These scholars treat this subject carefully and respectfully. I loved Marcus’ comment, “Young earth creationists and old earth creationists here, we are the cousins at the family gathering. We see each other a lot. And that’s one of the reasons why sometimes we’ve argued so hard with one another. It is because we’re in the same family. … Fuz and I would be probably perfectly comfortable being in the same denomination, in the same chapel, taking communion together.”
What a great dialog! I so appreciated the respectful tone and actual discussion between the two parties. This is a model of how to have these conversations in a Christlike way
This was probably the most civil debate on the topic I've seen, which is wonderful. However, if I were a YEC, after watching this I still would be. I feel like Marcus provided more examples of evidence to support his claims (even though they've been refuted by RTB in other videos). To be fair, Fuz often wasn't afforded the opportunity to counter his claims, or at least not enough time to do it well.
Hi Zyned, for everything Marcus Ross says, we should assume there is serious scholarship to back it up. You say that his arguments have been refuted by RTB in videos. However, at his level, these arguments are discussed in scientific papers. Scientific literature stands to RUclips videos as chess stands to tic-tac-toe. Anyway, I agree with you that this was a very civil discussion; a pleasure to watch!
The Genesis texts leave a lot of gray area, out of which interpreters across the centuries have elucidated narratives which they claim are the only way to read those texts. In the end, the Lord has given us what is sufficient for us. Have faith in Him, and don't sweat the details. He knows what he did, and we don't know everything.
in actuality that's why I tend to believe more in an old earth creation now... simply because God doesn't rush things... He is infinite and didn't need to rush. I feel it was broken down for us simply so our finite minds could understand.
I still don't understand why a lion taking down a zebra is too barbaric to be part of God's good creation, but 1 million animals being killed every day just for American consumption, often after living short, torturous lives, is part of living a Godly lifestyle, one that God gives permission for, and blesses.
@@hunterhestekin7420 Christians were sure that God would fix the world "soon" or that Jesus would come back "soon" for the last 2000 years. In pretty much every generation since Jesus died many christians thought they're living in the end times but it's 2000 years later an still nothing happened, so I don't think it will happen soon now either.
God judged animals along with man as a result of man's sin. He killed an animal to clothe Adam and Eve after the fall. He wiped out animals during the flood. And he asked Israel to sacrifice animals as atonement. BUT animal death was not part of God's original creation. Genesis says God gave plants as food for animals. Animal death is not morally evil, but it is evil in a sense that it is an ugly result of the fall. Remember, God did not create thorns in the original creation, but they grew after the Fall. So, even though thorns and predation are not moral evils, they are also not part of an original "very good" creation. Only after the Fall did God punish all creation, including death of man and animals.
15:00 The differences between young earth and old earth seem pretty significant to me. Both sides look at the same evidence, and come to VERY different conclusions. Now, the Trinity? That's just how you read the Bible, right? What I'm getting at, is, in 2024, these doctrines and theological arguments don't mean a whole lot to most people today, particularly in the USA. In saying that, I wish you guys all the best.
How "PARTICULARLY in the USA"? There are probably as many evangelical conservative Christians in the US as in any continent other than North America. Weren't you aware of that? Surely there is a LOT more apathy about the finer points of evangelical Christian exegesis abroad than here?
What is important is that Jesus Christ lives in our hearts. Some believe in taking 100% of the bible literal. Other believe Science is also a revelation from God and a few things in the Bible are not to be taken as literally as people always have. For example the days of creation. Is it 7 24 hour days or was it meant to be 7 very long periods of time. If so them the Bible matches up perfectly with science. So science-minded people can also believe in our great creator
It's not even just taking the Bible literally, it's taking one's English translation and interpretation of that 100% literally. You can take the Bible literally and still have a day-age interpretation of the Genesis days of creation. The Hebrew language allows for that, because Hebrew is not English. And even in English, day can have more than one meaning "back in my day...", as an example.
Have we found any fossils of cats, canines or other carnivores or omnivores that have anatomies consistent with an herbivorous diet? Most people don't realize that the differences between herbivores and the rest are significant and frankly insurmountable.
I don't see what animal death has to do with the discussion at all. Why would the fact of death somehow impugn God's character? It is obvious that in a physical world, the cycle of birth, life and death is essential to maintaining a healthy biome... (If there were no death there could not be birth, as the weight of numbers of creatures would soon swamp the biome if there were). Perhaps the Garden of Eden was some kind of special creation embedded in the natural world but not operating by the same rules, but rather the rules of the new earth, where scripture says there will be no death, and only when Adam and Eve were forced to leave the Garden were they confronted with the reality of physical death? Interesting thought...🤔
It mainly depends on how you think how God created the universe, did he sit down and create each animal individually and actively decided "I'm going to create a murderous shark now that kills other fish"? Then I would say it's a character flaw to create that, but I don't think that's what happened, I think it's more that God just caused the big bang in the beginning and then just let everything develop on its own and then eventually also created humans on earth personally, but I think for all other animals the concept of gradual evolution (initially set in motion by god by creating the first spark of life) is more likely than imagining how the creator or the entire universe would waste time with creating every single type of animal on earth (and most likely on other planets with life on it) one by one.
@@lp4514 I would say it depends more on whether you view death as intrinsically evil or not. Sharks aren't murderous, they kill only for food, and totally without enmity. As do all carnivores (including man). I see nothing evil, or even wrong in that, it's just the way it is. God has made allowance for this also, in the fact that the most predated species produce more offspring than the predators, and display other behaviors such as herding and shoaling which ensure that primarily the weak, elderly or sickly are predated.
@@gordonicus4637 Death itself may not be evil but there's still a difference between a universe where every living being eventually dies but only from old age (which with the additional reduction of the reproduction rate would be enough to prevent overpopulation of our ecosystem) and our world where most living beings also constantly have to worry about being ripped apart and eaten alive. Yes it's not evil because evil is a moral concept that requires an intellect that's advanced enough to understand the concepts of good and evil and animals don't have that but that still doesn't mean that killing another living being is objectively good or perhaps a better way to phrase it, it may not be evil but it certainly isn't the ideal way I would imagine a god would create a perfect universe where animals wouldn't have to constantly fear for their life because there could be a predator around every corner that wants to consume them. I'm aware that that's a philosophical question so I'm not saying I'm not objectively right and you are wrong, it's just my opinion that a benevolent creator wouldn't purposely invent such a system. I'm leaning more towards the buddhist philosophy (which is almost identical to what Jesus taught) that all live is sacred and therefore in a perfect world created by a perfect god there would be no killing, which is why my opinion is that god didn't purposely create that system, it just developed on its own.
Exalted themselves above sitteth in high places! Is like a little child born "i" Am will come to Tree! All deceiver and murderers exalted themselves above don't belongs sitteth! Will shake the TREE! Watch these principalities who deceiveth fall like lightning in front!
Students, what is a book? Lord, obviously, there's an author? Students will say, LORD many books came with many authors! Indeed! Creation will say, "Who's my Author? Keep watch!
I tend to agree more with the old earth creationists... but I disagree with animal predation before the fall. in the prophets when God's kingdom comes lions will not eat lambs and wolves will not eat sheep.... children will be able to play with poisonous snakes. there will be no harm on God's holy mountain. Before man's sin - it would appear that is how things were.. i'm not saying there was no death - but I don't think there was animal predation. likewise there was no need for animal sacrifice before sin.
Principalities who deceiveth and murderers exalted themselves above sitteth in high places unseen nor seen! Shook! Who is that little child born "i" 12-29-1976 Signature! "LOVE" with the "NEW DAY"?
It is so nice to see an actual discussion about these topics, and not a debate.
These scholars treat this subject carefully and respectfully. I loved Marcus’ comment, “Young earth creationists and old earth creationists here, we are the cousins at the family gathering. We see each other a lot. And that’s one of the reasons why sometimes we’ve argued so hard with one another. It is because we’re in the same family. … Fuz and I would be probably perfectly comfortable being in the same denomination, in the same chapel, taking communion together.”
What a great dialog! I so appreciated the respectful tone and actual discussion between the two parties. This is a model of how to have these conversations in a Christlike way
Looking forward to watching this! Drs. Fuz Rana and Marcus Ross are always very professional in their exchanges.
This is a great format with great guests. Keep them coming!
Interesting indeed. I think both speaker had points which help us who is not so educated as them. Thanks.
This was probably the most civil debate on the topic I've seen, which is wonderful. However, if I were a YEC, after watching this I still would be. I feel like Marcus provided more examples of evidence to support his claims (even though they've been refuted by RTB in other videos). To be fair, Fuz often wasn't afforded the opportunity to counter his claims, or at least not enough time to do it well.
Hi Zyned, for everything Marcus Ross says, we should assume there is serious scholarship to back it up. You say that his arguments have been refuted by RTB in videos. However, at his level, these arguments are discussed in scientific papers. Scientific literature stands to RUclips videos as chess stands to tic-tac-toe. Anyway, I agree with you that this was a very civil discussion; a pleasure to watch!
Thank you for attending unto our own! Together!
The Genesis texts leave a lot of gray area, out of which interpreters across the centuries have elucidated narratives which they claim are the only way to read those texts.
In the end, the Lord has given us what is sufficient for us. Have faith in Him, and don't sweat the details. He knows what he did, and we don't know everything.
in actuality that's why I tend to believe more in an old earth creation now... simply because God doesn't rush things... He is infinite and didn't need to rush. I feel it was broken down for us simply so our finite minds could understand.
HE took creation apart and HE put back together!
Time Indeed came with increased in knowledge in front of HIM!
I still don't understand why a lion taking down a zebra is too barbaric to be part of God's good creation, but 1 million animals being killed every day just for American consumption, often after living short, torturous lives, is part of living a Godly lifestyle, one that God gives permission for, and blesses.
God never wanted sin and death to be a part of His creation. Soon He will fix it once and for all!
So 'Murca invented MEAT? Why didn't my commie teachers teach me THAT in school? USA! USA!
@@hunterhestekin7420 Christians were sure that God would fix the world "soon" or that Jesus would come back "soon" for the last 2000 years. In pretty much every generation since Jesus died many christians thought they're living in the end times but it's 2000 years later an still nothing happened, so I don't think it will happen soon now either.
sacrifice came after man's sin... and God didn't tell man they could eat meat until after the Flood.
God judged animals along with man as a result of man's sin. He killed an animal to clothe Adam and Eve after the fall. He wiped out animals during the flood. And he asked Israel to sacrifice animals as atonement. BUT animal death was not part of God's original creation. Genesis says God gave plants as food for animals. Animal death is not morally evil, but it is evil in a sense that it is an ugly result of the fall. Remember, God did not create thorns in the original creation, but they grew after the Fall. So, even though thorns and predation are not moral evils, they are also not part of an original "very good" creation. Only after the Fall did God punish all creation, including death of man and animals.
15:00 The differences between young earth and old earth seem pretty significant to me. Both sides look at the same evidence, and come to VERY different conclusions. Now, the Trinity? That's just how you read the Bible, right?
What I'm getting at, is, in 2024, these doctrines and theological arguments don't mean a whole lot to most people today, particularly in the USA. In saying that, I wish you guys all the best.
How "PARTICULARLY in the USA"? There are probably as many evangelical conservative Christians in the US as in any continent other than North America. Weren't you aware of that? Surely there is a LOT more apathy about the finer points of evangelical Christian exegesis abroad than here?
They R both Trinitarians : your point is incoherent.
Shared "i" Am come forth!
Yes, HE came unto all the wise and Scribes to adopt sons and daughters!
What is important is that Jesus Christ lives in our hearts. Some believe in taking 100% of the bible literal. Other believe Science is also a revelation from God and a few things in the Bible are not to be taken as literally as people always have. For example the days of creation. Is it 7 24 hour days or was it meant to be 7 very long periods of time. If so them the Bible matches up perfectly with science. So science-minded people can also believe in our great creator
It's not even just taking the Bible literally, it's taking one's English translation and interpretation of that 100% literally. You can take the Bible literally and still have a day-age interpretation of the Genesis days of creation. The Hebrew language allows for that, because Hebrew is not English. And even in English, day can have more than one meaning "back in my day...", as an example.
@@nsnowman yes and early in Genesis it refers to the genealogy of the creation as "their day".
Have we found any fossils of cats, canines or other carnivores or omnivores that have anatomies consistent with an herbivorous diet? Most people don't realize that the differences between herbivores and the rest are significant and frankly insurmountable.
The 2 EDGES SWORD came our SON of MAN!
In front of all HIS shared "i" Am!
I still don't understand why young earth creationists aren't at least vegetarians, since they believe killing animals is part of the fall due to sin.
I don't see what animal death has to do with the discussion at all. Why would the fact of death somehow impugn God's character? It is obvious that in a physical world, the cycle of birth, life and death is essential to maintaining a healthy biome... (If there were no death there could not be birth, as the weight of numbers of creatures would soon swamp the biome if there were). Perhaps the Garden of Eden was some kind of special creation embedded in the natural world but not operating by the same rules, but rather the rules of the new earth, where scripture says there will be no death, and only when Adam and Eve were forced to leave the Garden were they confronted with the reality of physical death? Interesting thought...🤔
It mainly depends on how you think how God created the universe, did he sit down and create each animal individually and actively decided "I'm going to create a murderous shark now that kills other fish"? Then I would say it's a character flaw to create that, but I don't think that's what happened, I think it's more that God just caused the big bang in the beginning and then just let everything develop on its own and then eventually also created humans on earth personally, but I think for all other animals the concept of gradual evolution (initially set in motion by god by creating the first spark of life) is more likely than imagining how the creator or the entire universe would waste time with creating every single type of animal on earth (and most likely on other planets with life on it) one by one.
@@lp4514 I would say it depends more on whether you view death as intrinsically evil or not. Sharks aren't murderous, they kill only for food, and totally without enmity. As do all carnivores (including man). I see nothing evil, or even wrong in that, it's just the way it is. God has made allowance for this also, in the fact that the most predated species produce more offspring than the predators, and display other behaviors such as herding and shoaling which ensure that primarily the weak, elderly or sickly are predated.
PS: Only man, who kills his neighbor without cause and with enmity can justly be defined as "murderous".
(Chimps possibly as well...)
@@gordonicus4637 Death itself may not be evil but there's still a difference between a universe where every living being eventually dies but only from old age (which with the additional reduction of the reproduction rate would be enough to prevent overpopulation of our ecosystem) and our world where most living beings also constantly have to worry about being ripped apart and eaten alive.
Yes it's not evil because evil is a moral concept that requires an intellect that's advanced enough to understand the concepts of good and evil and animals don't have that but that still doesn't mean that killing another living being is objectively good or perhaps a better way to phrase it, it may not be evil but it certainly isn't the ideal way I would imagine a god would create a perfect universe where animals wouldn't have to constantly fear for their life because there could be a predator around every corner that wants to consume them.
I'm aware that that's a philosophical question so I'm not saying I'm not objectively right and you are wrong, it's just my opinion that a benevolent creator wouldn't purposely invent such a system. I'm leaning more towards the buddhist philosophy (which is almost identical to what Jesus taught) that all live is sacred and therefore in a perfect world created by a perfect god there would be no killing, which is why my opinion is that god didn't purposely create that system, it just developed on its own.
Creation will say, who's my author?
Exalted themselves above sitteth in high places! Is like a little child born "i" Am will come to Tree! All deceiver and murderers exalted themselves above don't belongs sitteth! Will shake the TREE! Watch these principalities who deceiveth fall like lightning in front!
The Wise and Scribes will say, who's child is HE?
Students, what is a book? Lord, obviously, there's an author? Students will say, LORD many books came with many authors! Indeed! Creation will say, "Who's my Author? Keep watch!
Wait, how can something that is cursed still be good?
Which ye prefer? Who am I? Nor thy shared "i" Am in front?
Many capital I am who am I?
Yet, who among ye all? Can interpret therein!
And all HE adopted Sons and Daughters from thee all!
I tend to agree more with the old earth creationists... but I disagree with animal predation before the fall. in the prophets when God's kingdom comes lions will not eat lambs and wolves will not eat sheep.... children will be able to play with poisonous snakes. there will be no harm on God's holy mountain. Before man's sin - it would appear that is how things were.. i'm not saying there was no death - but I don't think there was animal predation. likewise there was no need for animal sacrifice before sin.
What is knowledge nor wisdom? Come all capital I in front!
Who's that? HIS ANGELS and shared "i" Am Hosts Meeks will say, How's HIS TIME sent forth just for thee?
Don't ye all know capital I need not increase to learn?
Principalities who deceiveth and murderers exalted themselves above sitteth in high places unseen nor seen! Shook! Who is that little child born "i" 12-29-1976 Signature! "LOVE" with the "NEW DAY"?