That was an absolutely fantastic talk! Percussion is so ignored and misunderstood. Please, please do another 10 works soon. This series is unique, there is no other classical music commentary or critique like this series. So erudite, captivating and passionate. Thank you!
I immediately thought of "The Rite" and Cleveland, but with Boulez (1969). Ages ago I was told Boulez wanted an extra large tam-tam for that recording, and the orchestra had to rent one. True or not, it still works a treat.
I doubt that it's true. Around this time, when dealing with a big tam-tam part (and a conductor OTHER than Szell), the Cleveland Orchestra used its two, big, old Paiste Tam-tams, with the bright, splashy sound that you hear in Boulez's "Rite." Percussionist Joe Adato would set up the 2 tams facing each other and stand in between them, striking BOTH of them in unison for a big sound. I saw Adato do it in a Leinsdorf Mahler 4th (1st Mvt) and sat onstage (in the chorus) 10 feet away from him for the Shostakovich 13th (April,'71). I just checked Boulez's Rite, and I'm sure that's what they did for the recording. LR
Hi Dave. Great choices. With regard to ideophones in the orchestra, I think one passage that really works is the opening of Vaughan Williams' 8th, with the vibraphone, joined by glockenspiel and flute. It creates an amazing, mysterious world that is soon literally swept away by the violins. It's one of my favorite openings of a symphony.
I love the Macbeth pick, also an often undeservedly overlooked Strauss work. Also, the Haitink Babi Yar is shattering + one of my main go to hi fi demonstration discs! That whole Haitink Decca series had tremendously excellent sound & detailed, powerful percussion. Another percussion personal fave is a Gibson/SNO compilation of Scottish themed music on Chandos ("Land of the Mountain & Flood"), particularly the Malcolm Arnold "Tam O'Shanter" piece. Chailly's Varese Decca compilation offers great percussion sound too.
That "PInes' with Reiner is amazing - especially those tam-tam crashes at the end of "The Pines of the Appian Way". No other recording that I know of bring them out like that. It's thrilling.
I remember a recording of The Rite Of Spring by the Boston Symphony Orchestra conducted by Michael Tilson Thomas with exacting timpani playing by the late great Vic Firth. I had some Vic Firth timpani mallets with my favourite was his cartwheel legato mallets. I also was a fan of Donald Koss who was the Solo Timpanist of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Although hardly "traditional",I immediately thought of the Bizet Carmen ballet arranged by Shchedrin recorded by Arthur Fiedler and the Boston Pops! Allof that percussion in the marvelous Symphony Hall acoustics!! Simply out of sight!!
I was surprised to hear tam tam strokes at the beginning of Herold's Zampa Overture in Richard Bonynge's LSO recording. Certainly, I haven't noticed this in any other recording of Zampa.
I concur with others about Telarc's bass drum sound- it's thrilling and unique. But I found this by accident: Respighi's Roman Festivals on Naxos wit Batiz and the Royal Philharmonic. OMG! It's a tamtam extravaganza! You gotta hear it!
Very fun. You make me think of lots of recordings I've forgotten. Like, what about those trash can lids at the end of Abravanel's Mahler Eighth! My friend and I use to laugh at this. What about Reiner's Mahler 4? The first movement is apocalyptic! Loved many of the recordings you mention. Especially the Nevsky! Wow!
Your mention of Vic Firth and ‘musicality’ reminds me of the wonderful young jazz drummer Takashi Kuge. He plays his Vic Firth sticks, brushes and mallets in a truly symbiotic piano trio led by Berklee trained Yuka Yanagihara on the Osaka Jazz Channel. Great fun, wonderful musicality, terrific jazz, superb drumming. 20 ‘tracks’ performed live in an intimate setting and excellently filmed and recorded. Do try! Mildred will love it!
As soon as you started this series with brass, I thought, "Ozawa's Ma mère needs to be on the woodwinds list." Thanks for including it here, & you're precisely right. The percussion everywhere, but especially in Laideronnette, is exquisite. This is a great list. I had hoped that Feste romane would be on it, but on thinking, Pines is probably a better choice since there's more range in what the percussionists are asked to do. Looking forward to the rest!
Would love to see/hear one of your Italian tam-tams on camera. I've always wondered about the unique sound of the Concertgebouw's big tam on that 1969 Mahler 2nd. The fact that you can hear every note of the part is the only reason I kept that recording on the shelf for as long as I did. LR
Great list as always Dave. If i may, i think Celibidache's Bruckner 8 (the one in Japan) deserve a mention. oh the TIMPANI there is just one of the best ever! But i think that's more on Peter Sadlo (the timpanist) than Celi, haha. On another note, yet again you mentioned your love of Gamelan. Can you please make a video about gamelan influenced pieces? Thanks Dave!
Charles Mackerras two recordings of Sibelius 2 feature extra timpani parts at the conclusion. Writing to him about this he confirmed that it was either Toscanini or Koussevitsky who suggested to the great composer that it sounded right and Sibelius agreed. Mackerras used this version in a concert I attended with the Philharmonia and the great Andy "Thumper" Smith on timps. The conductor had the instruments front centre stage next to him and Thumper let iit go. What a spectacle! Salonen has gone on record as saying the timpanist is the most important player in the orchestra and who can argue with that.
I’d love a percussionist’s thoughts on Andriessen’s De Tijd by the Schoenberg Ensemble conducted by Reinbert de Leeuw. Are you by chance familiar with this one, Mr. Hurwitz?
Colin Davis and Concertgebouw again, the bells in last movement in the first recording of the Symphonie Fantastique give me chills , they are so terrifying. What a sound!
I think timpani comes a bit closer to being able to tell different players than some of the other percussion instruments, though I wouldn't guarantee I always could in many full orchestra recordings. For me, David Herbert tends to stand out as a favorite, ever since his SFS days but now in Chicago. His style is typically a bit crisper than most other timpanists, to my ears. A delightfully inventive percussionist that I enjoy (outside of the usual orchestral parts) is Gene Koshinski.
I always found the bass drum in Robert Shaw's Telarc recording of the Verdi Requiem (Dies Irae) to be expressive: DOOM (for the souls of the damned, but most of all your speaker cones) 🤣
Overall agreed with you, of course. But, as far as the "Rite of Spring", I prefer Neeme Järvi and the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande. Although Chailly's recording overall my be better, Järvi 'Sacificial dance' is a jam session!
You may not. I have a whole playlist on this channel about band music, and have discussed brass bands extensively both here and on ClassicsToday.com, including The President's Own.
What was the recording date of the Ormandy recording? Is it the stereo recording that's in that 20th Century box that you didn't like? (the box, I mean).
Speaking of the Chicago Symphony tam-tam, I've always noticed it sounded very much like the instrument used by the NBC Symphony- Very "crashy" with a quick decay. Dave, do you have any info on those 2 instruments or where the NBC Symphony one went?
The CSO's Tam was quite small. I remember hearing a Mahler 2nd with Solti in April, '69. The stage was so crowded that the player (AND the instrument) stood in a small doorway that lead offstage. That, combined with the relatively small instrument (AND its quick decay, as you point out), rendered it all-but inaudible. Very disappointing. ALSO--- the New York Phil also used a very similar Tam-tam (like NBC, as you mention) during their "glory" years. About 15 years ago, Maazel and NY came to Chicago to perform Mahler 5. I asked one of the percussionists about their "legendary" Tam-tam; he pointed to it and said "there it is; that's the one we've used since at least the 50's." And it was SMALL (!)...just like the CSO's old one, with the same sound. LR
So much tam-tam writing of the first half of the 20th century makes so much more sense on a small, crashy instrument. Most notably the Gershwin Piano Concerto, Prokofeiff's Nevsky, Le Sacre, Pines and Feste Romane and more. @@HassoBenSoba
@@HassoBenSoba. Solti’s M6 recording is pretty effective tam-tam wise; but at the Fifth Symphony’s 2nd movement climax (at least on LP) you can hear the engineers drastically twiddle down the knobs at the big crash.
I was asking because my father was in the New York Philharmonic as an extra percussionist. He studied under Saul Goodman and Buster Bailey.@@DavesClassicalGuide
![Stromae, Pomme - “Ma Meilleure Ennemie” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1F3OGIFnW1k/mqdefault.jpg)
I love to hear you singing' great melodies , and performing the percussion parts, too. The music comes to life, then.
That was an absolutely fantastic talk! Percussion is so ignored and misunderstood. Please, please do another 10 works soon.
This series is unique, there is no other classical music commentary or critique like this series. So erudite, captivating and passionate. Thank you!
I immediately thought of "The Rite" and Cleveland, but with Boulez (1969). Ages ago I was told Boulez wanted an extra large tam-tam for that recording, and the orchestra had to rent one. True or not, it still works a treat.
I doubt that it's true. Around this time, when dealing with a big tam-tam part (and a conductor OTHER than Szell), the Cleveland Orchestra used its two, big, old Paiste Tam-tams, with the bright, splashy sound that you hear in Boulez's "Rite." Percussionist Joe Adato would set up the 2 tams facing each other and stand in between them, striking BOTH of them in unison for a big sound. I saw Adato do it in a Leinsdorf Mahler 4th (1st Mvt) and sat onstage (in the chorus) 10 feet away from him for the Shostakovich 13th (April,'71). I just checked Boulez's Rite, and I'm sure that's what they did for the recording. LR
Hi Dave. Great choices.
With regard to ideophones in the orchestra, I think one passage that really works is the opening of Vaughan Williams' 8th, with the vibraphone, joined by glockenspiel and flute. It creates an amazing, mysterious world that is soon literally swept away by the violins. It's one of my favorite openings of a symphony.
I love the Macbeth pick, also an often undeservedly overlooked Strauss work. Also, the Haitink Babi Yar is shattering + one of my main go to hi fi demonstration discs! That whole Haitink Decca series had tremendously excellent sound & detailed, powerful percussion. Another percussion personal fave is a Gibson/SNO compilation of Scottish themed music on Chandos ("Land of the Mountain & Flood"), particularly the Malcolm Arnold "Tam O'Shanter" piece. Chailly's Varese Decca compilation offers great percussion sound too.
That "PInes' with Reiner is amazing - especially those tam-tam crashes at the end of "The Pines of the Appian Way". No other recording that I know of bring them out like that. It's thrilling.
I remember a recording of The Rite Of Spring by the Boston Symphony Orchestra conducted by Michael Tilson Thomas with exacting timpani playing by the late great Vic Firth. I had some Vic Firth timpani mallets with my favourite was his cartwheel legato mallets. I also was a fan of Donald Koss who was the Solo Timpanist of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Although hardly "traditional",I immediately thought of the Bizet Carmen ballet arranged by Shchedrin recorded by Arthur Fiedler and the Boston Pops! Allof that percussion in the marvelous Symphony Hall acoustics!! Simply out of sight!!
I was surprised to hear tam tam strokes at the beginning of Herold's Zampa Overture in Richard Bonynge's LSO recording. Certainly, I haven't noticed this in any other recording of Zampa.
YES YES YES YES YES THANK YOU DAVE ❤❤❤❤
I concur with others about Telarc's bass drum sound- it's thrilling and unique. But I found this by accident: Respighi's Roman Festivals on Naxos wit Batiz and the Royal Philharmonic.
OMG! It's a tamtam extravaganza! You gotta hear it!
Did you know that the 1969 Boulez Rite with Cleveland was done in ONE take! Got that bit of info from Cloyd Duff the timpanist at the time.
Very fun. You make me think of lots of recordings I've forgotten. Like, what about those trash can lids at the end of Abravanel's Mahler Eighth! My friend and I use to laugh at this. What about Reiner's Mahler 4? The first movement is apocalyptic! Loved many of the recordings you mention. Especially the Nevsky! Wow!
Your mention of Vic Firth and ‘musicality’ reminds me of the wonderful young jazz drummer Takashi Kuge. He plays his Vic Firth sticks, brushes and mallets in a truly symbiotic piano trio led by Berklee trained Yuka Yanagihara on the Osaka Jazz Channel. Great fun, wonderful musicality, terrific jazz, superb drumming. 20 ‘tracks’ performed live in an intimate setting and excellently filmed and recorded. Do try! Mildred will love it!
A Best Tympani video as an adjunct to this? My vote would got to the tympani in the opening of the ‘73 Karajan “Also sprach”… such great impact.
Go Vic!!!
As soon as you started this series with brass, I thought, "Ozawa's Ma mère needs to be on the woodwinds list." Thanks for including it here, & you're precisely right. The percussion everywhere, but especially in Laideronnette, is exquisite.
This is a great list. I had hoped that Feste romane would be on it, but on thinking, Pines is probably a better choice since there's more range in what the percussionists are asked to do. Looking forward to the rest!
Would love to see/hear one of your Italian tam-tams on camera. I've always wondered about the unique sound of the Concertgebouw's big tam on that 1969 Mahler 2nd. The fact that you can hear every note of the part is the only reason I kept that recording on the shelf for as long as I did. LR
Great list as always Dave. If i may, i think Celibidache's Bruckner 8 (the one in Japan) deserve a mention. oh the TIMPANI there is just one of the best ever! But i think that's more on Peter Sadlo (the timpanist) than Celi, haha.
On another note, yet again you mentioned your love of Gamelan. Can you please make a video about gamelan influenced pieces? Thanks Dave!
I'd add to this list Peter Serkin's old recording of Bartok one with Ozawa and Chicago. really expressive and impactful
Charles Mackerras two recordings of Sibelius 2 feature extra timpani parts at the conclusion. Writing to him about this he confirmed that it was either Toscanini or Koussevitsky who suggested to the great composer that it sounded right and Sibelius agreed. Mackerras used this version in a concert I attended with the Philharmonia and the great Andy "Thumper" Smith on timps. The conductor had the instruments front centre stage next to him and Thumper let iit go. What a spectacle! Salonen has gone on record as saying the timpanist is the most important player in the orchestra and who can argue with that.
Thanks!
Thank you!
You maybe would expect a tam-tam to break during Pictures at an Exhibition or The Pines of Rome, but....La Mer?
I’d love a percussionist’s thoughts on Andriessen’s De Tijd by the Schoenberg Ensemble conducted by Reinbert de Leeuw. Are you by chance familiar with this one, Mr. Hurwitz?
Colin Davis and Concertgebouw again, the bells in last movement in the first recording of the Symphonie Fantastique give me chills , they are so terrifying. What a sound!
Amazing Dave, are we getting string/woodwind section videos too? :D
I think timpani comes a bit closer to being able to tell different players than some of the other percussion instruments, though I wouldn't guarantee I always could in many full orchestra recordings. For me, David Herbert tends to stand out as a favorite, ever since his SFS days but now in Chicago. His style is typically a bit crisper than most other timpanists, to my ears. A delightfully inventive percussionist that I enjoy (outside of the usual orchestral parts) is Gene Koshinski.
I always found the bass drum in Robert Shaw's Telarc recording of the Verdi Requiem (Dies Irae) to be expressive: DOOM (for the souls of the damned, but most of all your speaker cones) 🤣
Overall agreed with you, of course. But, as far as the "Rite of Spring", I prefer Neeme Järvi and the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande. Although Chailly's recording overall my be better, Järvi 'Sacificial dance' is a jam session!
If I may, I'd like to recommend listening to actual brass bands like The President's Own. They really hit the spot
You may not. I have a whole playlist on this channel about band music, and have discussed brass bands extensively both here and on ClassicsToday.com, including The President's Own.
What was the recording date of the Ormandy recording? Is it the stereo recording that's in that 20th Century box that you didn't like? (the box, I mean).
Talking about percussion without sitting in front of your tam-tam!?
How do you break a tam-tam? What the hell were they hitting it with?
Speaking of the Chicago Symphony tam-tam, I've always noticed it sounded very much like the instrument used by the NBC Symphony- Very "crashy" with a quick decay. Dave, do you have any info on those 2 instruments or where the NBC Symphony one went?
I don't.
The CSO's Tam was quite small. I remember hearing a Mahler 2nd with Solti in April, '69. The stage was so crowded that the player (AND the instrument) stood in a small doorway that lead offstage. That, combined with the relatively small instrument (AND its quick decay, as you point out), rendered it all-but inaudible. Very disappointing. ALSO--- the New York Phil also used a very similar Tam-tam (like NBC, as you mention) during their "glory" years. About 15 years ago, Maazel and NY came to Chicago to perform Mahler 5. I asked one of the percussionists about their "legendary" Tam-tam; he pointed to it and said "there it is; that's the one we've used since at least the 50's." And it was SMALL (!)...just like the CSO's old one, with the same sound. LR
So much tam-tam writing of the first half of the 20th century makes so much more sense on a small, crashy instrument. Most notably the Gershwin Piano Concerto, Prokofeiff's Nevsky, Le Sacre, Pines and Feste Romane and more. @@HassoBenSoba
@@HassoBenSoba. Solti’s M6 recording is pretty effective tam-tam wise; but at the Fifth Symphony’s 2nd movement climax (at least on LP) you can hear the engineers drastically twiddle down the knobs at the big crash.
Did you know my father Michael Aaronson?
No, I didn't. Did you know my father, Lew Hurwitz? Sorry, I couldn't resist....
I was asking because my father was in the New York Philharmonic as an extra percussionist. He studied under Saul Goodman and Buster Bailey.@@DavesClassicalGuide
The mighty Tam-Tam.... "just".... makes "noise"...? Blasphemy