Zee is right at 34:17, King of Tokyo is not a take that game because you can't specifically target one player. Gotta love Tom's intellectual honesty in dealing with this though!
+Marco Schaub Technically, if only one monster is in Tokyo, you can specifically target it rather easily...especially up to four players, when only one monster can be in Tokyo at a time.
+Sam Healey Yes, but this is a special case, not a general case. I can attack you specifically *if and only if* you're in Tokyo. Also, if you don't roll any claws when attacking, you can't hurt the player in Tokyo at all. There are a few cards that change that, but that is a special case as well.
Marco Schaub But that's not even counting all the cards that can be played against the person of your choice that are in the game, too. It isn't a *pure* take that game, but the element is definitely there.
+Sam Healey There are 70+ cards in the game (including some promos) and there are only three that could be considered take that cards, and even those are soft take that cards: *Parasitic Tentacles*, which lets you purchase cards from other players *Unstable DNA*, take lets you steal a card from another player if you yield Tokyo, but you have to give him this card *Healing Ray*, which lets you heal other monsters and they have to pay 2 Energy to you All the other attack cards do not target anyone specifically. What cards were you thinking of?
Marco Schaub I didn't say how strongly they were there, just that they were...why is this such a big deal for you? The list was games that have a "take that" element to them...I think KoT qualifies. If my being wrong will help, okay, I'm wrong. I'm just saying that, while it may register lowly on the "take-that-o-meter", it does still register.
I don't quite understand why games like Bang, Rum&Bones and so on are on the list. Those games are meant to be games where you eliminate players and fight others. If games like this are on a list you could easily add Magic or any war game on a list. I would classify take that games as games, where eliminating others is not the goal, but you can hit others if it benefits you. Games where you are for example trying to do your own thing to get victory points, or what ever and you can also sabotage others. Like Alien Frontiers where you are trying to colonize the planet but you can, if you want, destroy other players ships or take cards from them. It's not goal of the game but it helps you.
+C r s Yeees, thumb up for definition...This is the right definition of take that games and I'm just disappointed that the dice tower probably has a different interpretation of those games genre.
Survive! has been one of my favorite board games since playing the original in the '80's as a teen, and now I play it with my teens. Awesome take that game!
I think to some degree Sam seems to have construed any game where you do something to compete with other players as a "take that" game, which is a sufficiently broad interpretation to render the term moot. Is a war game where you attack another player's army "take that"? Is a worker-placement game where you can block others out of a spot "take that"? Seems like you should iron out the definition before composing lists.
Well, then what is the definition of a "take that" game? Does it have to be more than 2 players? Some two player games can have very mean competition that you can call them "take that". But i guess in this episode the emphasis was on throwing a card on someone to make him lose a piece, a point, a turn. When i was thinking about Tokaido with blocking other players (especially the 2 players variant) or Tom reminded me about Pompeii when he was talking about Survive. You have to do this anyway, but sometimes it can be mean. I can also call Magic a constant take that game :) What? You wanted to play that spell? Well, you don't! Oh, you've summoned that creature? Now sacrifice it! :)
+wr00t I think a key component is that "gotcha" element where you don't know at any given time whether you'll be messed with or not. In Cutthroat Caverns, you *might* finish off the monster, but then again someone might step in and mess with you. That's a big difference from two armies inexorably crashing into each other.
+Steve Gale I really like Sam's style and choice in games. However he tends to do that with every category. His science fiction list was all over the place.
+C. Prusse (Kaylore14) Yeah, the rules being broken here are implicit, not explicit. That's chiefly because they *don't* agree on their definitions before they do the list, and they don't bounce their choices off of anyone prior to air time.
+C. Prusse (Kaylore14) Sam Healey is the Chuck Norris of The Dice tower : you can't decree the meaning of a category to Sam Healey ! The category goes to see Sam Healey and ask him to define its meaning.
From the games that i own probably only Saboteur qualifies the most for this, when you can brake tools for other players (somewhat similarly to the Bang game sometimes hurting your teammates, but in this game it is not the main point of the game).
This seemed like such a counterintuitive list. "Our top 10 games of a mechanic we generally don't like." Nearly everything's qualified by a "it's take that but I don't hate it"
+Eric Odenheimer Well, here's their dilemma: Top 10 are the most sure-fire click-grabber on RUclips, and the Dice Tower is no exception, but there is only so many top 10 lists you can do in this hobby, particularly given that even collectively there are still a lot of game tastes unrepresented by Sam, Tom, and Zee.
Still, there's many better Top Tens they could do. I've already sent them this request in a message, but I'd LOVE to see them do a Top Ten list of games with the best art
+Eric Odenheimer I find them quite helpful though. If you can have three guys, who generally aren't that into a genre, recommend a game from that genre, then I can assume it's probably worth a try. I generally prefer Euro style games, but wasn't really sure where I should go after the initial Catan/Carcassonne introduction. The fact that Sam, who by his own admission is NOT a Euro fan, recommended Stone Age so highly meant that I gave it a go (and I still love it).
King of New York feels like a 'take that' when you notice a monster has enough units round them that 3 ouchie's would kill them, so rather than go for points you trigger the ouchies instead...
Settlers of Catan is a take that game. That robber is not only the most common roll, but it is the mechanism to bust up cornering the market on a resource, slowing down others when you are in last place, and the only part of the game that takes it from a friendly, Ticket To Ride type competition to setting players against each other and making someone say "OK you keep robbing me, I don't care if I win, I'm taking your longest road.
The only co-op game that I could think of that has a take that element would be Battlestar Galactica. The times in the game when you may put someone in the brig, take the presidency/Admiral, reveal as a cyclon/play a super crisis card. The theme of the the game and suspense when played well, I feel plays down the take that element, but in a good way.
I know it's not everyone's favorite, but SmileyFace should get an honorable mention in this list in my opinion. I really would love a top 10 meanest games in the near future, which probably is a more applicable list for SmileyFace to be on. Another list I'd love to see ya'll do in the future would be a top 10 card drafting games.
My guesses for this list (before it started) are: Lifeboats, Survive!, and Pompeii. (RoboRally and the Intrigue expansion for Dominion are particularly nefarious as well, but I don't think either made their lists. And let's not forget Catan with the robber, as well as placing a road/settlement to block another player.) I also did not include MtG, because the whole purpose of that 2-player precisely to attack and counter/defend. After viewing, my guesses placed: Lifeboats: not mentioned Survive!: 5 (Tom) Pompeii: not mentioned Other reactions: 6:10 - Ugh! I didn't think of Bang! The Dice Game! That's an awesome one and our gaming groups - both family and friends - always enjoy, in spite of the "take that" element, probably because each game is so fast. 14:25 - Wish I'd thought of Black Fleet... just bought that for the kids for Christmas. I hope there aren't too many tears... (I mean when they sink my ship and steal my cargo!) 17:52 - Cash & Guns is definitely "take that", and again, so loved by our gaming groups. Something about pointing foam guns at family members between Thanksgiving and Christmas... 34:40 - looks like Dominion (and my Intrigue expansion) almost made the list... they kinda have to work on defining the difference between "take that" and "confrontation" games. 45:29 - mention of MtG... funny!
Citadels: the Assassin, the Thief, and the Warlord, maybe even the Magician. 4 of the 8 available roles to select target someone else. If you're not hitting someone with a "take that" then you're at least trying to out-think an opponent who might be targeting you! Bonus points of course because the game is solid and arguably an "evergreen" at this point. It's fairly easy to learn too. I remember this blowing my mind when I first encountered the "rock paper scissor" endless spiral of thought the game entails. "If I pick this then he'll pick this but if he knows I know that then he might think I'll pick this so then he'll pick this..."
Black Fleet is an awesome family game,and yes,there is a LOT of 'take that' but it's fun and never dooms the other player. Production value is incredible too,just a beautiful game,right up there with Jamaica.
Arcadia Quest. It has pvp but also pve quests. Lots of take that opportunity, especially in Beyond the grave exp. Pushing a monster in the path of someone, "just cauz", or preventing someone from accomplishing a quest just to be mean is fun. So is giving every other player 1 gold when a monster kills someone. Finishing up a monster another guild did most of the work on... etc.
Just because Zee asked for it... 10) Guillotine (Pretty much nothing but take-that) 9) Settlers of Catan (Because of the Robber and Knights) 8) Street Fighter Deck Building Game (WAY more attacks than DC) 7) Pirates vs. Dinosaurs (Second phase of the game has tons of it) 6) Hot Rod Creeps (Nothing but take-that) 5) Alien Frontiers (Tech Cards) 4) Lords of Waterdeep (Intrigue Cards) 3) Good Cop, Bad Cop (Equipment Cards, shooting each other) 2) Smash Up (Nothing but take-that) 1) Unexploded Cow (Nothing but take-that) Surprised Tom didn't include Killer Bunnies. I was sure that would have been in his top 3.
Yay so happy Seasons finally made a top 10!! And also I agree that it's very "take that", I've been in so many games where some of my friends whole strategy is just to draft all the take that/ troll cards and cripple everyone else, it can be very unforgiving, especially when they are stealing a few crystals from you every turn (and they are gaining several crystals every round).
I would say Zombies!!! is a 'take that' game in a similar way to Colt Express. It has some nasty cards in there to use on other people especially once the helicopter pad has been revealed but it is such a fun game that you don't mind being nasty to each other. When I've explained it to people I have told them that it is a game to be nasty to each other because there is equal chances to get back at each other. And the added fact that taking over someone elses character and moving them through a hoard of zombies can help them as killing zombies can win you the game there is a 'take that' back feel when you've been moved through 6zombies and you've killed them all without taking a hit.
I have played boomtown dozens of times and I had never really considered it a "take that game". There are components that were mentioned that have a take that mentality. I am glad to see that it has made it on the list, however. It is a fun light social game that I do not think gets the attention it deserves.
I feel like you guys need to redo this video. Way too many debatable choices on your lists. Maybe use BGG's definition of the mechanism as a guideline: "Maneuvers that directly attack an opposing player's strength, level, life points or do something to impede their progress, while usually providing the main engine for player interaction [and] where single unforeseen card plays can cause huge swings in player progress or power." One other characteristic that I feel distinguishes Take That games from other confrontational games is that there is no strategy involved in being able to lash out at an opponent. Wargames, for example, require that you move into position to take and hold territory, so even if you are able to attack an opponent it isn't an action that feels arbitrary or malicious.
Funny story about Survive: I was playing with my wife and a friend and everybody was being super-nice. Weeell, I knew that couldn't last, so I rushed all my most valuable men to the shore and in the late game things started to get more mean, but I had already won. Muhahaha!
+Daniel Engel I'm not sure it really is a "Take That" since it requires (minus the captain cards) a group to vote someone off the boat or spring a leak. To me, Take That means one person playing a card or taking an action to thwart someone else. Though, I see your point. It can be awfully mean :) It is one of my favorite games.
Yeah, Lifeboats! Also: Discworld: Ankh-Morpork. And there's should be a honorable mention for Munchkin since this game introduce gaming to a lot of people!
The comments seem to show a lot of people not fully understanding the "Take That" mechanic. Just doing something bad to another player isn't "Take That". "Take That" mechanics are those that *block* other players plans in some way, without giving a *direct* benefit to you. Things like increasing the monster level in Munchkin, countering spells in Magic the Gathering, playing a "lose a turn" card on someone, or just anything where a player says "I'm going to do X" and you pull out a surprise block. Stealing resources, dealing damage, applying status effects, taking something first, etc., are *not* examples of "Take That". Something that directly benefits you and coincidentally, incidentally, secondarily, or accidentally prevents a player from doing what they want is *not* "Take That".
I found the debate over King of Tokyo interesting as I see that as somewhat of a "take that" style game too. Would be interested to see a top 10 list for "confrontation" games and how they differ from "take that" games.
Regarding King of Tokyo/King of New York ... When you play with the Power Up expansion, the individual monsters have abilities which allow them to target individual players. The King is a good example.
Hey guys. Brand new subscriber and new to RPG board games. Binge watching your vids to get a sense of whats out there. Thanks for the entertaining and informative vids. Question- how many hats does Tom have? Seems like all the vids of yours I've seen thus far he's sporting a different one. Keep up the good work. I'm finding out a lot about this new world from your channel. ;)
Dead man's Draw would be my number 1. I generally don't like games like this, but it is hilarious to get hit by another player, then watch them bust. It's my number 1 beginner game for non gamers.
I'm not convinced that a two player/two team game (Rum & Bones, or one that you don't really know who you're going to hit when you do it (Colt Express) can really qualify as Take That, for the same reason that Zee doesn't think that games with 'hit everyone' are (Which I agree with) - They're not really targeted meanness which for me Take That has to be to be Take That. I think my #1 would have been Dominant Species for this category. Only just scraping in there as Take That for me, but the Compete action, to a lesser extent the Glaciation action, and especially the Dominance card where you can set off a Volcano underneath someone's feet. If it wasn't for the fact it's a 4-6 hour game, I'd have thought it was the game Zee was describing as a Take That Euro when he was introducing Moai.
I would've put Tammany Hall on there. It's area control, but it is one of the meanest ones out there. On a side note, I figured Cutthroat Caverns would be on there. It's the definitive "take that" game. I actually thought Tom would put it at 1, but it makes sense he chose Smash Up instead. I probably would put Guillotine, but I figure since they don't like put "take that" games, that's probably why it isn't there.
Apparently no one has played 'Bootleggers'. I always need to tell people before playing that 80 percent of the cards are very mean to make sure they can bear the tough business including actual extortion and other vicious ways of ruining each others business. Some real good heartfelt revenge too.
Is next week Top 10 Take That Elimination Games? Sounds like Zee has a list ready. Perhaps an upcoming list will be Top 10 Take That Elements versus Top 10 Take That Games.
Descent has small elements of take that with the Overlord cards, though I wouldn't consider it a take that game. I think a game primarily has to be take-that to be on this list in a meaningful way, but I agree with Sam that it is a mechanic best used as a component to a bigger experience. When it is simple take-that hand management, it usually feels spiteful for no good reason, or drawn out like Munchkin and Spartacus. Abraca...what? is probably my favorite take that game so far. Citadels is a close second.
Quite a few games I own were mentioned here though that surprised me as I wouldn't say it's a mechanism that I find particularly appealing, at least, conceptually. But I'm beginning to wonder if ANY conflict in ANY game could be characterized as a "take that" in some form if someone really wanted to argue it. I've played Survive for years but never thought of it as a "take that" or particularly "mean." Maybe it's because what happens fits the theme well enough. But that said, over time, Survive has worn a bit thin. And while "co-op" games aren't usually considered in this category-- I've also begun to wonder if co-op games, despite their apparent attempt to be "nicer" with less conflict, may not be nearly as nice as they are thought to be-- especially if you have some people who might take the game too seriously and you end up with some after-game effects-- the "you lost the game for us" sort of thing, or potentially someone could build up a reputation of being a handicap rather than a benefit. At least, "take that" is up front about it, and I would think is less likely to have more lasting effects. With conflict in games, there's a "you mess with me and I mess with you" dynamic, but it all seems to for the most part, wash out in the end. But co-op games where regardless of whether there's a win or not, I wonder if some players could end up perceived as less equal than others. Reminds me of the sports games as a kid where you pick teams, and the kids who weren't considered very good always got picked last, which made it even worse for them. One game that's been big in my gaming group is Tobago, which doesn't really have a "take that" and actually, has some co-op elements in that you share in the treasures, everyone can get a piece of the action. There's some "common goal" element but its still ultimately, a competition. Another favorite is Bohnanza, where the trading mechanism has some of that going for it as well-- mutual benefit. I'm wondering what the list would look like of other games which are essentially competitive, but where there are some shared interest characteristic-- that's a dynamic that seems to be a big hit with my crew. Maybe a top 10 list of "Non co-op games with shared interests/common goals."
Have been waiting for this top 10 list. Hmm 'take that' games? Well, first of all, I would never put any partygame (Bang! the dice game / Cash 'n Guns) on this list. It just doesn't fit the 'take that' mentality. Then there is this: You can play a game in two ways: just for fun/laughs or you can play it cutthroat/competitive/fanatical. If you play Munchkin just for the silliness, it can be a blast! But if you play it to win, no matter what? Guess what, it is less fun! At least for one of the players ;-) Some great 'take that' games imho are: Gigantoskop's 'Spank the monkey' (special attacks on other people's towers) and 'Badabooom!' (tinkering with the bomb and playing special cards) are great examples. Also Wasbabi (action cards and tile-blocking), Drakon (special effect tile-laying/blocking) and Gloom (playing positive cards on other peoples families) are great fun, when played light heartedly... Put that in you dictionary Tom! Take That!! LOL
I wonder if Resistance would be ok. Sure there is not cards as such but the lying gives that feel from time to time. I remember one case where played 3 rounds of Resistance and afterwards Cutthroat Caverns. I can honestly there was some extra stabbing after those Resistance games. Last room being the Hate and two of us played 100 crit for the card to give it the attacks as the players coudn't win anymore, so it was total partywipe :).
I would put Spartacus on the list. Great game and the intrigue phase and use of schemes has a very "take that" feel to it. Especially with how you may need to collaborate with others to target the lead dominus.
1830 has a strong take that element. I played that token there, take that. I trashed your stock, take that. I trashed the Penn RR and dumped it on you, take that. I played the penalty track play to shut you out of NY. Take that.
Surprised Tom put Seasons in there and not Innovation. Also thought Zee would pick Jambo but they did explain why it wouldn't qualify. Got my other 3 guesses though (Black Fleet, Survive, Revolution). And kicked myself at Cash n Guns and Cutthroat Caverns :D
We Didn't Playtest This At All. There's just nothing like playing a 'Spite' when somebody wins, or calling them out for breaking one of the rules when they come up. It's also one of the few games where you can easily accidentally 'take that' yourself if you aren't paying attention. Blisteringly fast to play, so the losses don't hurt too badly, but everyone still gets long enough to laugh about how a round ended. Good times.
What, no Munchkin? I mean, fair enough... if you don't like it :) I got sick of it really really quickly because of the "take that" mechanism, it just made the games way way way too long... everyone just sitting at level 9, and failing to win because everyone else would make it impossible for them to do so.
I think I would go Bang! the card game over the dice game because it feels like you have more control over your decision. Shogun maybe but it's war aspect is suspect to me. I think "take that" should be an action you can take when it doesn't benefit you what so ever and yet makes the game fun. I usually call it the grudge action because people usually lose there cool and have to get that person back. Small world again to me can do that but like shogun doesn't feel like I can say that. Maybe Xia: Legend of a Drift System. Batman Gotham City stratagy game..... I really cant think of any non-area control games that they didn't say already.
2 games I considered big 'take that!' games that are missing from that list are Coup and Spartacus. In my opinion they definitely should have replace a few games from their list...
+Aaron Sanchez-Serrano yes but they are not core to the gameplay: You can perfectly well play LoW without the mandatory quests in the intrigue deck. Especially if playing with the expansions.
+Ronaldo Baptista I thought about Lords of Waterdeep but most of the Take That cards aren't too aggressive (even mandatory quests earn the person a few points for completing them) and most of the game is relatively passive or even using cards that help both you and another player. So while it's got some Take That in the game I don't think it has enough of it to be something for this list. (Compared to Smash Up for example which is constantly using cards to unexpectedly mess up another player.)
I don’t know but… somehow I didn’t get the feel that most of the games you guys mentioned where actually “take-that” games. But it is nothing to worry about!
+Jason Hartgrave I guess they didn't include HEX HEX, because it's pure take that while they said their lists are composed of games that include take that but are not only that...HEX HEX is great tho I love it :D
+FC Raymo Reroll My Fire, Could We Play Magic Now?, It Only Takes A Minute Girl (To Teach The Rules). My favourite Take That game is this one: www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-Singstar-Take-That-PS3/dp/B002C73UVA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1444347962&sr=8-1&keywords=take+that+singstar
Ticket to Ride can be rather nasty. If you realise someone is building a specific route, you can block them by taking a key route even if you don't need that route yourself.
Zee is right at 34:17, King of Tokyo is not a take that game because you can't specifically target one player. Gotta love Tom's intellectual honesty in dealing with this though!
+Marco Schaub Technically, if only one monster is in Tokyo, you can specifically target it rather easily...especially up to four players, when only one monster can be in Tokyo at a time.
+Sam Healey Yes, but this is a special case, not a general case. I can attack you specifically *if and only if* you're in Tokyo. Also, if you don't roll any claws when attacking, you can't hurt the player in Tokyo at all. There are a few cards that change that, but that is a special case as well.
Marco Schaub But that's not even counting all the cards that can be played against the person of your choice that are in the game, too. It isn't a *pure* take that game, but the element is definitely there.
+Sam Healey There are 70+ cards in the game (including some promos) and there are only three that could be considered take that cards, and even those are soft take that cards:
*Parasitic Tentacles*, which lets you purchase cards from other players
*Unstable DNA*, take lets you steal a card from another player if you yield Tokyo, but you have to give him this card
*Healing Ray*, which lets you heal other monsters and they have to pay 2 Energy to you
All the other attack cards do not target anyone specifically. What cards were you thinking of?
Marco Schaub I didn't say how strongly they were there, just that they were...why is this such a big deal for you? The list was games that have a "take that" element to them...I think KoT qualifies. If my being wrong will help, okay, I'm wrong. I'm just saying that, while it may register lowly on the "take-that-o-meter", it does still register.
I don't quite understand why games like Bang, Rum&Bones and so on are on the list. Those games are meant to be games where you eliminate players and fight others. If games like this are on a list you could easily add Magic or any war game on a list.
I would classify take that games as games, where eliminating others is not the goal, but you can hit others if it benefits you. Games where you are for example trying to do your own thing to get victory points, or what ever and you can also sabotage others. Like Alien Frontiers where you are trying to colonize the planet but you can, if you want, destroy other players ships or take cards from them. It's not goal of the game but it helps you.
+C r s Yeees, thumb up for definition...This is the right definition of take that games and I'm just disappointed that the dice tower probably has a different interpretation of those games genre.
Survive! has been one of my favorite board games since playing the original in the '80's as a teen, and now I play it with my teens. Awesome take that game!
I think to some degree Sam seems to have construed any game where you do something to compete with other players as a "take that" game, which is a sufficiently broad interpretation to render the term moot. Is a war game where you attack another player's army "take that"? Is a worker-placement game where you can block others out of a spot "take that"? Seems like you should iron out the definition before composing lists.
Well, then what is the definition of a "take that" game? Does it have to be more than 2 players? Some two player games can have very mean competition that you can call them "take that". But i guess in this episode the emphasis was on throwing a card on someone to make him lose a piece, a point, a turn. When i was thinking about Tokaido with blocking other players (especially the 2 players variant) or Tom reminded me about Pompeii when he was talking about Survive. You have to do this anyway, but sometimes it can be mean. I can also call Magic a constant take that game :) What? You wanted to play that spell? Well, you don't! Oh, you've summoned that creature? Now sacrifice it! :)
+wr00t I think a key component is that "gotcha" element where you don't know at any given time whether you'll be messed with or not. In Cutthroat Caverns, you *might* finish off the monster, but then again someone might step in and mess with you. That's a big difference from two armies inexorably crashing into each other.
+Steve Gale I really like Sam's style and choice in games. However he tends to do that with every category. His science fiction list was all over the place.
+C. Prusse (Kaylore14) Yeah, the rules being broken here are implicit, not explicit. That's chiefly because they *don't* agree on their definitions before they do the list, and they don't bounce their choices off of anyone prior to air time.
+C. Prusse (Kaylore14)
Sam Healey is the Chuck Norris of The Dice tower : you can't decree the meaning of a category to Sam Healey ! The category goes to see Sam Healey and ask him to define its meaning.
From the games that i own probably only Saboteur qualifies the most for this, when you can brake tools for other players (somewhat similarly to the Bang game sometimes hurting your teammates, but in this game it is not the main point of the game).
i really appreciate the lord of the rings quotes
thanks Sam
+guilhermebelmonte1 and voices :)
This seemed like such a counterintuitive list. "Our top 10 games of a mechanic we generally don't like." Nearly everything's qualified by a "it's take that but I don't hate it"
+Eric Odenheimer Well, here's their dilemma: Top 10 are the most sure-fire click-grabber on RUclips, and the Dice Tower is no exception, but there is only so many top 10 lists you can do in this hobby, particularly given that even collectively there are still a lot of game tastes unrepresented by Sam, Tom, and Zee.
Still, there's many better Top Tens they could do. I've already sent them this request in a message, but I'd LOVE to see them do a Top Ten list of games with the best art
I think they've done that one, Eric.
+Eric Odenheimer I find them quite helpful though. If you can have three guys, who generally aren't that into a genre, recommend a game from that genre, then I can assume it's probably worth a try.
I generally prefer Euro style games, but wasn't really sure where I should go after the initial Catan/Carcassonne introduction. The fact that Sam, who by his own admission is NOT a Euro fan, recommended Stone Age so highly meant that I gave it a go (and I still love it).
+Eric Odenheimer Doesn't that mean that it's a take that game that has broader appeal? I think that's more helpful almost.
King of New York feels like a 'take that' when you notice a monster has enough units round them that 3 ouchie's would kill them, so rather than go for points you trigger the ouchies instead...
+Negatrev It definitely has an extra "take-that" element that KoT doesn't, but it's just one possible strategy.
Wyatt Earp "Hideout" card is super mean take that!. It's a great underrated game.
Settlers of Catan is a take that game. That robber is not only the most common roll, but it is the mechanism to bust up cornering the market on a resource, slowing down others when you are in last place, and the only part of the game that takes it from a friendly, Ticket To Ride type competition to setting players against each other and making someone say "OK you keep robbing me, I don't care if I win, I'm taking your longest road.
How did no one have Spartacus on their list? Probably my favourite "take that" game.
I'd probably have Guillotine as well
The only co-op game that I could think of that has a take that element would be Battlestar Galactica.
The times in the game when you may put someone in the brig, take the presidency/Admiral, reveal as a cyclon/play a super crisis card.
The theme of the the game and suspense when played well, I feel plays down the take that element, but in a good way.
Colt express is one of our favourite games at the moment.
So much fun.
Excellent for families but also fun with groups of adults.
I love how it seemed like they were trying really hard to hate on Munchkin, but didn't want to explicitly say the name.
6:35 The Lie, 8:55 The sacrifice, 12:16 and the Shocker! LOL, you guys are too funny!
I know it's not everyone's favorite, but SmileyFace should get an honorable mention in this list in my opinion. I really would love a top 10 meanest games in the near future, which probably is a more applicable list for SmileyFace to be on. Another list I'd love to see ya'll do in the future would be a top 10 card drafting games.
I would have put Lords of Waterdeep on this list. Almost half of the Intrigue cards are "take that!" esp. Manditory Quests.
Not to mention Righteous 13:55, 15:30 The Destroyer, 17:46 The Violent (Bullets in people LOL), 19:35 The irrelevant, 32:33 EVEN Cannibalism. OMGosh!
My guesses for this list (before it started) are: Lifeboats, Survive!, and Pompeii.
(RoboRally and the Intrigue expansion for Dominion are particularly nefarious as well, but I don't think either made their lists. And let's not forget Catan with the robber, as well as placing a road/settlement to block another player.) I also did not include MtG, because the whole purpose of that 2-player precisely to attack and counter/defend.
After viewing, my guesses placed:
Lifeboats: not mentioned
Survive!: 5 (Tom)
Pompeii: not mentioned
Other reactions:
6:10 - Ugh! I didn't think of Bang! The Dice Game! That's an awesome one and our gaming groups - both family and friends - always enjoy, in spite of the "take that" element, probably because each game is so fast.
14:25 - Wish I'd thought of Black Fleet... just bought that for the kids for Christmas. I hope there aren't too many tears... (I mean when they sink my ship and steal my cargo!)
17:52 - Cash & Guns is definitely "take that", and again, so loved by our gaming groups. Something about pointing foam guns at family members between Thanksgiving and Christmas...
34:40 - looks like Dominion (and my Intrigue expansion) almost made the list... they kinda have to work on defining the difference between "take that" and "confrontation" games.
45:29 - mention of MtG... funny!
+jcb3393 So, I think Lifeboats and Pompeii should have been on the list (and possibly Dominion or Catan).
I thought about Pompeii when Tom mentioned Survive ;)
Spartacus: killing your opponent's gladiator in the arena is the least mean thing you can do.
Citadels: the Assassin, the Thief, and the Warlord, maybe even the Magician. 4 of the 8 available roles to select target someone else. If you're not hitting someone with a "take that" then you're at least trying to out-think an opponent who might be targeting you!
Bonus points of course because the game is solid and arguably an "evergreen" at this point. It's fairly easy to learn too. I remember this blowing my mind when I first encountered the "rock paper scissor" endless spiral of thought the game entails. "If I pick this then he'll pick this but if he knows I know that then he might think I'll pick this so then he'll pick this..."
Black Fleet is an awesome family game,and yes,there is a LOT of 'take that' but it's fun and never dooms the other player. Production value is incredible too,just a beautiful game,right up there with Jamaica.
Arcadia Quest. It has pvp but also pve quests. Lots of take that opportunity, especially in Beyond the grave exp. Pushing a monster in the path of someone, "just cauz", or preventing someone from accomplishing a quest just to be mean is fun. So is giving every other player 1 gold when a monster kills someone. Finishing up a monster another guild did most of the work on... etc.
I love Fury of Dracula and some of the best moments are those "gotcha!" action cards that mess up someone's plans.
Sam: What's up yyyyyy'allll!!! Ok, that was ome of the funniest and most unexpected things I've seen in my entire life.
Just because Zee asked for it...
10) Guillotine (Pretty much nothing but take-that)
9) Settlers of Catan (Because of the Robber and Knights)
8) Street Fighter Deck Building Game (WAY more attacks than DC)
7) Pirates vs. Dinosaurs (Second phase of the game has tons of it)
6) Hot Rod Creeps (Nothing but take-that)
5) Alien Frontiers (Tech Cards)
4) Lords of Waterdeep (Intrigue Cards)
3) Good Cop, Bad Cop (Equipment Cards, shooting each other)
2) Smash Up (Nothing but take-that)
1) Unexploded Cow (Nothing but take-that)
Surprised Tom didn't include Killer Bunnies. I was sure that would have been in his top 3.
Yay so happy Seasons finally made a top 10!! And also I agree that it's very "take that", I've been in so many games where some of my friends whole strategy is just to draft all the take that/ troll cards and cripple everyone else, it can be very unforgiving, especially when they are stealing a few crystals from you every turn (and they are gaining several crystals every round).
I would say Zombies!!! is a 'take that' game in a similar way to Colt Express. It has some nasty cards in there to use on other people especially once the helicopter pad has been revealed but it is such a fun game that you don't mind being nasty to each other. When I've explained it to people I have told them that it is a game to be nasty to each other because there is equal chances to get back at each other. And the added fact that taking over someone elses character and moving them through a hoard of zombies can help them as killing zombies can win you the game there is a 'take that' back feel when you've been moved through 6zombies and you've killed them all without taking a hit.
I have played boomtown dozens of times and I had never really considered it a "take that game". There are components that were mentioned that have a take that mentality. I am glad to see that it has made it on the list, however. It is a fun light social game that I do not think gets the attention it deserves.
Sam's argument against King of Tokyo is SOOOOOOO much more applicable to Revolution!
I feel like you guys need to redo this video. Way too many debatable choices on your lists. Maybe use BGG's definition of the mechanism as a guideline:
"Maneuvers that directly attack an opposing player's strength, level, life points or do something to impede their progress, while usually providing the main engine for player interaction [and] where single unforeseen card plays can cause huge swings in player progress or power."
One other characteristic that I feel distinguishes Take That games from other confrontational games is that there is no strategy involved in being able to lash out at an opponent. Wargames, for example, require that you move into position to take and hold territory, so even if you are able to attack an opponent it isn't an action that feels arbitrary or malicious.
Totally agree, war games/confrontation games are not "take that".
Been waiting for this one.
Funny story about Survive: I was playing with my wife and a friend and everybody was being super-nice. Weeell, I knew that couldn't last, so I rushed all my most valuable men to the shore and in the late game things started to get more mean, but I had already won. Muhahaha!
just to note.. The get more info for black fleet takes you to Im the Boss! dice tower page not the black fleet page that its supposed to be.
Lifeboats?
Surprised it's not om the list. Probably they don't like it that much. Jason would've put it on the list :D
+wr00t i think they do like it at least used to since they played it in a marathon. got me to buy it at least lol :P
+Daniel Engel I'm not sure it really is a "Take That" since it requires (minus the captain cards) a group to vote someone off the boat or spring a leak. To me, Take That means one person playing a card or taking an action to thwart someone else. Though, I see your point. It can be awfully mean :) It is one of my favorite games.
+Daniel Engel i think it was on their mean games list.
Yeah, Lifeboats! Also: Discworld: Ankh-Morpork. And there's should be a honorable mention for Munchkin since this game introduce gaming to a lot of people!
I'd have put Saboteur on the list for the breaking tool cards. Maybe Coup, Munchkin, Downfall of Pompeii
The comments seem to show a lot of people not fully understanding the "Take That" mechanic. Just doing something bad to another player isn't "Take That". "Take That" mechanics are those that *block* other players plans in some way, without giving a *direct* benefit to you. Things like increasing the monster level in Munchkin, countering spells in Magic the Gathering, playing a "lose a turn" card on someone, or just anything where a player says "I'm going to do X" and you pull out a surprise block. Stealing resources, dealing damage, applying status effects, taking something first, etc., are *not* examples of "Take That". Something that directly benefits you and coincidentally, incidentally, secondarily, or accidentally prevents a player from doing what they want is *not* "Take That".
I found the debate over King of Tokyo interesting as I see that as somewhat of a "take that" style game too. Would be interested to see a top 10 list for "confrontation" games and how they differ from "take that" games.
Sam: Old World New World is totally fun. It's thinky, not devoid of theme, and fun. If you like carcassone (which you do) you'll like this game.
What is the outro music in this video? It's very cool and feels very Dice Tower.
Regarding King of Tokyo/King of New York ... When you play with the Power Up expansion, the individual monsters have abilities which allow them to target individual players. The King is a good example.
I find it funny how Tom forgot how many take that elements are in his own game.
Hey guys. Brand new subscriber and new to RPG board games. Binge watching your vids to get a sense of whats out there. Thanks for the entertaining and informative vids.
Question- how many hats does Tom have? Seems like all the vids of yours I've seen thus far he's sporting a different one.
Keep up the good work. I'm finding out a lot about this new world from your channel. ;)
Tom does have many many hats.
Dead man's Draw would be my number 1. I generally don't like games like this, but it is hilarious to get hit by another player, then watch them bust. It's my number 1 beginner game for non gamers.
I'm not convinced that a two player/two team game (Rum & Bones, or one that you don't really know who you're going to hit when you do it (Colt Express) can really qualify as Take That, for the same reason that Zee doesn't think that games with 'hit everyone' are (Which I agree with) - They're not really targeted meanness which for me Take That has to be to be Take That.
I think my #1 would have been Dominant Species for this category. Only just scraping in there as Take That for me, but the Compete action, to a lesser extent the Glaciation action, and especially the Dominance card where you can set off a Volcano underneath someone's feet. If it wasn't for the fact it's a 4-6 hour game, I'd have thought it was the game Zee was describing as a Take That Euro when he was introducing Moai.
I would've put Tammany Hall on there. It's area control, but it is one of the meanest ones out there.
On a side note, I figured Cutthroat Caverns would be on there. It's the definitive "take that" game. I actually thought Tom would put it at 1, but it makes sense he chose Smash Up instead.
I probably would put Guillotine, but I figure since they don't like put "take that" games, that's probably why it isn't there.
Surprised nobody mentioned Lords of Waterdeep. Some of those intrigue cards are serious "take that" stuff, especially forced quests.
Love you guys! Keep it up
Tom is right. Pretty Pretty Smash Up is really cutthroat. Love that expansion.
Would Heartland come into the category? If yes, really like this game.
What was the video (before this one in the playlist) that was deleted?
Also Mille Bornes and Guillotine have crazy take that
Apparently no one has played 'Bootleggers'. I always need to tell people before playing that 80 percent of the cards are very mean to make sure they can bear the tough business including actual extortion and other vicious ways of ruining each others business. Some real good heartfelt revenge too.
Sam's list was the most spot on
Is next week Top 10 Take That Elimination Games? Sounds like Zee has a list ready.
Perhaps an upcoming list will be Top 10 Take That Elements versus Top 10 Take That Games.
Descent has small elements of take that with the Overlord cards, though I wouldn't consider it a take that game. I think a game primarily has to be take-that to be on this list in a meaningful way, but I agree with Sam that it is a mechanic best used as a component to a bigger experience. When it is simple take-that hand management, it usually feels spiteful for no good reason, or drawn out like Munchkin and Spartacus.
Abraca...what? is probably my favorite take that game so far. Citadels is a close second.
My favorite "take that" game is Red Dragon Inn. This isn't a category I enjoy very much.
Quite a few games I own were mentioned here though that surprised me as I wouldn't say it's a mechanism that I find particularly appealing, at least, conceptually. But I'm beginning to wonder if ANY conflict in ANY game could be characterized as a "take that" in some form if someone really wanted to argue it. I've played Survive for years but never thought of it as a "take that" or particularly "mean." Maybe it's because what happens fits the theme well enough. But that said, over time, Survive has worn a bit thin.
And while "co-op" games aren't usually considered in this category-- I've also begun to wonder if co-op games, despite their apparent attempt to be "nicer" with less conflict, may not be nearly as nice as they are thought to be-- especially if you have some people who might take the game too seriously and you end up with some after-game effects-- the "you lost the game for us" sort of thing, or potentially someone could build up a reputation of being a handicap rather than a benefit. At least, "take that" is up front about it, and I would think is less likely to have more lasting effects. With conflict in games, there's a "you mess with me and I mess with you" dynamic, but it all seems to for the most part, wash out in the end. But co-op games where regardless of whether there's a win or not, I wonder if some players could end up perceived as less equal than others. Reminds me of the sports games as a kid where you pick teams, and the kids who weren't considered very good always got picked last, which made it even worse for them.
One game that's been big in my gaming group is Tobago, which doesn't really have a "take that" and actually, has some co-op elements in that you share in the treasures, everyone can get a piece of the action. There's some "common goal" element but its still ultimately, a competition. Another favorite is Bohnanza, where the trading mechanism has some of that going for it as well-- mutual benefit. I'm wondering what the list would look like of other games which are essentially competitive, but where there are some shared interest characteristic-- that's a dynamic that seems to be a big hit with my crew. Maybe a top 10 list of "Non co-op games with shared interests/common goals."
Lots of good games this year!! I would like to play Sweet Mess!
Have been waiting for this top 10 list. Hmm 'take that' games? Well, first of all, I would never put any partygame (Bang! the dice game / Cash 'n Guns) on this list. It just doesn't fit the 'take that' mentality.
Then there is this: You can play a game in two ways: just for fun/laughs or you can play it cutthroat/competitive/fanatical. If you play Munchkin just for the silliness, it can be a blast! But if you play it to win, no matter what? Guess what, it is less fun! At least for one of the players ;-)
Some great 'take that' games imho are: Gigantoskop's 'Spank the monkey' (special attacks on other people's towers) and 'Badabooom!' (tinkering with the bomb and playing special cards) are great examples. Also Wasbabi (action cards and tile-blocking), Drakon (special effect tile-laying/blocking) and Gloom (playing positive cards on other peoples families) are great fun, when played light heartedly... Put that in you dictionary Tom! Take That!! LOL
Citadels has a blind take that element with the assassin and thief. And the warlord can definitely be a take that
I wonder if Resistance would be ok. Sure there is not cards as such but the lying gives that feel from time to time. I remember one case where played 3 rounds of Resistance and afterwards Cutthroat Caverns. I can honestly there was some extra stabbing after those Resistance games. Last room being the Hate and two of us played 100 crit for the card to give it the attacks as the players coudn't win anymore, so it was total partywipe :).
I would put Spartacus on the list. Great game and the intrigue phase and use of schemes has a very "take that" feel to it. Especially with how you may need to collaborate with others to target the lead dominus.
There's a flash version of Survive!? Where would I find it?
1830 has a strong take that element. I played that token there, take that. I trashed your stock, take that. I trashed the Penn RR and dumped it on you, take that. I played the penalty track play to shut you out of NY. Take that.
Love the Uruk-hai quote 32 minutes in: "Look's like meat is back on the menu boys!" #TwoTowersTakeThat
DId anyone else notice that Sam slapped his d20 19 times before he got that 19?
Surprised Tom put Seasons in there and not Innovation. Also thought Zee would pick Jambo but they did explain why it wouldn't qualify.
Got my other 3 guesses though (Black Fleet, Survive, Revolution). And kicked myself at Cash n Guns and Cutthroat Caverns :D
We Didn't Playtest This At All. There's just nothing like playing a 'Spite' when somebody wins, or calling them out for breaking one of the rules when they come up. It's also one of the few games where you can easily accidentally 'take that' yourself if you aren't paying attention. Blisteringly fast to play, so the losses don't hurt too badly, but everyone still gets long enough to laugh about how a round ended. Good times.
What, no Munchkin?
I mean, fair enough... if you don't like it :) I got sick of it really really quickly because of the "take that" mechanism, it just made the games way way way too long... everyone just sitting at level 9, and failing to win because everyone else would make it impossible for them to do so.
Could have had even more Faidutti games. He loves "take that"-style conflict.
I would have to go with Steve Jackson's illuminati.. had some really intense games
I think I would go Bang! the card game over the dice game because it feels like you have more control over your decision. Shogun maybe but it's war aspect is suspect to me. I think "take that" should be an action you can take when it doesn't benefit you what so ever and yet makes the game fun. I usually call it the grudge action because people usually lose there cool and have to get that person back. Small world again to me can do that but like shogun doesn't feel like I can say that. Maybe Xia: Legend of a Drift System. Batman Gotham City stratagy game..... I really cant think of any non-area control games that they didn't say already.
"Spartacus" the most take that i've ever played
My favorite take that game: Android. :) I hate the genre, but in Android it's thematic because of the story is so heavy. love that game
Libertalia & Alien Frontier would probably be high on my list.
2 games I considered big 'take that!' games that are missing from that list are Coup and Spartacus. In my opinion they definitely should have replace a few games from their list...
They should redo this in a top 10 meanest games. None of the games mentioned gets you really slapped around by other players(from the games I know) .
Lifeboats, Munchkin, Zombies!!!, Run For Your Life Candyman
Bravo Zee for Moai! You are correct, love this game and very mean... :)
the first games that came to mind besides Smash-up was Red Dragon Inn and Munchkin
Great lists. Libertalia could have easily been on the list as well.
boss monster? with the spell cards and special abilities each character receives when leveling up
shouldn't lords of waterdeep be in this list, because it's not a take that game but the intrigue cards are full of momenta like that?
Agree. I was sure Sam was going to mention it.
+Ronaldo Baptista My thoughts exactly. Those cards that make you do a quest are definitely a 'take that' moment.
+Aaron Sanchez-Serrano yes but they are not core to the gameplay: You can perfectly well play LoW without the mandatory quests in the intrigue deck. Especially if playing with the expansions.
+Ronaldo Baptista I thought about Lords of Waterdeep but most of the Take That cards aren't too aggressive (even mandatory quests earn the person a few points for completing them) and most of the game is relatively passive or even using cards that help both you and another player. So while it's got some Take That in the game I don't think it has enough of it to be something for this list. (Compared to Smash Up for example which is constantly using cards to unexpectedly mess up another player.)
+Tor Iver Wilhelmsen Playing without mandatory quests is for babies.
I don’t know but… somehow I didn’t get the feel that most of the games you guys mentioned where actually “take-that” games. But it is nothing to worry about!
No Argent: The Consortium? Cave troll? Wiz War? Hex Hex? 6 Nimmit? Innovation?
+Jason Hartgrave noone plays Wiz-war. :) But I missed Citadels (Thief and Warlord in particular)
+Jason Hartgrave I guess they didn't include HEX HEX, because it's pure take that while they said their lists are composed of games that include take that but are not only that...HEX HEX is great tho I love it :D
31:40 Am I the only one who noticed this? 33:13 Moai? It's an Hawaiian Island is it not? Moai (Mouw-ee) Comments anyone?
***** Thanks for correcting me, you're right, I was confused with Maui!!
Carcassone the Dragon expansion has caused conflict in my family.
I am suggesting a TOP 10 art designers
UK people - my favourite 'Take That' game is Patience or Roll the World. Any others?
+FC Raymo Reroll My Fire, Could We Play Magic Now?, It Only Takes A Minute Girl (To Teach The Rules). My favourite Take That game is this one: www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-Singstar-Take-That-PS3/dp/B002C73UVA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1444347962&sr=8-1&keywords=take+that+singstar
+Actualol /golfclap - well done sir, well done
you guys should do a top 10 game variants
It's not a perfect game, but no love for Lunch Money. I find the game to be a fun "Take That!" game anyway.
Red Dragon inn, fun take that game
I would choose Munchkin. There are so many take-that moments in just one game. Or how about Gloom
What about t2t Nordic countries? It's so easy to just take a route your opponents need for no apparent reason other than messing up their game.
T2R*
Ticket to Ride can be rather nasty. If you realise someone is building a specific route, you can block them by taking a key route even if you don't need that route yourself.
I agree with Tom about Black Fleet! :D
What's missing?
#61 on Tom's top 100 list
#18 on Sam's top 100 list
#44 on Zee's top 100 list
Alien Frontiers.
I'm surprised Smash Up didn't make Zee's Top 10.
Ruin! It's basically Parcheesi 2.0. Very fun at Conventions. :)
The Really Nasty Horse Racing Game.