True Christ warns "MY Heart still bleeds because I still see MY Word (Bible and its commands and commandments) twisted. Because, I do not hear the whole truth. There is only one truth and that’s MY Word(Bible 66 books every verse). Woe to you pastors and leaders! You drag thousands of souls to hell with you this way! Be free! MY Word (Bible and its commands and commandments)) sets you free! " "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is in vain for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God." Matthew 15 : 8 - 9
True Christ warns "MY Heart still bleeds because I still see MY Word (Bible and its commands and commandments) twisted. Because, I do not hear the whole truth. There is only one truth and that’s MY Word(Bible 66 books every verse). Woe to you pastors and leaders! You drag thousands of souls to hell with you this way! Be free! MY Word (Bible and its commands and commandments)) sets you free! " "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is in vain for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God." Matthew 15 : 8 - 9
As an Orthodox Jew it’s amazing to listen to Christian‘s have such an emphasis on the details of the story that are in the Bible for example, the flood story or the creation story. Because in Judaism, the details of the story are not important to us as Jews. What is important in the story is the lessons that you take away from the story not the details of the story.
This is because Orthodox Judaism starts off with the premise that the Bible is 100% true and factual, and thus doesn't get bogged down in arguing about the varacity of what is written, but rather focusses on what is being taught through what is written. I have found that Christians with the same approach to the Bible, who avoid getting sidetracked and arguing about whether 60 cubits is possible or not, accepting that is possible because God said so, are the ones with the deeper understanding of Scripture. It the old saying, people cannot see the forest because of the trees.
@@broz1488it’s funny, I’ll have Evangelicals ask me “do you believe the Tanakh is the absolute truth” (whatever absolute means) I respond “I do, but I don’t take it literally…” then they they typicall respond “how is that possible?” “The wisdom of G-d is true, the stories that come along with it are to deliver the message. I don’t care whether G-d parted the Red Sea like Charleton Heston did, what was the meaning is what’s important.” I also find it interesting. Christianity was never standardized. Jesus taught his interpretation of the Torah to an audience of Jews. Paul took it to gentiles who didn’t understand certain concepts, which then he had to adapt, manipulate, or what ever needed to be done in order to get his message across. This is evident in his letter having a gripe with the churches he founded in different areas that had different local cultures and complexities. Even today Christianity isn’t standardized. Catholics and East Orthodox define the trinity differently thus look at each other as heretics. Protestants look at both of them the same way. Covenant Theology Evangelicals look at Dispensationalist Evangelicals as heretics and vice versa. It’s very odd.
@@jf5177 why is it odd that Christians look askance at each other? Judaism does the same thing. Do you not know how many different ways a bottle of milk can be considered kosher? Obviously there are parts of the Bible that is to be taken literally, poetically, metaphorically, etc. The wisdom of a Bible scholar is to know where to do this. I would venture that absolute means with no opposing counter claim or argument. Thus someone who believes that evolution is true, can never say that he believes that the Bible is absolutely true, not when he is holding beliefs in directly conflict with the Bible. Next time someone claims to believe that the Bible is absolutely true, ask them if they believe in a 6 day creation, 6000 years ago? The only possible answer for an absolutist is yes. The Bible doesn't permit any other answer. Although the gap theory proponents have tried to slip the gap theory in to appease the evolutionist. Which technically doesn't invalidate a 6000 year timeframe. In your first post you said you were an Orthodox Jew, out of curiosity I look at the picture in your thumbnail, I'm assuming it's your wedding photo? If so then you are no Orthodox Jew there with your bride dressed like a shiksha. I'm assuming you became frum after your wedding?
It’s weird that one person says it’s because the Bible is treated as 100% true in Judaism. When what you are actually doing is treating it as wisdom in the form of spiritual allegory, which means it doesn’t matter in the slightest whether or not it actually happened, what counts is if it has wisdom that we can use now.
Also in Judaism, the Bible can be read on four different levels or stages. The simple (or literal meaning), Remez, the allegorical reading through hints and allusion. Derash, the metaphorical reading and Sod, the hidden meaning through the Hebrew text's secret or mystery. In fact the English word mystery has its root in the Hebrew word for to hide. The acronym for the four readings iss PaRDeS which is Paradise in English.
Christianity is very self-critical and when the scriptures are actually rightly divided - not “Acts 9,” been there - they make perfect sense and offer the world’s only real hope. Anyone who can rationally look at this world we live in and not see the work of an artist beyond all human comprehension is certifiably insane! The human body alone is intricately designed beyond belief - and I’m hoping that the fact that science is altering the very blueprint of life, the genome, will bring the Son of God back to the earth to settle some serious hash! I want to be on the plus side of his return - not the minus! All it takes is a one-time placement of faith in Jesus Christ and his accomplishments at Calvary by accepting God’s gift in Ephesians 2:8&9 KJV - no strings attached; you don’t ever need to do anything else like become a Holy Roller! Be yourself trusting Christ; your sins are already forgiven upfront: Colossians 1:14 KJV and nothing you do or don’t do can take your eternal life - that began the instant you trusted Christ - away from you, Ephesians 4:30 KJV! Just do it.
It isn’t kind or caring to enable people to sin. It doesn’t matter how loving and compassionate you think you are being, you are simply helping them cause harm to themselves and others. Just because you don’t see the harm or want to see the harm, doesn’t mean it’s not there. Don’t agree? Great, then agree to disagree. No need to label someone a bigot because they have a different opinion on morality than you do.
To be honest, an old liberal atheist buddy of mine was the most racist person I've ever met. Conservatism does not equal racism. That's a trope that evidently even former Christians fall for.
@@hamwithcheese586 IT is like you are saying, "It isn't kind or caring to enable people to have bad karma" as though "karma" is real. The same thing with your "sin". It does not exist.
I was not raised as a Christian, so coming to Christ to me was like being given a new life. The only ones I know personally leaving the faith are people that have been raised in it. I listened to this just to grasp why someone would leave and just what he had to say. I am non denominational and believe it’s not about religion but a relationship, and it’s completely changed my life. Like his friend said, he experienced Christ- I have as well, so I will never leave no matter what “information” someone has. When you meet him you just know. I’m not as educated of course as they are, but I will say I did start an Orthodox Christian Podcast hosted by 2 priest (1 with 2 PhD’s and one with 2 masters) who go into the ancient world with a biblical view and they answered so many questions I had about other ancient cultures and similarities. They also go into Enoch, Jubilees, etc and I have to say it’s not only interesting but it’s actually built my faith even more. They are not Christian Orthodox apologist per say, they just share their knowledge. It’s called The Lord of Spirits if anyone is interested.
Are you allowed to study Sumerian tablet translations? Other Religions? You should. Because if you think ANY church on the planet is going to tell you the truth, you are sadly mistaken. GET WOKE.
The early Christians were just trying to figure things out, its really not until the Reformation in the 1500's when everyone was allowed access to a bible in their own language, that it began to open up and become what it is today. Derek seems to think that Christians who are open to ANE views helping us to interpret scripture are liberals, but that is a bit harsh, since many very conservative Christians accept that we need to include these understandings and be open on interpretation. With that said, history (languages etc...) which Dr. Bowen is expert in, relies on what we know now, not on what might be discovered later and can never consider the supernatural (for example they have to accept late dates on prophetic literature because no one can predict the future), are often proven wrong later through further finds (consider the dead sea scrolls).
@@mcgragor1 I think you are not talking about the same thing as Derek. Derek was simply pointing out the New Testament writers were quoting Hebrew Scriptures ( translated into Greek) in allegorical, metaphorical, and typographical ways. Rarely, do the New Testament writers quote the Hebrew Scriptures literally. What you are talking about was the state of Western European Christianity centuries after the fall of the Western Roman Empire when the people lost the knowledge to read and write Latin and Greek and therefore could not read the Bible without it being translated into their vernacular language.
I’m a former Catholic, and I lived with cognitive dissonance from age 15 to 50. Now at 61, I’m so happy to be free from shame, judgement of others and the pain of knowing my life was devoted to a mythology.
I was raised as a catholic but was not born again. God knew my heart and until I became born again as explained by Jesus I did not have a living personal relationship with Jesus. The new birth experience opens one’s eyes as in the words of Amazing Grace “…was blind but now I see…” changes one’s faith in Jesus Christ our wonderful Lord.
How are you free of shame? Are you saying that you had the power to stop doing things you should be ashamed of, but only exercised that power when you became an atheist? And I promise you, people are still judging you. Every bit as much.
Coz if you truly believe, the Holy Spirit dwells in you. You can’t have second thoughts about God if God is in you. There’s no turning back. God is truly amazing. Jesus said “ I love those who love me”. But we have free will, you can choose Jesus or not it’s up to you. Which also shows His great love and affection for us. He won’t force you into anything you don’t wanna do. But remember we’re here for only a short time. I’d rather believe in Jesus than nothing. May God forgive n protect us.
@@fabriceirakoze5020is is force though. If the option is “believe in me or suffer in eternal hellfire” - this is not free will. It’s like holding a gun to someone’s head. This is not free and uncoerced choice.
@@mannysilver211Ultimatum or not, you still choose, and you're still accountable for it. The outcome of your choice is what counts. I'm a Christian and I choose to believe. I stopped trying to make excuses for not believing when my God has brought me life. It's a miracle in itself. But there are many other reasons as well.
Something that helped me was noticing the difference between rational thinking and rationalizing. Proper rational thinking seeks the truth of the matter. Rationalizing uses rational thinking to preserve a belief. Thinking tends to stop when the belief has been preserved.
Basically, you described confirmation bias. All religion requires confirmation bias in order to sustain itself. Btw, I prefer the word "dogma" over the word "belief." Belief results from being convinced of something - nothing wrong with that. Dogma is that which is accepted as true but never examined for its substantiation.
@@themanape I cannot share links on the comments section of RUclips, but I can recommend the bible study clips in the library of Dan McClellan here on RUclips. Dan McClellan is a bible expert and religious historian. He critically and concisely addresses all of these topics, and many more. He also fields reactions from his critics on TikTok, and those are shared on RUclips as well. He is the real deal.
@@BigBri550 That isnt true. There was a time where I comsidered believing in Buddhism, and other religions but decided on Christianity as my primary belief system. There are people who became atheist and converted back. It isnt confirmation bias, there are also those who have had profound experiences to cement their beliefs.
It’s so relieving to hear people who’ve been through the same deconstruction I have. It feels good to just say “I don’t believe this” without being shamed. It’s just simply mythology.
I like Dr. Bowen's tone, especially at the end, far more than the host's. I grew up in a liberal mainline church that emphasized what the Bible calls fruit or love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, coupled with the command to be humble, and social justice. I saw those qualities in a number of older members, and the dedication to social justice. I found that inspiring. Maligned as they are, and poorly attended now, maybe, mainline churches were known for scholarship and open-mindedness. Graduates of the finest liberal universities and schools of divinity and theology pastored those churches. They were aware of the oral tradition and how people living in the time of the oral tradition viewed stories, the moral or truths, and storytelling. They understood that Biblical stories were an assemblage of stories passed down for generations and from near and far. They understood that, generally speaking, the story was simply a vehicle of sorts used to carry what mattered, the truth or moral. We believed that ancient people had encounters with God and used every literary device known, every story known, to share that encounter and the truth shared in that encounter. It was only in adulthood, in my university years that I was directly exposed or listened to evangelicals, fundamentalists and people who viewed the Bible as inerrant. That experience caused some tumultuous years. Thankfully, decades later, my faith in God is stronger than ever. It is based on a relationship with God, some personal, vivid experiences with God, a lifetime of being shown where I was wrong and being shown a better way, a better way of thinking, etc. I say better because I am more loving, caring and compassionate than before and, thus, more fulfilled. Like others, I have a long way to go but the faith is central and trust it always will be in my life. The thing that bolsters my faith the most is the freedom that I have gained in becoming more like Christ. Like He said, the truth will set you free. I am not in bondage, as it is put. If one looks around, he sees people looking for significance, meaning, value, and purpose in many, many different places. Personally, that felt like life imprisoned and brought little fulfillment and peace of mind. Many people outside of the faith, those looking for significance, etc. tell me that they feel the same sort of bondage, the same lack of fulfillment. Argue with me and laugh if you will. There is something very real about this Person Jesus. If you read the New Testament with purpose, He will speak to you. If you engage with Him, He will teach you, and help you grow into a peace of mind that is unfathomable.
Are you saying (like most “truth seekers”) that the Bible stories about God killing all the babies, killing Ananias and Sophira, ordering murder of sabbath workers, etc. are all “parables” of some kind? Was Jesus was just a good philosopher trying to save the Jews from their slavery to Judaism?
Derek, I can't thank you enough for your amazing content and guest interviews. You have been a deeply needed anchor in a very difficult deconversion process. I am forever grateful that you are such an astute leader among truth seekers.
@@MythVisionPodcastI am not religious but I like Richard Carrier I was raised in a Christian family. I haven't been able to study like I should but I like history and these topics are important
@@MythVisionPodcastyall are breaking down the Bible what I think I could be wrong but the Torah is the oldest holy book. I can't read Hebrew I have been away from the Christian church since 2015. It's crazy cause Islam isn't that much different I am a believer in Evolution like Science Earth Science
@@MythVisionPodcastscary times back then because of the Church I'm Black but the Church has been messed up. Money and corruption do they care or is the truth suppressed or hidden
@@TimothyZakariathe people are the church of Christ NOT the denominational buildings, most of which are corrupted for $$$ from Grubberments. The Bible does warn us about Governments 👿👿 Denominations = Division .. the typical divide & conquer tactic has been going on for 1000’s of years.
Raised Catholic, I believed until I started reading the OT as a young girl. I was shocked to learn about polygamy, women treated as property, daughters sold into slavery, Abraham & other patriarchs impregnating slaves, etc. My mom said “oh that’s the OT.” But later I learned that the Church still didn’t consider women equal. Thats all it took for me. If God made us, then He’d know women are as smart & capable as men. So clearly God didn’t inspire the Bible & the Church was wrong. And poof, my faith bubble popped.
??? The histories of the Bible are what happened, not what God wanted to happen. God told Abraham he would make him a great nation. He didn't say, "have a child with Hagar." That was a mistake. Everything else you mentioned works the same way. Take another look at it, and don't ask you mom. Faith is not a bubble that pops. Drop a coin. Do you think it will hit the ground? That is faith. God is the same.
@@TheDrBabaloo Except I can drop a coin and watch & hear it land. God on the other hand, can not be detected by my five senses. For me it is beyond reason to believe in an entity made of non matter! It’s hard line for me as a trained scientist. If you want to see the real miracles of modern life, look to science. They actually investigate, and eschew assumptions & rationalization, relying instead on actual data used to form hypothesis that are challenged in every way possible. If god interacts with this world, it would be surprising that there is zero actual evidence of that. Science has not found giant holes in heir research suggesting a supernatural claims.
Really ? And you never read what Apostle Paul wrote there is neither male nor female but you are one in Christ. You left because you don’t like it is all. Not everyone is saved and gains eternal life
@@waynecolburn8849 That’s not all Paul had to say about women, though, was it? I mean, come on, you chose Paul as an example of how Christianity isn’t sexist? Is this a joke? As for your belief that god made billions of people, with the intent of only “saving” a select few, that’s a pretty awful belief. The idea that a god would create people he intends to torture in hell sounds sadistic to me. Also, you are minimizing my experience with that “is all” comment. It sounds like this is your way to minimize the experience of atheists is all. This makes me believe that you have very little knowledge about atheism. Here’s what apologists get wrong. No one leaves their religions flippantly. No one leaves for fun. It is generally a difficult and painful process, that cost them dearly. Don’t all religious people struggle with faith? Atheists have simply lost that battle, no matter how much they may have wanted to keep believing. It’s like wanting to believe your spouse is faithful, after catching them in the act. Beliefs don’t care about your feelings. If you want to sum it all up in one package, the only reason people leave the faith is because they no longer believe. It sounds as if everything you know about atheist came from an apologist. So let me help out: First most atheist were once believers and most have read the Bible & understand Christianity. People don’t start out trying to destroy their faith. Quite the opposite. Many started by trying to become better christians & grow their faith through a deeper study of the Bible. This is such a common experience that it is often joked in atheist circles that reading the Bible is the first step to atheism. Secondly, atheist aren’t lying to themselves, they don’t just want to sin, they aren’t angry at god, and they didn’t lose faith because they got hurt or suffered a loss. Most don’t even believe that god doesn’t exist. They simply lack belief in your god. And about your comment that I left my faith because I “don’t like it”, that suggests people should remain faithful to a religion they don’t like, even if , as in my case, I found it to be immoral. That doesn’t even make sense. Peace out!
I greatly enjoyed the final two minutes, where Dr. Bowen explains that he agrees that it’s okay for people to have different interpretations of ancient texts. But he disagrees with the fundamentalist approach of believing that your interpretation is the only correct one, by which all humanity should be judged. I couldn’t agree more, Dr. Bowen.
@@tasmarkou5681 all I know is that my exhuband could do rings around me when it came to arguing. But it didn’t mean he was right or that winning the argument made him happy. In the end I got tired of constantly being told I was wrong. So now he’s in his castle being “right” alone and miserable. Even the kids got tired of his schtick.
@@chottstuff leaving a church and leaving God are two completely different things. If anything, being born again is one of the major reasons people leave their manmade church, but never God. That which is seen, cannot be unseen, that which is known cannot be unknown, that which is born cannot be unborn.
The real problem is when you question, and listen to all the arguments. One day I started listening to debates with atheists and Christians, and that's when I started to realize the strength of the atheist's arguments, and the weakness of Christian's. I was uncertain at that point, so I was just looking for the truth.
Seminary school is basically where religious scholars have studied all the irrational and contradictory parts of the Bible and produced "workarounds " in order to combat rational thinking. If you think rationally, don't waste your time debating religious people.
I don’t know why this came into my feed but I’m subscribing. This could have been my husband’s story. He even joined the Air Force and his father was a preacher.
For me I also grew up in the Church with fundamentalist knowledge then became Agnostic during late high School and University (I graduated with a double degree with Robotics and Mechatronics / Business) .This was due having so many doubts in the Bible, I became what you call a doubter or an apostate. But God brought be back, I decided to give God a chance I had nothing to lose, I saw God's love and I accepted Christ again, I decided to get Baptised, God started to answer my doubts. I went through 2 near death experiences and saw God's deliverance, I saw God's power and verification for the Trust and Faith in my life.
Care to elaborate on how god answered your doubts? I cannot make myself believe, and would like God to reveal himself to me to remove my doubts. I was a devout christian for 30 years but got no such revelation.
@@brianvell When I was doubting and was fairly rebellious against God, I had a strange dream where a powerful voice from heaven spoke to me and asked me WHO ARE YOU?, me being rebellious at first didn't respond with respect until I realized I was speaking to God then I repented, We spoke about a lot of things and asked lots of questions, I should've written this down years ago but because I can barely remember now. Then the powerful voice asked me if I believed in His Son, I said Yes , then He gave me something . Then I felt something enter my heart. Then I experienced something extradimensional that was out of this world or the 3rd dimension. Then I woke up then the first thing I thought if that extradimensional thing was the thing the Christians were calling the rapture. There is a lot of supernatural things that happened in my life but will take a long time to type in the comments section. I didn't really seeked or asked for signs from God. I think God will speak to someone or show signs to who He chooses and to glorify his Name but we cannot force God to answer or show signs the way we want to as it is written do not tempt the Lord your God. If your goal is to see a sign from God so that you will believe then there's many Jews who saw and heard and some still doubted and some plotted to put Jesus to death after they saw or heard that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John Ch11). “Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith." (Habakkuk 2:4). Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen(Hebrews 11 ). Most of my doubts were answered in the Holy Bible as that is God's word with guidance by the Holy Spirit. We need to humble ourselves if we want to hear from God. God hates the proud and may harden their hearts even more. If you want God to reveal himself to you, and receive the Holy Spirit, you first must humble yourself, Repent from sin and Accept the Gospel that God sent his only Son to die to pay the penalty for your sins and rose again the 3rd day. Romans10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. " Acts 2:38 “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Religion does. Politics does in a cult-like Woke way. Extremist ideologies, religious and secular, do. "Whole different level" is not the exclusive domain of Religion, and I'm not implying that it cannot be fully and fairly scrutinized for any evils and hypocrisies. ( Which is when Religion can be ESPECIALLY bad where any of its adherents fundamentally betray their communities with scandals, abuse, lies. )
I can only imagine that he was pressurised as a child. I found that God was love beyond anything I knew. He is also pure and holy and that is why we need that forgiveness through Christ.
Religion does do that. But everyone seems to have a religion that does this. The Woke Religion for example, despite being mostly devoid of Theism, has as much delusion as any Theistic religion.
It hurt so much when i had 'friends' who would use the same appologetics we had been taught to try to re-convert me. It pushed me further away from them. Once the questions and problems start stacking up you can't juat explain them away with 'god works in mysterious ways,' anymore.
Not sure what do your friends mean by mysterious ways but I'd say God is no longer working mysteriously after the cross. He does work miraculously and until He takes away the heart of stone from you and give you a heart of flesh, you can't believe.
Dude spent waaayy more time explaining his analogies and metaphors for how he justified his doubt than he did actually substantively explaining his disagreement with the historical texts and their support of the Biblical narrative. Tells you right there almost what the problem is. Pride.
Dr Josh is an endlessly enjoyable person. So grateful for his time here in the land of the living, and his hard work. He was definitely a key part of my deconversion, and I bet I'm not alone.
there was nothing said in this video that explained exactly what and why he now thinks the bible in full of errors . in fact the main reason he gave toward the end of the video was simply that he was turned off by certain people who said that morality should be legislated . but i say so what , alot of morality is legislated and in our laws by both political parties . stealing is illegal and so is murder and some say that those are based on the ten commandments so not every law based or loosely based on the bible is such a bad thing .
@@tasmarkou5681 I would recommend you speak to my Catholic-Anglican friend. He came to my country twenty years ago and attended temple with me every week. He fell in love with Buddha Dhamma. He abandoned his family, his possessions, and everyone he loved and embraced the life of a mendicant. Now he is an ordained bhikkhu living as a “forest monk” on his way to becoming an arhat (in my unordained lay opinion). You see, we all have our stories. They are just stories.
This interview was really helpful. I really appreciate the two gentlemen’s thorough and humble explanations of their deconversion stories. As a Christian, I cannot imagine how horrible it must have felt to have others assert that your faith was never real. I am sorry for that. I was initially afraid to listen- afraid my faith could not hold up to this rigor of doubt. I am even more convinced of the truth of Christianity. I am no apologist- but I came to faith through a comprehensive study of history, archaeology, comparative mythology, genetics, philosophy, and as many other sciences and religions/world views as I could find. While my study was outside of formal academia, it took years to finally arrive at a conclusion in my head which was later confirmed by an encounter with Jesus. My advice is this- the westernization of eastern texts can be a tragedy. Attempting to harmonize the gospels results in a loss of so much meaning. The people the apostles were writing to are not “us”. They are not trying to convince “us” of the veracity of the resurrection of christ. Reading without understanding the author, their audience, and the cultural context really makes it easy to miss the layers of brilliance in the writings. I love you both and know that your minds, intellect, and love for reasoning are gifts from God. I pray that you would be drawn to the immaterial- the things that can’t be seen or touched- and that would renew your sense of wonder. This world is not all there is. We are more than flesh and bone. We have a purpose. We have a creator. And He loves each of us. God bless you both. I mean that.
I am going through a faith crisis currently, and have been for almost a year now. I have a BA in preaching and an M.Div. But my journey, while certainly taking me out of evangelicalism, is actually moving me towards historic Christianity, either Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy. What made me leave is sometimes called "rampant interpretive pluralism." Basically, everyone interprets the Bible differently and there's no stopping it. It's absolutley out of control in the Protestant world (a recent estimation is 38,000 denominations worldwide in 2010), but in the other two branches there still exists an unbroken line of apostolic succession through bishops. They have the authority to interpret Scripture and guard Tradition. In both of those branches there is legitimate authority to interpret Scripture and a solid connection to church history. I may be leaving evangelical Christianity, but I would actually say becoming Catholic or Orthodox makes me even more Christian! Lol Additionally, I have been hit hard by objections like these many times, but this is precisely why interpreting the Bible so literally every single time isn't the way. It's not something the Church has ever done until recently in church history (idk about Catholicism but EO doesn't actually have any official eschatological position besides the 2nd Coming). It places too much stock in man's ability to understand divine revelation (Proverbs 3:5), which comes from a source of unsearchable and infinite wisdom (Romans 11:33-36; 2 Peter 3:15-16). Not even Jesus' disciples understood what He was saying most of the time, but one thing they did understand was that He had the words of life (John 6:68). 2,000 years later, the Church which Christ built through them is not only still here, but it's among the world's major religions with billions of followers around the world. That's a powerful argument that there really is something True even amongst everything that's unclear. Personally, what keeps me in my faith is my past and present experiences of God. There is no way for me to list everything He has done for me here, but I will say that I have no reason for living if He doesn't have a plan for me. God has given me so much; who else would treat me better or give me more if I left Him? This world is so broken; there's so much pain and evil, if God doesn't exist then why stay in this awful, awful place and live a miserable life?
Have you looked at Unitarian or Quaker groups? Specific evangelical interpretations of the newer disagreements aren't divisive in them. At least in my experience, they're more ecumenical than more common evangelical denominations. Orthodox mystical practices and study are very interesting, but I don't have experience with it.
My sincere question to you is: Why do you even want to go to interpretations when it comes to the most important subjects? Why don't you go by the plain, ex-pl-ic-it, unambiguous, clear-cut, razor-sharp, without any room for multiple interpretations or imagination somersaults or mental gymnastics or conjecture contortions preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible? The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.” (Caps mine) One of the names of The Q-ur-an is The Reminder. God Almighty in His FINAL Testament calls the people of the previous scriptures BACK to the straight path - the path which they have abandoned / forgotten / c0rrupted / no knowledge of. Jesus of the Bible preached and practiced: 1) Who is THE ONLY TRUE GOD? ✅ The Father (John 17:3) 2) Who is the God of Jesus? ✅ The Father (John 20:17) 3) Who alone to be worshipped as God? ✅ The Father (John 4:21) 4) Whose name be hallowed? ✅ The Father (The Lord's prayer) 5) Whose kingdom come? ✅ The Father (The Lord's prayer) 6) Whose will be done on earth as it is in heaven? ✅ The Father (The Lord's prayer) 7) Whom to ask for daily bread? ✅ The Father (The Lord's prayer) 8) Whom to ask for forgiveness? ✅ The Father (The Lord's prayer) 9) Whom to pray to for guidance? ✅ The Father (The Lord's prayer) 10) Who delivers from the e-v-i-l one? ✅ The Father (The Lord's prayer)
You can then interpret the unclear, in light of the clear and plain and explicit. You're a reasonable individual. God Almighty gave you the blessing of the brain for a reason. So that you think and reason. It's of such importance. You reason and you arrive at the truth and when you accept it however bitter it may be, God forgives your sins. “Come now, let us *reason* together, says the LORD: 🚩 though your sins are like scarlet, 👉 ✅ *they shall be as white as snow* 👈 ; 🚩 though they are red like crimson, 👉 ✅ *they shall become like wool* 👈 Isaiah 1:18
God Almighty does have a plan for you. It's in His mercy and love for you that He DESTINED that all this knowledge of the truth came to you. What you do after knowledge of the truth has come to you is up to you.
I was in training to become a pastor, but ultimately once I took notice how my fellow church members viewed so anyone who wasn't straight, male, cis and white with so much hate and fear, I ended up leaving baptism. havn't looked back. almost been 10 years.
Very sad! Maybe you werent in the right place! Not everyone thinks like that. Its also a ministerial job to steer people away from baser thoughts like hate.
Why blame God and Jesus for what man does? Jesus is In all of the scriptures John 5:39 (KJV) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jesus's birth Micah 5 2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Matthew 2:5 (KJV) And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, Jesus's suffering Psalm 22 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns Jesus arriving In Jerusalem Zechariah 9:9 (KJV) Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Matthew 21:5 (KJV) 21:5Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. John 12:14-15 (KJV) 12:14And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,15Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. Psalm 22 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns ************************ Psalm 118:22 (KJV) The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner. Matthew 21:42 (KJV) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Psalm 34:20 (KJV) He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken. John 19:36 (KJV) For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. Judas: Psalm 41:9 (KJV) Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up [his] heel against me. Psalm 55 12 For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: 13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. 14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company Zec 11 12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 ¶ And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD Matthew 26: 14 ¶ Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, 15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. 16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him Crucifixion Psalm 22:18 (KJV) They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. Luke 23:34 (KJV) Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Psalm 22:16 (KJV) For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Psalm 22:1 (KJV) [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring? Mark 15:34 (KJV) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 26:54 (KJV) But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? Matthew 26:56 (KJV) But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled. Mark 14:49 (KJV) I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled. Luke 24:27 (KJV) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:32 (KJV) And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? Luke 24:45 (KJV) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, John 5:39 (KJV) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words Acts 2 29 ¶ Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 ¶ For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 ¶ Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ Acts 18:28 (KJV) For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ. Acts 28:23 (KJV) And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening. Romans 1:2 (KJV) (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Romans 16:26 (KJV) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 1 Corinthians 15:3 (KJV) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Corinthians 15:4 (KJV) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: Matthew 2:23 (KJV) And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. Matthew 5:17 (KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 11:13 (KJV) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. Mark 1:2 (KJV) As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Luke 1:70 (KJV) As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: Luke 10:24 (KJV) For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. Luke 16:31 (KJV) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 18:31 (KJV) Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. Luke 24:25 (KJV) Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Luke 24:44 (KJV) And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
The more i study Christianity the more i realise Christianity did not destroy paganism but adopted it. So much pagan retuals and philosophies were borrowed in adopted in the religion. Eat my flesh, drink my blood, wash sins with blood, lots of crap. Made the religion fundamentally paganistic.
Pagan just means "not christian". It's not pointing to any actual groups or specific qualities or beliefs or practices. Christianity cannot be "fundamentally not christian". Christianity is fundamentally jewish with a smattering of Greco Roman influences. The gospels pull from Greco Roman literature and philosophy. But calling those influences "pagan" would be like calling Twilight a mormon book just because the author happens to be mormon. Ritual blood atonement comes from judaism. The eucharist stuff comes from Paul who was jewish. None of the things you list come from anywhere outside of the religious context christianity emerged from. Christians definitely destroyed non-christian groups. A lot of that was through attrition and winning out in various culture wars. But a lot of it was through murdering a whole lot of people too. Heck, one of their favorite pastimes from about 1000 ad onwards was killing other christians. They loved doing that. They may have been and continue to be awful but calling the religion fundamentally pagan is just incorrect on multiple levels.
All of the abrahmic religions are fundamentally paganistic. The roots in ancient hebrew worship was no different than the 'pagan' Canaanite religions that surrounded them. Pagan is really just a tribal term to mean 'not us'.
Tf you are talking about? Judaism itself is pagan and the God Muslims, Christians and Jews worship has pagan origin there is nothing "non pagan" in any Abrahamic religion be it Islam or Christianity.
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Ex-mormon here and I def grew up quite anti-intellectual. I would even say I had a holier than thou attitude as a stay at home mom. (NO SHAME on sahm, just is what my experience was.) And it burned me big time when I chose to leave my marriage. (I’ll have an associate’s degree in May. Yippee.)
An Australian Bishop who is a professional geneticist discovered that no native Americans had any Jewish blood. He became an atheist after about a year.
I love listening to Dr. Josh. I grew up in a fundamentalist baptist church. I think my journey out took me a lot longer and did include transitioning to a liberal christian for a number of years but it never felt right. I always had a hard time believing that the Bible had mistakes. Once I realized that there were errors I also realized that I no longer believed.
How could you possibly believe, that the Bible is error free? Even Witnesses in criminal trials do not have the same testimony about the same incident and actually, when police find that they have the same story, they doubt the veracity of their story . But hey , join the apostasy of the church which was prophesied in the Bible that you no longer believe in .😳
@@jamiehudson3661Múltiple, such as contradiccions, a Deity who kills a lot of israelites just because king David counted the number of the tribes, ughh that sounds like a toxic relationship, Say love the lord with all your hearth and mind, but no tiene to think about yourself thats insane, besides why does the King James Buble version removes plenty of old testamento books and King James belonged to a Masonic sect? What do i end up at the end?
@@AlexPerazaTVI was never an extremist yet I once believed in God and when I look back now, God sounds like such a ridiculous idea, no matter if you're an extremist or not, once you start to think seriously, religion starts to sound like a load of BS.
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I am so glad to find this discourse. I am 70 and have been struggling with "Evangelical Christianity" for 65 years. I was brought up in a church that preached hell ,fire, and brimstone. The preacher screamed and "hollered".The older women rolled in the aisles, showing their petticoats and girdles. This scared me all the time. I was told, if you don't be good, God is going to get you. (Not the devil). During the Afghanistan War withdrawal and then the war in the Ukraine, I got mad at God for the atrocities. I had a Christian counselor at this time and he was a nice Christian. He could talk to me about my doubts, without judging me. Also, I got mad at these same Christians for being extremists and advocating using guns and violence for their Christian Nationalism. I quit watching any mainstream media--my cable TV. I read tons of books on early Christianity, new Findings ( Dead sea scrolls, Book of Thomas, etc., the lost books of the Bible). I read many points of view Tons of Books.. I studied many different religions. I re-read the Bible about 3 times. I was upset, because I wanted to believe like I did at a few times in my life. But it was like telling a kid there is no Santa or Easter Bunny. I was dis-illusioned. I found so many discrepencies (sp) in the Bible. So many horrible stories. I made friends with a male gay person, and realized how some Christians were so mean to him. However, my Mom is a "devout" Christian. I would never tell her I don't believe in the Bible as before. My best friend is Christian--a very mean, devious person. I always tell her she uses saving grace as a free pass to go to "heaven" .Her son tells her the same thing. She is dying and I would not tell her for anything that I don't believe in Heaven anymore. Both women tell me they can't wait to get to Heaven to see their dead relatives. This does not interest me. Mom was a farmer, so Heaven to her is a huge beautiful garden. My boyfriend's, now dead, idea of heaven was all the beer you could drink, but according to Paul he is saved. Sometimes, now, I wish I could believe in Heaven and go around being happy and praying. So, anyway, I am still mad at God. I believe in God as what causes the universe to function, the physics, the math, human achievements, science, the beautiful flowers, trees. A moving force. He also is responsible for the nukes, the child pornography, etc. I wish I could pray to God to help us with all the atrocities, to pray for my brother's cancer, to pray for all the bombings lately. I used to pray a lot. But I don't believe this anymore or the Jewish-Christian God. I don't want to be an atheist. I want to take the best of all religions and have spirituality. I want to believe in trying to be moral and do good. I still love Jesus for the good he did. I wish I had someone to talk to about this in person. So, thanks so much for your point of view!!!
Hey Debra, I just want to recommend RUclips Channels that could help you to better understand (real) Christianity: 'Frank Turek', Daily Dose Of Wisdom, and Cold-Case Christianity. Now to address some of your points. You calling a mean devious person a Christian... means that they're not a Christian those they may claim to be. Christians follow Jesus and seek to be more like Him (but we fall short). Still, by their fruits, you shall know them. That is not AT ALL a fruit of being a Christian filled with the Holy Spirit. Why are you mad at God? Is it because of the evil that's in the world? The fact that you can recognize evil points to you knowing that there is objective good out there. That's a standard that only comes from God(that's why we feel and need to obey it, and when we don't we make excuses or make up a reason why when we do something wrong). If God exists why evil? Is that you're question? Evil exists because man is sinful and has free will. God gave me 2 hands for a reason but he also gave me free will. God didn't give me 2 hands to lay hands on people and beat up homeless people. They were meant to do good. So when I do bad I can't say "God made me do it." it was my free will. I (and sounds like you too) believe that evil needs to be punished and certainly not rewarded. And it will be. The problem a lot of people have is that they say that justice for evil must be carried out... and when in the Old Testament God does that... they question His moral character. If you have questions, feel free to ask.
To a troubled person, Jesus said "against evil, I made you." He is responsible for having given us freedom, but we're lazy, and we easily say oh it's someone else's fault. Wrong. We are responsible.
@@harveygosal Hey can I recommend to you that all religions are made up and just a pass time for socializations. Humans are animals that have to control others and want everyone around them to believe in the same things. Much like a sport team. We are only here for a limited time.. Well I think theirs Technology that will one store your virtual you..Any ways go out and enjoy the good clean air and scenery that whomever the creator has given US. Msg for Debra also
At about 48:00 in, Derick is talking about moving from one extreme to the other. I agree with him. It's moving from an extreme to the middle. I am reminded of the joke about a person walking along and encounters a man who is smacking his own hand with a 2 X 4. The man who is strolling along asks the other, "Why are you hitting your hand with a block of wood? It's gotta be doing serious damage" The other person pauses for a moment in his task and says, "Because it feels so good when I stop." It's not about going from one extreme to the other, its about going from one extreme to neutral. The shift is so drastic that neutral seems like an extreme.
Excellent interview. As an ex-fundie mid-deconstruction and struggling, it was moving and helpful to me to hear how passionate he was about his faith and love for Jesus. Really appreciate that he went in depth about his old beliefs to help refute the "you were never a Christian" mantra. It hurts to hear that when you devoted every aspect of your life to the faith.
He didn't refute it. He merely showed that learning a Christian manifesto off by heart and quoting scripture, doesn't make one a Christian. He also clearly showed that salvation is not by works. That despite the time and effort he spent being a Christian, if you don't have it in your heart, nothing you do on the outside is of any value. He in real life provided evidence in support of Matthew 7:21-23.
Unfortunately, people always find excuses so the person leaving the faith has never been a true believer. Surely, some comments will arise claiming this.
@@FluidThinker it is because your understanding of being a Christian is akin to joining the boy scouts. I joined, got my badges, learnt the songs, put in my community service hours, but didn't like it so I left. Being a Christian is akin to a love affair, it is you falling in love with God. You don't do things because you fear punishment, you do things out of love because it pleases your beloved. Resulting in one coming to know God on a personal level. You wish me to believe that a person could be in a relationship with the greatest love of their life one day, and then the next day declare that God the fulcrum of that relationship doesn't exist? Impossible. Many Christians may reject the church and not attend church, may even be involved in things that they know is wrong, but to take that extra step and declare that God doesn't exist, no Christian can do that, because having had a personal relationship with God, they know such a statement is a lie. Thus the only ex Christians who can deny God, are those who never had a personal relationship with God, never had a face to face encounter with God, and without that personal relationship bond, can you really call them Christian just because they joined the marching band at Church?
I went thru a stage somewhat like this, not as extreme but I took it seriously and believed…I even read the Bible front to back in high school…and my questions started. Actually someone else questioned me and that started me questioning Why? As he said, he got beat up, and people get beheaded for being Christian and so on…and the answer I got was that you must be prepared to suffer and die for,your beliefs, that this life is just temporary and doesn’t matter compared to eternity…and yet this life could get you sentenced to everlasting torment for something done out of ignorance, not malice or hatred, but just the misfortune of be ing born in a country that has different beliefs and you are just doing what your parents and society tells you…just like we do about Christianity. The more people would question me about my beliefs the more I realized I didn’t know what I believed and was just doing what other people said I should (and yet few if any did it themselves). I was not okay with people being sentenced to hell to be miserable for eternity…and the Why?’s adddd up and up. Why is it this way? Why doesn’t God protect those people who are defending his name in the Middle East? Why aren’t Christians protected (and to that I’d get the usual “They are, you just don’t know it” to which i’d say but what about those who definitely,aren’t, who are now dead? If God is all powerful and evil fees from him then why aren’t his followers noticeably protected? Why are they routinely killed, tortured, etc, why doesn’t God show his strength especially if this life doesn’t matter, then why not help his true be;sieverts willing to die for him? It’s see,dad to me the more you believed the less well you see,dad to fare in his world. God no longer talks to people the way he did in the Bible for some reason tho this would undoubtedly go a long way to dispelling the doubt people have that god even exists. But then they wouldn’t have faith. What? What kind of sense does that make in any reason or logic? The justification that Christians make for the lack of communication or protection gets to be pathetic, tho they claim it makes perfect sense. Some even claim God does talk to them, while,others will say he no longer speaks or appears to followers for reasons. So god won’t do something obvious to make his existence known to everyone yet will condemn non-believers to hell for eternity. Right. And yet we are also supposed to pray with all our might for god to save this or that person or bless this or that event so that it comes to pass or to protect all our loved ones, yet it can’t be obvious, tho if it goes the way desired then it’s all due to God and if not then it’s either the non-believer or Satan or not having faith that god would decide to act in such and such a way without being obvious about it because to appear before a killer and say “do not harm these kids” or you know, make the gun disappear or so heavy it can’t be lifted or whatever omnipotent or tiny action would save innocent lives but even tho,he won’t do that he’s definitely there and praying will help make this loving all powerful god notice you and help out because he apparently won’t do it on his own or isn’t aware of it…or maybe he is but you still have to pray for reasons…tho he knows what’s in your heart but you still have to ask. It only makes sense to someone brainwashed from childhood to not question it.
@@saljohn1118You know what’s so funny? I know a lot about the word, and it’s even worse than what they preach in the church. The Bible details a war God bent on having all mortals submit to him and if they don’t he exacts his rage, anger, and jealousy all while killing on a whim. I also know that he created humanity as a project to be exalted and worshipped. I know that he demands his subjects grovel and place their needs below his need to be worshipped. I also know that he creates people that he hates and blames them for being created; e.g., women, gay people, mentally ill people, etc. He demands they beg for forgiveness. There is nothing righteous about forcing subordination through fear and power.
I will give you an “Amen” on that! Makes zero sense. What kind of all powerful God is so needy that he makes beings and demands their worship, fear, and adoration. Sounds kind of insecure to me.
@@jefferywheaton40 Do you fear your government? if not, why you afraid to break the law? You want to have a good police record, don't you?. God as the only holy government in heaven is like any government, he wants you to obey his laws and his commandments or you will suffer the consequences of your own fuck ups.
Jesus gave us two commandments to Love Our Heavenly Father with our whole heart and mind and to Love Others as you Love Yourself 💘 LOVE is the Only Answer ♥❤❤
I believed in god out of fear of hell fire. I found it impossible to love an entity who filled me with terror. Eventually my mind couldn’t deal with it and I became numb. I realised I’d been lied to about god loving me unconditionally. If god loved me unconditionally he wouldn’t send me to hell. So I realised it was all a lie. Sadly, I also didn’t see my fellow Christians following Jesus’s teachings. Love your neighbour, love and pray for your enemies. Do unto others as you want others to unto you. Feed the hungry, heal the sick, clothe the naked, home the homeless, welcome the stranger, visit the prisoner. When you do this to the least of these, my children you do it unto me. By their fruit you will know them. I didn’t see the fruits in my fellow Christians. I left because I couldn’t find Jesus in the church. I like the idea of Jesus because I admire him because he cared about ordinary people’s lives.
I'm new to your channel and really appreciate this interview. There was so much harshness, abuse, and neglect in my fundamentalist upbringing that I only remember a few examples of people (generally elderly women) who were truly kind. When I have to with fundamentalists, on any issue that remotely touches upon their faith, my background stress/anxiety/defensiveness levels crank right up. Dr. Joshua Bowen's presentation is so filled with compassion for his younger conservative Christian self AND respectful of the humanity of evangelicals (while opposing their socially problematic foundations) that I feel I have a new pattern on how I can be in those situations in a more prosocial way with greater mental wellbeing. Thanks to both of you!
what is kind and who determines that, what is harsh and who determines that, you and your feelings, well my are different and I say mine are right and. it yours
@@msilver4888 as an outside observer, the OP spoke with a sense of compassion and human connection. You spoke with a sense of harshness and spite. While there is room for interpretation, the emotional contents of human contact are not completely subjective. We know what vibes people are putting out.
Believers wonder why people are leaving religion in significant numbers. It seems to me the common denominator is “education”. The internet has made the actual historical records about the origins and evolution of both the Bible and the Christian faith easily accessible. That information has always been available it was just difficult to find. The truth is that religious “beliefs” are often very different from religious “history”. This information often addresses the logical, rational, and intellectual problems with the Bible and the numerous common sense issues found in the Bible such as…..if people are saved by “faith” and Grace” not “Works” then why would there be such a thing as the “final judgement?” Such a “trial” clearly indicates a believer must “earn” their final reward. If heaven must be earned then there is no such thing as “grace”. Those are just a few of the obvious examples of the many, many, problems with Christian beliefs and teachings. Don’t read anything written by Bart Ehrman, Robert Price, Karen Armstrong, Elaine Pagels, and many more similar scholars, if you want to remain a Christian.
It's more a question of heresies. Faith gives the goal and the plan, grace gives spiritual help and works is the result. There is no final judgement as such, it's more that some people accept the help and salvations and others don't. So people judge themselves through life and death puts an end to it. There is a special grace in Christianity that comes from Christ's sacrifice. It's what gives the salvation and that is a free gift that is undeserved. On the other hand, you have to accept it and act accordingly, knowing you will fail and need more help along that way and ultimately no matter what you do, it will never be "earned" in the strong sense of the term. Your self-righteousness won't earn you anything unless it's done with the right end in mind, which is Christ. There is no problem in the right doctrine which you can find in earlier Christianity. Historically , it was to help the condemned and the outcasts of society, those who failed or were seen to fail by their tribe. They needed this in the same way people today might need some help if they are in a hole, in depression or something. At the same time, it told them their abusers would not have eternal life because they were righteous and thought they would save themselves that way. Those scholars simply don't understand Christianity because it was never for them.
@@OneLine122 Religion’s are cults that are created by intense and continuous indoctrination to the point of total brainwashing. How else would people believe such utter nonsense?
Im so grateful to be able to share this experience with someone so well versed in the bible. The whole jesus is coming soon mentality has caused so many devastating effect in my family, but im the only one who sees it.
Ironically, maybe, the more I studied the Bible, the further away from belief I became. It seemed so many issues defied logic and common sense, and the priests explained it all with such tortured pathways of thought. They were less and less satisfying. If this is Truth, why is it so hard to figure out? Why are there so many twists and turns of argument to get to what you say is the point? Ultimately I came to view biblical studies as a sort of intellectual game that really had no connection with life. Or with Truth.
I think the more and more people miss the point of the bible. Jesus is In all of the scriptures John 5:39 (KJV) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jesus's birth Micah 5 2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Matthew 2:5 (KJV) And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, Jesus's suffering Psalm 22 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns Jesus arriving In Jerusalem Zechariah 9:9 (KJV) Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Matthew 21:5 (KJV) 21:5Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. John 12:14-15 (KJV) 12:14And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,15Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. Psalm 22 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. 19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me. 20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. 21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns ************************ Psalm 118:22 (KJV) The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner. Matthew 21:42 (KJV) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Psalm 34:20 (KJV) He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken. John 19:36 (KJV) For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. Judas: Psalm 41:9 (KJV) Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up [his] heel against me. Psalm 55 12 For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: 13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. 14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company Zec 11 12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 ¶ And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD Matthew 26: 14 ¶ Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, 15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. 16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him Crucifixion Psalm 22:18 (KJV) They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. Luke 23:34 (KJV) Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Psalm 22:16 (KJV) For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Psalm 22:1 (KJV) [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring? Mark 15:34 (KJV) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 26:54 (KJV) But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? Matthew 26:56 (KJV) But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled. Mark 14:49 (KJV) I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled. Luke 24:27 (KJV) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:32 (KJV) And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? Luke 24:45 (KJV) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, John 5:39 (KJV) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words Acts 2 29 ¶ Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 ¶ For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 ¶ Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ Acts 18:28 (KJV) For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ. Acts 28:23 (KJV) And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening. Romans 1:2 (KJV) (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Romans 16:26 (KJV) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 1 Corinthians 15:3 (KJV) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1 Corinthians 15:4 (KJV) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: Matthew 2:23 (KJV) And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. Matthew 5:17 (KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 11:13 (KJV) For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. Mark 1:2 (KJV) As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Luke 1:70 (KJV) As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: Luke 10:24 (KJV) For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. Luke 16:31 (KJV) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 18:31 (KJV) Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. Luke 24:25 (KJV) Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Luke 24:44 (KJV) And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
Wow there is so much here that resonates with me. Maybe the most gripping piece of content on this channel. I was raised a lot like this and remember believing with a certainty and having faith, etc. And then there have been so many things that made me question that faith and ultimately make the decision that whether it is true or not, that I would not accept this God. What kind of God would allow a person to be tested to the point of losing their faith? A critical moment for me was learning that if Charlemagne doesn’t win a battle hundreds of years ago, that I would likely have been Muslim. And that started me on the path to start questioning everything.
Chrsitianity as it is today is the elevation and practical worship of Paul and im tired of being quiet about that. I go to a bible study where for the last 6 months we have done nothing but stufy letters of Paul. Not commands of Jesus. Not advice from Jesus. Not definitions of what is right or wrong according to Jesus. I geuonely belive most of the men have even read through the gospels, every word jesus ever said could be and HAS BEEN put into less than 2 hours. But Paul talked more so he gets more attention. Please Church leaders everywhere MORE JESUS.
Christianity is not the preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible. Thanks to Paul of the Bible. He sabotaged the whole message of Jesus. The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.” (Caps mine) ****************** Backed up by the preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible.
Do you realize that the ONLY people on the face of the earth who practice and uphold and preach and defend the doctrine and honor of Jesus OF THE BIBLE are the Muslim????? It's an amazing situation really. On each and every fundamental doctrine, Christianity (overwhelming) is AGAINST Jesus of their very own scriptures BUT the Muslim is calling the Christians to go by what Jesus precticed and preached. 🤗 👉 Jesus gave the Trinity-D-EST-RO-YI-NG testimony that THE FATHER (SINGLE PERSON) IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD but the Christians (overwhelming) testify that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (The Trinity) is the true God. 👉 John 4:21-22 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, *WORSHIP THE FATHER* . Ye worship ye know not what: *WE* know what *WE WORSHIP* : for salvation is of the Jews. Have another look: *WE WORSHIP* (The J-E-W na-ti-on INCLUDING ME - Jesus) 👉 “And this is life eternal, that they might know *YOU THE ONLY TRUE GOD* , and Jesus Christ, whom *YOU* have sent.” John 17:3 👉 John 20:17: “Jesus saith unto her, ...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and TO MY GOD, AND YOUR GOD.” Have another look! ".... *TO MY GOD and YOUR GOD* " ME and YOU 👉 *WE* *WE WORSHIP* THE ONLY TRUE GOD - THE FATHER who is THE GOD OF ME (Jesus) and YOU 👉 *OUR GOD* 👉 And Jesus answered him, THE FIRST OF ALL the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord *OUR GOD* is one Lord Mark 12:29 👉 Jesus teaches: “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and *HIM ONLY* shalt thou serve” Luke 4:8. Notice the words: “HIM ONLY.” Jesus did not say “US only,” or “Him and I only.” How could he possibly i it more clear than that? Jesus told to worship ONLY THE FATHER - who is THE GOD of Jesus too. 👉 NEVER preached about Original Sin 👉 NEVER preached that for salvation, people needed to believe that Jesus died (will die) for their sins 👉 NEVER preached that the wages of sins is death 👉 PREACHED that for the forgiveness - NO payment needed, NO sacrifice of Jesus, NO Jesus paid for us 👉 PREACHED that just turn away in sincere repentance and the Merciful God forgives 👉 PREACHED adherence to the comprehensive Law Code as the path to salvation 👉 PREACHED that for certain transgression (like mur-der) on the Law Code, CAPITAL punishment - PUTTING the transgressors to DE ATH - needed to be administered 👉 PREACHED that his followers SHALL IN NO WAY ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN if they do not keep the comprehensive Law Code even better and moreso than the Scribes and the Pharisees 👉 DID NOT eat p.i.g 👉 FASTED and PREACHED FASTING 👉 Greeted with the phrase "peace be with you" 👉 Jesus was CIRCUMCISED. AN EVERLASTING COVENANT IN FLESH for the believers till the end of times 👉 PREACHED that his followers follow the comprehensive Law Code which the Scribes and the Pharisees tell people to follow - that includes oblution / washing of the hands and feet before worship or entering a place of worship Of course the term the Father in the Jewish context. NOT that God has a Son.
The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.” (Caps mine) ****************** Backed up by the preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible.
@@fasted8468 You've talked that you want "MORE JESUS". That's fantastic. Now is your chance to walk "MORE JESUS" by preaching and practicing what Jesus of the Bible preached and practiced 👉 Islam.
It's not really an exit interview of Christians leaving Christianity, it's an exit interview of people who finally realized the truth, that they were not Christians to start with and it was time to move on. Let me explain. To be a Christian is to love God as your greatest love. Take your deepest love you have ever felt for another person and times that a hundred fold. We have all seen people who have left their true love, do these exit interviews reveal someone fulled with remorse, longing and sorrow for having left their true and only love? I've yet to see one. These are more like people talking about a fairground ride they got bored with, than someone who has lost their true love. They never were Christians to start with.
i think there is very little chance of there being god....think about the same percentage as leprechauns or the Loch Ness monster but we can't be 100%....i do think a god is the same as Santa for kids.....i think as one of the most popular religions Christianity is also the most investigated and it fails at every turn we can be 100% that god does not exist..........its patently made up......but death will always exist so in that respect so will religions
I believe that forcing a child to learn all this bullshit, without ANY facts, is child abuse!!! It's bad enough that you are brainwashed, but to do this to a young child and tell him/her they are born with sin, is an unforgivable crime, and you should be prosecuted for it!!! AMEN!! The bible says to pray at home, try that for 100 years! Thank you!
@@I.am.hooked Murder is unjust killing,since God made all ,sustains all and died for all.He thus owns all. Is it murder to kill about 33 million chickens per day as we do in America.In the ultimate sense, we neither created them ,sustain them nor did we die for them,thus we do not own them,wouldn't you say? thanks
@@joman388 so you are saying that, because God created, sustained and died for you, he can kill you. You are not exactly convincing me. Still solidifies that he is a murdered. I don’t think any God died for me, I don’t think any God sustains me, human work and get money to buy food. I don’t think any God created me. If my mom gave birth to me, sustainably me with her hard earned money, and almost died while giving birth to me, does she have the right to kill me? About the chickens, there is something called a poultry, where they are fed so that they can procreate. We are omnivorous animals. We need meat and vegetables to survive as per the laws of nature. We eat animals and animals eat us.
Grew up as a Catholic but left because I didn’t want to attend anymore. The only thing that brought me back to a different Christian denomination was divine intervention. Christ appeared in my dream, and that’s all I Got to say!
@@seismicwhale5371 Are you sure it was Vishnu? I only ask because I did dmt too while meditating to some brain synchronization frequencies and I saw a woman with these very complex wings and hair that felt alive cuz it was moving so much. After the trip I went outside of my apartment to smoke a cig, but my mouth was completely parched cuz I didn't have any drinks in the house and I refuse to drink tap. (unprepared I know) So I'm about to walk to the store when all of sudden this HUGE owl swoops onto my neighbor's balcony and knocks down this perfect, unopened, bottle of water right in front of me. Me and the owl lock eyes, I said "thank you", then it flew off into the darkness. That was about a year ago and I haven't seen that owl since, but after researching into this I can say with about 95% certainty that the being I saw was the ancient goddess Ishtar. Edit: Oh btw later on I did give my neighbor a bottle of water to replace the one I "acquired" that night. 😂
Doc Bowen made a great point I’ve been trying to make for years at this point- If a person could be so convinced that they are a true christian but then one day fall into apostasy, then there is no point in claiming that only “true christians” will never fall away. I think it’s pretty clear that the more sensible christian perspective would hold that one has to remain christian their whole life. If you are baptized in the christian faith, then you are “christian.” Whether you are a good one or a bad one, depends on how you choose to live your life. No need to obsess over it. As for the other stuff, I can relate to being a bit scandalized after years in the Southern Baptist fundamentalist tradition. At one point I was convinced that they were literally the only church that had all the right beliefs, attitudes, and doctrines. It’s like “wow! How lucky was I to happen to chose THE CORRECT christian denomination that has ALL the right answers on my very first attempt! 😂 I am saddened to see these great men falling away so far after encountering the tough questions that come up when you realize that things aren’t quite as cut and dry as they taught us in Sunday school, youth group, or even seminary. As I continue to learn more about biblical skepticism (been watching a lot of Trent Horn as well as Bart Ehrman debates), I don’t find it detrimental to my belief that the Bible is the true word of God. I guess I’m just finding it fascinating how God used human authors to write down what He wanted us to have. I used to think it was an attack when people would say “The Bible is man-made” but now I’m like “yeah, it was written by men… but that doesn’t mean it was not inspired by God.” It’s when you get hammered over and over again that the Bible is the literal Word of God and that if there is even the slightest perceived error found in it, the house of cards fails, that’s when you mess people up. Jesus is the Word (logos). Jesus gave us the Church, and through the Church, the Bible- which took hundreds of years to finalize. I do not think it is reasonable to completely stop believing in God because of some difficult questions about the scriptures. The historicity of Jesus is not really disputed. There are a plethora of miracles that have been recorded that were performed in His name, and difficulties aside, it seems impossible to me that the ancient texts could have been written in way that fit so perfectly together between the old testament and new testament writings over such a long period of time and still do such a good job of presenting a pretty comprehensive narrative.
😮hello there - really nice way to put it - one thing - as you say tough things come from mostly false teachings - false churches -, and false modern prophets - it not the bible or the new testament - or the time between them - jesus warned us of false prophets - most modern day churches that are founded last 150 years are the problem that cause confusion . - them need to be denied and not god you re right about that -
I was raised religious, Jehova’s witnesses family, asked a lot of questions as a teen and got rebuked for it. I got confused about the presence of so many versions of Christianity and wondered which one God favored. As an adult, I tried the Pentecostal and Evangelical, Adventist. None of them answered any of my questions. I stumbled upon a book titled Conversations with God’ by Neil Donald Walsch. It gave me a headache for a few days and turned everything I learned about Christianity upside down. Never went back to religion ever again. I live happier after Knowing that I know squat about the workings of this universe. Why bother, right? Thanks for sharing your experience.
Same here. I was shuffled between Catholic and Presbyterian between my parents, married a Church of Christ Christian, my aunts side of the family are Baptists and husband is the preacher. Searched around (Christianity) never was the right fit. Had a Muslim friend. Realized there is more out there. Never dawned on me! I’m not a Muslim nor will be affiliated with any religion but that was a breakthrough. I am not a Christian.
One reason to bother is its empowering to seek the truth. If you're interested in ancient civilisations at all its fascinating and indirectly shows you where all of the religious concepts came from.
I did not know that Josh has MS. I'm so angry about that. And believers will tell us God exists. I want to scream so badly right now. I hope he has so much love surrounding him.
@@catherinemcdavid1533If your parents could remove all trauma from your life, would they? If you answered yes, why does God (our collective, omnipotent parent) seem to have an obsession with creating sadistic diseases, problematic psychology, and a material world that seems most interested in the annihilation of all life? The god Christians most often claim exists is incompatible with observable reality.
If God is real, that means he purposely created and designed diseases like MS, cancer, cystic fibrosis, rheaumatory arthritis, Chron's disease, it means he purposely made me autustic, he purposely created and designed bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and so many other mental disorders. If God is real in my case, why did he purposely give me Asperger's syndrome and make me lactose and gluten intolerant? @catherinemcdavid1533
What are you talking about? Who said because you believe in Christ your exempt from Diseases and hardships? The Church and the Scriptures teach our life in this world we will have hardships. The believer looks forward to eternal life, not the present. We live in a fallen world. John16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”
Albert convinces Betty that Christianity is true, by explaining and describing his amazing personal experiences, which Betty starts sharing, that tell them 𝙛𝙤𝙧 𝙨𝙪𝙧𝙚 that they've been saved. Albert welcomes Betty to his Christian community. Later on, Albert becomes an atheist. His community rejects Albert, because he was never a true believer, and he was never truly saved. What about Betty? Everything's fine with her? Nobody doubts her? And everybody else? God allowed Albert to be confused about his own salvation, so that he got to Betty, so 𝙨𝙝𝙚 got saved? Nothing weird about that?
As someone coming from a fundamentalist evangelical background, I'm pretty sure this was their solution to the "problem" of women wearing pants to church. If that most unpleasant situation should ever develop, the elders could simply ask the offending woman to wear a paper skirt over their pants, and then God wouldn't be offended. Or the other old people.
@@PrometheanRisingIf you want to enter St Peters and the Vatican in Rome (plus some other churches) and you are wearing shorts they give you some material to wrap around you.
38:39 I felt this way going to the University of Kansas. It’s amazing to me now that “the lions den” is a place where we are challenged to look at all perspectives and to disavow preconceptions. Any good university program will be full of classes that do not teach one particular set of ideas as the absolute truth. That’s beautiful, unless you’re a believer who has been taught that other ideas will seek to lure you away from the truth. It’s astounding to me now.
This was a very great discussion. I can relate so much to Joshua.... I was a Jesus Freak, I was a worship leader, I went on to go from Christianity to Torah Observant Messianic but not adopting Jewish traditions. To now realizing the New Testament is bogus especially when you compare it to Deuteronomy. I have found issues with the Prophets of the Old Testament and have come to understand that the Tanakh was created by Ezra and it is purely Jewish Narrative yet ostracizing the majority of the Israelítes (10 Tribes). I'm asking tough questions about Genesis, I'm hearing what scholars say about the Exodus...so I find myself as Torah only and by that definition, Exodus - Deuteronomy and believe In a Creator whose name is found in Egyptian records and Assyrian records, until I can prove otherwise. As a former Christian, I appreciate how gentle this conversation was in that there was no mocking of Christians as so many anticipate Christians are just uneducated or dumb. I understand that for Joshua he held onto the claim that the Bible was the "inerrant word of God" and then he learned it was a volume of books passed through different hands and that's what likely burst his Bubble, among many other things. Thank you Derek for providing a platform that just discusses facts (or findings) and isn't just bashing people of faith. You are relatable to many who are slowly going through the journey of 'testing all things' and I know none of you have the "The Truth" but you're all coming together to discuss what you all have found and what that possibly means.
I heard this guy talking with Darth Dawkins, maybe half a year ago. They talked for over an hour. I could tell that he didn't really believe the Biblical worldview, just by the things he was saying and his general attitude was very secular.
As someone raised in a secular household, the experience of Josh in that religious context is most revealing, allowing non-believers to understand better the journey they have come to in giving up that deeply held belief.
Dear James, PLEASE Read! The Lord Jesus Christ is Exactly Who He claimed to be! He fulfilled over 350 prophecies written about Him thousands of years in advance. The odds of one man fulfilling just 8 of these by chance is mathematically impossible. The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the most thoroughly documented Fact in all of human history. The Bible is True. You WILL stand before Jesus one day either as Savior or Judge. Having either accepted His FREE GIFT of Eternal Life that He purchased for you with His Blood on the Cross or having said No. God will not take you against yoir will. Love cannot do that. You Know that if God Judges your guilt or innocence by The 10 Commandments you will be found guilty. If you have not been given Gods Perfect Righteousness through believing on Jesus as your Savior your sin will seperate you from Him FOREVER in Hell. There is NO OTHER WAY to get to Heaven. You were born a sinner. You have missed the bullseye of God's Perfect Righteousness. And God is Perfectly JUST to condemn you. He is also Perfect LOVE. The only thing God needed to do to save you was to satisfy His Perfect Justice. So He took your place and Paid in FULL for All your sins on the Cross! John 3:16 is for you! Pray to Jesus today believing He is The Son of God and accepting what He did for You! Time is short. Bible Prophecy is flying off the pages right now! Christians will disappear. They will divide Israel. God's Judgement is coming on this unbelieving world. Get on the boat! 💗
Thank you for sharing your story. I respect your honesty.. I love the fact that your wife is still a Christian and did not flee her faith because you're her husband. She deserves to be honored greatly...
God and Christianity are alive and well . Being a medical doctor, I have witnessed things that science cannot explain and I know in my personal life what God has done for me , more than I could ever explain and definitely more than I deserve . Education does not always equate to wisdom . Peace to all
Something that science cannot explain does not make it magic. An extraordinary claim of a personal god requires proportional evidence. A god that meddles with human affairs is illogical: if this god is capable of interceding, why allow children to die of cancer?
@@knoobiez that’s typically not all that common for people in the medical or science field. Typically people who study science or medicine draw further away from the idea of God so I think you were already heavily Christian maybe before going into it?
Just because people still have delusional fantasies of god doesn't mean we can't hope for better. I also went into the medical field and yes there are things that can't be explained but inserting god is what dulls innovation and stalls future progress it's trying understand the unknown that comes to medical breakthroughs. If everyone just believe in the god delusion we would still just assume that the 4 humors are out of line and bleed people instead of using antibiotics and surgeries. I hope one day you come to reality and can become a much better doctor.
One is only a Christian if he follows a lifestyle according to Jesus' teaching which is Universal. But it is the religion and the church dogmas that corrupted Jesus' teaching thus created all the problems associated with Abrahamic religions.
Isn't it interesting that an omniscient, all-knowing, all-loving god, who supposedly knew before they existed what Adam and Eve would do, did not choose to forgive them, but immediately cursed them and all their descendants when they transgressed? Adam sinned before he even understood the nature of good and evil. He would have been like a little child....no knowledge that what he was doing was wrong. Until after he did it. But he gets blamed anyway and all subsequent generations as well...for thousands of years. If we kept that same mentality, we would still be securing Japanese individuals in internment camps because their great grandparents bombed Pearl Harbor. Penalizing their descendants for the sins of their ancestors. Which god claims he won't do in many places in the bible, but turns around and does all the time. Brandon Collins does several programs that look at that issue in his MindShift series.
@@raysalmon6566oh so you’re the “you never believed” Christian they were talking about. Why is that stance such a common coping mechanism - I mean reframe?
Did he explain how the story of the peleset or sea people broke everything he has fundamentally believed? I didn't seem him to explain what was wrong and what was the thing he can't figure out?
Christianity over time has degenerated because people seek science and knowledge, the stories in the Bible has been proven to be false scientifically. In the uk Christianity is now a minority religion.
@@Cheepchipsable I don’t think the gentleman understands what his youth pastor was saying. Its two of the same coin yes reading it renews your mind but also it’s the holy sprit that applies the word to your life
I watched the whole interview to see if I'll get anything to re-evaluate everything. Did I miss anything? I'm still a Christian. Christianity is a personal journey. If the foundation is flawed and shaky the building will be as well even if you have a PhD
This is just his personal story, nothing more. If you watch some of the documentaries on this channel and others you will hear more objective facts on why this mythology is just that;mythology.
What I think often happens, and this is tragic, is the following: Imagine a God fearing person who has gone to church every Sunday for 40 years. They have paid a huge amount of money in tithes. They have gone to endless Christian meetings and events. This person has raised their family Christian and they are known locally as a lifelong Christian. After, say fifty years of this they have doubts and eventually lose their faith. They are then trapped they CANNOT give up the route they have been on because they have too much invested in it, not just financially but psychologically and socially. Basically the whole of their life. THEY MUST JUST KEEP ON GOING ... too much to lose so they must live a lie.
yes, it's called the Sunk Costs Fallacy, and unfortunately con artists use it all the time. Once they've roped you in with a few thousand dollars, well your only hope is that if you keep going there will be some reward at the end of it all. And unlike some, I don't think religion is all some big con. It's a combination of many things, but part of it is that con, that benefits from exactly what you are talking about. That need for people to believe that they haven't wasted all this time on something. And I get why it's hard to make that break.
It’s never too late to discover the truth. Difficult to do, perhaps, but it’s possible and so worth the effort. I feel bad for the people who never discovered these truths and died living a lie.
Exactly where I was when I lost my ministry job over 10 years ago. I was angry and ready to leave it all behind, but took a hard look at my life and realized, "This is all I know..." So I dove back in until 10 years later I finally self-sabotaged and left it entirely. I gave nearly 50 years of my life, over 20 of if professionally, and now I have nothing to show for it. Starting over in your late 40's is not easy, but it's way better than being stuck in the mental and emotional prison of full-time ministry.
You described my life. But after 52 years of lies, I had to start objecting and facing reality. We must stop the mental abuse of children and vulnerable adults caused by doctrines of fear and damnation.
@@captain_unhinged4372no one knows it’s all been manipulated Jes didn’t even speak the language the Old Testament was written in. It was destined to be a mess from the start.
@@captain_unhinged4372 I believe in existence of jesus and how he died and rose because of the testimony people that witness him and testimony of the disciples of people that witness him. just like I believe in history. I believe he is the best person ever as human and I choose him to my idol.
I grew up Church of Christ, then General Baptist, then Christian Rock Edgy church, then Fundamentalist Baptist (via marriage), then Mormon…..all trying to find what the truth might be because I believed it MUST be out there and it’s ME that isn’t finding it. I learned about evidence and burden of proof, then realized I was pretty much gaslit my entire life. Keep people in ignorance and afraid to ask the questions. Now I am a Secular Humanist - this life is the only I know I have, so I want to make the best of it for myself and others.
The feeling of being special is very powerful. Even the flat earth believers are often in this group, where everyone else is wrong and only our small group can see the truth. I think people instinctively crave attention and will seek it out by any means they can, part of our competitive nature. Some get facial tattoos, others wear loud clothes or get brightly coloured hair, others sell themselves or get caught up in the likes online. We all want to feel significant, but due to the size of the world we really can't be, so people will latch onto anything that makes them feel more unique.
An exceptional episode! The "Monk" argument was a especially interesting. It goes back to Tetullian of Carthage. In the 2nd Century Tertullian used that same argument - the so-called Argument ad Hominem about believing in the resurrection; that if you trust the individual making the claim you're already predisposed to believing the claim itself. Either way, this is one of your best presentations yet.
I am always highly interested in hearing the people that leave a religion, especially if they are very knowledgeable about that religion. I truly support the people that find peace in a particular religion .
Thank you Dr Bowen and Derek. I am currently catching a little h e double hockey sticks for posting something that upset Christian family and friends. I try to prod them along towards reality but it is difficult. Deconversion stories like yours give me inspiration. Thanks again
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People get alarmed when people leave the faith - I don't. There faith has nothing to do with me - it's between them and God. And The Bible teaches that there are many who will fall away - what has that to do with YOU and YOUR faith? If the whole world should fall away - what is that to YOU? You have to know Jesus for yourself. Your faith is what saves you - not someone else's. That's why I don't get it when people get unhinged by some preacher or celebrity who claims to be Christian "falling" or "deconstructing" - 1) this walk, this faith, this God isn't for everyone. Even if they were born and grew up in the church - not all churches are created equal and some people are more religion than relationship, so things happen to them and they fall away. OK, 2) we are spiritual beings having a human experience - the body/flesh is a temporary uniform that you wear that guarantees you certain rights and limitations here in this physical realm. In this physical realm the flesh is prone to sin and condemned to sin because of the fall of man - it makes sense when you think about crime and punishment. If you break the law - you are a criminal and you have certain consequences that are forever altered for you because of that. When Adam and Eve sinned - they broke the law and became, to an extent, criminals. They were told the punishment for their crimes well in advance and that's exactly what happened to them. Not only their circumstances and lives and bodies were forever altered, but their actions created a ripple effect throughout creation. It's done. Now we deal with it. It's like if a drunk driver kills a person - they commit a crime that not only alters their life, but the ripple effect goes far beyond them and deeply impacts anyone related to the people they killed in ways they could never have predicted. So this happened to us as a creation. We are living in the after effects and the ripple effects of sin across the entirety of creation - that's not God's fault, that's ours. He merely told us what would happen - and it did. It's still happening. 3) Christians who "deconstruct" - yes, this is a thing - can be scary to some people because they think it reflects badly on them or God. It doesn't. People also think, erroneously, that "once saved always saved" which implies that everyone who says their Christians are actually Christian (and we know this can't be the case because The Bible warns us against false BELIEVERS). Gotta put your thinking caps on, Christians. The Bible teaches that those who FINISH the race are believers - not those who enter the race or get far along in the race. It stands to reason if you quite the race at any point and time - you didn't finish it, so how can you really be a believer? You were just going through the motions - whether you realized or recognized or admitted to yourself or not. The Bible says if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord - then you are saved. You have then accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. So, obviously (because people don's seem to think things all the way through) that means that you can also then turn around and believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is not Lord for you anymore - and so, then - how can you still be saved? You have rejected Him for whatever reason and however far along in your walk it is. At that point you are not saved and admit you're none of His. And you have the right to do that. Still - has nothing to do with me an my faith. I don't know what life you lived, what you did, what was done to you, what ways you blame God or condemn God or resent God for not doing something you wanted Him to or Him doing something you didn't want Him to do. People have all kinds of reasons for abandoning faith and they rarely, truly have anything to do with God and have more to do with areas they think God didn't live up to their expectations. That's fine - God says His sheep know His Voice and that He will not lose ANY person that truly belongs to Him. These are the last days, people - if you just read your Bible a little bit, you would understand that. There will be a great falling away - just hope that you aren't part of it. Do we all go through times of doubt, unbelief, trials, tribulations, and tests that call our very faith into question - of course. The devil's only job is to steal, kill, and destroy - not just believers, but ALL of humankind as we were created in God's Image. And he's focused and driven - and since we easily forget in whose image we're created - we're easy pickins and low hanging fruit for the enemy. We can look at people who "deconstruct" - with sympathy because that's a whole different level than people who just haven't accepted Christ yet. That's people who accepted Christ and then, for whatever reason, said - "No thanks, Jesus - take Your Blood and Your Grace back - don't need it, don't want it, don't believe it holds any power or value anymore." Those people have no hope anymore - Paul says that you cannot reaccept Christ once you've tasted salvation and rejected Him. He says that's foolishness and dishonors God - and asks, "what, can He be recrucified for you?" No, He can't. So think hard and heavy about rejecting Christ if you are a believer. And if your faith is in crisis - perhaps try drawing closer to God. When we're in crisis - we tend to pull away from God - consciously or unconsciously, but know if you're on this path of questioning whether you believe or not - the enemy has you in his crosshairs and will intensify this moment to push you over the edge. You need God MORE now - not less. Cry out to Him and let Him know the enemy is really gunning for you, but His Word said "no weapon formed against you shall prosper" and that He is a "strong refuse for you - where you can run and Hide" and that "He would fight your battles!". Don't let the enemy win - he only wants to drag you to where he has no hope or escape from. But you have a hope and an escape! I didn't watch this video - what good does it do believers to be constantly looking up people, videos, and content that challenges everything you believe in? The Bible says forsake not the assembling if yourselves together with believers - because that's how you strengthen your faith, not by focusing on people who have no faith. And the bottom line is - what does it have to do with YOU? If everyone on earth should reject Christ - would it impact you or do you know that you know that you know that you're in this "good race" period - whether you're alone or running with a million beside you? You have to believe for yourself alone - no one can influence this walk for you. No one else's faith (no one else's salvation, story, life, victory, testimony - insert whatever you want here) can save you or condemn you - only your own faith can do that. The story is You and God. The rest of it - the rest of us - we're just either subplots or extras.
I was raised Pentecostal and developed an OCD tic of muttering prayers of forgiveness all throughout the day just in case I sinned and didn't realize it.
Penticoastal sucks. They claimed God told them this and that about you but not even anything about themselves when they hid their skeletons in the closet for decades! You don't hear those who judged and said a lot about others' ever approach those preachers and leaders. You can see their hypocrisy.
“I was the nicest horrible person.” That’s the best quote for 2024 so far.
Sounds like phony biden.
important video Atheist Dies goes to H and sees Hitler Bryan Melvin
important video B Commit S And Goes To H touching afterlife
True Christ warns "MY Heart still bleeds because I still see MY Word
(Bible and its commands and commandments) twisted. Because, I do not hear the whole truth. There is only one truth and that’s MY Word(Bible 66 books every verse).
Woe to you pastors and leaders! You drag thousands of souls to hell with you this way! Be free! MY Word (Bible and its commands and commandments)) sets you free! "
"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is in vain for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God." Matthew 15 : 8 - 9
True Christ says "He takes MY Word (Bible Gods Word 66 books) and conforms it as you like to hear it and not anymore like MY HOLY SPIRIT has written."
Remember everyone, each one of us has a different journey and have to search and experience by ourselves
…not by ourselves. Otherwise what is the point? Self-aware, yes.
oh dear. so shocked. that one so erudite. knows his bible. could fall so far. I really. pray for him.
@dorothyfrench2788 You should try doing something useful instead of talking to yourself and imagining it's going to have an effect on someone else. 😢
@@tulpas93 insults instead of adult conversation or sincere valid points.... But you're telling someone else how they should use their time.
The journey may be different, the truth...can only be one.
it's so hard when you are in the bubble, to see that you are in the bubble
The earth bubble 😅
Us believers in Jesus could careless of a bubble. We walk in blinded faith in trust in our savior.
God bless you ☦️☦️
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. There is a real judgment day.
Yep. Blind faihth. Pls keep it to yourself.@@ExMeroMotu9
I love how you let the guests talk as much as they want. Such a breath of fresh air from hosts that are constantly trying to talk about themselves.
important video Atheist Dies goes to H and sees Hitler Bryan Melvin
important video B Commit S And Goes To H touching afterlife
True Christ warns "MY Heart still bleeds because I still see MY Word
(Bible and its commands and commandments) twisted. Because, I do not hear the whole truth. There is only one truth and that’s MY Word(Bible 66 books every verse).
Woe to you pastors and leaders! You drag thousands of souls to hell with you this way! Be free! MY Word (Bible and its commands and commandments)) sets you free! "
"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is in vain for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God." Matthew 15 : 8 - 9
you have it much better explained by Yahweh God himself at our place dan eslof regarding this subject.
Christ says "He takes MY Word (Bible Gods Word 66 books) and conforms it as you like to hear it and not anymore like MY HOLY SPIRIT has written."
As an Orthodox Jew it’s amazing to listen to Christian‘s have such an emphasis on the details of the story that are in the Bible for example, the flood story or the creation story.
Because in Judaism, the details of the story are not important to us as Jews. What is important in the story is the lessons that you take away from the story not the details of the story.
This is because Orthodox Judaism starts off with the premise that the Bible is 100% true and factual, and thus doesn't get bogged down in arguing about the varacity of what is written, but rather focusses on what is being taught through what is written.
I have found that Christians with the same approach to the Bible, who avoid getting sidetracked and arguing about whether 60 cubits is possible or not, accepting that is possible because God said so, are the ones with the deeper understanding of Scripture.
It the old saying, people cannot see the forest because of the trees.
@@broz1488it’s funny, I’ll have Evangelicals ask me “do you believe the Tanakh is the absolute truth” (whatever absolute means) I respond “I do, but I don’t take it literally…” then they they typicall respond “how is that possible?” “The wisdom of G-d is true, the stories that come along with it are to deliver the message. I don’t care whether G-d parted the Red Sea like Charleton Heston did, what was the meaning is what’s important.”
I also find it interesting. Christianity was never standardized. Jesus taught his interpretation of the Torah to an audience of Jews. Paul took it to gentiles who didn’t understand certain concepts, which then he had to adapt, manipulate, or what ever needed to be done in order to get his message across. This is evident in his letter having a gripe with the churches he founded in different areas that had different local cultures and complexities.
Even today Christianity isn’t standardized. Catholics and East Orthodox define the trinity differently thus look at each other as heretics. Protestants look at both of them the same way. Covenant Theology Evangelicals look at Dispensationalist Evangelicals as heretics and vice versa. It’s very odd.
@@jf5177 why is it odd that Christians look askance at each other? Judaism does the same thing. Do you not know how many different ways a bottle of milk can be considered kosher?
Obviously there are parts of the Bible that is to be taken literally, poetically, metaphorically, etc. The wisdom of a Bible scholar is to know where to do this.
I would venture that absolute means with no opposing counter claim or argument.
Thus someone who believes that evolution is true, can never say that he believes that the Bible is absolutely true, not when he is holding beliefs in directly conflict with the Bible.
Next time someone claims to believe that the Bible is absolutely true, ask them if they believe in a 6 day creation, 6000 years ago?
The only possible answer for an absolutist is yes. The Bible doesn't permit any other answer.
Although the gap theory proponents have tried to slip the gap theory in to appease the evolutionist. Which technically doesn't invalidate a 6000 year timeframe.
In your first post you said you were an Orthodox Jew, out of curiosity I look at the picture in your thumbnail, I'm assuming it's your wedding photo?
If so then you are no Orthodox Jew there with your bride dressed like a shiksha. I'm assuming you became frum after your wedding?
It’s weird that one person says it’s because the Bible is treated as 100% true in Judaism.
When what you are actually doing is treating it as wisdom in the form of spiritual allegory, which means it doesn’t matter in the slightest whether or not it actually happened, what counts is if it has wisdom that we can use now.
Also in Judaism, the Bible can be read on four different levels or stages. The simple (or literal meaning), Remez, the allegorical reading through hints and allusion. Derash, the metaphorical reading and Sod, the hidden meaning through the Hebrew text's secret or mystery. In fact the English word mystery has its root in the Hebrew word for to hide.
The acronym for the four readings iss PaRDeS which is Paradise in English.
"A religion that is not self-critical soon degenerates into a self-righteous hypocrisy." ~ Alan Watts.
Christianity is very self-critical and when the scriptures are actually rightly divided - not “Acts 9,” been there - they make perfect sense and offer the world’s only real hope. Anyone who can rationally look at this world we live in and not see the work of an artist beyond all human comprehension is certifiably insane! The human body alone is intricately designed beyond belief - and I’m hoping that the fact that science is altering the very blueprint of life, the genome, will bring the Son of God back to the earth to settle some serious hash! I want to be on the plus side of his return - not the minus! All it takes is a one-time placement of faith in Jesus Christ and his accomplishments at Calvary by accepting God’s gift in Ephesians 2:8&9 KJV - no strings attached; you don’t ever need to do anything else like become a Holy Roller! Be yourself trusting Christ; your sins are already forgiven upfront: Colossians 1:14 KJV and nothing you do or don’t do can take your eternal life - that began the instant you trusted Christ - away from you, Ephesians 4:30 KJV! Just do it.
@@dfkuz
Ephesians, Collosians, Galatians....what are they ?? The words of God?? The words of Jesus ??
@@tikus_pithi1804 They are the God-breathed words of the Holy Spirit translated in the writing style of the inspired writers.
@@dfkuz
Where did Paul say that he was inspired by the Holy Spirit ?? Or is it just your assumption ??
@@dfkuz
Provide evidence
"I was a really sweet, gentle, kind bigot" really resonated with me. My conservative Christian ex-gf was exactly like this.
I stopped on that and sent it to a friend. It really says so much.
I was the nicest horrible person ❤
He has arrived 🙏
It isn’t kind or caring to enable people to sin. It doesn’t matter how loving and compassionate you think you are being, you are simply helping them cause harm to themselves and others.
Just because you don’t see the harm or want to see the harm, doesn’t mean it’s not there.
Don’t agree? Great, then agree to disagree. No need to label someone a bigot because they have a different opinion on morality than you do.
To be honest, an old liberal atheist buddy of mine was the most racist person I've ever met. Conservatism does not equal racism. That's a trope that evidently even former Christians fall for.
@@hamwithcheese586 IT is like you are saying, "It isn't kind or caring to enable people to have bad karma" as though "karma" is real. The same thing with your "sin". It does not exist.
I was not raised as a Christian, so coming to Christ to me was like being given a new life. The only ones I know personally leaving the faith are people that have been raised in it. I listened to this just to grasp why someone would leave and just what he had to say. I am non denominational and believe it’s not about religion but a relationship, and it’s completely changed my life. Like his friend said, he experienced Christ- I have as well, so I will never leave no matter what “information” someone has. When you meet him you just know. I’m not as educated of course as they are, but I will say I did start an Orthodox Christian Podcast hosted by 2 priest (1 with 2 PhD’s and one with 2 masters) who go into the ancient world with a biblical view and they answered so many questions I had about other ancient cultures and similarities. They also go into Enoch, Jubilees, etc and I have to say it’s not only interesting but it’s actually built my faith even more. They are not Christian Orthodox apologist per say, they just share their knowledge. It’s called The Lord of Spirits if anyone is interested.
Are you allowed to study Sumerian tablet translations? Other Religions? You should. Because if you think ANY church on the planet is going to tell you the truth, you are sadly mistaken. GET WOKE.
You are a blind follower not a true seeker of truth. Stop depending on your false created feelings and use your mind to seek the truth.
@@mosaabelgahawy3492 What a load of foolishness.
Christian fundamentalism has produced a lot of atheists, but is that the way the Early Christians understood Christianity?
Agreed, fundamentalism is a 20th century invention.
The early Christians were just trying to figure things out, its really not until the Reformation in the 1500's when everyone was allowed access to a bible in their own language, that it began to open up and become what it is today.
Derek seems to think that Christians who are open to ANE views helping us to interpret scripture are liberals, but that is a bit harsh, since many very conservative Christians accept that we need to include these understandings and be open on interpretation.
With that said, history (languages etc...) which Dr. Bowen is expert in, relies on what we know now, not on what might be discovered later and can never consider the supernatural (for example they have to accept late dates on prophetic literature because no one can predict the future), are often proven wrong later through further finds (consider the dead sea scrolls).
No, most early Christians were Gnostics. The Jewish Kabbalah is very similar to what Christianity was before. Jesus showed up.
@@mcgragor1 I think you are not talking about the same thing as Derek. Derek was simply pointing out the New Testament writers were quoting Hebrew Scriptures ( translated into Greek) in allegorical, metaphorical, and typographical ways. Rarely, do the New Testament writers quote the Hebrew Scriptures literally.
What you are talking about was the state of Western European Christianity centuries after the fall of the Western Roman Empire when the people lost the knowledge to read and write Latin and Greek and therefore could not read the Bible without it being translated into their vernacular language.
Early Christianity was way, WAY worse.
I’m a former Catholic, and I lived with cognitive dissonance from age 15 to 50. Now at 61, I’m so happy to be free from shame, judgement of others and the pain of knowing my life was devoted to a mythology.
I was raised as a catholic but was not born again. God knew my heart and until I became born again as explained by Jesus I did not have a living personal relationship with Jesus. The new birth experience opens one’s eyes as in the words of Amazing Grace “…was blind but now I see…” changes one’s faith in Jesus Christ our wonderful Lord.
How are you free of shame? Are you saying that you had the power to stop doing things you should be ashamed of, but only exercised that power when you became an atheist?
And I promise you, people are still judging you. Every bit as much.
What is your life devoted to now? How do you answer Jesus’s question, “Who do *you* say that I am.”
@@lione1morris620 i was raised born again became catholic and confirm its the same nonsense in a different font.
@@inezaa in that case we have different views of being born again
I always hated the "well you never really believed". These people PREACH that no one knows that heart but God. So how do they know???
Coz if you truly believe, the Holy Spirit dwells in you. You can’t have second thoughts about God if God is in you. There’s no turning back. God is truly amazing. Jesus said “ I love those who love me”. But we have free will, you can choose Jesus or not it’s up to you. Which also shows His great love and affection for us. He won’t force you into anything you don’t wanna do. But remember we’re here for only a short time. I’d rather believe in Jesus than nothing. May God forgive n protect us.
@@fabriceirakoze5020is is force though. If the option is “believe in me or suffer in eternal hellfire” - this is not free will. It’s like holding a gun to someone’s head. This is not free and uncoerced choice.
@@bunny44489It is free will. You have 2 outcomes and you make the decision. That is the ultimate free will.
@@JT-qc2nbIf the supposed "ultimate free will" is an ultimatum forced upon humanity.Then not only is it not mysterious.It's simply not impressive.
@@mannysilver211Ultimatum or not, you still choose, and you're still accountable for it. The outcome of your choice is what counts. I'm a Christian and I choose to believe. I stopped trying to make excuses for not believing when my God has brought me life. It's a miracle in itself. But there are many other reasons as well.
Something that helped me was noticing the difference between rational thinking and rationalizing. Proper rational thinking seeks the truth of the matter. Rationalizing uses rational thinking to preserve a belief. Thinking tends to stop when the belief has been preserved.
Basically, you described confirmation bias. All religion requires confirmation bias in order to sustain itself.
Btw, I prefer the word "dogma" over the word "belief." Belief results from being convinced of something - nothing wrong with that. Dogma is that which is accepted as true but never examined for its substantiation.
@@BigBri550 Link to study?
@@themanape I cannot share links on the comments section of RUclips, but I can recommend the bible study clips in the library of Dan McClellan here on RUclips.
Dan McClellan is a bible expert and religious historian. He critically and concisely addresses all of these topics, and many more. He also fields reactions from his critics on TikTok, and those are shared on RUclips as well.
He is the real deal.
Thats not true. What about me and all the people who chose not to believe in God but finally did?
@@BigBri550 That isnt true. There was a time where I comsidered believing in Buddhism, and other religions but decided on Christianity as my primary belief system. There are people who
became atheist and converted back. It isnt confirmation bias, there are also those who have had profound experiences to cement their beliefs.
It’s so relieving to hear people who’ve been through the same deconstruction I have. It feels good to just say “I don’t believe this” without being shamed. It’s just simply mythology.
I like Dr. Bowen's tone, especially at the end, far more than the host's. I grew up in a liberal mainline church that emphasized what the Bible calls fruit or love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, coupled with the command to be humble, and social justice. I saw those qualities in a number of older members, and the dedication to social justice. I found that inspiring. Maligned as they are, and poorly attended now, maybe, mainline churches were known for scholarship and open-mindedness. Graduates of the finest liberal universities and schools of divinity and theology pastored those churches. They were aware of the oral tradition and how people living in the time of the oral tradition viewed stories, the moral or truths, and storytelling. They understood that Biblical stories were an assemblage of stories passed down for generations and from near and far. They understood that, generally speaking, the story was simply a vehicle of sorts used to carry what mattered, the truth or moral. We believed that ancient people had encounters with God and used every literary device known, every story known, to share that encounter and the truth shared in that encounter. It was only in adulthood, in my university years that I was directly exposed or listened to evangelicals, fundamentalists and people who viewed the Bible as inerrant. That experience caused some tumultuous years. Thankfully, decades later, my faith in God is stronger than ever. It is based on a relationship with God, some personal, vivid experiences with God, a lifetime of being shown where I was wrong and being shown a better way, a better way of thinking, etc. I say better because I am more loving, caring and compassionate than before and, thus, more fulfilled. Like others, I have a long way to go but the faith is central and trust it always will be in my life. The thing that bolsters my faith the most is the freedom that I have gained in becoming more like Christ. Like He said, the truth will set you free. I am not in bondage, as it is put. If one looks around, he sees people looking for significance, meaning, value, and purpose in many, many different places. Personally, that felt like life imprisoned and brought little fulfillment and peace of mind. Many people outside of the faith, those looking for significance, etc. tell me that they feel the same sort of bondage, the same lack of fulfillment. Argue with me and laugh if you will. There is something very real about this Person Jesus. If you read the New Testament with purpose, He will speak to you. If you engage with Him, He will teach you, and help you grow into a peace of mind that is unfathomable.
Are you saying (like most “truth seekers”) that the Bible stories about God killing all the babies, killing Ananias and Sophira, ordering murder of sabbath workers, etc. are all “parables” of some kind?
Was Jesus was just a good philosopher trying to save the Jews from their slavery to Judaism?
Derek, I can't thank you enough for your amazing content and guest interviews. You have been a deeply needed anchor in a very difficult deconversion process. I am forever grateful that you are such an astute leader among truth seekers.
Wow! Thank you so much for that support!
@@MythVisionPodcastI am not religious but I like Richard Carrier I was raised in a Christian family. I haven't been able to study like I should but I like history and these topics are important
@@MythVisionPodcastyall are breaking down the Bible what I think I could be wrong but the Torah is the oldest holy book. I can't read Hebrew I have been away from the Christian church since 2015. It's crazy cause Islam isn't that much different I am a believer in Evolution like Science Earth Science
@@MythVisionPodcastscary times back then because of the Church I'm Black but the Church has been messed up. Money and corruption do they care or is the truth suppressed or hidden
@@TimothyZakariathe people are the church of Christ NOT the denominational buildings, most of which are corrupted for $$$ from Grubberments.
The Bible does warn us about Governments 👿👿
Denominations = Division .. the typical divide & conquer tactic has been going on for 1000’s of years.
Raised Catholic, I believed until I started reading the OT as a young girl. I was shocked to learn about polygamy, women treated as property, daughters sold into slavery, Abraham & other patriarchs impregnating slaves, etc. My mom said “oh that’s the OT.”
But later I learned that the Church still didn’t consider women equal. Thats all it took for me. If God made us, then He’d know women are as smart & capable as men. So clearly God didn’t inspire the Bible & the Church was wrong. And poof, my faith bubble popped.
Because you are not studied enough 😅
??? The histories of the Bible are what happened, not what God wanted to happen. God told Abraham he would make him a great nation. He didn't say, "have a child with Hagar." That was a mistake. Everything else you mentioned works the same way. Take another look at it, and don't ask you mom. Faith is not a bubble that pops. Drop a coin. Do you think it will hit the ground? That is faith. God is the same.
@@TheDrBabaloo Except I can drop a coin and watch & hear it land. God on the other hand, can not be detected by my five senses. For me it is beyond reason to believe in an entity made of non matter! It’s hard line for me as a trained scientist. If you want to see the real miracles of modern life, look to science. They actually investigate, and eschew assumptions & rationalization, relying instead on actual data used to form hypothesis that are challenged in every way possible. If god interacts with this world, it would be surprising that there is zero actual evidence of that. Science has not found giant holes in heir research suggesting a supernatural claims.
Really ? And you never read what Apostle Paul wrote there is neither male nor female but you are one in Christ. You left because you don’t like it is all. Not everyone is saved and gains eternal life
@@waynecolburn8849 That’s not all Paul had to say about women, though, was it? I mean, come on, you chose Paul as an example of how Christianity isn’t sexist? Is this a joke?
As for your belief that god made billions of people, with the intent of only “saving” a select few, that’s a pretty awful belief. The idea that a god would create people he intends to torture in hell sounds sadistic to me.
Also, you are minimizing my experience with that “is all” comment. It sounds like this is your way to minimize the experience of atheists is all. This makes me believe that you have very little knowledge about atheism.
Here’s what apologists get wrong. No one leaves their religions flippantly. No one leaves for fun. It is generally a difficult and painful process, that cost them dearly. Don’t all religious people struggle with faith? Atheists have simply lost that battle, no matter how much they may have wanted to keep believing. It’s like wanting to believe your spouse is faithful, after catching them in the act. Beliefs don’t care about your feelings.
If you want to sum it all up in one package, the only reason people leave the faith is because they no longer believe.
It sounds as if everything you know about atheist came from an apologist. So let me help out:
First most atheist were once believers and most have read the Bible & understand Christianity. People don’t start out trying to destroy their faith. Quite the opposite. Many started by trying to become better christians & grow their faith through a deeper study of the Bible. This is such a common experience that it is often joked in atheist circles that reading the Bible is the first step to atheism.
Secondly, atheist aren’t lying to themselves, they don’t just want to sin, they aren’t angry at god, and they didn’t lose faith because they got hurt or suffered a loss. Most don’t even believe that god doesn’t exist. They simply lack belief in your god.
And about your comment that I left my faith because I “don’t like it”, that suggests people should remain faithful to a religion they don’t like, even if , as in my case, I found it to be immoral. That doesn’t even make sense.
Peace out!
I appreciate his transparency, and his authentic expression of his struggle.
I greatly enjoyed the final two minutes, where Dr. Bowen explains that he agrees that it’s okay for people to have different interpretations of ancient texts. But he disagrees with the fundamentalist approach of believing that your interpretation is the only correct one, by which all humanity should be judged.
I couldn’t agree more, Dr. Bowen.
@@tasmarkou5681Dyer 'is not worth a single bout of flatulence.
@@TheMahayanistwhy
@@TheMahayanisthe can out debate anyone I’ve ever seen
@@countryboyredjust because you can argue well doesn’t mean your argument is valid.
@@tasmarkou5681 all I know is that my exhuband could do rings around me when it came to arguing. But it didn’t mean he was right or that winning the argument made him happy. In the end I got tired of constantly being told I was wrong. So now he’s in his castle being “right” alone and miserable. Even the kids got tired of his schtick.
I have seen many people who spent 30 plus years in Church, thinking they were a Christian, and then were born again.
Ive seen many people spend 30+ years in the church who were born again, deconstruct.
@@chottstuffok.
@@chottstuffso they have no construct now, or a new one?
@@kbw6917White noise.
@@chottstuff leaving a church and leaving God are two completely different things. If anything, being born again is one of the major reasons people leave their manmade church, but never God.
That which is seen, cannot be unseen, that which is known cannot be unknown, that which is born cannot be unborn.
The real problem is when you question, and listen to all the arguments. One day I started listening to debates with atheists and Christians, and that's when I started to realize the strength of the atheist's arguments, and the weakness of Christian's. I was uncertain at that point, so I was just looking for the truth.
The truth is not in our reasoning, debates. Its far from truth
Seminary school is basically where religious scholars have studied all the irrational and contradictory parts of the Bible and produced "workarounds " in order to combat rational thinking. If you think rationally, don't waste your time debating religious people.
@@joejunior1974 rationality has its place if being human in this world, but the issue is that it is fallen world
@@partlysimpson5154
A Tiger can smile
Even a snake can show love
Lies make us evil
I don’t know why this came into my feed but I’m subscribing. This could have been my husband’s story. He even joined the Air Force and his father was a preacher.
Algorithmic marketing has used your public and private texting and your surfing to pick you for this message.
For me I also grew up in the Church with fundamentalist knowledge then became Agnostic during late high School and University (I graduated with a double degree with Robotics and Mechatronics / Business) .This was due having so many doubts in the Bible, I became what you call a doubter or an apostate. But God brought be back, I decided to give God a chance I had nothing to lose, I saw God's love and I accepted Christ again, I decided to get Baptised, God started to answer my doubts. I went through 2 near death experiences and saw God's deliverance, I saw God's power and verification for the Trust and Faith in my life.
Care to elaborate on how god answered your doubts? I cannot make myself believe, and would like God to reveal himself to me to remove my doubts. I was a devout christian for 30 years but got no such revelation.
@@brianvell When I was doubting and was fairly rebellious against God, I had a strange dream where a powerful voice from heaven spoke to me and asked me WHO ARE YOU?, me being rebellious at first didn't respond with respect until I realized I was speaking to God then I repented, We spoke about a lot of things and asked lots of questions, I should've written this down years ago but because I can barely remember now. Then the powerful voice asked me if I believed in His Son, I said Yes , then He gave me something . Then I felt something enter my heart. Then I experienced something extradimensional that was out of this world or the 3rd dimension. Then I woke up then the first thing I thought if that extradimensional thing was the thing the Christians were calling the rapture. There is a lot of supernatural things that happened in my life but will take a long time to type in the comments section. I didn't really seeked or asked for signs from God. I think God will speak to someone or show signs to who He chooses and to glorify his Name but we cannot force God to answer or show signs the way we want to as it is written do not tempt the Lord your God. If your goal is to see a sign from God so that you will believe then there's many Jews who saw and heard and some still doubted and some plotted to put Jesus to death after they saw or heard that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John Ch11). “Behold the proud, His soul is not upright in him; But the just shall live by his faith." (Habakkuk 2:4). Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen(Hebrews 11 ). Most of my doubts were answered in the Holy Bible as that is God's word with guidance by the Holy Spirit. We need to humble ourselves if we want to hear from God. God hates the proud and may harden their hearts even more. If you want God to reveal himself to you, and receive the Holy Spirit, you first must humble yourself, Repent from sin and Accept the Gospel that God sent his only Son to die to pay the penalty for your sins and rose again the 3rd day. Romans10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. " Acts 2:38 “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
"Deluding yourself.". We all do that.
But man, religion takes that to a whole different level.
Great interview.
if you mean "edluding yourself" as in not falling in on all of your desires, then sure, religion does that
Religion does. Politics does in a cult-like Woke way. Extremist ideologies, religious and secular, do.
"Whole different level" is not the exclusive domain of Religion, and I'm not implying that it cannot be fully and fairly scrutinized for any evils and hypocrisies. ( Which is when Religion can be ESPECIALLY bad where any of its adherents fundamentally betray their communities with scandals, abuse, lies. )
I can only imagine that he was pressurised as a child. I found that God was love beyond anything I knew. He is also pure and holy and that is why we need that forgiveness through Christ.
Religion does do that. But everyone seems to have a religion that does this.
The Woke Religion for example, despite being mostly devoid of Theism, has as much delusion as any Theistic religion.
"We all do that." And then you blame religion for it. Which one is it? Make up your mind.
It hurt so much when i had 'friends' who would use the same appologetics we had been taught to try to re-convert me. It pushed me further away from them.
Once the questions and problems start stacking up you can't juat explain them away with 'god works in mysterious ways,' anymore.
Not sure what do your friends mean by mysterious ways but I'd say God is no longer working mysteriously after the cross. He does work miraculously and until He takes away the heart of stone from you and give you a heart of flesh, you can't believe.
You should read “Unseen Realm” by Dr Michael Heiser. Hebrew scholar…changed my life.
The bible says do not rely on your own understanding
Dude spent waaayy more time explaining his analogies and metaphors for how he justified his doubt than he did actually substantively explaining his disagreement with the historical texts and their support of the Biblical narrative. Tells you right there almost what the problem is. Pride.
Dr Josh is an endlessly enjoyable person. So grateful for his time here in the land of the living, and his hard work. He was definitely a key part of my deconversion, and I bet I'm not alone.
there was nothing said in this video that explained exactly what and why he now thinks the bible in full of errors . in fact the main reason he gave toward the end of the video was simply that he was turned off by certain people who said that morality should be legislated . but i say so what , alot of morality is legislated and in our laws by both political parties . stealing is illegal and so is murder and some say that those are based on the ten commandments so not every law based or loosely based on the bible is such a bad thing .
So sorry you were listening the wrong person.
@@tasmarkou5681 I would recommend you speak to my Catholic-Anglican friend. He came to my country twenty years ago and attended temple with me every week. He fell in love with Buddha Dhamma. He abandoned his family, his possessions, and everyone he loved and embraced the life of a mendicant. Now he is an ordained bhikkhu living as a “forest monk” on his way to becoming an arhat (in my unordained lay opinion). You see, we all have our stories. They are just stories.
@@marleonetti7 You saved me an hour of time trying to see what Joshua was talking about. Thanks :)
Religion has stolen stuff from humanity and is selling it to the fools.
This interview was really helpful. I really appreciate the two gentlemen’s thorough and humble explanations of their deconversion stories. As a Christian, I cannot imagine how horrible it must have felt to have others assert that your faith was never real. I am sorry for that. I was initially afraid to listen- afraid my faith could not hold up to this rigor of doubt. I am even more convinced of the truth of Christianity. I am no apologist- but I came to faith through a comprehensive study of history, archaeology, comparative mythology, genetics, philosophy, and as many other sciences and religions/world views as I could find. While my study was outside of formal academia, it took years to finally arrive at a conclusion in my head which was later confirmed by an encounter with Jesus. My advice is this- the westernization of eastern texts can be a tragedy. Attempting to harmonize the gospels results in a loss of so much meaning. The people the apostles were writing to are not “us”. They are not trying to convince “us” of the veracity of the resurrection of christ. Reading without understanding the author, their audience, and the cultural context really makes it easy to miss the layers of brilliance in the writings. I love you both and know that your minds, intellect, and love for reasoning are gifts from God. I pray that you would be drawn to the immaterial- the things that can’t be seen or touched- and that would renew your sense of wonder. This world is not all there is. We are more than flesh and bone. We have a purpose. We have a creator. And He loves each of us. God bless you both. I mean that.
Could it be that some of us are saved by our doubts?
Interesting question. I humbly ask you to elaborate? What do you mean by saved? Saved from what?
I am going through a faith crisis currently, and have been for almost a year now. I have a BA in preaching and an M.Div. But my journey, while certainly taking me out of evangelicalism, is actually moving me towards historic Christianity, either Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy.
What made me leave is sometimes called "rampant interpretive pluralism." Basically, everyone interprets the Bible differently and there's no stopping it. It's absolutley out of control in the Protestant world (a recent estimation is 38,000 denominations worldwide in 2010), but in the other two branches there still exists an unbroken line of apostolic succession through bishops. They have the authority to interpret Scripture and guard Tradition. In both of those branches there is legitimate authority to interpret Scripture and a solid connection to church history. I may be leaving evangelical Christianity, but I would actually say becoming Catholic or Orthodox makes me even more Christian! Lol
Additionally, I have been hit hard by objections like these many times, but this is precisely why interpreting the Bible so literally every single time isn't the way. It's not something the Church has ever done until recently in church history (idk about Catholicism but EO doesn't actually have any official eschatological position besides the 2nd Coming). It places too much stock in man's ability to understand divine revelation (Proverbs 3:5), which comes from a source of unsearchable and infinite wisdom (Romans 11:33-36; 2 Peter 3:15-16). Not even Jesus' disciples understood what He was saying most of the time, but one thing they did understand was that He had the words of life (John 6:68). 2,000 years later, the Church which Christ built through them is not only still here, but it's among the world's major religions with billions of followers around the world. That's a powerful argument that there really is something True even amongst everything that's unclear.
Personally, what keeps me in my faith is my past and present experiences of God. There is no way for me to list everything He has done for me here, but I will say that I have no reason for living if He doesn't have a plan for me. God has given me so much; who else would treat me better or give me more if I left Him? This world is so broken; there's so much pain and evil, if God doesn't exist then why stay in this awful, awful place and live a miserable life?
Have you looked at Unitarian or Quaker groups? Specific evangelical interpretations of the newer disagreements aren't divisive in them. At least in my experience, they're more ecumenical than more common evangelical denominations. Orthodox mystical practices and study are very interesting, but I don't have experience with it.
My sincere question to you is:
Why do you even want to go to interpretations when it comes to the most important subjects?
Why don't you go by the plain, ex-pl-ic-it, unambiguous, clear-cut, razor-sharp, without any room for multiple interpretations or imagination somersaults or mental gymnastics or conjecture contortions preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible?
The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.”
(Caps mine)
One of the names of The Q-ur-an is The Reminder. God Almighty in His FINAL Testament calls the people of the previous scriptures BACK to the straight path - the path which they have abandoned / forgotten / c0rrupted / no knowledge of.
Jesus of the Bible preached and practiced:
1) Who is THE ONLY TRUE GOD?
✅ The Father
(John 17:3)
2) Who is the God of Jesus?
✅ The Father
(John 20:17)
3) Who alone to be worshipped as God?
✅ The Father
(John 4:21)
4) Whose name be hallowed?
✅ The Father
(The Lord's prayer)
5) Whose kingdom come?
✅ The Father
(The Lord's prayer)
6) Whose will be done on earth as it is in heaven?
✅ The Father
(The Lord's prayer)
7) Whom to ask for daily bread?
✅ The Father
(The Lord's prayer)
8) Whom to ask for forgiveness?
✅ The Father
(The Lord's prayer)
9) Whom to pray to for guidance?
✅ The Father
(The Lord's prayer)
10) Who delivers from the e-v-i-l one?
✅ The Father
(The Lord's prayer)
You can then interpret the unclear, in light of the clear and plain and explicit.
You're a reasonable individual. God Almighty gave you the blessing of the brain for a reason. So that you think and reason.
It's of such importance. You reason and you arrive at the truth and when you accept it however bitter it may be, God forgives your sins.
“Come now, let us *reason* together, says the LORD: 🚩 though your sins are like scarlet, 👉 ✅ *they shall be as white as snow* 👈 ; 🚩 though they are red like crimson,
👉 ✅ *they shall become like wool* 👈 Isaiah 1:18
God Almighty does have a plan for you. It's in His mercy and love for you that He DESTINED that all this knowledge of the truth came to you. What you do after knowledge of the truth has come to you is up to you.
@@truthdoesntcomeeasy743also slavery is a common practice still used in the Middle East to this day
I was in training to become a pastor, but ultimately once I took notice how my fellow church members viewed so anyone who wasn't straight, male, cis and white with so much hate and fear, I ended up leaving baptism. havn't looked back. almost been 10 years.
@@mollyjoyo94 proving my case
Nothin like Christian hate😐
@@5StarAlcatraz yyyyup
Very sad! Maybe you werent in the right place! Not everyone thinks like that. Its also a ministerial job to steer people away from baser thoughts like hate.
Why blame God and Jesus for what man does?
Jesus is In all of the scriptures
John 5:39 (KJV)
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jesus's birth
Micah 5
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Matthew 2:5 (KJV)
And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Jesus's suffering
Psalm 22
I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns
Jesus arriving In Jerusalem
Zechariah 9:9 (KJV)
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Matthew 21:5 (KJV)
21:5Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
John 12:14-15 (KJV)
12:14And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,15Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
Psalm 22
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns
************************
Psalm 118:22 (KJV)
The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner.
Matthew 21:42 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Psalm 34:20 (KJV)
He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.
John 19:36 (KJV)
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Judas:
Psalm 41:9 (KJV)
Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up [his] heel against me.
Psalm 55
12 For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company
Zec 11
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 ¶ And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD
Matthew 26:
14 ¶ Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him
Crucifixion
Psalm 22:18 (KJV)
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Luke 23:34 (KJV)
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Psalm 22:16 (KJV)
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psalm 22:1 (KJV)
[[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?
Mark 15:34 (KJV)
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Matthew 26:54 (KJV)
But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Matthew 26:56 (KJV)
But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Mark 14:49 (KJV)
I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.
Luke 24:27 (KJV)
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 24:32 (KJV)
And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Luke 24:45 (KJV)
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
John 5:39 (KJV)
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 5
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words
Acts 2
29 ¶ Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 ¶ For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 ¶ Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ
Acts 18:28 (KJV)
For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
Acts 28:23 (KJV)
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.
Romans 1:2 (KJV)
(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Romans 16:26 (KJV)
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
1 Corinthians 15:3 (KJV)
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Corinthians 15:4 (KJV)
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Matthew 2:23 (KJV)
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Matthew 5:17 (KJV)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 11:13 (KJV)
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mark 1:2 (KJV)
As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Luke 1:70 (KJV)
As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Luke 10:24 (KJV)
For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard [them].
Luke 16:31 (KJV)
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luke 18:31 (KJV)
Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
Luke 24:25 (KJV)
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luke 24:44 (KJV)
And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
The more i study Christianity the more i realise Christianity did not destroy paganism but adopted it. So much pagan retuals and philosophies were borrowed in adopted in the religion. Eat my flesh, drink my blood, wash sins with blood, lots of crap. Made the religion fundamentally paganistic.
Pagan just means "not christian". It's not pointing to any actual groups or specific qualities or beliefs or practices.
Christianity cannot be "fundamentally not christian". Christianity is fundamentally jewish with a smattering of Greco Roman influences. The gospels pull from Greco Roman literature and philosophy. But calling those influences "pagan" would be like calling Twilight a mormon book just because the author happens to be mormon.
Ritual blood atonement comes from judaism. The eucharist stuff comes from Paul who was jewish. None of the things you list come from anywhere outside of the religious context christianity emerged from.
Christians definitely destroyed non-christian groups. A lot of that was through attrition and winning out in various culture wars. But a lot of it was through murdering a whole lot of people too. Heck, one of their favorite pastimes from about 1000 ad onwards was killing other christians. They loved doing that. They may have been and continue to be awful but calling the religion fundamentally pagan is just incorrect on multiple levels.
All of the abrahmic religions are fundamentally paganistic. The roots in ancient hebrew worship was no different than the 'pagan' Canaanite religions that surrounded them. Pagan is really just a tribal term to mean 'not us'.
Tf you are talking about? Judaism itself is pagan and the God Muslims, Christians and Jews worship has pagan origin there is nothing "non pagan" in any Abrahamic religion be it Islam or Christianity.
learn about islam, the fastest growing religion, from a muslim (not the news), and you can ask any questions by joining the livestreams: www.youtube.com/@TheMuslimLantern
@@qwerty-qv1croh, please. They're leaving religion, not swapping.
You don't have to leave Christianity or be a Christian you only have to follow Jesus teaching to make this planet a much better place to live.
Ex-mormon here and I def grew up quite anti-intellectual. I would even say I had a holier than thou attitude as a stay at home mom. (NO SHAME on sahm, just is what my experience was.) And it burned me big time when I chose to leave my marriage. (I’ll have an associate’s degree in May. Yippee.)
Congratulations!!!
An Australian Bishop who is a professional geneticist discovered that no native Americans had any Jewish blood. He became an atheist after about a year.
I'm curious about your anti-intellectual stance when D&C teaches otherwise.
I love listening to Dr. Josh. I grew up in a fundamentalist baptist church. I think my journey out took me a lot longer and did include transitioning to a liberal christian for a number of years but it never felt right. I always had a hard time believing that the Bible had mistakes. Once I realized that there were errors I also realized that I no longer believed.
How could you possibly believe, that the Bible is error free?
Even Witnesses in criminal trials do not have the same testimony about the same incident and actually, when police find that they have the same story, they doubt the veracity of their story .
But hey , join the apostasy of the church which was prophesied in the Bible that you no longer believe in .😳
What errors? Just an excuse.
@@jamiehudson3661Múltiple, such as contradiccions, a Deity who kills a lot of israelites just because king David counted the number of the tribes, ughh that sounds like a toxic relationship, Say love the lord with all your hearth and mind, but no tiene to think about yourself thats insane, besides why does the King James Buble version removes plenty of old testamento books and King James belonged to a Masonic sect? What do i end up at the end?
@jamiehudson3661 you're commenting on THIS channel and you still don't know? 😂
@dmckenzie9281 former IFB?
I relate soo hard with him. I was soo devout, it was all I thought about.
Totally.
maybe you should have led a more balanced life instead of being extreme one way or another.
@@AlexPerazaTVI was never an extremist yet I once believed in God and when I look back now, God sounds like such a ridiculous idea, no matter if you're an extremist or not, once you start to think seriously, religion starts to sound like a load of BS.
learn about islam, the fastest growing religion, from a muslim (not the news), and you can ask any questions by joining the livestreams: www.youtube.com/@TheMuslimLantern
@@RR_theproaholeHow is the Idea of God ridiculous?
I am so glad to find this discourse. I am 70 and have been struggling with "Evangelical Christianity" for 65 years. I was brought up in a church that preached hell ,fire, and brimstone. The preacher screamed and "hollered".The older women rolled in the aisles, showing their petticoats and girdles. This scared me all the time. I was told, if you don't be good, God is going to get you. (Not the devil). During the Afghanistan War withdrawal and then the war in the Ukraine, I got mad at God for the atrocities. I had a Christian counselor at this time and he was a nice Christian. He could talk to me about my doubts, without judging me. Also, I got mad at these same Christians for being extremists and advocating using guns and violence for their Christian Nationalism. I quit watching any mainstream media--my cable TV. I read tons of books on early Christianity, new Findings ( Dead sea scrolls, Book of Thomas, etc., the lost books of the Bible). I read many points of view Tons of Books.. I studied many different religions. I re-read the Bible about 3 times. I was upset, because I wanted to believe like I did at a few times in my life. But it was like telling a kid there is no Santa or Easter Bunny. I was dis-illusioned. I found so many discrepencies (sp) in the Bible. So many horrible stories. I made friends with a male gay person, and realized how some Christians were so mean to him. However, my Mom is a "devout" Christian. I would never tell her I don't believe in the Bible as before. My best friend is Christian--a very mean, devious person. I always tell her she uses saving grace as a free pass to go to "heaven" .Her son tells her the same thing. She is dying and I would not tell her for anything that I don't believe in Heaven anymore. Both women tell me they can't wait to get to Heaven to see their dead relatives. This does not interest me. Mom was a farmer, so Heaven to her is a huge beautiful garden. My boyfriend's, now dead, idea of heaven was all the beer you could drink, but according to Paul he is saved. Sometimes, now, I wish I could believe in Heaven and go around being happy and praying. So, anyway, I am still mad at God. I believe in God as what causes the universe to function, the physics, the math, human achievements, science, the beautiful flowers, trees. A moving force. He also is responsible for the nukes, the child pornography, etc. I wish I could pray to God to help us with all the atrocities, to pray for my brother's cancer, to pray for all the bombings lately. I used to pray a lot. But I don't believe this anymore or the Jewish-Christian God. I don't want to be an atheist. I want to take the best of all religions and have spirituality. I want to believe in trying to be moral and do good. I still love Jesus for the good he did. I wish I had someone to talk to about this in person. So, thanks so much for your point of view!!!
Hey Debra, I just want to recommend RUclips Channels that could help you to better understand (real) Christianity: 'Frank Turek', Daily Dose Of Wisdom, and Cold-Case Christianity.
Now to address some of your points.
You calling a mean devious person a Christian... means that they're not a Christian those they may claim to be. Christians follow Jesus and seek to be more like Him (but we fall short).
Still, by their fruits, you shall know them. That is not AT ALL a fruit of being a Christian filled with the Holy Spirit.
Why are you mad at God?
Is it because of the evil that's in the world? The fact that you can recognize evil points to you knowing that there is objective good out there.
That's a standard that only comes from God(that's why we feel and need to obey it, and when we don't we make excuses or make up a reason why when we do something wrong).
If God exists why evil? Is that you're question?
Evil exists because man is sinful and has free will.
God gave me 2 hands for a reason but he also gave me free will.
God didn't give me 2 hands to lay hands on people and beat up homeless people. They were meant to do good.
So when I do bad I can't say "God made me do it." it was my free will.
I (and sounds like you too) believe that evil needs to be punished and certainly not rewarded. And it will be. The problem a lot of people have is that they say that justice for evil must be carried out... and when in the Old Testament God does that... they question His moral character.
If you have questions, feel free to ask.
To a troubled person, Jesus said "against evil, I made you."
He is responsible for having given us freedom, but we're lazy, and we easily say oh it's someone else's fault.
Wrong. We are responsible.
@@abbedavidbelon1742 yup
@@harveygosal Hey can I recommend to you that all religions are made up and just a pass time for socializations. Humans are animals that have to control others and want everyone around them to believe in the same things. Much like a sport team. We are only here for a limited time.. Well I think theirs Technology that will one store your virtual you..Any ways go out and enjoy the good clean air and scenery that whomever the creator has given US. Msg for Debra also
As a young person, in a similar situation, I would really love to talk with YOU. At my channel I have some contact info
At about 48:00 in, Derick is talking about moving from one extreme to the other. I agree with him. It's moving from an extreme to the middle. I am reminded of the joke about a person walking along and encounters a man who is smacking his own hand with a 2 X 4. The man who is strolling along asks the other, "Why are you hitting your hand with a block of wood? It's gotta be doing serious damage" The other person pauses for a moment in his task and says, "Because it feels so good when I stop." It's not about going from one extreme to the other, its about going from one extreme to neutral. The shift is so drastic that neutral seems like an extreme.
Excellent interview. As an ex-fundie mid-deconstruction and struggling, it was moving and helpful to me to hear how passionate he was about his faith and love for Jesus. Really appreciate that he went in depth about his old beliefs to help refute the "you were never a Christian" mantra. It hurts to hear that when you devoted every aspect of your life to the faith.
What are you deconstructing from, and why does it have to be all or none? Can't you accept the good while rejecting the negative.
He didn't refute it. He merely showed that learning a Christian manifesto off by heart and quoting scripture, doesn't make one a Christian.
He also clearly showed that salvation is not by works. That despite the time and effort he spent being a Christian, if you don't have it in your heart, nothing you do on the outside is of any value.
He in real life provided evidence in support of Matthew 7:21-23.
Unfortunately, people always find excuses so the person leaving the faith has never been a true believer. Surely, some comments will arise claiming this.
@@FluidThinker it is because your understanding of being a Christian is akin to joining the boy scouts.
I joined, got my badges, learnt the songs, put in my community service hours, but didn't like it so I left.
Being a Christian is akin to a love affair, it is you falling in love with God. You don't do things because you fear punishment, you do things out of love because it pleases your beloved. Resulting in one coming to know God on a personal level.
You wish me to believe that a person could be in a relationship with the greatest love of their life one day, and then the next day declare that God the fulcrum of that relationship doesn't exist? Impossible.
Many Christians may reject the church and not attend church, may even be involved in things that they know is wrong, but to take that extra step and declare that God doesn't exist, no Christian can do that, because having had a personal relationship with God, they know such a statement is a lie.
Thus the only ex Christians who can deny God, are those who never had a personal relationship with God, never had a face to face encounter with God, and without that personal relationship bond, can you really call them Christian just because they joined the marching band at Church?
@@FluidThinker this comments section removes posts faster than a crack addict removes scabs.
Thereby depriving you of my brilliant answer.
I went thru a stage somewhat like this, not as extreme but I took it seriously and believed…I even read the Bible front to back in high school…and my questions started. Actually someone else questioned me and that started me questioning Why? As he said, he got beat up, and people get beheaded for being Christian and so on…and the answer I got was that you must be prepared to suffer and die for,your beliefs, that this life is just temporary and doesn’t matter compared to eternity…and yet this life could get you sentenced to everlasting torment for something done out of ignorance, not malice or hatred, but just the misfortune of be ing born in a country that has different beliefs and you are just doing what your parents and society tells you…just like we do about Christianity. The more people would question me about my beliefs the more I realized I didn’t know what I believed and was just doing what other people said I should (and yet few if any did it themselves). I was not okay with people being sentenced to hell to be miserable for eternity…and the Why?’s adddd up and up. Why is it this way? Why doesn’t God protect those people who are defending his name in the Middle East? Why aren’t Christians protected (and to that I’d get the usual “They are, you just don’t know it” to which i’d say but what about those who definitely,aren’t, who are now dead? If God is all powerful and evil fees from him then why aren’t his followers noticeably protected? Why are they routinely killed, tortured, etc, why doesn’t God show his strength especially if this life doesn’t matter, then why not help his true be;sieverts willing to die for him? It’s see,dad to me the more you believed the less well you see,dad to fare in his world. God no longer talks to people the way he did in the Bible for some reason tho this would undoubtedly go a long way to dispelling the doubt people have that god even exists. But then they wouldn’t have faith. What? What kind of sense does that make in any reason or logic? The justification that Christians make for the lack of communication or protection gets to be pathetic, tho they claim it makes perfect sense. Some even claim God does talk to them, while,others will say he no longer speaks or appears to followers for reasons. So god won’t do something obvious to make his existence known to everyone yet will condemn non-believers to hell for eternity. Right. And yet we are also supposed to pray with all our might for god to save this or that person or bless this or that event so that it comes to pass or to protect all our loved ones, yet it can’t be obvious, tho if it goes the way desired then it’s all due to God and if not then it’s either the non-believer or Satan or not having faith that god would decide to act in such and such a way without being obvious about it because to appear before a killer and say “do not harm these kids” or you know, make the gun disappear or so heavy it can’t be lifted or whatever omnipotent or tiny action would save innocent lives but even tho,he won’t do that he’s definitely there and praying will help make this loving all powerful god notice you and help out because he apparently won’t do it on his own or isn’t aware of it…or maybe he is but you still have to pray for reasons…tho he knows what’s in your heart but you still have to ask. It only makes sense to someone brainwashed from childhood to not question it.
You never had a relationship with Jesus Christ. Do you know anything about THE WORD?
@@saljohn1118You know what’s so funny? I know a lot about the word, and it’s even worse than what they preach in the church. The Bible details a war God bent on having all mortals submit to him and if they don’t he exacts his rage, anger, and jealousy all while killing on a whim. I also know that he created humanity as a project to be exalted and worshipped. I know that he demands his subjects grovel and place their needs below his need to be worshipped.
I also know that he creates people that he hates and blames them for being created; e.g., women, gay people, mentally ill people, etc. He demands they beg for forgiveness.
There is nothing righteous about forcing subordination through fear and power.
I will give you an “Amen” on that! Makes zero sense. What kind of all powerful God is so needy that he makes beings and demands their worship, fear, and adoration. Sounds kind of insecure to me.
@@jefferywheaton40 Do you fear your government? if not, why you afraid to break the law? You want to have a good police record, don't you?. God as the only holy government in heaven is like any government, he wants you to obey his laws and his commandments or you will suffer the consequences of your own fuck ups.
@@messiyah4294You are clueless. If you knew the word, you wouldn't be lost.
Jesus gave us two commandments to Love Our Heavenly Father with our whole heart and mind and to Love Others as you Love Yourself 💘 LOVE is the Only Answer ♥❤❤
I believed in god out of fear of hell fire. I found it impossible to love an entity who filled me with terror. Eventually my mind couldn’t deal with it and I became numb. I realised I’d been lied to about god loving me unconditionally. If god loved me unconditionally he wouldn’t send me to hell. So I realised it was all a lie. Sadly, I also didn’t see my fellow Christians following Jesus’s teachings. Love your neighbour, love and pray for your enemies. Do unto others as you want others to unto you. Feed the hungry, heal the sick, clothe the naked, home the homeless, welcome the stranger, visit the prisoner. When you do this to the least of these, my children you do it unto me. By their fruit you will know them. I didn’t see the fruits in my fellow Christians. I left because I couldn’t find Jesus in the church. I like the idea of Jesus because I admire him because he cared about ordinary people’s lives.
I'm new to your channel and really appreciate this interview. There was so much harshness, abuse, and neglect in my fundamentalist upbringing that I only remember a few examples of people (generally elderly women) who were truly kind. When I have to with fundamentalists, on any issue that remotely touches upon their faith, my background stress/anxiety/defensiveness levels crank right up. Dr. Joshua Bowen's presentation is so filled with compassion for his younger conservative Christian self AND respectful of the humanity of evangelicals (while opposing their socially problematic foundations) that I feel I have a new pattern on how I can be in those situations in a more prosocial way with greater mental wellbeing. Thanks to both of you!
That’s a really positive statement you just made. He does manage to bring compassion to disagreement. And your response to that is quite inspiring.
what is kind and who determines that, what is harsh and who determines that, you and your feelings, well my are different and I say mine are right and. it yours
@@msilver4888 as an outside observer, the OP spoke with a sense of compassion and human connection. You spoke with a sense of harshness and spite. While there is room for interpretation, the emotional contents of human contact are not completely subjective. We know what vibes people are putting out.
Believers wonder why people are leaving religion in significant numbers. It seems to me the common denominator is “education”. The internet has made the actual historical records about the origins and evolution of both the Bible and the Christian faith easily accessible.
That information has always been available it was just difficult to find. The truth is that religious “beliefs” are often very different from religious “history”. This information often addresses the logical, rational, and intellectual problems with the Bible and the numerous common sense issues found in the Bible such as…..if people are saved by “faith” and Grace” not “Works” then why would there be such a thing as the “final judgement?” Such a “trial” clearly indicates a believer must “earn” their final reward. If heaven must be earned then there is no such thing as “grace”.
Those are just a few of the obvious examples of the many, many, problems with Christian beliefs and teachings. Don’t read anything written by Bart Ehrman, Robert Price, Karen Armstrong, Elaine Pagels, and many more similar scholars, if you want to remain a Christian.
It's more a question of heresies.
Faith gives the goal and the plan, grace gives spiritual help and works is the result.
There is no final judgement as such, it's more that some people accept the help and salvations and others don't. So people judge themselves through life and death puts an end to it.
There is a special grace in Christianity that comes from Christ's sacrifice. It's what gives the salvation and that is a free gift that is undeserved. On the other hand, you have to accept it and act accordingly, knowing you will fail and need more help along that way and ultimately no matter what you do, it will never be "earned" in the strong sense of the term. Your self-righteousness won't earn you anything unless it's done with the right end in mind, which is Christ.
There is no problem in the right doctrine which you can find in earlier Christianity. Historically , it was to help the condemned and the outcasts of society, those who failed or were seen to fail by their tribe. They needed this in the same way people today might need some help if they are in a hole, in depression or something. At the same time, it told them their abusers would not have eternal life because they were righteous and thought they would save themselves that way. Those scholars simply don't understand Christianity because it was never for them.
@@OneLine122 Religion’s are cults that are created by intense and continuous indoctrination to the point of total brainwashing. How else would people believe such utter nonsense?
It is so wonderful to have documented this brilliant man's personal story.
Im so grateful to be able to share this experience with someone so well versed in the bible. The whole jesus is coming soon mentality has caused so many devastating effect in my family, but im the only one who sees it.
Just to be clear, im not an atheist.
Ironically, maybe, the more I studied the Bible, the further away from belief I became. It seemed so many issues defied logic and common sense, and the priests explained it all with such tortured pathways of thought. They were less and less satisfying. If this is Truth, why is it so hard to figure out? Why are there so many twists and turns of argument to get to what you say is the point? Ultimately I came to view biblical studies as a sort of intellectual game that really had no connection with life. Or with Truth.
The road to atheism is paved with bibles read cover to cover.
The more I read and study the Bible the more I love it!
I find little pearlers everywhere as well as the amazing plan of God from cover to cover
@@JillianKiwireally? What do you make of gods really unsavory actions littered throughout?
I think the more and more people miss the point of the bible.
Jesus is In all of the scriptures
John 5:39 (KJV)
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jesus's birth
Micah 5
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Matthew 2:5 (KJV)
And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Jesus's suffering
Psalm 22
I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns
Jesus arriving In Jerusalem
Zechariah 9:9 (KJV)
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Matthew 21:5 (KJV)
21:5Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
John 12:14-15 (KJV)
12:14And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,15Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
Psalm 22
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns
************************
Psalm 118:22 (KJV)
The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner.
Matthew 21:42 (KJV)
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Psalm 34:20 (KJV)
He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.
John 19:36 (KJV)
For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Judas:
Psalm 41:9 (KJV)
Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up [his] heel against me.
Psalm 55
12 For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company
Zec 11
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 ¶ And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD
Matthew 26:
14 ¶ Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him
Crucifixion
Psalm 22:18 (KJV)
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Luke 23:34 (KJV)
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Psalm 22:16 (KJV)
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psalm 22:1 (KJV)
[[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?
Mark 15:34 (KJV)
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Matthew 26:54 (KJV)
But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Matthew 26:56 (KJV)
But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Mark 14:49 (KJV)
I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.
Luke 24:27 (KJV)
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luke 24:32 (KJV)
And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Luke 24:45 (KJV)
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
John 5:39 (KJV)
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 5
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words
Acts 2
29 ¶ Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 ¶ For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 ¶ Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ
Acts 18:28 (KJV)
For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
Acts 28:23 (KJV)
And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.
Romans 1:2 (KJV)
(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Romans 16:26 (KJV)
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
1 Corinthians 15:3 (KJV)
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1 Corinthians 15:4 (KJV)
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Matthew 2:23 (KJV)
And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Matthew 5:17 (KJV)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 11:13 (KJV)
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mark 1:2 (KJV)
As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Luke 1:70 (KJV)
As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Luke 10:24 (KJV)
For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard [them].
Luke 16:31 (KJV)
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luke 18:31 (KJV)
Then he took [unto him] the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
Luke 24:25 (KJV)
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luke 24:44 (KJV)
And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
What specifically? I'm curious to hear an example.
Great story about the two guys who meet with one finally being called a heretic and pushed off the bridge. That is where we are...
Wow there is so much here that resonates with me. Maybe the most gripping piece of content on this channel. I was raised a lot like this and remember believing with a certainty and having faith, etc. And then there have been so many things that made me question that faith and ultimately make the decision that whether it is true or not, that I would not accept this God. What kind of God would allow a person to be tested to the point of losing their faith? A critical moment for me was learning that if Charlemagne doesn’t win a battle hundreds of years ago, that I would likely have been Muslim. And that started me on the path to start questioning everything.
Chrsitianity as it is today is the elevation and practical worship of Paul and im tired of being quiet about that.
I go to a bible study where for the last 6 months we have done nothing but stufy letters of Paul. Not commands of Jesus. Not advice from Jesus. Not definitions of what is right or wrong according to Jesus.
I geuonely belive most of the men have even read through the gospels, every word jesus ever said could be and HAS BEEN put into less than 2 hours.
But Paul talked more so he gets more attention.
Please Church leaders everywhere MORE JESUS.
Christianity is not the preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible. Thanks to Paul of the Bible. He sabotaged the whole message of Jesus.
The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.”
(Caps mine)
******************
Backed up by the preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible.
Do you realize that the ONLY people on the face of the earth who practice and uphold and preach and defend the doctrine and honor of Jesus OF THE BIBLE are the Muslim?????
It's an amazing situation really. On each and every fundamental doctrine, Christianity (overwhelming) is AGAINST Jesus of their very own scriptures BUT the Muslim is calling the Christians to go by what Jesus precticed and preached. 🤗
👉 Jesus gave the Trinity-D-EST-RO-YI-NG testimony that THE FATHER (SINGLE PERSON) IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD but the Christians (overwhelming) testify that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit (The Trinity) is the true God.
👉 John 4:21-22
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, *WORSHIP THE FATHER* .
Ye worship ye know not what: *WE* know what *WE WORSHIP* : for salvation is of the Jews.
Have another look:
*WE WORSHIP*
(The J-E-W na-ti-on INCLUDING ME - Jesus)
👉 “And this is life eternal, that they might know *YOU THE ONLY TRUE GOD* , and Jesus Christ, whom *YOU* have sent.”
John 17:3
👉 John 20:17: “Jesus saith unto her, ...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and TO MY GOD, AND YOUR GOD.”
Have another look!
".... *TO MY GOD and YOUR GOD* "
ME and YOU 👉 *WE*
*WE WORSHIP*
THE ONLY TRUE GOD - THE FATHER who is THE GOD OF ME (Jesus) and YOU 👉 *OUR GOD*
👉 And Jesus answered him, THE FIRST OF ALL the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord *OUR GOD* is one Lord
Mark 12:29
👉 Jesus teaches: “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and *HIM ONLY* shalt thou serve” Luke 4:8. Notice the words: “HIM ONLY.” Jesus did not say “US only,” or “Him and I only.” How could he possibly i it more clear than that? Jesus told to worship ONLY THE FATHER - who is THE GOD of Jesus too.
👉 NEVER preached about Original Sin
👉 NEVER preached that for salvation, people needed to believe that Jesus died (will die) for their sins
👉 NEVER preached that the wages of sins is death
👉 PREACHED that for the forgiveness - NO payment needed, NO sacrifice of Jesus, NO Jesus paid for us
👉 PREACHED that just turn away in sincere repentance and the Merciful God forgives
👉 PREACHED adherence to the comprehensive Law Code as the path to salvation
👉 PREACHED that for certain transgression (like mur-der) on the Law Code, CAPITAL punishment - PUTTING the transgressors to DE ATH - needed to be administered
👉 PREACHED that his followers SHALL IN NO WAY ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN if they do not keep the comprehensive Law Code even better and moreso than the Scribes and the Pharisees
👉 DID NOT eat p.i.g
👉 FASTED and PREACHED FASTING
👉 Greeted with the phrase "peace be with you"
👉 Jesus was CIRCUMCISED. AN EVERLASTING COVENANT IN FLESH for the believers till the end of times
👉 PREACHED that his followers follow the comprehensive Law Code which the Scribes and the Pharisees tell people to follow - that includes oblution / washing of the hands and feet before worship or entering a place of worship
Of course the term the Father in the Jewish context. NOT that God has a Son.
The religious historian and philosopher Han-Joachim Schoeps says: “Here is a paradox of world-historical proportions: Jewish Christianity indeed disappeared within the Christian church, but was PRESERVED in Islam.”
(Caps mine)
******************
Backed up by the preaching and practice of Jesus of the Bible.
@@fasted8468
You've talked that you want "MORE JESUS". That's fantastic.
Now is your chance to walk "MORE JESUS" by preaching and practicing what Jesus of the Bible preached and practiced 👉 Islam.
@@fasted8468
You made an honest observation. Now is your time to take an honest action. 👍
Come. Let's reason together just as God Almighty commanded.
Dr Josh and Megan are two of my favorites. ♥️
All the this.
I love how Derek does the exit interviews for Christianity 😂
Hallelujah!
He might be getting a kickback from Satan for all these exit videos. 😅
i thought josh was an atheist
It's not really an exit interview of Christians leaving Christianity, it's an exit interview of people who finally realized the truth, that they were not Christians to start with and it was time to move on.
Let me explain.
To be a Christian is to love God as your greatest love. Take your deepest love you have ever felt for another person and times that a hundred fold.
We have all seen people who have left their true love, do these exit interviews reveal someone fulled with remorse, longing and sorrow for having left their true and only love?
I've yet to see one.
These are more like people talking about a fairground ride they got bored with, than someone who has lost their true love.
They never were Christians to start with.
i think there is very little chance of there being god....think about the same percentage as leprechauns or the Loch Ness monster but we can't be 100%....i do think a god is the same as Santa for kids.....i think as one of the most popular religions Christianity is also the most investigated and it fails at every turn we can be 100% that god does not exist..........its patently made up......but death will always exist so in that respect so will religions
Goodness! How unhealthy to be forced to live with such fear and unjustified gilt from such an young age
I believe that forcing a child to learn all this bullshit, without ANY facts, is child abuse!!! It's bad enough that you are brainwashed, but to do this to a young child and tell him/her they are born with sin, is an unforgivable crime, and you should be prosecuted for it!!! AMEN!! The bible says to pray at home, try that for 100 years! Thank you!
Unless it is real, as God should be revered and obeyed. thanks
@@joman388 no thanks. Not a murderer God.
@@I.am.hooked Murder is unjust killing,since God made all ,sustains all and died for all.He thus owns all. Is it murder to kill about 33 million chickens per day as we do in America.In the ultimate sense, we neither created them ,sustain them nor did we die for them,thus we do not own them,wouldn't you say? thanks
@@joman388 so you are saying that, because God created, sustained and died for you, he can kill you.
You are not exactly convincing me. Still solidifies that he is a murdered.
I don’t think any God died for me,
I don’t think any God sustains me, human work and get money to buy food.
I don’t think any God created me.
If my mom gave birth to me, sustainably me with her hard earned money, and almost died while giving birth to me, does she have the right to kill me?
About the chickens, there is something called a poultry, where they are fed so that they can procreate.
We are omnivorous animals. We need meat and vegetables to survive as per the laws of nature.
We eat animals and animals eat us.
Grew up as a Catholic but left because I didn’t want to attend anymore. The only thing that brought me back to a different Christian denomination was divine intervention. Christ appeared in my dream, and that’s all I Got to say!
If I saw mr bean should I follow him ?
I saw vishnu on a dmt trip. What should i do?
@@seismicwhale5371 welcome to Hinduism
@@seismicwhale5371 Are you sure it was Vishnu? I only ask because I did dmt too while meditating to some brain synchronization frequencies and I saw a woman with these very complex wings and hair that felt alive cuz it was moving so much.
After the trip I went outside of my apartment to smoke a cig, but my mouth was completely parched cuz I didn't have any drinks in the house and I refuse to drink tap. (unprepared I know)
So I'm about to walk to the store when all of sudden this HUGE owl swoops onto my neighbor's balcony and knocks down this perfect, unopened, bottle of water right in front of me. Me and the owl lock eyes, I said "thank you", then it flew off into the darkness. That was about a year ago and I haven't seen that owl since, but after researching into this I can say with about 95% certainty that the being I saw was the ancient goddess Ishtar.
Edit: Oh btw later on I did give my neighbor a bottle of water to replace the one I "acquired" that night. 😂
All you had to say❤
Doc Bowen made a great point I’ve been trying to make for years at this point- If a person could be so convinced that they are a true christian but then one day fall into apostasy, then there is no point in claiming that only “true christians” will never fall away. I think it’s pretty clear that the more sensible christian perspective would hold that one has to remain christian their whole life. If you are baptized in the christian faith, then you are “christian.” Whether you are a good one or a bad one, depends on how you choose to live your life. No need to obsess over it.
As for the other stuff, I can relate to being a bit scandalized after years in the Southern Baptist fundamentalist tradition. At one point I was convinced that they were literally the only church that had all the right beliefs, attitudes, and doctrines. It’s like “wow! How lucky was I to happen to chose THE CORRECT christian denomination that has ALL the right answers on my very first attempt! 😂
I am saddened to see these great men falling away so far after encountering the tough questions that come up when you realize that things aren’t quite as cut and dry as they taught us in Sunday school, youth group, or even seminary.
As I continue to learn more about biblical skepticism (been watching a lot of Trent Horn as well as Bart Ehrman debates), I don’t find it detrimental to my belief that the Bible is the true word of God. I guess I’m just finding it fascinating how God used human authors to write down what He wanted us to have. I used to think it was an attack when people would say “The Bible is man-made” but now I’m like “yeah, it was written by men… but that doesn’t mean it was not inspired by God.” It’s when you get hammered over and over again that the Bible is the literal Word of God and that if there is even the slightest perceived error found in it, the house of cards fails, that’s when you mess people up. Jesus is the Word (logos). Jesus gave us the Church, and through the Church, the Bible- which took hundreds of years to finalize.
I do not think it is reasonable to completely stop believing in God because of some difficult questions about the scriptures. The historicity of Jesus is not really disputed. There are a plethora of miracles that have been recorded that were performed in His name, and difficulties aside, it seems impossible to me that the ancient texts could have been written in way that fit so perfectly together between the old testament and new testament writings over such a long period of time and still do such a good job of presenting a pretty comprehensive narrative.
😮hello there - really nice way to put it - one thing - as you say tough things come from mostly false teachings - false churches -, and false modern prophets - it not the bible or the new testament - or the time between them - jesus warned us of false prophets - most modern day churches that are founded last 150 years are the problem that cause confusion . - them need to be denied and not god you re right about that -
I loved this so much. I grew up in dispensational evangelism, too. My father was a preacher. We lived in the parsonage. This was so great.
I was raised religious, Jehova’s witnesses family, asked a lot of questions as a teen and got rebuked for it. I got confused about the presence of so many versions of Christianity and wondered which one God favored. As an adult, I tried the Pentecostal and Evangelical, Adventist. None of them answered any of my questions. I stumbled upon a book titled Conversations with God’ by Neil Donald Walsch. It gave me a headache for a few days and turned everything I learned about Christianity upside down. Never went back to religion ever again. I live happier after Knowing that I know squat about the workings of this universe. Why bother, right? Thanks for sharing your experience.
Denominations are the cause of people leaning on their own understanding
Same here. I was shuffled between Catholic and Presbyterian between my parents, married a Church of Christ Christian, my aunts side of the family are Baptists and husband is the preacher. Searched around (Christianity) never was the right fit. Had a Muslim friend. Realized there is more out there. Never dawned on me! I’m not a Muslim nor will be affiliated with any religion but that was a breakthrough. I am not a Christian.
Have you read the Church Fathers?
@@d.m.3133wow you’ve discovered other religions! Congratulations
One reason to bother is its empowering to seek the truth. If you're interested in ancient civilisations at all its fascinating and indirectly shows you where all of the religious concepts came from.
You two rock! Thanks! ❤❤
I had to stop the video to go watch The Waterboy, and now I'm back to finish the video. 😄
😂😂😂👍
Little girls is the Debbil
I did not know that Josh has MS. I'm so angry about that. And believers will tell us God exists. I want to scream so badly right now. I hope he has so much love surrounding him.
He & Megan also lost a son about a year before they had twins.
Why would having MS mean God doesn’t exist?
@@catherinemcdavid1533If your parents could remove all trauma from your life, would they? If you answered yes, why does God (our collective, omnipotent parent) seem to have an obsession with creating sadistic diseases, problematic psychology, and a material world that seems most interested in the annihilation of all life?
The god Christians most often claim exists is incompatible with observable reality.
If God is real, that means he purposely created and designed diseases like MS, cancer, cystic fibrosis, rheaumatory arthritis, Chron's disease, it means he purposely made me autustic, he purposely created and designed bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and so many other mental disorders.
If God is real in my case, why did he purposely give me Asperger's syndrome and make me lactose and gluten intolerant? @catherinemcdavid1533
What are you talking about? Who said because you believe in Christ your exempt from Diseases and hardships? The Church and the Scriptures teach our life in this world we will have hardships. The believer looks forward to eternal life, not the present. We live in a fallen world. John16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”
Albert convinces Betty that Christianity is true, by explaining and describing his amazing personal experiences, which Betty starts sharing, that tell them 𝙛𝙤𝙧 𝙨𝙪𝙧𝙚 that they've been saved.
Albert welcomes Betty to his Christian community.
Later on, Albert becomes an atheist. His community rejects Albert, because he was never a true believer, and he was never truly saved.
What about Betty? Everything's fine with her?
Nobody doubts her? And everybody else?
God allowed Albert to be confused about his own salvation, so that he got to Betty, so 𝙨𝙝𝙚 got saved?
Nothing weird about that?
Really interesting discussion. Thank you!
Anybody know what "paper skirts at the door" means? Or did I mis-hear that?
I also did not understand that reference.
I’ve spent way too much time thinking about this too.
As someone coming from a fundamentalist evangelical background, I'm pretty sure this was their solution to the "problem" of women wearing pants to church. If that most unpleasant situation should ever develop, the elders could simply ask the offending woman to wear a paper skirt over their pants, and then God wouldn't be offended. Or the other old people.
@@tdhoward I have never heard of that, but I can believe it.
@@PrometheanRisingIf you want to enter St Peters and the Vatican in Rome (plus some other churches) and you are wearing shorts they give you some material to wrap around you.
38:39 I felt this way going to the University of Kansas. It’s amazing to me now that “the lions den” is a place where we are challenged to look at all perspectives and to disavow preconceptions. Any good university program will be full of classes that do not teach one particular set of ideas as the absolute truth. That’s beautiful, unless you’re a believer who has been taught that other ideas will seek to lure you away from the truth. It’s astounding to me now.
Trump wants as policy to introduce a University likened to Trump Uni to counter the “evil leftist institutions”. Trump is pure evil.
This was a very great discussion. I can relate so much to Joshua.... I was a Jesus Freak, I was a worship leader, I went on to go from Christianity to Torah Observant Messianic but not adopting Jewish traditions. To now realizing the New Testament is bogus especially when you compare it to Deuteronomy. I have found issues with the Prophets of the Old Testament and have come to understand that the Tanakh was created by Ezra and it is purely Jewish Narrative yet ostracizing the majority of the Israelítes (10 Tribes). I'm asking tough questions about Genesis, I'm hearing what scholars say about the Exodus...so I find myself as Torah only and by that definition, Exodus - Deuteronomy and believe In a Creator whose name is found in Egyptian records and Assyrian records, until I can prove otherwise. As a former Christian, I appreciate how gentle this conversation was in that there was no mocking of Christians as so many anticipate Christians are just uneducated or dumb. I understand that for Joshua he held onto the claim that the Bible was the "inerrant word of God" and then he learned it was a volume of books passed through different hands and that's what likely burst his Bubble, among many other things. Thank you Derek for providing a platform that just discusses facts (or findings) and isn't just bashing people of faith. You are relatable to many who are slowly going through the journey of 'testing all things' and I know none of you have the "The Truth" but you're all coming together to discuss what you all have found and what that possibly means.
I heard this guy talking with Darth Dawkins, maybe half a year ago. They talked for over an hour. I could tell that he didn't really believe the Biblical worldview, just by the things he was saying and his general attitude was very secular.
Always enjoy Josh’s info and conversations…Great interview!
But you both wouldn’t debate a Christian???
Thank you both for this interview. I share a lot of things with your story, Josh. I relate even down to having multiple sclerosis.
As someone raised in a secular household, the experience of Josh in that religious context is most revealing, allowing non-believers to understand better the journey they have come to in giving up that deeply held belief.
Dear James,
PLEASE Read!
The Lord Jesus Christ is Exactly Who He claimed to be! He fulfilled over 350 prophecies written about Him thousands of years in advance. The odds of one man fulfilling just 8 of these by chance is mathematically impossible. The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the most thoroughly documented Fact in all of human history. The Bible is True. You WILL stand before Jesus one day either as Savior or Judge. Having either accepted His FREE GIFT of Eternal Life that He purchased for you with His Blood on the Cross or having said No. God will not take you against yoir will. Love cannot do that. You Know that if God Judges your guilt or innocence by The 10 Commandments you will be found guilty. If you have not been given Gods Perfect Righteousness through believing on Jesus as your Savior your sin will seperate you from Him FOREVER in Hell. There is NO OTHER WAY to get to Heaven. You were born a sinner. You have missed the bullseye of God's Perfect Righteousness. And God is Perfectly JUST to condemn you. He is also Perfect LOVE. The only thing God needed to do to save you was to satisfy His Perfect Justice. So He took your place and Paid in FULL for All your sins on the Cross! John 3:16 is for you! Pray to Jesus today believing He is The Son of God and accepting what He did for You! Time is short. Bible Prophecy is flying off the pages right now! Christians will disappear. They will divide Israel. God's Judgement is coming on this unbelieving world. Get on the boat! 💗
Thank you for sharing your story. I respect your honesty.. I love the fact that your wife is still a Christian and did not flee her faith because you're her husband. She deserves to be honored greatly...
God and Christianity are alive and well . Being a medical doctor, I have witnessed things that science cannot explain and I know in my personal life what God has done for me , more than I could ever explain and definitely more than I deserve . Education does not always equate to wisdom . Peace to all
Something that science cannot explain does not make it magic. An extraordinary claim of a personal god requires proportional evidence. A god that meddles with human affairs is illogical: if this god is capable of interceding, why allow children to die of cancer?
That's stupid
@@knoobiez that’s typically not all that common for people in the medical or science field. Typically people who study science or medicine draw further away from the idea of God so I think you were already heavily Christian maybe before going into it?
Just because people still have delusional fantasies of god doesn't mean we can't hope for better. I also went into the medical field and yes there are things that can't be explained but inserting god is what dulls innovation and stalls future progress it's trying understand the unknown that comes to medical breakthroughs. If everyone just believe in the god delusion we would still just assume that the 4 humors are out of line and bleed people instead of using antibiotics and surgeries. I hope one day you come to reality and can become a much better doctor.
Man, so many of the Christians in this comments section are BIG MAD.
One is only a Christian if he follows a lifestyle according to Jesus' teaching which is Universal. But it is the religion and the church dogmas that corrupted Jesus' teaching thus created all the problems associated with Abrahamic religions.
@vincelim8292
Sounds like you are going for the "no true scotsman"-fallacy ;)
Not mad, sad. Sinners will have to stand before God some day. You can choose your own path knowing this.
@@JT-qc2nb
You cannot choose your beliefs.
If you don't understand this then I challenge you to believe in Santa. Good luck with that 😉
@@picitnew I choose my beliefs.
Can we agree that most of people who are not a believer anymore are more than obsessed to know the truth? And when they all stumbled it such a relief?
Isn't it interesting that an omniscient, all-knowing, all-loving god, who supposedly knew before they existed what Adam and Eve would do, did not choose to forgive them, but immediately cursed them and all their descendants when they transgressed? Adam sinned before he even understood the nature of good and evil. He would have been like a little child....no knowledge that what he was doing was wrong. Until after he did it. But he gets blamed anyway and all subsequent generations as well...for thousands of years. If we kept that same mentality, we would still be securing Japanese individuals in internment camps because their great grandparents bombed Pearl Harbor. Penalizing their descendants for the sins of their ancestors. Which god claims he won't do in many places in the bible, but turns around and does all the time. Brandon Collins does several programs that look at that issue in his MindShift series.
he left a culture of Christianity,,, he never knew God as a child of God...... dime a dozen story
@@raysalmon6566 "never knew god as a child of god"....what are you trying to say?
@@raysalmon6566oh so you’re the “you never believed” Christian they were talking about. Why is that stance such a common coping mechanism - I mean reframe?
Did he explain how the story of the peleset or sea people broke everything he has fundamentally believed? I didn't seem him to explain what was wrong and what was the thing he can't figure out?
Looks that that was edited out…causing me to go look that up for myself. Curious as well
I was wondering too. What did he find wrong ?
Nothing new ...Christians come and go but Christianity ✝️ will live on forever...hallelujah ❤❤
😂😂😂
Christianity over time has degenerated because people seek science and knowledge, the stories in the Bible has been proven to be false scientifically. In the uk Christianity is now a minority religion.
Christianity is DYING
You are right, the bad arguments for Christianity and the scholarship that proves them inadequate aren’t new.
Sheds light on “depart from me, I never knew you”
“I was the nicest horrible person”.
That hits so hard.
That quote sounds like the voice of shame, now that he is liberal he has arrived, he is shameless. I guess he progressed.
I was told if your Bible was falling apart, then your life wouldn't be falling apart.
How does reading a book change anything?
@@zootsoot2006 It was a bs thing the youth group leaders told us.
Shouldn't your bible be falling apart from constantly reading it?
@@Cheepchipsable I don’t think the gentleman understands what his youth pastor was saying. Its two of the same coin yes reading it renews your mind but also it’s the holy sprit that applies the word to your life
Well now that you say that it’s strange my Bible and my life has fell apart!
I watched the whole interview to see if I'll get anything to re-evaluate everything. Did I miss anything? I'm still a Christian. Christianity is a personal journey. If the foundation is flawed and shaky the building will be as well even if you have a PhD
This is just his personal story, nothing more.
If you watch some of the documentaries on this channel and others you will hear more objective facts on why this mythology is just that;mythology.
“I was the nicest horrible person” brilliant line. The kind of self awareness you NEVER see in the church
Dr. Josh is brilliant but I was disappointed that he didn't do his Kent Hovind impersonation.
He needs to do a Kent Hovind album. Seriously.
Michael S. Heiser’s works & NT Wright’s Resurrection book closes most of gaps mentioned here.
Thanks for good discussion.
Awesome interview! Dr. Josh is so thoughtful and well spoken. ❤
*the stock footage was too distracting for me, but it was a great listen.
Great show! Thanks for sharing your story. Would love to hear more about the origins of the Philistines
They were the children and non direct relatives of the pharoahs. They worshipped horus, isis and set!
Thank you for this, Derek. This was such a good conversation for me to have with someone who shared similar experiences. I really appreciate it.
@@tasmarkou5681 what Orthodox faith do you refer to?
What I think often happens, and this is tragic, is the following:
Imagine a God fearing person who has gone to church every Sunday for 40 years. They have paid a huge amount of money in tithes. They have gone to endless Christian meetings and events. This person has raised their family Christian and they are known locally as a lifelong Christian. After, say fifty years of this they have doubts and eventually lose their faith. They are then trapped they CANNOT give up the route they have been on because they have too much invested in it, not just financially but psychologically and socially. Basically the whole of their life. THEY MUST JUST KEEP ON GOING ... too much to lose so they must live a lie.
yes, it's called the Sunk Costs Fallacy, and unfortunately con artists use it all the time. Once they've roped you in with a few thousand dollars, well your only hope is that if you keep going there will be some reward at the end of it all. And unlike some, I don't think religion is all some big con. It's a combination of many things, but part of it is that con, that benefits from exactly what you are talking about. That need for people to believe that they haven't wasted all this time on something. And I get why it's hard to make that break.
It’s never too late to discover the truth. Difficult to do, perhaps, but it’s possible and so worth the effort. I feel bad for the people who never discovered these truths and died living a lie.
Exactly where I was when I lost my ministry job over 10 years ago. I was angry and ready to leave it all behind, but took a hard look at my life and realized, "This is all I know..." So I dove back in until 10 years later I finally self-sabotaged and left it entirely. I gave nearly 50 years of my life, over 20 of if professionally, and now I have nothing to show for it. Starting over in your late 40's is not easy, but it's way better than being stuck in the mental and emotional prison of full-time ministry.
Sorry to hear your story (above). I hope you got your life back together again. Best wishes Colin L
You described my life. But after 52 years of lies, I had to start objecting and facing reality. We must stop the mental abuse of children and vulnerable adults caused by doctrines of fear and damnation.
I m also a Christadelphian! Praise Yahweh 🙏
Nice story, I believe in Jesus
A lot of peeps do.
It’s ok. We all make mistakes
But do you believe in what Jesus believed in?
@@captain_unhinged4372no one knows it’s all been manipulated Jes didn’t even speak the language the Old Testament was written in. It was destined to be a mess from the start.
@@captain_unhinged4372 I believe in existence of jesus and how he died and rose because of the testimony people that witness him and testimony of the disciples of people that witness him. just like I believe in history.
I believe he is the best person ever as human and I choose him to my idol.
I grew up Church of Christ, then General Baptist, then Christian Rock Edgy church, then Fundamentalist Baptist (via marriage), then Mormon…..all trying to find what the truth might be because I believed it MUST be out there and it’s ME that isn’t finding it. I learned about evidence and burden of proof, then realized I was pretty much gaslit my entire life. Keep people in ignorance and afraid to ask the questions. Now I am a Secular Humanist - this life is the only I know I have, so I want to make the best of it for myself and others.
i'm an ex-JW, we also cherished the idea of being a minority, why does our brain work like that?
The feeling of being special is very powerful. Even the flat earth believers are often in this group, where everyone else is wrong and only our small group can see the truth. I think people instinctively crave attention and will seek it out by any means they can, part of our competitive nature. Some get facial tattoos, others wear loud clothes or get brightly coloured hair, others sell themselves or get caught up in the likes online. We all want to feel significant, but due to the size of the world we really can't be, so people will latch onto anything that makes them feel more unique.
Ethnocentric tribalism.
so now what did he join catholicism then?
Is there anywhere that his wife Megan talks about her faith? I would love to understand better how she holds onto theism.
I suspect her “faith” has grown closer to reality and moving away from doctrines of man, interpreted by men, taken from man-made books?
Excellent interview and an outstanding guest in Dr Josh he along with Drs Kipp and Bart you have the 3 of the new horsemen of the apocalypse.
An exceptional episode! The "Monk" argument was a especially interesting. It goes back to Tetullian of Carthage. In the 2nd Century Tertullian used that same argument - the so-called Argument ad Hominem about believing in the resurrection; that if you trust the individual making the claim you're already predisposed to believing the claim itself. Either way, this is one of your best presentations yet.
I am always highly interested in hearing the people that leave a religion, especially if they are very knowledgeable about that religion.
I truly support the people that find peace in a particular religion .
Thank you Dr Bowen and Derek. I am currently catching a little h e double hockey sticks for posting something that upset Christian family and friends. I try to prod them along towards reality but it is difficult. Deconversion stories like yours give me inspiration. Thanks again
Can I ask why you didn’t write “hell”?
@@robinharwood5044 To sound funnier
@@geraldmeehan8942 Fair enough.
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@@qwerty-qv1crI slam is a lie from Satan
The only pertinent question this entire video; did the dog die?
Another one: why would someone wear yellow bowtie?
Well done Dr Bowen. Its incredibly hard to confront brutal reality but honesty is always better than clinging to delusion. Such bravery.
People get alarmed when people leave the faith - I don't. There faith has nothing to do with me - it's between them and God. And The Bible teaches that there are many who will fall away - what has that to do with YOU and YOUR faith? If the whole world should fall away - what is that to YOU? You have to know Jesus for yourself. Your faith is what saves you - not someone else's. That's why I don't get it when people get unhinged by some preacher or celebrity who claims to be Christian "falling" or "deconstructing" - 1) this walk, this faith, this God isn't for everyone. Even if they were born and grew up in the church - not all churches are created equal and some people are more religion than relationship, so things happen to them and they fall away. OK, 2) we are spiritual beings having a human experience - the body/flesh is a temporary uniform that you wear that guarantees you certain rights and limitations here in this physical realm. In this physical realm the flesh is prone to sin and condemned to sin because of the fall of man - it makes sense when you think about crime and punishment. If you break the law - you are a criminal and you have certain consequences that are forever altered for you because of that. When Adam and Eve sinned - they broke the law and became, to an extent, criminals. They were told the punishment for their crimes well in advance and that's exactly what happened to them. Not only their circumstances and lives and bodies were forever altered, but their actions created a ripple effect throughout creation. It's done. Now we deal with it. It's like if a drunk driver kills a person - they commit a crime that not only alters their life, but the ripple effect goes far beyond them and deeply impacts anyone related to the people they killed in ways they could never have predicted. So this happened to us as a creation. We are living in the after effects and the ripple effects of sin across the entirety of creation - that's not God's fault, that's ours. He merely told us what would happen - and it did. It's still happening. 3) Christians who "deconstruct" - yes, this is a thing - can be scary to some people because they think it reflects badly on them or God. It doesn't. People also think, erroneously, that "once saved always saved" which implies that everyone who says their Christians are actually Christian (and we know this can't be the case because The Bible warns us against false BELIEVERS). Gotta put your thinking caps on, Christians. The Bible teaches that those who FINISH the race are believers - not those who enter the race or get far along in the race. It stands to reason if you quite the race at any point and time - you didn't finish it, so how can you really be a believer? You were just going through the motions - whether you realized or recognized or admitted to yourself or not. The Bible says if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord - then you are saved. You have then accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. So, obviously (because people don's seem to think things all the way through) that means that you can also then turn around and believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is not Lord for you anymore - and so, then - how can you still be saved? You have rejected Him for whatever reason and however far along in your walk it is. At that point you are not saved and admit you're none of His. And you have the right to do that. Still - has nothing to do with me an my faith. I don't know what life you lived, what you did, what was done to you, what ways you blame God or condemn God or resent God for not doing something you wanted Him to or Him doing something you didn't want Him to do. People have all kinds of reasons for abandoning faith and they rarely, truly have anything to do with God and have more to do with areas they think God didn't live up to their expectations. That's fine - God says His sheep know His Voice and that He will not lose ANY person that truly belongs to Him. These are the last days, people - if you just read your Bible a little bit, you would understand that. There will be a great falling away - just hope that you aren't part of it. Do we all go through times of doubt, unbelief, trials, tribulations, and tests that call our very faith into question - of course. The devil's only job is to steal, kill, and destroy - not just believers, but ALL of humankind as we were created in God's Image. And he's focused and driven - and since we easily forget in whose image we're created - we're easy pickins and low hanging fruit for the enemy. We can look at people who "deconstruct" - with sympathy because that's a whole different level than people who just haven't accepted Christ yet. That's people who accepted Christ and then, for whatever reason, said - "No thanks, Jesus - take Your Blood and Your Grace back - don't need it, don't want it, don't believe it holds any power or value anymore." Those people have no hope anymore - Paul says that you cannot reaccept Christ once you've tasted salvation and rejected Him. He says that's foolishness and dishonors God - and asks, "what, can He be recrucified for you?" No, He can't. So think hard and heavy about rejecting Christ if you are a believer. And if your faith is in crisis - perhaps try drawing closer to God. When we're in crisis - we tend to pull away from God - consciously or unconsciously, but know if you're on this path of questioning whether you believe or not - the enemy has you in his crosshairs and will intensify this moment to push you over the edge. You need God MORE now - not less. Cry out to Him and let Him know the enemy is really gunning for you, but His Word said "no weapon formed against you shall prosper" and that He is a "strong refuse for you - where you can run and Hide" and that "He would fight your battles!". Don't let the enemy win - he only wants to drag you to where he has no hope or escape from. But you have a hope and an escape! I didn't watch this video - what good does it do believers to be constantly looking up people, videos, and content that challenges everything you believe in? The Bible says forsake not the assembling if yourselves together with believers - because that's how you strengthen your faith, not by focusing on people who have no faith. And the bottom line is - what does it have to do with YOU? If everyone on earth should reject Christ - would it impact you or do you know that you know that you know that you're in this "good race" period - whether you're alone or running with a million beside you? You have to believe for yourself alone - no one can influence this walk for you. No one else's faith (no one else's salvation, story, life, victory, testimony - insert whatever you want here) can save you or condemn you - only your own faith can do that. The story is You and God. The rest of it - the rest of us - we're just either subplots or extras.
Jesus the beginning and the end 👑 ExMuslim
I was raised Pentecostal and developed an OCD tic of muttering prayers of forgiveness all throughout the day just in case I sinned and didn't realize it.
Penticoastal sucks. They claimed God told them this and that about you but not even anything about themselves when they hid their skeletons in the closet for decades! You don't hear those who judged and said a lot about others' ever approach those preachers and leaders. You can see their hypocrisy.