Here's the problem with what you just said about God marrying Israel. Yes, God did marry Israel, who rejected him and committed adultery against him. Scripture is clear on this. God did not dishonor the marriage; God was not unfaithful: the Jews were. Jesus came first to the Jews to reconcile the elect unto him. The rest rejected and killed him, just like they killed the prophets God had sent before (Matthew 21:37). In Matthew 21, Jesus cursed the fig tree (symbolic of Israel), saying it will NEVER again bear fruit. Matthew 21:19-21 (KJV) And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. The "mountain" (symbolic of the old Jewish/Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system, which was fulfilled in Jesus' sacrifice) was "moved into the sea" (a reference to the diaspora), which occurred in AD70 with the destruction of Jerusalem. GOD DIVORCED PHYSICAL ISRAEL, REMARRIED SPIRITUAL ISRAEL That marriage to the first woman, those who were genetically Jews ended in divorce. The woman was put away at the fulfillment of the old covenant, beginning with Jesus' ministry and ending with the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in AD70, which was when the Christians who had remained faithful and remembered Jesus' warnings, did not come down from the housetops, but immediately and with haste, fled to the hills and escaped, while the unbelieving Jews were killed or taken and sold into slavery. This is all historically recorded for those who are willing to study history. The new covenant is also a marriage, and it is a spiritual marriage, just like the first. God cannot be married to two women at once, for that is against His law. Unless you are willing to say that the new covenant is already in place, then frankly, you are not saved and do not even understand what Jesus' words, "You must be born again," mean. New Jerusalem is the spiritual city, the Holy city come down from heaven. Those who have been born again, have received the first part of the kingdom, the spiritual kingdom, and are already reigning with Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. If you doubt or do not understand that Jesus is sitting now on the Throne at the right hand of the Father as the Scriptures inform us, you will not see this: There is no such thing as a king without a kingdom. Jesus, as King of Kings, is not a king without a kingdom. He does have a kingdom, and it is called the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, or the New Jerusalem, or the Holy city, at it exists at present. This is the spiritual reality of the gospel, first understood by Abraham, unto whom this understanding was first granted, and his faith was accounted to him as righteousness, accepting the promise to live forever in the kingdom, by God's grace. Today, Abraham is physically dead, but spiritually alive in the kingdom of God, the New Jerusalem, as are all born again believers, currently living in the first portion of their eternity with Christ. I did not always understand this. I was originally a pre-trib rapture pre-millennialist because, unfortunately, I was taking the word of preachers without doing as the Bereans were commended for doing, proving all things by searching the Scriptures to see if these things were true. I was mostly just reading, but not studying, as the apostle Paul advised Timothy to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." This issue warrants study, because it affects one's world view and understanding of what is really going on, including a whole lot of deception by the enemy. Pray and ask for understanding and for the revelation ("apocalypse") of Jesus Christ about the spiritual kingdom of God, of which Jesus said, Matthew 13:9-17 (KJV) Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) "...The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. When is the kingdom of God within you? When you become saved -- born again -- and it is an eternal kingdom. This is why Jesus said to "preach the gospel to EVERY creature," including the Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Atheists. Jesus made it clear that there is only one way unto salvation, which is through Him. John 14:6. There is not another way for someone just because they live in a physical land called Israel, a land created, by the way, by God-hating Zionists, the spiritual descendants of those Jesus addressed in John 8:44, Revelation 2:9 and 3:9. John 8:42-47 (KJV) Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
LXX Researcher why not go on further in Jeremiah to the 12th verse? 12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever. 13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord. 14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion" also read Hosea the Lord never leaves his people. if he did, then we are lost too.
LXX Researcher I don't think you're right. as much as you seem to have studied this, it doesn't add up. are you suggesting that the people in Israel now are not a fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy? I don't know if I'm understanding you right.
LXX Researcher so if Ezekiel's prophecies does not go beyond the first century and are only parables. so why is the prophecies of Jeremiah different? I agree that these prophecies must be looked at from the perspective in that time in Israel but some of it goes beyond their day. you can not pick and choose verses from the bible and link it to what your beliefs are.. you must read the whole chapter or the whole book to understand. Berean? is that SDA? .
I kissed dispensationalism goodbye. It is nothing more than fear based charismatic mayhem. Jesus is redeeming his people and culture by faith in his son.
My point is that Dispensationalism did not arrive out of the Charismatic movement, nor is Dispensationalism some kind of litmus test to determine whether a community is "Charismatic". But, you are correct that there Charismatic communities which hold to Dispensationalism. But that doesn't make Dispensationalism a "Charismatic" theology. I believe that the Dallas Theological Seminary is a strong-hold of Dispensationalism (hardly a Charismatic group) However, I have done some more reading and it appears that you correct on this point, the Pentecostals and many branch off Charismatic denominations are Dispensationalist. But, [from Wikipedia] "Dispensationalism developed as a system from the teachings of John Nelson Darby (1800-82) who strongly influenced the Plymouth Brethren of the 1830s in Ireland and England" John Nelson Darby was not a Charismatic. Thanks and be blessed.
I’m over here in Tyler, TX and everyone I come in contact with is going to be a die hard, hard headed, my pastor says so kind of dispensationalist and being that this topic ties directly into our involvement with Israel and all the war they want to keep dragging us into this topic is going to come up so I’m trying to learn as much about both views as possible, it’s looking like to me the covenant school of of thought is the most probable but if that’s the case there are literally millions of people in my state alone who are for lack of a better word “Wrong”
Galatians 3:28 (AKJV) 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
@@christinetranchell4224 these men are not debating if there is a different way of salvation for Jews or Gentiles. They both agree that anyone that has salvation only have salvation through Jesus Christ. What they are debating is whether or not God in addition to the spiritual salvation of anyone in Christ still has a Covenant with the ethnic Jews as far as possessing the land that was physically promised to Abraham. They both agree that there is a higher spiritual interpretation that children of Abraham are Heirs of the promises in Christ but Gary as a preterist believes the spiritual fulfillment in Christ Alone is the promise but Doctor Mike believes in addition to that that there must still be a physical possession of the land by ethnic Israelites. Or is it both. The Bible already proves that all the physical promises to Abraham were fulfilled during the reign of Solomon oh, the doctor Mike believes that it should be a Perpetual promise and that they will always and forever possess the land. Gary believes that the higher fulfillment will be in the heaven and the new Earth.
@@christinetranchell4224 In context, Galatians 3:28 makes perfect sense, but when it is quoted in isolation, the word "neither" can have any sense one desires it to have. Only "one" sense of the word is implied in Galatians, though.
Michael Brown did what he normally does. He rapid fired a mountain of verses and just assumed his position was consistent with them. Demar actually made an argument.
I really don’t know how after knowing and learning so much of the Bible and hearing people like Gary DeMars argument and not be convinced of postmill and prederist position. He is amazing
I love Dr. Brown, but Dr. Dmar did a fantastic job exegeting the Scriptures. I believe it is are you is far stronger, every answer, statement or rebuttal came from the Scriptures. Well done
The only regret I have after these 25 years of being saved is that I would’ve known what Dr. Demar was saying. Especially the part about the church began with Israel and the mystery was revealed that the Gentiles would be one with them. There was is NO replacement theology.
Same here. I wish I had studied post mil 25 years ago. There’s so many scriptures that I’ve been missing simply because I dismissed them to some ethereal future state.
Hey Wally, would love to chat. So I think that the error from believing Israel is through from not properly starting with a solid foundation for the direction of prophetic Scriptures. I wrote an article recently on prophecy in the Pentateuch and that is the foundation for what I think. It is just a blog and I am not fishing for clicks or anything, I get no monetary gain from people reading it. Here it is: endtimes150.com/prophecy-in-the-pentateuch/
The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, with the exact text from Jeremiah 31 bracketed by two verses making it plain the New Covenant was fulfilled by Christ. We find the Church included in the New Covenant in Hebrews 12:22-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and it is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20. On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah chapter 31. In Romans 11 Paul used the Olive tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. Paul said the branches broken off can be grafted back into the tree through faith in Christ. This is the word "so" of Romans 11:26, which is the manner of their salvation. It is not the timing of their salvation. There is no plan B of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church. All of the Israelites were not "partially" blinded. Some have been blinded and some have not, just as Paul describes the remnant of his time in Romans 11:1-5. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant confirmed in Blood for all races of people at Calvary (Matthew 26:28). If we want modern Jews to be saved we need to share with them "the suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel chapter 9, which reveal that the baby born in a manger is the New Covenant Messiah promised in the Hebrew scriptures.
@@jcismyall It is just like the others with premil/dispensational/ futurist eschatology who upload videos and turn off the comments section. Silence. No answer. Just call you a liar....hit and run..... drive-by poster who will only hear his/her traditional doctrines.
Love Uncle Gary. During the pandemic, he convinced me of partial preterism. If Jesus tells the Sanhedrin that they'll see the Son of Man coming on the clouds and Revelation says that was happening soon and "soon" was relative to Jesus' day, I (a Christian of almost 20 years) had to ask "What else was Jesus right about?"
I heard him on the bible answer mans podcast out of luck...and started researching this stuff....and have came to the conclusion you have...the one that got me was God told daniel to seal up the books...but told john not to seal up revelation because it must soon come to pass....that and his breakdown of Matt Chapter 24...
It proves that a real understanding of scripture is crucial in standing against false doctrine. People can find it easy to follow lies when they haven’t studied scripture. Gary de Mar gives a very clear exposition of Gods Word. He explains that the prophecies that the dispensationalists say are yet to be fulfilled, have already been fulfilled!
The church was in the wilderness long before it was at Jerusalem! Acts 7:37-38 KJV This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. [38] This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Would you object if I started to collect your checks at work? Would it be acceptable if I reasoned that, in taking the money which you had earned, I was not claiming to REPLACE you, but that I am your FULFILLMENT? This is no better than the distortion of words by claiming not replacement but expansion. Honesty is a mark of guidance by the Holy Spirit.
As a recovering dispensationalist, the problem I see in Dr Brown's argument, like many dispensationalists is that they set up a strawman of the opposing view and then dismantle that. I'm not sure if 'replacement theology' is a term used by prponants. Perhaps it has been but it's not Dr DeMar's vew because it's not the view or terminology of the bible. Strawmen arguments are good for those who want to win debates but not for those who are seeking truth. I suspect that is why some comments say that they ignored each others strong points. What I found is that Reconstructionists such as DeMar understand dispensationalism very well but disp's do not understand other points of view, certainly not that of the preterists.
+Nathan Ellery Disp needs comfirmation of it's view about the physical land promise in the NT and it's completely absent. When Paul refers to God's promise to Abraham he says he didn't receive it but he looked to a spiritual city. Hebrews, the letter to Jews never supports a literal return to the land. Instead the NT authors speak of 'the mystery' that the prophets couldn't see. No the mystery is not the church separate from Israel. Never mentioned! Don't make things up. The mystery is specifically stated that believing gentiles are to be grafted into Israel and become inheritors of the promise. Disp's and their focus on Israel is all OT (note how often they quote from it and how little from the NT). It ignores God's latest revelation in the NT.
+Nathan Ellery As someone who was once a deacon in a Dispensational church, I would like to thank you for having the courage to throw off John Nelson Darby's doctrine, that has spread like a virus through the evangelical Church in America. When you have some time, watch the RUclips video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology" to see the origin of the doctrine. Also, take a look at the links at the top of that page. You may want to spend some time taking a look at "New Covenant Theology" which was taught by the Apostle Paul. Both Reformed Covenant Theology and Dispensational Theology have problems at Galatians chapter 3. The Law was added 430 years "after" the Promise to Abraham and that Promise was made to only Christ.
This is so true. Ive seen many debates and have been part of many myself with them, and have yet to hear a dispensationalist properly summarize the amill/ post mill or historic premill view. Total ignorance of church history and total unwillingness to investigate positions outside their own. Maybe _that_ is an over-generalization but again, this has been my experience. Most frustrating is the false dilemma advanced by these folks, namely, that the only eschatological scheme that accounts for God’s promises to ethnic Israel is dispensationalism. That is just PATENTLY FALSE. But through these “fair speeches they deceive the hearts of the simple.” Btw, I don’t think it’s a salvation issue but I do think that views on eschatology can so greatly either hinder or help one’s soteriology that errant eschatology _can_ truly damage some person’s faith, to the point of unbelief. I’ve witnessed it.
Nathan, I've only listened to a half an hour of this so far, but I caught this. Also, I think Michael is the most objective and knowledgeable teacher I listen to, but he seems to have the same problem with this issue that every Messianic believer I've come across has.
Michael Cobb God has not broken His promises to the Jewish people. He promised to bring them back to their land and being faithful, He has done that. He promised them a Messiah, and after hardening their hearts, He has promised to take off their blinders to behold Jesus as their Messiah. God’s promises in the Old Testament were mostly unconditional. If God broke His promises to the Jewish people, how could you trust Him to keep His promises to you?
I pray that the Lord bless these two wonderful brothers! No matter what position you hold, share the truth that Jesus is Lord with everyone! He is Lord and he is coming again.
I once held to Dr. Brown's position. But I now find it biblically untenable. God's covenant with Abraham is to his seed (singular) not to his seeds (plural). And the singular seed of Abraham to whom the promises to Abraham pertain is Christ. The spiritual seed of Abraham is found solely today within the Church of Jesus Christ. This is all that matters, as racial birth or appearance carry no favour with God. It is they alone that are “blessed” and are now part of the eternal “promises made.” We have moved from the natural to the spiritual with Christ and the new covenant. God's people are no longer restricted to a natural nation, but rather a spiritual nation. The old covenant has been superseded by a better covenant, an eternal one. Under the new covenant, there is only one seed today that matters - the seed of faith. The rest belong to their father the devil. Galatians 3:12-14, 16 proves that there is on one seed: “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith ... Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds (plural), as of many; but as of one (single), and to thy seed, which is Christ.”
Paul Malcomson: You are correct, but only HALF correct. The promise has two parts, and Gal 3 demonstrates that the Gospel (seed singular) is "In your seed (singular) shall all nations be blessed." BUT the previous section of the promise includes, the land, kings, kingdoms, nations, company of nations, they will possess the gates of their enemies, etc. So BOTH sections, the promise to the Nation (plural seed) and the promise of Christ the singular seed.
ABSOLUTELY HANDS down the most Christian DISCUSSION I have ever heard..This is NOT a typical debate but a logical...no winner take ALL talk..and no SELF DEFENSIVE insecurities ...which on issues like this...it is VERY important. God does keep His Covenants...We ALL accept THAT !
The church is not just a parenthesis in God's plan, it was His plan from the beginning. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, wasn't He? If Israel would not have rejected their Messiah, no one, neither Jew or Gentile, would have been saved! Aren't you glad they rejected Him? Sad day for our Lord, but it was to the benefit of all, Jew and Gentile. There is simply no way the church age was "plan B" in God' mind.
Saying thank YAHUAH that Israel rejected YAHUSHA Messiah gave gentiles (other nations) a chance to receive Him is like saying it couldn't have happened if Israel (a nation of disciples) hadn't accepted Messiah and carried truth to the world. Do you see the the contradiction that YAHUAH has to succeed based on history over Scripture.
@@arthurbostic1963 You can be creative but Christ had to die, and not be made King over Israel. He told the Disciples such. History is not over scripture because history is God's plan in action, even from the very beginning and through the fall.
@@joshuakriese4604 I read it that he is affirming DeMar's position. The Plan B idea is essentially Disp. view which is of course not a sound position. Dr Brown may have a more mature, more reasonable understanding and position than most Disp but other Disp have authored the Plan B idea. Part of the issue is the understanding of 'church' which is not a religious word, but means a gathering of likeminded people, common purpose. It's the same word translated congregation in the OT. Disp have made church have a meaning it doesn't have. God's purpose was not to create something separate, a 2nd bride (woman on the side) but to bring Gentiles into His Church, his people. It's the elephant that Disp miss when they imagine two separate peoples. And it's very clearly laid out. Eph 2:9-19 (Eph 3:6) This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel , members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.(Rom 9:7) Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. (inc Gentiles!) (Gal 3:7) Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. (inc Gentiles) (Gal 3:28,29) There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.(inc Gentiles) (John 8:33-47) (1 Pet 2:9,10) But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (inc Gentiles)
@@NathanEllery I asked if you saw the contradiction that YAHUAH has to succeed based on history over scripture? Evidently you didn't read what I wrote or are so into Catholicism's revisions of scripture it prevents you from understanding we are saying the same thing how be it with different words. I prefer the original over Catholicism's words.
@@mahyakc8369 all the promises were in Christ 2 Cor 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you [g]by us, even [h]by me and Silvanus and Timothy, was not yea and nay, but in him is yea. 20 For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 21 Now he that establisheth us with you [i]in Christ, and anointed us, is God; 22 [j]who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Acts 13:14 But they, passing through from Perga, came to Antioch of Pisidia; and they went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. 16 And Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken: 17 The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they sojourned in the land of Egypt, and with a high arm led he them forth out of it. 18 And for about the time of forty years [d]as a nursing-father bare he them in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, he gave them their land for an inheritance, for about four hundred and fifty years: 20 and after these things he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they asked for a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king; to whom also he bare witness and said, [e]I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after my heart, who shall do all my [f]will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to promise brought unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus; 24 when John had first preached [g]before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John was fulfilling his course, he said, What suppose ye that I am? I am not he. But behold, there cometh one after me the shoes of whose feet I am not worthy to unloose. 26 Brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and those among you that fear God, to us is the word of this salvation sent forth. 27 For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, 33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, [h]Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, [i]I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David. 35 Because he saith also in another psalm, [j]Thou wilt not give thy Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had [k]in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 but he whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, brethren, that through this man is proclaimed unto you remission of sins: 39 and by him every one that believeth is justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you which is spoken in the prophets: 41 [l]Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and [m]perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you.
@@mahyakc8369 no. it's Christ only. there are 2 groups of people, thise in Adam or those in Christ. no 3rd group called national Israel Eph 2:11 So then, remember that at one time you were Gentiles in the flesh-called “the uncircumcised” by those called “the circumcised,” which is done in the flesh by human hands. 12 At that time you were without the Messiah, excluded from the citizenship of Israel, and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus, you who were far away have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah. 14 For He is our peace, who made both groups one and tore down the dividing wall of hostility. In His flesh, 15 He made of no effect the law consisting of commands and expressed in regulations, so that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, resulting in peace. 16 He did this so that He might reconcile both to God in one body through the cross and put the hostility to death by it.[d] 17 When the Messiah came, He proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints, and members of God’s household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21 The whole building, being put together by Him, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord. 22 You also are being built together for God’s dwelling in the Spirit. Eph 3:1 For this reason, I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles- 2 you have heard, haven’t you, about the administration of God’s grace that He gave to me for you? 3 The mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have briefly written above. 4 By reading this you are able to understand my insight about the mystery of the Messiah. 5 This was not made known to people[a] in other generations as it is now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit:
DR Brown, it is eisegesis to read the OT w/o hearing what the NT says. The promise was to abraham and his Seed (Christ). all in Christ are heirs to the promise to abraham. land? Rom 4:13 says the promise was the whole world. types and shadows are gone
Shalom Aleichem bruce mercer Blameless & Shameless, nor does it help anyone to read the B`rit Mila with a "greek mind". I do not assume sir, you do, please bear with me. For example, so many confusion comes from the fact that most of my brothers and sisters in Yeshua ha Mashiach think that a new day starts at midnight and forget that Scripture is written with the understanding that a new day starts at dawn. You cannot just change that. In acts 20:7-16 Paul traveled on yom rishon (sunday) not on yom sheni (monday). Acts 20:7 King James Version (KJV) 7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. Read this carefully and know a new day starts at sundown. Paul traveled on a sunday. No rest on a sunday for him. I have more examples of "the greek mind" being not the way to read Holy Scripture. (Excuse my poor English, i am Dutch)
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 Shalom, the writings are in a Hebrew mindset, yes, but the minds reading those words often not. That is what i was trying to point out with my example. Do you, sir read the Bible in the understanding that a new day starts at midnight? Because if you do your exegesis of certain texts is going to be faulty.
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 Around and about, haha... What are your thoughts about the fact that Paul and the disciples came together to break bread after sundown (start of "sunday") he spoke till midnight and traveled on a sunday? No sunday rest for Paul. Paul and the other disciples were Torah observant jews.
Two class acts in this debate. It’s so refreshing to see two people debate in a Godly manner. I personally don’t see this as a huge issue, but totally understand why each is so passionate about it. God bless both of you as you fulfill God’s will for your life.
I don't debate in a Godly manner. The fact that many so called Christians have no concern for God's chosen ones will be a witness against them some day. People who endorse replacement theology are not Christians they work for someone named Satan and I don't care pius and holy they appear on T.V. To make a claim that God is replacing his chosen ones with the church is zenith of arrogance and hubris. The so called church in America has treasure trove of dirty little secrets. One of those secrets is their hatred of the Jews. We won't touch on all the other ones right now. Our Messiah taught us everything done in secret will shouted from the roof tops. Replacement theology is nothing more than wicked people putting lipstick on a pig then asking you isn't she pretty? What is behind this so called theology is their intense hatred of the Jews. And since they are a bunch of sissy ass little cowards they don't enough testosterone to simply admit that they are indeed simply continuing Martin Luther and Adolph Hitler's hatred of the Jews. Now to sell this vile slop to the Joe's and Jane's sitting in the pews they had come up with a seemingly benign reason for their unrestrained hatred for the Jews. They were not about to go in front of their congregations and say we are hate mongers and the people we hate are the Jews. They will only admit that in private. But remember everything done in secret will be shouted from the roof tops. So they came with the idea of calling this a "theology". This NOT A THEOLOGY THIS IS THEIR COVER UP FOR THEIR HATRED FOR THE JEWS. I know they wear expensive suits and careful to never let their vile little tongues offer hate speech. They even use 5 and 6 syllable words to explain their "theology" All this is ,is putting lipstick on a pig. They use the same filthy tactics Richard Nixon used to cover up Watergate. These people are cowardly and wicked. Their multi syllable words and their secret hatred of the Jews will be witnesses against them when they encounter our Messiah
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
Why? Dr. DeMar is a so-called Reconstructionist/Dominionist. Reconstructionists support the full Christian takeover of the world through stealth and deceit. Ultimately, Dominionists ARE anti-semites, with all of Dr. DeMar's pretensions to the contrary.
@@yesnomaybeso5755 that's the point michael brown insists and you don't understand. Jews were scathered, but the elect are gathered? Flawed hermeunetics
@@vitorherold it’s not flawed at all. You don’t seem to understand that God is only going to gather those who produce fruit. All unbelieving Jews that reject the gospel are rejected as well as all unbelieving gentiles. So all gentiles and Jews that believe are gathered into the true Israel of God.
The Levitical priesthood is known and has kept its identity miraculously. It has also been proven scientifically through DNA testing. Some Believe that Y'shua is the Messiah.
@@valerierosproy1255 How much DNA? Do we do NAZI racial tests to verify their genetics? Identity as you put it is subject to a ethnic purity test which is just absurd.
@@gideondavid30 there is a group of levites that are ashkenazi and have kept themselves from mixture. They are already waiting for the rebuilding if the temple .
@@annelid4728 Jews with C,K or L for their last name are the descendants of Aaron. They are Levites. When you say Jews lie a lot what do you mean? Are they more wicked than other people?
exactly. are we not the body of Christ? is it not the Spirit of God who works through us? by this principle are we not able to bind and loose what is in heaven on earth?
In Christ, indeed. But Jews have to be restored to their messiah, something that still hasn't happened. Nonetheless, this WILL happen just before the ressurection. And with the ressurection (ezekiel 37, rev 20, thessalonians) the physical regathering in the land.
+Kevin Alawine - So you didn't listen to the first part when Brown is giving an amazing survey of God's promises of faithfulness to Israel throughout Scripture? Or are you just hearing what you want to hear?
+Joseph Knight Thanks for your kindly worded reply. It just seems that those who think Israel has been replaced by the Church ignore the fact that the OT prophetic Scriptures are speaking specifically to ethnic Israel. For example the Zechariah and Ezekiel passages that talk about Jesus coming and placing His literal foot on the Mt. of Olives and it splitting literally to save Israel from literal military enemies, but then somehow the Israel that is mentioned in that passage is then somehow an allegorical Israel? I see the events of Revelation as the culmination of the age and the end of the story of the family of Israel...
+John O'Donnell In Romans chapter 11 the Apostle Paul makes it clear that there is no such thing as a "Gentile Church". The wild Olive tree branches of the Gentiles were grafted in among the Israelite branches that believed in Christ. The unbelieving Israelite branches were broken off, but can be grafted back in through faith in Christ. There is now no salvation outside of the Church, which is the Olive tree. One of the biggest problems in interpretation occurs in Romans 11:26 when the word "so" (Greek-houto), which is an adverb of manner, is replaced by the word "then", which is an adverb of time. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Blood Covenant of Christ which is "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6. This covenant is not waiting on a future fulfillment. The Deliverer came out of Zion about 2,000 years ago. Another problem is the idea of Israel's blindness. All of Israel cannot be "partially blinded", because then none of them could see that Jesus was the Messiah. Instead, some of the Israelites were blinded and some of the Israelites were not blinded. Consider supporting Jews for Jesus or Word of Messiah Ministries, who are taking the Gospel to the Jewish people now. We also need to thank the Jewish Christians, like the speaker here, who are spreading the Gospel to the Jewish people. We want to graft the branches broken off, back into the Olive Tree.
+Joseph Knight However, God gave them specific promises about that land and that all Israel would be saved. The big issue here is about whether God keeps His promises. I already know that "well, the New Covenant supercedes and adds to the Old" however, it is GOD who said it. For the sake of Abraham, He DOES care about the children of Israel still. Anything else is replacement theology.
Now this was a very interesting debate well more like a serious discussion I've heard in awhile and good formatted also, this dose have one to really think about what we hear in main stream Christianity and what to the rite interpretation of the words used, will watch this one again for better understanding myself, thank you Dr Brown and Dr DeMar.
Orthodox Preterists such as DeMar and Stephen Sizer are very straightforward in their approaches to eschatology. I rarely see a preterist use ad hominem tactics or condescending humor to make their point. They let scripture interpret scripture. Brown condescends and loves his belittling gotcha catch phrases. Many dispensationalists go further with uncalled for attacks against anyone presenting evidence against their position. To an unbiased observer, it appears the dispensationalists feel they need such uncivil tactics to make up for their weak positions. A strong position needs no such things to make their points.
Ortodox Preterists are one of the reason for the blindness of the church, to identify the false "Jehova witnesses " aka watchtower. When Isaiah 43:10 clearly speaks to the people of Israel.
"This underscores everything I've said that 'the spiritual promises are spiritually fulfilled and the physical promises must be physically fulfilled'" BUT Jesus HIMSELF rejects this line of flaw reasoning by simply asking: *For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Mark **8:36* you strain at the gnat ignoring the certain death of choking on the camel! What gift is a carnal real-estate transaction to those who are perishing?? What favor can God possibly be doing by brokering real-estate for the eternally damned??
I agree. Quoting Spurgeon and Lloyd Jones was a fallacy called "appeal to authority." I appreciate both of those men but there's no higher authority than Scripture (and both those potent preachers would agree with that).
New Covenant Whole Gospel: Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him. He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14. Awaken Church to this truth. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis? Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart. Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (Acts 2:36)
And what life do the branches have without the root? Who is the root, again? All branches are one in Christ, and without Christ, you can have your physical blessings, but they will not outlast the heavenly ones.
There is no doubt that the scriptures teach that the church is the Israel of promise. However the confusion for most people is about the prophecy of the end times. I will have to do more studies on this. But so far from what I can perceive... it’s that in the last days a lot of Jews will turn to Jesus. Not all but a lot. That is to say whoever God preserved till that day.
It only took 60 seconds for DeMar to reach for a non-biblical source to prop up his position. That is so Calvinist its disturbingly normal practice. But its from Roman Catholicism and used by Jean Cauvin and the tradition is dutifully carried on by his followers to this very day.
@@ReformedGibberish5881 Oh, thou self deluded one! How quick you are to make snap assessments knowing nothing about the background of the poster of the information. But no shock, its how Jean Cauvin operated in ignorance and extreme narcissism enforced by the sword and torture chamber. I'm still trying to find the passage where Jesus commanded his followers to have their own personal torturer.
@@ReformedGibberish5881 Why?? Its not "feelings" that I base anything I post, its all direct experience of years of 1st hand observing Purest Calvinism in action behind the curtain (and masks) AND dogged research digging through piles of lies to find the truth of Jean Cauvin. As Jesus declared...can a rotten tree produce good fruit?
Dr. Brown keeps pressing this point about not being able to have, as he said, "part one literal and part two spiritual without making God's word gibberish" 51:54 Well, why not? Jesus told the woman at the well that they would no longer worship in Jerusalem but from now on they would worship in spirit and in truth. In a way, that is the whole point of the New Covenant we go from gathering around a physical temple in Jerusalem to our bodies being the temple or as Peter states it, "a spiritual house." We go from sacrificing literal lambs to offering our bodies as living sacrifices. I think Dr. Brown is mistaken on that point.
As long as Dr. Brown sees a dichotomy in the Body of Christ between Jew and Greek he's exalting one over the other which is doing harm to the Body of Christ. Galatians 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Gary DeMar's position is undeniably biblical. It makes so much better sense as it is grounded in the totality of the Word of God. If the New Testament is allowed to interpret the Old, there is no way, that "Jewish fables" can be entertained.
Acts 7:38 KJV This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Demar won. Overall you can just listen to him reading the scriptures and his focus is on getting the gospel to the world where brown kept making analogies and was constantly just focused on the land. This is what we see in modern Christianity. are we focused on Jesus or the land? When Brown said if God scattered us how could we regather and break His scattering is when Brown lost the debate.
I just found this debate on your channel. It’s very interesting and seems to explain a lot that Dr. Brown takes umbrage at Gentiles having equality with Jews, in Yeshua the Messiah through the crucifixion. It’s a little scary.
Dr. Brown is right.People don't understand the battle between good and evil....The controversy over this is huge and I believe what God says.My faith is only enlarged by believing God will fulfill His word concerning Israel.I wait on the Lord....and reject the summary of mere impatient men.
Excellent, Dr. DeMar. The strongest presentation to bring correction to Christian Zionism. I've long been concerned that Messianic Judaism is simply theological over for the land mythology. And likewise, Christendom needs more teaching that provided on the core insight - The Ekklesia, or the congregation. Thank you. Now, the sad reality is my Brother in Christ, Dr. Brown, and others who profess a search for truth will ignore your correction teaching and revert back to the softer zionist apologetic.
+kennethdpricedotcom bloggerken I don't care about your religious beliefs, Zionism is a movement to free Jewish people from persecution, probably from people exactly like you. Now, feel free to have your little religious debates, as long as you don't speak against Jewish nationalism. But, if you are an anti-Zionist, then you are pro-Jewish persecution. Don't confuse your own religious problems with Jewish people trying to live in safety.
+Daniel Swindell First of all, Daniel, I don't recall asking for you to care, provide permission, or even respond to my comments. Likewise, I could not care less about some false narrative that now perverts Christianity to persecute Palestinians - including Palestinian Christians. Further, some of what you call persecution is simply judgment from God - and that is Biblical (as in the case of the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions). In addition, as an African American, the Jews might likewise repent for what they did do people of African descent - some thing I'm sure Jews are not taught. And as for persecution, one need not preach that line to blacks who've experiences much worst persecutions (including by Jews), without requiring the world to pay tribute and blood on some boogeyman ideology. DeMar completely deconstructed Mr. Brown's arguments. We need to get off this Zionist foolishness and share Christ with Jews. Your silliness about pro-persecution is also hypocritical as pro-Zionisst are pro-Palestinian persecution. God has one Chosen People - His Congregation (i.e., Ekklesia). Decide if you will accept or continue to reject Christ as all promises are now found in this.
+LXX Researcher problem is confusion over definition. A biblical Israelite is someone who is under the covenant. It's not an ethnicity. Modern definition of jew is someone who has had jewish ancestors. Bernie sanders or marx are just unbelieving gentiles. Their jewish ancestry means bubkas to God.
God has a remnant and the remnant is Gods assembly and God’s assembly has people of all kindreds, all nations and all bloods on earth! Gods remnant is referred to as congregation, assembly and church!
I'm sorry Dr. Brown but, I totally agree with Gary. Especially after reading the Darby translation which correctly translates Ecclesia (Which is absolutely hilarious because Darby's translation refutes his own Eschatology).
There are those who believe the Old Testament is about the Jews, and those who believe it is about Jesus the Messiah. Just as there are those who believe the New Testament is about the Church and those who believe it is about Jesus the Messiah.
I think this debate can be resolved by examining whether God deal with a whole nation all the time or he deals with the remnants.From the time of the exodus(the generation that murmured did not enter the land) to the grafting in of the gentiles(when those who sat in the seat of Moses to have missed bcos of jealousy)God has shown in the pages that he deals with the remnants.
is this a debate for or against replacement theology? What are they debating here? demar is clearly not a replacement theologist, he is extremly biblical, clear and reasonable in his understanding and delivery.
No one teaches replacement theology. It's a red herring from the 80s that gets tossed around. Its a failure to understand what non dispensationalist believe. People forget dispensationalism is an entire system.
There seems to be a rejection of what Paul clearly teaches. I see this over and over and over again. And I have to ask, Why? I wrote a comment above that I believe explains why. Many do not want to accept what God teaches, what Scripture teaches. Forget about the labels.
Great intelligent debate between two guys I like in the apologist arena. Although I agree way more with Gary Demar. Dr White made some good points too thanks guys!
I feel this entire debate can be answered with one passage. Galatians 3:16, 26-29. This clearly shows who the promises were made to. We can go even further and read Romans 2:25, where Paul says with explicit detail that unless one obeys the law perfectly, he becomes uncircumcised (Gentile.) This all being said, we see the reality is that Jesus is the only true Jew, and the rest of humanity is Gentile, due to our sinfulness. But the hope given in Gal 3:26-29 is clear. If we are found in Christ, we belong to the promises. See, the thing I think they both missed in touching on, is that Christ Jesus is the TRUE Israel, and only those found in HIM, belong to Israel, regardless of ethnic background. All believers are Jews in Christ, and all unbelievers are Gentiles, outside of Christ. It really is that simple. Praise God, that I have been adopted as a son, heir to the promises, along with all my brothers and sisters of ALL ethnic backgrounds. One in Christ Jesus. "Here, we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come." - Hebrews 13:14
Except that this forgets Romans 11:25-27 " For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters,[q] so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number[s] of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” Israel is special to God. They are currently, from Paul's writing through today and into our future, hardened. They are not part of the "full number of the Gentiles" being brought in. They will be saved because of God's covenant. Because of this, we know that Israel is also not the Church. They are already a part of Christ; they do not need to be grafted in. And until the "full number of the Gentiles" have come in, the hardening will not be lifted.
@@Bob-rd3dg False. Paul teaches that the unbelieving Jews were broken off. “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear" (Romans 11:19-20). He also teaches that they can be grafted back into the Olive tree. "And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree." (Romans 11:23-24). The problem in your theology, is that you are creating multiple Olive Trees. One that is Israel and one that is the Church. Clearly, as I have shown, Paul has only one Olive Tree, one covenant people, made up of natural (Jewish) and unnatural (Gentile) branches. This is the Christian Church, united together by Christ. In reference to the passage you shared: yes and amen. Ethnic Israel will be saved, but not by a different means than me and you. They will be saved by faith in Christ, re-grafted into the already existing olive tree-the Christian Church. God's people are not divided as Paul makes clear. All Israel being saved comes solely through faith in Christ, and union to his body.
Hi @@merecatholicity. Thanks for the reply. First, after reading your post, I have to ask: what IS my theology? You know my entire theology from a couple of paragraphs? Second, I have one Olive Tree -- which is Christ Jesus. The church is made up of people. It is not an entity in and of itself. The church is made up of believing Gentiles and converted Jews. Unbelieving Jews are branches that will be broken off the tree. Believing church members can be grafted into the tree. This breaking off or grafting in is a symbol of salvation. Branches that don't repent are thrown into the fire. The church can not save you -- only Christ can do that. Next, the church and Israel are not the same. We have the church since Jesus began building it. Israel existed long before. Today the church is growing, but Israel is hardened. Is part of the church hardened? Scripture does not say this. The church has a path as shown in scripture. Israel will remain hardened until the number of the Gentiles have come in. This leads into the saving of all Israel. Israel is not the entirety of the Jews. The Jews are the children of Abraham. Israel began with Jacob. Israel has a special promise and a special relationship with God. In the end, all of Israel will be saved. That goes back to Jacob. The majority of these people are dead, never having heard of Christ. Do they get a chance after death, contrary to scripture, prior to Judgement? My bible tells me it is given once for man to die and then the judgement. Not, oh, one chance to accept Christ. Or perhaps you're into the concept of the elect, in which case a hardening of Israel makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Ahh, but Israel shall be saved -- they actually are the elect. Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. The saved Gentile are not the elect -- they must have faith and believe in Christ Jesus to be saved. Back to your first reply, though, and my initial response to it. Israel and the church are two different entities. Israel is elected by God and will be saved -- not by overt acceptance of Jesus, but because Jesus blood is what will cleanse their sins. As a promise, not a calling. The church is to pull in the number of Gentiles. The church and Israel are different. It takes mental gymnastics (and special definitions of words) to pull them together.
They didn’t hit on it because this statement is false. Unbelievers are not Gentiles and believers are Jews. That isn’t biblical. There are believing Gentiles and Jews and unbelieving Gentiles and Jews.
Jesus stated He came to fulfill the law, that the prophets prophesied about Him. Paul clearly states in Gal 3:16 “Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ”. The promises were made to Christ through Abraham.
+TheRevering Thanks for your gracious comments. I find that the more I look at Postmillenialism the more it makes sense to me and I do think Chilton's take on Revelation is very biblical and meritorious. I think because our mindsets are so automatically tuned to dispensational premillennialism due to the current culture that it is too much of an ask to see that the majority of Revelation has already been fulfilled.
I'm not a Zionist. I'm a member of the body of Christ. in a saved son of God and I'm in Gods kingdom, a far greater and better and superior reality than a piece of real estate in the middle east.
Yeah that is when brown llost the debate. We could go on and on in the Scriptures where nonbelievers have “achieved” things…seeming like they have thwarted God’s judgment.
@@Welcome_To_Life I don’t believe brown lost the debate. Also, we’re not talking about achieving things we’re talking about God’s judgment to remove the Jews authority over Israel and God now allowed them to come back and have authority that cannot happen unless God reverses his judgment.
So is Dr. Brown saying that Israel trumps Jesus? That once the Jews come back, they will institute temple worship, or they come back and then suddenly believe in Jesus?
To be fair to Dr Brown (and I don't agree with him), he doesn't say that. I think he would would say that the Jews being brought to Israel is part of God's plan for salvation, not to bring back the Temple.
Yes, some dispensationalists actually do, blasphemously, believe that temple sacrifices will be reinstituted and that this will be the work of God. As you pointed out, Dr Brown does not hold to that. But yes, it’s sickening and an offense to Christ’s work on the cross.
@@erc9468 the problem is his whole argument demands it. He goes on and on “there MUST be physical fulfillment otherwise it’s meaningless” therefore his hermeneutic would demand a new temple with animal sacrifices.
Why do dispensationalist ignore that God did fulfill His promise to return the Jews to their land when Xerxes permitted them to return and rebuild during the days of Ezra. They skip this return and then accuse God of not fulfilling His promise in the year 2017. I respect Brown, but DeMar has repeatedly explained in a debate about "replacement theology" that in Christ the Gentiles are INCLUDED but Brown, like the Jews in Jesus' day is talking about the land. I didn't realize how damaging dispensationalism was until recently.
The “renewed” covenant was always a land covenant starting with Abraham, renewed with Isaac and renewed with Jacob and renewed again at Mt. Sinai with Israel and the mixed multitude who joined them. Same as pictured in Revelation. Not only has the full land which was promised never yet been fulfilled, the New Jerusalem comes down to earth exactly where the land of Israel sits...there’s no promise of spending eternity out in “space” somewhere. The only promise is for God to dwell on earth with mankind like He did with Adam and Eve on Mt. Zion which is in the Promised Land.
bruce mercer Blameless & Shameless When did heaven and earth pass away which is when Jesus said that all would be fulfilled. You misunderstand Paul when you take him out of the context of Jesus’ Words.
God DID fulfill ALL His promises to Israel - Joshua 21:45 Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass. Joshua 23:14 "Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed. 1 Kings 8:56 "Blessed be the LORD, who has given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He promised; not one word has failed of all His good promise, which He promised through Moses His servant.
Hundreds of Jews have already been saved in Israel. God has always called Israel His people because He chose them, not because they chose Him. He is faithful to His promises.
@@57andstillkicking Joshua 23:14 "Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed.
At 19:00 Dr. Brown reveals one of his greatest presuppositions is that Satan himself thinks he has a chance at thwarting God's plan. Does Satan not know God is sovreign!?
God's promise to Abraham is : " I Wiill make you __a nation". (Genesis 12:1-3) Jesuschrist prophecy is : " I Will build My Church " Matthew (16:18). The Nation of Israel are called: "Offspring of evildoers , ..a harlot." (Isaiah 1:v4 and v21) The Church people are called: " The children of God " 1JOHN 3:1
And he also said that Abraham will be the father of many “nations”. Plural. Nations. This is why of course the seed of Abraham is Christ and where the focus should always be. When people focus on a nation more than Christ we have a problem
The land was promised to the descendant of Abraham. That descendant is found in Matthew 1:1. This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16. The promises made to Abraham were made to the one seed, instead of the many seeds. In Matthew chapter 21 Jesus said that the land belongs to "the son" who is the "heir". He is the descendant of Abraham who holds the title deed to the land. He paid for it with His blood at Calvary. He is Israel.
I love Dr Brown. The land of Israel is key. The re-gathering of Israelites to the land is key. Yahshua will return to the land & rule for a thousand years from the land . The nations will be going to Jerusalem in the land of Israel to keep the feast of tabernacle every year during the millennium. All these will happen literally physically. You can’t change it to spiritual!
The church was in the wilderness a long, long time before it was at Jerusalem! Acts 7:37-38 KJV This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. [38] This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Jesus said that when you read of the Prophets, you read of Him. Throughout all the old testament it leads you to a new covenant to Israel. A covenant of grace. But when Israels Messiah appeared to them They rejected Him and accused Him of being of a devil. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often I wanted to gather you as a hen her chicks, but you would have it not. Israel was given the honor of and responsibility of taking care of Gods Vineyard, so to speak, because through Abraham's seed, the world would be blessed. That's talking about Jesus. Read Mark 12: 1-12 They blew it and God took it from them and gave it to another. Jesus cursed the fig tree ( representative of Israel ) and said that never again will they bare fruit. All through the Gospels Jesus preached to the Jews. His message to them was believe on the name of Jesus Christ and be saved. The church was born in Christ. It was Jewish , then later Gentiles were grafted in. The new covenant has been declared to all the world, to the Jew first and than the Gentile also. I don't see two covenants at work here at all. One of genealogy and another by Faith. The Jews claimed they were of Abraham and Jesus said you seek to kill me, you are of your father the devil. John 8: 37 - 47 In order for Israel to be Gods people today, according to my understanding of Jesus's words they must believe in Jesus Christ , which means they would than enter the Church. To say that to replace Israel with the church is false, it seems to me you take sides with the Scribe's and Pharisee's. Israel today follows the Tulmud. Do your research. It says that Jesus is burning in hell in his excrement and Mary is a harlot. They are committing war crimes and a host of of ocultic practices through Kabballa. So I ask what fellowship has Light with darkness. If you are in Love with Jesus, lift up His name and share the good news. If the Bible predicts a future repentance for Israel put them in Gods hands by prayer and quit supporting them in their sins because you will be held accountable as they will be. The early church did not split over escatology ( study of last days ) issues. When we stand before God on Judgement day we will be rewarded for what we did with Christ. Not rather that we support Israel in these middle east wars. Without Love we are just noise. It's all about Jesus not land or Genealogy. Jesus last words on the cross " It Is Finished. "
Moreover, since all records of which israelite belonged to such tribe were destroyed in the AD 67-70 Fall of Jerusalem & Destruction of the Temple, there are NO records extant ! Please Brethren, Dr Brown, etc. al, stop trying to put a Comma where the LORD has put a PERIOD.
@@christinetranchell4224 read acts 13:13-41, and read what God said. u may also want to read josh 23:14-15, and josh 24:2-13. all the promises are IN Christ. in fact Jesus told the jews that the OT was about HIM not THEM
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 promises to Israel are still going to be fulfilled in Christ. Not yet. The nations will be judged for dividing the land. See Joel 3.
@@christinetranchell4224 joel 3 fulfilled in Christ 1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him, a living stone-rejected by men but chosen and valuable to God- 5 you yourselves, as living stones, are being built into a spiritual house for a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it is contained in Scripture: Look! I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and honored[c] cornerstone,[d] and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame![e][f] 7 So honor will come to you who believe, but for the unbelieving, The stone that the builders rejected- this One has become the cornerstone,[g] 8 and A stone to stumble over,[h] and a rock to trip over.[i][j] They stumble because they disobey the message; they were destined for this. 9 But you are a chosen race,[k][l] a royal priesthood,[m] a holy nation,[n] a people for His possession,[o] so that you may proclaim the praises[p][q] of the One who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Titus 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 Gods word Is Not a Jewish fable! When was Joel 3:12 fulfilled?? When did the Lord cleanse and hold innocent the blood of Judah and avenge it? Judah 3:21. In Amos 9 God says I will bring back the exiles of my people Israel,they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them,they shall plant vineyards and drink the wine from them....and I will plant them on their land and they shall no longer be torn from their land which I gave them says the Lord your God. When was that fulfilled?? 1948!
Great debate! Why is it so hard for Brown to understand that if God wants to go beyond the scope of his original promises and expand the land promises to the ends of the world, He can do so. That doesn't make Him a promise breaker. Brown gives the impression that he would be offended if God dared add more to the promises. In 1 Corth. 3 Paul's tells us that the world is ours. If I promised to give you a hundred dollars and then gave you a thousand dollars instead would you dare think I broke my promise? Secondly, I don't see why DeMar didn't bring up the point that every promise made will be physically fulfilled in the new heavens and earth. The OT prophets and saints didn't know of two advents of the Messiah but only one. So when you understand that, you see that you have to read the OT prophesies fulfillment as being inaugurated in His first coming and brought to its consummation in his second.
If God no longer works in history, we may safely ignore the modern nation of Israel. For that matter, let us forget the real world and join gnostics in a spiritualizing of everything.
DeMar says there was no Church Israel distinction in the NT at 2:04:10 - Paul makes a clear distinction... 1 Corinthians 10:32 KJV - Give none offence, neither to the JEWS, nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD (Ecclessia):
True Israel was never about Flesh! For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:5. Look out for the DOGS, look out for the EVILDOERS, look out for those (OF THE CONCISION) who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) and put no confidence in the flesh. Philippians 3:2-3. [emphasis added by me] AMEIN! Scripture identifies who the true Israel is: A promise to Abraham and to his seed, not seeds... Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) is that seed. Messiah (the perfect Israel) imputed into us through faith, ''the hope of glory.'' Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Messiah. Galatians 3:16. That is, all of us in Yeshua (Jesus), ''the true Israel.'' Hallelujah! And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, (Yeshua the seed) and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they ARE NOT all Israel, which are of (fleshly/national) Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. that is, they which are the CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, these ARE NOT the children of God: but the CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE are counted for the seed. Romans 9:6-8. Heb.11:13. For he IS NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But HE IS a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, IN THE SPIRIT, and not in the letter (FLESH); whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:28-29. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the ''Israel of God.'' Galatians 6:16. [emphasis added by me] Pray for a ''peaceful'' dismantlement of the zionist state that arrogantly refers to itself as Israel. This nationalistic cult does not represent the blessedness of the Jewish people, their culture, their religion, nor their blessed ethnic heritage. Pray for the Jewish people, the Muslim people, and all peoples throughout the world. Also, pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Land, is not what these religious people need. Yeshua (Jesus) is ''Who'' they need! For he (Abraham) looked for a city which hath foundations, WHOSE BUILDER AND MAKER IS GOD. Hebrews 11:10. The Almighty will build not the Israelis! Our coming Messiah will establish the New Jerusalem as His sanctuary capital exclusively for His Anointed Israel. It is not about a fleshly nationalistic state capital built by the hands of man as is taught by the contemporary premillennial heresy. The city of the New Jerusalem is destined, by the Almighty, to be the eternal capital of the new heavens and earth. And on that day, there will be peace forevermore. Bo Yeshua Bo... Come Lord Jesus come...
Patrick Williamson Thank you so much for that, because your words put me in remembrance of what I learned when i was in Hawaii 86-87. But me being a simple minded man Bro. Brown's words kind of take the spiritual reality out of things. I'm just saying that you made me smile with those Comforting words.
So what prophecies from pre Babylonian exile and why would many of those not apply to the Jews not returning from that exile. And also. It says over and over I promise _____ for ever if you ______. So what happens when they didn’t follow that condition.
Mr. Brown you have the right to be wrong. You are a great blessing to those who believe ALL that the prophets have spoken. You show us just how subtle and crafty the adversary is. One day even you will agree with Gary.
I think Dr. Brown's point about scattering and regathering is a check mate for the replacement position: Hear the word of the Lord , O nations, And declare in the coastlands afar off, And say, "He who scattered Israel will gather him And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock." Jeremiah 31:10
Some of those unfulfilled promises Dr Brown spoke about may be fulfilled in the new Heaven and Earth, because nothing is ever perfect here, we all remain sinners though we are believers.
Besides the fact that it's totally speculative, verifiably ahistorical, utterly nonsensical and completely unbiblical, dispensationalism is a really wonderful theory.
"Dispensationalism = Bible lite Delusional "exempt me from my Christian Duty" escapism, that appears scholarly in its complexity, yet lacking all Foundational or Covenentally coherency. Perfect for a church steeped in humanism. I'm told its nearly unknown outside the USA, suggesting it's an 'American aberration' ! We are so Blessed to have escaped this trap - all praise to God !
how so? just wondering how one can get that from this debate.. my mind was changed from this debate because of demar... I am a very logical person..and dr brown seems to try to squirm out unsuccessfully a lot..
@@jeremysmith5363 hey brother, thanks for the respectful question! For me, Dr. Brown showed from the Scriptures that if God was the One who exiled His Jewish people, then He’s the only One who can bring them back to the land. Also, Romans 9:1-5 & Romans 11:28-29 say clearly that God’s calling (national election) & gifts (including the land) to Israel are irrevocable. And Romans 9:1-5 state that the covenants still belong to unbelieving Israel although without faith in Jesus, they don’t participate in all its blessings. Those are some of my reasons.
I got it Mr. Demar. Great job. Wow. Dominion not escape. And I heard you answer the question about the scattering and the gathering. God did bring them together as one new man in Christ. We have come to the heavenly city.
+Helen Williamson Incorrect. The diaspora happens after 70 a.d Jesus, testifies that Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles "until' he predicts the great diaspora. That regathering hasn't happened. Joel 3:2 I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land. Now read the a timeline on antisemitism en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism History bears witness and is not lying.
***** The body of "messiah" includes the chosen people and the congregation as *one*. Its ludicrous to think that God told Abraham all the physical borders of the land if that had no bearing on the future.
***** I am not, "moving away" I want to get to each point in the discussion. As for Paul he states this right after talking about Women not teaching: …"13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint." Do you admit that Paul is stating there is a difference between Men and Women?
***** You brought up this scripture, recall. its important we go through this "step by step" and we can get to all the other issues in "steps". You will admit that there are actually Women and Men. I don't think you will deny this. I want to write in small amounts so as to get the point across. This is relevant, do you have an idea why Paul said the statement about "male and female, slave and free" etc? Why do you think he said this?
Gentiles who put faith in Jesus are no longer foreigners, but fellow citizens (Ephesians 2:12-14)--hence Israelites. Believing Gentiles have been grafted on to the tree that Jewish unbelievers have been broken off of--the tree that connected them to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (the family of Israel). The Church is not the new Israel, but old Israel, under a New Covenant. Michael Brown is, I think, almost right when he says that the word "Israel" in the New Testament always refers to physical Israel. But there is one time when he is certainly wrong: When Paul speaks of the Israel of God, in Galatians 6:16. (Read verse 15, which makes it clear, who Paul is talking about.) This really IS the Church.
Unless a man be born again... he can not enter the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is here and the kingdom of heaven is where we go where we put off this flesh. In respect to the kingdom of god... Jesus said in John 14... I my fathers house there are many dwellings... he died to prepare a place.... by his spirit. As he said unless I go.... "he" the spirit can't come. The kingdom is here... the new heaven and new earth was established A.D. 70
Honestly, I hate debates. It's not "Come, let us reason together." It's more win or lose. If the wrong side loses, everyone loses in a debate like this. I gringe at many of the comments below. It's just about a side far more than it is about what is God telling us. That is not good. Instead of "come let us reason together" it's more like "come let us dig our heels further in the sand."
@Stephen Paul says we are grafted in to one tree, I think. But God's plan for His chosen people is a separate plan for the Jews that still believe in the old covenant before Jesus. As Paul said, blindness in part has come upon Israel for the sake of the gentiles. I notice that this is not spoken of very much. Not popular I suppose. Probably doesn't fit many church doctrines. Only fits God's plan. Everyone wants their own club, not necessarily the truth. In the end, we will all be one, those that accept Jesus. And God and Jesus will be their light and their temple. Hard to believe it's going to be a little over a thousand years for it all to be completed. A thousand years after Christ's second coming. Off the top of my head, I think that's the gist of it.
@Stephen The blindness in part is part of God's plan for our salvation. Paul explains this in Romans 11:25,26 especially and Romans 11:32. But certainly read the entire passage Romans 11:11 through the end of the chapter. And here is a very good explanation by Pastor Chuck Smith: "Paul the apostle in Romans the eleventh chapter, in talking about the grace of God that has come to us Gentiles, declares that God has taken up like a wild olive branch and grafted us into the roots of the Old Testament promises that we might be the partakers of the blessings that God promised to Abraham and all. That God cut off the natural branch, Israel, that we might be grafted in. However, Paul said, "Don't boast against the natural branch" (Romans 11:18). As Christians we should not be boasting against Israel saying, "Well, nya nya nya, God cut you off and He's adopted us. And we have your blessings and we have your, the promises that God made to you." For Paul said, "If God cut off the natural branch to graft in a wild branch, He's also able to graft in again the natural branch." And he said, "Did God cut it off that He might cast it away forever? God forbid. For blindness has happened in Israel in part (or for a time) until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in and then all of Israel shall be saved. For God shall send forth a deliverer out of Zion to turn the hearts of the children unto their fathers," as he quotes the passage from Joel, second chapter. So, even in the New Testament, Paul does not seek to make this prophecy concerning Israel apply to the church. The church has a separate place as a wild olive branch grafted in to partake of the fatness of the roots. But even as we have been grafted in and the natural branch cut off that we might be grafted in, so God will again restore His work on Israel." I could not have said it better than Chuck Smith.
@Stephen Romans 2:28,29 is true of anyone, Jew or Christian. Israel. 1948. God will defend Israel according to Ezekiel 38,39 I think it is for His name's sake. Check out Ezekiel 39:23. “The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity;" The chosen people are still the chosen people. Nothing has changed. Devout Jews that are not Messianic Jews are still His chosen people.
Dr. Brown is very good at that. Dr Demar has to stop him several times before the focus is shifted away from the present topic. I do enjoy both of them 'sometimes thou i disagree with both at same time in some things
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Both men make great points. regardless one fact stands forever and that is God married israel. His promise is forever.
Here's the problem with what you just said about God marrying Israel. Yes, God did marry Israel, who rejected him and committed adultery against him. Scripture is clear on this. God did not dishonor the marriage; God was not unfaithful: the Jews were. Jesus came first to the Jews to reconcile the elect unto him. The rest rejected and killed him, just like they killed the prophets God had sent before (Matthew 21:37).
In Matthew 21, Jesus cursed the fig tree (symbolic of Israel), saying it will NEVER again bear fruit.
Matthew 21:19-21 (KJV) And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
The "mountain" (symbolic of the old Jewish/Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system, which was fulfilled in Jesus' sacrifice) was "moved into the sea" (a reference to the diaspora), which occurred in AD70 with the destruction of Jerusalem.
GOD DIVORCED PHYSICAL ISRAEL, REMARRIED SPIRITUAL ISRAEL
That marriage to the first woman, those who were genetically Jews ended in divorce. The woman was put away at the fulfillment of the old covenant, beginning with Jesus' ministry and ending with the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in AD70, which was when the Christians who had remained faithful and remembered Jesus' warnings, did not come down from the housetops, but immediately and with haste, fled to the hills and escaped, while the unbelieving Jews were killed or taken and sold into slavery. This is all historically recorded for those who are willing to study history.
The new covenant is also a marriage, and it is a spiritual marriage, just like the first. God cannot be married to two women at once, for that is against His law. Unless you are willing to say that the new covenant is already in place, then frankly, you are not saved and do not even understand what Jesus' words, "You must be born again," mean. New Jerusalem is the spiritual city, the Holy city come down from heaven. Those who have been born again, have received the first part of the kingdom, the spiritual kingdom, and are already reigning with Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
If you doubt or do not understand that Jesus is sitting now on the Throne at the right hand of the Father as the Scriptures inform us, you will not see this: There is no such thing as a king without a kingdom. Jesus, as King of Kings, is not a king without a kingdom. He does have a kingdom, and it is called the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven, or the New Jerusalem, or the Holy city, at it exists at present. This is the spiritual reality of the gospel, first understood by Abraham, unto whom this understanding was first granted, and his faith was accounted to him as righteousness, accepting the promise to live forever in the kingdom, by God's grace. Today, Abraham is physically dead, but spiritually alive in the kingdom of God, the New Jerusalem, as are all born again believers, currently living in the first portion of their eternity with Christ.
I did not always understand this. I was originally a pre-trib rapture pre-millennialist because, unfortunately, I was taking the word of preachers without doing as the Bereans were commended for doing, proving all things by searching the Scriptures to see if these things were true. I was mostly just reading, but not studying, as the apostle Paul advised Timothy to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." This issue warrants study, because it affects one's world view and understanding of what is really going on, including a whole lot of deception by the enemy. Pray and ask for understanding and for the revelation ("apocalypse") of Jesus Christ about the spiritual kingdom of God, of which Jesus said,
Matthew 13:9-17 (KJV) Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) "...The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
When is the kingdom of God within you? When you become saved -- born again -- and it is an eternal kingdom. This is why Jesus said to "preach the gospel to EVERY creature," including the Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Atheists. Jesus made it clear that there is only one way unto salvation, which is through Him. John 14:6. There is not another way for someone just because they live in a physical land called Israel, a land created, by the way, by God-hating Zionists, the spiritual descendants of those Jesus addressed in John 8:44, Revelation 2:9 and 3:9.
John 8:42-47 (KJV) Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
LXX Researcher why not go on further in Jeremiah to the 12th verse?
12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the Lord; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion" also read Hosea the Lord never leaves his people. if he did, then we are lost too.
LXX Researcher I don't think you're right. as much as you seem to have studied this, it doesn't add up. are you suggesting that the people in Israel now are not a fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy? I don't know if I'm understanding you right.
LXX Researcher so if Ezekiel's prophecies does not go beyond the first century and are only parables. so why is the prophecies of Jeremiah different? I agree that these prophecies must be looked at from the perspective in that time in Israel but some of it goes beyond their day. you can not pick and choose verses from the bible and link it to what your beliefs are.. you must read the whole chapter or the whole book to understand. Berean? is that SDA? .
I will read your last response more closely soon. but I can tell you have an kingdom now prophetic approach to scripture.
I kissed dispensationalism goodbye. It is nothing more than fear based charismatic mayhem. Jesus is redeeming his people and culture by faith in his son.
Wang Jotson Amen!
Dispensationalism is not "Charismatic". Not sure where you got that idea from?
I think the charismatic Assembly Of God ascribes to dispensationalism as well as most southern Baptist
My point is that Dispensationalism did not arrive out of the Charismatic movement, nor is Dispensationalism some kind of litmus test to determine whether a community is "Charismatic". But, you are correct that there Charismatic communities which hold to Dispensationalism. But that doesn't make Dispensationalism a "Charismatic" theology. I believe that the Dallas Theological Seminary is a strong-hold of Dispensationalism (hardly a Charismatic group) However, I have done some more reading and it appears that you correct on this point, the Pentecostals and many branch off Charismatic denominations are Dispensationalist. But, [from Wikipedia] "Dispensationalism developed as a system from the teachings of John Nelson Darby (1800-82) who strongly influenced the Plymouth Brethren of the 1830s in Ireland and England" John Nelson Darby was not a Charismatic. Thanks and be blessed.
I’m over here in Tyler, TX and everyone I come in contact with is going to be a die hard, hard headed, my pastor says so kind of dispensationalist and being that this topic ties directly into our involvement with Israel and all the war they want to keep dragging us into this topic is going to come up so I’m trying to learn as much about both views as possible, it’s looking like to me the covenant school of of thought is the most probable but if that’s the case there are literally millions of people in my state alone who are for lack of a better word “Wrong”
Galatians 3:28 (AKJV) 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
There are still men and women. Jews and Gentiles. All are alike under the power of sin and all need a savior.
@@christinetranchell4224 these men are not debating if there is a different way of salvation for Jews or Gentiles. They both agree that anyone that has salvation only have salvation through Jesus Christ. What they are debating is whether or not God in addition to the spiritual salvation of anyone in Christ still has a Covenant with the ethnic Jews as far as possessing the land that was physically promised to Abraham. They both agree that there is a higher spiritual interpretation that children of Abraham are Heirs of the promises in Christ but Gary as a preterist believes the spiritual fulfillment in Christ Alone is the promise but Doctor Mike believes in addition to that that there must still be a physical possession of the land by ethnic Israelites. Or is it both. The Bible already proves that all the physical promises to Abraham were fulfilled during the reign of Solomon oh, the doctor Mike believes that it should be a Perpetual promise and that they will always and forever possess the land. Gary believes that the higher fulfillment will be in the heaven and the new Earth.
Define jew.
Define gentile.
The main point of this verse (28) is Galatians 3:29. Paul is saying that Abraham's promise is available to all who are "in Christ."
@@christinetranchell4224 In context, Galatians 3:28 makes perfect sense, but when it is quoted in isolation, the word "neither" can have any sense one desires it to have. Only "one" sense of the word is implied in Galatians, though.
In my opinion, Gary DeMar's argument makes much more sense and logic.
Michael Brown did what he normally does. He rapid fired a mountain of verses and just assumed his position was consistent with them. Demar actually made an argument.
Yes Michael Brown makes an idol of Jewish blood. The only Jewish blood (or any other blood) we should be concerned with is Jesus blood!
Andrew Clover it was funny when dr brown, in his opening, kept saying “very simply syllogism” and then proceeded to give no syllogism whatsoever LOL
I really don’t know how after knowing and learning so much of the Bible and hearing people like Gary DeMars argument and not be convinced of postmill and prederist position. He is amazing
Confusing temple 3 with temple 2.No temple 3 New covenant simple
I love Dr. Brown, but Dr. Dmar did a fantastic job exegeting the Scriptures. I believe it is are you is far stronger, every answer, statement or rebuttal came from the Scriptures. Well done
The only regret I have after these 25 years of being saved is that I would’ve known what Dr. Demar was saying. Especially the part about the church began with Israel and the mystery was revealed that the Gentiles would be one with them. There was is NO replacement theology.
And when you see it, you cannot unsee it. It's there laid out as plain as day.
Same here. I wish I had studied post mil 25 years ago. There’s so many scriptures that I’ve been missing simply because I dismissed them to some ethereal future state.
The old Covenant was replaced by
Jesus Christ
The New Covenant ✝️
@@P.H.888 The Old Covenant was Fulfilled by
Jesus Christ
The New Covenant 😊
@@P.H.888The new covenant is the same covenant with different people. Read Jeremiah 31-33
Dr Demar has with great care, dismantled all this Church/Israel nonsense. Well done!
DeMar was not even close.
+Paul Goodman
I'd love for you and me to flesh out our different positions from scripture. Are you willing?
Hey Wally, would love to chat. So I think that the error from believing Israel is through from not properly starting with a solid foundation for the direction of prophetic Scriptures. I wrote an article recently on prophecy in the Pentateuch and that is the foundation for what I think. It is just a blog and I am not fishing for clicks or anything, I get no monetary gain from people reading it. Here it is: endtimes150.com/prophecy-in-the-pentateuch/
The covenant was always with the assembly of the elect (i.e. the "church").
The New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, with the exact text from Jeremiah 31 bracketed by two verses making it plain the New Covenant was fulfilled by Christ. We find the Church included in the New Covenant in Hebrews 12:22-24 and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and it is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20. On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel", and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". On that day about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah chapter 31. In Romans 11 Paul used the Olive tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. Paul said the branches broken off can be grafted back into the tree through faith in Christ. This is the word "so" of Romans 11:26, which is the manner of their salvation. It is not the timing of their salvation. There is no plan B of salvation outside of the New Covenant Church. All of the Israelites were not "partially" blinded. Some have been blinded and some have not, just as Paul describes the remnant of his time in Romans 11:1-5. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant confirmed in Blood for all races of people at Calvary (Matthew 26:28). If we want modern Jews to be saved we need to share with them "the suffering servant" of Isaiah chapter 53, and the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and the timeline of Daniel chapter 9, which reveal that the baby born in a manger is the New Covenant Messiah promised in the Hebrew scriptures.
Gary Demar makes the best case for his point of view. I used to be a dispensaltionist. Thank God he brought me out of that false teaching!
Same for us 20 years ago we learned of Gods Covenant and were freed from Dispensationalist delusions - Praise be to Jesus our King!
@@hellosunshine1090 the Lord has just brought me out of that nonsense too. Praise Jesus!
Kyle C no what really happened to you was you refused to believe the truth so now you have been turned over to a lie.
benny luken what lie specifically?
@@jcismyall It is just like the others with premil/dispensational/ futurist eschatology who upload videos and turn off the comments section. Silence. No answer. Just call you a liar....hit and run..... drive-by poster who will only hear his/her traditional doctrines.
Love Uncle Gary. During the pandemic, he convinced me of partial preterism. If Jesus tells the Sanhedrin that they'll see the Son of Man coming on the clouds and Revelation says that was happening soon and "soon" was relative to Jesus' day, I (a Christian of almost 20 years) had to ask "What else was Jesus right about?"
I heard him on the bible answer mans podcast out of luck...and started researching this stuff....and have came to the conclusion you have...the one that got me was God told daniel to seal up the books...but told john not to seal up revelation because it must soon come to pass....that and his breakdown of Matt Chapter 24...
It proves that a real understanding of scripture is crucial in standing against false doctrine. People can find it easy to follow lies when they haven’t studied scripture. Gary de Mar gives a very clear exposition of Gods Word. He explains that the prophecies that the dispensationalists say are yet to be fulfilled, have already been fulfilled!
The Church is not the REPLACEMENT for Israel. The Church is the FULFILLMENT of Israel.
The church was in the wilderness long before it was at Jerusalem!
Acts 7:37-38 KJV
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. [38] This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Would you object if I started to collect your checks at work? Would it be acceptable if I reasoned that, in taking the money which you had earned, I was not claiming to REPLACE you, but that I am your FULFILLMENT? This is no better than the distortion of words by claiming not replacement but expansion. Honesty is a mark of guidance by the Holy Spirit.
As a recovering dispensationalist, the problem I see in Dr Brown's argument, like many dispensationalists is that they set up a strawman of the opposing view and then dismantle that. I'm not sure if 'replacement theology' is a term used by prponants. Perhaps it has been but it's not Dr DeMar's vew because it's not the view or terminology of the bible. Strawmen arguments are good for those who want to win debates but not for those who are seeking truth. I suspect that is why some comments say that they ignored each others strong points. What I found is that Reconstructionists such as DeMar understand dispensationalism very well but disp's do not understand other points of view, certainly not that of the preterists.
+Nathan Ellery Disp needs comfirmation of it's view about the physical land promise in the NT and it's completely absent. When Paul refers to God's promise to Abraham he says he didn't receive it but he looked to a spiritual city. Hebrews, the letter to Jews never supports a literal return to the land.
Instead the NT authors speak of 'the mystery' that the prophets couldn't see. No the mystery is not the church separate from Israel. Never mentioned! Don't make things up. The mystery is specifically stated that believing gentiles are to be grafted into Israel and become inheritors of the promise. Disp's and their focus on Israel is all OT (note how often they quote from it and how little from the NT). It ignores God's latest revelation in the NT.
+Nathan Ellery As someone who was once a deacon in a Dispensational church, I would like to thank you for having the courage to throw off John Nelson Darby's doctrine, that has spread like a virus through the evangelical Church in America. When you have some time, watch the RUclips video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology" to see the origin of the doctrine. Also, take a look at the links at the top of that page. You may want to spend some time taking a look at "New Covenant Theology" which was taught by the Apostle Paul. Both Reformed Covenant Theology and Dispensational Theology have problems at Galatians chapter 3. The Law was added 430 years "after" the Promise to Abraham and that Promise was made to only Christ.
This is so true. Ive seen many debates and have been part of many myself with them, and have yet to hear a dispensationalist properly summarize the amill/ post mill or historic premill view. Total ignorance of church history and total unwillingness to investigate positions outside their own. Maybe _that_ is an over-generalization but again, this has been my experience.
Most frustrating is the false dilemma advanced by these folks, namely, that the only eschatological scheme that accounts for God’s promises to ethnic Israel is dispensationalism. That is just PATENTLY FALSE. But through these “fair speeches they deceive the hearts of the simple.”
Btw, I don’t think it’s a salvation issue but I do think that views on eschatology can so greatly either hinder or help one’s soteriology that errant eschatology _can_ truly damage some person’s faith, to the point of unbelief. I’ve witnessed it.
Nathan, I've only listened to a half an hour of this so far, but I caught this. Also, I think Michael is the most objective and knowledgeable teacher I listen to, but he seems to have the same problem with this issue that every Messianic believer I've come across has.
Michael Cobb
God has not broken His promises to the Jewish people. He promised to bring them back to their land and being faithful, He has done that. He promised them a Messiah, and after hardening their hearts, He has promised to take off their blinders to behold Jesus as their Messiah. God’s promises in the Old Testament were mostly unconditional. If God broke His promises to the Jewish people, how could you trust Him to keep His promises to you?
I pray that the Lord bless these two wonderful brothers! No matter what position you hold, share the truth that Jesus is Lord with everyone! He is Lord and he is coming again.
It was a good debate. I have much respect Michael, but I do believe that Gary's position is much stronger.
I once held to Dr. Brown's position. But I now find it biblically untenable.
God's covenant with Abraham is to his seed (singular) not to his seeds (plural). And the singular seed of Abraham to whom the promises to Abraham pertain is Christ. The spiritual seed of Abraham is found solely today within the Church of Jesus Christ. This is all that matters, as racial birth or appearance carry no favour with God. It is they alone that are “blessed” and are now part of the eternal “promises made.”
We have moved from the natural to the spiritual with Christ and the new covenant. God's people are no longer restricted to a natural nation, but rather a spiritual nation. The old covenant has been superseded by a better covenant, an eternal one. Under the new covenant, there is only one seed today that matters - the seed of faith. The rest belong to their father the devil. Galatians 3:12-14, 16 proves that there is on one seed: “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith ... Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds (plural), as of many; but as of one (single), and to thy seed, which is Christ.”
Paul. Malcomson Amen !
Paul Malcomson: You are correct, but only HALF correct. The promise has two parts, and Gal 3 demonstrates that the Gospel (seed singular) is "In your seed (singular) shall all nations be blessed." BUT the previous section of the promise includes, the land, kings, kingdoms, nations, company of nations, they will possess the gates of their enemies, etc. So BOTH sections, the promise to the Nation (plural seed) and the promise of Christ the singular seed.
Paul. Malcomson
Romans 11 tells of God’s heart for unbelieving Israel.
Awesome Gary DeMar....accomplished scholar.
He’s an accomplished spokesperson for Satan.
ABSOLUTELY HANDS down the most Christian DISCUSSION I have ever heard..This is NOT a typical debate but a logical...no winner take ALL talk..and no SELF DEFENSIVE insecurities ...which on issues like this...it is VERY important. God does keep His Covenants...We ALL accept THAT !
The church is not just a parenthesis in God's plan, it was His plan from the beginning. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, wasn't He? If Israel would not have rejected their Messiah, no one, neither Jew or Gentile, would have been saved! Aren't you glad they rejected Him? Sad day for our Lord, but it was to the benefit of all, Jew and Gentile. There is simply no way the church age was "plan B" in God' mind.
Mike65809 as a dispensational, I affirm this. However, you seem to think this refutes Dr Browns position
Saying thank YAHUAH that Israel rejected YAHUSHA Messiah gave gentiles (other nations) a chance to receive Him is like saying it couldn't have happened if Israel (a nation of disciples) hadn't accepted Messiah and carried truth to the world. Do you see the the contradiction that YAHUAH has to succeed based on history over Scripture.
@@arthurbostic1963 You can be creative but Christ had to die, and not be made King over Israel. He told the Disciples such. History is not over scripture because history is God's plan in action, even from the very beginning and through the fall.
@@joshuakriese4604 I read it that he is affirming DeMar's position. The Plan B idea is essentially Disp. view which is of course not a sound position. Dr Brown may have a more mature, more reasonable understanding and position than most Disp but other Disp have authored the Plan B idea.
Part of the issue is the understanding of 'church' which is not a religious word, but means a gathering of likeminded people, common purpose. It's the same word translated congregation in the OT. Disp have made church have a meaning it doesn't have. God's purpose was not to create something separate, a 2nd bride (woman on the side) but to bring Gentiles into His Church, his people. It's the elephant that Disp miss when they imagine two separate peoples. And it's very clearly laid out.
Eph 2:9-19
(Eph 3:6) This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel , members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.(Rom 9:7) Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. (inc Gentiles!)
(Gal 3:7) Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. (inc Gentiles)
(Gal 3:28,29) There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ
Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.(inc Gentiles)
(John 8:33-47)
(1 Pet 2:9,10) But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (inc Gentiles)
@@NathanEllery I asked if you saw the contradiction that YAHUAH has to succeed based on history over scripture? Evidently you didn't read what I wrote or are so into Catholicism's revisions of scripture it prevents you from understanding we are saying the same thing how be it with different words. I prefer the original over Catholicism's words.
Good debate. Have to say Gary won this one in my opinion
You sure you listened to the debate?
@@kevinevans8892 yep
@@jeffs3594 I meant ntj4Christ. I agree with you Demar won. I'm also a former Dispey turned partial Preterist
@@kevinevans8892 ME TOO! Gary DeMar is my new favourite teacher. Such depth, and not the fear-fluff Dispensationisim creates.
You’re just insecure and antisemitic? Lol he got schooled
the only replacement theology is dispensationalism
Amen, brother.
@@mahyakc8369 ?????
@@mahyakc8369 u mean new jerusalem? see gal 4:21-31. the old covenant was types in shadows where the new covenant is the true israel.
@@mahyakc8369 all the promises were in Christ
2 Cor 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you [g]by us, even [h]by me and Silvanus and Timothy, was not yea and nay, but in him is yea. 20 For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 21 Now he that establisheth us with you [i]in Christ, and anointed us, is God; 22 [j]who also sealed us, and gave us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Acts 13:14 But they, passing through from Perga, came to Antioch of Pisidia; and they went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. 16 And Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said,
Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken: 17 The God of this people Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they sojourned in the land of Egypt, and with a high arm led he them forth out of it. 18 And for about the time of forty years [d]as a nursing-father bare he them in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan, he gave them their land for an inheritance, for about four hundred and fifty years: 20 and after these things he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they asked for a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king; to whom also he bare witness and said, [e]I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after my heart, who shall do all my [f]will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to promise brought unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus; 24 when John had first preached [g]before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John was fulfilling his course, he said, What suppose ye that I am? I am not he. But behold, there cometh one after me the shoes of whose feet I am not worthy to unloose. 26 Brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and those among you that fear God, to us is the word of this salvation sent forth. 27 For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we bring you good tidings of the promise made unto the fathers, 33 that God hath fulfilled the same unto our children, in that he raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, [h]Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he hath spoken on this wise, [i]I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David. 35 Because he saith also in another psalm, [j]Thou wilt not give thy Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had [k]in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 but he whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, brethren, that through this man is proclaimed unto you remission of sins: 39 and by him every one that believeth is justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you which is spoken in the prophets:
41 [l]Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and [m]perish;
For I work a work in your days,
A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you.
@@mahyakc8369 no. it's Christ only. there are 2 groups of people, thise in Adam or those in Christ. no 3rd group called national Israel
Eph 2:11 So then, remember that at one time you were Gentiles in the flesh-called “the uncircumcised” by those called “the circumcised,” which is done in the flesh by human hands. 12 At that time you were without the Messiah, excluded from the citizenship of Israel, and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus, you who were far away have been brought near by the blood of the Messiah. 14 For He is our peace, who made both groups one and tore down the dividing wall of hostility. In His flesh, 15 He made of no effect the law consisting of commands and expressed in regulations, so that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, resulting in peace. 16 He did this so that He might reconcile both to God in one body through the cross and put the hostility to death by it.[d] 17 When the Messiah came, He proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints, and members of God’s household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21 The whole building, being put together by Him, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord. 22 You also are being built together for God’s dwelling in the Spirit.
Eph 3:1 For this reason, I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles- 2 you have heard, haven’t you, about the administration of God’s grace that He gave to me for you? 3 The mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have briefly written above. 4 By reading this you are able to understand my insight about the mystery of the Messiah. 5 This was not made known to people[a] in other generations as it is now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit:
ALL THE PROMISES OF GOD ARE YES & AMEN ~ IN JESUS CHRIST ‼️
DR Brown, it is eisegesis to read the OT w/o hearing what the NT says. The promise was to abraham and his Seed (Christ). all in Christ are heirs to the promise to abraham. land? Rom 4:13 says the promise was the whole world. types and shadows are gone
Shalom Aleichem bruce mercer Blameless & Shameless,
nor does it help anyone to read the B`rit Mila with a "greek mind". I do not assume sir, you do, please bear with me.
For example, so many confusion comes from the fact that most of my brothers and sisters in Yeshua ha Mashiach think that a new day starts at midnight and forget that Scripture is written with the understanding that a new day starts at dawn. You cannot just change that.
In acts 20:7-16 Paul traveled on yom rishon (sunday) not on yom sheni (monday).
Acts 20:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
Read this carefully and know a new day starts at sundown. Paul traveled on a sunday. No rest on a sunday for him.
I have more examples of "the greek mind" being not the way to read Holy Scripture.
(Excuse my poor English, i am Dutch)
@@patrickvangelder1784 as u know the NT is written in koine but the mindset is hebrew not greek
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 Shalom, the writings are in a Hebrew mindset, yes, but the minds reading those words often not. That is what i was trying to point out with my example.
Do you, sir read the Bible in the understanding that a new day starts at midnight?
Because if you do your exegesis of certain texts is going to be faulty.
@@patrickvangelder1784 6pm usually
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 Around and about, haha...
What are your thoughts about the fact that Paul and the disciples came together to break bread after sundown
(start of "sunday") he spoke till midnight and traveled on a sunday? No sunday rest for Paul.
Paul and the other disciples were Torah observant jews.
Two class acts in this debate. It’s so refreshing to see two people debate in a Godly manner. I personally don’t see this as a huge issue, but totally understand why each is so passionate about it. God bless both of you as you fulfill God’s will for your life.
I don't debate in a Godly manner. The fact that many so called Christians have no concern for God's chosen ones will be a witness against them some day. People who endorse replacement theology are not Christians they work for someone named Satan and I don't care pius and holy they appear on T.V. To make a claim that God is replacing his chosen ones with the church is zenith of arrogance and hubris. The so called church in America has treasure trove of dirty little secrets. One of those secrets is their hatred of the Jews. We won't touch on all the other ones right now. Our Messiah taught us everything done in secret will shouted from the roof tops. Replacement theology is nothing more than wicked people putting lipstick on a pig then asking you isn't she pretty? What is behind this so called theology is their intense hatred of the Jews. And since they are a bunch of sissy ass little cowards they don't enough testosterone to simply admit that they are indeed simply continuing Martin Luther and Adolph Hitler's hatred of the Jews. Now to sell this vile slop to the Joe's and Jane's sitting in the pews they had come up with a seemingly benign reason for their unrestrained hatred for the Jews. They were not about to go in front of their congregations and say we are hate mongers and the people we hate are the Jews. They will only admit that in private. But remember everything done in secret will be shouted from the roof tops. So they came with the idea of calling this a "theology". This NOT A THEOLOGY THIS IS THEIR COVER UP FOR THEIR HATRED FOR THE JEWS. I know they wear expensive suits and careful to never let their vile little tongues offer hate speech. They even use 5 and 6 syllable words to explain their "theology" All this is ,is putting lipstick on a pig. They use the same filthy tactics Richard Nixon used to cover up Watergate. These people are cowardly and wicked. Their multi syllable words and their secret hatred of the Jews will be witnesses against them when they encounter our Messiah
After the two opening statements, I'm with Dr. DeMar
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
I find Brown is just floundering here. DeMar is very strong and sticks hard to Scripture.
SpotterVideo could you perhaps point me in the direction of some material that would clarify and explain your position? Something simple and concise
Why? Dr. DeMar is a so-called Reconstructionist/Dominionist. Reconstructionists support the full Christian takeover of the world through stealth and deceit. Ultimately, Dominionists ARE anti-semites, with all of Dr. DeMar's pretensions to the contrary.
@@richardlee2120 what nonsense to suggest anything DeMar believes to be antisemitic. A bold statement without an ounce of backing.
Dr Brown the regathering began through the preaching of the gospel. In Acts 2 you see the gathering of Jews from every nation under heaven.
@Re L Its the regathering of the Elect of God, The True Israel of God.
@@yesnomaybeso5755 that's the point michael brown insists and you don't understand. Jews were scathered, but the elect are gathered? Flawed hermeunetics
@@vitorherold it’s not flawed at all. You don’t seem to understand that God is only going to gather those who produce fruit. All unbelieving Jews that reject the gospel are rejected as well as all unbelieving gentiles. So all gentiles and Jews that believe are gathered into the true Israel of God.
The Jews lost the lineage of the Levites! They cannot do Temple worship anymore. The world is a greater promise than just the land of Israel.
The Levitical priesthood is known and has kept its identity miraculously. It has also been proven scientifically through DNA testing. Some Believe that Y'shua is the Messiah.
@@valerierosproy1255 How much DNA? Do we do NAZI racial tests to verify their genetics? Identity as you put it is subject to a ethnic purity test which is just absurd.
@@gideondavid30 there is a group of levites that are ashkenazi and have kept themselves from mixture. They are already waiting for the rebuilding if the temple .
@@annelid4728 Jews with C,K or L for their last name are the descendants of Aaron. They are Levites. When you say Jews lie a lot what do you mean? Are they more wicked than other people?
The Jews know who are Levites. Maybe you don't, but that's ok.
ofcourse God is not going to reject all the decendants of Isreal ,they need to come to Christ idividually like everyone
Right
Amen
great insights from both guys. So refreshing to hear debaters that are kind and don’t overtalk each other.
This was an amazing and very informative debate, thank you brothers.
I found Gary had the more reasonable and biblical position.
the regathering is in Christ
exactly. are we not the body of Christ? is it not the Spirit of God who works through us? by this principle are we not able to bind and loose what is in heaven on earth?
@@kreendurron we are, but the unregenerate are not. a lost Jew is in Adam
In Christ, indeed. But Jews have to be restored to their messiah, something that still hasn't happened. Nonetheless, this WILL happen just before the ressurection. And with the ressurection (ezekiel 37, rev 20, thessalonians) the physical regathering in the land.
@@vitorherold the invitation has been open since Christ ascended
Gary DeMar, you're the man!
I happened to listen to this clip just a couple of days after the time of the blood/moon claims by Hagee.
Dr. Brown = "I'm Jewish! Blah blah emotional hype!"
Dr. DeMar = "Calmly exegeses of the scripture."
+Kevin Alawine - So you didn't listen to the first part when Brown is giving an amazing survey of God's promises of faithfulness to Israel throughout Scripture? Or are you just hearing what you want to hear?
+Joseph Knight Thanks for your kindly worded reply. It just seems that those who think Israel has been replaced by the Church ignore the fact that the OT prophetic Scriptures are speaking specifically to ethnic Israel. For example the Zechariah and Ezekiel passages that talk about Jesus coming and placing His literal foot on the Mt. of Olives and it splitting literally to save Israel from literal military enemies, but then somehow the Israel that is mentioned in that passage is then somehow an allegorical Israel? I see the events of Revelation as the culmination of the age and the end of the story of the family of Israel...
+John O'Donnell In Romans chapter 11 the Apostle Paul makes it clear that there is no such thing as a "Gentile Church". The wild Olive tree branches of the Gentiles were grafted in among the Israelite branches that believed in Christ. The unbelieving Israelite branches were broken off, but can be grafted back in through faith in Christ. There is now no salvation outside of the Church, which is the Olive tree. One of the biggest problems in interpretation occurs in Romans 11:26 when the word "so" (Greek-houto), which is an adverb of manner, is replaced by the word "then", which is an adverb of time. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Blood Covenant of Christ which is "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6. This covenant is not waiting on a future fulfillment. The Deliverer came out of Zion about 2,000 years ago. Another problem is the idea of Israel's blindness. All of Israel cannot be "partially blinded", because then none of them could see that Jesus was the Messiah. Instead, some of the Israelites were blinded and some of the Israelites were not blinded. Consider supporting Jews for Jesus or Word of Messiah Ministries, who are taking the Gospel to the Jewish people now. We also need to thank the Jewish Christians, like the speaker here, who are spreading the Gospel to the Jewish people. We want to graft the branches broken off, back into the Olive Tree.
+Joseph Knight However, God gave them specific promises about that land and that all Israel would be saved. The big issue here is about whether God keeps His promises. I already know that "well, the New Covenant supercedes and adds to the Old" however, it is GOD who said it. For the sake of Abraham, He DOES care about the children of Israel still. Anything else is replacement theology.
Gary Demar hands down was the winner 🥇 🙌🏽
No.
@@christianity4245 😂Yes!
100% Not even close.
Now this was a very interesting debate well more like a serious discussion I've heard in awhile and good formatted also, this dose have one to really think about what we hear in main stream Christianity and what to the rite interpretation of the words used, will watch this one again for better understanding myself, thank you Dr Brown and Dr DeMar.
Gary demar the winner..
Solid biblical basis
Gary's viewpoint is correct.
I think they both are right. My personal opinion though.
Orthodox Preterists such as DeMar and Stephen Sizer are very straightforward in their approaches to eschatology. I rarely see a preterist use ad hominem tactics or condescending humor to make their point. They let scripture interpret scripture. Brown condescends and loves his belittling gotcha catch phrases. Many dispensationalists go further with uncalled for attacks against anyone presenting evidence against their position. To an unbiased observer, it appears the dispensationalists feel they need such uncivil tactics to make up for their weak positions. A strong position needs no such things to make their points.
Ortodox Preterists are one of the reason for the blindness of the church, to identify the false "Jehova witnesses " aka watchtower. When Isaiah 43:10 clearly speaks to the people of Israel.
I admire the willingness of both to debate. Awesome job, thought provoking, research provoking! Thankyou!
"This underscores everything I've said that 'the spiritual promises are spiritually fulfilled and the physical promises must be physically fulfilled'" BUT Jesus HIMSELF rejects this line of flaw reasoning by simply asking: *For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Mark **8:36* you strain at the gnat ignoring the certain death of choking on the camel!
What gift is a carnal real-estate transaction to those who are perishing?? What favor can God possibly be doing by brokering real-estate for the eternally damned??
inTruthbyGrace so many issues with your comment, you clearly don’t understand Dr browns position
Instead of quoting Spurgeon and Martin Lloyd Jones in his opening, I wish Brown had quoted evidence from the BIBLE.
I agree. Quoting Spurgeon and Lloyd Jones was a fallacy called "appeal to authority." I appreciate both of those men but there's no higher authority than Scripture (and both those potent preachers would agree with that).
Great debate of two men I respect and listen to. As a panmilliniest I see they both see the responsibility of the great commission NOW.
Wow most respectful and productive debate I’ve ever heard
Men of God both sides have Holy Spirit
I agree with Gary on conclusion/position
New Covenant Whole Gospel:
Let us now share the Old Testament Gospel found below with the whole world. On the road to Emmaus He said the Old Testament is about Him.
He is the very Word of God in John 1:1, 14.
Awaken Church to this truth.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1 (Gal. 3:16)? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel (John 1:49)? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (Acts 2:36)
DeMar is correct. The Church is the Israel of God and Israel is the Church in the wilderness. You can use the terms interchangeably.
@Logos Logistics The Church comprises of saints from every tongue, tribe, people and nation who have put their faith in Christ for salvation.
Wow. Both men did awesome! This has been best challenger to usually unbeatable dr. Brown. I will be studying this
I wonder if Dr Brown sees that the "branches " on the tree are all in common "believers"?
And what life do the branches have without the root? Who is the root, again? All branches are one in Christ, and without Christ, you can have your physical blessings, but they will not outlast the heavenly ones.
Both these guys are excellent. Brown has some great points as does DeMar. Very impressive indeed. God bless
TheGeneral that’s my feeling too
There is no doubt that the scriptures teach that the church is the Israel of promise. However the confusion for most people is about the prophecy of the end times. I will have to do more studies on this. But so far from what I can perceive... it’s that in the last days a lot of Jews will turn to Jesus. Not all but a lot. That is to say whoever God preserved till that day.
Only took Gary DeMar less than two minutes to blow dr. Browns argument out of the park. (Flawless Victory)😁
It only took 60 seconds for DeMar to reach for a non-biblical source to prop up his position. That is so Calvinist its disturbingly normal practice. But its from Roman Catholicism and used by Jean Cauvin and the tradition is dutifully carried on by his followers to this very day.
@@Baltic_Hammer6162 I’ll take that as an ignorant compliment 😂
@@ReformedGibberish5881 Oh, thou self deluded one! How quick you are to make snap assessments knowing nothing about the background of the poster of the information.
But no shock, its how Jean Cauvin operated in ignorance and extreme narcissism enforced by the sword and torture chamber.
I'm still trying to find the passage where Jesus commanded his followers to have their own personal torturer.
@@Baltic_Hammer6162 sorry you feel that way
@@ReformedGibberish5881 Why?? Its not "feelings" that I base anything I post, its all direct experience of years of 1st hand observing Purest Calvinism in action behind the curtain (and masks) AND dogged research digging through piles of lies to find the truth of Jean Cauvin. As Jesus declared...can a rotten tree produce good fruit?
Dr. Brown keeps pressing this point about not being able to have, as he said, "part one literal and part two spiritual without making God's word gibberish" 51:54 Well, why not? Jesus told the woman at the well that they would no longer worship in Jerusalem but from now on they would worship in spirit and in truth. In a way, that is the whole point of the New Covenant we go from gathering around a physical temple in Jerusalem to our bodies being the temple or as Peter states it, "a spiritual house." We go from sacrificing literal lambs to offering our bodies as living sacrifices. I think Dr. Brown is mistaken on that point.
As long as Dr. Brown sees a dichotomy in the Body of Christ between Jew and Greek he's exalting one over the other which is doing harm to the Body of Christ. Galatians 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Gary DeMar's position is undeniably biblical. It makes so much better sense as it is grounded in the totality of the Word of God. If the New Testament is allowed to interpret the Old, there is no way, that "Jewish fables" can be entertained.
Awesome debate that ended EVEN MORE AWESOMELY!
Replacement theologians deny Daniel’s 70th week and thus Daniel 9:27, the rebuilt Third Jewish Temple, and its desecration by the future Antichrist.
By just treating the word "eklesia" in a proper manner, Gary won this debate, hands down.
Acts 7:38 KJV
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Demar won. Overall you can just listen to him reading the scriptures and his focus is on getting the gospel to the world where brown kept making analogies and was constantly just focused on the land. This is what we see in modern Christianity. are we focused on Jesus or the land? When Brown said if God scattered us how could we regather and break His scattering is when Brown lost the debate.
I just found this debate on your channel. It’s very interesting and seems to explain a lot that Dr. Brown takes umbrage at Gentiles having equality with Jews, in Yeshua the Messiah through the crucifixion. It’s a little scary.
Dr. Brown is right.People don't understand the battle between good and evil....The controversy over this is huge and I believe what God says.My faith is only enlarged by believing God will fulfill His word concerning Israel.I wait on the Lord....and reject the summary of mere impatient men.
Excellent, Dr. DeMar. The strongest presentation to bring correction to Christian Zionism. I've long been concerned that Messianic Judaism is simply theological over for the land mythology. And likewise, Christendom needs more teaching that provided on the core insight - The Ekklesia, or the congregation. Thank you. Now, the sad reality is my Brother in Christ, Dr. Brown, and others who profess a search for truth will ignore your correction teaching and revert back to the softer zionist apologetic.
+kennethdpricedotcom bloggerken I don't care about your religious beliefs, Zionism is a movement to free Jewish people from persecution, probably from people exactly like you. Now, feel free to have your little religious debates, as long as you don't speak against Jewish nationalism. But, if you are an anti-Zionist, then you are pro-Jewish persecution. Don't confuse your own religious problems with Jewish people trying to live in safety.
+Daniel Swindell First of all, Daniel, I don't recall asking for you to care, provide permission, or even respond to my comments. Likewise, I could not care less about some false narrative that now perverts Christianity to persecute Palestinians - including Palestinian Christians. Further, some of what you call persecution is simply judgment from God - and that is Biblical (as in the case of the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions). In addition, as an African American, the Jews might likewise repent for what they did do people of African descent - some thing I'm sure Jews are not taught. And as for persecution, one need not preach that line to blacks who've experiences much worst persecutions (including by Jews), without requiring the world to pay tribute and blood on some boogeyman ideology. DeMar completely deconstructed Mr. Brown's arguments. We need to get off this Zionist foolishness and share Christ with Jews. Your silliness about pro-persecution is also hypocritical as pro-Zionisst are pro-Palestinian persecution. God has one Chosen People - His Congregation (i.e., Ekklesia). Decide if you will accept or continue to reject Christ as all promises are now found in this.
kennethdpricedotcom bloggerken moron.
+Daniel Swindell You don't know how much I enjoy people that respond as you do. Thank you for revealing your depth - or better yet, lack thereof.
+LXX Researcher problem is confusion over definition. A biblical Israelite is someone who is under the covenant. It's not an ethnicity. Modern definition of jew is someone who has had jewish ancestors.
Bernie sanders or marx are just unbelieving gentiles. Their jewish ancestry means bubkas to God.
God has a remnant and the remnant is Gods assembly and God’s assembly has people of all kindreds, all nations and all bloods on earth!
Gods remnant is referred to as congregation, assembly and church!
I'm sorry Dr. Brown but, I totally agree with Gary. Especially after reading the Darby translation which correctly translates Ecclesia (Which is absolutely hilarious because Darby's translation refutes his own Eschatology).
Wasn't Darby one of the big Pre-Tribulation theory gusy?
There are those who believe the Old Testament is about the Jews, and those who believe it is about Jesus the Messiah. Just as there are those who believe the New Testament is about the Church and those who believe it is about Jesus the Messiah.
I think this debate can be resolved by examining whether God deal with a whole nation all the time or he deals with the remnants.From the time of the exodus(the generation that murmured did not enter the land) to the grafting in of the gentiles(when those who sat in the seat of Moses to have missed bcos of jealousy)God has shown in the pages that he deals with the remnants.
Glad to hear what Dr Brown reported about John Hagee
is this a debate for or against replacement theology? What are they debating here? demar is clearly not a replacement theologist, he is extremly biblical, clear and reasonable in his understanding and delivery.
No one teaches replacement theology. It's a red herring from the 80s that gets tossed around. Its a failure to understand what non dispensationalist believe. People forget dispensationalism is an entire system.
There seems to be a rejection of what Paul clearly teaches. I see this over and over and over again. And I have to ask, Why?
I wrote a comment above that I believe explains why. Many do not want to accept what God teaches, what Scripture teaches. Forget about the labels.
Great intelligent debate between two guys I like in the apologist arena. Although I agree way more with Gary Demar. Dr White made some good points too thanks guys!
I feel this entire debate can be answered with one passage. Galatians 3:16, 26-29. This clearly shows who the promises were made to. We can go even further and read Romans 2:25, where Paul says with explicit detail that unless one obeys the law perfectly, he becomes uncircumcised (Gentile.) This all being said, we see the reality is that Jesus is the only true Jew, and the rest of humanity is Gentile, due to our sinfulness. But the hope given in Gal 3:26-29 is clear. If we are found in Christ, we belong to the promises. See, the thing I think they both missed in touching on, is that Christ Jesus is the TRUE Israel, and only those found in HIM, belong to Israel, regardless of ethnic background. All believers are Jews in Christ, and all unbelievers are Gentiles, outside of Christ. It really is that simple. Praise God, that I have been adopted as a son, heir to the promises, along with all my brothers and sisters of ALL ethnic backgrounds. One in Christ Jesus. "Here, we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come." - Hebrews 13:14
Except that this forgets Romans 11:25-27 " For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters,[q] so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number[s] of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The Deliverer will come out of Zion; he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”
Israel is special to God. They are currently, from Paul's writing through today and into our future, hardened. They are not part of the "full number of the Gentiles" being brought in. They will be saved because of God's covenant. Because of this, we know that Israel is also not the Church. They are already a part of Christ; they do not need to be grafted in. And until the "full number of the Gentiles" have come in, the hardening will not be lifted.
@@Bob-rd3dg False. Paul teaches that the unbelieving Jews were broken off.
“Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear" (Romans 11:19-20).
He also teaches that they can be grafted back into the Olive tree.
"And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree." (Romans 11:23-24).
The problem in your theology, is that you are creating multiple Olive Trees. One that is Israel and one that is the Church. Clearly, as I have shown, Paul has only one Olive Tree, one covenant people, made up of natural (Jewish) and unnatural (Gentile) branches. This is the Christian Church, united together by Christ.
In reference to the passage you shared: yes and amen. Ethnic Israel will be saved, but not by a different means than me and you. They will be saved by faith in Christ, re-grafted into the already existing olive tree-the Christian Church. God's people are not divided as Paul makes clear. All Israel being saved comes solely through faith in Christ, and union to his body.
Hi @@merecatholicity. Thanks for the reply.
First, after reading your post, I have to ask: what IS my theology? You know my entire theology from a couple of paragraphs?
Second, I have one Olive Tree -- which is Christ Jesus. The church is made up of people. It is not an entity in and of itself. The church is made up of believing Gentiles and converted Jews. Unbelieving Jews are branches that will be broken off the tree. Believing church members can be grafted into the tree. This breaking off or grafting in is a symbol of salvation. Branches that don't repent are thrown into the fire. The church can not save you -- only Christ can do that.
Next, the church and Israel are not the same. We have the church since Jesus began building it. Israel existed long before. Today the church is growing, but Israel is hardened. Is part of the church hardened? Scripture does not say this. The church has a path as shown in scripture. Israel will remain hardened until the number of the Gentiles have come in.
This leads into the saving of all Israel. Israel is not the entirety of the Jews. The Jews are the children of Abraham. Israel began with Jacob. Israel has a special promise and a special relationship with God. In the end, all of Israel will be saved. That goes back to Jacob. The majority of these people are dead, never having heard of Christ. Do they get a chance after death, contrary to scripture, prior to Judgement? My bible tells me it is given once for man to die and then the judgement. Not, oh, one chance to accept Christ. Or perhaps you're into the concept of the elect, in which case a hardening of Israel makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Ahh, but Israel shall be saved -- they actually are the elect. Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. The saved Gentile are not the elect -- they must have faith and believe in Christ Jesus to be saved.
Back to your first reply, though, and my initial response to it. Israel and the church are two different entities. Israel is elected by God and will be saved -- not by overt acceptance of Jesus, but because Jesus blood is what will cleanse their sins. As a promise, not a calling. The church is to pull in the number of Gentiles. The church and Israel are different. It takes mental gymnastics (and special definitions of words) to pull them together.
They didn’t hit on it because this statement is false. Unbelievers are not Gentiles and believers are Jews. That isn’t biblical. There are believing Gentiles and Jews and unbelieving Gentiles and Jews.
@@hbkw7020 Read Romans 2.
Jesus stated He came to fulfill the law, that the prophets prophesied about Him. Paul clearly states in Gal 3:16 “Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ”. The promises were made to Christ through Abraham.
+TheRevering Thanks for your gracious comments. I find that the more I look at Postmillenialism the more it makes sense to me and I do think Chilton's take on Revelation is very biblical and meritorious. I think because our mindsets are so automatically tuned to dispensational premillennialism due to the current culture that it is too much of an ask to see that the majority of Revelation has already been fulfilled.
I believe that all of it has been fulfilled
@@martinhenderson5503 Yes this is a view which I now hold.
@thecanberean a men I'm glad u have found the truth
Gary DeMar won this debate hands down. Thanks and God bless to whoever posted this video.
Interesting, I thought that Dr. Brown won it hands down with Scripture.
It didn't seem to me that either of them "won" the debate, although I thought (mainly because of Dr. Brown) that some differences were cleared up
Utahstrong
Then God bless Dr. Brown who put this video up.
I'm not a Zionist. I'm a member of the body of Christ. in a saved son of God and I'm in Gods kingdom, a far greater and better and superior reality than a piece of real estate in the middle east.
Never answered the question “How do the Jews overture the judgment of God scattering?” the answer is no one can overturn the judgment of God.
Yeah that is when brown llost the debate. We could go on and on in the Scriptures where nonbelievers have “achieved” things…seeming like they have thwarted God’s judgment.
@@Welcome_To_Life I don’t believe brown lost the debate. Also, we’re not talking about achieving things we’re talking about God’s judgment to remove the Jews authority over Israel and God now allowed them to come back and have authority that cannot happen unless God reverses his judgment.
So is Dr. Brown saying that Israel trumps Jesus? That once the Jews come back, they will institute temple worship, or they come back and then suddenly believe in Jesus?
To be fair to Dr Brown (and I don't agree with him), he doesn't say that. I think he would would say that the Jews being brought to Israel is part of God's plan for salvation, not to bring back the Temple.
Yes, some dispensationalists actually do, blasphemously, believe that temple sacrifices will be reinstituted and that this will be the work of God. As you pointed out, Dr Brown does not hold to that. But yes, it’s sickening and an offense to Christ’s work on the cross.
they dont even follow their own book , Pagans askanaNAZI jews
@@erc9468 the problem is his whole argument demands it. He goes on and on “there MUST be physical fulfillment otherwise it’s meaningless” therefore his hermeneutic would demand a new temple with animal sacrifices.
What is more literal, the physical or the Spiritual?
Are we so dull, so hard of heart that we don't understand?
Why do dispensationalist ignore that God did fulfill His promise to return the Jews to their land when Xerxes permitted them to return and rebuild during the days of Ezra. They skip this return and then accuse God of not fulfilling His promise in the year 2017. I respect Brown, but DeMar has repeatedly explained in a debate about "replacement theology" that in Christ the Gentiles are INCLUDED but Brown, like the Jews in Jesus' day is talking about the land. I didn't realize how damaging dispensationalism was until recently.
never to be uprooted again.......?
The “renewed” covenant was always a land covenant starting with Abraham, renewed with Isaac and renewed with Jacob and renewed again at Mt. Sinai with Israel and the mixed multitude who joined them. Same as pictured in Revelation. Not only has the full land which was promised never yet been fulfilled, the New Jerusalem comes down to earth exactly where the land of Israel sits...there’s no promise of spending eternity out in “space” somewhere. The only promise is for God to dwell on earth with mankind like He did with Adam and Eve on Mt. Zion which is in the Promised Land.
Asherit it’s not a renewed covenant. God was clear that it was a NEW COVENANT. Stop adding to GOD’S WORD.
@@speechgirl36 so God was mistaken when Joshua wrote all the promises were fulfilled? was paul mistaken in rom 4:13?
bruce mercer Blameless & Shameless When did heaven and earth pass away which is when Jesus said that all would be fulfilled. You misunderstand Paul when you take him out of the context of Jesus’ Words.
God DID fulfill ALL His promises to Israel - Joshua 21:45 Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass.
Joshua 23:14
"Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed.
1 Kings 8:56
"Blessed be the LORD, who has given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He promised; not one word has failed of all His good promise, which He promised through Moses His servant.
Hundreds of Jews have already been saved in Israel. God has always called Israel His people because He chose them, not because they chose Him. He is faithful to His promises.
@@57andstillkicking Joshua 23:14 "Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed.
I feel like I need to listen to this twice. It was too dense for grocery shopping at the same time!
At 19:00 Dr. Brown reveals one of his greatest presuppositions is that Satan himself thinks he has a chance at thwarting God's plan. Does Satan not know God is sovreign!?
God's promise to Abraham is : " I Wiill make you __a nation". (Genesis 12:1-3)
Jesuschrist prophecy is : " I Will build My Church " Matthew (16:18).
The Nation of Israel are called: "Offspring of evildoers , ..a harlot." (Isaiah 1:v4 and v21)
The Church people are called: " The children of God " 1JOHN 3:1
And he also said that Abraham will be the father of many “nations”. Plural. Nations. This is why of course the seed of Abraham is Christ and where the focus should always be. When people focus on a nation more than Christ we have a problem
Also. Haven’t dna test shown that Palestinians, especially the Christian’s sects have more DNA connection to the original tribes ?
The land was promised to the descendant of Abraham. That descendant is found in Matthew 1:1. This is confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16. The promises made to Abraham were made to the one seed, instead of the many seeds. In Matthew chapter 21 Jesus said that the land belongs to "the son" who is the "heir". He is the descendant of Abraham who holds the title deed to the land. He paid for it with His blood at Calvary. He is Israel.
I love Dr Brown. The land of Israel is key. The re-gathering of Israelites to the land is key. Yahshua will return to the land & rule for a thousand years from the land . The nations will be going to Jerusalem in the land of Israel to keep the feast of tabernacle every year during the millennium. All these will happen literally physically. You can’t change it to spiritual!
Great job Gary DeMar
The church was in the wilderness a long, long time before it was at Jerusalem!
Acts 7:37-38 KJV
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. [38] This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Jesus said that when you read of the Prophets, you read of Him. Throughout all the old testament it leads you to a new covenant to Israel. A covenant of grace. But when Israels Messiah appeared to them They rejected Him and accused Him of being of a devil. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often I wanted to gather you as a hen her chicks, but you would have it not. Israel was given the honor of and responsibility of taking care of Gods Vineyard, so to speak, because through Abraham's seed, the world would be blessed. That's talking about Jesus. Read Mark 12: 1-12 They blew it and God took it from them and gave it to another. Jesus cursed the fig tree ( representative of Israel ) and said that never again will they bare fruit. All through the Gospels Jesus preached to the Jews. His message to them was believe on the name of Jesus Christ and be saved. The church was born in Christ. It was Jewish , then later Gentiles were grafted in. The new covenant has been declared to all the world, to the Jew first and than the Gentile also. I don't see two covenants at work here at all. One of genealogy and another by Faith. The Jews claimed they were of Abraham and Jesus said you seek to kill me, you are of your father the devil. John 8: 37 - 47 In order for Israel to be Gods people today, according to my understanding of Jesus's words they must believe in Jesus Christ , which means they would than enter the Church. To say that to replace Israel with the church is false, it seems to me you take sides with the Scribe's and Pharisee's. Israel today follows the Tulmud. Do your research. It says that Jesus is burning in hell in his excrement and Mary is a harlot. They are committing war crimes and a host of of ocultic practices through Kabballa. So I ask what fellowship has Light with darkness. If you are in Love with Jesus, lift up His name and share the good news. If the Bible predicts a future repentance for Israel put them in Gods hands by prayer and quit supporting them in their sins because you will be held accountable as they will be. The early church did not split over escatology ( study of last days ) issues. When we stand before God on Judgement day we will be rewarded for what we did with Christ. Not rather that we support Israel in these middle east wars. Without Love we are just noise. It's all about Jesus not land or Genealogy. Jesus last words on the cross " It Is Finished. "
Dennis Barry read Romans 8-11
Read Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Zechariah
The fact that there are no more tribes makes it painfully obvious that old covenant Israel is no longer around
Moreover, since all records of which israelite belonged to such tribe were destroyed in the AD 67-70 Fall of Jerusalem & Destruction of the Temple, there are NO records extant !
Please Brethren, Dr Brown, etc. al, stop trying to put a Comma where the LORD has put a PERIOD.
@Re L Sure he does! They belong to the Tribe of Christ
all the promises were fulfilled when Jesus raised from the dead (acts 13, 2cor1)
Not the ones pertaining to Israel. Only to salvation.
@@christinetranchell4224 read acts 13:13-41, and read what God said. u may also want to read josh 23:14-15, and josh 24:2-13. all the promises are IN Christ. in fact Jesus told the jews that the OT was about HIM not THEM
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 promises to Israel are still going to be fulfilled in Christ. Not yet. The nations will be judged for dividing the land. See Joel 3.
@@christinetranchell4224 joel 3 fulfilled in Christ
1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him, a living stone-rejected by men but chosen and valuable to God- 5 you yourselves, as living stones, are being built into a spiritual house for a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it is contained in Scripture:
Look! I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and honored[c] cornerstone,[d]
and the one who believes in Him
will never be put to shame![e][f]
7 So honor will come to you who believe, but for the unbelieving,
The stone that the builders rejected-
this One has become the cornerstone,[g]
8 and
A stone to stumble over,[h]
and a rock to trip over.[i][j]
They stumble because they disobey the message; they were destined for this.
9 But you are a chosen race,[k][l] a royal priesthood,[m]
a holy nation,[n] a people for His possession,[o]
so that you may proclaim the praises[p][q]
of the One who called you out of darkness
into His marvelous light.
10 Once you were not a people,
but now you are God’s people;
you had not received mercy,
but now you have received mercy.
Titus 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
@@brucemercerblamelessshamel3104 Gods word Is Not a Jewish fable! When was Joel 3:12 fulfilled?? When did the Lord cleanse and hold innocent the blood of Judah and avenge it? Judah 3:21. In Amos 9 God says I will bring back the exiles of my people Israel,they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them,they shall plant vineyards and drink the wine from them....and I will plant them on their land and they shall no longer be torn from their land which I gave them says the Lord your God. When was that fulfilled?? 1948!
Great debate! Why is it so hard for Brown to understand that if God wants to go beyond the scope of his original promises and expand the land promises to the ends of the world, He can do so. That doesn't make Him a promise breaker. Brown gives the impression that he would be offended if God dared add more to the promises. In 1 Corth. 3 Paul's tells us that the world is ours. If I promised to give you a hundred dollars and then gave you a thousand dollars instead would you dare think I broke my promise?
Secondly, I don't see why DeMar didn't bring up the point that every promise made will be physically fulfilled in the new heavens and earth. The OT prophets and saints didn't know of two advents of the Messiah but only one. So when you understand that, you see that you have to read the OT prophesies fulfillment as being inaugurated in His first coming and brought to its consummation in his second.
If God no longer works in history, we may safely ignore the modern nation of Israel. For that matter, let us forget the real world and join gnostics in a spiritualizing of everything.
DeMar says there was no Church Israel distinction in the NT at 2:04:10 - Paul makes a clear distinction...
1 Corinthians 10:32 KJV - Give none offence, neither to the JEWS, nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD (Ecclessia):
True Israel was never about Flesh!
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:5. Look out for the DOGS, look out for the EVILDOERS, look out for those (OF THE CONCISION) who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) and put no confidence in the flesh. Philippians 3:2-3. [emphasis added by me] AMEIN!
Scripture identifies who the true Israel is: A promise to Abraham and to his seed, not seeds... Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) is that seed. Messiah (the perfect Israel) imputed into us through faith, ''the hope of glory.'' Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Messiah. Galatians 3:16. That is, all of us in Yeshua (Jesus), ''the true Israel.'' Hallelujah! And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, (Yeshua the seed) and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they ARE NOT all Israel, which are of (fleshly/national) Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. that is, they which are the CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, these ARE NOT the children of God: but the CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE are counted for the seed. Romans 9:6-8. Heb.11:13. For he IS NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But HE IS a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, IN THE SPIRIT, and not in the letter (FLESH); whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:28-29. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the ''Israel of God.'' Galatians 6:16. [emphasis added by me]
Pray for a ''peaceful'' dismantlement of the zionist state that arrogantly refers to itself as Israel. This nationalistic cult does not represent the blessedness of the Jewish people, their culture, their religion, nor their blessed ethnic heritage. Pray for the Jewish people, the Muslim people, and all peoples throughout the world. Also, pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Land, is not what these religious people need. Yeshua (Jesus) is ''Who'' they need! For he (Abraham) looked for a city which hath foundations, WHOSE BUILDER AND MAKER IS GOD. Hebrews 11:10. The Almighty will build not the Israelis! Our coming Messiah will establish the New Jerusalem as His sanctuary capital exclusively for His Anointed Israel. It is not about a fleshly nationalistic state capital built by the hands of man as is taught by the contemporary premillennial heresy. The city of the New Jerusalem is destined, by the Almighty, to be the eternal capital of the new heavens and earth. And on that day, there will be peace forevermore.
Bo Yeshua Bo... Come Lord Jesus come...
Patrick Williamson
Thank you so much for that, because your words put me in remembrance of what I learned when i was in Hawaii 86-87. But me being a simple minded man Bro. Brown's words kind of take the spiritual reality out of things.
I'm just saying that you made me smile with those Comforting words.
Jesus is HERE now as He lives inside every believer (John 14:23). He’s omnipresent therefore He is truly Immanuel !
So what prophecies from pre Babylonian exile and why would many of those not apply to the Jews not returning from that exile. And also. It says over and over I promise _____ for ever if you ______. So what happens when they didn’t follow that condition.
Dr. DeMar is the clear winner in this debate. Keep in mind that I and Dr. DeMar are not of the same theological persuasion.
+Nektarios H
I didn't think that at all. The scattering issue, the preservation of the Jews and the judgement issue was not dealt with.
Mr. Brown you have the right to be wrong. You are a great blessing to those who believe ALL that the prophets have spoken. You show us just how subtle and crafty the adversary is. One day even you will agree with Gary.
I think Dr. Brown's point about scattering and regathering is a check mate for the replacement position:
Hear the word of the Lord , O nations, And declare in the coastlands afar off, And say, "He who scattered Israel will gather him And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock."
Jeremiah 31:10
Not really. Define "Israel."
Jesus said it too but they rejected Him. End of story
Some of those unfulfilled promises Dr Brown spoke about may be fulfilled in the new Heaven and Earth, because nothing is ever perfect here, we all remain sinners though we are believers.
Besides the fact that it's totally speculative, verifiably ahistorical, utterly nonsensical and completely unbiblical, dispensationalism is a really wonderful theory.
"Dispensationalism =
Bible lite Delusional "exempt me from my Christian Duty" escapism, that appears scholarly in its complexity, yet lacking all Foundational or Covenentally coherency.
Perfect for a church steeped in humanism.
I'm told its nearly unknown outside the USA, suggesting it's an 'American aberration' !
We are so Blessed to have escaped this trap - all praise to God !
Great debate. I do believe Dr. Brown’s position was the biblical & persuasive one.
how so? just wondering how one can get that from this debate.. my mind was changed from this debate because of demar... I am a very logical person..and dr brown seems to try to squirm out unsuccessfully a lot..
@@jeremysmith5363 hey brother, thanks for the respectful question!
For me, Dr. Brown showed from the Scriptures that if God was the One who exiled His Jewish people, then He’s the only One who can bring them back to the land.
Also, Romans 9:1-5 & Romans 11:28-29 say clearly that God’s calling (national election) & gifts (including the land) to Israel are irrevocable. And Romans 9:1-5 state that the covenants still belong to unbelieving Israel although without faith in Jesus, they don’t participate in all its blessings.
Those are some of my reasons.
I got it Mr. Demar. Great job. Wow. Dominion not escape. And I heard you answer the question about the scattering and the gathering. God did bring them together as one new man in Christ. We have come to the heavenly city.
+Helen Williamson
Incorrect. The diaspora happens after 70 a.d
Jesus, testifies that Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles "until'
he predicts the great diaspora. That regathering hasn't happened.
Joel 3:2
I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.
Now read the a timeline on antisemitism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism
History bears witness and is not lying.
*****
The body of "messiah" includes the chosen people and the congregation as *one*. Its ludicrous to think that God told Abraham all the physical borders of the land if that had no bearing on the future.
*****
Lets start with "there is no female or male"
You admit that there are females and that Paul didn't permit a women to teach?
*****
I am not, "moving away" I want to get to each point in the discussion. As for Paul he states this right after talking about Women not teaching: …"13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."
Do you admit that Paul is stating there is a difference between Men and Women?
*****
You brought up this scripture, recall. its important we go through this "step by step" and we can get to all the other issues in "steps". You will admit that there are actually Women and Men. I don't think you will deny this. I want to write in small amounts so as to get the point across. This is relevant, do you have an idea why Paul said the statement about "male and female, slave and free" etc?
Why do you think he said this?
Gentiles who put faith in Jesus are no longer foreigners, but fellow citizens (Ephesians 2:12-14)--hence Israelites. Believing Gentiles have been grafted on to the tree that Jewish unbelievers have been broken off of--the tree that connected them to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (the family of Israel). The Church is not the new Israel, but old Israel, under a New Covenant. Michael Brown is, I think, almost right when he says that the word "Israel" in the New Testament always refers to physical Israel. But there is one time when he is certainly wrong: When Paul speaks of the Israel of God, in Galatians 6:16. (Read verse 15, which makes it clear, who Paul is talking about.) This really IS the Church.
Since "flesh and blood " cannot inherit the kingdom of God, 1Cor. 15:50 I wonder what is the purpose of a third re-gathering of Israel in the flesh?
Joyce R U Serious where does scripture say a ‘third’ regathering is to happen?
Unless a man be born again... he can not enter the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is here and the kingdom of heaven is where we go where we put off this flesh.
In respect to the kingdom of god... Jesus said in John 14... I my fathers house there are many dwellings... he died to prepare a place.... by his spirit. As he said unless I go.... "he" the spirit can't come. The kingdom is here... the new heaven and new earth was established A.D. 70
@@jcismyall It doesn't
@@mahyakc8369 there is no 3 temples in the Bible. None and no where
@@mahyakc8369 there is no where in scripture that speaks of this
Honestly, I hate debates. It's not "Come, let us reason together." It's more win or lose. If the wrong side loses, everyone loses in a debate like this. I gringe at many of the comments below. It's just about a side far more than it is about what is God telling us. That is not good. Instead of "come let us reason together" it's more like "come let us dig our heels further in the sand."
@Stephen Paul says we are grafted in to one tree, I think. But God's plan for His chosen people is a separate plan for the Jews that still believe in the old covenant before Jesus.
As Paul said, blindness in part has come upon Israel for the sake of the gentiles. I notice that this is not spoken of very much. Not popular I suppose. Probably doesn't fit many church doctrines. Only fits God's plan. Everyone wants their own club, not necessarily the truth.
In the end, we will all be one, those that accept Jesus. And God and Jesus will be their light and their temple.
Hard to believe it's going to be a little over a thousand years for it all to be completed. A thousand years after Christ's second coming.
Off the top of my head, I think that's the gist of it.
@Stephen The blindness in part is part of God's plan for our salvation. Paul explains this in Romans 11:25,26 especially and Romans 11:32. But certainly read the entire passage Romans 11:11 through the end of the chapter.
And here is a very good explanation by Pastor Chuck Smith:
"Paul the apostle in Romans the eleventh chapter, in talking about the grace of God that has come to us Gentiles, declares that God has taken up like a wild olive branch and grafted us into the roots of the Old Testament promises that we might be the partakers of the blessings that God promised to Abraham and all.
That God cut off the natural branch, Israel, that we might be grafted in.
However, Paul said, "Don't boast against the natural branch" (Romans 11:18). As Christians we should not be boasting against Israel saying, "Well, nya nya nya, God cut you off and He's adopted us. And we have your blessings and we have your, the promises that God made to you."
For Paul said, "If God cut off the natural branch to graft in a wild branch, He's also able to graft in again the natural branch." And he said, "Did God cut it off that He might cast it away forever? God forbid. For blindness has happened in Israel in part (or for a time) until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in and then all of Israel shall be saved.
For God shall send forth a deliverer out of Zion to turn the hearts of the children unto their fathers," as he quotes the passage from Joel, second chapter.
So, even in the New Testament, Paul does not seek to make this prophecy concerning Israel apply to the church. The church has a separate place as a wild olive branch grafted in to partake of the fatness of the roots. But even as we have been grafted in and the natural branch cut off that we might be grafted in, so God will again restore His work on Israel."
I could not have said it better than Chuck Smith.
@Stephen Romans 2:28,29 is true of anyone, Jew or Christian.
Israel. 1948. God will defend Israel according to Ezekiel 38,39 I think it is for His name's sake. Check out Ezekiel 39:23. “The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity;"
The chosen people are still the chosen people. Nothing has changed.
Devout Jews that are not Messianic Jews are still His chosen people.
@Stephen I agree, it is good to reason together. May God bless you and yours.
@Stephen No. I can only guess at it. Never really checked it out. But I think it is significant.
I like Gary MeMar, and I've heard him do much better in other debates. He never seemed to get his footing in this one.
Dr. Brown is very good at that. Dr Demar has to stop him several times before the focus is shifted away from the present topic. I do enjoy both of them 'sometimes thou i disagree with both at same time in some things