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Leaving the Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement | Theocast
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- Опубликовано: 15 авг 2024
- Growing up and serving in the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement led me to believe things about the Bible and theology that were not consistent with the scriptures. Mainly, the large emphasis on one's own ability to keep or maintain their salvation by their piety, also known as, their own righteousness. This movement motivates those within it with fear and dread, rather than security and rest in the saving work of Christ. The pietism of this movement constricts the believer from confessing and repenting of their sin in fear of the reaction of others, seeing them as "unholy." Instead, choosing to wear a mask, ignoring the sin and repressing repentance. This is my story of how my eyes were opened to the theology of grace and escaping the grasp of pietism.
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I grew up on the fringes of the IFB movement, but praise God my father, who was a preacher, fought against that whole legalistic system. So even when I attended a Christian school which leaned that way, I had the biblical grounding to understand that school rules were just school rules, not Bible doctrine. When we had IFB "evangelists" in to speak, I just ignored them when they got on their favorite "sin" that was extra-biblical. My father taught me to think biblically and make decisions according to biblical principles.
Praise the Lord Brother. I was raised in the charismatic and the same thing was spouted in the churches I ran in. Don't watch/listen/do etc. I grew up bitter and confused especially after seeing people I looked up to have moral failures in the church. I got to a point that I got fed up with it and went atheist for a spell. A brother that left the church I was going to reached out to me and shared the Gospel with me through great teachers in the reformed theology camp and it blew my mind. Thank God He is faithful even though we are not.
Praise the Lord for delivering you out of that mess. He delivered me out of the IFB and I am so thankful. Yes, God is faithful always.
You're a clavinist?
@@wesfields9322 I would say no as I'm not clear on what all makes a Calvinist.
All of the charismatics that I know seem to be the opposite of "no, no, no..." They are all driven purely by emotional experiences, and they seem to have little spiritual discernment on worldly things.
Regardless, praise God that you (Holy Spirit's help of course) recognized your situation and were able to instead search for sound doctrine.
@@elmariachi451 reformers tend to not trust and preach on the biblical gospel
As a pastor myself, who also came out of the IFB, I can greatly relate to this. Thank you for posting this brother. It was a great encouragment for me to watch this.
The youtube algorithm gets it right sometimes. 🙂
Im no pastor, but I had a similar experience with growing up in the ifb culture and have talked with many people who had the same questions about bible passages that dont line up with their teaching and soul winning ministeries that get large numbers of professions but almost no faithful Christians as a result. It's encouraging to hear this articulated so well here.
I was IFB , did youth summer camps at Jack Hyles church 1971-72, many friends went to Hyles Anderson college. I learned sin very well at them churches, as long as we had our haircut high and tight and we came to be counted. By 87 I gave up. My mom was very involved but after she died I had a box of tapes from John MacArthur from 82. Come 2018 I started listening to them. Now I am reformed. I was always asking about things in the bible and was told that when God was ready I would make me understand. Now that I am an old man I talk to friends from back then Only 1 of us has remained IFB. Sex and drugs were rampant in that church. Everybody was having affairs. IFB is also a numbers game. No time for growth for new christians, take a hand full of tracts and go to the park to fill the bus routes. Stay strong and enjoy God's blessing you are living.
Thanks, Jon, for sharing your testimony. It's really no different from being in the charismatic movement. We had the same demands and burdens put on us, eventually leading to disappointment and disillusionment. Thanks to God for setting us free out of it all!
I'm a dependent fundamental Baptist, I depend on the grace of God to get me through each day. As for the ifb I don't see it as a "movement" at all. This isn't a come and go fad but a spiritual way of life. For those of you that believe that trying to live the Bible is legalism you probably need to review the meaning. The experience I've had is that some of the members of ifb churches seem to be shy about the friendships they cultivate. Legalism is a system of works based outcomes. Ifb isn't that at all. Maybe folk need to mow their grass before a harsh comment on someone else's yard. You do you and I do me and we can both be happy. God bless
We spent 18 months in an IFB... too many things to mention and terrifying is an understatement.
I looked after some kids who ran from that
To them it seemed to me the bible was all about the Christian and their performance
Instead the bible is all about Jesus and his performance at Calvary
It seems they have no idea of the sovereignty of God
And so very much more
@@mollymuch2808 Yes exactly. It was all about their "testimony" A pastor who covered up his families sins under his roof, a daughter sleeping with a deacons grandson for months and denying covering up and lying. Everyone sins but transparency was not allowed it was a fake cover up. Then He knew God's will for others lives, Or what his "wife" wanted him to do. He was not a Shepard. He was not a real pastor he was a manipulator now he runs a Missions tour group taking money from people all over the US togo to Africa. To be able to heal and forgive has been a journey but our Lord is Sovereign and he has used that for good in our family in so so many ways, Praise God and pray for those deceived under wolves.
@@mollymuch2808 Sounds about right... its a very sad system that creates extreme judgmental attitudes with a cult like group settings. There are so many levels of control and everything he said about KJV is spot on.
I think the issue is one of conflating habit and holiness. IFB took a good desire: the wish to inculcate godly habits into disciples. And they turned it into a spirituality test.
We are creatures who need routine. God made us this way. Godly habits are to be lauded. But they are not "requirements" to be saved, or even holy living.
The flip side is, broader Evangelicalism is so afraid of appearing legalistic that we *don't* encourage spiritual disciplines. We don't talk about what it takes to cultivate a prayer life, or deep Bible reading, or regular repentance of the sins besetting us. And so we have a shallow Christendom that can't stand when the storms come.
We need the disciplines. But we also need the grace not to judge our, or others, spirituality by how well we keep them.
Regular repentance of sins is not a Biblical doctrine.
It’s taught by people today, but neither Jesus nor His disciples taught for us to promise God that we will never sin again!
And that’s what repenting of sins is.
It’s being sinless, which is not possible.
The Gospel that we are saved by believing is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
I was in the IFB for 16 years. They are super legalistic. They do not know what grace is. They have a list of "rules" they consider to be holy living. I thought if I kept the rules on the list, I was fine and that made me right before the Lord. They do not preach the true gospel of grace. They have a lot of prerequisites for a person to even to come to Christ. Sort of like "cleaning up your act" stuff. Women had to wear dresses/skirts and have long hair. Men had to wear button up dress shirts and have their hair cut above their ears. On and on with the focus on outward appearance.
Couldn't own a TV or like Jon said, go to a movie. Couldn't have a sip of alcohol - one of the biggest sins of all. If you ever miss a church service they question where you were and why you weren't at church. And don't you dare look a a Bible translation that isn't KJV because the devil created those. They are super Arminian in doctrine - they hate the doctrines of grace. They have no expositional preaching at all. Just topical and take Scriptures out of context to fit whatever they want to preach.
They do not tell people we are unable to walk in holiness apart from the Lord working in us. Almost all the preachers in it are unloving and super judgmental. If you are not IFB, they think you aren't even saved. It's very cultish. I thank God for getting me out of it. There's a great channel on YT called Preacher Boys that exposes the IFB. I encourage people to check it out.
@@Adam-gm5tm So we're not to pray in the pattern of the Lord's Prayer, which includes confession of sin?
And no. I'm not saying be sinless. Nor am I saying we're saved by anything but believing. You did exactly what I say we often do. We conflate good habits with holiness. Consciously building positive habits is valuable. Because we are all going to have them, good or bad. That doesn't make it holiness. But it does make for a life that is more conducive to honoring God. Will we fall short? Yes. Am I encouraging pride or legalism? No. A tool is neither good nor bad. What we do with the tool is what makes it good or bad.
@@shawngillogly6873
Confession of sin is not the same as repenting of sins.
1 John 1:9 speaks about confessing or agreeing with God concerning our sins.
Confessing sin is Biblical, repenting of sins is not.
@Adam-gm5tm What about repentance for salvation?
I was raised IFB and had a very good experience. My parents married in a church that was in the Hyles camp....and when all that stuff came out about Jack Hyles the Pastor had " Undying loyalty" to Dr. Hyles. That was not how my parents felt. I was raised at a different IFB church, and it was more " balanced", than the church my parents married at. I am now married to an SBC pastor. I never saw an abuse scandal. I feel like my parents were very balanced. I am thankful for my foundation being IFB.
Theocast has been a blessing to my faith. Thank you. I came from a charismatic background. I am still learning and your podcast is teaching me so much.
How do you know that what they say is true?
@4:55 to @5:04 - I just within the past 3 years have had the same experience where when my Mom died, reality came upon me; Even though I’ve always believed in Jesus Christ, I’d strayed and wasn’t ‘in the Word’. Since then, I’ve come back to Jesus and found that Jesus never left me, even though I backslid from Him.
This is refreshing to hear. I was raised in moralistic churches where people hid their sin to show an “I’ve got it together” outer image. This is incredibly destructive to a person’s spiritual growth, my own included. It stunts your growth and forces you into self loathing because you can never measure up to your own legalistic expectations. Grace is much bigger than that. It’s not just for salvation but also for daily sanctification.
This message finally explains many of my questions, doubts and fears. I look forward to learning more.
Thank you for this message.
A very good book by Gene Edwards, A Tale of Three Kings, helped me understand why God places us under spiritual leadership that seems flawed. Of course it’s a trial for our edification, but it really taught me to rely on God’s decisions for my life because He has a reason for everything. I learned so much solid Bible understanding while in an IFB church. I also learned to listen to the Holy Spirit when He directed me away from it. For me, I was learning from God that pleasing Him was not adherence to these rules of performance. I believe we please God by trusting and obeying Him, and seeking His will. God placed me there for a purpose and when I outgrew the teaching IFB could provide, He led me onward. It was my springboard into trusting God above all others and to discern God’s wisdom from man’s. I’m grateful. God is so good!
So true! I've learned this over the years. The guilt is terrible. Thanks for this.
Thanks for sharing. Sometimes we give the most help by sharing our own experiences. Very helpful.
I was saved through the ministry of an independent Baptist church the preach salvation by grace through faith, but once in the church the does and don’ts and God won’t bless if you violate the lists. Family members including my wife still seem to be held in bondage to this kind of thinking. It’s a struggle, thanks for sharing your struggle.
The only do’s and don’ts are from God in His Word and He is the only one we are accountable to. We are free from the trappings of sin by the washing by the blood of Jesus. We live in joy, not judgment.
We are not justified through faith alone. The Bible and Church History are quite clear on this.
The IFB cult truly damaged my relationship with God.
I strayed so far that I ended up modeling for Playboy.
I am so grateful God did not turn His back on me; He delivered me from demons and is healing my heart.
I’m so grateful He forgave me and I now get to walk authentically with Him.
I still struggle and have issues with church and church people getting too close as I feel smothered. I’m sure that comes from the trauma.
Ummm so how is it a Cult? IFB believe in the Ine true God, Jesus Christ. Just because they are stricter against sin and people are not perfect in the Church doesn’t make them a Cult. Be very careful young lady calling something a cult. Because they don’t follow after a man but God. Look up what a cult is….
Same here brother, especially after I experienced the upper leadership and they didn’t see me as a Yes man
@chiefdigger5216
Some are run like cults by petty dictators in the pulpit. The notion of the 'man of God' holding sway gives rise to this and why Scripture advocates plural leadership. Lots of majoring on minors too or things Scripture is silent on that they call standards laying unnecessary burdens on believers and women in particular. Of course, not all IFB churches are like that but no denying there are those that are toxic environments with rampant spiritual abuse and other forms of abuse too that have been well documented. The Hyles-Anderson orbit has stood out in this ignominious respect.
The Lord used my study of Church history and the reformation to bring me to the truth of reformed theology.
May I ask what you concluded from your study?
@@elisemaiolo4352 Sure,Salvation is 100% God's doing. If one is a believer, its because, The Father chose him and gave him to the Son ,the Son died for him to forgive all his sin and the Holy Spirit takes out his heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh that causes him to believe and then the Holy Spirit seals him .
Thank you for sharing your journey - God has clearly gifted you to move genuine believers toward the great truths and joys of the gospel. I can relate in many ways with your path. ❤
Thank you so much!
I was in the same situation nearly 40 years ago, and it is amazing how similar these "coming out" stories are. I was not raised IFB but ended up at Hyles -Anderson, and through a combination of events and experiences now pastor an independent Reformed church.
So Geoff, painful dark years in my past in the IFB churches, pastor worship was something I never engaged in and was eventually ousted for "testing all things". "proving all things". Hold fast. To that which is good. I'm still pretty lonely today. Home church now.
Thank you for your video! Explains and describes exactly what I'm going through with my brother, the anger, the judgemental attitude. He started going to this kind of church more than a year ago. After hearing the Pastor on a conservative radio station as a guest caller, for tearing up a document during the pandemic. Nightmare ever since. Can't have a reasonable, calm discussion with him, share different views. He's always pushing the church's beliefs on others. Everything you said of your experience is on point! Yes, if you leave their church, they assume you went on to be a junkie and commit all sorts of sins. You are considered the scum of the Earth. A betrayal to the church and to God.
I grew up in the Assembly of God denomination and had a similar experience as you described at the beginning of the video.
I left IFB June 2022. Thankful for how God used them in my life. In PCA since then
@@Shepherd1647 was there a defining moment that let you know you had to leave? For me it was a sermon on Galatians 3 where the preacher totally flipped the meaning of the passage on its head in order to teach dispensationalism.
Must be nice. I grew up in sin and without sound doctrine. I appreciate the IFB because after coming from the world, to going through all types of churches, I finally after ten years I walked in to an IFB church. The bible way still works. 1 Cor 3:18
KJV bible is full of mistranslations, it's a very shitty corrupted version of the bible
Thank you for reminding me of God's precious gift of grace.
You’re welcome!
All do respect, pastor.
I enjoyed listening to your talk.
I am of Mexican descent. Grew up catholic. Accepted Yavashua in the seventies.
Then moved to the desert and joined a fib church learned much . We moved out further so it was difficult to attend church. I missed church , but too far to attend . I asked my Elohim, what shall I do lord ?
He said read the scriptures . Read , and begin at the beginning, genius! To revelation.
So I obeyed . And what I have learned is so much of what I was never taught . And this is very sad , pastor !
I was never taught of the Torah the Tanaka! And etc , etc ! The entire Bible . From the beginning, Yavashua hamachi was there !!!
Why Was I never taught ????
I know who I am in my el shaddai!!!
Hallelujah!
I am a child of the king . And not only do I have his blood running through my viens I am an Israeli.
Yavashua was a Jew ! All the disciples were Jews . We gentiles were grafted to the main branch !
For instance,
The word , Christ. The Roman’s who fought isreal and invaded there territory!
The word , Christ came from them !
Why are we not taught the history of what happened??
I have learned so much . I know who I am in Yavashua hamachi, today .
The Holy Spirit that lives and his presence is
Always with me .
I am Israeli.
Not Mexican, not baptist , not catholic.
I am Israeli, why? Because I have the blood of the lamb running through me . I am sealed and called by name by Elohim!!!
Glory to el shaddai, all mighty G-D!
Good grief! My dear brother, I don’t know where to start. I received Christ as my savior when I was 37 years old. I am now 75 years old. During that time I have been a member of five independent fundamental King James, only Baptist churches. All of them were a little different and all of the pastors of course had some differences. Everyone of these pastors, we’re humble, caring and loving. I personally have never experienced any of the things that you have outlined as being unbiblical. The messages I have heard over these many years have all been very uplifting and encouraging. Grace was always preached. I have not heard a pastor, preach against long hair, tattoos or pants worn by women. I have seen all of these types of people in all of these churches, and they have been welcome with open arms. I’m sorry for your bad experiences and being so discouraged. That is a terrible way to live as a Christian. That being said, I pray for God‘s blessing upon you my dear brother and your congregation. Thank you for letting me ramble on.
Thank you for this video. It helps me feel heard at what I’m currently going through leaving.
"He has (past tense, already done, jistification to life) Perfected (Lord Jesus assured me that He Has Perfeted me forever) FOREVER, THOSE THAT ARE BEING SANCTIFIED.
THE SPIRIT ASSURED ME THAT MY ETERNAL SECURITY IS IN, BY, AND THROUGH MY SAVIOUR AND MASTER JESUS, BECAUSE, HE IS THE ONLY SECURE ONE. AND MY ABBA (DADDY) FATHER, SHOWS HIS AFFECTION DAILY TO ME.
Greetings in Jesus Name brethren. I know IFB preachers some can be nasty and mean and will tear a struggling brother down instead of exhorting them. Not Christ like by no means. Thank you for this. The faith OF ( From ) Christ to believe in Christ which is the gift of God. Amen ( Ephesians) a wonderful book. The KJV stands alone respectfully i say. Thank and God bless you for this.
Steven / Louisiana
Was and still am to a degree, an IFB, but in the Bob Jones camp. As a general demonstration of principles, I've observed a general policy of attempting to dress modestly, putting high priority to the training of children, and definitely reading and praying. In the church I attended, in Greenville, SC, we had both those who were pre-wrath Harpazao (rapture) and no rapture at all. Those who grievesly sinned against others (like cheating on a wife), they repented and stood in front of the church to show their repentance and asked for forgiveness. We watched movies but not R-rated, nor PG-rated. Others outside our camp thought of us as 'legalistic', but generally in the area of modesty or not being modest. My viewpoint is that these people feared and were trying their best to live for the Lord. Those who insulted us and rejected how we lived often refused to tell us why they disagreed with us ("You're wrong, you're legalistic, but I'm not going to tell you why or how, nor show you from Scripture why you're wrong). Was attacked by KJVO occasionally, some were really mean people in that camp.
Glad I listened. I did not come out of this movement. However, many churches teach the “do more, try harder” Christianity, of which I was part of and is burdensome and does not align with “my yolk is easy and my burden is light.” Also, as sinful beings, we tend to think higher of ourselves than we ought and look to others to justify our own righteousness.
I'll be brief but i so appreciated your message of hope and encouragement on this topic! I have been experiecing the same things and have walked away from it all (the corporate church) & whatever the call christianity today... I believe in The father, God, The Most High and his son. Jesus the christ, the messiah, but i also believe what we (believers) who are truly seeking Christ and his message of hope and reconciliation... TO THE POINT, christianity, just like judaism in jesus's day gonna be flipped upside down. Just as the pharisee's and the priest added to and changed God's word then, jesus was calling them out. I walk in a church, judgement, i visit my parents, judgement... Im already under God's judgement. I dont need any more condemnation than what my Bible says... I pray the Lord will save me in the end, because ive had it wrong for so long all while thinking the whole time i am better than ________. No one has any idea for whats coming and so many wont be ready, arent prepared, and believe they are good people, so.... Thanks man. Trying to break free from the dungeon programming, the guilt, the shame, the failure, the fear, the twisting of what christianity is today. Hate is rife in so many churches today, what good is Christ, without love.
You sound like you had a view of my past.
When my mom was converted to Christianity (I was 6 or 7), the closest church to us was an IFB church. She didn't know any better, so we (she, I and my brother) began to attend. Yep, it was typical IFB: no rock music (but country was okay), KJVO, Christianity was judged on men by whether or not they had more than just a wedding ring on, or if their hair was past their ears and collar. Jesus didn't drink wine; He drank "grape juice" (never mind that modern grape juice is only about 200 years old). Luther and Calvin did good work, but didn't go far enough in their reforms. Every non-Catholic Christian of historical note was really a Baptist. Between that and the woman my mom worked with who talked her into eventually thinking that all denominations were evil creations of men, it was a messy upbringing we had. I'm now a confessional Lutheran, and there's no way you could get me anywhere else.
Great video, I can relate to your story bc I grew up in strict Pentecostalism that used the same methods you discussed on holiness. It’s sad that many still want to live in a self righteous attitude that condemns many without even getting to know them.
Let me know if you’d like to try to do an interview coming up from the opposite side of fundamentalism in the Pentecostal environment. Blessings brother.
Ditto, Ditto,Ditto
"The Christian is called, not to individualism but to membership in the mystical Body. A consideration of the differences between the secular collective and the mystical Body is therefore the first step to understanding how Christianity without being individualistic can yet counteract collectivism."[C S Lewis]
I left the IFB for the SBC. After yesrs if that i drfted aeay from church for a number of years. Now I attend an Anglican church and have never been happier. Jesus preserves the temnant church across denominations. I see him preserving the remnant even with all the denominations falling into progressive and eoke theology. I am not able to go back into a low church environment right now. Our church homors God's holiness, his majesty, and his grace. I feel as though i have found the church that will allow me to grow in Christ. Peace of Christ to you brother.
Years ago, I interacted with an Anglican Vicar who seemed like a really nice guy and a genuine brother. I am guessing he would be in a very small group of Anglicans that are faithful to biblical authority and their history foundations? Would this be “Anglican Church in America?”
@@63stratomanActually 85%of the Anglican community follows the Bible and traditional Orthodoxy of the Anglican church. Unfortunately the Church of England and Episcopal church of America have decided to throw this away for social issues.
Anglican worship can be high church, or it can look like an Evangelical church. My church is part of the Anglican Church in North America. It is not for everybody, but it is helping me to become more disciplined and purposeful in my worship of God.
The one thing about the IFB movement, that is completely incomprehensible to me is there dogged king James onlyism. I don’t even understand the argument. Do they find a verse in the king James Bible that says that this is the only translation of scripture that is acceptable? I don’t even know if it’s an argument for the Textus Receptus which is the basis of the king James, or if it is an argument for the reinspiration of the Bible in the English language, 1500 years after the fact even though the English language didn’t exist for over 1000 years after the Bible was written in Greek. What gives? How can otherwise intelligent people believe such nonsense? Can anyone help me with this? I mean I hear them babbling about the corruption of the modern versions, but there were English versions that preceded the king James, such as the Geneva Bible, and there were English versions after the king, James, so what’s so special about the king, James?
God promised he would preserve his word. That doesn’t say it won’t come without corruption. Use discernment when doing this study.
The preserved Bible documentary I believe may and hope will answer your questions friend.
Makes sense why you focus on the things you do.
I did almost exactly the same research in 2013 after 30 years.
A good question for a preacher to ask themselves: when was the last time one of my sermons changed my life? Then the killer follow up: if my preaching doesn't 10:20 change my life, why would I expect it to change anyone else's?
Amen Amen ~ Praying. Forever grateful for the Holy Spirit leading us in truth
My grievance with ifb church is the use if scofield reference bible leading to false doctrine regarding the timing of the so named rapture and more importantly the support for modern day Israel and Judaism. These things are not caused by the use of KJV bible. Anybody that alters Gods word will be punished and there is a long list of such heretics.
I’m an independent fundamental Baptist and have been at FBC Hammond predominantly in the Spanish ministry since I was 2 yrs old. Tbh I’m thankful for this church. If it weren’t for a church reaching my family and I. I would not be in church and preaching the Gospel every week on a bus route. Thankful for salvation, thankful for those fundamental baptists that go and still knock doors and soul win.
If you knocked on my door I'd give you A geneva bible instead of that KJV bullshit
Do you know the gospel Jesus preached? Most fellowships don't have a clue
I think this comment is the reason why people are leaving the IFB, and why it's dying, no mention of being thankful to God, and praising the church, and it's people.
The movement is mancentered, it always has been, and will continue to be. Come out of that movement. You won't be sorry. Don't hear me say, "Leave all that God nonsense", leave the movement*.
No wonder you left the IFB. Trouble is there was the “Hyles” brand IFB which is totally man centered. Too bad you weren’t raised in a good church with a pastor that exalts the Lord Jesus Christ!
Calvinism is just as bad as Hylesism.
@vanreichelderfer8053 actually, I'd say that I found a great church, with good leadership, and we have changed our belief system together, but that's a while other story.
I left reformed theology for similar reasons: legalism, pietism, and reliance on works, grace that doesn’t save, unbiblical view of the sacraments, determinism, and other unbiblical, ahistorical teachings.
I found Lutheranism and now have the peace I didn’t have in reformed theology.
I came out of an extremely unhealthy independent Baptist environment. They were pretty far out honestly, very isolationist, assocated with the person and/or ideology of such stellars as Fred Phelps and Peter Ruckman. I can only praise God he got me out of that to a tasting of the true freedom and life in Christ. Still struggling with some of the repercussions (and, of course, my own issues--I am a sinner, after all); I pray God opens the eyes of those still in that world.
I spent 15 years in leadership and 5 as a regular member. I was so disappointed once I became an assistant to the pastor and began to see all the ungodly things that go on in leadership.
I clicked so fast on this!
Some of the reasons I left.
-Hyper authority pastors
- Bad culture .
- Bad doctrine / Dispensationalists
- Separation from other Christians (supposed to believe IFB is only correct form of Christianity)
- rampant abuse from places like First baptist Hammond .
- idol worship/ pastor worshiping / Jack Hyles
- Legalism
-
sometimes it is a fine line that is crossed from simply having proper moral standards and modest attire to extreme legalism...
I am IFB all the way, but my local church is pretty moderate on things like dress codes....
'The Hammer of God' by Bo Giertz is a must read for every evangelical pastor... listening to your story reminds me of the transformation that the protagonist experienced in the book.
So do you believe the gospel of John Calvin?
what IFB believes you have to live a certain way not to go to hell?!?! I know there are some that are works based but most I know are free grace. You mentioned Jack Hyles he was definitely against works based so thats confusing.
man this dude when from the frying pan ( IFB ) into the fire ( Reformed Calvinism) , this is actually a typical arc for those who can’t live up to the ridiculous standards of the IFB , as the Reformed crowd focus initially is on grace …until they unpack the truth of their “P” of the “tulip” which is perseverance ( though they changed it to preservation from all the blowback they got) and when you peel away the layers of the onion it’s 100% Lordship Salvation.
How bout just be a Christian my guy…
With respect to my brethren, all these movements were never set up by Lord Yeshua. Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc.
We see that happened to Corinth. Pride in a party spirit, divisions, schisms. For various reasons, all the flesh though, with one of the main reason being "WATER BAPTISM." PAUL SAID, THE LORD JESUS DID NOT SEND ME TO BAPTISE., BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL. WATER BAPTISM IS NOT PART OF THE GOOD NEWS OF YESHUA. AT ALL!!! YES IT HAS A PLACE FOR ONE ALREADY JUSTIFIED BY CHRIST.
CRISPUS AND GAIUS...AND IF ANY OTHER I DO NOT EVEN REMEMBER!
Some say I am of Apollos, some say I am of Cephas, some say I am of Paul, and SIME EVEN SAY I AM OF CHRIST! AS IF ONLY CERTAINS ONES ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT WERE REALLY FOLLOWING CHRIST!
DEAR SAINTS, GIVE UP YOUR SYSTEMS AND THE TRADITIONS, AND SIMPLY GATHER TO CHRIST ACCORDING TO HIS PRESCRIPTIVE NEW TESTAMENT PATTERN FOR HIS ASSEMBLY.
ASK YOURSELF, WHY DO I GATHER THIS WAY? WHERE IN CONTEXT IS THE BAPTIST SYSTEM, WHERE THE METHODIST SYSTEM, THE LUTHERAN ETC?
AND THOSE OF YOU THAT HAVE RECIEVED YASHUA "ONLY" AS YOUR ATONEMENT, LEARN YOUR ETERNAL SECURITY IN, BY, AND THROUGH HIM INLY BECAUSE, HE IS THE ONLY ETERNALLY SECURED ONE! AND HE TELLS US HE IS THAT ONE FOR YOU!
AGAPE' IN THE PATIENCE OF CHRIST DEAR BRETHREN.
I attend a Presbyterian church for local fellowship, but have started listening in because most reformed churches have little in the way of theology education in our area. It is good to see someone explain reformed doctrine including why we have confession of sin, confession of faith, creeds, prayers, and communion in fellowship. I want to share these videos with others because I strongly disagree with rapture thinking from the first time I heard it.
Interesting me too
The teaching is new
If all the real Christians get raptured there is no hope for salvation of those left as the only reason the holy spirit here because of the Christians
When we go He goes
There is no second chances
Have faith in the real 'Son of God'.
Nothing compares!
Had similar experiences with IFB.
As a new Christian 5 years ago landed in in IFB church 3.5 years ago. I’ve officially left the IFB but don’t know where I’m going next. I love God but can’t be in the IFB.
Look for the Church that has the outlandisch claim to be founded by Jesus.
Not all IFB churches are the same. There are some Baptists who are Independent and Fundamental that haven’t gone along with the folly of many in the “movement.”
Be a Biblicist, not a denominationalist…
The problem I have with the IFB is the rampant insensitivity toward the blind and visually impaired the movement produces. They tell you that a KJV Bible is absolutely necessary for spiritual growth, but none of them are willing to provide KJV Bibles in Braille. Bible apps are usually not accessible to those of us who use screen readers, but if I say that, they’ll say I’m making excuses for why blind believers don’t read the Bible. There also seems to be a stigma surrounding blind believers having assurance of salvation and growing spiritually in that environment.
Braille Bibles are an essential for a blind or low vision believer. Im sorry for the experience you went through. Hopefully more Braille Bibles in all formats will be available soon. I am becoming a Braille Transcriptionist to help in this.
Wow! praise the Lord!
@Broketoblessed What do you think about the stigma attached to blind and visually impaired believers having assurance of salvation, lack of discipleship resources for the blind, and disability rights in the church? Are you aware of these things?
You are a brave man, and righteous, I congratulate you!!!
Thank you!
God bless.. thank you pastor.
It appears Pentecostalism is the strongest growing group in the last few years.
Notably, Calvinism remains steady for now.
God bless.
Pastor John
Pentecostalism really appeals to the flesh
Which of course is our default as humans
Thank you. I used to live in Franklin TN, so I know the area.. God Bless
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John:2:19
That is talking about denying Jesus, not leaving a theological movement
@@THEOCAST
Do you believe you can lose your salvation?
Nope
I thank Theocast for providing Scripture knowledge that really gives untold comfort. I have been on the path for a long time and been trying to understand. I have been thinking through some Biblical issues and listening to Theocast's and also views of the Dispensational perspective (Grace Ambassadors). I must say Theocast seems to be close to the position of the Dispensationalist. Here is some of what I come to conclude and may clear up confusion. It seems very obvious now, but not so before. Here is my rant. Only from Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles, do we understand Salvation Without Works. Did he receive a different gospel than the 12 Apostles? There seems to be a difference. Is there a difference between Gospel of the Kingdom and The Gospel of Grace? Was Paul just delivering the same gospel as the 12, just tweaked a little OR was Paul's Gospel totally or significantly different (Under Law vs Under Grace w/o the Law). Why was Paul appointed as an apostle in addition to the 12? Why did Jesus see his appointment necessary? Was not the Gospel of the Kingdom concerning Jews Only - Israel under the Law? Is there a difference in Jusus' earthly ministry vs his After Resurrection ministry? Paul's
Thanks for the encourment
I heard about the division and destruction that the IFB can cause when I was in Dubuque,Iowa. There was a good church there known as Dubuque Bible Church. It was growing and having a positive effect on an area that is dominated by catholicism. Some small group of people at Dubuque Bible Church got a hold of some KJV only materials and got taken it by it. They brought it in to the church and they split that church. The people they carried with them left and formed an IFB church and left the Dubuque Bible Church split,hurting,damaged and reeling. The destruction of an entire local church over something as unimportant as what Bible version was being used. That whole thing was nothing but sin. While I was attending the Dubuque Bible Church,we had a mens Bible study in a restaurant. Somebody from the IFB church that had split from DBC overheard us talking and engaged in conversation with us. He claimed that his IFB church had had an evangelistic outreach and that 96 people had been saved. But our pastor at DBC knew about the shallow evangelistic techniques of the IFB,so he asked the guy,how many of them are in church. He wouldnt answer. He said he had to go.
You are spot on, it is grace that teaches us to say no to sin.
Titus 2:11
One thing… as Christians we are no longer “sinners”. We are saints who hopefully sometimes sins. We sin less and less as we learn and grow in Jesus by His grace.
Check out Andrew Farley.
20 years in the IFB and quite familiar with Trieber, Chappell, Hyles, and so forth. Took another 20 years to fully get over, unlearn all the bad stuff and relearning everything correctly! I am now more Independent, more Fundamental, more BAPTIST than ever for all the right reasons and based upon the right things! Yeah, there are good IFB Baptists out there but strange thing is you’d really have to press them to get them to say so plus all of the “Big Name IFB” types I mentioned would consider them to be liberal compromisers and not “true IFB”
To summarize, the IFB crowd we are both speaking of exemplify horrible teaching at best and are potentially false teachers as well as false accusers! Tell them I said so.
I'm always leary of someone that takes a half hour to explain their new found enlightenment??
I'll pray for you
I prayed for you. God bless you brother.
You could spend hours on this subject
I love the IFB. What’s wrong with a foot ball coach? What about military academy? Do you rebel or resist that?
This was very well spoken. All of this is a problem not just in IFB churches but so many others as well. I experienced this raised in a Catholic church and I experienced it in my former church of 29 years which was reformed baptist. My eyes have been opened as I've searched for a church for the past 2 years and have visited over 25.
Is this guy speaking a Calvinist? He doesn't sound like one. Not my experience coming out of a Calvinistic church.
Yes, Theocast is Calvinist. Jon and Justin both. Recommend RUclips channel Beyond The Fundamentals for info on stealth Calvinism which is why you can't detect Calvinism in the Theocast videos. Going from Hyles IFB into Calvinism is frying pan into the fire. I go to IFB church where the pastor and people are loving and godly and what I wear is not an issue. A lot has changed since Jon was IFB. God did some purging of the IFB. Calvinism has no grace and another gospel. Jon says, "I'm not here to talk about Calvinism". Of course not. If he told the truth, people would see how they portray God contrary to His nature, another god and another gospel that is not a gospel.
@kbuchanan2026 I've had a lot to learn the past few years after being immersed in my former church for so long. Yes, I've listened to a ton of Beyond the Fundamental videos and many on stealth calvinism. I listen to various perspectives on doctrine and theology. I am not Calvinistic in my biblical understanding. I do want to understand why others hold to different positions and interpretations. Calvinism is so pervasive that I can not find a church that is not within reasonable driving distance.
Having grown up as an IFB, it was nothing like this. The problem is this guy pretends as if Hyles was the IFB. He wasn't. Hyles was a heretic. As an IFB then and now, I use a modern version, use contemporary music, go to a church with expositional preaching, am a Calvinist, and never had anything to do with Hyles or any of that nonsense. There was no legalism or high pressure altar calls or inability to repent or performance based relationship with God. We had the Bible with good preaching and we had the gospel.
And the beauty of being a Baptist is that I have nothing to do with them. Do not pretend as if this guy's experience is true of all. The IFB is independent. There are all kinds of different stripes.
And one truth remains, you lack any kindness or grace. We pray God’s mercy upon you friend. This is the very attitude the video is speaking of.
@@THEOCAST How did you decide I lacked any kindness or grace? I was simply pointing out that the IFB is much larger than this guy's experience. People should not judge all IFB as if they are like the experience of this guy.
I am not sure how that is unkind or lacks grace. Can you clarify for me?
I don't read any unkindness or lacking grace in the comment above , just sharing in love their truth as THEIR experience as brother or sister in Christ at their church as well? MANY many churches use KJV, even Chuck Smith Calvary Chapel! Dr J Vernon McGee 5 yrs thru the Bible, Dallas Theological Seminary, Dr.Charles Stanley , Billy Graham ,Martin Luther , Dr Martin Luther King and so many faithful very loving pastors teaching truth of God's word, all of it used a KJV. The first bible I've ever understood to my heart was a KJV, gifted to me in 2015- Would you want me to stop reading what keeps me so close to Jesus in my walk? (can read it our loud to yourself , stood the test of time of hundreds of years and grateful for it only bible not copyrighted!)give it a try if having a hard time with a translation may surprise you . Why is so good for me IS It slows me done and has allowed me to love reading my bible! NASB or NKJV Gideon, Amplified or any translation of God's word in a bible that has stood the test of time is great! (Just NO not' bible of the month' trend or fad nor related to world woke junk or sad fall of NIV) ...simply find right translation for you -in real book that is hard copy to love reading it! (online is changable and soon may not even exist ...think gosh in many in other countries have to hide even share 1 page of a bible with their neighbors ).
KJV it a beautiful trusted translation. Is NOT meant to bible thump anyone , Which is a different issue and sounds like misuse of scripture w doctrine of men issues are what you experienced , which sadly someone not understanding all of God's word could do with any translation ,which is NOT what the bible says! Let the Bible defend itself. Let us love one another in truth as Christ commands us! As a preachers child you perhaps experienced also another hard walk along w hurt you experienced.... but we should NOT backbit each other, nor be dividing up what is Christ's church, nor put a stumbling block in front of another!!! INFB is solid in bible believing church. It is difficult to find a bible believing church in 2024 . In many rural areas are only 1 or 2 churches within 1 hr. The one I attended was not like what you describe, though sure there are sadly again churches misguided that are not using God's word but traditions of men. -------------There is one church =it is Jesus's church, the body of Christ , pastors are undershepards and Gods word is beautiful truth, all of it! --------------let us not throw out the baby with the bathwater ,yikes give place evil 1 to divide up what is God's in Christ. Love others and give reverence glory praise to God! grateful for what Jesus has done, that He is Lord over my life, repurchased by soul took my sin died for me and God so loved us to even give HIS word to guide and understand 27%is prophecy (Holy Spirit ensures accuracy in rembrance &UNCTION for anyone to read) God can most certainly use a man/scribe as HIS pen! breathed out inerrant gift to any who read it . Know you are loved!. Jesus is the way the life the truth. yikes woke agenda in church is misuse of scripture and hurting so so many and what Jesus said to any who hurt a child , it is better a millstone be hung around his neck and cast into the utter most parts of the sea....Christ is not far behind in 'days of Noah' that we are living in. God never changes! good resource I know is DTBM or Discover The Book Ministry can go to their web page for truth. Dr John Barnett did 10 yr dissertation on book of Revelation of Jesus Christ to saint John. and is also on RUclips. Take care and God bless you and your family.
IFB's "123 repeat after me" has filled churches with lost members and preachers. 😢
The lack of LOVE in preaching Gods Word????!
My proof was 2-Corinthians; needless to say, the entire New Testament.
2 Corinthians 3:9 KJV;
“For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.”
I grew up carasmatic church and went to various Baptist Churches ended up in a covenant theology church that wouldn't youch Bible prophecy at all and left there to go to another Baptist Church. I never been to a IFB church but that is what I believe now though. You see what the watering down of the gospel has done just to make the church money and to get people in the door.. plus it's hard to be a Dispensationalist when the word dispensation is taken out if modern translation.
Have you read and watched Michael Pearls 8 Kingdom series?
Thanks brother for sharing your story. I understand it very much as I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian environment. It wasn't IFB it was the Christian and Missionary Alliance. However, just listening to Steven Anderson would scare me away from that group...lol. I'm now a Charismatic and saying that to get to a summation more quickly. With all due respect you may have jumped from the frying pan to the fire as you are now reformed. So youve jumped from one system to another. I'm just becoming more familiar with your ministry and your partner in ministry, Justin. I've watched the difference from Calvinist vs Reformed. I will continue to study your views further. Here's the issues I have with your stance.
1. Claiming that Jesus saved you - regeneration preceding faith. That's not biblical
2. Confessionalism trumping scripture
3. Considering your self still as a sinner -the old man is dead. You are no longer a sinner; you are now the righteousness of God -effectually you don't understand your new identity.
4. Pendulum swing to now we dont' have to introspect and we we magically change by grace
5. There's still effort to rest-we labor to rest-we have to partner with Jesus by renewing our mind.
I might go on but those are what I'm discovering so far. I do however understand why you moved from IFB...those reasons are valid. I'm just concerned where you moved and that it might be from the frying pan into the fire. I now understand that when I was born again it was my spirit that was regenerated. The down payment was made. But I still have a soul and body that were not regenerated and I need to contend with that by working out that salvation from my spirit man in to my soul and body.
Huh, most IFBs I have met taught Free Grace theology.
Me too. Especially the ones in the NIFB preach a hardcore salvation by grace through faith.
@@WAhuskies the NIFB is not Free Grace, it just pretends to be it.
I hold to Free Grace theology (but not IFB), but I would never see the NIFB as brethren. Steven Anderson has made statements such as "if you believe, your faith will never waver, you will never have homosexual feelings, you will never use the name Yeshua, you will never kill" etc etc.
I don't understand how Anderson can say that a true believer cannot be murderous, even though David killed a man.
It's interesting to listen to this guy , I came out of disfuncional family and came to fundamentalism and found the best Christian approach to the Scriptures in biblical fundamentalism, I have study the reformed theology and it has many flaws.
I can relate 1000%.
I knew it. He's from First Baptist Church of Hammond
I was saved in an IFB church 30 years ago. My ex-husband was a pastor, I suffered a lot of spiritual abuse in that movement.
Despite leaving it, I am still so thankful God used the means of an IFB church to save me. There are still good people there that I love.
IFB churches rarely preach anything but expository, mostly topical - so things get out of wack. They don't disciple with spiritual disciplines but bind people with "touch not" adding ordinances to God's Word. THAT'S the legalism. That's what the jews did - built walls beyond the commandments. Focusing on the letter of the law so much that they add to the law to keep people from breeching it rather than the heart condition, which is what Jesus taught us. I can't on my own love God with all my heart soul and mind, but I pray every day for more grace to love Him a little more.
I do believe the bible teaches a level of pietism, maybe we are using the word differently?
I do believe the bible teaches sanctification, obedience and separation, taking up our cross and laying down our lives in Christ.
I do like strong preaching. Paul Washer, Voddie Baucham, RC Sproul are some of my favorite well known preachers. I read mostly dead people's books though. Modern legalism as well as modern churches over correction of it has lead to churches that look almost nothing like bible Christians.
That's what led me to reformed, I started searching for churches to fellowship with that looked as close to biblical Christianity as possible.
I now attend an ARP church and LOVE it. They encourage each other to live holy unto God and preach the dictates of God's Word via expository means. There is along with these things, a lot of grace as God grows His children and molds them into the image of His Son. Both can be done without compromise.
Why why why? Calvinism? Why?
Be careful everyone.
Because it’s all about Jesus
Instead of all about the performance of the Christian
It's an interesting irony than in the IFB/KJVO world, the KJV (i.e., the Bible) is the worst enemy of the dark-side folks of the IFB world.
I was baptist all my life, now I am just christian, the fall of Christianity is great. Jesus is God, Man from heaven came in His Body which is not of this world, God born a Son Psalm 110 before this world that when the Word became Flesh, Jesus walked in all of the Old Testament and came through Mary, as He Got in , He got out like angels go through the wall.
Where did you go to seminary? and did the Lord use this experience in your journey to a more reformed theology ?
No, he went to TMS and found reformed theology from reading books they were arguing against. TMS is just another brand of the IFB
@@THEOCAST TMS = IFB ????
@@jeffwatt4684 scratching my head on that also with you. I'm old enough that I used to in the 80's get MacArthur's cassette tapes every few weeks...listened to hundreds of hours of Johnny Mac, have 50 of his books. Was also in an IFB church for about a year. Also took an Abner Chou theology course out of TMS.....TMS is not a brand of IFB. Many IFB pastors and leaders, esp long ago, thought MacArthur a heretic.
@@mikeconnor4736 Thanks for the feedback brother. I thought I was losing my mind there for a moment.
this was well said.
thank you
Reformed Baptist would be the route to go. I cant see how anyone once enlightened regarding believers baptism could turn presbyterian due to baptising babies despite their otherwise sound theology
Jon Pastors a reformed Baptist church, theocast is a reformed Baptist ministry
I’m not going to a church that refuses to step in my toes.
Correction : The Independent "FUNNY Mentalist" Baptist Movement. These guys are mentally off to say th least! Starting with the Granddaddy of them all Jack Hyles.
Dude I work with a guy that's this style and he's so annoying
Dudes fucking insane and believes drums are from the devil
Andy Woods explained that that is how the Pharisees became legalistic. The Jews had gotten Israel in judgement so many times that the Pharisees started to make laws for them to keep them under their thumb and thus ended the pursuit of relationship with the Lord and began the legal pursuits. What a loss!!
You are growing.
Agreed brother!
Hi Jon, my husband and I also grew up in the HI desert California, Apple Valley. After my husband got saved we started going to Calvary Chapel in Hesperia. May I ask, where did you live in the Hi desert?
He lived in Hesperia, his dad pastors Mountain View Baptist church
Thank you
Concerning youth pastors...there's a book called A Weed in the Church by Scott T Brown about age segregation in the church. Worth a read.
Wow, if your sermons were all, do and not do," the problem was not fudamentalism, brother. There are so many strawmen in this video, it is hard to know where to start. The doctrine of Grace does not nullify Godly living.
guys who say "brother" are creepy
I'm calling you a creep in case you missed it
Errors in the King James Version (Boy, are there a lot of them)
First, thanks Jon. Much of this is so excellent and glorious. It's good to rest in the grace of the Gospel.
I had a quesiton on how you distinguish between the conditionality of convenant blessings, and pietism? Specifically, do you think that Christians experience the indicatives of justification and their union with Christ, the blessings of hoping in Christ, in ways that are conditioned on particular kinds of actions done in faith?
An example would be how we see Proverbs, particularly in light of the architecture of the book in proverbs 2, and in light of Proverbs 31, as a kind of covenant document on what the aspiring son of God, and royal Israelite, should do to enjoy YHWH's blessing- namely, normatively, mature into the kind of godly man that pursues a woman like lady wisdom. That's an example, I think Piper's book on Future Grace is great for explicit conditional grace on top of the unconditional grace of the Gospel.
Thanks.
Hebrews, as a Christian sermon, seems to be different than mere Christotelic or Christocentric preaching- which I agree has its place. But, it seems like Pauline Triune Christology includes both the indicatives and imperatives, and that the book of Hebrews seems to show us the supremacy of the Son points to the examples of the OT in Hebrews 11 seen as paradigms and lessons for embodied faith.