I mean astra aint terrible, just like 10x harder to use that every other controller lmao Boaster and Boo make Astra look better than Omen on some maps It's kinda like the Yoru issue You have to spend a lot of time perfecting it or you won't get as much value as using much more simple agents
She is way too hard to use for a controler with little to no value why would you want to play astra when omen exists very easy to play and his full kit is good
@@Methos_ Good thing I'm a controller moreso than duelist main. So I chose her, her kit is forgiving if you suck at fragging out. Just shoot, throw your decay then pray. Her heal works if you just shot at anyone and just died later on(no matter how long), you just need to shoot them. Sometimes I get heals from an enemy that died way too far but hit them early in the game. When I play clove I'm just literally like an average controllers, dies on site after smoking. I prioritize my smoke so hard
@@yesyesyesyesyesyes2021bro you don’t even need to practice for Omen, legit all you need is to find where the smoke ability is bound to on your keyboard. He’s that easy
@@sapphiredagon not facts, you have to know where and when to throw paranoia, its easily his best ability and one of the best in the game but in low elo omens absolutely waste it or do not use it at all, he goes from like best controller to a mid controller if you don't use paranoia properly
@@odinxrk1424 She's also the newest agent so she has less stats while all the other controllers have way more data and brings them down due to how many people played the other agents? Pretty cool right?
Smoking from the dead is severely understated. It dosen't matter to pro's like Tenz really that a smoker can smoke from the dead but for everyone else, especially in pugs, it's vital to everything. Feel like it's super out of touch for pros to be giving opinions on which agents should be buffed/nerfed because there's also 99.9% of the player base that play a completely different game.
He's right though. Smokes from the dead is great but that's literally all they have in their kit. Aside from that you get to play aggressive as controller. Which is good but again, almost no utility.
@@apricot8301 but post death smokes is really strong tho + self revive can be a game changer in the right circumstances, it allows for really aggressive pushes and for aggressive retakes
@@apricot8301 Again, they aren't just "great" they are game defining. Most people who pug go in without any communication in pugs and more times than others you just lose your smoker because they don't really have any set safe position to play in and they can get picked off by a random defender. Having smokes post plant every round or even during retake after the smoker dies will win you rounds. Pros though they started realizing how important smokes are and started playing double controller. They keep their controllers alive. That's why you see like 5v5 or 4v4 retakes all the time because they understand to give up site and play retake. It's just her pug play versus competitive play is so different that it's hard to understand the character if you just look at it from Tenz perspective.
I don't know why people think the game shouldn't be balanced around pro play. If anything it is meant to be played as a team and also it is meant to be tactical shooter so I think they should even balance it more around pro play.
@@petarpetrov1784 Because pro's play the game in a way that normal players do not. It's really as simple as that. Like yes it's a team game that's a tactical shooter but that doesn't mean your team is going through every strat. Practicing against every possible team. Learning lineups for every situation. Just think of Astra as an example as why the game shouldn't be balanced around pros. If Riot wanted to balance the game around pros they would nerf that character further into the ground even though she has a negative play rate in regular competitive play. They might as well delete Viper too.
@@phantomfox6020 she cant As a clove main, I can ensure she cant smoke 5 back to back like omen does there's 1 or 2 sec gap between the 2nd and 3rd smoke which is enough to go for a site hit whereas for omen its like instant which stops site hit
Clove being able to smoke dead is literally what balances them out, sane players arent pushing smokes dry, they use util, now that will deplete their util unless the enemy is a gekko who's picked their shit up, so it offers push prevention even whilst dead, if they rotate, then maybe there's less opportunity for clove to shine, but omen can't smoke when they're dead, or flash for that matter, they have no usefulness after dying so, I don't think any buffs or nerfs are necessary. But if there had to be, clove ult should be able to phase through players before manifesting, maybe walls but that's too broken
I think the post death smoke on clove make them very viable in ranked games because of post plant situations. As omen if they hit my site yes i can hold them off and get 1 or 2 but if I die and the site is taken I cant smoke off the bomb. While on clove i can smoke off bomb even when im dead. Ranked players are very bad at retakes as they require more coordination than just a simple push. Smokes help so much in post plants.
@@EagleAirOne please point out where I used they them to refer to clove, the only instance of they was in reference to the enemy "they rotate", I.e. the enemy team. Singular they them has you in a chokehold now even basic comprehension is beyond you
@@EagleAirOne why do people actually give a shit about the pronouns of a video game character who doesn't even fucking exist in real life to give a shit about being misgendered
You wanna know what changes they should make about Clove? smoke colors, I can't distinguish friend and enemy smoke, it's hard to tell if an enemy is nearby, you might think to use team's Clove's smoke as cover only to find 5 vandals in eyeball.
@@hesaidchest I think you misunderstood ...I'm talking about smokes, not enemy outlines, it's hard to tell smoke colors between enemy clove, and friendly clove.
He is right. Clove's decay ball can't even be used to make a lineup cuz it will explode after in the air for certain time. If RIOT would allow it to react as sova's dart that would awesome cuz you can now make lineup. Plus, if decayed plus 1.5 seconds slow would be AMAZING!
The decay is just too good to be lineupable. You can annihilate pushes if you use it correctly or use it when retaking sites. Just use the walls to bounce the decay off from and then peak it
I love how clove gets 900 smokes and can do it while dead but viper only gets one molly now, can't pick up her orb, ult takes most of a half to charge, and your wall is only going to work in one spot 💀.
Viper is still an S tier agent if you know what you’re doing, her and Omen have been way better than any other controller for too long and I say this as someone who mains both
@Aninefivesiix She's not terrible but she feels so one dimensional and clunky now. You only have options for exactly one push/hold or now your kit is useless 💀. Since none of us are pros; it always goes horribly wrong or teammates did something else entirely. Having all of her kit reduced to merely one charge feels awful. Clove can literally be one tapped at the start of the round and place eight entire smokes in and around site 💀. Omen regenerates it constantly and has good play making potential with his massive flashes and teleports. Brim is in a similar spot but his molly is actually good and his smokes last forever. Ult just wins rounds by itself lol. Harbor is great for completely zoning off a site and will get his wall back later. Even Astra gets a charge or two through the round (if she pulls off her stars) and being able to bully anyone on spike or use her wall to great effect. I just wish she kept one of her changes. She feels a bit massacred at least in solo queue even if funny wall go brr.
cloves util: Smokes even when dead Can bring herself back to fucking life a better reyna heal decay call me crazy but it sounds like clove is an offensive controller. she is fine.
I think clove does help the team out substantially, her decay is great in combo with other util or even to support tm8s in their own gunfights, her ult can be a good bait to push onto sites, delay post plant or sometimes get a free defuse, smokes after death for obvious reasons like smoking off bomb, doing fake smokes or genuine smokes, and she can get like 5-6 in a round because of it, the only real negatives you come across using her is her smoke range and her ult can be buggy where you press it and it won't res
I think the reasoning should be that Clove needs longer smokes because of the sentinel meta. By the time you enter the site and CLEAR backsite the smokes are gone. Those are crucial especially on maps like Ascent, Abyss and Bind where the smokes matter since they give space.
I see clove as a flex agent, shes a controller, duelist, initiator mix. She gains info with site entry and ult, her decay orb is for team combos, if she dies. Her smokes are usable to help hold cerain areas of the map. Shes a team agent, not a solo agent. Omen can lurk a whole game. Brims util is for the team minus the molly, but if used correctly can be used with the team.
You could make a change where smoke after death are shorter (12s) and while alive they are larger. Also the fact that clove is supposed to be the aggressive on front controller and yet they decided to give her the option of smoking like brim - which is more clunky and makes you stop for a second.
We had different lasting smokes already and they generalised the smoke refreshes as well as Initiator util refresh. It is not about strength but to get a better feel for the game and the timings. Actually I think Controllers are in a alright spot, especially in pro play: We have Harbor/Viper, Viper/Brim, Solo Omen, Solo Astra and different Clove pairings.
Harbor and Clove needs some adjustments, Cloves decay have very limited use , Harbor walls are downright bad for anyone who enters due to slows . Astra they just clipped her wings with nerf. Viper, Omen, Brim this trio are very well in a competitive spot
Honestly one of the craziest thing about omen i dont know of this only happens in my elo(silver),even though you can hear omen tp you are not able to tell where he tped like in yoru case you know in which direction he tped.many times i just use shrouded step on my current location and catch my opponent off guard because he assumed i had changed locations.
just make clove smokes last as long as omens, she's amazing in solo queue not because of her smokes but because of her ult and ability to smoke after death. a longer smoke time would just be a nice QOL change
Clove is way different a chracter than omen just because omen has better team util doesnt meant clove should get better smokes, she is a dualist type smoker that is why they dont wanna make her have longer smokes. Omen is vulnerable while teleporting thats why its better to give him better smokes and blind, jett is the same. Buffing clove is kind of stupid since she was not created to be that type os smoker. We are already in double smokes meta and giving these types of quick smokers better util is gonna cause a lotjof problems. U can see viper for example.
As a controller main, more specifically omen and astra main, i know instinctively when my smoke is going to fade. This is why i hate brim smokes when the opponent has a brim. It really messes with my timing. So yes, his smoke does last an entire fucking year.
Clove already has the highest win rate of any agent because her ability to smoke after she’s died is absurdly broken. Just wins you an extra couple rounds every game. Clove is one of the most picked agents already. A buff would be so ridiculously short sighted and I don’t agree with this take.
@@mykeforu you are nuts if you think thats gonna be OP, and getting kills for refreshable utility is a duelist design. She still doesn't have the exec power of an omen flash and currently omen is almost always picked over astra smh
yeah, I agree with tenz. Clove pistol round was affecting win rate, and Riot decided to nerf her to the ground. idk why when Chamber and kj took months to nerf them, then for clove, it was like, what in 3 weeks? Her smoke should be longer than omen she can't even one way. dead smoke ult all useless cuz it's so easy to counter them.
dont ask riot to balance agents cz they will nerf the strong ones bfr they ever think of buffing the weak ones, at one point abilities r gonna become a "ye u can click c for random effect it looks nice" instead of actually doing anything significant.
Better that then constantly making everything strong until you get tacfps Overwatch where everything is powercreeped to hell and the game feels awful to play
nerfing strong ones is always better than buffing weak ones in the long run because of how insane powercreep will become. At least when you nerf agents, the main change would be more gunplay and slightly less overpowering util, which many might appreciate and it wouldnt be a necessarily bad thing. The opposite isnt true though
They can’t nerf omen. His ranked win rate is absolutely dogshit at around 46%, compared to Clove who has a 53% win rate. I’m happy with omen and clove and where they are, I don’t like seeing clove in pro play because I think she just sucks at pro play and should stay in ranked. However, Astra and harbor are just pitiful at this point.
i appreciate yalls opinions, and i am aware tht power creep is a thing, however if buffing the agents too much makes this overwatch, then nerfing them too much also makes this a worse cs, valorant has always been abt balancing these 2 things.
I main clove even though i fully agree on this. Since im in lower ranks i really like having some heal and the revive is nice to have for stalling time in post plants
The main thing is how people play Clove, she isn’t like a traditional smoker imo thats why its hard to balance her. She thrives best when being played aggressive like a duelist. Which her kit basically enforces. Ima keep it real, realistically if they wanted her to fit more of a controller role they need buff her smokes and meddle nerf pick me up possibly make the speed buff a bit slower and hp gain less I wont get into the specifics cause im lazy and you should get the point by now. So in conclusion nerf her dueling potential and buff her controlling. Speaking from a Clove main lmao
@@Sfx-o4mshe needs to be more toxic. Shes gotten like 3 nerfs in a row? Maybe more. They nerfed her fuel a while ago, then her orb can’t pick up anymore, and now her mollies
@@r8tdviper doesn’t need buffs. she was insanely broken, when a character gets nerfed 3 times in a row it’s usually for a reason, viper was a better choice than any other controller/sentinel on almost every map. it’s the same with omen now, the smokes that fill the same role as omen, clove and astra are really weak compared to him. but i agree that instead of nerfing omen they should instead buff those two
@@fr4nky2 but they nerfed her too much. It’s the same as chamber when they nerfed him but they nerfed him into the ground and they realized it and then buffed him a little. I agree viper was broken before but she’s damn near unplayable now except on icebox. When was the last time omen got nerfed? lol. They’ve nerfed every controller except omen
its not because her kit is good its because her kit is so simple you dont need to think about what you're doing, and she can recharge her health. 90% of ranked duels are 1v1's so characters with health advantage typically will win more often (reyna, iso, clove).
@@strongpassword4827 that's a shitty comparison, buffing clove smokes won't change her already stupid playstyle in ranked. If you really feel that clove is fucking up ranked like reyna then nerf her self heal and ultimate, otherwise she's a horrible team orientated agent
clove is for when 4 of your team already picked their agent and the only remaining role to fill is smoker. it's for players that don't play smokes but they had to fill because they didn't lock their agent fast enough. lol
As a clove main, there's a couple things that irk me lol You can't ult while last alive unless the bomb is planted AND your on attacking side. Mettle feels like it should just be something else, it's a situationally very cool ability that let's you do some cool stuff BUT clove can't really capitalize off of it's use. Compared to other controller's, clove just isn't as good at "Controlling." and the Duelist aspects of the kit that they added aren't enough to let clove be good at that either.
Change medal to an actual blind that last 1.5 - 2 seconds then make her smoke last 13 seconds. One ways should be unique to omen but imo to make it less broken, riot should make the one way sit higher as a nerf, so it doesnt make it as OP
I miss when astra was part of the meta. I kept being a main astra even after the first few nerfs because she was just so satisfying to use, but they just ruined her kit. Before, she was hard to use because using her abilities required lots of thinking, now shes hard to use because shes useless.
I feel like the clove thing is the fact that clove can put pressure from other util like iso and vyse in a way. Like omen is a very good agent but i don't think it would be healthy for the game to nerf omen's paranoia mor his smokes and smokes in general
and then you pull up statistics and realise that Omen has a sub 50% wr in both ranked and pro play, the only rationale behind nerfing omen being "paranoia feels op and i love oneways"
But i still hope that omen doesnt get nerfed. Omen is fun to play as, fun to play with and fun to play against. They should buff some other controllers, though
i actually fw this take, make it so cloves smokes last 12 seconds after death and alive its 16.5 sec or smthn, also pick me up heal should last longer no?
What I want for clove is a frag grenade like raze. Because oh my god...there have been so many games where non of my teammates who instalocked raze or sova broke common trip locations.
because bro is literally forgetting the one thing clove does, smoke after death, so if her smoke timer is same as brim, sites would just be perma smoked off with no vison at all, being even worse than viper
just so u know the reason why clove smokes has such a short timer is because of how fast her smokes regen + she can drop max of 2 smokes after her death. therefore bro is literally forgetting the one thing clove does, smoke after death, so if her smoke timer is same as brim, sites would just be perma smoked off with no vison at all, being even worse than viper
I think the problem with that might be to take their ults into consideration. You need to have balanced kits. Omens Base kit is stronger than cloves, but the cloves ultimate is just so much more powerfull and has way more impact. Omens ult is very situational and cloves ult is universal. If u were to buff cloves kit to be as strong as omens he would be completly outmached (My Opinion)
Omen is undeniably the best smokes agent for almost every map, obviously there’s maps like Breeze and Fracture and Icebox, but talking just ranked and not pro play, Omen is the pick almost every map
Unfortunately that'd just be a buff to Clove, which I don't mind because she's my second main, but I don't see the value in buffing an already strong character in ranked. In Pro matches, just keep using Omen.
Imagine if Valve own Valorant Astra have unlimited stars, Brim have 2 Stim and Molly, Viper wall can be extended full map Literally makes all agent Broken
It’s ironic cus I have the opposite opinion to tenz. Clove feels like solo q wet dream. A controller dualist hybrid that can still do their job if they die. As clove I want to be agro and go for kills. And if I die my team still has smokes. I can still place smokes to mind game if my teamate is rotating. The ult to come back is nice as a self res and also is useful for post plant stall. She feels like my go to for every solo q game and I’m always happy to have her. Other smokers have their uses but I’d take her over brim and even omen honestly any day. But I’m not in the higher ranks so it’s a different game in some ways
imo get rid of being able to smoke while dead and maybe put that power budget somewhere else, not sure where i just think the smoking while dead is uninteresting and its not even that good anyway
the clove nerf was NOT NECESSARY to that point I understand reducing the ult time but why increase the price of the overheal? and decrease its time too?
Increasing the price was def so that u can't buy it w/ a ghost on pistol And yk just look at clove stats A higher winrate for most players compared to every single agent in the game
@@wendigo374wdym no util? Does she not have smokes? Which is supposed to be her role? She’s not meant to be a Reyna with her overheal + brim stim on pistol round?
Ive started to play him since the destruction of viper . He is not as bad as i thought but its definetely not ooptimal to have only walls ( the cove get spammed by 2 guy and fade in 2sec)
@@yesyesyesyesyesyes2021people always say this but legitimately, pros are very rarely picking him. He needs second Cove + faster throw speed so he can do Cove lineup for lurk smoke on other site
Clove is insane in low to mid elo where team play is out of the window and people just aim duels like a fucking csgo match. Omen is broken if your team can follow suit but omen is being overshadowed by Clove in low elo like how reyna is better than jett or raze in low elo. Clove is even good in high rank in certain comp. I just want more solo sustainability for omen.
I genuinely don't understand how Clove has the best win rate out of all agents when she seems so mid at a glance. Meddle takes forever to throw & just seems really situational, her smokes are smokes (not much you can say about them) & she only gets one refresh, which is on a timer. Maybe it's the ult that makes her good idk. As I am new to Valorant (only been playing since the console beta) I don't know if Viper could originally pick up her smoke, but I really wish that was possible currently. I forgot that Harbor was a controller because he's so bad: his own water shouldn't slow him & it should do more than slow to prevent enemies brazenly pushing through.
I’m nowhere near this guys level of skill but I just don’t agree. I think omens strongest point is his TP. The ability to shoot from one angle and immediately get a new angle is insane. Smokes are great tools and better used as long range blockers instead of smoking entry ways. Even using them for spike is good but I feel it’s more on how you use Omen. The blind only works if you know for sure they’re there unlike Reyna you have a wide range of use for her blinds. Clove should probably have an equal smoke to Omen but again as he said in the video… Cloves revive and afterlife smokes are really good.
the game can't be balanced around pro play alone, look at clove's ranked stats compared to omen a few patches ago. Clove had an absurd 16% delta over omen.
@@wendigo374 more people who plays a character usually means that your stats would plummet since "good players" are minorities. if she has the best winrate of any character and more delta than any controller that means she is so busted that even with more people playing her she is still the best controller. you proved his point.
Well for a start i guess we can make it so that when clove is alive her smokes last longer and when dead it can just be the current duration.
that actually an amazing middle ground
*their
Yeh 15s and 12 sec would be nice honestly
@@empiresloth bro.. its a videogame character..
@@alextu3526bro liked his own comment😂
when astra doesn't even get mentioned
when we literally saw astras entire kit be disrespected and useless with Trace
Worst agent with the worst design imo
I mean astra aint terrible, just like 10x harder to use that every other controller lmao
Boaster and Boo make Astra look better than Omen on some maps
It's kinda like the Yoru issue
You have to spend a lot of time perfecting it or you won't get as much value as using much more simple agents
@@thenomainman5499She’s not that hard 😂 it’s just that yall valo players have a low iq
She is way too hard to use for a controler with little to no value why would you want to play astra when omen exists very easy to play and his full kit is good
Clove is not meant to be a pro scene agent. Clove is there so that Reyna mains can fill on smokes.
wordd
clove players are usually so bad at smoking too :/
Cuz they r reyna mains lmaoo..but then ig anybody who actually cares can learn basics of smoking a site very easily.@@Methos_
@@Methos_ Good thing I'm a controller moreso than duelist main. So I chose her, her kit is forgiving if you suck at fragging out.
Just shoot, throw your decay then pray. Her heal works if you just shot at anyone and just died later on(no matter how long), you just need to shoot them. Sometimes I get heals from an enemy that died way too far but hit them early in the game. When I play clove I'm just literally like an average controllers, dies on site after smoking. I prioritize my smoke so hard
@@Methos_fr they just pick them because of the aesthetics 😂 some of them don’t even smoke they just play clove for the overheal and rebirth
Controller current state:
1. Choose omen
2. Any better option in a certain map? Choose that
3. Confused? Hesitant? Pick omen
Omen never goes wrong
this is real af lmao
0. Practice for hours and learn every map so you can use omen effectively
@@yesyesyesyesyesyes2021bro you don’t even need to practice for Omen, legit all you need is to find where the smoke ability is bound to on your keyboard. He’s that easy
@sapphiredagon and yet he is the lowest winrate controller for a reason
@@sapphiredagon not facts, you have to know where and when to throw paranoia, its easily his best ability and one of the best in the game but in low elo omens absolutely waste it or do not use it at all, he goes from like best controller to a mid controller if you don't use paranoia properly
This is a pro-play take btw guys, clove is insane in a ranked environment because she‘s self sustaining and does everything well.
She is not insane in ranked lol
@@blazewashere7479 oh yeah for sure thats probably why she is the highest win rate agent by far across all elos right?
Nah she is I'm in plat for my first ever time playing ranked and haven't played 20+ matches@@blazewashere7479
@@odinxrk1424regardless she is not at all comparable to other smokes
@@odinxrk1424 She's also the newest agent so she has less stats while all the other controllers have way more data and brings them down due to how many people played the other agents? Pretty cool right?
thomas the tank engine had me dead ngl
Smoking from the dead is severely understated. It dosen't matter to pro's like Tenz really that a smoker can smoke from the dead but for everyone else, especially in pugs, it's vital to everything. Feel like it's super out of touch for pros to be giving opinions on which agents should be buffed/nerfed because there's also 99.9% of the player base that play a completely different game.
He's right though. Smokes from the dead is great but that's literally all they have in their kit. Aside from that you get to play aggressive as controller. Which is good but again, almost no utility.
@@apricot8301 but post death smokes is really strong tho + self revive can be a game changer in the right circumstances, it allows for really aggressive pushes and for aggressive retakes
@@apricot8301 Again, they aren't just "great" they are game defining. Most people who pug go in without any communication in pugs and more times than others you just lose your smoker because they don't really have any set safe position to play in and they can get picked off by a random defender. Having smokes post plant every round or even during retake after the smoker dies will win you rounds. Pros though they started realizing how important smokes are and started playing double controller. They keep their controllers alive. That's why you see like 5v5 or 4v4 retakes all the time because they understand to give up site and play retake. It's just her pug play versus competitive play is so different that it's hard to understand the character if you just look at it from Tenz perspective.
I don't know why people think the game shouldn't be balanced around pro play. If anything it is meant to be played as a team and also it is meant to be tactical shooter so I think they should even balance it more around pro play.
@@petarpetrov1784 Because pro's play the game in a way that normal players do not. It's really as simple as that. Like yes it's a team game that's a tactical shooter but that doesn't mean your team is going through every strat. Practicing against every possible team. Learning lineups for every situation. Just think of Astra as an example as why the game shouldn't be balanced around pros. If Riot wanted to balance the game around pros they would nerf that character further into the ground even though she has a negative play rate in regular competitive play. They might as well delete Viper too.
they really do need to make cloves smokes longer tho
she cna smoke upo to 5 times she dont need longer smokes
@@phantomfox6020gold take .
@@phantomfox6020 she cant
As a clove main, I can ensure she cant smoke 5 back to back like omen does
there's 1 or 2 sec gap between the 2nd and 3rd smoke which is enough to go for a site hit
whereas for omen its like instant which stops site hit
Her kit isn't team oriented, having longer smokes will make it more team oriented
@@yesyesyesyesyesyes2021 yeah but like i dont think they really need to do much more with clove. A brim or astra buff could prolly balance out omen.
clove smokes should be longer while alive and shorter while dead
Leave my boy omen alone it isn’t his fault that he actually is fun and feels interesting to play against
the key point is that Omen can place his smokes however, so he can do the one-ways way more efficiently to your advantage
Clove being able to smoke dead is literally what balances them out, sane players arent pushing smokes dry, they use util, now that will deplete their util unless the enemy is a gekko who's picked their shit up, so it offers push prevention even whilst dead, if they rotate, then maybe there's less opportunity for clove to shine, but omen can't smoke when they're dead, or flash for that matter, they have no usefulness after dying so, I don't think any buffs or nerfs are necessary.
But if there had to be, clove ult should be able to phase through players before manifesting, maybe walls but that's too broken
I think the post death smoke on clove make them very viable in ranked games because of post plant situations. As omen if they hit my site yes i can hold them off and get 1 or 2 but if I die and the site is taken I cant smoke off the bomb. While on clove i can smoke off bomb even when im dead. Ranked players are very bad at retakes as they require more coordination than just a simple push. Smokes help so much in post plants.
*her
@@EagleAirOne please point out where I used they them to refer to clove, the only instance of they was in reference to the enemy "they rotate", I.e. the enemy team.
Singular they them has you in a chokehold now even basic comprehension is beyond you
@@BarelyFunctionalTK exactly, but too many are focused on what makes clove bad rather than what makes clove good
@@EagleAirOne why do people actually give a shit about the pronouns of a video game character who doesn't even fucking exist in real life to give a shit about being misgendered
You wanna know what changes they should make about Clove? smoke colors, I can't distinguish friend and enemy smoke, it's hard to tell if an enemy is nearby, you might think to use team's Clove's smoke as cover only to find 5 vandals in eyeball.
change your ingame enemy colors then.
Never had that problem, you’re just plain dumb then
@@hesaidchest I think you misunderstood ...I'm talking about smokes, not enemy outlines, it's hard to tell smoke colors between enemy clove, and friendly clove.
He is right. Clove's decay ball can't even be used to make a lineup cuz it will explode after in the air for certain time.
If RIOT would allow it to react as sova's dart that would awesome cuz you can now make lineup.
Plus, if decayed plus 1.5 seconds slow would be AMAZING!
The decay is just too good to be lineupable. You can annihilate pushes if you use it correctly or use it when retaking sites. Just use the walls to bounce the decay off from and then peak it
clove is meant for the instalock jett reyna iso players that are stuck playing smokes in ranked
ur hardstuck because you whine too much
@@alexanderj8297 what?
the thing is meddle and paranoia literally cost the same (both 250 creds), idk what they were thinking with this one.
I love how clove gets 900 smokes and can do it while dead but viper only gets one molly now, can't pick up her orb, ult takes most of a half to charge, and your wall is only going to work in one spot 💀.
Viper is still an S tier agent if you know what you’re doing, her and Omen have been way better than any other controller for too long and I say this as someone who mains both
@Aninefivesiix She's not terrible but she feels so one dimensional and clunky now. You only have options for exactly one push/hold or now your kit is useless 💀. Since none of us are pros; it always goes horribly wrong or teammates did something else entirely. Having all of her kit reduced to merely one charge feels awful.
Clove can literally be one tapped at the start of the round and place eight entire smokes in and around site 💀. Omen regenerates it constantly and has good play making potential with his massive flashes and teleports. Brim is in a similar spot but his molly is actually good and his smokes last forever. Ult just wins rounds by itself lol. Harbor is great for completely zoning off a site and will get his wall back later. Even Astra gets a charge or two through the round (if she pulls off her stars) and being able to bully anyone on spike or use her wall to great effect.
I just wish she kept one of her changes. She feels a bit massacred at least in solo queue even if funny wall go brr.
Yet she usable on every single map in proplay
cloves util:
Smokes even when dead
Can bring herself back to fucking life
a better reyna heal
decay
call me crazy but it sounds like clove is an offensive controller. she is fine.
I think clove does help the team out substantially, her decay is great in combo with other util or even to support tm8s in their own gunfights, her ult can be a good bait to push onto sites, delay post plant or sometimes get a free defuse, smokes after death for obvious reasons like smoking off bomb, doing fake smokes or genuine smokes, and she can get like 5-6 in a round because of it, the only real negatives you come across using her is her smoke range and her ult can be buggy where you press it and it won't res
I think the reasoning should be that Clove needs longer smokes because of the sentinel meta. By the time you enter the site and CLEAR backsite the smokes are gone. Those are crucial especially on maps like Ascent, Abyss and Bind where the smokes matter since they give space.
I see clove as a flex agent, shes a controller, duelist, initiator mix. She gains info with site entry and ult, her decay orb is for team combos, if she dies. Her smokes are usable to help hold cerain areas of the map. Shes a team agent, not a solo agent. Omen can lurk a whole game. Brims util is for the team minus the molly, but if used correctly can be used with the team.
The reason why cloves smokes last so short is because their ability to smoke after death is factored into her smokes.
Who?
@@ExitScamI asked
You could make a change where smoke after death are shorter (12s) and while alive they are larger. Also the fact that clove is supposed to be the aggressive on front controller and yet they decided to give her the option of smoking like brim - which is more clunky and makes you stop for a second.
If you're gonna say "their", do it both times. Zzzzz
No one cares cloves a fine baddie @@TheSickonion
Cloves Ult should be as fast a reynas dismiss so you can actually do something with it when your on your own.
I agree the smokes feel like 7 seconds as clove
We had different lasting smokes already and they generalised the smoke refreshes as well as Initiator util refresh. It is not about strength but to get a better feel for the game and the timings.
Actually I think Controllers are in a alright spot, especially in pro play: We have Harbor/Viper, Viper/Brim, Solo Omen, Solo Astra and different Clove pairings.
Harbor and Clove needs some adjustments, Cloves decay have very limited use , Harbor walls are downright bad for anyone who enters due to slows . Astra they just clipped her wings with nerf. Viper, Omen, Brim this trio are very well in a competitive spot
@@pauloazuela8488Omen paranoia is too good, like tenz say, it does everything,
Honestly one of the craziest thing about omen i dont know of this only happens in my elo(silver),even though you can hear omen tp you are not able to tell where he tped like in yoru case you know in which direction he tped.many times i just use shrouded step on my current location and catch my opponent off guard because he assumed i had changed locations.
just make clove smokes last as long as omens, she's amazing in solo queue not because of her smokes but because of her ult and ability to smoke after death. a longer smoke time would just be a nice QOL change
Lmao his comparison is so funnily explained but so valid at the same time
Clove is way different a chracter than omen just because omen has better team util doesnt meant clove should get better smokes, she is a dualist type smoker that is why they dont wanna make her have longer smokes. Omen is vulnerable while teleporting thats why its better to give him better smokes and blind, jett is the same. Buffing clove is kind of stupid since she was not created to be that type os smoker. We are already in double smokes meta and giving these types of quick smokers better util is gonna cause a lotjof problems. U can see viper for example.
As a controller main, more specifically omen and astra main, i know instinctively when my smoke is going to fade. This is why i hate brim smokes when the opponent has a brim. It really messes with my timing. So yes, his smoke does last an entire fucking year.
Clove isnt supposed to be support though his main kit is that heal and decay that make her aggressive.
HOLY CRISES TENZ GET IT SOMEONE FINALLY GETS IT
Meddle is actually really good if you pair it with team abilities like razes grenade, or killjoys aoe trap.
I always use meddle to spam smokes, but it should have more flight time, cause god damn it, it always explodes mid air like a firework
when I meddle I usually follow up with a spray through the smoke
If anything her ult needs work, enemy just follows clove ult and guns her down most of the time or just run away and wait for clove to die again
As an Omen main, i see no lies. Also dont nerf Omen pls
Clove already has the highest win rate of any agent because her ability to smoke after she’s died is absurdly broken. Just wins you an extra couple rounds every game. Clove is one of the most picked agents already. A buff would be so ridiculously short sighted and I don’t agree with this take.
Astra 5th star?
👍
Good change
you are nuts if you think thats fine shes gonna be so OP, maybe just atleast make 1 star max rechargeable after 1 kill
@@mykeforu you are nuts if you think thats gonna be OP, and getting kills for refreshable utility is a duelist design. She still doesn't have the exec power of an omen flash and currently omen is almost always picked over astra smh
@@nfxm5117astra did have 5 stars before and it made her a must pick for pros on half of the maps.
yeah, I agree with tenz. Clove pistol round was affecting win rate, and Riot decided to nerf her to the ground. idk why when Chamber and kj took months to nerf them, then for clove, it was like, what in 3 weeks? Her smoke should be longer than omen she can't even one way. dead smoke ult all useless cuz it's so easy to counter them.
notice how he said balance around it and not kill it instantly with nerfs
dont ask riot to balance agents cz they will nerf the strong ones bfr they ever think of buffing the weak ones, at one point abilities r gonna become a "ye u can click c for random effect it looks nice" instead of actually doing anything significant.
Better that then constantly making everything strong until you get tacfps Overwatch where everything is powercreeped to hell and the game feels awful to play
bro hasnt experienced the hell of power creep
nerfing strong ones is always better than buffing weak ones in the long run because of how insane powercreep will become. At least when you nerf agents, the main change would be more gunplay and slightly less overpowering util, which many might appreciate and it wouldnt be a necessarily bad thing. The opposite isnt true though
They can’t nerf omen. His ranked win rate is absolutely dogshit at around 46%, compared to Clove who has a 53% win rate.
I’m happy with omen and clove and where they are, I don’t like seeing clove in pro play because I think she just sucks at pro play and should stay in ranked.
However, Astra and harbor are just pitiful at this point.
i appreciate yalls opinions, and i am aware tht power creep is a thing, however if buffing the agents too much makes this overwatch, then nerfing them too much also makes this a worse cs, valorant has always been abt balancing these 2 things.
As a controller player myself I agree with tenz they definitely should make clove smokes longer
oh fuck here comes pyrohd.
lol
That guy is probably Aldricbenije's student💀💀 just a bit more unhinged and weird.
He became silent when sen is persevering XDDD
I main clove even though i fully agree on this. Since im in lower ranks i really like having some heal and the revive is nice to have for stalling time in post plants
Clove's overheal should be permanent and the metal should also have some sort of permanent damage like mosh/molly
The main thing is how people play Clove, she isn’t like a traditional smoker imo thats why its hard to balance her.
She thrives best when being played aggressive like a duelist. Which her kit basically enforces.
Ima keep it real, realistically if they wanted her to fit more of a controller role they need buff her smokes and meddle
nerf pick me up possibly make the speed buff a bit slower and hp gain less I wont get into the specifics cause im lazy and you should get the point by now.
So in conclusion nerf her dueling potential and buff her controlling. Speaking from a Clove main lmao
I actually agree, controllers got another unintended buff with the pings not being able to go thru smokes!
TenZ doesn't understand something simple, not only pros play this game, WE ARE MILLIONS. Clove is more than fine in high elo ranked.
Maybe Clove's smoke from 14s to 17s, and Astra's Well from 1.25s to 1s to activate (before was 0.6s)
I don’t think I’ve ever used Clove’s decay ability
I main controller
I honestly agree on this
Astra needs more orbs tho & Harbor needs a buff (and Viper too coz I miss her)
Viper doesnt need a buff, she was extremely toxic
@@Sfx-o4mA positively venomous person.
@@Sfx-o4mshe needs to be more toxic. Shes gotten like 3 nerfs in a row? Maybe more. They nerfed her fuel a while ago, then her orb can’t pick up anymore, and now her mollies
@@r8tdviper doesn’t need buffs. she was insanely broken, when a character gets nerfed 3 times in a row it’s usually for a reason, viper was a better choice than any other controller/sentinel on almost every map. it’s the same with omen now, the smokes that fill the same role as omen, clove and astra are really weak compared to him. but i agree that instead of nerfing omen they should instead buff those two
@@fr4nky2 but they nerfed her too much. It’s the same as chamber when they nerfed him but they nerfed him into the ground and they realized it and then buffed him a little. I agree viper was broken before but she’s damn near unplayable now except on icebox. When was the last time omen got nerfed? lol. They’ve nerfed every controller except omen
bro cloves ranked win rate is already the best by far we do NOT need a buff
its not because of Clove's smoke though....its because of the aggressive playstyle clove provides
@@biggy7211 yea but she’s already so good buffing her would be like buffing prime chamber
@@strongpassword4827that’s not even comparable
its not because her kit is good its because her kit is so simple you dont need to think about what you're doing, and she can recharge her health. 90% of ranked duels are 1v1's so characters with health advantage typically will win more often (reyna, iso, clove).
@@strongpassword4827 that's a shitty comparison, buffing clove smokes won't change her already stupid playstyle in ranked. If you really feel that clove is fucking up ranked like reyna then nerf her self heal and ultimate, otherwise she's a horrible team orientated agent
I liked his ideas for Astra
clove is for when 4 of your team already picked their agent and the only remaining role to fill is smoker. it's for players that don't play smokes but they had to fill because they didn't lock their agent fast enough. lol
As a clove main, there's a couple things that irk me lol You can't ult while last alive unless the bomb is planted AND your on attacking side. Mettle feels like it should just be something else, it's a situationally very cool ability that let's you do some cool stuff BUT clove can't really capitalize off of it's use. Compared to other controller's, clove just isn't as good at "Controlling." and the Duelist aspects of the kit that they added aren't enough to let clove be good at that either.
who else didnt know you could brim stim gekko ult
You forget about harbor
I mean we kinda expected this issue when they first announced valorant on console.
Astra needs atleast one regenerating star again and make them cheap. She needs to be the jack knife across the map controller.
id say change the weapon equip time after pick me up to be the same as neon’s slide equip time
Wait until the riot decides to just remove Omen's smoke cooldown, so he's just worse. Therefore, "variety of choice".
and there are one way smokes only omen can pull off
Change medal to an actual blind that last 1.5 - 2 seconds then make her smoke last 13 seconds. One ways should be unique to omen but imo to make it less broken, riot should make the one way sit higher as a nerf, so it doesnt make it as OP
Meddle is actually really good if you pair it with team abilities like razes grenade.
yeah but like, Fade sieze and Deadlock net do that 1000% better and don't take Omen's slot
I miss when astra was part of the meta. I kept being a main astra even after the first few nerfs because she was just so satisfying to use, but they just ruined her kit. Before, she was hard to use because using her abilities required lots of thinking, now shes hard to use because shes useless.
I feel like the clove thing is the fact that clove can put pressure from other util like iso and vyse in a way. Like omen is a very good agent but i don't think it would be healthy for the game to nerf omen's paranoia mor his smokes and smokes in general
and then you pull up statistics and realise that Omen has a sub 50% wr in both ranked and pro play, the only rationale behind nerfing omen being "paranoia feels op and i love oneways"
yeah a mix between reyna and brimstone that smokes even when dead,which alsmot never happens cause she revive herself anyways is fair
But i still hope that omen doesnt get nerfed. Omen is fun to play as, fun to play with and fun to play against. They should buff some other controllers, though
Still waiting for the brim buff of 4th smoke or something
i actually fw this take, make it so cloves smokes last 12 seconds after death and alive its 16.5 sec or smthn, also pick me up heal should last longer no?
What I want for clove is a frag grenade like raze. Because oh my god...there have been so many games where non of my teammates who instalocked raze or sova broke common trip locations.
Brim has always been the best smokes agent imo. I play smokes and I pick him like 90% of the time, and the other 10% is either Omen or Viper.
Which sums to say, you cant please everyone and people will always complain no matter whatever the company does
because bro is literally forgetting the one thing clove does, smoke after death, so if her smoke timer is same as brim, sites would just be perma smoked off with no vison at all, being even worse than viper
Why would you need a longer smokes on clove when you have MORE smokes on clove? You go first and still use smokes, she should have 2 C-util though
for esport mabe the problem is that anything else then top rank and vct he isnt broken
just so u know the reason why clove smokes has such a short timer is because of how fast her smokes regen + she can drop max of 2 smokes after her death.
therefore bro is literally forgetting the one thing clove does, smoke after death, so if her smoke timer is same as brim, sites would just be perma smoked off with no vison at all, being even worse than viper
I think the problem with that might be to take their ults into consideration. You need to have balanced kits. Omens Base kit is stronger than cloves, but the cloves ultimate is just so much more powerfull and has way more impact. Omens ult is very situational and cloves ult is universal. If u were to buff cloves kit to be as strong as omens he would be completly outmached (My Opinion)
does he begin every statement with the same "alright honestly"
Omen is undeniably the best smokes agent for almost every map, obviously there’s maps like Breeze and Fracture and Icebox, but talking just ranked and not pro play, Omen is the pick almost every map
Do Pro's ever talk about Cypher and how bad he is for delaying enemies from taking site. That or just how bad Cypher is generally?
Unfortunately that'd just be a buff to Clove, which I don't mind because she's my second main, but I don't see the value in buffing an already strong character in ranked. In Pro matches, just keep using Omen.
just don't change my omen and nobody gets hurt.
Imagine if Valve own Valorant
Astra have unlimited stars, Brim have 2 Stim and Molly, Viper wall can be extended full map
Literally makes all agent Broken
It’s ironic cus I have the opposite opinion to tenz. Clove feels like solo q wet dream. A controller dualist hybrid that can still do their job if they die. As clove I want to be agro and go for kills. And if I die my team still has smokes. I can still place smokes to mind game if my teamate is rotating. The ult to come back is nice as a self res and also is useful for post plant stall. She feels like my go to for every solo q game and I’m always happy to have her. Other smokers have their uses but I’d take her over brim and even omen honestly any day. But I’m not in the higher ranks so it’s a different game in some ways
Tenz on a conference call looking ahh
imo get rid of being able to smoke while dead and maybe put that power budget somewhere else, not sure where i just think the smoking while dead is uninteresting and its not even that good anyway
Clove has the highest win rate of any agents across most, if not all elos. She doesn't need a buff.
I really hope they buff clove rather than nerfing Omen
the clove nerf was NOT NECESSARY to that point
I understand reducing the ult time
but why increase the price of the overheal?
and decrease its time too?
Increasing the price was def so that u can't buy it w/ a ghost on pistol
And yk just look at clove stats
A higher winrate for most players compared to every single agent in the game
@@thenomainman5499wdym can't buy it with ghost? you can still buy it with ghost and have 100 creds remaining
Because the overheal also grants movement speed which is pretty ridiculous.
@@thenomainman5499so you just have no util on pistol
@@wendigo374wdym no util? Does she not have smokes? Which is supposed to be her role? She’s not meant to be a Reyna with her overheal + brim stim on pistol round?
Meanwhile Harbor: Do they even know that I’m also in the game?
Harbors kit is good yall js don't know how to use him
Ive started to play him since the destruction of viper .
He is not as bad as i thought but its definetely not ooptimal to have only walls ( the cove get spammed by 2 guy and fade in 2sec)
@@yesyesyesyesyesyes2021people always say this but legitimately, pros are very rarely picking him.
He needs second Cove + faster throw speed so he can do Cove lineup for lurk smoke on other site
I used to pick him on Breeze/Pearl when I was just wanna have fun and not play always Viper on that map
@@yesyesyesyesyesyes2021all he does is smokes, Viper and Omen does everything Habor does but better
I get omen has a lot going for him, but that teleport goes 2 feet. Like I’m new but has it always been that way? That shit can’t be that good.
They nerfed viper so much that her smoke time and utility is only worth using as a secondary controller. Omen can do it all right now
in my humble bronze 2 opinion I don't think there should be revives and teleporting in a tactical shooter
Clove is insane in low to mid elo where team play is out of the window and people just aim duels like a fucking csgo match. Omen is broken if your team can follow suit but omen is being overshadowed by Clove in low elo like how reyna is better than jett or raze in low elo. Clove is even good in high rank in certain comp. I just want more solo sustainability for omen.
Astra needs a 5th star and a 3rd smoke charge
I genuinely don't understand how Clove has the best win rate out of all agents when she seems so mid at a glance. Meddle takes forever to throw & just seems really situational, her smokes are smokes (not much you can say about them) & she only gets one refresh, which is on a timer. Maybe it's the ult that makes her good idk. As I am new to Valorant (only been playing since the console beta) I don't know if Viper could originally pick up her smoke, but I really wish that was possible currently. I forgot that Harbor was a controller because he's so bad: his own water shouldn't slow him & it should do more than slow to prevent enemies brazenly pushing through.
clove can smoke after death, so as long as they die on site the team NEVER loses smokes
I’m nowhere near this guys level of skill but I just don’t agree. I think omens strongest point is his TP. The ability to shoot from one angle and immediately get a new angle is insane. Smokes are great tools and better used as long range blockers instead of smoking entry ways. Even using them for spike is good but I feel it’s more on how you use Omen. The blind only works if you know for sure they’re there unlike Reyna you have a wide range of use for her blinds. Clove should probably have an equal smoke to Omen but again as he said in the video… Cloves revive and afterlife smokes are really good.
the game can't be balanced around pro play alone, look at clove's ranked stats compared to omen a few patches ago. Clove had an absurd 16% delta over omen.
That’s why I’m saying buffing clove is a slippery slope. It really is just Reyna to be honest.
Because it’s a popular character
@@wendigo374 delta win rates
@@wendigo374 more people who plays a character usually means that your stats would plummet since "good players" are minorities. if she has the best winrate of any character and more delta than any controller that means she is so busted that even with more people playing her she is still the best controller. you proved his point.
Yup it's a bad idea to cater to pro players demands