" and "x" or "tr" and "ch" were yet inexistant. Ending "ch" must have beeen pronounced linke beginning "ch". -- If we could reconstruct proto-Vietnamese I´d suggest this as a universal language. I like to read Vietnamese folk stories in original, but this language has unfortunately has become so blurred as Vietnam keeps refusing to set up a standard (no, the Hanoi accent cannot be the standard). -- Excellent features of Vietnamese are: 1. A head-first word order with the possibility to easily make up compound words. 2. Its very basic grammar. 3. The possibility to not define gender, number or time. 4. The linguistic principle to give the other one those bits missing as information and not to obligatorily speak in "entire" sentences (thus the pro-drop principle).
Actually Mandarin is quite a new language evolving in northern area with the Beijing dialect after the Qing dynasty took over. Which China call it putonghua.
Mandarin is older than the Qing dynasty.
@@NoCareBearsGiven Late Ming, give or take. Still relatively new compared to Cantonese, Min, Hakka & Wu.
false, in fact mandarin chinese has a history over 1000 year since Jin.
Do take note that Mandarin today is extremely different from middle chinese and proto chinese. Some southern dialects retained the old chinese tones and words. Chinese derived from sino-tibetan and the later actually splits to tibeto-burman language.
in hakka，neck is called goi，some say the charector is 戈。
This is not surprising. The Dong Son people were definitely Austroasiatic speakers and genetic evidence has even shown that the Dong Son people are closer related to modern day Khmer people than the Kinh!
lol don't tell me cambodian claims dongsonians are Khmer
@@trannamthangtran8002 I don't think they do but the Dong Son people are genetically closer to Khmer than the Kinh.
@@haruzanfuucha This group of people basically migrated southwards from present day south china in waves. yes they are closely related as mon-khmer people.
Plot Twist: What if it was actually the other way around? Vietnamese was more similar to Chinese (Cantonese and other Southern dialects) and simply incorporated certain grammatical / word borrowing from Khmer?
Annie, this video is very interesting and instructif. but actually, the chinese mandarin you mentioned is modern language which is used after 20th century, if you could find ancient version it would be much convinced. like 说，which is modern mandarin, but 言in ancient chinese. 孩子is 儿，脖子is颈，这is此，脚is足.....
I like this videl very much and it really helps me to understand the evolution of language
I agree. Thank you for your suggestion! I’ve learned a lot from your comment too!
@@LearnVietnameseWithAnnie Exactly, & Vietnamese sounds closer to Minnan & Cantonese (just across the border) as opposed to Mandarin, a new dialect way up north.
@@Jumpoable Cantonese and Vietnamese have 6 tones, whereas modern Mandarin has only 4 tones, which is why many native mandarin speakers have hard time picking up Cantonese. The 6 tones between the Cantonese and Vietnamese are identical, which is only true for native Northern Vietnamese speaker because "other parts" of Vietnam have missing tone(s), pronouncing different tones with the same manner.
@@Peace123-sp1ej Stop talking out of your a$$ boy. My mother tongue is Cantonese. The Hanoi Vietnamese tones do NOT map AT ALL to Cantonese tones. Any Chinese & Viet will be able to tell immediately.
This is so amazing to learn and you are so pleasant to listen to Annie. I am sure that scholars out there will find holes in your content to disprove your view. If the two languages are evolved from the same ancestors, does this mean the two peoples were related long ago? However, over thousands of years, the two peoples have completely diverged into different subspecies unrecognizable to one another. The Vietnamese language speakers are mostly Chinese in physical features, while the Khmer language speakers are brownish in complexion. In general the Vietnamese do not like people who are browner than them. Similarly, the first peoples who populated the North and South Americas were from Asia, but over thousands of years, they are no longer "Asians". Also, the first humans were in Africa, but later on their descendants have evolved to be so much different than the original ancestors.
all academia concluded vietnamese is an austroasiatic language. and looking similar doesnt make you the same ethnicity example Siberians look chinese but ae ydna N and Q, Mongolians are Ydna C3, half of Japanese is Ydna D and chinese is Ydna O3, vietnamese and Cambodian are Ydna O1 and O2 and Tibetans who share the same language family(sino-tibetan) are YDNA D like Japanese.
And Khmer empire was a Hindu kingdom who were infleunced by India(as were most south east asians in the past) while vietnam came under chinese infleunce, hence the skin color.
and native americans(pure ones are still genetically asian) you couldnt tell a eskimo from a chinese or a Navajo from a Ket people(siberian asian) and Amazonian natives look no different from Many south East Asians...90% of Native american YDNA is still Ydna Q which is the dominate asian haplogroup from Siberia. lol
Nice video. Of course, one reason that many people thought Vietnamese was related to Chinese was the tones, which map perfectly onto the tones of Middle Chinese, whereas Khmer, for example, has no tones. (This logic would also suggest that Kra-Dai (including Thai) and Hmong-Mien are related to Chinese, which is far from accepted.) In fact, there is no satisfactory explanation of exactly *how* tones diffused through these different language families of China and Southeast Asia; it is usually just stated that they did.
Thank you for your comment! I did a course in History of Vietnamese phonetics in college and there's one theory that seems to be widely accepted by linguists on the original of Vietnamese tones. We can discuss it next time!
@@LearnVietnameseWithAnnie Great! Yes, I think you're referring to Haudricourt 1954. That paper indeed accounts for the origins of tones in Vietnamese (and other languages of the region), but it does not explain how tonal systems diffused between separate families, which is a fascinating mystery to this day.
11. Horn should translate to 角 jiǎo in Chinese (yes it's a homophone with 脚 foot). 喇叭 lǎba is the musical instrument horn.
Actually u should compare with older chinese languages cantonese, hokkien or hakka
Is there a comparison with Cham language? would be interesting to know. I guess Vietnamese language builds on the foundation of Austroasiatic language and later took a great deal of loan words from cantonese and hokkien/teochew, resulting in today's form. Do take note that middle chinese and proto chinese sounds extremely different from today's standard mandarin. Chinese language itself derived from Sino-Tibetan.
Cham would be similar to jarai and rhade language. They would be in the Austronesian group.
Love this. very interesting!
I remember talking to this khmer woman once and I joked with her and said "Kat ko" she looked at me and said why you wanna cut my neck. I just laughed and said how do you know what that means. She said you speaking khmer. I said no, I'm speaking Bahnar. She said well we say the same thing. That was my first exposure to khmer. Then I thought, could the languages have a genetic lineage?
Sure, as they belong to the Austroasiatic language family.
My language German belongs to the Indoeuropean family. The one Vietnamese expression I could memorize instantly was "cắt cụt", to cut short. "Cắt" has the same pronunciation as English "cut" and "cụt" reminds me of German "kurz" (in older German it was "kurt", in French today it still is "court(e)") with the deep tone indicating a lost "r" the way first generation Vietnamese speak German. Could this be by chance? I think so.
What cannot be by chance are the words "mẹ" for mother (in Sanskrit something like "matar") and "bố" for father (in Sanskrit something like ("patar"). These must be old words having survived the trek out of Africa about 70,000 years ago.
Other words that seem to have striking similarities are animal names that imitate the sounds these animals make like "bò" for the ox (Latin bovus) or "quạ" for the raven (in German "Rabe", pronounced "rah-ba"). Maybe that way the Vietnamese and Chinese words for cat are almost equal.
@@ruedigernassauer Pretty much every language has m- for mother & p- for father (also t/d- for daddy). Chinese & Viet for cat is obviously onomatopeia, basically how a cat sounds. Miaaaaao Meeeowww
@@Jumpoable No, in Ewondo (central Cameroon) it is Nyanga and Sanga. That was said to me there.
@@Jumpoable Furthermore, Ididn't just write about cat (yes, mèo in Vietnamese), but also about cut.
@@rudigernassauer6075 "No" what? I wrote "pretty much every language" not ALL languages. & you don't have to go all the way to central Cameroon for examples. Asia already has haha/okaasan for mother & chichi/otousan for father in Japanese.
Another question, how would you say "Welcome home". Would it be translated exactly as welcome home or be an equivalent more or less.
Chào mừng về nhà. But it is better if you say: Mừng +anh/chị/mẹ/con trở về (nhà). For example: mừng con trở về nhà.
Thank you for making informative videos!
Those words aren't even on the Swadesh list. They are just similar words in Vietnamese and Kmer. You can do the same with Vietnamese and French: phô mai-frommage, xà bông-savon, in English: Mô-bô phôn- mobile phone, Ti-vi - T.V., and Chinese: bạn - 伴 bàn, minh - 明 míng. Chinese and Vietnamese usually aren't considered related but it doesn't change the fact that 30-60% of Vietnamese words (depending on the dialect and context) are of Chinese origin.
Chinese and Vietnamese are not related languages, even like half of words in a Vietnamese dictionary are of Chinese origin. The core vocabulary of Vietnamese is mostly Austro-Asiatic, making it a somewhat distant cousin from Khmer, the same way that Hindi and English are cousins. The grammar of Vietnamese is also noticeably closer to that of Cambodian than to Chinese.
@@hnguyen5656 I didn't say that Chinese and Vietnamese are related, they're not. I said that the Vietnamese language contains a lot of Chinese vocabulary. Furthermore, Chinese was the language of aristocrats and government for many years in Vietnam and even the Vietnamese language was written in Chữ Nôm, before finally changing to Chữ Quốc ngữ under French colonization. Hindi and English are not at all related, India was a colony of England for almost a 100 years so Hindi speakers have adopted English words and have kept English as an integral element of education in India.
@@hnguyen5656 mandarin is not related to Vietnamese ! the Vietnamese language influence come from Cantonese language ! don’t get it mix up. the viet language use Cantonese word
@@ghostland8646 Dont be ignorant.
Cantonese descends from Middle Chinese, just like Mandarin, so Vietnamese is not related to Cantonese.
Cantonese appears to have more in common with Cantonese because they both preserve ending consonants better than Mandarin. BUT THESE ARE JUST LOANWORDS IN VIETNAMESE. These loanwords are based on Annamese pronoucation from Middle Chinese, not Cantonese
Vietnamese also borrowed a lot from Old Chinese, so the closest CHINESE LANGUAGE to vietnamese is HAINANESE
@@NoCareBearsGiven Vietnam and canto both got from the old tang dynasty Middle Chinese and still retain a lot of word together similar about 50% whereas mandarin does not. Mandarin doesn’t even sound anything like Cantonese. no one mix up mandarin with canto but people do with viet and canto a lot … mandarin have so many weird sound when talking like barking whereas canto and viet is more soulful and they both have 6 tones that you can easily get mix up. plus canto people call Cantonese as ‘粤语’ which translate to viet. Guangdong was the land of living viet in ancient time
Does the Vietnamese language have separate words for horn and antler?
Yes. Horn is sừng, antler is gạc (+ antlers' name), but Vietnamese also call sừng + the antlers' name.
😂you speak mandarin really well!
Many Vietnamese people can speak madarin well
I think Vietnamese and Cantonese are more closely.Morever Cantonese china and Vietnam north is directly connected borders, migration sure occurs in the early days.
cantonese area of china was vietnamese lands in the past look up Nanyue(Namviet) kingdom
@@teovu5557 Zhao Tuo or Triệu Đà is a Qin general himself. Carving out his own territory, but he was more than happy to assimilate into the already present Âu Lạc albeit Dong Son culture and they are more than happy to acknowledge him as the new leader.
Chào Annie! I highly recommend reading Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology by Ayn Rand. It really helps with looking at languages philosophically and it’s super cool!
Related or not, I was amazed by how fast Vietnamese can learn Chinese. No other nation come close.
Huh? The Japanese literally still writing in Chinese characters.
they're talking about speaking the language. Japanese struggle with it more than Vietnamese do
A large population in Vietnam is Chinese and many have been exposed to Chinese. Not to mention, more than 40% of their word were borrowed words and sounded very similar
Viet Nam has tones, Japan does not
She speaks perfect Mandarin, better than many Chinese who struggle to speak properly.
There are many criticism's of Swadesh's theory. Mainly, it is difficult to come up with a culturally unbiased list. His list, derived from a western perspective to segment western languages may or may not be the best list to segment the languages of Asia. Even the premise of separating languages with a clear bright line is a little odd. If you co-exist for thousands of years together, of course some of your words will be shared amongst your neighbors. Languages are just a mixture of the thousands of years of development amongst people of a region.
Then most funny thing to me is that the Chinese speaking-shou seemingly also exist in Vietnamese as shua but it’s to hell yes like a dog lol
5:41 The verb "đốt" means "to kindle", not "to burn".
it is also used for burn depending on how it is used in a sentence.....every vietnamese knows that how come you dont?
@@teovu5557 Because I am German. I like to read Vietnamese folk stories. So there is a third meaning of that syllable, as a noun it means limb, as a verb it means to kindle (=thắp) and also to burn. That wasn´t in my Vietnamese dictionary, thank you!
@@ruedigernassauer You're telling Vietnamese people how our language works? lol Dot is to Burn and also used to set a light/fire, cháy is burnt while kindle is nhóm.
Native speakers trumps foreigner learner.
@@teovu5557 Thank you so much! No, I certainly don´t. I have got a German-Vietnamese dictionary from the year 1997 from NXB Bách Việt which seems to have more than that wrong. For instance for "ill" they write instead of "bệnh" "bịnh" which is deemed outdated. And in rare times I have to search words with the Google translator as they are not in my thick dictionary. But "nhóm" as in "nhóm lửa" is inside it.
@@ruedigernassauer Per your: The verb "đốt" means "to kindle", not "to burn". They both can be correct depending on how it is used in a sentence. "to kindle" is used for emotion and the other one is used for burning something. For example, to use as "to kindle": "Những câu nói của phụ nữ sẽ đốt cháy trái tim đàn ông." And to use as "to burn": "Đốt củi nấu ăn". As far as "bịnh" vs "bệnh", "bịnh" is more of a local dialect in pronunciation. People in Southern Vietnam and parts of Central Vietnam pronounce "bệnh" as "bịnh". By the way, the word "bệnh" is "từ Hán-Việt" and is borrowed from Chinese, "病". It is OK to use Google Translate, but sometime the true meaning of word or words gets lost in the translation. Here is an online ( www.tudienducviet.de ) Vietnamese-German and German-Vietnamese dictionary. Hope it is complete enough to be an addition or supplement to your 1997 NXB Bách Việt. Have fun.
wow ,you can speak Mandarin 🥰,yes the Vietnamese is close with Khmer ,but they are still two different nationalities ,because Vietnamese originated from Chinese&Khmer mixed ?
Are you Du Miên Vietnamese reporter daughter? He said on a Vietnamese tv channel,
Vietnamese language not from Chinese nouns
Thx for the video. Do you have comparison with Cantonese?
I'm as an European foreigner who speaks Mandarin, would say that it's a bit incorrect to compare.
First modern Chinese is a new language from Old Chinese. So, now they use more 2-3 character words instead of one character previously.
Second is that true the history of Chinese languages pronunciation always changed.
And finally as a common knowledge modern Chinese is originally from North provinces of China and have nothing rated to South.
Plus don't forget the big impact of French colonization as well.
I am a Mandarin speaker in China .I can understand Cantonese Shanghainese and much of the Hokkien Hakka ...believed it or not 😊.Vietnamese sounds more Hainanese to me ,Vietnam had belonged to China over 1000 years .I guess the official language in Vietnam was Cantonese ,yes it should be the standard Cantonese .but the locals spoke more close to Hainanese or Hokkien (也就是越南人是闽人沿着海岸南下和当地人通婚衍生成了新的民族，向山里去的民族因为闽人的血统变低，就成了另一个民族。闽人南下的路线是在潮州成了潮汕话，再向南就成了雷州话，沿着海南岛和当地民族通婚成了海南话，沿着越南海岸和那里的民族有可能苗族或者壮族通婚成了京族或越南族了，他们到台湾的时候因为离大陆太近，闽人的比例太高，汉族主体性没有变，在海南岛要看具体的地方，在越南沿岸估计远离大陆，闽人的比例和当地人对半了。否则越南那么狭长，南北的话竟然可以互通，说明就是闽人过去在狭长的海岸边形成的血统一致的新民族了。否则如果只是当地的各少数民族聚居应该南北根本无法通话的，而且越南中部的通话率最低，说明那里闽人血统的比例最低，越过中部越南南北两边反而能通话。当然只是我的猜测。越南人用了一千年的汉字，而且还有什么科举制度，那时候越南的汉字肯定都是标准粤语发音，不可能越过岭南去中原找什么正音。越南人使用了一千年的粤语官话，他们的话里肯定有粤语的痕迹，但是主体民族应该是闽人的血统为主。看他们拼命地说和中国无关，殖民地都是这样，用各种办法把前面的历史洗干净，不仅是越南，韩国也一样，换一个主，就把前任洗一遍，最好的办法就是洗脑，灌输仇恨，简单有效。)
In Chinese history and old book, Nobody ever assume d or stated Vietnamese language relating to Chinese. However, they believe Vietnamese borrowing a lot of Chinese terminologies and words up to 70% in formal and informal speeches.
Sừng is not 喇叭, it's 角, another point you should use Cantonese in the Southern Hu China rather than Mandarin from the Northern China, geographically too far away to make a connection. For example Neck--> cổ is very close to Cantonese 頸.
Related to Cantonese Chinese, especially intellectual words - most likely loan words rather than common ancestry.
No, Vietnamese is belong to Mon-Khmer, Cantonese is belong to Sino-Tibetan. Both is have some of the same borrowed words from China.
@@thichtrongcayvietnam , no I disagree. Those loanwords came directly from China - words like “independence”, “politics” etc. Plus Vietnamese was written using Chinese characters, and that would lend very well to loan words coming directly from China. Vietnam was a vassal state to China and communicated directly with the Chinese imperial system.
@@richiesd1 lol. So you didn't anything about our Vietnamese language and country. Do you think you know our language than Vietnamese people and international language researchers? Vietnamese borrowed many Chinese words (about 25-35%) but Vietnamese is Mon-Khmer language system, NOT belong to Sino-Tibetian. On the contrary, China also maybe borrowed old Viet language. Vietnam used Latin character ago over 400 years (and used ever Nôm character based on Sino character before). Vietnam and MANY countries were vassale countries to China but be separate kingdoms. And now, Vietnam is a independent country, not be a vassal country to China, France or US. Do you know how many times Vietnam deafeated China? MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES and China was kicked out. Chinese soldiers' corpse was buried in the mass as mounds (13 mounds) in Ha Noi, you can go and see them nowadays (Đống Đa mound). Even France and US both are defeated countries. And you, you are only a bad kid and need to learn more.
@@thichtrongcayvietnam , the base of the language has nothing to do with loan words. Vietnamese has many loan words from France and the English speak world also. That does not obviate the mon-khmer origins.
No, Vietnam has not used the Latin alphabet for 400 years -- only about 100 years, since 1919 when Vietnam abandoned the Chinese based Imperial Examination system.
This has nothing to do with politics, but the history of the language. Sure, Vietnamese is of mon-khmer origins with many loan words from Chinese.
@@richiesd1 lol. But you said it is related to Cantonese while Vietnamese is not related to Cantonese. Portuguese and French Misionaries created and used Latin-Vietnamese alphabet before 1651. Vietnamese-Portuguese-Latin Dict was published in 1651. That proved Latin character created and used in Vietnam over 371 years, I meant over 300 years or about 400 years (sorry I was wrong at typing). Then Latin-Vietnamese character was used popularly in the mid 19th century (over 150 years). Because you said words related to politic and history, so I recalled a little about Vietnam-Sino wars. On the contrary, I sure Chinese also borrowed many old Viet words because the Southern China was ever land of 100 old Viet races' group. Total loan words in Vietnamese from languages (China, French, English, v.v.) is about 25.3-40% by reseachers. I can sure the loan words ratio in Vietnamese under 50%.
There is a much closer comparison to Vietnamese and Cantonese, not necessarily Mandarin
Neither are Sumerian or Akkadian related to each other. But it did not cause any problem for cuneiform to spread in ancient Mesopotamia
I heard that Chinese languages themselves share an Austro-Asiatic substratum or origin at a proportion of about 25 percent (of course words of Sino-Tibetan origin take up more than 40 percent). As Vietnamese is classified as a kind of Austro-Asiatic language, maybe there really exist many cognates between Viet and Trung, not simply borrowed from each other.
Southern Chinese people such as Cantonese maybe are cognated from Austronesian. Many old Chinese words borrowed from Austronesian.
It is clear that you have done a lot of work and research, thanks for that. However, one can ask quite a few questions about your research and certainly about your result. First of all, the fact that Vietnamese is counted among the Austroasiatic languages has been known for a long time, so you're absolutely right. However the problem is initially that your statement that Vietnamese is not related to Chinese is completely unclear. What do you actually mean?
That there are no originally Chinese words in Vietnamese? Do you mean the general assumption that about 50% to 80% of Vietnamese has a Chinese language origin, that assumption is incorrect? That in fact Sino-Vietnamese doesn't exist?
Of course, it could be that all those people have been wrong for centuries. But the question in the first instance is whether your research is actually good.
Others have already pointed out that comparing it with Mandarin Chinese is pointless because the influence comes from Han Chinese from 2000 years ago.
There is another aspect to this, which is that you are comparing with modern Vietnamese, but to know the real meaning and origin of the Vietnamese words, you have to go back to Chu Nom. For the current writing is only a phonological representation of what the words really meant.
Finally, the Morris Swadesh list is extremely limited, you even use the mini version of 100 words and not the 250. But even with 250 it's a nice list that can give you an indication, but that's it well. In everyday life, even less literate people still use about 20,000 words. It's like a poll, it gives an indication, but you can also be completely wrong.
Such a comparative study requires considerable experience in this field, otherwise you are just comparing apples with pears and you can make a tasty compote with that, but that's about it.
The big problem in this case is that you draws conclusions, namely that Vietnamese is not related to Chinese. While anyone can easily determine that the few hundred years that the French were here left behind quite a bit of language, including the world famous Banh My.
The idea that the more than a thousand years of occupation by the Chinese, making their script and language mandatory for all written and official documents, would not have affected the current Vietnamese language .. seems quite unlikely to me.
But otherwise it's always interesting when people do research and it's also important to point out to people that Vietnamese is an Austroasiatic language.
By the way...didn't that language group have a relationship with Taiwan several thousands of years ago?
Annie thông minh nhắt.
Xin chào Annie, giời lắm!
Did the French change the written language to what it is today? Before that it was similar to Chinese.
That’s basically correct!
The Vietnamese Latin alphabet was invented 200 years before the French invaded Vietnam. They just signed it into laws
No, Portuguese and French missionaries created Vietnamese alphabet based on Latin's to record Vietnamese. Before we used Nôm character based on Chinese character.
The teaching of Chinese characters was discontinued in 1917 in Vietnam. Do you still think they are 'totally' different?
Vietnamese used to have consonant clusters, not unlike Khmer and other austroasiatic languages, but we dropped them over time (this is partly due to Chinese influence)
Let me tell you this. Both Old Chinese and Vietnamese used to have consonant clusters but we gradually got rid of them. Search for Old Chinese language and you’ll be surprised
@@MinhNguyen-ff6xf A meme on the Chinese Internet is the pronunciation of "隰有长楚" in Old Chinese haha.
She used Mandarin to compare Vietnamese and Chinese, and there’re obviously not many similarities between these two. However, if you search for the Old Chinese and Middle Chinese languages you’ll find that the so-called “Native Vietnamese” or “Pure Vietnamese” contains a great deal of Old Han Chinese vocabulary.
Đá
Xe
Sách
Sông
Etc.
These words are considered Native Vietnamese and indicating natural objects, but they are actually Old Chinese words from Han dynasty, or even older.
The Sino-Vietnamese language was introduced to “Tinh Hai Quan prefecture” (Vietnam) in the Tang Dynasty using Chang An dialect by Chinese colonists
Mandarin is not related to Vietnamese. She should have use Cantonese to compare viet
@@ghostland8646 Cantonese is not related to vietnamese either....
Cantonese and Vietnamese just have more similar sounding vocabulary because cantonese preserves ending consonants better than mandarin
The real Chinese langauge that is closest to Vietnamese in terms of loanwords vocabulary is Hainanese.
@@NoCareBearsGiven look up this word in Cantonese. 大学 and go look it up in Vietnamese ….. neither does mandarin nor hainanese pronounce the same as is viet or canto. plus canto isn’t anything like Mandarin Chinese either so what’s your point ? 2 completely different language but in speaking table and similar vocab. Canto and viet is the closest of all language
Old Han Chinese (Southern China) can be also called Old Viet/Yue language because Southern China had ever been land of 100 Viet races called 百越 Bách Việt. So using words of old Viet people (from Bách Việt 百越 ) is true. Cantonese people is also called 越人 - Việt Nhân (người Việt), Cantonese language is also called Việt Ngữ 越語/粵語.
@@thichtrongcayvietnam this is correct. guangdong and việt are mutually related and are identical in almost everything include culture.
百越 = baak jyut = bách việt. 越人 = jyut jan = việt nhân. 粵語 jyut jyu = việt ngữ.
Wow, same script does not mean a same languae, but differently spoken & meaning.
Vậy thì người làm việc tại cửa khẩu Mộc Bài được nói chuyện với người khmer? 😅
Có nhiều người việt ai nói tiếng việt ở nới đó khong chị ạ?
Nhiều người nghĩ là tiếng Việt thuộc nhóm Môn-Khmer nghĩa là người Việt và người Khmer có thể hiểu nhau. Chuyện này là không thể. Ngay cả các thổ ngữ phương ngữ của cùng một thứ tiếng đã không thể hiểu nhau rồi nói chi đến hai thứ tiếng khác nhau
@@MinhNguyen-ff6xf Vậy thì đây là cuộc sống khó lắm.
@@MinhNguyen-ff6xf Chính xác. t.v. Tiếng Anh và tiếng Hindi (Ấn Độ) là hai tiếng ngữ thuộc cùng nhóm Ấn-Âu, mặc dù hai tiếng đó cũng rất là khác biệt, không hiểu nhau, và mặc dù mặt tướng người Anh và người Ấn Độ rất khác nhau.
What the hell? so surprisingly, Vietnamese ancestry bloodlines are form Sinosphereric and Chinese has hugely influenced to North VN PPL, right? one of their ethnicity: language should pronouce closely like Chinese, isn't it? In fact, Vietnam & Cambodia are on same geopolitic...confused now!!!
We all gotta get a DNA test
this swaddish lists not making sense to me. If i use it to compare Wu dialect (shanghainese) to Mandarin chinese, most of the sounds are different, but from only this, I dont agree it means Wu is not chinese.
Vietnamese is difference ..vietnamese is smarter..
This comment is difference.
Kinh (Viet)- Vietnamese people also have last name such as Hoang, Ly, Chau, Chu, Tran, Le, Bui… don’t call us Chinese pls 💀
Vietnamese is Kinh, but integration of cultures and marriages lead to adoption of chinese sounding surnames. Much like the koreans. Japanese did not adopt chinese names, but do bears some chinese derived surnames. Im not able to translate all the surnames just a few... Ly - Lee - Li = 李 ,
Chu ([tɕū] or Châu ([tɕə̄w]) is a Vietnamese surname. It is transliterated as Zhou (for Chu) and Zhu (for Châu) in Chinese, and Ju in Korean.
Tran - Chan - Chen - Tan = 陈 / 陳.
Lê is a common Vietnamese surname (third most common), written 黎 in Chữ Hán. Le is the Pinyin romanization of the Chinese surname (written 乐 in Simplified Chinese characters and 樂 in Traditional Chinese characters); it is Lok in Cantonese. Lê or Le in Minnan.
Bùi (Chữ Hán: 裴) is a common Vietnamese surname, ranked 9th among the most common surnames in Vietnam. The surname Pei (裴) in Chinese and Bae (배) in Korean share the same origin with it.
Lam - Lum - Lim - Lin = 林. Lin ([lǐn]; Chinese: 林; pinyin: Lín) is the Mandarin romanization of the Chinese surname written 林. It is also used in Taiwan, Japan, Korea, Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, Myanmar, Vietnam, Thailand and Cambodia.
Among Taiwanese and Chinese families from abroad, it is sometimes pronounced and spelled as Lim because many Chinese descendants are part of the Southern Min diaspora that speak Min Nan, Hokkien or Teochew. In Cantonese-speaking regions such as Hong Kong and Macau it is spelled as Lam or Lum.
In Japan, the character 林 is also used but goes by the pronunciation Hayashi, which is the 19th most common surname in Japan.
Bái is the pinyin of the surname 白, meaning the colour white. Mandarin: Bái, Pai
Taiwan: Pai
Cantonese (Hong Kong and Macao): Baak6, Pak
Min Nan (Hokkien (Fujian)/Teochew): Pe̍h, Pe̍k, Peh
Vietnamese: Bạch (do note that due to different spellings and pronounciation, Bạch sounds similar to Pak, Baak6, Park.
Korean: Paik, Baik, Baek, Baeg, Park? Pak? (백) based on the same Chinese letter 白
Japanese: Bekku, Haku, Hyaku, Byaku
The Vietnamese name "Hoàng" (黄 in Chinese characters) is derived from the Chinese surname "Huang." In Chinese, "Huang" means "yellow" or "gold." Similarly to the surname "Huỳnh," "Hoàng" can be associated with the color yellow or the precious metal gold.
Jin - Kym - Kim - Gim - Ghim - Gyim - Kam = 金 (metal/Gold).
Zhang - Teo = 张.
Ho - Hu = 胡
im juss scared of disappears stuffs
Australian accents
Interesting. Khmer language is non tonal language, while Vietnamese is tonal language. Physical feature Vietnamese people (Kinh etnicity), especially Northern Vietnam looks like Han Chinese. While Khmer people skin is a bit darker, looks like Champa/Malay People. (No offense)
These are all due to changes over time. Vietnamese and Khmer were last the same language 6,000 years ago, and as such a lot of time has been left for physical changes and linguistic influences
Languages can gain or lose tonality over time. As for ethnic appearance, very dissimilar looking people can speak related languages. Hindi is related to Swedish and English, for example.
Tones are something that can develop in languages over time. Chinese was not tonal at the beginning either. The Vietic languages are indigenous to northern Vietnam and the original speakers of it were very closely related to Khmers, closer related to Khmers than to the modern Kinh even. This is because Austroasiatic is the oldest major language family of Southeast Asia. Kinh people are genetically most closely related to Kra-Dai people, who moved into northern Vietnam from far southern China during the Dong Son period. There's some controversy over how a people like the Kinh who are mostly of Kra-Dai descent ended up speaking an Austroasiatic language.
One hypothesis is that the Chinese settlers used to speak a language called "Annamese Chinese" in Vietnam but gradually switched to using the Austroasiatic Proto-Vietnamese language (so there is a Sinitic substrate in Vietnamese). Since the Chinese formed the elite class, the rest of the population in northern Vietnam ended up following suit. The Kinh people do have indigenous Austroasiatic ancestry but they seem to have more Chinese-related ancestry due to centuries of Chinese migration into the area. The Kinh are actually more genetically "northern-shifted" than even some Kra-Dai ethnic groups in southern China like the Zhuang who are closely related to the Kinh and are geographically more northern. This implies that the Kinh were more greatly impacted by Chinese genetic admixture than the Zhuang.
I was taught that vernacular Vietnamese is around 30% Cantonese. But Cantonese and Vietnamese were very mixed for many centuries, both linguistically and people and culture. If you travel from north Vietnam to Guangdong (as I've done) you notice almost no difference between the two locations and people. I think the whole north Vietnam, Guangdong, and Guangxi districts were pretty much one large cultural melting pot that took 1000s of years for them to settle into what we have today. For me Guangdong and north Vietnam are sister and sister siblings.
South Vietnam has Cantonese rythm, North has Zhuang, Hmong rythm. Central has Thai rythm and the most flexible.
Vietnamese language uses lots of the words from Chinese characters ,not only nouns but also verbs, for example Đánh = beat = 打（da3），Trồng =farming= 种（zhong4）,of couse you even could find most Vietnames place name,road name and human name are from chinese charcters，it's okay you may dont like China , but even Japanese and Korean language are affacted by Chinese language, that's not mean something Chinese people have to be proud of but the fact of the history, bouth Japan and South Korea are wonderful country. Only a little advise
Ok if you said Vietnamese not related to Chinese,Vietnamese used 80% of Chinese noun,
For example eight words Vietnamese have too used Chinese ( Hán).that are : EAST ,WEST ,SOUTH,
NORTH,and SPRING,SUMMER,FALL ,winter.
(Xuân,HẠ,THU,ĐÔNG và ĐÔNG TÂY NAM BẮC,)
Those words are translated from Chinese , Vietnamese called chử Hán,
Do you have any Vietnamese replace for
those words,
Trẻ nít sinh sau đẻ muộn không biết gì.
vietnamese is a dual language buddy. we have two words for everything etc Shan for mountain(chinese) and Nui(vietnamese for mountain) nouc for water(vietnamese) and Sui(chinese for water) we count in vietnamese moc hi ba bon nam but we also use chinese numbers as numerals etc or Phi Trun(spelled wrong which comes from chinese Fei flying and vessel) but we also use native vietnamese san bay(bay means to fly) etc
@@teovu5557 maybe it's same to Korean or Japanese ,they have a lot of Chinese pronunciation yet they have their own pronunciation ,like mountain as San or Yama...
@@malorybertie8046 they don't have Chinese pronunciations these languages borrowed whole words from Chinese like how English borrowed words from Greek and Latin.
I feel sorry for Cambodia, they have such big rivals
On each side of the boarder)
you can’t compare Vietnamese to mandarin. Go compare it with Cantonese and you see. Vietnamese was influence by Middle Chinese and Cantonese happen to be the closest so they are similar and not mandarin ! you need to do research before putting out misinformation. Vietnamese relationship with canto is much more than Khmer language
Not exactly. Cantonese belongs to Chinese in terms of Swadesh list. Those words that may sounds similar in Vietnamese and Cantonese are generally Sino-Vietic words. However, even for the Sino-Vietic words, we cannot come to a conclusion that "Vietnamese sounds more similar to Cantonese that Mandarin". For example, "high", are nearly identical in Vietnamese and Mandarin "gao/cao", except for a little difference in terms of the movement time of pronunciation. However, in Cantonese, "high" is pronounced like "gou/câu". More apparent examples such as "flower" (hua/hoa vs. faa), "river" (jiang/giang[similar to iang in Southern Vietnamese and zang in Northern Vietnamese] vs. gong), “mate” （bàn/bạn vs. bun）, and many other words are actually more similar between Mandarin and Vietnamese.
@@林虤 incorrect. your example is just nitpicking word for word but I learn Cantonese for year as a Vietnamese so I am aware that they are more similar. Cantonese is closer to ancient Han and spoken during the Middle Chinese. Viet loan word is from that era period of time so they will resemble more on a lot of thing much more than mandarin. here are some example.
發 phát/ faat vs fa.
大 đại / daai vs da
福 phúc / fuk vs fu
林 lâm / lam vs lin
學 học / hok vs xue
一 nhất/ jat vs yi
人 nhân/ jan vs ren
險 hiểm/ him vs xian
國 quốc/ gwok vs guo
特 đặc / dak vs te
there are so many more that are like this and I could go on forever. the vocab between mandarin and Vietnamese are actually very limited when you realize that most of the word that are similar usually never use in common daily life like 海港 Hải cảng = hai gang. obviously this would be close to mandarin grammar compare to Cantonese ( hoi gong ) but word like this rarely ever used anyway. it’s almost irrelevant.
a couple that I know in mandarin are close that could be more useful such as :
漢 =( Hán) ( Hàn ) this would be more similar to mandarin compare to canto ( Hon ).
海 = hải - hǎi - ( hoi )
安 an - ān - ( on. )
the wide varieties here are extremely limited. but that’s only a couple and not a lot but mandarin - canto / viet culturally are not related on anything in the end. Different language. It’s just that Cantonese tend to flip the sound the opposite of mandarin basically for everything like 愛 ai would turn to ( oi ) in Cantonese. so the result mixed in similarities since Cantonese also perverse the ending consonant better than mandarin so you will more often see that viet word will feel much closer because canto vocab grammar tend to flip the opposite of mandarin like 音 in mandarin would be ‘ yin ‘ and canto flip it to ‘ jam ‘ totally different.
@@ghostland8646 You mean preserve the ending consonant in Cantonese...?
Putonghua definitely perversed the consonant endings of Middle Chinese LOL.
Vietnamese is related to Chinese. There are many same words in both languages.
Miễn phí
Vietnamese borrowed lots of Chinese words. Especially those relating to Science. If you take the more simple words, then you will understand why they put Khmer and Viet in the Austroasiatic group.
@@dud719 they borrowed all from China man . Even customs and system . Vietnam is a second China.
@@paoloc3318 yes but the linguistic parents of viet were closer to Soth East Asian. I am not talking about culture because that can change over time but I am talking about language.
Half of a Vietnamese dictionary is of words of Chinese origin, but the genetic classification shows that the languages are unrelated. We can see that in the big differences in basic vocabulary and grammar. Borrowing lots of vocabulary, customs, etc. does not change the genetic classification of a language.
But Vietnam only expanded into the what is now southern Vietnam around the 15th century where they encountered the Cham and Khmer peoples. That would mean the Nam Viet people would have had no relationship with Cham and Khmer for most of its existence. How could Khmer influence the development of the Viet language then?
Original Vietnamese Vietic was a synthetic polysyllabic nontonal language
Hi!JP leot6 si1 ☕Lawyer. dak6 bit6 ☕JP ngoi6 ☕sit. Hi can you review the following words in Tiéng Guang? thanks for the lesson!