Did you even watch the video? It's why you might fear or not like grapplers at certain levels. He's obviously just playing up the "I hate grapplers" thing.
Ever since I started playing zoners more often I've liked fighting grapplers a lot more, but that's kind of the easy way out. People who play rushdown characters likely hate grapplers the most as you need to get in, but grapplers punish you for getting in as that's what they want
Grappler pocket here in pretty much every fighting game. Re: Rushdown -- This is true _sometimes._ If the Rushdown character also has hops as part of their rushdown, it's a lot harder to grapple between their moves. Vortexers are the absolute WORST. I'd rather face ten Dhalsims over one Ibuki.
I play rushdown and I love fighting grapplers because I can usually just zoom in and start playing my singleplayer game before they can do anything to defend themselves
@@deathbringer9893 Depends on the players, honestly, but Dhalsim can pretty easily play "keep away" and timer scam without much effort if they don't want to play the game.
@@nedthedog4574 RPS is a pretty core part of fighting games in general. People love MKX and that whole is just "Guess: The Fighting Game". Asides that, grapplers are designed around high risk, high reward: a successful grab usually leads to big damage/big oki, but a whiff grab at grab range is basically giving the opponent their biggest punish for free, most of the time anyway.
@@Neogears1312 he's been top tier for a little over 2 years straight I feel like people forget that. They just have memories of the number one spot GT Goku, Adult Gohan, and currently Lab Coat
A grappler video and NOT A PIXEL OF BEOWULF? He can combo. He can get in. Get out. He can even use his chair for zoning And if he command-grabs you where he wants it. You. Are GONE
There's a few reasons why I love grapplers: First off, they're a surprisingly great way to learn a fighting game. As discussed, your standard grappler has very little movement tech, and a more linear game plan. This leads great to learning a fighting game as it gives you a clear goal on how to win and your lack of mobility is gonna force you to play defensively. You HAVE to learn to block if you wanna get anywhere with Grapplers. This helps to build the player's general game knowledge which will bring them a lot farther than just labbing combos will. Second, there's something just so primally satisfying about grabbing and throwing someone. It's hard to explain, but there's nothing else that feels more raw than picking up a motherfucker and slamming them face first into the dirt. It feels so intimate and so powerful at the same time as your opponent is at your mercy. Finally, the entire game plan of Grapplers is surprisingly accurate to what grappling fighting styles want to do IRL; and that's to end a fight as soon as possible. Grappling marital arts like Judo and Jujitsu aren't made to be big and flashy, they're made to incapacitate an opponent as quickly as possible. The biggest example of this is Brazilian Jujitsu. It's a style of Jujitsu that was invented by Helio Gracie, who was a man so chronically ill that he would get dizzy spells from running up the stairs. He took the style of Jujitsu and removed every unnecessary movement to make a style of grappling based off of leverage, timing and technique over strength. This allows anyone who learns it to take their opponents body and use it against them to take them down. Now, if we move back to Fighting games, there's some similarities here. Despite usually being built like shit brick houses, Grapplers are made to be patient and to use their opponents mistakes against them to dispatch a fight as quickly as possible. The philosophies of irl grappling and fighting game grapplers are actually quite similar, and a lot of people don't realize it. If we were to lose grapplers in fighting games, we wouldn't just be losing an entire archetype of play. We would be losing an extremely important representation of fighting and martial arts as a whole. I honestly wish we can get more grapplers that aren't built like brick houses to really show off these styles better.
Grappler love? Lets goooo I fell in love with grapplers cuz i used to play alot of WWF on my N64 and liked pro wrestling I also love dealing a million dmg in one hit, way more satisfying usually Tho it usually sucks when grapplers got no good things besides grabs, like if they wanna be the opposite of zoners, then they should be given really good short ranged buttons At least theres king, armor king n marduk in tekken, so fun
"Can lead other players down a path of frustration and anger" -- Baiken player, 2023 Since you requested we not ask in Twitch chat, play Potemkin. Start by learning kara cancels and kbmf loops, then slowly descend into becoming one of us and lamenting abare options. We have one of the best character discords and cookies (the cookies might be a lie)!
Chipp v. Potemkin makes me smile. I can mix a pot player for 4 hours, have one jump read, and get my health bar depleted. It’s so funny even when I’m being hit with the funny moves.
Hate is not the word I would describe fighting grapplers. Hate incites anger, zoners incite anger. Grapplers incite fear, fear of screwing up. If anything, I would hate myself for screwing up my combo against a grappler, having 50% of my HP gone in one move and the other 50% in a 2nd hit combo
People don't like grapplers cause THEY MAKE YOU WATCH when they grab you, making you realize you fucked up. Then they do it again and again. Laughing the entire time like mad men.
Same could be said for rushdown when you get into a looped combo that kills you at zero. I don't believe high damage is really a factor either for grapplers as 1 sol combo can do just as much as a potemkin buster if not more. I think with grappler there is a lot less mistakes to make but its more punishing to mess up. While as a rushdown, you have a lot more mistakes to make, but they are less punishing. The idea of long division once, or subtraction multiple times.
"guess wrong" can hardly be considered an error and you shouldn't have to lose half to all of your live for doing it. The problem is the specific two fold combination that these characters can put you into lethal guessing games *and* that they are startlingly easy to play. Playing a grappler will often make someone punch multiple ladder rungs above their skill. It is like playing long pips in table tennis which is probably an anology that will be lost in everyone. It is a level of jank that makes you perform reasonably well for very little effort, and it puts the onus on other players to spend gratuitous amounts of time mastering exacting procedures to avoid dying against a roulette wheel. You're over here doing Calculus while the grappler thinks 2 and 2 is 3 but continues to win.
@A Fox sounds like your just stroking your ego here. Can you explain grapplers in a way that doesn't make you sound like someone who lacks their own critical thinking.
As a grappler player (Mainly Gief Pot and King) this is accurate, I love seeing the fear of the many while they desperately flee from my big warm hugs….. and their shattered spine that comes with said hug but that’s a minor detail
Fighting game players when any other type of character predicts their opponent's moves and punishes them: "Omg, so based!" Fighting game players when a grappler does the same thing: "Fucking bullshit slot machine coin toss the sun was in my eyes I forgot to put on my lucky bracelet today no skill L + Ratio + No bitches."
Fighting game players when a rushdown 50-50s into a combo that does 1/4 life bar: "Wow, so based, high level play" Fighting game players when a grappler 50-50s into a command grab that does 1/4 life bar: "Wow, so broken, how can one attack do that much damage?"
Hello Grappler player here and i like doing the funny move :D also a grappler vs grappler match can be a fun experience because we both have similar tools and it's interesting to see how we try to outmatch each other. I also liked you video very well done.
Something that I have noticed in my small personal friend groups is the overwhelming feeling of "I shouldn't have lost to the grappler, look how slow and clunky this character is" and losing despite feeling like you just shouldn't is a thing a lot of people don't deal with well.
No one is entitled to any win. What feels bad to me is knowing that the person on the other end of the connection is probably fundamentally way, way worse at fighting games, but they can crank rabid 360s and make you gamble with your life for free. I will say, not much else feels better than rage quitting a grappler when they are so bad that you can just keep them from ever getting to you. But that's rare.
@@helxis I don't believe it's for free as they still have to be at a specific range, and as you said, you can keep them from ever getting to you. So it's not really free. Thx Potemkin is greatly designed and doesn't only rely on his Command Grab to win.
@@nedthedog4574 how is strike/throw fundamentally different from high/low or left/right, beyond the fact that in many games you can fuzzy defend against strike/throw ? People like to point at 50/50 strike/throw as a fundamentally flawed thing, but at their core, fighting games involve a TON of risk/reward calculations and trying to get a read on what your opponent is going to do. Is this person going to press and end their string, or are they going to try to reset pressure in a way I can interrupt? Should I commit to an antiair, or is this person going to commit to a mobility option to avoid it and punish? Did that person drop their combo accidentally, giving me an option to hit them, or is this a reset setup? Baiken just threw a claw, is she going to do a followup I can punish but would catch me pressing buttons, or is she going to back off? Millia got a hard knockdown, is she going for left/right/overhead/low? This person has a DP, should I go for oki or block and punish in the hopes they DP? Even if a character were to exist that didn't have *any* mixups, there's still guessing involved. Is that person going to do a followup to cover the option they just used, or can I whiff punish and get my turn in? Hell, ignoring any matchup-specifics, just about every round start between any two characters is a large RPS matrix of here's what options each character can do and what beats or loses to the other character's options.
I don't see how a grappler being able to loop their pressure is a different animal to a rushdown character keeping you pinned under a 4 way mix. Is there a difference im missing? Do you think maybe you prefer dealing with zoners because they're the favourable matchup for rushdown in the archetypes RPS? (Or is it just that potemkin's massive hands fill your belly with fear? Its okay to be afraid of him, we all are).
Generally, the reasons why Grapplers are more straining to fight mentally for a lot of people that he didn't mention is that it relies on the opponent predicting your option correctly and dealing out a high degree of punishment for a single mistake. But you are right Grapplers are just the logical extreme of a strikethrough character.
Rushdown usually entails things that are blockable and you usually have better blocking days than you do avoiding an unblockable. In a lot of the games where you have crazy 4 way mix ups you can usually burst out of the damage as long as you have a resource. Whereas whatever big damage you take from a grab you have to hold. It's the fact that the grabs are unblockable and/or untechable that people hate the most. Being a good blocker can throw off a sick pressure mix at least.
There's no difference Id rather fight a pot than a chip At least I dont have to lab pot as much and I have no fear of a reset wiping me out Grapplers are the extreme of footsies while mixups are a 1 player game that causes someone else to cry
I only play strive so my viewpoint might be limited but I really enjoy the Potemkin match up [ my favorite matchup after Faust (I play Anji) ] not that it is easy to play against but it requires a different approach and I like that
Can confirm as a potemkin player I get a euphoric high when I grab someone and give em the bane treatment. Seeing my opponent back away in fear tickles me. Lol
The point you made about how different the game is is honestly what makes low level play so interesting to me. It's kind of like card games, seeing people using weird combos with a limited card pool vs people with all the staples and engine pieces. That's why I like to watch floor 1-3 replays too. Characters play radically differently down there and it nearly doubles the amount of "game" for me to explore, even if I'm not participating in it, except when trying to ease friends into the game.
I am new to fighting games in general and I'm currently just finding out about Strive and playing it, I picked Ramlethal because I thought her swords were cool, and I saw everyone calling her a zoner when I just play a "in your face" style gameplay rushing down everyone with follow ups, it's funny how it caught people off guard to see me rush in as Ramlethal, and I like it a lot
As a King player the "Whats it feel like to hit a command grab?" Segment had me in stitches! The PS2 Start up sound and psychedelic colors background was a perfect combo for how it feels to land a RDC in ranked
This is a great video, I play Potemkin and have always been confused why people love fighting rushdown characters with unending looping pressure who get a ton of openings and use mix to achieve their win condition because it forces you to guess more and requires a lot of matchup knowledge to find punish windows. Their neutral can be interesting but like grapplers once they get in they have a pretty easy time staying in. Grapplers get a ton of damage but are extremely read based and have to use their fewer opportunities to blow opponents up - I feel about as satisfied reading my opponent as I do reacting to something but having to be stuck in Chipp hell in the corner or being forced to make guesses against Millia on wakeup feels kinda like dealing with garuda oki in the corner or getting 50/50d after a knockdown. I think people just get mad as hell when they get their pages flipped because punishing grapplers is easy, just don't get read.
It's the 2 second animation. It's long enough to let the feeling of "why did I get hit by that?" sink in. When getting juggled by more damaging combo into oki you hope they drop it so no time to think too much about the mistake that led to the situation. Potemkin Buster is ludicrously damaging because who stays on the ground for long in GG games?
Okay, story time: When I was younger, I got Blazblue: Continuum Shift on the 3DS. I really liked the game, even though I had no idea how to play fighting games then and even now (somewhat). Just so happens my older brother was also a fan of the game. So one day we got to play it together. I didn't really have a main- closest main I had was Lambda-11 because I thought she was cool. My older brother mained Iron Tager, the local grappler. He was way better than me at the game. First match we did. Astral Finish. i've never been the same since Grappler players scare me.
It comes down to people disliking when they are forced out of their prefered playstyle. They can't play the same against Zoners and graplers as they do against most characters. I realy dislike the whole "keep them shit" aproach because it's inherently unfair to players who like those playstyles. No playstyle is inherently more important, the difference is simply the number of players who play basic bitch ass shoto or ungabung is higher so it's taken as "the correct way to enjoy the game". I'm an ungabunga rushdown Andy too but just imagine rushdown made intentionally dogshit to apease zoner players... sounds like shit, right?
As a zoner/grappler player, I second this. Rushdown and shoto players complain when they can't use their preferred playstyle against us, but we have to adapt all the time. There are a lot of matchups where I'll have to play more aggressively as a zoner, or I'll have to focus more on neutral as a grappler. It's just a part of the game.
Little Mac and the hate for him. As a Link main, I hate playing against Mac because it is not fun to just camp him. Mac forces you to play at a distance because if you get to close he will usually win encounters and that becomes boring to play keep away all the time! (This comes from a Link main, the bow an arrow bomb bommer boi whose whole play style revolves around zoning) as a Mac main, this has been a true encounter of mine when I talk about Mac.
One thing to consider is how insane they are without their weaknesses, think Abigail lol - but yeah I'm tired of it too, I'd like to see throwing increase in strength all across the board, even if that's a monkey paw wish
You don't like fighting grapplers because you think they are "cheating" by getting big damage with a single move while you spent all that time learning combos.
As i said before they can spew all day about playstyles when i legit take forever to wittle you down and one misread cost me the round im not going to pat you on the back even if ive gotten better there will always be a hate for grapplers always and ill be there to do it always
Hating grapplers or not depends on 2 things and 2 things only: - The archetype the character YOU play (The player vs. the Grappler) falls into. (Shoto/All-Rounder, Rushdown, Zoner, etc) - Skill issue. Seriously, I've met more bad players that genuinely hate grapplers because they can't adapt than players that are good at the game despite the character they play.
grapplers players are too honest for most people. they tell you exactly what they want to do to you at the pick screen, and somehow you still fail to stop them.
You know, I feel Grapplers are misunderstood. People tend to think that they're villains. Big, bad bullies that shove you into a locker and take the healthbar your mom prepared for you. This is, however, wrong. Grapplers are not the monsters of our time, they're not the horror villains the media wants you to believe they are. Quite the opposite, Grapplers are the shounen protagonists of the fighting game genre. Every fight they walk in to, they know they start at a disadvantage. No game ever gave a Grappler a favorable round-start. And yet, they walk, always. As soon at the battle starts, so does the opponents relentless, cowardly scheming. Instead of meeting the Grappler head-on, they abuse weaknesses, goes for unseen angles, or run away and hide behind walls of projectiles. Cheating and tricks are the tools of evil, tools every Grappler must endure and overcome. Not with tricks of their own, but with determination, grit, experience and heart. The entire world stands against them, yet relent is never even an option. Instead, they lab, they work for what they believe in, they clench their fists, takes the beating so nobody else has to, sacrifice their own life with super armor, all to seize that one moment to put evil where it belongs. To the Potemkins, King of Dinosaurs, Iron Tagers, Cerebellas, Kings, Bowsers and Zangiefs of the world. You are not Jason Vorhees, Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers or Leatherface. You're All Might. You're Kazuma Kiryu. You're Kenshiro. You're Son Goku. Protecting what's important, with your own fists as hammers and your own chest as shields. Stand tall, and proud, Grapplers. As long as evil resides in online lobbies, there must always be a hulking giant, to grab it.
its luck in a competitive game, fighting games already are full of "guess" situations and grapplers make it 10x worse, people that watch competitive games don't want to watch rock paper scissors fest
I tell you why fighting grapplers is frustrating, is cuz they require actual intelligence to play instead of game knowledge and reflexes. All of a sudden the game is not based on who knows more obscure mechanics or interactions, not on who knows more the combos and so has better damage and not who has better reflexes and can just react of he makes a mistake. All of a sudden is all based on predicts and tactics. Most fighting games play like single player. You interact just enough to get a confirm in neutral end then you are combining a dummy, and even in neutral getting that confirm os based on game knowledge, something that is inefficient to train trough trial and error ands so is studied trough wikis abd training dummies Grapplers force you to actually think, reinvent, and not just apply what you learned in training. Suddenly it's actually a multiplayer game and most people don't want to play that, they just want to play a combo simulator to feel cool when they fo a long and complicated combo, even at the cost of not being able to do nothing while getting combos themselves
As someone who likes Oonga Boonga characters in games (Anna in Tekken, Joker/Catwoman in Injustice, El Fuerte in SF4), I actually really like fighting Grapplers. They are always a constant vibe-check to my oppression and a good check of my overall neutral. Liking the "risky rushdown", Grapplers rely more on Neutral then me and it's always nice as well considering how rare they are *online*.
I love it when my friends complain about me powering through some of their best moves right before I kill them with the most aggressive hug known to mankind
@@loomierome8411 isn't weird I simply don't think there is much to grapplers besides guessing, or is there any way to skillfully get out of their grasp without having to guess that Im missin ?
I love watching your videos because sometimes i see something to do with baiken in the background and i notice its something i could implement into my gameplay, even during super random parts of the video
"DNF Duel Grappler is a combo grappler" I mean, yes. He's just on the opposite end of the spectrum. He's not "I do actual combos and incorporate a command grab", he's "My combos *are* command grabs."
I've never played a 2D fighting game, but I assume grapplers in those games are like King from Tekken or Astaroth from Soul Calibur? Like, fundamentally there's not a lot of difference between a command grab or a combo starting low. You still need to predict and respond appropriately. All fighting games are about mixups.
2D and 3D grapplers are not terribly comparable, especially Tekken grapplers due to how throws are meant to be unreactable mixups in conjunction with strikes in 2D games rather than the "react to the hands" game of Tekken. In 2D games, grapplers take the same idea and just increase the reward of the throw with better Oki, higher damage, etc alongside improved consistency with things like extra range and being untechable. These are typically high risk, high reward maneuvers as you are very punishable if the opponent guesses the throw correctly. Meanwhile Tekken grapplers instead mix you up between different throw breaks, such as how King can mix iSW and Giant Swing which look nearly identical. While they're punishable when ducked, they aren't as risky to throw out since a teched throw doesn't lead to a punish. In Tekken, I'd say a character with looping, unreactable mid/low mixup like Ganryu is most comparable to the strike/throw game of 2D grapplers.
I agree about the mix up part but the thing with 2D grappler is you can't tech like in tekken where you can learn how to break throws with match up knowledge and reactions. It is more about anticipation hence why Gekko said they play arround your fear as they either hit you, counter hit or grab for at least 30% health rinse and repeat. they have an insane ability to steamroll and reverse the tide with just one touch which stresses out most people and the majority don't want to deal with it. Imagine if you disable the teching mechanic against king and have to eat everything if he ever manage to make contact.
I love fighting grapplers as a rushdown player, I think the fact that we both want to get in makes things interesting. Kind of like in boxing or MMA when both fighters agree to slug it out in the middle of the ring/cage and see who is tougher. Granted there is a lot of risk deciding to slug it out with a grappler but I think that is akin to the risk in fighting a big puncher and having to outmaneuver their heavy blows.
The issue for both beginner and intermediate players is that fighting a grappler is a giant knowledge check. At a high enough level, players are able to deal with this knowledge check and it simply becomes a skill issue for the loser. But beginners often dont know how to stop someone from just walking at them. And more intermediate players probably know 1 way, but cant deal with the alternative: walking faster at them. I found playing Strive Potemkin was a breeze until around floor 8 where people started thinking. Its all one massive knowledge check.
I know it's an old argument but my issue with grapplers is not trying to prevent their win condition, it's having very specific ways to respond once they grab you. For instance, I was fighting a King player recently. He would use grapples but nothing game breaking until we'd end up always at 2 wins each with a tie breakint round. Which he'd then just tank hits and spam a grapple, or combo into it through my block then would do the endless rolling combo on the ground which could deplete my HP to zero regardless of where it started. I then proceeded to look up how to break it and learned that you cannot break that part; you have to accurately guess the initial grapple and hit the correct button at the exact right time to break before the roll happens. Once he starts rolling your can't get out and it's basically an automatic win. I decided I just won't ever rematch King players anymore in ranked. I genuinely cannot understand how this is a mechanic that can only be beaten if you spend tons of time practicing for that specific move or his other endless grabs and with only one response to each specific one. Combined with King having a great moveset outside of grappling it just doesn't make sense to me. I really only beat them but rushing them down
My favorite characters are always rushdown with a bit of grappling (in smash someone like falcon), I generally want to go fast but I really want to have that pressure be based more around hit grab mixup than just on hi low mixup
AHAHHAHAHA hit grab, that's hilarious sounds so dumb? say Strike/Throw, god I hope you don't say hit/grab in real life, that would be embarrassing ahahahaha
10:00 You're just... describing 50/50s and rps situations? Which good rushdowns and shotos also do all the time? Except grapplers have to actually touch you with a command grab to earn them. There wasn't really a rebuttal of the common argument "you're just mad because big number and they're making you play differently than you normally would" and in fact was felt just like a "yes in fact I do hate that." Idk maybe I missed something.
Hey Gekko! Probabily you know, but i will leave the suggestion here, Lord Knight made a video making a tier list of Fighting Games Archetypes. I find funny that sub archetypes change the names in some places lol, like you're calling the "Combo Grapler", while LK use the name "Pixie Grapler". Always when people talk to arechetype those things happen, and i alway be like: I wish i could now every single Acrhetype, even that is not even possible to tell since there are like archetypes exclusive of one game or franchise, but i would be glad if you could help me someday with that. Anyway, sorry if i wroted something not gramatcly acurat, english is not my first lenguage.
As a Julia main in Tekken I spam the absolute crap out of mad axes, It can be buffered out of everything tick throws, Backdashes, side steps. Her gameplan is different now but in Tekken 3 and tag 1 she had absurd damage from counterhit pokes so naturally you don't want to press buttons. That made her surprisingly large amount of throws even more scary (She also had a safe mid launcher to worry about so no ducking). I miss that Julia I know she's strong in T7 but it's not the same.
i think my biggest issue with grapplers is that they need WAY fewer interactions to win (ideally, anyway) and a lot of times you're caught in an animation that's just long enough to make me want to die. doesn't help that it's especially demoralizing to be like one or two frames off from linking a button and then BAM butterchurned into oblivion
Why players love maining Potemkin: BUSTIN BUSTIN BUSTIN BUSTIN BUSTIN BUSTIN BUSTIN MAKES ME FEEL GOOD FEEL GOOD FEEL GOOD FEEL GOOD FEEL GOOD YEAH YEAH YEAH
I play Sol and Pot is my favorite matchup It's a true duel of the minds, three round of pure psychological warfare. No bullshit, no setplay, no 4 way mixup in the middle of an hour long blockstring Just me, my opponent, and the soil
Rest assured that you're putting in way more mental effort on your side than they are on theirs. You: performing astrophysics to anticipate every option while honing your reactions to punish all that you can. Them: haha joystick 360s go brrrr
@A Fox It sounds like you haven't played that match-up. Sol's pressure on Potemkin is very hard for the latter to break due to his poor frame data, making taking your turn back more difficult on Potemkin. You don't just spin the stick to win, you have to know exactly when the other player left themselves too minus to contest your command grab to get in on them
Shout out to my favorite fighting game character, Beowulf from Skullgirls. Playing him is like snorting paint and running through a Walmart completely naked
Cool vid but i don't think you really encapsulated why people dislike it, just that you think it's not fun - then sort of muddied the waters with lumping in oki on cmd grabs or just having a cmd grab being a defining factor. Sol, Bridget, Faust, Leo etc all have cmd grabs that put them in muchhhh better oki positioning than pot. Firstly, people who dislike are sometimes memeing. Some say it cos they wanna follow the trend after playing against like... one grappler their whole life. Outside of that... You sort of glossed over the concept of 'being predicable'. Thats what i think makes people hate them the most. That you can be predicted, and it makes you feel dumb. Getting hit by 3 PBs in a row hurts because you made 3 wrong guesses and think they've got you figured out making it feel like it's hopeless. The looping pressure isn't quite true either. Iirc, Gief SPD > dash > SPD isn't real and Pots PB > HF > PB isn't real on most ranges. Watch some itabashi or snakeyez matches and you'll see how good they make grapplers look because of reads and conditioning over Oki, setplay or whatever. Ultimately the only way you'll *fully* understand why people hate grapplers, and if their assumptions are true or false, is by actually playing as a grappler to see past the surface level stuff of slow buttons / slow walk speed / short combos. Etc.
The part where he monologues about nightmares and how “we’re so sure about the past and present” I got a shot of existential fear about “how do we KNOW about the past besides books and archives?” Just something I thought I’d share
@@evilded2 I'm talking about a time when a Potemkin zoned me out, because I was playing Giovanna, and I rely on close ranged mixups, but he has big buttons
How to fight: Zoners: Rush em. Grapplers: Jump Rushem. Puppet characters: Hit Puppet, Rush em. Rushdown: Range attacks, Rush em. Happy Chaos: Rush em. Do Not Wallbreak (Unless guarenteed kill)
Hot Take: I find grapplers the most honest archetype. And I don’t even play them I just sympathize with them in regards to zoning. The more reliant a character is to zoning the less honest they seem to me.
Thunder in KI my beloved, I love how his Instinct is giving him the best dash in the game He goes from a damage truck to a damage truck with rocket engines attached
Surprised about the lack of mention of Blazblue's Iron Tager whose most damaging command grab is a reversal super and who can put a magnet effect on the opponent via a projectile (or some of his normals) to make his effective grab range the entire screen
I love playing characters where you won't really know if you're gonna win or not. The characters where anyone who sees them will go "I got this" and then they get hit a couple times by the wrong moves and rage quit.
Words of someone who doesn't like to think and adapt. Zoners and Grapplers both make you change how you play, and people generally don't like that. So in response to video title: Use your thinkmeat or hold the command grab.
I don't mind most of the characters I use in alex in sf5 kof shermie and kod are grapplers and soon in sf6 manon though shes a combo grappler with a power up gimmick. Incinaroar is pretty fun to use. The only people who get pissed are the shotos, ungabungas and rushdown player because they have to chill and slow down.
I love playing grapplers, I get to punish rushers when they whiff, I get to scare tf outta zoners, and when I meet a fellow Grappler? Oh, it’s a dance, a beautiful dance of Busters and Heat Extends
"you have to sit there and either the grappler messes up or you guess correctly and get away from them"
-a baiken player with 50/50s.
This video would have been a lot simpler if he said "I hate grapplers and think zoners are fine because I play rushdown"
Bacon players smh, what else do they need!?!
Did you even watch the video? It's why you might fear or not like grapplers at certain levels. He's obviously just playing up the "I hate grapplers" thing.
@@arachnofiend2859 bro the video afterthat was him saying rushdowns suck
he spent the whole video before talking about how you can beat them easily with a small amount of zoning
Ever since I started playing zoners more often I've liked fighting grapplers a lot more, but that's kind of the easy way out. People who play rushdown characters likely hate grapplers the most as you need to get in, but grapplers punish you for getting in as that's what they want
Grappler pocket here in pretty much every fighting game.
Re: Rushdown -- This is true _sometimes._ If the Rushdown character also has hops as part of their rushdown, it's a lot harder to grapple between their moves. Vortexers are the absolute WORST. I'd rather face ten Dhalsims over one Ibuki.
I play rushdown and I love fighting grapplers because I can usually just zoom in and start playing my singleplayer game before they can do anything to defend themselves
ah yes, the fgc RPS system
@@Lenoh isnt legit dahl one of giefs better matchups(ive seen so many airthrow dahls kicks)
@@deathbringer9893 Depends on the players, honestly, but Dhalsim can pretty easily play "keep away" and timer scam without much effort if they don't want to play the game.
One thing is consistent between this and Roofle's video on the subject: you hate fighting grapplers, because they work by tapping into your fear.
Imagine playing Pot and have a Millia/Chip/May be too scared to jump if you have meter.
Feels good. They should fear us.
Also Core a gaming mind games video talked about that
wrong, people hate rock paper scissor mechanics in games of skill and grapplers are mostly walking casinos
@@nedthedog4574 RPS is a pretty core part of fighting games in general. People love MKX and that whole is just "Guess: The Fighting Game". Asides that, grapplers are designed around high risk, high reward: a successful grab usually leads to big damage/big oki, but a whiff grab at grab range is basically giving the opponent their biggest punish for free, most of the time anyway.
@@nedthedog4574 aren't 50/50s an inherent part of fighters in general?
4:03 Funny how Brolly in DBFZ has amazing zoning while still being a grappler, no wonder he is top tier
He’s barely one tbf. And he earned it he started out mediocre and isn’t just some guy they dropped that broke the meta.
@@Neogears1312 he's been top tier for a little over 2 years straight I feel like people forget that. They just have memories of the number one spot GT Goku, Adult Gohan, and currently Lab Coat
@@LaterHarmony He's barely top tier now anyway
The thing is, he's not top tier, or at best at the bottom of that tier. It could be argued that only the hot android doctor is top tier also
@@LaterHarmony Hes not top tier anymore
A grappler video and NOT A PIXEL OF BEOWULF? He can combo. He can get in. Get out. He can even use his chair for zoning And if he command-grabs you where he wants it. You. Are GONE
It’s because Beowulf almost literally goes against all his points. Almost.
Ya beo is a rushdown with a grab game, not a grappler
There's a few reasons why I love grapplers:
First off, they're a surprisingly great way to learn a fighting game. As discussed, your standard grappler has very little movement tech, and a more linear game plan. This leads great to learning a fighting game as it gives you a clear goal on how to win and your lack of mobility is gonna force you to play defensively. You HAVE to learn to block if you wanna get anywhere with Grapplers. This helps to build the player's general game knowledge which will bring them a lot farther than just labbing combos will.
Second, there's something just so primally satisfying about grabbing and throwing someone. It's hard to explain, but there's nothing else that feels more raw than picking up a motherfucker and slamming them face first into the dirt. It feels so intimate and so powerful at the same time as your opponent is at your mercy.
Finally, the entire game plan of Grapplers is surprisingly accurate to what grappling fighting styles want to do IRL; and that's to end a fight as soon as possible. Grappling marital arts like Judo and Jujitsu aren't made to be big and flashy, they're made to incapacitate an opponent as quickly as possible. The biggest example of this is Brazilian Jujitsu. It's a style of Jujitsu that was invented by Helio Gracie, who was a man so chronically ill that he would get dizzy spells from running up the stairs. He took the style of Jujitsu and removed every unnecessary movement to make a style of grappling based off of leverage, timing and technique over strength. This allows anyone who learns it to take their opponents body and use it against them to take them down.
Now, if we move back to Fighting games, there's some similarities here. Despite usually being built like shit brick houses, Grapplers are made to be patient and to use their opponents mistakes against them to dispatch a fight as quickly as possible. The philosophies of irl grappling and fighting game grapplers are actually quite similar, and a lot of people don't realize it. If we were to lose grapplers in fighting games, we wouldn't just be losing an entire archetype of play. We would be losing an extremely important representation of fighting and martial arts as a whole. I honestly wish we can get more grapplers that aren't built like brick houses to really show off these styles better.
Grappler love? Lets goooo
I fell in love with grapplers cuz i used to play alot of WWF on my N64 and liked pro wrestling
I also love dealing a million dmg in one hit, way more satisfying usually
Tho it usually sucks when grapplers got no good things besides grabs, like if they wanna be the opposite of zoners, then they should be given really good short ranged buttons
At least theres king, armor king n marduk in tekken, so fun
Fuck grapplers
@@ReconNarwhal don't mind if I do 😳😳
@@HELLRAISER02 I'm in love with them thanks to Kengan Ashura.
@@blaacksugar7714 yes, more grappler love
So grapplers having 50/50s is not fine while rushdowns having them is fine? Nice
"Can lead other players down a path of frustration and anger" -- Baiken player, 2023
Since you requested we not ask in Twitch chat, play Potemkin. Start by learning kara cancels and kbmf loops, then slowly descend into becoming one of us and lamenting abare options. We have one of the best character discords and cookies (the cookies might be a lie)!
Chipp v. Potemkin makes me smile. I can mix a pot player for 4 hours, have one jump read, and get my health bar depleted. It’s so funny even when I’m being hit with the funny moves.
Hate is not the word I would describe fighting grapplers. Hate incites anger, zoners incite anger. Grapplers incite fear, fear of screwing up. If anything, I would hate myself for screwing up my combo against a grappler, having 50% of my HP gone in one move and the other 50% in a 2nd hit combo
People don't like grapplers cause THEY MAKE YOU WATCH when they grab you, making you realize you fucked up.
Then they do it again and again. Laughing the entire time like mad men.
Same could be said for rushdown when you get into a looped combo that kills you at zero. I don't believe high damage is really a factor either for grapplers as 1 sol combo can do just as much as a potemkin buster if not more. I think with grappler there is a lot less mistakes to make but its more punishing to mess up. While as a rushdown, you have a lot more mistakes to make, but they are less punishing. The idea of long division once, or subtraction multiple times.
"guess wrong" can hardly be considered an error and you shouldn't have to lose half to all of your live for doing it. The problem is the specific two fold combination that these characters can put you into lethal guessing games *and* that they are startlingly easy to play. Playing a grappler will often make someone punch multiple ladder rungs above their skill. It is like playing long pips in table tennis which is probably an anology that will be lost in everyone. It is a level of jank that makes you perform reasonably well for very little effort, and it puts the onus on other players to spend gratuitous amounts of time mastering exacting procedures to avoid dying against a roulette wheel. You're over here doing Calculus while the grappler thinks 2 and 2 is 3 but continues to win.
@Byron Martin exactly, its all luck
How do you know me so well? 😆 lol
@A Fox sounds like your just stroking your ego here. Can you explain grapplers in a way that doesn't make you sound like someone who lacks their own critical thinking.
As a grappler player (Mainly Gief Pot and King) this is accurate, I love seeing the fear of the many while they desperately flee from my big warm hugs….. and their shattered spine that comes with said hug but that’s a minor detail
Fighting game players when any other type of character predicts their opponent's moves and punishes them: "Omg, so based!"
Fighting game players when a grappler does the same thing: "Fucking bullshit slot machine coin toss the sun was in my eyes I forgot to put on my lucky bracelet today no skill L + Ratio + No bitches."
Fighting game players when a rushdown 50-50s into a combo that does 1/4 life bar: "Wow, so based, high level play"
Fighting game players when a grappler 50-50s into a command grab that does 1/4 life bar: "Wow, so broken, how can one attack do that much damage?"
Hello Grappler player here and i like doing the funny move :D also a grappler vs grappler match can be a fun experience because we both have similar tools and it's interesting to see how we try to outmatch each other. I also liked you video very well done.
The absolute insanity of a Potemkin mirror can't be understated
Something that I have noticed in my small personal friend groups is the overwhelming feeling of "I shouldn't have lost to the grappler, look how slow and clunky this character is" and losing despite feeling like you just shouldn't is a thing a lot of people don't deal with well.
No one is entitled to any win. What feels bad to me is knowing that the person on the other end of the connection is probably fundamentally way, way worse at fighting games, but they can crank rabid 360s and make you gamble with your life for free.
I will say, not much else feels better than rage quitting a grappler when they are so bad that you can just keep them from ever getting to you. But that's rare.
@@helxis I don't believe it's for free as they still have to be at a specific range, and as you said, you can keep them from ever getting to you. So it's not really free. Thx Potemkin is greatly designed and doesn't only rely on his Command Grab to win.
@@helxisif it's so rare, then maybe you're not so much better than you think in fighting games.
na it's cause some grapplers are walking casinos and are boring to play against
@@nedthedog4574 how is strike/throw fundamentally different from high/low or left/right, beyond the fact that in many games you can fuzzy defend against strike/throw ?
People like to point at 50/50 strike/throw as a fundamentally flawed thing, but at their core, fighting games involve a TON of risk/reward calculations and trying to get a read on what your opponent is going to do.
Is this person going to press and end their string, or are they going to try to reset pressure in a way I can interrupt?
Should I commit to an antiair, or is this person going to commit to a mobility option to avoid it and punish?
Did that person drop their combo accidentally, giving me an option to hit them, or is this a reset setup?
Baiken just threw a claw, is she going to do a followup I can punish but would catch me pressing buttons, or is she going to back off?
Millia got a hard knockdown, is she going for left/right/overhead/low?
This person has a DP, should I go for oki or block and punish in the hopes they DP?
Even if a character were to exist that didn't have *any* mixups, there's still guessing involved. Is that person going to do a followup to cover the option they just used, or can I whiff punish and get my turn in?
Hell, ignoring any matchup-specifics, just about every round start between any two characters is a large RPS matrix of here's what options each character can do and what beats or loses to the other character's options.
I don't see how a grappler being able to loop their pressure is a different animal to a rushdown character keeping you pinned under a 4 way mix. Is there a difference im missing? Do you think maybe you prefer dealing with zoners because they're the favourable matchup for rushdown in the archetypes RPS? (Or is it just that potemkin's massive hands fill your belly with fear? Its okay to be afraid of him, we all are).
Generally, the reasons why Grapplers are more straining to fight mentally for a lot of people that he didn't mention is that it relies on the opponent predicting your option correctly and dealing out a high degree of punishment for a single mistake. But you are right Grapplers are just the logical extreme of a strikethrough character.
Rushdown usually entails things that are blockable and you usually have better blocking days than you do avoiding an unblockable. In a lot of the games where you have crazy 4 way mix ups you can usually burst out of the damage as long as you have a resource. Whereas whatever big damage you take from a grab you have to hold. It's the fact that the grabs are unblockable and/or untechable that people hate the most. Being a good blocker can throw off a sick pressure mix at least.
Overheads are reactable, command throws are not
There's no difference
Id rather fight a pot than a chip
At least I dont have to lab pot as much and I have no fear of a reset wiping me out
Grapplers are the extreme of footsies while mixups are a 1 player game that causes someone else to cry
Are you new to fighting games?
Leave us grapplers alone, you’re lucky we don’t mix paint into our glue every day to enhance our gameplay beyond mortal comprehension
actualy good idea, i tried crayons on glue and its ok, but paint, thats gota hit hard whem mixed with glue
The forbidden elixir...
Actually I enjoy fighting grapplers
Only cuz they don't make them strong.
@@no_nameyouknow actually I enjoy them because they force me to actually think about how close I am to them.
I only play strive so my viewpoint might be limited but I really enjoy the Potemkin match up [ my favorite matchup after Faust (I play Anji) ] not that it is easy to play against but it requires a different approach and I like that
Because you are on of us
Or you are a masochist
You're an "out-striker type", aren't you? 😑
Can confirm as a potemkin player I get a euphoric high when I grab someone and give em the bane treatment. Seeing my opponent back away in fear tickles me. Lol
The point you made about how different the game is is honestly what makes low level play so interesting to me. It's kind of like card games, seeing people using weird combos with a limited card pool vs people with all the staples and engine pieces.
That's why I like to watch floor 1-3 replays too. Characters play radically differently down there and it nearly doubles the amount of "game" for me to explore, even if I'm not participating in it, except when trying to ease friends into the game.
I am new to fighting games in general and I'm currently just finding out about Strive and playing it, I picked Ramlethal because I thought her swords were cool, and I saw everyone calling her a zoner when I just play a "in your face" style gameplay rushing down everyone with follow ups, it's funny how it caught people off guard to see me rush in as Ramlethal, and I like it a lot
Quick correction: Potemkin isn’t 250 lbs. He actually weights over 1,400 lbs. Quite frankly, it’s a miracle that he can even walk.
Actually no, he's 2400 pounds, so 1.2 tons
This is why I’m a grappler
As a King player the "Whats it feel like to hit a command grab?" Segment had me in stitches! The PS2 Start up sound and psychedelic colors background was a perfect combo for how it feels to land a RDC in ranked
This is a great video, I play Potemkin and have always been confused why people love fighting rushdown characters with unending looping pressure who get a ton of openings and use mix to achieve their win condition because it forces you to guess more and requires a lot of matchup knowledge to find punish windows. Their neutral can be interesting but like grapplers once they get in they have a pretty easy time staying in. Grapplers get a ton of damage but are extremely read based and have to use their fewer opportunities to blow opponents up - I feel about as satisfied reading my opponent as I do reacting to something but having to be stuck in Chipp hell in the corner or being forced to make guesses against Millia on wakeup feels kinda like dealing with garuda oki in the corner or getting 50/50d after a knockdown. I think people just get mad as hell when they get their pages flipped because punishing grapplers is easy, just don't get read.
It's the 2 second animation. It's long enough to let the feeling of "why did I get hit by that?" sink in. When getting juggled by more damaging combo into oki you hope they drop it so no time to think too much about the mistake that led to the situation.
Potemkin Buster is ludicrously damaging because who stays on the ground for long in GG games?
Okay, story time:
When I was younger, I got Blazblue: Continuum Shift on the 3DS. I really liked the game, even though I had no idea how to play fighting games then and even now (somewhat). Just so happens my older brother was also a fan of the game.
So one day we got to play it together. I didn't really have a main- closest main I had was Lambda-11 because I thought she was cool. My older brother mained Iron Tager, the local grappler. He was way better than me at the game.
First match we did. Astral Finish.
i've never been the same since
Grappler players scare me.
As a grappler i would just like you to know I laugh like one of the hyenas off lion king every grab.
Anytime I hit a HPB/SPD, I take a shot of Elmer's, a huff of spray paint, and yell "LET'S GOOOOO!"
I play zoners so I LOVE fighting grapplers
👍
I love fighting grapplers for the sole reason I am one of them
It comes down to people disliking when they are forced out of their prefered playstyle. They can't play the same against Zoners and graplers as they do against most characters.
I realy dislike the whole "keep them shit" aproach because it's inherently unfair to players who like those playstyles.
No playstyle is inherently more important, the difference is simply the number of players who play basic bitch ass shoto or ungabung is higher so it's taken as "the correct way to enjoy the game". I'm an ungabunga rushdown Andy too but just imagine rushdown made intentionally dogshit to apease zoner players... sounds like shit, right?
As a zoner/grappler player, I second this. Rushdown and shoto players complain when they can't use their preferred playstyle against us, but we have to adapt all the time. There are a lot of matchups where I'll have to play more aggressively as a zoner, or I'll have to focus more on neutral as a grappler. It's just a part of the game.
Learning to adapt to different characters and playstyles is an important part of fighting games.
Little Mac and the hate for him. As a Link main, I hate playing against Mac because it is not fun to just camp him. Mac forces you to play at a distance because if you get to close he will usually win encounters and that becomes boring to play keep away all the time! (This comes from a Link main, the bow an arrow bomb bommer boi whose whole play style revolves around zoning) as a Mac main, this has been a true encounter of mine when I talk about Mac.
I mean if Baiken is allowed to force people to play differently then so are Grapplers and Zoners and Baiken is incredibly far from bad
One thing to consider is how insane they are without their weaknesses, think Abigail lol - but yeah I'm tired of it too, I'd like to see throwing increase in strength all across the board, even if that's a monkey paw wish
You don't like fighting grapplers because you think they are "cheating" by getting big damage with a single move while you spent all that time learning combos.
As i said before they can spew all day about playstyles when i legit take forever to wittle you down and one misread cost me the round im not going to pat you on the back even if ive gotten better there will always be a hate for grapplers always and ill be there to do it always
@@xChieftainxchill out lol
Hating grapplers or not depends on 2 things and 2 things only:
- The archetype the character YOU play (The player vs. the Grappler) falls into. (Shoto/All-Rounder, Rushdown, Zoner, etc)
- Skill issue.
Seriously, I've met more bad players that genuinely hate grapplers because they can't adapt than players that are good at the game despite the character they play.
grapplers players are too honest for most people. they tell you exactly what they want to do to you at the pick screen, and somehow you still fail to stop them.
Can confirm that landing the big dumb grab gives me a massive release of dopamine. It's like a drug.
Command grabs are better than sex.
@@tod5404 Oh god, wait til you try command grabs DURING sex.
You know, I feel Grapplers are misunderstood. People tend to think that they're villains. Big, bad bullies that shove you into a locker and take the healthbar your mom prepared for you.
This is, however, wrong. Grapplers are not the monsters of our time, they're not the horror villains the media wants you to believe they are. Quite the opposite, Grapplers are the shounen protagonists of the fighting game genre.
Every fight they walk in to, they know they start at a disadvantage. No game ever gave a Grappler a favorable round-start. And yet, they walk, always.
As soon at the battle starts, so does the opponents relentless, cowardly scheming. Instead of meeting the Grappler head-on, they abuse weaknesses, goes for unseen angles, or run away and hide behind walls of projectiles. Cheating and tricks are the tools of evil, tools every Grappler must endure and overcome. Not with tricks of their own, but with determination, grit, experience and heart. The entire world stands against them, yet relent is never even an option. Instead, they lab, they work for what they believe in, they clench their fists, takes the beating so nobody else has to, sacrifice their own life with super armor, all to seize that one moment to put evil where it belongs.
To the Potemkins, King of Dinosaurs, Iron Tagers, Cerebellas, Kings, Bowsers and Zangiefs of the world. You are not Jason Vorhees, Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers or Leatherface. You're All Might. You're Kazuma Kiryu. You're Kenshiro. You're Son Goku. Protecting what's important, with your own fists as hammers and your own chest as shields. Stand tall, and proud, Grapplers. As long as evil resides in online lobbies, there must always be a hulking giant, to grab it.
Good vid, btw
My Brother! 🙏
Grappler propaganda
its luck in a competitive game, fighting games already are full of "guess" situations and grapplers make it 10x worse, people that watch competitive games don't want to watch rock paper scissors fest
@@thegoldenphoenix3710 Absolutely not. Just cold, hard truth.
I tell you why fighting grapplers is frustrating, is cuz they require actual intelligence to play instead of game knowledge and reflexes.
All of a sudden the game is not based on who knows more obscure mechanics or interactions, not on who knows more the combos and so has better damage and not who has better reflexes and can just react of he makes a mistake. All of a sudden is all based on predicts and tactics.
Most fighting games play like single player. You interact just enough to get a confirm in neutral end then you are combining a dummy, and even in neutral getting that confirm os based on game knowledge, something that is inefficient to train trough trial and error ands so is studied trough wikis abd training dummies
Grapplers force you to actually think, reinvent, and not just apply what you learned in training. Suddenly it's actually a multiplayer game and most people don't want to play that, they just want to play a combo simulator to feel cool when they fo a long and complicated combo, even at the cost of not being able to do nothing while getting combos themselves
As someone who likes Oonga Boonga characters in games (Anna in Tekken, Joker/Catwoman in Injustice, El Fuerte in SF4), I actually really like fighting Grapplers. They are always a constant vibe-check to my oppression and a good check of my overall neutral. Liking the "risky rushdown", Grapplers rely more on Neutral then me and it's always nice as well considering how rare they are *online*.
Yeah, fighting a grappler for me is like trying to defuse a time bomb, which is way more fun than getting locked down under a barrage of projectiles
I love it when my friends complain about me powering through some of their best moves right before I kill them with the most aggressive hug known to mankind
I love grapplers for the satisfaction of landing a funny grab, and for the conditioning you’re able to do. Which in turn leads to more funny grabs.
The worst is fighting a grappler and not having combos. Imagine taking 40% from one move and every time you get a hit you only do 25%
"Why You HATE Fighting Grapplers"
Lack of skill, mostly.
This man needs to stop producing salt and start producing skill. Cause this man has skill issues.
there is no skill in tossing a coin, same to grapplers
@@nedthedog4574 Weird how you reply to so many comments in this comment section.
@@loomierome8411 isn't weird I simply don't think there is much to grapplers besides guessing, or is there any way to skillfully get out of their grasp without having to guess that Im missin ?
@@nedthedog4574Invincible reversals?
Just take the throw
Lets Eat some Glue and start our Grappler career!
The perfect video to watch during my dinner of elmers glue and Chipp main tears.
This video reads mainly that you don't have enough reference points for grapplers, especially older ones.
USFIV Zangief with 4 bars is the most terrifying thing. EX green hand -> red focus -> ultra was very common to see
I love watching your videos because sometimes i see something to do with baiken in the background and i notice its something i could implement into my gameplay, even during super random parts of the video
"this character plays different from me so myeh >:(" - every guilty gear strive player
"DNF Duel Grappler is a combo grappler"
I mean, yes. He's just on the opposite end of the spectrum. He's not "I do actual combos and incorporate a command grab", he's "My combos *are* command grabs."
As someone who plays grapplers fighting against grapplers is the best
I don't hate fighting grapplers, I hate fighting grappler PLAYERS. There's a difference.
3:22 is that ape escape i hear?
I've never played a 2D fighting game, but I assume grapplers in those games are like King from Tekken or Astaroth from Soul Calibur? Like, fundamentally there's not a lot of difference between a command grab or a combo starting low. You still need to predict and respond appropriately. All fighting games are about mixups.
2D and 3D grapplers are not terribly comparable, especially Tekken grapplers due to how throws are meant to be unreactable mixups in conjunction with strikes in 2D games rather than the "react to the hands" game of Tekken.
In 2D games, grapplers take the same idea and just increase the reward of the throw with better Oki, higher damage, etc alongside improved consistency with things like extra range and being untechable. These are typically high risk, high reward maneuvers as you are very punishable if the opponent guesses the throw correctly.
Meanwhile Tekken grapplers instead mix you up between different throw breaks, such as how King can mix iSW and Giant Swing which look nearly identical. While they're punishable when ducked, they aren't as risky to throw out since a teched throw doesn't lead to a punish.
In Tekken, I'd say a character with looping, unreactable mid/low mixup like Ganryu is most comparable to the strike/throw game of 2D grapplers.
I agree about the mix up part but the thing with 2D grappler is you can't tech like in tekken where you can learn how to break throws with match up knowledge and reactions.
It is more about anticipation hence why Gekko said they play arround your fear as they either hit you, counter hit or grab for at least 30% health rinse and repeat. they have an insane ability to steamroll and reverse the tide with just one touch which stresses out most people and the majority don't want to deal with it.
Imagine if you disable the teching mechanic against king and have to eat everything if he ever manage to make contact.
Man really said nothing for 1:30 then placed an ad
I enjoy taking people for a ride.
I love fighting grapplers as a rushdown player, I think the fact that we both want to get in makes things interesting. Kind of like in boxing or MMA when both fighters agree to slug it out in the middle of the ring/cage and see who is tougher. Granted there is a lot of risk deciding to slug it out with a grappler but I think that is akin to the risk in fighting a big puncher and having to outmaneuver their heavy blows.
“Surely he won’t throw rock a third time”
The issue for both beginner and intermediate players is that fighting a grappler is a giant knowledge check. At a high enough level, players are able to deal with this knowledge check and it simply becomes a skill issue for the loser.
But beginners often dont know how to stop someone from just walking at them. And more intermediate players probably know 1 way, but cant deal with the alternative: walking faster at them.
I found playing Strive Potemkin was a breeze until around floor 8 where people started thinking. Its all one massive knowledge check.
I know it's an old argument but my issue with grapplers is not trying to prevent their win condition, it's having very specific ways to respond once they grab you.
For instance, I was fighting a King player recently. He would use grapples but nothing game breaking until we'd end up always at 2 wins each with a tie breakint round.
Which he'd then just tank hits and spam a grapple, or combo into it through my block then would do the endless rolling combo on the ground which could deplete my HP to zero regardless of where it started.
I then proceeded to look up how to break it and learned that you cannot break that part; you have to accurately guess the initial grapple and hit the correct button at the exact right time to break before the roll happens.
Once he starts rolling your can't get out and it's basically an automatic win. I decided I just won't ever rematch King players anymore in ranked.
I genuinely cannot understand how this is a mechanic that can only be beaten if you spend tons of time practicing for that specific move or his other endless grabs and with only one response to each specific one.
Combined with King having a great moveset outside of grappling it just doesn't make sense to me. I really only beat them but rushing them down
My favorite characters are always rushdown with a bit of grappling (in smash someone like falcon), I generally want to go fast but I really want to have that pressure be based more around hit grab mixup than just on hi low mixup
This made me realize this is my favorite character type too
(I play sol in all ggs, falcon in all smashes, and Alex in sf)
AHAHHAHAHA hit grab, that's hilarious sounds so dumb? say Strike/Throw, god I hope you don't say hit/grab in real life, that would be embarrassing ahahahaha
@@koa_dominos2172 God fkin bless ❤ there are dozens of us
10:00 You're just... describing 50/50s and rps situations? Which good rushdowns and shotos also do all the time? Except grapplers have to actually touch you with a command grab to earn them.
There wasn't really a rebuttal of the common argument "you're just mad because big number and they're making you play differently than you normally would" and in fact was felt just like a "yes in fact I do hate that." Idk maybe I missed something.
Surprised he didn't show Abigail when talking about big bodies
Hey Gekko! Probabily you know, but i will leave the suggestion here, Lord Knight made a video making a tier list of Fighting Games Archetypes. I find funny that sub archetypes change the names in some places lol, like you're calling the "Combo Grapler", while LK use the name "Pixie Grapler". Always when people talk to arechetype those things happen, and i alway be like: I wish i could now every single Acrhetype, even that is not even possible to tell since there are like archetypes exclusive of one game or franchise, but i would be glad if you could help me someday with that. Anyway, sorry if i wroted something not gramatcly acurat, english is not my first lenguage.
As a Julia main in Tekken I spam the absolute crap out of mad axes, It can be buffered out of everything tick throws, Backdashes, side steps. Her gameplan is different now but in Tekken 3 and tag 1 she had absurd damage from counterhit pokes so naturally you don't want to press buttons. That made her surprisingly large amount of throws even more scary (She also had a safe mid launcher to worry about so no ducking).
I miss that Julia I know she's strong in T7 but it's not the same.
i think it's funny that gekko think's 250 lbs is a standard weight for a traditional grappler
i think my biggest issue with grapplers is that they need WAY fewer interactions to win (ideally, anyway) and a lot of times you're caught in an animation that's just long enough to make me want to die. doesn't help that it's especially demoralizing to be like one or two frames off from linking a button and then BAM butterchurned into oblivion
I love fighting grapplers! There's an easy secret, just play a grappler and suddenly they're fun to fight!
As a grappler, fighting another grappler is the most fun thing in the world
how to fight grappler
1: do not leave fullscreen
2: do not go into the corner
gg
Why players love maining Potemkin:
BUSTIN BUSTIN BUSTIN BUSTIN BUSTIN BUSTIN BUSTIN MAKES ME FEEL GOOD FEEL GOOD FEEL GOOD FEEL GOOD FEEL GOOD YEAH YEAH YEAH
Damn the start just hits deep
Great writing and video my guy!
I play Sol and Pot is my favorite matchup
It's a true duel of the minds, three round of pure psychological warfare.
No bullshit, no setplay, no 4 way mixup in the middle of an hour long blockstring
Just me, my opponent, and the soil
Rest assured that you're putting in way more mental effort on your side than they are on theirs.
You: performing astrophysics to anticipate every option while honing your reactions to punish all that you can.
Them: haha joystick 360s go brrrr
@A Fox It sounds like you haven't played that match-up. Sol's pressure on Potemkin is very hard for the latter to break due to his poor frame data, making taking your turn back more difficult on Potemkin. You don't just spin the stick to win, you have to know exactly when the other player left themselves too minus to contest your command grab to get in on them
I AM the Grappler
I HATE FIGHTING GRAPPLERS. BECAUSE IM A GRAPPLER TOO! THEY NEVER SAVE ANY CRAYONS FOR ME
Shout out to my favorite fighting game character, Beowulf from Skullgirls. Playing him is like snorting paint and running through a Walmart completely naked
Cool vid but i don't think you really encapsulated why people dislike it, just that you think it's not fun - then sort of muddied the waters with lumping in oki on cmd grabs or just having a cmd grab being a defining factor. Sol, Bridget, Faust, Leo etc all have cmd grabs that put them in muchhhh better oki positioning than pot.
Firstly, people who dislike are sometimes memeing. Some say it cos they wanna follow the trend after playing against like... one grappler their whole life.
Outside of that... You sort of glossed over the concept of 'being predicable'. Thats what i think makes people hate them the most. That you can be predicted, and it makes you feel dumb. Getting hit by 3 PBs in a row hurts because you made 3 wrong guesses and think they've got you figured out making it feel like it's hopeless. The looping pressure isn't quite true either. Iirc, Gief SPD > dash > SPD isn't real and Pots PB > HF > PB isn't real on most ranges. Watch some itabashi or snakeyez matches and you'll see how good they make grapplers look because of reads and conditioning over Oki, setplay or whatever.
Ultimately the only way you'll *fully* understand why people hate grapplers, and if their assumptions are true or false, is by actually playing as a grappler to see past the surface level stuff of slow buttons / slow walk speed / short combos. Etc.
The part where he monologues about nightmares and how “we’re so sure about the past and present” I got a shot of existential fear about “how do we KNOW about the past besides books and archives?” Just something I thought I’d share
Why you hate fighting grapplers in two parts:
1. Skill
2. Issue
You have motivated me to try out manon and geif when sf6 comes out. Kekw
There's no feeling like being zoned out by a grappler. *cries in Giovanna main*
What are you even talking about??
what
@@evilded2 I'm talking about a time when a Potemkin zoned me out, because I was playing Giovanna, and I rely on close ranged mixups, but he has big buttons
@@evilded2 Zoning with fS and 5H is definitely something Pot does. It's how you win against May straight up
How to fight:
Zoners: Rush em.
Grapplers: Jump Rushem.
Puppet characters: Hit Puppet, Rush em.
Rushdown: Range attacks, Rush em.
Happy Chaos: Rush em. Do Not Wallbreak (Unless guarenteed kill)
your salt really improves the taste of this glue
You need to think different when fighting these guy which is another fun thing about grappler
Hot Take: I find grapplers the most honest archetype. And I don’t even play them I just sympathize with them in regards to zoning. The more reliant a character is to zoning the less honest they seem to me.
heads up, Street Fighter 6 is estimated to have half of its entire roster be made of characters that have a command grab. GRAPPLERS UNITE!!
Did Justin Wong secretly make this?
Thunder in KI my beloved, I love how his Instinct is giving him the best dash in the game
He goes from a damage truck to a damage truck with rocket engines attached
Surprised about the lack of mention of Blazblue's Iron Tager whose most damaging command grab is a reversal super and who can put a magnet effect on the opponent via a projectile (or some of his normals) to make his effective grab range the entire screen
Take a shot every time he uses the Zangief EX Grab on Alex clip
this channel definitely deserves more subs.
You leave my grapplers ALONE!!!!!! They're precious, big creatures that just want to hug and love you.
Watched this video with a friend and he had a panic attack during the intro. 10/10 vid
I love playing characters where you won't really know if you're gonna win or not. The characters where anyone who sees them will go "I got this" and then they get hit a couple times by the wrong moves and rage quit.
Words of someone who doesn't like to think and adapt.
Zoners and Grapplers both make you change how you play, and people generally don't like that.
So in response to video title: Use your thinkmeat or hold the command grab.
Potemkin mains are full of gilk (glue and milk)
I don't mind most of the characters I use in alex in sf5 kof shermie and kod are grapplers and soon in sf6 manon though shes a combo grappler with a power up gimmick. Incinaroar is pretty fun to use. The only people who get pissed are the shotos, ungabungas and rushdown player because they have to chill and slow down.
me clicking the video cuz i just wanna know why people hate them 😅
Grapplers are peak, i want to hug em all (yes this will kill me)
Someone got command grabbed one too many times
I love playing grapplers, I get to punish rushers when they whiff, I get to scare tf outta zoners, and when I meet a fellow Grappler? Oh, it’s a dance, a beautiful dance of Busters and Heat Extends
Let's appreachiet how this men putted together those words in intro:D