Here is some practical advice: if you want better music, ad orientem, altar rails: PRAY FOR IT. Yes, God answers these prayers. It happened at my parish.
Pray for it, but also pay for it. We have almost zero musicians who dedicate their careers to the Church. Even renowned Gregorian ensembles are secular or just university projects without tied to Rome. It's hard (and pricey) to even find organ masters or secular professionals and students who are truly learned in the Gregorian or polyphony/ars antiqua tradition. With the passing of the old patronage system and the whole secularization and separation of the Church and States, we kinda lost our will and cultural pungency and the rest is history. It's nice that everyone wants Gregorian or to listen to a des Pres in a high mass, but who are we kidding? Things will not fall from the sky without a huge collective endeavor. But things are moving and I am truly hopeful to see the Vii to its fullness. For an art like Gregorian Chant that was almost lost, had to be puzzled out by the Solesmes monks and now we have monthly releases of albums with incredible reconstructions and interpretations, we can only have hope again and do our parts too. Have a child or two that have that music intuition? Why not try to show him the Church's legacy? Hope it helps!
I agree! I did midnight adoration to 3am every Friday for years and prayed for an altar rail. We got it! Ended up switching to the TLM but I’m glad it’s there.
Yes, pray for it! But also you can ask your local priest for certain things, like moving the tabernacle front and center and having kneelers available for communion. I’ve seen it implemented in local parishes from suggestion.
Pray! AND WORK. Seek out priests who want ROTR masses and SUPPORT THEM. Your local parish priest probably likes the status quo so you will need to find someone open to doing things a reverent way
Catholic Journalist MAURICIO PEREZ (1:49:50) has already been doing that some years a go and still doin it. (Master class is his conference of 5 hours) it's magnificent
It is my experience in my parish that older parishioners (60 and older) are primarily the ones who keep calling for "new"/popular music (and video screens!), because they think it will attract the young people. Ironically, the young people are the ones who crave the "old time" (Gregorian/traditional organ) music and more traditional celebration and involvement in the Mass. I think the oldsters (I'm 56, so I can cast dispersion) only knew the folk-singing, tambourine-playing hippie version of Mass from the '70's, and they think the "youngsters" of today also "need" the current cultural influence, instead of relying on the timeless mystery and Grace of the Holy Spirit to make the connection.
Absolutely right. In my parish we are doing a massive capital campaign which I am not donating to number one because we have nothing left after bills right now but number two because I strongly disagree what they are doing with the money. They are buying a property so that they can house the priest off site and turn the rectory into offices. NO, if you need more offices at all (which is questionable with remote work), then buy OFFICE SPACE off site so that the priest will be housed AT THE PARISH. They are spending millions on things that are harmful like that and then complain the young people aren’t donating the pennies they have to support it. In my commentary to the online survey I responded to suggested projects not to do those and instead install altar rails
I’m 59 and have been seeking traditional Mass, Ad Orientum, Chant, Incense, Communion in tongue, for over 30 years!!! Realizing its probably not going your way happen in my lifetime. But praying and fasting for our children and grandchildren…
I reverted from orthodoxy to catholicism because I live 30 min away from a FSSP parish. And 15 minutes from an orthodox catholic parish. So I can go to two lively parish full of faith and traditional wholesome faith and practice. The FSSP parish is full at every one of four masses on sunday. I am truly blessed! Glory to God!
I consider myself traditional, and I am of the opinion that criticism of Vatican II is largely anti-traditionalist. The Church has the power to call these councils and we as obedient members should follow their lead. We should operate from the assumption that our interpretation is uncharitable or wrong, not that our leaders have done wrong. That is, imo, the traditional approach. And as I’ve dug into this issue, that opinion has only been affirmed
@@RosaIbanez-m3y Vatican I calls for "true hierarchical obedience" that is qualified according to St. Thomas Aquinas' teaching on 3 types of obedience, perfect, true and false obedience. Confusion actually comes from when people obey indiscriminately. And this is how we have come to where we are now with a Pope that elevates James Martin and throws Cardinal Burke out into the outer darkness.
There is nothing "traditional' about slavish and indiscriminate servile obedience. Lateran IV called for Jews to be forced to wear identifying dress and not to be seen in public during the Triduum and other holy days. The Catholics of the day simply ignored the decrees of Lateran IV. When Pope Stephen VI, had the corpse of Pope Formosus dug up, put on trial with a deacon assigned to provide answers for the corpse, the deacon was fully in his moral rights to defy the order. Pope Stephen legally declared Formosus to have been an invalid Pope and declared all of his ordinations invalid. This was overturned and then ratified, and overturned again through a few cycles by subsequent Popes. St. Thomas Aquinas teaches a 3 fold obedience, perfect, true and false obedience. You are morally obligated to oppose being falsely obedient. Pope Benedict as Joseph Ratzinger stated in Principles of Theology that some councils had been a complete waste of time. He thought time would tell, and he hoped that Vatican II wouldn't be one of those, but it's likely and not a heresy to believe it was just that.
@@gerry30 Pope Francis has done nothing to deserve disobedience. I understand discernment and he has done nothing to deserve disobedience. St Thomas distinguishes three levels of obedience: “one, sufficient for salvation, and consisting in obeying when one is bound to obey; secondly, perfect obedience, which obeys in all things lawful; thirdly, indiscreet obedience, which obeys even in matters unlawful”. The last of these is thus not an act of virtue but falls short of the good that motivates all virtuous acts. Pope Francis has done nothing unlawful and has asked nothing unlawful from us Catholics.
@@RosaIbanez-m3y Says you. Francis is overtly NOT confirming the brethren and he is deliberately giving stones instead of bread. His scandals are growing epic in scale and number. From his early "beach ball" on the altar scandals to his Pachamama offenses against the First Commandment. If St. Peter was resisted to his face as described in the infallible testimony of St. Paul for merely being intimidated by Jews, how much more of a rebuke and resistance is Francis deserving of?
I’m a staunch traditionalist, a convert from evangelical Protestantism, and I accept Vatican II in its entirety. It just saddens me that it was so sensationalized and poorly implemented. What Vatican II was and what was put in place are two different things.
Until recently, no ordinary Catholic was able to read Vatican II. It's now a thick paperback almost as long as the Catechism. So liberal Catholics beat us over the head with their interpretations/false reports of Vatican II. They just recently quit, but they've had decades to work their agenda using Vatican II as cover. This is how I remember it, and I was born in 1959.
What they said about music in the liturgy around 1:19:00 and 1:32:30 was so spot on. If you read Sacrosanctum Concilium, it very clearly states that SACRED music shall have pride of place, and Gregorian Chant, polyphony, and the ORGAN are the most appropriate methods to use for music in the liturgy. I'm a cantor at my parish and I've been trying to communicate this to the music director.
The document is riddled with exceptions. Chris Ferarra in his article "Sacrosanctum Concilium: A Lawyer examines the loopholes" demonstrates that every percieved "abuse" has a loophole in the council document allowing for it. eg. "In 1964, only a year after SC was enacted, Pope Paul VI issued his motu proprio entitled Sacram Liturgiam. Article 9 of Sacram Liturgiam authorized all national hierarchies to approve vernacular translations of the Mass, subject only to Rome's ex post facto approval, which was given in every case. So much for the "use of Latin" in the Roman liturgy. The "particular law" exception swallowed up this much-vaunted "conservative" norm within a year, as Bugnini clearly knew it would. Anyone who says that Article 36 of SC has been "violated" and the Council "disobeyed" by reason of the all-vernacular new liturgy has never read SC in its entirety, or is pretending that two Popes and nearly the entire hierarchy have not already shown us that SC authorizes (even if it does not mandate) Mass entirely in the vernacular. Arts. 114-116 - "[114] . . . The treasury of sacred music is to be preserved and cultivated with great care." [Art. 116] - ". . . other things being equal [Gregorian chant] should be given pride of place in liturgical services . . ." The phrase "other things being equal" partially undermines the phrase "pride of place," and the remaining provisions of SC (discussed below) complete the undermining by vesting "territorial ecclesiastical authority" with total control over the adaptation of church music to "local needs," along with the rest of the liturgy." salbert.tripod.com/SClel.htm
@@bthemedia Yes, because I admit my areas of study. I am a dogmatic and fundamental (systematic) theologian. I was up front about that, so people know that when I talk about the history of rites, it is not my area of expertise. I can only give my opinion, or point out differendes between Sacrosanctum Concilium and the liturgy as you see it today.
@@decluesviews2740 This interview could not be a more clear sign of Vatican II. You were a Catholic priest and gave my sister her First Holy Communion in the Charlotte Diocese. What a mess! Stop defending the conciliar church and the Novus Ordo Mass. The Second Vatican Council opened the door to Satan. Paul VI even admitted that the "Smoke of Satan" has entered the Church. You are a failed fruit of the Conciliar Church. Stop turning a blind eye to the Crisis in the Church! #Vatican II #ApeChurch #SynodalChurch #NovusOrdo #NewReligion
I think Dr. DeClue is clueless. I lived through Vatican II and its aftermath. It has DESTROYED the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has morphed into a different organization altogether: The Vatican II Sect. That's why I moved over to Eastern Orthodoxy. Thank Heaven that in Orthodoxy I don't have to worry about the next foot to drop! Each time when one of the "mainstream" bishops, cardinals or the pope speaks in their milquetoast and liberal ways, my reasons to leave are strongly re-enforced. Vatican II Sect, RIP.
What do you mean someday your soul is important too Jesus now not someday.i shall pray the Rosary for you please do it as soon as possibleGod Bless you.
There's a legend about the martiys under Dioclecian. One of those was Saint Expeditus. When he thought about become a Christian, the Devil took the form of a crow. When the crow cawed it sounded like the latin word "cras" (it mean tomorrow). Then, moved by the Holy Ghost Expeditus stamped on the bird and killed it, declaring, "Hodie" (today, now).
The liturgy discussion on this is really quite basic, to be frank. There is an interim Missal of 1965 which is essentially the Traditional Mass with certain segments in the vernacular. but afterwards the Consilium is established which radically looks at the liturgy and takes into pieces then re-stitches it back together according to theories about how the early church liturgy was, which recent scholarship has refuted. Eg the reason the "send your holy spirit upon them like the dewfall" is present is because they thought the Roman Rite simply lost its epiclesis (invocation of the Holy Spirit) somewhere along the way, because Eastern liturgies have one. But there is no textual evidence of this in the history of the Rite. Similarly, new Eucharistic Prayers where added because Eastern Rites have multiple where the Roman Rite has only one, the only one it has ever had: the Roman Canon. This is the process by which the NOM is made, and it is a fundamental rupture with the liturgical tradition. The liturgical conversation more generally has to acknowledge this, or else we aren't going to get anywhere. The NOM is designed to be sequential and entirely audible because its creators thought comprehension of the liturgy by the people (in the sense of seeing and hearing everything) was fundamental to true participation. (it's also why versus populum and vernacular are universal now, as the established wisdom of the bishops who implement it). This is dubious at best. The entire liturgical project, from principles to implementation, is rife with problems, and I'm tired of all the talking heads pretending is only a matter of music being in poor taste. It goes a lot deeper than that. Versus Populum and vernacular liturgy were inaugurated by Pope Paul VI in 1965. see rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2019/04/a-half-century-of-novelty-revisiting.html
My devout catholic father left Catholic boarding school in 1960 notes that he got through 6 years of Catholic education with little idea of the catechism Lack of formation is definitely not a post-V2 phenomena. There has never been a better time for formation that now. This is and will be a golden age for Catholicism. It’s genuinely exciting
why do I feel the same way! it’s so exciting to be a catholic this year. I feel like we have gone from sleeping to know starting to educate and fight back from all lies that was spread about us. ❤️❤️
@@j897xce Pints is helpful along the way, but caution is needed brother. It leads astray at critical turns. Let Pints lead you to the Apostolic Church, but jump instead to long held authors, traditions and the words of the holy Father, Pope Francis. Be alert to schism and apostasy
That's the bit that was complete garbage! I loved the way Fradd just sat there staring at him, clearly thinking "what the crap are you talking about bro?!"
@@davidmcpike8359 I think we agree on far more than our two comments suggest… of course I believe the hierarchy is currently off the rails, and if there’s going to be a schism of any sort happening- it will be when the current leaders sway so far liberal that they effectively become the schismatics, while many of the lay faithful stay firmly rooted in the tradition of the Holy Church of the last 2000 yrs!
@@davidmcpike8359 might sound a little weird/creepy, but I think I know far more about you than you know about me… Just outside of a big city in Alberta area by any chance?
@@davidmcpike8359 I’m friends of one of your brother in-laws who’s a fishing guide… my wife and I met through the Catholic community, and had Rosary nights at JN’s house… but please forgive me, because I’m no theologian.
@@Prohortico Who knows? I don't foresee schism, I think that's just a cheap rhetorical attack: "Don't like my heresy? Then you're a schismatic!" Yeah, right. Nice argument. The silent apostasy in the Church is longstanding; it will be interesting to see what happens if the volume keeps getting turned up.
Without being diesrespectful, but how can one not realise that none of these points critisised in the preconciliar council actually has gotten any better? I mean yes maybe many masses were fast and many people went there more because of cultural reasons, but is that worse than having less than 5% (in my country) of catholics even attending mass, and even if you attend there is a possibility of severe sacrilege in your mass (like women preaching or gay blessings etc...)? Sure the council is not the root of these problems, but it did not succeed in figthing any of these problems and it very much seems like, at least its implementation actually made it worse in some cases.
I appreciate the V2 documents with the exception of "Nostra Aetate". It's about the caliber of a High School level book report on comparative religions. I heard that it was co-written by a priest who was undercover h*m*sexual. He later left the faith
1:59:38 Very well said!!! Wow!!!! What DeClue says right there speaks to my heart... Sometimes, I feel like some people might see me as a "lukewarm" because I try to have hope in the actual state of THE CHURCH. I don't want to throw it to the garbage... I choose to be respectful and obedient. That does not mean to agree with everything. But sometimes I feel that the anger is over the board...
Can we not keep the "politics" out of this discussion? This guest, from past encounters, had one unpleasant opinion, it was his, it was right, and the other person was denigrated and/or ridiculed. He was a "real" doctor and categorized others as not, most subjectively.
Like a lot of “Vatican II questions answered” content, I found this to be underwhelming. I think Matt threw a lot of pulled a lot of punches with his questions. 1. Why was the council necessary? Yes the world changed but what exactly was the issue? If I’m not mistaken, Ecumenical councils are set to address a particular problem. 2. Dr. DeClue gave a lot of “the council wasn’t implemented correct” without an explanation of WHY it wasn’t. 3. If the council implementation was taken so far out of left field, why do we have Pope JPII kissing the Quran, widespread liturgical abuse, a second iconoclasm, and widespread teaching of false ecumenism etc. post Vatican II 4. Why does it seem the church hierarchy is so against anything traditional while giving a pass/promoting open heretics who want change the faith? I’m not saying these questions don’t have answers. But when you claim you’re going to “Answer Vatican II questions” I expected more than the cookie cutter “well technically that wasn’t supposed to happen” answers we always get. The best Dr. DeClue could do many times when given the slightest pushback was “I don’t know, I’m not an expert”, “trads have a poor prayer life”, and “the priests used to say the mass really fast so we needed a council”. Give me a break.
When I say I don’t know why, I mean that I don’t know why there wasn’t proper oversight. I give some possible reasons, but it doesn’t change the fact that the Council wasn’t implemented properly, which is my point. Asking me why other people didn’t do their job is somewhat irrelevant. The fact that they didn’t is what’s important. And I even say that we have to admit that trads have legitimate complaints that no one is addressing and that that’s bad.
@@decluesviews2740 I very much appreciate your reply and Happy Thanksgiving. I think the heart of Trads concerns is that the lack of proper oversight and implementation seems deliberate. I really think the way forward is for the Church at large to stop demonizing Trads and stop the gaslighting. (I think of Michael Lofton) and for Trads to call out the extremists in there own tribe (I think Brian Holdsworth). Again, I appreciate you being a voice in the conversation even if we might not 100% agree. Its a good reminder we're all on the same team.
@@decluesviews2740 "Why there wasn't proper oversight"? Maybe because it was deliberate. Such a sudden and universal change could not have occurred without the approval of the Pope and bishops. A universal effect requires a universal cause and Rome is the only universal cause we have in the Church.
As a convert, I hate the music. Hymns with organ music feel so Protestant to me, it’s cringe. I would so love to hear Gregorian chant. It will never happen in my rural novus ordo Parrish. Although the people are sweet and loving, it would be foreign to them.
I grew up singing church hymns with the organ, it is the most beautiful music I grew up with. I still associate it with prayers and contemplation. I can’t understand the belting, drums and cymbals…. Just too much noise.
Excellent interview. I really appreciate the humility of Dr. Richard - he prefers to explain why he can't give a straight answer instead of pushing something confidently. And I like his line of clearing the understanding of words and sources before making a statement, with a charitable approach towards these who have good intentions even if they mix up some terms.
I absolutely loved this episode. Dr. DeClue was fantastic. I hadn’t heard of him before. There’s so much goodness in here, and many many things I needed to hear personally. Thank you for this Matt & everyone at PWA!
Coming into communion with the Church in January. If I did not have the context that the Church could be more than what I saw at my geographically local parish, I am not confident I would be entering the Church, or at least not in the time or with the joyful heart that I am. The tradition and its beauty were a major evangelical tool in my story.
26:26 I took my father (who altar served before Vatican II) to a TLM. He was so confused seeing the servers choreographed movements throughout the Mass. Because in all his years he had only ever served low Masses.
There was an older deacon I met who had served served low Mass before Vatican 2. He observed the high Mass at my parish and thought that it was all novelty.
Apparently, The Jesuits popularized the Low Mass all over the world, as the de-facto Latin Mass in the centuries preceding the Second Vatican Council. I think it was the ease with which it could be celebrated with minimal altar servers and no music that influenced this shift. The majority of Catholic parishes did not have the resources or finances for a pipe organ or for all the pomp and decor to offer a High Mass. The issue became that the Low Mass was the only type of Mass offered at parishes. The Sunday Mass was a Low Mass. A Catholic rarely, if ever, got to witness a High Mass. That's probably the reason why there was such a huge disconnect among many Catholics who attended Mass. It felt like the priest's Mass, more so than the faithful joining their sacrifices to the priest's sacrifice as he was offering it to God in Persona Christi.
I grew up in NO and as a kid liked the happy clappy sappy mass, but now most seem like all the settings, actions, music of it work against belief in the sacrifice of the mass -- Christ the King giving himself to redeem us and feeding us himself in the Eucharist. Mostly NO masses are like penance to me. I attend our diocese low mass on Sundays and we have a sense that our priests greatly care for our souls by their actions and homilies, and we have a volunteer schola that chants so beautifully it brings tears of joy!
I love that now it's going for you and your family. I was introduced to the TLM in 2016. This was a Low Mass. And I was impressed from the get go. I didn't get to experience a High Mass until 2018 when I attended the Walk for Life with a couple of friends. Over the years I went on and off to the TLM Low Mass at my local diocesan chapel (not SSPX). This changed in 2022, when I started going more regularly. Attendance at the chapel skyrocketed in the time before I started attending regularly, that they had to move the TLM to the bigger Church. All thanks to the pandemic, I guess. A lot of Church's were shutting down. And the TLM was being offered outside, so many people from other localities started attending. Many never went back to their former parishes and stayed because of the TLM. I haven't gone back to my former parish either. I've found something beautiful with this community I'm now apart of.
2:08:54 Nailed it. I’ve had to unsubscribe from certain channels because of this tendency it creates in me. And I really struggle with knowing if I’m demonstrating righteous anger or pride. So difficult. Jesus didn’t hold back to offer scathing words to the Pharisees and yet we are also told to ‘learn from Me for I am meek and humble of heart’. We have brains to use to discern between good, evil, error etc and yet without love we are totally useless. Matt identifies with astute precision how our human hearts can be prone to malice even when condemning what we know is wrong in the Church or in public figures. I think Richard and Matt are spot on in that the answer is prayer. The more we are personally united to Christ the more our hearts are balanced. Pray for me!
I value Dr Declue’s comments on music- sometimes at a NO Mass I’m unsure as to whether I’m in junior school listening to country dancing style music or in church. It’s so distracting to have to listen to music more appropriate for a children’s TV show- why, oh why, is this tolerated!!
This is a VERY good interview. I don’t think the power of mental prayer can be underestimated, particularly if there is change or renewal we seek to achieve.
I think the beauty of the Latin Mass is the silence. IMHO it allows us to focus on God and the sacrifice of His Son. Sadly its pretty hard in some countries to find a TLM that is in communion with Rome. Hard but not impossible. As someone else said - Pray 🙏✝
Why is it that almost every pope since the council has been either canonized or beatified? Historically (at least the past 1000 years) papal canonizations have been rare.
If you have a link to it, that'd be interesting. I think that if one looks at a country like Mexico (though my experience has been pretty limited), he could get an idea of what Ratzinger was talking about. There is lots of fuss about baptisms, first communions, and confirmations, but when it comes to fidelity, a lot of people really don't seem to be devout. At least, that's my take from my limited perspective.
So why did it fail so miserably. We lost so many faithful and so many more in the pews are headed for hell - if that’s not because if the Vatican 2 changes - what caused it?
Vatican II is a whole ecumenical council. I don't know what the Holy Spirit willed from it, but I'm confident God would not allow it without incorporating it into his plan for Salvation.
Guitars and other string instruments are really beautiful when done fingerstyle. We can see it in reconstructed Mozarabic chants/liturgy. It would do wonders to the faith if we could exchange the usual rocky/pop ballads and melodies that we do for some of the old styles of playing the guitar
Try to listen to the "Lamentación de Jeremías. Lección I De jueves Santo. Cap 1, 1-14. Antifonario Mozárabe de Silos (Burgos). Archivo de la Abadía, ms 9, Breviario de San Rosendo de Celanova" by Eduardo Paniagua, its the one 8 minutes long. A beautiful example of string instruments in service.
@jkdesesseintes I'm of this mind as well. A steel-string acoustic, chugging out chords to folk songs, trying to get everyone to sing along is appropriate for a campfire, not at the foot of the Cross; but a nylon-stringed fingerstyled accompaniment can make for some beautiful, calming, and contemplative music.
That's not true that we didn't appreciate the Mass in the 50's. I loved it and I was a tiny child. I was 12 when then forced the NO on me, and I wept. I'm sorry to say I hated the new one. The way it was implemented was like a hostile takeover. I hated the altar rail being taken away, the gifts being brought up and the priest facing me, women on the Altar and the speed that it took place. The lack of devotion was the absolute worst. I died when they "dumped my Lord , shoved Him into the side Altar and took His place". I hope that doesn't offend anyone. I just knew what they threw out. I adore God. My life in the Church has been dictated by folks who have no idea what they're doing. And blaming us. No one asked me if I wanted it changed. I don't know anyone who was asked. I attend both Masses now mostly the NO with an incredibly devout priest. He makes it closer to the actual plan of Vatican II. But it's hard now because of the militant attitude of the NO women parishioners. They seem to take over in a militant way. The priests are afraid of them because they complain to the Bishop. God in my hand, no thank you. I want God in my soul!
support priests like yours and try to help and dialog with people who might be hostile. More faithful and younger families are moving to more Orthodox Traditional parishes. I have seen this first hand in both TLM parishes and both good solid Orthodox NO parishes. in my area most priest have reinstalled the rails, added back the rosary before mass, the leonined prays at the foot of the alter after mass, high chat, more Latin for Lent and Advent and even have reinstalled the high alter again. Keep praying and showing your happiness. People do not know and only understand what they were told by someone else. Some are also going back to ad orimentum with time, good education and understanding reasons.
We have no good reason to think that the Leaders of V2 had ill intentions when the council was called. And there were indeed legitimate doctrinal concerns that have arisen from society that needed a guiding voice for us laity to listen to. It's bold of us to think that we have to be consulted of any changes that are to be implemented. Lest we forget, the Catholic church is not a democracy. The changes in V2 were implemented with the goal of bettering society's participation in the church life. In many countries including from where I am, a lot of people stopped going to church because they did not understand what is going on in the mass. Those that continued to go prayed the rosary, or whatever prayer they knew to pray. I myself was born when NO was already the norm. But i made it a point to try and experience the TLM and I admit it was beautiful. And concerns about the musicality and such aside, is it not beautiful that in the new liturgy, the people actively now share the intentions of the mass because they understand what is going on?
1:44:47 I agree. I am a new Catholic (2023) and I just went to my first Traditional Latin Mass. It was so beautiful and I cannot wait to go back again! The Latin Mass was packed at 7:30 am on Sunday, compared the Novous Ordo that I had been going to for years on Saturday at 4 pm and Sunday at 12 pm. I was so surprised at how many people my age and younger were there! Absolutely wonderful! 😍
Thank you for this wonderful interview. I can attest to the point that Novus Ordo masses are improving, and young people (and seminarians/young priests) are a large part of it. Pray for the Church.
“If your temptation is to usurp the rights of the Church hierarchy and authority and become its judge…. Every schismatic thought that they were the faithful remnant, every single one thought they were right and Rome was wrong” -- good luck with that!!! Chose you this day whom you shall serve but as for me and my household we shall serve the Church!! Nice interview! Kudos Dr DeClue, very balanced perspective 😊
I appreciate the attempt at having a discussion on Vatican II but the title of the video was a little misleading. All the questions were not answered and I think this kind of discussion can't be just off the top of one's head. Let's address my main peeve. EENS. I don't know of any dogma of the Church more abused than EENS. He uses the Catechism of Pius X for his defense of Baptism of Desire. Seriously? If your going to have a theological discussion one doesn't use a catechism but official clear documents. The error of belonging to the "Soul of the Church" theory. This theory was condemned by Leo XIII in the encyclical "Satis Cognitum." Pope Leo XIII, {link} Satis Cognitum (# 3), June 29, 1896: “For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ - “Now you are the body of Christ” (I Cor. xii., 27)... From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error... It is assuredly impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the Body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.” again condemned later in 1928: Pope Pius XI, {link} Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “For since the mystical Body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.” Isn’t it interesting that Pope Leo XIII condemned the error in the so-called “St. Pius X Catechism” 6 years before the catechism was published. How could this be? Obviously this error was around a long time prior, and Pope Leo XIII felt it had reached a point of being a serious problem; necessitating it to be addressed. But as so often happens, people don’t listen, especially theologians. Notice also the fact that Leo XIII points out the union of the Soul of the Church and Her Body: “union of both elements is as absolutely necessary.” I also hold that the justification of Baptism is united to the Sacrament of Baptism and can not to be separated; like Christ’s soul is never to be separated again from his body after the Resurrection. So we see catechisms can be a good source for the Faith in general but may contain errors in some of its detailed points while remaining a general norm for learning the Faith. Cardinal Ratzinger, as head of the CDF, wrote about the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) that it is not a “Super Dogma,” nor correct in every detail, but should be accepted as a general whole- a norm : “The individual doctrine which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess. The weight of the Catechism itself lies in the whole.” [Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Cardinal Ratzinger, pp. 25-27]
I call your attention to an ebook on the topic of Baptism and EENS. It incorporates Vatican II into an orthodox understanding. drive.google.com/file/d/10tHZGk-nlIRNAzDF7c2pBh3y8y8yFJl6/view
Yeah, all the arguments for the new litturgy seems to be founded on utilitarianism (city of man) and not to be derived from the Christ, the apostles and the Holy Spirit.
"The virtue is the mean between two vices. You can fail to have virtue by excess or privation." Well said. I tell my son that every good has a sin on either side. And C.S. Lewis said it in The Screwtape Letters before either of us.
I struggled understanding this issue last year, and Jimmy Akin articles helped me so much find the authentic path to understanding what the Scripture, the Fathers, and the Magisterium all say.
Richard's request at the 1:45:18 mark is already done here in Nigeria. Well here in Lagos. Either First or Last Sunday of the month. Apart from the readings and sermon it is mostly Latin.
I'm a Millennial, I grew up with the NO, and my parents and I sang in an amazing choir at our church for many years. I love some of those songs. I love being able to sing along at Mass. I think Gregorian chant is also beautiful, but everyone's taste in music is different. Please don't assume no one likes the music being sung at NO Masses.
I don’t think that’s necessarily the argument, people just long for order because of this crazy world we live in. And if the Church teaches Gregorian chant has pride of place, we must submit with piety and respect.
I've been looking for the words to describe what Dr DeClue said in this interview. It seems to me (and I'm by no means the interpreter of all things) that what we see today in terms of liturgical "chaos" is really a laying open of what was interiorly the case before VII. I would love to see a return to the TLM in the Roman Church (lex orandi, lex credendi after all) but I also am willing to believe that the Novus Ordo is meant to teach us a lesson, to help us to become a truly Catholic people who could be entrusted with the TLM. I suppose only time will tell.
Everytime I go to Novus ordo mass in any local parish, I always fear that I might experience bad music with people not kneeling at sanctus or agnus dei and that fear always becomes reality. I got so tired of it, but thankfully I found reverent mass finder which helped me a lot. And the reason why American Catholic Church music is so bad is; 1. Usually people lead music grew up listening to bad music especially in 70s. 2. American public school or American school in general lacks in classical music education. Even Koreans learn Beethoven, Mozart, Bach in public school. If you go to any Korean parishes in the States, you will find music mostly agreeable and mass pretty reverent because they are culturally very conservative. In most of the Korean parishes women wear veil also.
As a Traditional Catholic I had a really hard time wanting to take this guy seriously after he called Trads lacking a prayer life and unbalanced. And his reference the faithful who attended mass in the 50s as basically zombies simply there waiting for it it be over, this is based on “talking to his mom, and people who lived at that time”. Really? Lukewarmness is always a threat, but the liturgy is not to be blamed for that. And the TLM in its most basic form has converted pagan nations. Missionaries often did not have the means for a solemn high mass for maybe decades.
That’s not an accurate portrayal of what I said. The pagans was from Ratzinger’s 1958 article. And I explicitly said this is not a criticism of the TLM itself, which I attend whenever possible. But it did mean there was a concern for how to get the laity to participate more intentionally in the prayers of the Mass. I also didn’t mean that NO trads have a good prayer life. But it is my guess that many do not. But I suspect that is also the case with many N.O. only attendees.
@@decluesviews2740 Absolutely only because of second Vatican council the faithful can understand what is the meaning of each prayers, it's significance. Realising the fact that almost all prayers are from the Bible. English speaking TLM supporters who don't know Latin is able to attend and understand portion of what's happening in TLM only because they have attended Novus Ordo Before... I support both Novus Ordo and TLM... But the intolerance shown by TLM supporters are Visible everywhere, also some Novus ordo people who thinks the Sanctuary is a place of Performance is also wrong...
There is a parish in the Archdiocese of Detroit (Old St. Mary's in Greektown) that does one novus ordo Mass per weekend in Latin, with a communion rail and choir. It's beautiful. Sadly, there hasn't been the revival that one would hope to see. The church is nearly empty every week. Once a month that Mass is tridentine instead, and there are always more people there. It's a very interesting thing!
Re Vatican II: "By their fruits ye will know them." The Church ALWAYS needs renewal, but I remember as a child my parents and their intellectual Catholic friends saying "They are asking for trouble." They sure got it.
i like how the Ecumenical Council of Vienne say muslims are Faithless and they pray to Mahomet, while V2 says they worship God, ill go to the grave denying v2
Rushing Mass happened, but it was not near the level of the abuse that takes place now. It's like justifying no fault divorce because some men were in an abusive relationship with their wife. What we have now in no way justifies what happened. Those issues should have been addressed with priests and laity, not done completely away with.
I would like to see more of the traditional catholic churches join the Pope, as others have. At the same time, when I hear some latin in the NO, it seems out of place to me. I use to attend both every Sunday and enjoyed both in different ways. I eventually went with NO and traditional masses under the Pope because they reach out to the people have done more community good, in my eyes. But, I would like to see more reverence and quiet moments and an optional kneeler for those inclined to kneel for communion. I kneel anyways, and I see some NO masses actually have provided them. But in general, I don't need to hear Latin because I don't speak it nor did Jesus or likely his Apostles.
The failure to take modern philosophy seriously with all its radicality is the problem. We are all saturated with modernity as our Mothers milk. All modern philosophy in its radicality was and remains an attack on human nature and by extension God's Incarnation in Christ. The only thing more radical and almost too good to be true is the Incarnation. If we come to recover our nature it means we must realize what has eclipsed it. We are all moderns.
Glad to see this collaboration. This is exactly what the Church needs. Glad that there are prominent voices standing up for the truth, supporting each other, and subsequently supporting the confused laity like myself. Keep standing up to the doomsday cultists.
1:17:52 Regarding the (unaudible) readings in latin: I heard one explanation, that nowadays we tend to look at the readings from our present perspective and treat them like a lesson, educational aspect, that we need to hear and understand them and make some conclusions, but in the old mass they were more like a hymn of praise to God. The first readings often repeated, they were usually from the Book of Wisdom and depicted some aspects of Wisdom (and thus of God). Because of that, like the prayers, they didn't need to be heard by the people. I don't fully agree with this explanation, I feel like it's more of a try to explain an error (neglecting the proclamation of the Word of God loud and clear enough) afterwards, but I also think that there is some truth in the idea that the readings are not only 'educational', but also have a value of prayer, God's Word becoming alive when it's proclaimed aloud in this exact moment and place.
To say that Vatican 2 was needed to more simply explain the Catholic faith in a way that the far more educated modern person can understand makes no sense. If we are smarter, why do we need a more simplified explaination of the faith?
The segment on Media Impact underscores the imperative that our Pope be as clear and unambiguous as possible. To my mind, that segment affirms the anxiety the faithful have when we hear statements that sound double-minded or ambiguous, because of the precedent for Progressive/academic interpretive rot. Ratzinger/BXVI spent a good portion of his life combating those forces, trying to clarify the points that those forces made a mess of.
For some of the liturgical questions that didn't get answered fully I highly recommend listening to Father Eric Gilbaugh. He was on Catholic Stuff You Should Know last year and talked specifically about the liturgical movement throughout the 20th century and how it came to a head in V2. He gives some more possible reasons why Versus Populum became so dominant: For one, it was thought that was direction early liturgies were done based on archeological discoveries. People thought it was a return to a more "authentic" orientation but, according to him, that has since been disproven after more study. Secondly, (and this come from Ratzinger) at St. Peter's basilica the Pope faces the congregation while doing mass with the altar separate from the wall. So people used mass at St. Peter's as a model for how to do mass with a free standing altar. The irony though is that the reason the Pope faces the people is in order to face East. St. Peter's couldn't be built with the nave behind the altar so they built it in front of it. Ratzinger says it was an architectural accident of history that mass at St. Peters is done facing the people - the true purpose was for the celebrant to face East. As for music, people may not realize how much of a tall order it was in the 70s to start doing sacred music. As they mentioned, the average parish had no music at mass. There likely weren't any existing choirs and the priests themselves probably didn't know how to chant well. So they had to learn something brand new. On top of that the musical books for the Mass (the Graduale Romanum and Simplex) were only published in Latin and largely ignored by translators. So when masses started to be done completely in the vernacular and hymns were permitted as a 4th option, people went down the path of least resistance and just chose to do hymns. To my knowledge there's no official liturgical translation in English for the Graduale Romanum or Simplex.
This has been one of the best talks on Pints of Aquinas that I've seen in a long time (and there are a lot of good ones). Thank you both so very much! So much wisdom in the advice given, so much gentleness and at the same time truthfulness in the addressing of what's going on in the Church today, beautiful. I see the guidance of the Holy Spirit in this. Thank you so much, brethren!
This episode was edifying for both brain and soul. Bravo. You know, I came back to the church two years ago after drifting in sin for 25 years and it was pretty humiliating to know what a worm I was and am. But this discussion has also helped me to see how important a shield humility is in this ridiculous world. Let me never forget it.
We have been to several parishes in the DFW area. The Church has fallen so far from any sort of tradition, it's distressful. We walked into a new parish this weekend. The priests were walking down the aisle while modern gospel music with guitars was playing. People were in jeans. Sneakers. Are we pandering to the Protestant majority? What is this? We've lost our identity.
Agreed for most the appearance or identity is enough but the operative action seems meaningless. Cultural Catholicism is a danger although I prefer it over secular culture it eats itself from the inside out becoming just another relativistic identity instead of the way the truth and the life.
I'd encourage you to keep looking (as sad as it is to "parish shop"). I thought for a long time that there weren't any traditional parishes in my city for the longest time after my conversion, but in the last year I've found at least half a dozen and keep hearing about more. In the DFW area there has to be at least a handful of decent parishes, probably more. Pray for the Church.
I’m really surprised! I lived in the DFW area for the better part of a year. While there are some wishy washy parishes, there are some very solid ones. I would highly recommend checking out Christ the King in Dallas or St. Thomas Beckett ordinariate in Fort Worth. There’s a lot of good stuff happening among the young Catholic population there.
Good interview. A bit perplexed on how Dr. Did not understand the importance of ad orientum and the sort of gloss over in the music still being gregorian etc. If it is allowed and the laity would love it, why the push to squash the TLM or those priests and bishops that lean more traditionally. Respect his take on a lot here. Definitely the extreme traditionalists would be better served by an approach through humility. Just feel that there is definitely an attack on the faith from within and that lines have always been drawn on church teachings that are being challenged. Very tough time. But holy mother church will prevail. God bless.
I live in a protestant country where Catholics are about 4% of the population or roughly 14k people. I live in a small town, and the only Catholic church we have serves the novus ordo mass, so I'm happy with what I can get! I've asked our parish priest if there is any chance to have the TLM in my country, and he said the local bishop would not allow it.
Not a shame. Most of what people love about the TLM (chant, ad oriented, altar rail etc) is what the Novus Ordo is supposed to be doing anyway. In my experience if you do these things at your Novus Ordo it's even better than TLM.
@@nealkriesterer I think I agree with you on that more than I disagree with you. What bothers me the most is the inconsistency of the mass. We have a fairly "traditional" minded priest and he incorporates latin into the mass every now and then, but it's most of the time in the vernacular. As my options are limited I'll take whatever I can get, but if I could choose I think I'd rather go to the TLM, for consistency and reverence (not that novus ordo can't be reverent).
Yeah but the inconsistency comes from people not following the rules - check out Jubilate Deo by Paul IV in 1974, he makes it very clear that Latin chant is supposed to be the music of the mass. If people didn't follow the rules for TLM it would be just as inconsistent.
@@nealkriesterer That's where we agree. But until I see that in the novus ordo my preference remains with the TLM. That's not the only reason I would choose the TLM. Like was discussed in this interview, the reason for the V2 changes may have been valid or called for, but the results have been disastrous in some areas. I think getting together and discussing the position of the church in the ever changing modern world is a conversation that needs to be had, but it does not mean changing the church according to the world. The church is not of this world, it is above it and things don't need changing. I get the sense that a lot of the attitudes of "the spirit of V2" have been "how can we appeal to the hip kids?" But in reality you see young people longing for the unmoved rock, the traditional and the sacred. If I had a time machine and would go back to any point of Catholic history and walk into any Catholic church anywhere in the world and recognise at least 90% of what goes on in there, then it is how it should be. But if it were all foreign to me, and looked nothing like the church I know now, then how can we call it Catholic?
Okay, hilarious story, I wore some old painting sweats to the dealership as part of my strategy to get honest service and low price. 1.5 HOURS…not one salesman came. Finally I approached a sales person and asked to see the sales manager who showed up expecting a ‘scene’. I walked over to the truck I wanted and opened up my fanny pack (yep, dad outfit all the way) and showed him the cash I brought to pay in full. He became sooooo helpful. I had to tell him that while I was waiting I had the time to order the truck of my choice online and was having it delivered. I suggested he talk to his sales staff about expectations. I did go back and open a commercial fleet account for our farm later on but it seemed like the right thing to do to establish dominance first before actually doing business. (In a Christian way of course…lol)
Boom 💥 Love your story!! It’s like the male and more moral version of the scene in Pretty Woman when she’s shopping on Sunset Boulevard. Nice uplifting lesson for your car dealership 😊
Our main parish offers a semi-traditional mass once a week on Sundays. It is the most popular mass. There are multiple parking lots and they are beyond full each and every time. Shouldn't that be a sign that more needs to be offered? Beyond that ONE mass, it struggles with retention and engagement.
I entered my parish back in 2021 before they changed priest, and I loved it. It was very serious, and very reverent. and I was excited to enter that church, but then everything changed and the new pastor came in and new priest, and it became almost like a joke. It was very protestant like. I’ve gone to protestant churches, and I felt like I was in a protestant church I still received my sacraments, but I remember how uncomfortable I was when I was receiving them. They have masses where they play jazz. And it feels like almost disrespectful because they’re playing this loud jazz music while the bread and wine is turning to the body and blood of Christ and you can’t even pay attention because of music so loud. I found a new church though, but it’s kind of far and it’s in the city, but I went yesterday and I absolutely loved it. It was silent and you could just tell that the people that were there really believed in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I absolutely loved it and will be going back, but I understand the struggle of people who are frustrated with their parishes, it doesn’t even seem like I’m in a Catholic Church sometimes I have to sit there and make myself realize you’re in a Catholic church not a protestant church
Lumen Gentium was such a badly written and deceptive document (deliberately so according to Fr. Ralph Wiltgen) that Paul VI had to write the "Preliminary Explanatory Note" on Lumen Gentium reasserting the supremacy of the Pope and his independence from the body of bishops. The note was simply ignored and put in the appendix after the Pope insisted.
Who cares about Vatican II? Just let the traditionalists alone and we’ll let the JPII conservatives alone. It’s time to move on. Vatican II is getting idolized by this guy. It was a dud. Let’s move on.
Here is some practical advice: if you want better music, ad orientem, altar rails: PRAY FOR IT. Yes, God answers these prayers. It happened at my parish.
This is fair. And a lot of people don't wanna put the hard work into it either.
Pray for it, but also pay for it. We have almost zero musicians who dedicate their careers to the Church. Even renowned Gregorian ensembles are secular or just university projects without tied to Rome. It's hard (and pricey) to even find organ masters or secular professionals and students who are truly learned in the Gregorian or polyphony/ars antiqua tradition.
With the passing of the old patronage system and the whole secularization and separation of the Church and States, we kinda lost our will and cultural pungency and the rest is history. It's nice that everyone wants Gregorian or to listen to a des Pres in a high mass, but who are we kidding? Things will not fall from the sky without a huge collective endeavor.
But things are moving and I am truly hopeful to see the Vii to its fullness. For an art like Gregorian Chant that was almost lost, had to be puzzled out by the Solesmes monks and now we have monthly releases of albums with incredible reconstructions and interpretations, we can only have hope again and do our parts too. Have a child or two that have that music intuition? Why not try to show him the Church's legacy?
Hope it helps!
I agree! I did midnight adoration to 3am every Friday for years and prayed for an altar rail. We got it! Ended up switching to the TLM but I’m glad it’s there.
Yes, pray for it! But also you can ask your local priest for certain things, like moving the tabernacle front and center and having kneelers available for communion. I’ve seen it implemented in local parishes from suggestion.
Pray! AND WORK. Seek out priests who want ROTR masses and SUPPORT THEM. Your local parish priest probably likes the status quo so you will need to find someone open to doing things a reverent way
You should have Riverrun on here to talk about the liturgical reforms
Catholic Journalist MAURICIO PEREZ (1:49:50) has already been doing that some years a go and still doin it. (Master class is his conference of 5 hours) it's magnificent
So when Pope Francis says that Mary is not co-Redemtrix, is that something we are required to submit to in intellect and will?
It is my experience in my parish that older parishioners (60 and older) are primarily the ones who keep calling for "new"/popular music (and video screens!), because they think it will attract the young people. Ironically, the young people are the ones who crave the "old time" (Gregorian/traditional organ) music and more traditional celebration and involvement in the Mass. I think the oldsters (I'm 56, so I can cast dispersion) only knew the folk-singing, tambourine-playing hippie version of Mass from the '70's, and they think the "youngsters" of today also "need" the current cultural influence, instead of relying on the timeless mystery and Grace of the Holy Spirit to make the connection.
Absolutely right. In my parish we are doing a massive capital campaign which I am not donating to number one because we have nothing left after bills right now but number two because I strongly disagree what they are doing with the money. They are buying a property so that they can house the priest off site and turn the rectory into offices. NO, if you need more offices at all (which is questionable with remote work), then buy OFFICE SPACE off site so that the priest will be housed AT THE PARISH. They are spending millions on things that are harmful like that and then complain the young people aren’t donating the pennies they have to support it. In my commentary to the online survey I responded to suggested projects not to do those and instead install altar rails
I’m 59 and have been seeking traditional Mass, Ad Orientum, Chant, Incense, Communion in tongue, for over 30 years!!! Realizing its probably not going your way happen in my lifetime. But praying and fasting for our children and grandchildren…
I reverted from orthodoxy to catholicism because I live 30 min away from a FSSP parish. And 15 minutes from an orthodox catholic parish. So I can go to two lively parish full of faith and traditional wholesome faith and practice. The FSSP parish is full at every one of four masses on sunday. I am truly blessed! Glory to God!
Username does not check out in this case lol.
God bless the FSSP
What a huge blessing!!! SSPX and fssp are both equally 2 1/2 hours away from me…
They are full because they aren’t many of them.
They are full because they aren’t many of them.
I consider myself traditional, and I am of the opinion that criticism of Vatican II is largely anti-traditionalist. The Church has the power to call these councils and we as obedient members should follow their lead. We should operate from the assumption that our interpretation is uncharitable or wrong, not that our leaders have done wrong. That is, imo, the traditional approach. And as I’ve dug into this issue, that opinion has only been affirmed
Yes! Yes! and Yes! Confusion comes about when people start disobeying. Obedience is important and a hallmark of Saints.
@@RosaIbanez-m3y Vatican I calls for "true hierarchical obedience" that is qualified according to St. Thomas Aquinas' teaching on 3 types of obedience, perfect, true and false obedience. Confusion actually comes from when people obey indiscriminately. And this is how we have come to where we are now with a Pope that elevates James Martin and throws Cardinal Burke out into the outer darkness.
There is nothing "traditional' about slavish and indiscriminate servile obedience. Lateran IV called for Jews to be forced to wear identifying dress and not to be seen in public during the Triduum and other holy days. The Catholics of the day simply ignored the decrees of Lateran IV. When Pope Stephen VI, had the corpse of Pope Formosus dug up, put on trial with a deacon assigned to provide answers for the corpse, the deacon was fully in his moral rights to defy the order. Pope Stephen legally declared Formosus to have been an invalid Pope and declared all of his ordinations invalid. This was overturned and then ratified, and overturned again through a few cycles by subsequent Popes. St. Thomas Aquinas teaches a 3 fold obedience, perfect, true and false obedience. You are morally obligated to oppose being falsely obedient. Pope Benedict as Joseph Ratzinger stated in Principles of Theology that some councils had been a complete waste of time. He thought time would tell, and he hoped that Vatican II wouldn't be one of those, but it's likely and not a heresy to believe it was just that.
@@gerry30 Pope Francis has done nothing to deserve disobedience. I understand discernment and he has done nothing to deserve disobedience.
St Thomas distinguishes three levels of obedience: “one, sufficient for salvation, and consisting in obeying when one is bound to obey; secondly, perfect obedience, which obeys in all things lawful; thirdly, indiscreet obedience, which obeys even in matters unlawful”. The last of these is thus not an act of virtue but falls short of the good that motivates all virtuous acts.
Pope Francis has done nothing unlawful and has asked nothing unlawful from us Catholics.
@@RosaIbanez-m3y Says you. Francis is overtly NOT confirming the brethren and he is deliberately giving stones instead of bread. His scandals are growing epic in scale and number. From his early "beach ball" on the altar scandals to his Pachamama offenses against the First Commandment. If St. Peter was resisted to his face as described in the infallible testimony of St. Paul for merely being intimidated by Jews, how much more of a rebuke and resistance is Francis deserving of?
I’m a staunch traditionalist, a convert from evangelical Protestantism, and I accept Vatican II in its entirety. It just saddens me that it was so sensationalized and poorly implemented. What Vatican II was and what was put in place are two different things.
EXACTLY!
Until recently, no ordinary Catholic was able to read Vatican II. It's now a thick paperback almost as long as the Catechism. So liberal Catholics beat us over the head with their interpretations/false reports of Vatican II. They just recently quit, but they've had decades to work their agenda using Vatican II as cover. This is how I remember it, and I was born in 1959.
It was intentional and premaditated deception
@@vasjapremerl7270?
@@vasjapremerl7270no it wasn't. Stop committing the sin of slander.
What they said about music in the liturgy around 1:19:00 and 1:32:30 was so spot on. If you read Sacrosanctum Concilium, it very clearly states that SACRED music shall have pride of place, and Gregorian Chant, polyphony, and the ORGAN are the most appropriate methods to use for music in the liturgy. I'm a cantor at my parish and I've been trying to communicate this to the music director.
This is my biggest beef with my church and the others in my area. How these pastors fail to realize the truth of this is beyond me.
The document is riddled with exceptions. Chris Ferarra in his article "Sacrosanctum Concilium: A Lawyer examines the loopholes" demonstrates that every percieved "abuse" has a loophole in the council document allowing for it. eg. "In 1964, only a year after SC was enacted, Pope Paul VI issued his motu proprio entitled Sacram Liturgiam. Article 9 of Sacram Liturgiam authorized all national hierarchies to approve vernacular translations of the Mass, subject only to Rome's ex post facto approval, which was given in every case. So much for the "use of Latin" in the Roman liturgy. The "particular law" exception swallowed up this much-vaunted "conservative" norm within a year, as Bugnini clearly knew it would. Anyone who says that Article 36 of SC has been "violated" and the Council "disobeyed" by reason of the all-vernacular new liturgy has never read SC in its entirety, or is pretending that two Popes and nearly the entire hierarchy have not already shown us that SC authorizes (even if it does not mandate) Mass entirely in the vernacular.
Arts. 114-116 - "[114] . . . The treasury of sacred music is to be preserved and cultivated with great care." [Art. 116] - ". . . other things being equal [Gregorian chant] should be given pride of place in liturgical services . . ."
The phrase "other things being equal" partially undermines the phrase "pride of place," and the remaining provisions of SC (discussed below) complete the undermining by vesting "territorial ecclesiastical authority" with total control over the adaptation of church music to "local needs," along with the rest of the liturgy."
salbert.tripod.com/SClel.htm
What does it say in the Psalms though? Harp? Flute? Trumpet? Lyre? Why not praise God with these as the Psalms say?
You're right, but we can rightly ask why it went so bad and so bland in all places at exactly the same time.
@@gerry30😅
I am happy that these questions are being addressed in a more public and easily digestible way.
Matt asks a pre-post Vat II liturgy question.
Dr. Richard replies “I am not a liturgical scholar.”
@@bthemedia Yes, because I admit my areas of study. I am a dogmatic and fundamental (systematic) theologian. I was up front about that, so people know that when I talk about the history of rites, it is not my area of expertise. I can only give my opinion, or point out differendes between Sacrosanctum Concilium and the liturgy as you see it today.
@@decluesviews2740 This interview could not be a more clear sign of Vatican II. You were a Catholic priest and gave my sister her First Holy Communion in the Charlotte Diocese. What a mess! Stop defending the conciliar church and the Novus Ordo Mass. The Second Vatican Council opened the door to Satan. Paul VI even admitted that the "Smoke of Satan" has entered the Church. You are a failed fruit of the Conciliar Church. Stop turning a blind eye to the Crisis in the Church!
#Vatican II #ApeChurch #SynodalChurch #NovusOrdo #NewReligion
I think Dr. DeClue is clueless. I lived through Vatican II and its aftermath. It has DESTROYED the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has morphed into a different organization altogether: The Vatican II Sect. That's why I moved over to Eastern Orthodoxy. Thank Heaven that in Orthodoxy I don't have to worry about the next foot to drop! Each time when one of the "mainstream" bishops, cardinals or the pope speaks in their milquetoast and liberal ways, my reasons to leave are strongly re-enforced. Vatican II Sect, RIP.
@@bthemedia
An honest and humble reply! 😊
I hope to become a catholic someday
What do you mean someday your soul is important too Jesus now not someday.i shall pray the Rosary for you please do it as soon as possibleGod Bless you.
I hope so too! I have gotten so many graces from being within the Church!! I wish everyonoe could have those same graces and more, besides!!
🙏
There's a legend about the martiys under Dioclecian. One of those was Saint Expeditus. When he thought about become a Christian, the Devil took the form of a crow. When the crow cawed it sounded like the latin word "cras" (it mean tomorrow). Then, moved by the Holy Ghost Expeditus stamped on the bird and killed it, declaring, "Hodie" (today, now).
take ur time, find a right moment you are most comfortable with and go with it, took me 21 years, our Lord is always waiting for you to come home
The liturgy discussion on this is really quite basic, to be frank.
There is an interim Missal of 1965 which is essentially the Traditional Mass with certain segments in the vernacular. but afterwards the Consilium is established which radically looks at the liturgy and takes into pieces then re-stitches it back together according to theories about how the early church liturgy was, which recent scholarship has refuted. Eg the reason the "send your holy spirit upon them like the dewfall" is present is because they thought the Roman Rite simply lost its epiclesis (invocation of the Holy Spirit) somewhere along the way, because Eastern liturgies have one. But there is no textual evidence of this in the history of the Rite. Similarly, new Eucharistic Prayers where added because Eastern Rites have multiple where the Roman Rite has only one, the only one it has ever had: the Roman Canon. This is the process by which the NOM is made, and it is a fundamental rupture with the liturgical tradition. The liturgical conversation more generally has to acknowledge this, or else we aren't going to get anywhere.
The NOM is designed to be sequential and entirely audible because its creators thought comprehension of the liturgy by the people (in the sense of seeing and hearing everything) was fundamental to true participation. (it's also why versus populum and vernacular are universal now, as the established wisdom of the bishops who implement it). This is dubious at best. The entire liturgical project, from principles to implementation, is rife with problems, and I'm tired of all the talking heads pretending is only a matter of music being in poor taste. It goes a lot deeper than that.
Versus Populum and vernacular liturgy were inaugurated by Pope Paul VI in 1965. see rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2019/04/a-half-century-of-novelty-revisiting.html
My devout catholic father left Catholic boarding school in 1960 notes that he got through 6 years of Catholic education with little idea of the catechism
Lack of formation is definitely not a post-V2 phenomena.
There has never been a better time for formation that now. This is and will be a golden age for Catholicism. It’s genuinely exciting
why do I feel the same way! it’s so exciting to be a catholic this year. I feel like we have gone from sleeping to know starting to educate and fight back from all lies that was spread about us. ❤️❤️
It's working on myself and half a dozen friends and family members! Pints has done wonders for my family.
@@j897xce Pints is helpful along the way, but caution is needed brother. It leads astray at critical turns. Let Pints lead you to the Apostolic Church, but jump instead to long held authors, traditions and the words of the holy Father, Pope Francis. Be alert to schism and apostasy
1:56:55 - This part of the conversation… WOW! God have mercy on us! The entire interview was worth it just for these few minutes.
That's the bit that was complete garbage! I loved the way Fradd just sat there staring at him, clearly thinking "what the crap are you talking about bro?!"
@@davidmcpike8359 I think we agree on far more than our two comments suggest… of course I believe the hierarchy is currently off the rails, and if there’s going to be a schism of any sort happening- it will be when the current leaders sway so far liberal that they effectively become the schismatics, while many of the lay faithful stay firmly rooted in the tradition of the Holy Church of the last 2000 yrs!
@@davidmcpike8359 might sound a little weird/creepy, but I think I know far more about you than you know about me… Just outside of a big city in Alberta area by any chance?
@@davidmcpike8359 I’m friends of one of your brother in-laws who’s a fishing guide… my wife and I met through the Catholic community, and had Rosary nights at JN’s house… but please forgive me, because I’m no theologian.
@@Prohortico Who knows? I don't foresee schism, I think that's just a cheap rhetorical attack: "Don't like my heresy? Then you're a schismatic!" Yeah, right. Nice argument. The silent apostasy in the Church is longstanding; it will be interesting to see what happens if the volume keeps getting turned up.
Without being diesrespectful, but how can one not realise that none of these points critisised in the preconciliar council actually has gotten any better? I mean yes maybe many masses were fast and many people went there more because of cultural reasons, but is that worse than having less than 5% (in my country) of catholics even attending mass, and even if you attend there is a possibility of severe sacrilege in your mass (like women preaching or gay blessings etc...)?
Sure the council is not the root of these problems, but it did not succeed in figthing any of these problems and it very much seems like, at least its implementation actually made it worse in some cases.
Awesome discussion. More of these truths about the Council need to be emphasized. I was taken in by a lot of the common errors for years to my peril.
I appreciate the V2 documents with the exception of "Nostra Aetate". It's about the caliber of a High School level book report on comparative religions. I heard that it was co-written by a priest who was undercover h*m*sexual. He later left the faith
@@greyhoundmama2062
And we all know that gossip always turns out to be gospel!
1:59:38 Very well said!!! Wow!!!! What DeClue says right there speaks to my heart... Sometimes, I feel like some people might see me as a "lukewarm" because I try to have hope in the actual state of THE CHURCH. I don't want to throw it to the garbage... I choose to be respectful and obedient. That does not mean to agree with everything. But sometimes I feel that the anger is over the board...
More stuff like this please.
deClue is fantastic. He's one of the guys on RUclips that brought me out of the Rad (Bad) Trad rabbit hole I'd gone down. Looking forward to this one!
Can we not keep the "politics" out of this discussion? This guest, from past encounters, had one unpleasant opinion, it was his, it was right, and the other person was denigrated and/or ridiculed. He was a "real" doctor and categorized others as not, most subjectively.
#ordonariate gang
Like a lot of “Vatican II questions answered” content, I found this to be underwhelming. I think Matt threw a lot of pulled a lot of punches with his questions.
1. Why was the council necessary? Yes the world changed but what exactly was the issue? If I’m not mistaken, Ecumenical councils are set to address a particular problem.
2. Dr. DeClue gave a lot of “the council wasn’t implemented correct” without an explanation of WHY it wasn’t.
3. If the council implementation was taken so far out of left field, why do we have Pope JPII kissing the Quran, widespread liturgical abuse, a second iconoclasm, and widespread teaching of false ecumenism etc. post Vatican II
4. Why does it seem the church hierarchy is so against anything traditional while giving a pass/promoting open heretics who want change the faith?
I’m not saying these questions don’t have answers. But when you claim you’re going to “Answer Vatican II questions” I expected more than the cookie cutter “well technically that wasn’t supposed to happen” answers we always get.
The best Dr. DeClue could do many times when given the slightest pushback was “I don’t know, I’m not an expert”, “trads have a poor prayer life”, and “the priests used to say the mass really fast so we needed a council”.
Give me a break.
When I say I don’t know why, I mean that I don’t know why there wasn’t proper oversight. I give some possible reasons, but it doesn’t change the fact that the Council wasn’t implemented properly, which is my point. Asking me why other people didn’t do their job is somewhat irrelevant. The fact that they didn’t is what’s important. And I even say that we have to admit that trads have legitimate complaints that no one is addressing and that that’s bad.
@@decluesviews2740 I very much appreciate your reply and Happy Thanksgiving.
I think the heart of Trads concerns is that the lack of proper oversight and implementation seems deliberate.
I really think the way forward is for the Church at large to stop demonizing Trads and stop the gaslighting. (I think of Michael Lofton)
and for Trads to call out the extremists in there own tribe (I think Brian Holdsworth).
Again, I appreciate you being a voice in the conversation even if we might not 100% agree. Its a good reminder we're all on the same team.
@@decluesviews2740 "Why there wasn't proper oversight"? Maybe because it was deliberate. Such a sudden and universal change could not have occurred without the approval of the Pope and bishops. A universal effect requires a universal cause and Rome is the only universal cause we have in the Church.
This is gonna be so good. His call with Tim Gordon a few years ago remains my go-to for V2 doubts.
Do you know where I could find it?
@@mattmackinnan8557I think the video is called “Who is right about Vatican II” on Tim Gordon’s channel
@@Seethi_C Thank you so much! God bless!
As a convert, I hate the music. Hymns with organ music feel so Protestant to me, it’s cringe. I would so love to hear Gregorian chant. It will never happen in my rural novus ordo Parrish. Although the people are sweet and loving, it would be foreign to them.
I grew up singing church hymns with the organ, it is the most beautiful music I grew up with. I still associate it with prayers and contemplation. I can’t understand the belting, drums and cymbals…. Just too much noise.
Excellent interview. I really appreciate the humility of Dr. Richard - he prefers to explain why he can't give a straight answer instead of pushing something confidently. And I like his line of clearing the understanding of words and sources before making a statement, with a charitable approach towards these who have good intentions even if they mix up some terms.
FYI, DeClue has 6 part video lecture on V2 on the Word on Fire institute yt channel. There he takes a narrative approach to the coucil. Real worth it.
It's an absolute heater
Word on Fire is the Privileged Way to the Bank for their contributors.
Lots of pagans in the church today as well, btw… Ratzinger wasn’t wrong, nothing changed, though…
Exactly, so that argument is a weak defence for v2
@@andreas8185 what? Whats the defense of v2? It was just preparing for what we see today.
I know, I do t know how that justifies the absolute overhaul of the liturgy, the dumbing down of the faith, the destruction of church art, etc.
I absolutely loved this episode. Dr. DeClue was fantastic. I hadn’t heard of him before. There’s so much goodness in here, and many many things I needed to hear personally. Thank you for this Matt & everyone at PWA!
Coming into communion with the Church in January. If I did not have the context that the Church could be more than what I saw at my geographically local parish, I am not confident I would be entering the Church, or at least not in the time or with the joyful heart that I am. The tradition and its beauty were a major evangelical tool in my story.
Dr. DeClue is so delightful thanks for having him on the show!!!!! My favourite episode so far!
This was a great discussion and thank you for the clarity on Vatican 2!
26:26 I took my father (who altar served before Vatican II) to a TLM. He was so confused seeing the servers choreographed movements throughout the Mass. Because in all his years he had only ever served low Masses.
There was an older deacon I met who had served served low Mass before Vatican 2. He observed the high Mass at my parish and thought that it was all novelty.
Apparently, The Jesuits popularized the Low Mass all over the world, as the de-facto Latin Mass in the centuries preceding the Second Vatican Council. I think it was the ease with which it could be celebrated with minimal altar servers and no music that influenced this shift. The majority of Catholic parishes did not have the resources or finances for a pipe organ or for all the pomp and decor to offer a High Mass. The issue became that the Low Mass was the only type of Mass offered at parishes. The Sunday Mass was a Low Mass. A Catholic rarely, if ever, got to witness a High Mass. That's probably the reason why there was such a huge disconnect among many Catholics who attended Mass. It felt like the priest's Mass, more so than the faithful joining their sacrifices to the priest's sacrifice as he was offering it to God in Persona Christi.
I grew up in NO and as a kid liked the happy clappy sappy mass, but now most seem like all the settings, actions, music of it work against belief in the sacrifice of the mass -- Christ the King giving himself to redeem us and feeding us himself in the Eucharist. Mostly NO masses are like penance to me. I attend our diocese low mass on Sundays and we have a sense that our priests greatly care for our souls by their actions and homilies, and we have a volunteer schola that chants so beautifully it brings tears of joy!
I love that now it's going for you and your family. I was introduced to the TLM in 2016. This was a Low Mass. And I was impressed from the get go. I didn't get to experience a High Mass until 2018 when I attended the Walk for Life with a couple of friends. Over the years I went on and off to the TLM Low Mass at my local diocesan chapel (not SSPX). This changed in 2022, when I started going more regularly. Attendance at the chapel skyrocketed in the time before I started attending regularly, that they had to move the TLM to the bigger Church. All thanks to the pandemic, I guess. A lot of Church's were shutting down. And the TLM was being offered outside, so many people from other localities started attending. Many never went back to their former parishes and stayed because of the TLM. I haven't gone back to my former parish either. I've found something beautiful with this community I'm now apart of.
Richard DeClue is awesome. Loved his talks with Matthew Minerd
Hey, Dwong. Does he have any books? Blog? Or just his channel?
@@arthurbringel8610He’s a writer with Word on Fire. I googled if he had any books, The Mind of Pope Benedict XVI.
2:08:54 Nailed it. I’ve had to unsubscribe from certain channels because of this tendency it creates in me. And I really struggle with knowing if I’m demonstrating righteous anger or pride. So difficult. Jesus didn’t hold back to offer scathing words to the Pharisees and yet we are also told to ‘learn from Me for I am meek and humble of heart’.
We have brains to use to discern between good, evil, error etc and yet without love we are totally useless. Matt identifies with astute precision how our human hearts can be prone to malice even when condemning what we know is wrong in the Church or in public figures.
I think Richard and Matt are spot on in that the answer is prayer. The more we are personally united to Christ the more our hearts are balanced. Pray for me!
I value Dr Declue’s comments on music- sometimes at a NO Mass I’m unsure as to whether I’m in junior school listening to country dancing style music or in church. It’s so distracting to have to listen to music more appropriate for a children’s TV show- why, oh why, is this tolerated!!
This is a VERY good interview. I don’t think the power of mental prayer can be underestimated, particularly if there is change or renewal we seek to achieve.
Great interview - as always :) I like your way of talking. Ordinary conversation about extraordinary matters! Warm regards from Poland.
I think the beauty of the Latin Mass is the silence. IMHO it allows us to focus on God and the sacrifice of His Son. Sadly its pretty hard in some countries to find a TLM that is in communion with Rome. Hard but not impossible. As someone else said - Pray 🙏✝
Such a balanced view on V2!!!! DeClue is now on my new favorite theologian!!!
Dr deClue is great.
I always do my research before listening to any armchair theologian on social media
The liturgical problem now is almost entirely the last gasp of the baby boomers
I think that’s why the 70’s folk music is still being played. Not for musical merit but for nostalgia….
Baby Boomers' parents.
The documents on the Second Council may be right and just,but the practice did not bare good fruit. Perhaps we need a 3rd council to right the ship
God help us, we just need to repeal the last one, it has no more authority than it is given it’s a sham council
Best episode you had in a while, and you just had Ralph Martin on!
Dr. Declue is a real one. We are blessed by him
1:17:23 another W for the personal ordinariate, we LOVE to see it!
Why is it that almost every pope since the council has been either canonized or beatified? Historically (at least the past 1000 years) papal canonizations have been rare.
EXACTLY!! And, usually canonizations weren't even suggested for at least 100+ years after the person (& most of those who had know them) were dead!!
Almost as if they are desperate to legitimize all the fall out of Vatican 11
The fact thelogians used to be considered more mystical is interesting. I didn't know that. We need more of that honestly.
23:00 Archbishop Sheen's speech on the Antichrist in 1947 also mentions how pagan the Church is
If you have a link to it, that'd be interesting.
I think that if one looks at a country like Mexico (though my experience has been pretty limited), he could get an idea of what Ratzinger was talking about. There is lots of fuss about baptisms, first communions, and confirmations, but when it comes to fidelity, a lot of people really don't seem to be devout.
At least, that's my take from my limited perspective.
So why did it fail so miserably. We lost so many faithful and so many more in the pews are headed for hell - if that’s not because if the Vatican 2 changes - what caused it?
Yes! Your spiritual life and disposition should be our primary focus!
Vatican II is a whole ecumenical council. I don't know what the Holy Spirit willed from it, but I'm confident God would not allow it without incorporating it into his plan for Salvation.
Vatican II released no canons
@@jlouis4407 ????????
Guitars sounds as other string instruments are so beautiful. It should never be excluded from any Church liturgy.
Guitars and other string instruments are really beautiful when done fingerstyle. We can see it in reconstructed Mozarabic chants/liturgy. It would do wonders to the faith if we could exchange the usual rocky/pop ballads and melodies that we do for some of the old styles of playing the guitar
Try to listen to the "Lamentación de Jeremías. Lección I De jueves Santo. Cap 1, 1-14. Antifonario Mozárabe de Silos (Burgos). Archivo de la Abadía, ms 9, Breviario de San Rosendo de Celanova" by Eduardo Paniagua, its the one 8 minutes long. A beautiful example of string instruments in service.
I tried to post the link but I think RUclips blocked it
@jkdesesseintes I'm of this mind as well. A steel-string acoustic, chugging out chords to folk songs, trying to get everyone to sing along is appropriate for a campfire, not at the foot of the Cross; but a nylon-stringed fingerstyled accompaniment can make for some beautiful, calming, and contemplative music.
That's not true that we didn't appreciate the Mass in the 50's. I loved it and I was a tiny child. I was 12 when then forced the NO on me, and I wept. I'm sorry to say I hated the new one. The way it was implemented was like a hostile takeover. I hated the altar rail being taken away, the gifts being brought up and the priest facing me, women on the Altar and the speed that it took place. The lack of devotion was the absolute worst. I died when they "dumped my Lord , shoved Him into the side Altar and took His place". I hope that doesn't offend anyone. I just knew what they threw out. I adore God. My life in the Church has been dictated by folks who have no idea what they're doing. And blaming us. No one asked me if I wanted it changed. I don't know anyone who was asked. I attend both Masses now mostly the NO with an incredibly devout priest. He makes it closer to the actual plan of Vatican II. But it's hard now because of the militant attitude of the NO women parishioners. They seem to take over in a militant way. The priests are afraid of them because they complain to the Bishop.
God in my hand, no thank you. I want God in my soul!
support priests like yours and try to help and dialog with people who might be hostile. More faithful and younger families are moving to more Orthodox Traditional parishes. I have seen this first hand in both TLM parishes and both good solid Orthodox NO parishes. in my area most priest have reinstalled the rails, added back the rosary before mass, the leonined prays at the foot of the alter after mass, high chat, more Latin for Lent and Advent and even have reinstalled the high alter again. Keep praying and showing your happiness. People do not know and only understand what they were told by someone else. Some are also going back to ad orimentum with time, good education and understanding reasons.
Just so you know, Communion on the hand is a legitimate human apostolic tradition.
We have no good reason to think that the Leaders of V2 had ill intentions when the council was called.
And there were indeed legitimate doctrinal concerns that have arisen from society that needed a guiding voice for us laity to listen to.
It's bold of us to think that we have to be consulted of any changes that are to be implemented. Lest we forget, the Catholic church is not a democracy. The changes in V2 were implemented with the goal of bettering society's participation in the church life. In many countries including from where I am, a lot of people stopped going to church because they did not understand what is going on in the mass. Those that continued to go prayed the rosary, or whatever prayer they knew to pray.
I myself was born when NO was already the norm. But i made it a point to try and experience the TLM and I admit it was beautiful. And concerns about the musicality and such aside, is it not beautiful that in the new liturgy, the people actively now share the intentions of the mass because they understand what is going on?
I needed to hear this! Thank you for educating us. It's always humbling when I'm faced with how very much I don't know about our Church.
Matt will you have Bishop Strickland on ?
1:44:47 I agree. I am a new Catholic (2023) and I just went to my first Traditional Latin Mass. It was so beautiful and I cannot wait to go back again!
The Latin Mass was packed at 7:30 am on Sunday, compared the Novous Ordo that I had been going to for years on Saturday at 4 pm and Sunday at 12 pm. I was so surprised at how many people my age and younger were there! Absolutely wonderful! 😍
Thank you for this wonderful interview. I can attest to the point that Novus Ordo masses are improving, and young people (and seminarians/young priests) are a large part of it. Pray for the Church.
“If your temptation is to usurp the rights of the Church hierarchy and authority and become its judge…. Every schismatic thought that they were the faithful remnant, every single one thought they were right and Rome was wrong” -- good luck with that!!!
Chose you this day whom you shall serve but as for me and my household we shall serve the Church!!
Nice interview! Kudos Dr DeClue, very balanced perspective 😊
I appreciate the attempt at having a discussion on Vatican II but the title of the video was a little misleading. All the questions were not answered and I think this kind of discussion can't be just off the top of one's head.
Let's address my main peeve. EENS. I don't know of any dogma of the Church more abused than EENS. He uses the Catechism of Pius X for his defense of Baptism of Desire. Seriously? If your going to have a theological discussion one doesn't use a catechism but official clear documents. The error of belonging to the "Soul of the Church" theory.
This theory was condemned by Leo XIII in the encyclical "Satis Cognitum."
Pope Leo XIII, {link} Satis Cognitum (# 3), June 29, 1896:
“For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the
body of Christ - “Now you are the body of Christ” (I Cor. xii., 27)... From this it
follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden
and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error... It is assuredly
impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that
man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of both
elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of
the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the
Body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.”
again condemned later in 1928:
Pope Pius XI, {link} Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928:
“For since the mystical Body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.”
Isn’t it interesting that Pope Leo XIII condemned the error in the so-called “St. Pius X
Catechism” 6 years before the catechism was published. How could this be? Obviously
this error was around a long time prior, and Pope Leo XIII felt it had reached a point of
being a serious problem; necessitating it to be addressed. But as so often happens,
people don’t listen, especially theologians.
Notice also the fact that Leo XIII points out the union of the Soul of the Church and Her Body: “union of both elements is as absolutely necessary.”
I also hold that the justification of Baptism is united to the Sacrament of Baptism and can not to be separated; like Christ’s soul is never to be separated again from his body after the Resurrection.
So we see catechisms can be a good source for the Faith in general but may contain
errors in some of its detailed points while remaining a general norm for learning the
Faith. Cardinal Ratzinger, as head of the CDF, wrote about the Catechism of the
Catholic Church (CCC) that it is not a “Super Dogma,” nor correct in every detail, but
should be accepted as a general whole- a norm :
“The individual doctrine which the Catechism presents receive no other weight
than that which they already possess. The weight of the Catechism itself lies in
the whole.” [Introduction to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Cardinal Ratzinger,
pp. 25-27]
I call your attention to an ebook on the topic of Baptism and EENS. It incorporates Vatican II into an orthodox understanding.
drive.google.com/file/d/10tHZGk-nlIRNAzDF7c2pBh3y8y8yFJl6/view
Love these overlays on the screen adding context THURSDAY. Well done
Yes!! I loved that too
The problem with Pope Francis' approach is that it pushes the people with Schismatic tendency further away by confirming their fears.
City of God vs City of Man.
I have a hard time not seeing “City of Man” in the NO mass.
Yeah, all the arguments for the new litturgy seems to be founded on utilitarianism (city of man) and not to be derived from the Christ, the apostles and the Holy Spirit.
"The virtue is the mean between two vices. You can fail to have virtue by excess or privation." Well said.
I tell my son that every good has a sin on either side.
And C.S. Lewis said it in The Screwtape Letters before either of us.
Yes, I got it from Aristotle.
That was honestly the best talk ive heard about the "salvation outside the church" issue 💖
I struggled understanding this issue last year, and Jimmy Akin articles helped me so much find the authentic path to understanding what the Scripture, the Fathers, and the Magisterium all say.
Richard's request at the 1:45:18 mark is already done here in Nigeria. Well here in Lagos.
Either First or Last Sunday of the month. Apart from the readings and sermon it is mostly Latin.
I'm a Millennial, I grew up with the NO, and my parents and I sang in an amazing choir at our church for many years. I love some of those songs. I love being able to sing along at Mass. I think Gregorian chant is also beautiful, but everyone's taste in music is different. Please don't assume no one likes the music being sung at NO Masses.
I don’t think that’s necessarily the argument, people just long for order because of this crazy world we live in. And if the Church teaches Gregorian chant has pride of place, we must submit with piety and respect.
"A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing" - an EWTN Documentary sheds some light on American Catholicism
I would love to see Gabiafterhours on this show
I've been looking for the words to describe what Dr DeClue said in this interview. It seems to me (and I'm by no means the interpreter of all things) that what we see today in terms of liturgical "chaos" is really a laying open of what was interiorly the case before VII. I would love to see a return to the TLM in the Roman Church (lex orandi, lex credendi after all) but I also am willing to believe that the Novus Ordo is meant to teach us a lesson, to help us to become a truly Catholic people who could be entrusted with the TLM. I suppose only time will tell.
Fascinating episode so far - I have so many thoughts and questions!
Everytime I go to Novus ordo mass in any local parish, I always fear that I might experience bad music with people not kneeling at sanctus or agnus dei and that fear always becomes reality. I got so tired of it, but thankfully I found reverent mass finder which helped me a lot. And the reason why American Catholic Church music is so bad is; 1. Usually people lead music grew up listening to bad music especially in 70s. 2. American public school or American school in general lacks in classical music education. Even Koreans learn Beethoven, Mozart, Bach in public school. If you go to any Korean parishes in the States, you will find music mostly agreeable and mass pretty reverent because they are culturally very conservative. In most of the Korean parishes women wear veil also.
As a Traditional Catholic I had a really hard time wanting to take this guy seriously after he called Trads lacking a prayer life and unbalanced. And his reference the faithful who attended mass in the 50s as basically zombies simply there waiting for it it be over, this is based on “talking to his mom, and people who lived at that time”. Really? Lukewarmness is always a threat, but the liturgy is not to be blamed for that. And the TLM in its most basic form has converted pagan nations. Missionaries often did not have the means for a solemn high mass for maybe decades.
If people can't understand Latin , how will they know the prayers ?
That’s not an accurate portrayal of what I said. The pagans was from Ratzinger’s 1958 article. And I explicitly said this is not a criticism of the TLM itself, which I attend whenever possible. But it did mean there was a concern for how to get the laity to participate more intentionally in the prayers of the Mass. I also didn’t mean that NO trads have a good prayer life. But it is my guess that many do not. But I suspect that is also the case with many N.O. only attendees.
@@decluesviews2740 Absolutely only because of second Vatican council the faithful can understand what is the meaning of each prayers, it's significance.
Realising the fact that almost all prayers are from the Bible.
English speaking TLM supporters who don't know Latin is able to attend and understand portion of what's happening in TLM only because they have attended Novus Ordo Before...
I support both Novus Ordo and TLM...
But the intolerance shown by TLM supporters are Visible everywhere, also some Novus ordo people who thinks the Sanctuary is a place of Performance is also wrong...
There is a parish in the Archdiocese of Detroit (Old St. Mary's in Greektown) that does one novus ordo Mass per weekend in Latin, with a communion rail and choir. It's beautiful. Sadly, there hasn't been the revival that one would hope to see. The church is nearly empty every week. Once a month that Mass is tridentine instead, and there are always more people there. It's a very interesting thing!
I will visit them
Re Vatican II: "By their fruits ye will know them." The Church ALWAYS needs renewal, but I remember as a child my parents and their intellectual Catholic friends saying "They are asking for trouble." They sure got it.
seethe.
i like how the Ecumenical Council of Vienne say muslims are Faithless and they pray to Mahomet, while V2 says they worship God, ill go to the grave denying v2
Rushing Mass happened, but it was not near the level of the abuse that takes place now. It's like justifying no fault divorce because some men were in an abusive relationship with their wife. What we have now in no way justifies what happened. Those issues should have been addressed with priests and laity, not done completely away with.
I would like to see more of the traditional catholic churches join the Pope, as others have. At the same time, when I hear some latin in the NO, it seems out of place to me. I use to attend both every Sunday and enjoyed both in different ways. I eventually went with NO and traditional masses under the Pope because they reach out to the people have done more community good, in my eyes. But, I would like to see more reverence and quiet moments and an optional kneeler for those inclined to kneel for communion. I kneel anyways, and I see some NO masses actually have provided them. But in general, I don't need to hear Latin because I don't speak it nor did Jesus or likely his Apostles.
A lot accusations and assumptions in this video with not a lot of evidence to back it up.
The failure to take modern philosophy seriously with all its radicality is the problem. We are all saturated with modernity as our Mothers milk. All modern philosophy in its radicality was and remains an attack on human nature and by extension God's Incarnation in Christ. The only thing more radical and almost too good to be true is the Incarnation. If we come to recover our nature it means we must realize what has eclipsed it. We are all moderns.
I’m a new Catholic Novus Ordo is all I have if it’s not valid then I need God’s mercy all the more .
Glad to see this collaboration. This is exactly what the Church needs. Glad that there are prominent voices standing up for the truth, supporting each other, and subsequently supporting the confused laity like myself. Keep standing up to the doomsday cultists.
1:17:52 Regarding the (unaudible) readings in latin: I heard one explanation, that nowadays we tend to look at the readings from our present perspective and treat them like a lesson, educational aspect, that we need to hear and understand them and make some conclusions, but in the old mass they were more like a hymn of praise to God. The first readings often repeated, they were usually from the Book of Wisdom and depicted some aspects of Wisdom (and thus of God). Because of that, like the prayers, they didn't need to be heard by the people.
I don't fully agree with this explanation, I feel like it's more of a try to explain an error (neglecting the proclamation of the Word of God loud and clear enough) afterwards, but I also think that there is some truth in the idea that the readings are not only 'educational', but also have a value of prayer, God's Word becoming alive when it's proclaimed aloud in this exact moment and place.
To say that Vatican 2 was needed to more simply explain the Catholic faith in a way that the far more educated modern person can understand makes no sense. If we are smarter, why do we need a more simplified explaination of the faith?
The segment on Media Impact underscores the imperative that our Pope be as clear and unambiguous as possible. To my mind, that segment affirms the anxiety the faithful have when we hear statements that sound double-minded or ambiguous, because of the precedent for Progressive/academic interpretive rot. Ratzinger/BXVI spent a good portion of his life combating those forces, trying to clarify the points that those forces made a mess of.
Love the handheld incense they are using while discussing V2.
For some of the liturgical questions that didn't get answered fully I highly recommend listening to Father Eric Gilbaugh. He was on Catholic Stuff You Should Know last year and talked specifically about the liturgical movement throughout the 20th century and how it came to a head in V2.
He gives some more possible reasons why Versus Populum became so dominant:
For one, it was thought that was direction early liturgies were done based on archeological discoveries. People thought it was a return to a more "authentic" orientation but, according to him, that has since been disproven after more study. Secondly, (and this come from Ratzinger) at St. Peter's basilica the Pope faces the congregation while doing mass with the altar separate from the wall. So people used mass at St. Peter's as a model for how to do mass with a free standing altar. The irony though is that the reason the Pope faces the people is in order to face East. St. Peter's couldn't be built with the nave behind the altar so they built it in front of it. Ratzinger says it was an architectural accident of history that mass at St. Peters is done facing the people - the true purpose was for the celebrant to face East.
As for music, people may not realize how much of a tall order it was in the 70s to start doing sacred music. As they mentioned, the average parish had no music at mass. There likely weren't any existing choirs and the priests themselves probably didn't know how to chant well. So they had to learn something brand new. On top of that the musical books for the Mass (the Graduale Romanum and Simplex) were only published in Latin and largely ignored by translators. So when masses started to be done completely in the vernacular and hymns were permitted as a 4th option, people went down the path of least resistance and just chose to do hymns. To my knowledge there's no official liturgical translation in English for the Graduale Romanum or Simplex.
Archaeologism is a liturgical error.
This has been one of the best talks on Pints of Aquinas that I've seen in a long time (and there are a lot of good ones). Thank you both so very much! So much wisdom in the advice given, so much gentleness and at the same time truthfulness in the addressing of what's going on in the Church today, beautiful. I see the guidance of the Holy Spirit in this. Thank you so much, brethren!
In my parish we only do the Latin in responses only during Lent, nothing else is in Latin. I wish we did more.
This episode was edifying for both brain and soul. Bravo.
You know, I came back to the church two years ago after drifting in sin for 25 years and it was pretty humiliating to know what a worm I was and am. But this discussion has also helped me to see how important a shield humility is in this ridiculous world. Let me never forget it.
Praise god.
I have been crucified to eorld and world and world has been crucified to me.
I think a good background explanation comes from Bishop Barron discussing “1917” with Brandon Vought. Great explanation of society.
Can’t wait for this one!
Thanks Matt! Great , balanced interview. Dr. DeClue is a breath of fresh air. I'm hoping that he has an increased presence on digital media.
"Vatican 2 - the greatest council of all time by the way" - AI generated Bishop Barron quote.
We have been to several parishes in the DFW area. The Church has fallen so far from any sort of tradition, it's distressful. We walked into a new parish this weekend. The priests were walking down the aisle while modern gospel music with guitars was playing. People were in jeans. Sneakers. Are we pandering to the Protestant majority? What is this? We've lost our identity.
Agreed for most the appearance or identity is enough but the operative action seems meaningless. Cultural Catholicism is a danger although I prefer it over secular culture it eats itself from the inside out becoming just another relativistic identity instead of the way the truth and the life.
Mater Dei in Irving is the best in the area I believe. It’s fssp
I'd encourage you to keep looking (as sad as it is to "parish shop"). I thought for a long time that there weren't any traditional parishes in my city for the longest time after my conversion, but in the last year I've found at least half a dozen and keep hearing about more. In the DFW area there has to be at least a handful of decent parishes, probably more. Pray for the Church.
Have you talked to the priest about how you'd like to start a chant choir?
I’m really surprised! I lived in the DFW area for the better part of a year. While there are some wishy washy parishes, there are some very solid ones. I would highly recommend checking out Christ the King in Dallas or St. Thomas Beckett ordinariate in Fort Worth. There’s a lot of good stuff happening among the young Catholic population there.
Good interview. A bit perplexed on how Dr. Did not understand the importance of ad orientum and the sort of gloss over in the music still being gregorian etc. If it is allowed and the laity would love it, why the push to squash the TLM or those priests and bishops that lean more traditionally.
Respect his take on a lot here. Definitely the extreme traditionalists would be better served by an approach through humility.
Just feel that there is definitely an attack on the faith from within and that lines have always been drawn on church teachings that are being challenged. Very tough time. But holy mother church will prevail. God bless.
I live in a protestant country where Catholics are about 4% of the population or roughly 14k people. I live in a small town, and the only Catholic church we have serves the novus ordo mass, so I'm happy with what I can get! I've asked our parish priest if there is any chance to have the TLM in my country, and he said the local bishop would not allow it.
What a shame
Not a shame.
Most of what people love about the TLM (chant, ad oriented, altar rail etc) is what the Novus Ordo is supposed to be doing anyway. In my experience if you do these things at your Novus Ordo it's even better than TLM.
@@nealkriesterer I think I agree with you on that more than I disagree with you. What bothers me the most is the inconsistency of the mass. We have a fairly "traditional" minded priest and he incorporates latin into the mass every now and then, but it's most of the time in the vernacular. As my options are limited I'll take whatever I can get, but if I could choose I think I'd rather go to the TLM, for consistency and reverence (not that novus ordo can't be reverent).
Yeah but the inconsistency comes from people not following the rules - check out Jubilate Deo by Paul IV in 1974, he makes it very clear that Latin chant is supposed to be the music of the mass.
If people didn't follow the rules for TLM it would be just as inconsistent.
@@nealkriesterer That's where we agree. But until I see that in the novus ordo my preference remains with the TLM. That's not the only reason I would choose the TLM. Like was discussed in this interview, the reason for the V2 changes may have been valid or called for, but the results have been disastrous in some areas. I think getting together and discussing the position of the church in the ever changing modern world is a conversation that needs to be had, but it does not mean changing the church according to the world. The church is not of this world, it is above it and things don't need changing. I get the sense that a lot of the attitudes of "the spirit of V2" have been "how can we appeal to the hip kids?" But in reality you see young people longing for the unmoved rock, the traditional and the sacred. If I had a time machine and would go back to any point of Catholic history and walk into any Catholic church anywhere in the world and recognise at least 90% of what goes on in there, then it is how it should be. But if it were all foreign to me, and looked nothing like the church I know now, then how can we call it Catholic?
Okay, hilarious story, I wore some old painting sweats to the dealership as part of my strategy to get honest service and low price. 1.5 HOURS…not one salesman came. Finally I approached a sales person and asked to see the sales manager who showed up expecting a ‘scene’. I walked over to the truck I wanted and opened up my fanny pack (yep, dad outfit all the way) and showed him the cash I brought to pay in full. He became sooooo helpful. I had to tell him that while I was waiting I had the time to order the truck of my choice online and was having it delivered. I suggested he talk to his sales staff about expectations. I did go back and open a commercial fleet account for our farm later on but it seemed like the right thing to do to establish dominance first before actually doing business. (In a Christian way of course…lol)
Wut
Boom 💥
Love your story!! It’s like the male and more moral version of the scene in Pretty Woman when she’s shopping on Sunset Boulevard. Nice uplifting lesson for your car dealership 😊
Our main parish offers a semi-traditional mass once a week on Sundays. It is the most popular mass. There are multiple parking lots and they are beyond full each and every time. Shouldn't that be a sign that more needs to be offered? Beyond that ONE mass, it struggles with retention and engagement.
I entered my parish back in 2021 before they changed priest, and I loved it. It was very serious, and very reverent. and I was excited to enter that church, but then everything changed and the new pastor came in and new priest, and it became almost like a joke. It was very protestant like. I’ve gone to protestant churches, and I felt like I was in a protestant church I still received my sacraments, but I remember how uncomfortable I was when I was receiving them. They have masses where they play jazz. And it feels like almost disrespectful because they’re playing this loud jazz music while the bread and wine is turning to the body and blood of Christ and you can’t even pay attention because of music so loud. I found a new church though, but it’s kind of far and it’s in the city, but I went yesterday and I absolutely loved it. It was silent and you could just tell that the people that were there really believed in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I absolutely loved it and will be going back, but I understand the struggle of people who are frustrated with their parishes, it doesn’t even seem like I’m in a Catholic Church sometimes I have to sit there and make myself realize you’re in a Catholic church not a protestant church
Lumen Gentium was such a badly written and deceptive document (deliberately so according to Fr. Ralph Wiltgen) that Paul VI had to write the "Preliminary Explanatory Note" on Lumen Gentium reasserting the supremacy of the Pope and his independence from the body of bishops. The note was simply ignored and put in the appendix after the Pope insisted.
Who cares about Vatican II? Just let the traditionalists alone and we’ll let the JPII conservatives alone. It’s time to move on. Vatican II is getting idolized by this guy. It was a dud. Let’s move on.
The mass before vatican 2 was bad! Why? My mom said so.
“I didn’t like it, and that invalidates 1800 years of tradition right there.”