As a primary league player but whom has regularly also played multiple MOBAs simultaneously (League for 10+ as its the game i started with, Dota 2 for 5-6 and Smite/HotS/Battlerite 3 years or less) , I agree with the choices of examples given about league champions and their complexity, but IMHO there is no contest here, *_Dota 2 is obviously no doubt the more complex_* when comparing these two games - - firstly Dota 2 as a game simply has *_way more levels of interaction_* in the game through *_mechanics_* and *_game elements_* - in dota you can effect and interact with the trees, the altitude and the high-ground - low-ground leverage, attributes, day and night cycle just to name a few - where as in league your character can only affect yourself, your allies, the enemy and the immediate field and terrain in rudimentary ways - secondly is the Dota 2 micromanagement system as mentioned at the start of the video, League literally has no proper micromanagement elements in the games infrastructure, everything you do is controlled and managed through the single character you play and their Q-W-E-R abilities and that's it - due to the lack of micro elements the game has only handful of characters with the ability to summon additional units, and they are either on full auto-pilot, their positioning can be controlled with rudimentary mouse-click + ability cast commands or you can just guide the focus of their action pattern with a simple spellcast - Dota 2 is just far more complex in terms of infrastructure - and Dota 2 has a whole subset of characters with playstyles based around this infrastructure that doesn't even exist in the other game - thirdly, Dota 2 due to it's more complex nature of its mechanics and ways to interact with the game, has also *_hard-counters_* and *_counter-mechanics_* to completely nullify your interaction and/or impede you from interacting with the game in a specific manner, thus limiting or simply denying certain options - League doesn't have these sort of hard-counters or ways to nullify and/or impede you from interacting with the game - so effectively any character can still beat any another character, the circumstance is simply askew one way or the other - and the best characters are the ones whom are the most flexible and simply have the most mechanics available to them, or have most options with the mechanics available to them, which is why the modern champion design in league is detested by many, because the newer modern characters simply have way more mechanics implemented into their kits, thus giving them more options, and these options cannot be stopped or denied from them - where as older champions simply have to compete with less mechanics and interactions available to them
Nevermind the absurdity of item builds in DotA2. Items alone make or break how effective you are. Whether it be stats, sheep stick, BKB, Blink, or even just 6 Rapiers. DotA is a game of madness where League is, generally, a more consistent experience. Side note: RIP AD Veigar.
@@MrGetItIn Honestly, after talking with a couple of the riot balance team devs, they are convinced that you don't. That's why there's so very few active items, and even fewer still will be added. Also, why there's huge limits to stuff, such as being allowed only one mythic, only one type of potion, only one type of boots and so on... There's an intentional push toward less complex items, since the champs are already as complex as intended.
@@MrGetItIn Well... yeah. But hey, if you want a more complex league of legends, come try dota! I'll coach you, no problem if you want! I coack a LOT of league players trying out dota, it's a hobby.
i love the concept of Invoker , ever since my childhood in D1 . He has been one of my favorite hero designs across gaming. He’s a mage but you feel like an actual mad mage playing around with him and fiddling with the elements for different spells
@@alvinquezon5973 yes, and I'm still wait for the time he came back at his 27-skilled version (in which some are needed to be tweaked) either as a new hero (True Invoker or some flashy name) or as a boss in an event
I belive morphling deserves a spot too among the complex heroes. Since he has to manage his atribute shift, also press items, not mentioning he can morph into other enemy heroes and gain their basic spells and if you want to play high level morphling u have to use all of that.
Viego is kind of like morphling, except copying enemy heroes requires getting a kill or assist, plus he has multiple dashes as opposed to just the one. Morphling is more complex than viego, but viego is harder to play (since he requires a kill just to get his copy going)
@@TZAR_POTATO I didnt play that much lol to say but i know what hero your talking about and even tho they are similar morphling still has to manage his stats to deal decent damage while keeping himself alive so in my eyes morphling is much harder. But its an opinion and i think its hard to judge what is harder and what easier.
@@TZAR_POTATO I'd disagree tbh, like Viego has that skill ceiling of playing every character but the reason to do that is usually very rare, most of the time you use kills to ult reset and use it way more often as that instead of actually playing those champs. Viego's base kit is very powerful and incredibly easy as opposed to Morphling who is always one stun in agility stance away from being instantly killed as well as being incredibly focused around that stat switch decision as opposed to Viego who just charges at someone gets a stun does insane damage with max health damage because he always buys BORK without question it is his item. He is far more simple and easy I believe.
@@TZAR_POTATO there is no way viego is harder to play than morphling, wtf all you do with viego is w in auto attack finish with ult, not that hard. For morphling there are a lot of mecahnics to abuse your atribute shift and actually mastering it during laning phase.
Brewmaster used to be simple, only his ulti is a long text but not really complicated. Now thought they keep adding stuff to his passive skill making them as long as his ulti. Back then passive only get critical hit now he a living disco ball
I love it so much his old passive was 40%ms then 20% slow + crit it was good but not great and then they went "we really want to lean into the elemental spirit side of this" and gave him separate stances representing each spirit with different effects but you primarily spend it in wind stance and earth stance depending on lane matchup, in extended trades use fire and when chasing switch between wind and void, wind for the ms and void for the slow on attack, if you feel really spicy you can mix fire into that for a chance at a crit. AND THIS IS ONLY HIS E. His Q is super simple, his W is decently simple too, his ult is pretty much just run people down early game, primarily focus on your earth brewling for that stun on q, he now has q displacement on void brewling where it does a magnus charge but it used to just aoe disarm. His wind brewling is where all the brain goes, as it has 3 spells, a purge removing buffs, a euls scepter and an invis which does extra damage on exit. I won't go into detail but the aghanims is just spawning one of your brewlings outside of ult. Honestly feels crazy that he's so unpopular because I don't think he's actually as difficult as people think, he's still difficult but nowhere near the most difficult in the game.
I feel like brew is one of the most noob friendly complex heroes in the game... His kit requires knowledge yes but overall he can be played at a low skill floor... just gotta learn what his spells do and with some basic micro skills like tab switching he's pretty much good to go I've thought of brew as being insanely complex when I first saw his kit but after playing him he's surprisingly easy and intuitive to understand... Atleast compared to most of the tier 3 complexity heroes
I would argue Bristleback is the single most braindead character in any MOBA (which is ironic since his Int gain is really high) His entire gameplay is spamming Q and W off cooldown and right-clicking, and his highest skill expression is facing away from incoming damage
Ah, the sub 2k speaks. Bristle is less about running blindly, and more where. He can make or break games depending how he reacts to the hero’s in the game, what they buy, and where they position when. On the surface he’s brain dead, in truth, his positioning in a fight and item interactions and choices decide in anything which a half competent team.
@@markjacobs3232 I'm pretty sure "reacting to heroes ingame accordingly", "buying the right items for the occassion" and "position well" applies to every single hero in the game His actual mechanics are still 2 button spam and 2 passives
@@MAMAJUGO A fair point, but different hero's have more or less reactions and items to both build, and beware of. Juggernaut can over extend for little cost, but try the same with Sven and your gonna have a bad time. The hero's unique kits and mechanics are what results in different styles of play and builds.
I think it's important to mention Arc Warden. He's not Meepo-tier difficulty, but I think the fact that to be effective with him you need to juggle not only 6 heavily conditional abilities across two heroes, but swap fluidly between their items as well in a game where you NEED to use item actives, is worthy of discussion. Throw in the fact that his base damage and base stats are pretty pathetic and that he needs to make it to the late game to shine, and I think he fits in the higher tiers of both mechanic and macro complexity. He's not Meepo, but he's also not easy.
Not to mention a rubick with agha needs to be alert when enemies on clash uses his ulti so he can copy it and use it as counter. Also some honorable mentions like morphling, bane, chen, enchantress, ember, void spirit, earth spirit, storm spirit and brewmaster and puck
I would personally say, when it comes to difficulty/complexity, Earth Spirit is also really high on the list. The reason for that being, he's basically impossible to play effectively without using directional movement. That means, you push down a button you bind for directional movement and click to move to a direction instead of a place. His first ability kicks someone or something (any unit and Stone Remnant) into the direction he's facing, not a direction you choose, you choose the thing, not the direction (except Stone Remnants, you can aim those). He also has the Stone Remnant ability that puts down Stone Remnants like Syndra does with her orbs, but he kicks, magnetises them to himself, uses them to propell himself further and uses them to increase his potency of his ult (for the simlicity of things, I'll just say it does damage over time and it does more things with the Stoen Remnants and more damage with the Stone Remnants). TL;DR: The hero is about spacial perception and execution. I literally had to get used to a unique finger positioning just to play that hero somewhat.
O yeah ES Void Spirt and Storm spirit are all about combo spells but ES is realy a mess, i aways forget what the heck i was doing when i toss my first combo spells and bam u can do 2 more spells :D
I think it's kinda unfair that you dont include items. Dota items are basically spells and all the good items have actives. Take a hero like Tinker, Arc Warden and Puck with Octarine, it so drastically changes their play style that it's hard to view said hero with out items. Oh yeh, there's also aghanim and refresher orb Edit: u know what, i get it, see you in next video :))
Its easy to tell that he's biased when it comes to LoL. and a complexity two hero brewmaster is at the last bit he has little knowledge on dota 2 from what Ive seen on the video
At least you can read what Dota heroes do in client (no matter how complex), sucks that I have to go to a third party wiki to find out how much damage my spell does in League.
and if you get magic amp it even calculate how much dmg will do after altho you have to hold ALT while hovering over the spell to gives you the updated numbers
@@markjacobs3232 good god. The average player can barely string skywraths combo together using only his spells and one active item. Do it too fast and people think your using scripts lmao
Me, before trying Invoker against bots: All I gotta do is memorize the spells. I think I can use a specific set of spells to start. Me, during team fights against bots chasing me: *panic presses every button, only to end up repeating the spell, the spell is in CD, or pressing the wrong button*
As an invoked player it gets surprisingly easier. It becomes less “oh no what’s what” and more I need x y and then z, and you just hit the buttons. Only issues when you Mia click an orb and “oops that’s a frost wall” but then you just work with it. As intimidating as he seems, practice is really all it takes. If it makes it easy, my warmup with invoked when starting to play after while is using a select few spells at first, then adding the less useful ones later.
I don't play League, but I think the subtleness of the hero mechanic can also mix in. Like Puck and SF, seems pretty simple, but if you're a mechanic god, you basically can always outplay in trade. Batrider reducing turn rate. Environmental advantage, as managing night time as NS, Slardar running on water, etc. I dont know but maybe LoL has some unique to them too
Oh but they are! There's a LOT of dota crybabies complaining about this or that hero not being in the video, when the vid is already very long! There's also people complaining that I didnt show items, when I have three other videos about items exclusively!
@@TZAR_POTATO still relatively tame, this the same for league players when they complain that their champ didn't get a skin from riot just keep doing what you're doing!
I think one of the biggest differences between Dota and League is that Dota is more item and build-based. For every Summoner Spell in League, there is an item in Dota that does more or less the same thing. Plus a ton of items that come with active abilities and pretty much change the core of a hero. I hope if you ever revisit this topic you should definitely talk about builds, among other mechanics like Fortifying structures, the Courier, last hit denies, Aghanim’s, day night cycle.
As a tl;dr, League's champion complexity is higher on average, but Dota's hero complexity has further extremes. There is nothing in League that is as braindead as a Skelly King, Phantom Assassin or Viper and most picks require some tryharding, but then again Dota has some mindbending stuff like Meepo, Invoker, Oracle or really high execution picks like Earth Spirit, Brewmaster, Arc Warden etc.
I disagree that League dont have any champion like the simpler ones in Dota 2, that's just because League has a default of 7 abilities, but if you take a look at champions like Garen, Yummi, Trundle, they are braindead easy
Bro what are you on about, oracle is not hard at all. PA is not a braindead hero, she is not hard but braindead? She was more braindead in the past i will give you that
You also forgot Rubick - he has one stun (Which also allows him to throw his enemies in different directions, doubling both as a target and area stun), a fade bolt which deals damage and weakens a hero, and a passive which increases all of his cast/item ranges and spell damage. But he is also capable of stealing the last ability an enemy casts, meaning technically he can have between 13 to 23 spells during the game (Oh, and his aghanim allows him to steal two spells at a time and also upgrade them, and although you don't take any items into account, it is a major difference in terms of gameplay) But i think it's not fair to title this as a "hero complexity" comparison, because even the most simple heroes of dota will be significantly more challenging when you mix items and general game situations, two things you did not cover here. And as you've said, complexity does not equal to game being worse or better. In the end, you can play casually in either and still find success
disagree. all 3 basic skill of rubick is easy to understand. his ulti to steal other's ultimate is quite hard but Lol also have sylas steal ultimate too, and viego even copy 3 basic skill
@@jackolevious8308 he doesn't steal ultis, he steals the last used skill, so you can easily steal some dogcrap skill like Furion's treants or something, Rubick is hard not because of the skills, but because you have to remember a lot and also understand where and when should you be when there's a battle
I just love both of them. Dota is the more complex one which is obvious. League fights are like Martial Art. So beautiful. Especially my girl Irelia. Dota is more like a chess. More about decisions and timing. But I just play Mobile Legend. Game is easy af. Everyone is bad. I can have fun for like 15mins. It just makes me feel a little better when I miss games like this 2. Sometimes, I watch videos about Dota2 and LOL so I can feel a little bit of it.
I feel you. I switched from dota to league just because of the time input required. Evenly matched games always extend beyond 1 hour in dota without the surrender option and most games end by 45 min. While in league the lengthiest games do not ever cross 1 hr mark with most games over by 30 minutes. Really thinking about shifting to mobile legends for that shorter match duration
I really like this comment. I agree with it, both have their place but when everything is considered the complexity question is easily answered. Both definitely have their place and both are definitely skillful and engaging games.
as a dota player I can say in dota difficulty has very low interaction with complexity because most of the times hardest heroes are not the ones with biggest kit but the ones that has to always be in the right place at the right time to do anything like Drowranger a hero with relatively simple kit but supper hard to play at mid to high bracket. and with my small experience in lol i can say its true for lol too for example Vayne.
Vayne and actually most of adc in LoL is hard to play. Not cause of heroes themselves but because you need to position yourself correctly. Vayne is especially hard cause she has a little bit lower AA range. Yes, you have your Q with invis while ulting but still you can get blown up if you catch 1 CC in 5v5.
I would only really consider summoner spells a part of the champion complexity in a case where there is special interaction. Most of the time flash will simply be used to create/close distance and ignite is a simple click for some extra damage/heal reduction in an all in. However for a champion like for example lee sin where more complex use of flash in the form of insec plays are a core part of playing the champion i think its fair to consider Flash a core part of the champion complexity. It is essentially the difference between playing earthshaker with or without blink dagger.
Then, my including it was a success! Honestly, I thought of adding that section with normal scroll speed so people can sort of read at least ability names and see pictures... but it lasted for over a minute so I had to speed it up dramatically or people would get bored.
1 [In my personal experience League is built on the premise of being easier. It's not only faster mechanics and faster particles, with less delay, less punishing mechanics, but League is more meta reliant (meaning that the game actively punish you for playing off meta, in a way that you aren't suppose to).] 2 [Picking some basic example, in League you can't go 2-1-2 (meaning 2 person top, 1 mid and 2 bottom), nor 1-1-3, 1-1-1 and 2 jungle, not that those strategies are common place, but you can develope those things and win in Dota as trilane or with 2 junglers. The point being that even in the most basic rule of gameplay such as: How many people are in one lane per game? Can change with great variety depending on the team. In League that is fixed and anything else than 1-1-2 + 1 jungler is trolling or a game breaking problem (remember people picking supports top and then roaming the map taking advantage of bounty systems and gold/xp catch up system). Other example is that you could totally not level up an ability if it was too resource intensive or not worth the early investment, something that would be also trolling in league. League is really more fixed than Dota in that regard. I'm not mentioning also the other main point, champions classes and subclasses. In dota functions exists, but champions are so unique that how they play is radically different and the impact they have in the game is huge. Whereas League, you want a tank to soak damage, an adc to deal damage, a support to peel the damage dealer, the assassin to burst squishy targets, and someone to engage. There used to be more type of compositions but were dropped in favor of faster and more damage oriented type of gameplay (the mentality being that if the enemy is dead then I can finish the game sooner) and you probably want to pick S tier champions as they stomp everything else and if you can't, well you pick the next similar thing that isn't banned and does everything the S tier does but a little worse. In dota as said, there is meta, but team composition/counterpicks, and the unique nature of champions make it harder to be as cookie cutter. ] 3 [In my opinion, Dota skill ceiling is higher than League, but League is meant to be more mainstream. Big disclaimer: You should play whatever game you enjoy most regardless of complexity either way.]
@@baptistecochennec5956 thank you for your question. However I do not care in persuing any content related to league. Hope you can answer that question in your own using logic and other resources available. Cheers!
I think it's worth mentioning that complexity =/= difficulty to play. For instance, I love high mobility nukers, like timbersaw, ember, storm and tinker. While these heroes are more mechanically intensive than something like a sven let's say, I am way better with any of these heroes than I am with right click carries like Sven. Having a lot of fancy tools means you have a lot of options. I'm used to playing heroes that can easily engage and disengage the fight, so when it comes time to look at the enemy hero, look at my hero and estimate who is stronger and then manfight it out I am relatively bad at it. Something like sven actually requires a shitton of skill to play well, you need to position yourself to not get kited, you have one stun so better use it at the right time, you need to decide when to press your long cd abilities, and you need to gauge whether it is time to back or go in well in advance, because if you decide to backout too late you will just die, because you have no real escape. Your options are limited, and so you need to make every action count. Point is, while invoker may be more complex than say a phantom assassin or something, it is equally difficult to play them properly at a high skill level. Think for instance how hard it is for Sven to kill a puck, and how easy it is for puck to run away on 2% hp if Sven miscalculates even slightly.
I think it's unfair to compare the complexity of the character's spells and abilities without taking into account the greater complexity of the game in which they are and consequentially of how they are played. You put Naga as below average, but a good naga player has to farm both lanes as well as jungle. I don't think that's less complex than having to trigger combos using your spells while your camera is set on your lane and your 1-2 opponents for most of the time.
@@TZAR_POTATO of both games, i play both, i like them both, know both, but it would be cool for you to make a video or 2 about it, lol and dota 2, and yes, i am willing to pay, just not insane amounts lol
I really think you did justice to the analysis given your methodology for the comparision. I would have loved to see your general opinion on the length of that complexity line when all things are considered simultaneously (items, junhle auras nd abilities, summoner spells, map size, interactive map elements like altitude and trees, dragon spirits and souls, shelly, etc
But then you are just comparing "which game is more complex" though, and it goes back to the two things I said at the start, is it mechanics, or skill ceiling, or what? Like, dota's macro gameplay is way more complex than league, because you have a more dynamic map with a lot more use cases aside from "wall hides me but i can hop it" stuff, and you got a more active jungling meta in the midgame. But league has more weird champion designs, and two objective kills, that are clear winning conditions and worth fighting over, while roshan can be varied, like, you can choose to not fight at the rosh pit because you have a better chance in high ground defense 5v6 as opposed to cage match 5v5 at the pit Lots of factors, would be a way too complicated video for a simple hobbyist like me to do.
Great vid, been playing dota and was curious about lol but i never rlly liked how there werent as many active abilities or items in the game, and thw fact tht champs were locked behind a paywall Rlly wished u covered a lot more of the heroes/champions tho, but in the end it was still nice
Interesting video, that's wanted from a discussion from a long time 🤔 also, would love to be coached/play games with you xp (not exactly new, but not pro either) also, good video as always nwn
As an invoker user, I'm proud of myself that I can cast all skills in a clash. I tried to play LOL around 2016-2017 since most of my classmates in first-year college played LOL but after 1 year, the game became so easy that I got bored and returned to Dota. Not bragging or being cocky but it is what it is, I have fun playing LOL but Dota is on another level on complexity
Dota's complexity comes from its simplicity. Like Vengeful Spirit is a pretty straightforward hero: stun (Magic Missile), lower armor + attack damage, (Wave of Terror) increase attack damage of teams (Vengeful Aura), and swap hero/enemies position with herself (Netherswap). On paper, this is a pretty simple hero to grasp. However, who you stun, when to stun, who to lower armor/attack damage, and who to swap are all what makes her a complex hero. Swapping to save your teams from enemies makes her one of the strongest heroes in the game. Her sacrificial nature makes strategical usage of her spells very important, and she can turn the tides of battle (swap to save your team from a Skywrath Mage + Faceless Void combo), as easily as she can fuck them up (swap in enemy Tidehunter or Magnus and set up their wombo combos for them). League makes their spells complex by adding needless complexity. Vengeful being leaguified would be that her Magic Missile only does damage, and does not stun unless target is affected by Wave of Terror first. Yes, it adds complexity, but for not much reason.
I like the mention of Ogre Magi in the dead-simple catagory. As his (their?) kit literally revolves entirely around RNG (their ult is a passive called Multicast that allows their spells to cast multiple times for increased effects, with the chance for higher and higher multicasts per level in the ult (up to 3x casts at max rank!!!))
Now every single dota hero has an innate ability and 2+ facets, and remember this is only the base hero, because if we are talking items too then around half of dota 2 heroes get a new ability from aghanim's shard or aghanim's scepter or both :D
If you include summoner abilities, you must include items. Dota's items are far more complex than LoL and thus gameplay on most heroes is far more complex than you suggested. Wraith King for instance will always have Armlet and Blink dagger and probably BKB. Dota spells are much more high impact, high cooldown, meaning timing is everything. League is more low cooldown and forgiving.
OP didint include items because he wouldnt be able to compare complexity. LoL would look like building sand castle on a sunny day in a sandbox while Dota as building a fucking spaceship in an open space.
@@Bdrbs cause you missed the point, summoner spells are still spells when considered, adding a blink dagger to a wraith king will not make him more complex inherently as a hero than a malphite building abyssal mask for more damage, items are their own thing and they add amplifications and modifications to your heroes, which will defeat the purpose of the video if you included it within that context cause it won’t be about “just the hero complexity” anymore
@@yuhan4469 except what you said simply isn't true for Dota, so well, if you have not played the game, don't talk like you know it. Having a blink dagger is like having a super flash on a 13s cooldown, and you wouldn't need to play dota to understand how massive having a long range flash would be for a hero who has as much mobility as a tractor like Wraith King. Say, if League has an item that give Garen or Darius a jump as far as a Zac (and without the wind up), would you still say those champions will play the game the same way as before? Items legit completely change how the hero approach team fights in Dota, unlike the modifications and amplifications you see in League. Not to mention, abilities in Dota is upgradable, and it's far more ridiculous than Khazix Evolutions or Viktor Cores upgrade. With Aghanim Scepter Wraith King Ultimate gain a passive aura that kept his ally alive for 8 sec after their demise, allowing them to continue casting abilities (like an aoe Karthus passive). Can you still say items doesn't make his kit different after hearing that? While I do agree including items would create too many variables to make a comparison video, the method Potato used to approach the problem is far from perfect, and people criticism of that is justifiable. Personally, while I admire his attempts, Dota mechanics are so inter interactive that I doubt they can be discussed separately like that.
I know you didn't include items but with items Arc is gets 2nd place for sure. Honestly he should be considered the most complex hero in Dota. The amount of brain power and skill you need to play him is nutty 2 hero's 4 active spells And atleast 3-4 active items
his spells are really simple, and i didn't include items. If i did, yeah .he'd be up there for sure. I did mention why items weren't in the chart, hopefully you understand. I intend to do a video on items later on. If items were factored, lone druid, arc warden, dazzle, and tinker would all be bonkers level
@@TZAR_POTATO I think if you're to mention summoner abilities you should mention dota's items because they act in a similar way; by providing extra utility that's not in your hero's kit.
@@HomemadeCoconuts Summoner spells do act like items, just like items can act like spells. Difference is, items are what you purchase in the game, and builds vary all the time. You can also sell and adapt items, while summoner spells are locked in and available at level one.
Same thing with Tinker. Tinker and Arc Warden have very simple spells that are easy to grasp. But they're two of the hardest heroes in the game to play. Much harder than Brewmaster for example, assuming you know everything he does and have decent micro. Meepo also fall into this category somewhat. His abilities are pretty simple like Tinker and Arc, but he's very hard to execute with.
you also forgot about tinker, the spirit heroes (yes all four), Terrorblade (a good terrorblade is 100% up there on the complexity chart) and many others, but still this video was extremely enjoyable to watch!
Don't forget Rubick! He has 3 actives to start, then he can steal any spell from any enemy hero. So in any given game, he has 3+5*4 possible abilities to be using for 23.
Granted Sylas can only steal an ultimate, whilst rubick can steal any active spell that the enemy hero recently use. I'd like to argue against the fact that Sylas can just point and click an enemy hero then take their ultimate, while Rubick needs to wait for that chance to get the specific spell that he wants.
I find it interesting how both games take different approaches to adding complex wrinkles. Dota (for the most part) has simple heroes. Their kits are simple, and execution often involves point and click. By contrast, league champions have (generally) more demanding kits. Even for simple abilities like "press q to do damage", you have to land a skillshot to execute it. Both games character kit complexity defines their itemization. Because league has complex characters with a ton of red flags the developers have to pay attention to (executes, resets, etc.) Its difficult to add an item like DFG and make it balanced in that environment. By contrast, because dota has simpler abilities it allows the items to be more complex. Some of my favorites are refresher orb (reset every cooldown. If you had summoners in dota you'd reset those too) and blink dagger (flash on a 15 second cooldown, full screen length). I play both and I dont have a preference; they're distinct systems and I enjoy them equally but in different ways.
dota's abilities most of the time are not focused on how to use them , but when and on which enemy , for example blood seeker , his active ability that make silence should NOT be cast a random enemy , you should pick an enemy that rely on abilities like death prophet ,zeus , or arc , or his ultimate , you should not rush in using it , only when the enemy is retreating Another example is oracle , but im too lazy to explain him
@@ajdndbdjbdj new oracle is a LOT simpler than he was when his W always gave both effects. You still need to consider timing, but I can't remember how many games were ruined because oracle decided to disarm their own carry
Despite the quite lengthy hero wiki page Brewmaster has, I'd argue he's the most complex hero of that final list you put (Invoker, Meepo, Chen, himself and Lone Druid), but also the least mechanically demanding of the lot. It boils down to him basically having almost every mechanic you mentioned in the video, plus he has a stance system. His stances mostly affect which passives he gets at the time, which are also linked and affected by one of his spells, so he also has spell combos. His ulti turns him into an RTS player, because he now has several units to control, each with their own spells, but they are always the same spells, which most of them are point-and-click or have a very generous Area of Effect to work with. And this state is temporary, so he's still less mechanically demanding than Chen. If anything, in a hectic teamfight, I think it's actually more difficult to keep track of which stance the Brew player is in at the time, than actually playing the hero.
As an immortal brew main, i can confirm that he is nowhere near as difficult as meepo, but still can be very tricky to use all the spells properly during tf (since they all have low cd plus being in diff units)
Yeah brew is a very good example of complexity =\= difficulty... All ud need for him is knowledge on his abilities and just some basic micro skills like tab switching and ur good to go... His stance system can decently function with just 1 stance the entire game like storm which gives evasion and mov speed which is generally good all round... Although yes maximizing the heroes potential is whole other thing I would also like to highlight kunkka as sort of an antithesis to brew master not necessarily as a "two sides of the same coin" deal but more of a "similar sides of two different coins"... He has quite a simple kit to understand and with a low skill floor to pick up and play but his skill ceiling is potentially limitless with players like attacker who does the craziest shit with the hero
I’d say it doesn’t really make any sense to include summoner spells but not items. Blink being a summoner spell in LoL and an item in DotA means this list skews toward LoL being more complex in some regards. You can’t really separate items from the complexity of heroes/champs
@@TZAR_POTATO Next up make a video about which game is easier to play with a blindfold, this will surely help people decide which game is more complex or better.
I think this may be your league experience, but some of the hero you mentioned are actually kinda complicated. In league, complex hero means press button fast and have many button. Like that shield dude you showed that blocked the path, that’s like low level ability complexity in dota. That’s really just Kunkka shard (he’s got 6 disables), and kunkka isn’t a hard hero. My reaction was just that the shield dude blocking the path is just kinda a normal interaction for a lot of dota hero lol. In dota, complex heroes have skills that require lots of game knowledge and macro gaming, not just micro. Invoker is just hardest league hero, but it’s in dota so each of those spells can just kinda do what that shield guy did in terms of play potential and game impact. Deafening blast + ice wall for example, does pretty much the same thing. Meepo isn’t the hardest character in the game cuz of his crazy micro, he’s the hardest cuz he has the craziest micro and the craziest macro. Dota is a very long term game, and pretty much every macro decision you make as Meepo can take a dump on your game. You gotta know every hero and every matchup and every item he builds intimately because you’re gonna change your build a lot depending on the game. Wraith King is mechanically simple, but I don’t think he’s brain dead. Not only is he a carry, so messing up like twice can screw the entire game over; but he’s balanced around his ultimate being so strong. Walking at heroes and clicking right in dota is much harder than it sounds, especially on a hero that has no skills to help him do that like WK. Still not hard or complex, but even he is deceptively complex when you actually gotta use him due to his drawbacks. In dota, naga is a fairly complex hero to play optimally, you’re essentially playing a single player RTS tower defense game to choke the life out of your opponents over the course of the game and having the most impact with the least interaction. It’s hard to call many heroes “brain dead” in dota, just cuz of how complex the game is. Having simple skills can actually be a detriment, as more complex kits are more complex BECAUSE of how deep they are strategically instead of mechanically. Void Spirit is a hero with simple skills but very high strategic execution because his simple spells quite simply give him *options* and not just more buttons to press.
There yah go, nuf said hahahaha every hero in dota2 needs some fkn skills to use on a high skilled game, even the stpd IO now needs some good positioning and skill timing plus items 😂😂😂😂
@@freyrkratos I would say the fact that Io is so absolutely useless outside of being a floating status effect and heal to your carry makes them pretty difficult lol. And yeah, her ultimate requires planning and coordination to get the most out of it
@@angelhuamani9753 I have no idea what that means. And yeah, I agree, Meepo is harder than Invoker. Invoker is just an example of a hero with a ton of play potential in their moves. Almost every single one has a ton of utility and variability in it
Check out Heroes of the Storm heroes: Chogall, the twin headed orge: 2 players in one body. Cho controls legs, Gall throws skillshots. Battle Mage raid boss Abathur: main body hides in base, infest ally globally, ultimate transforms into allies Deathwing: big dragon, permanently immune to enemy crowd control but also cannot be buffed/healed by allies. Literally raid boss Murky, the murlock: Fixed death timer at 8seconds, revives from his egg that can be placed anywhere Medivh, the cheater: makes allies invulnerable, creates portals, stops time, transforms into an immortal bird for vision Samuro, illusion blademaster: Meepo but only 1 does damage. Swap positions with your illusions at will. Multiple invulnerability frames The Lost Vikings: Meepo, but 3 vikings. Tank, waveclear, scout
Although you said that you do not take into account items, I would still like to note the anti-mage with his unrealistic timings on which his game depends. And I also think that the skymage earth spirit and similar spammers are also not easy heroes, because it's one thing to just press the buttons, and the other is to press them in less than a second and again + items
@@nouashax__ "Nothing more simple than AM" on paper. In reality you have to manage farm, timings, splitpushing, blinks, counterspells, etc. Every hero has his own difficult to master mechanics.
@@sabnock31 what u are saying are things that is generally to all heroes. Especially heroes that has high mobility, like AM, NP, Ember, void spirit, etc. As a hero, AM is basic. Thats it
Item is the important part in Dota, heroes can play 2-5 different roles that is the fun part, you pick the support and go adc and it'll work depending on the talents and items.
It’s a tricky comparison- include everything and it gets messy. Things like turn rate and art school rate and how much they link to spells, items etc. I played league (one who shoots Mira a ultimate but global - Ashe?) and did quite good for first game. My first Dota game was a catastrophic 😅. But all in all both are good games. Ngl tho league got some basics from Dota 1 right? 👀
With the Dance Dance revolution Draven, CoD Aphelios, and RTS Chen. I wonder what game genre mechanic are DotA and LoL gonna add in their game. I'm sold to which ever can add an Ace Combat and Armored Core mechanic in their game.
Also as someone who played both games, I can say that the most difficult thing is farming and the spawn interaction. In Dota you deny, use item delivery, mostly use tp to back to lane. In league you deny by the enemy tower, deal decent damage to creeps on all stages, back to spawn for healing and buying
I played lol for years and I feel like the game actually gets to complex, specially with new champs. It's okay to have complexity but nowadays every champ comes with a manual. A wall of text to explain every ability. It used to be much simpler and this made it more readable when you were up against new champs. You have more chances if you understand the champ you are up against but with the new champs, they are going to far.
Unfortunately I don't think it'll ever really happen due to the bad code that a lot of League is made on however, they've finally stopped supporting 32bit operating systems so there is hope for more advanced code to be used.
@@FireDarkNinja 32bit doesn't really matter for that purpose. You can only address 4GB of ram, sure, but usually game logic doesn't take up much space compared to assets like textures, animations and voicelines. Bad code is more often than not a matter of "we need to make this thing, quickly" so it gets done quickly. And then that patchwork is depended on by some other code, so if you change one thing, many others break.
@TZAR POTATO I also understand the valid complexity differences of Viego vs whatever Dota had. Would love to see a Complexity of Character Design/Lore as well. It has been hard for me to get into Dota 2 multiple times due to unfamiliarity, as well as the realistic?? High medeival fantasy?? artstyle. Which doesn't really appeal to me as I like the muted cartoonish graphics and colors. Never been into things that are spastic, robust, cluttered, and hard to easily depict. From character silhouettes to their individual design + vfx palettes and how they are designed for their intended performance get lost on me in Dota 2. It was very difficult to differenciate even my HUD the last time I attempted (I think Mid 2021). In addition to this, I am unsure about the surrounding environments of Dota 2. I don't hear a lot about the connected titles and how/if they are updated and in a similar polished state. I tend to play associating games due to character familiarity, or straight polish and dedication. I love TFT and the Ruined King "Riot Forge" Game bc I love the world that surrounds the in-game league characters.
@@TZAR_POTATO I'll have to use League characters here for reference then... For example. Twitch is a chemically mutated Rat from Zaun. Territorial, but that's about it. / Sentient rat with a Gun Quinn is a Ranger for the Demacian Military. With her bird, Valor, they go on scouting missions together. / Girl with Birb friend do things together ___ Sion is a man who slew the first King Jarvan with his dying breath. Hailed as a Hero he was resurrected under the Black Rose and is used as a weapon of war. / Hulking reanimated husk of a martyr Trundle is a troll that wants to become their leader. He travel's through Lissandra's domain in search of a weapon of True Ice. Negotiates a deal for his service in exchange for the weapon. Becomes King of the Trolls. / Big troll, Big weapon, Big following ___ Taric, a former knight of Demacia, exiled and sentenced to Mount Targon. Upon reaching its peak, he is imbued with the Aspect of the Protector, and becomes Runeterra's shield against the Void. / Exile that returns to protect the world, even the ones that hurt him. Tl;dr- the Breadth of these character's lore and character design. Varies a lot from simplistic to complex as well. And on the high end with Jhin, Ryze, Varus, Xerath for example. It can get pretty crazy, and some people attach themselves to these stories behind the design. That's what I'm missing from the Dota 2 characters, my ease of connection to their design and being
@@TZAR_POTATO .. I was asking for a character complexity of design and lore video/post from the Dota 2 characters compared to League. My bad. I'm lost in myself
@@reezeyraola4595 Have you seen my character design comparison video? It might answer that question, give it a shot and then ask again if it didn't do the task.
League players: "we have aphelios, we can be complex too!!!!!! Also league popularity shits on dota 2, F all of u nerds!" Dota players: "oh my god I am such a chad for not playing league. I am like higher being level brains for being able to play invoker without whiffing every 5 seconds. Jeezus I am such a genius, I am such a Sherlock Holmes, I am playing so strategical and complex, oh my lord, oh geez, oh darn. I bet I could write the Quran myself right now. Oh duuuude"
I agree, these wars are stupid. But this comparison will always happen simply because these two games are both successors to the original DotA, and both were made by the people who worked on DotA All-Stars. It's inevitable.
Hey this video was amazing, so pro and chill at the same time. Btw as a league player but a complexity enjoyer i rly do wanna play those crazy apm dota characters...
As a meepo player i can inform all of you, yes, it is hard. It becomes easy with practice. But still after a fast game of meepo i feel tired as if i played 3 normal matches. Meepo and invoker mechanics become easy. But The mental energy needed is always high.
Hi, I just finished the video and I agree with it for the most part. Dota is more about the macro game e.g. spiders, treants, illusions compared to League's hero complexity (we do have outliers). Good video.
@@ogjoepat dlad you liked it! I tried to stay simple enough so that league players can enjoy the dota info and dota players can understand the league info.
Agreed. Even many pros will use spells not as combos but just as situational answers. I'm convinced that's the right way to play. Open with a 3-4 spell combo, then adapt.
Miracle would be a pretty good one. His invoker highlights dates back from QE patch all the way to present. You can have a whole hr dedicated just for that. You can see everything from laning, item build, teamfighting, farming etc. At the highest level.
Amazing video brother, as a league player i really like how many dota heroes have interesting gimmicks, like controlling 5 characters at once or having 13 spells lmao
You have to input 3 magic orbs to create one of those spells. You have to remember the right combination of the 3 for the right spell midgame during a fight, *for only one spell*
I've played tons of hours of smite and legue and trying to get into dota feels odd like dota is so different in terms od everything compared to the others its a fun game but I would say dota 2 has more going on at 1 time than the others and can feel overwhelming but once you get in the groove it feel much more camparible
The complexity of dota is not only about the heroes complexity, which is already the hardest among other moba, but the complexity of dota mechanic is also adding to it, even for me it is more appealing than heroes complexity. The timing of camp stacking, high-low ground rule, ton of items which make a reguler default hero into a completely new hero, and many other dota unique mechanic
Sorry for long post but I play both games and I admit League of Legends is far more complex in hero kits, whilst a point and click champs in league feel old and outdated, releasing something like Tryndamere or Annie in Dota wouldn't have much complaints. The reason why Dota is more complex overreal is items. To make up for this there are way more active items, in League whilst you may have only 1 or 2 active items, in Dota it's basically standard to have 5 or even 6 items with an active meaning the complexity is more in item purchases than hero kits. Whislt you mostly build same 3 items every game in League, in Dota there is a lot more flexibility as you aren't forced into picking items for stats as much (No AP or AD scaling abilites in Dota) so almost every item in the game is viable on any hero to an extent. And whilst in League Dota is generally more chaotic with lv1 fights being a standard whilst in League invades are pretty rare and games last FAR longer due to inner towers being harder take and having fortification glyph (shared cooldown by all teamamtes thatt make sturcutres and creep temporarily immune), so you have a lot more planning to make. Controlling other illusions (Clones) or other creeps like Warlock Golem's (Tibbers) or jungle creeps with Chen and Enchantress (yes you can do that) is mandatory and it's not unusually for high elo players to mico manage 5 clones at once with Naga Siren. Hell Meeop's entire kit is basically controlling 3-4 heroes at once and champions like Aphelios don't even match the skill floor and abilities that Meepo has. Generally League is more 'balanced', abilities have FAR less mana costs (most heroes can only use spells 2-3 times in early game) and do way more damage due to having abilities ratio's. CC is way longer in dota and I laugh when League players complain about not being able to move when Shadow Shaman and Bane with Octarine core and refresher orb can basically perma CC you (3 second stuns are standard in Dota), items like Blink Dagger which is a flash on a 15 sec cooldown and has way more range or BKB which makes you hero immune to CC for up to 9 seconds or even refresher orb which resets all the all of your items and abilities. Most abilities are point and click which is how Linken's Sphere and Lotus Orb (blocks/reflect point and click item and spells) are considered good items *'OP' Dota Hero Abilties* Nature Prophet has a TF ult lv1 on 60 second cooldown, has ZERO second cooldown (you heard that right) at lv25 talent (NP is actually quite bad due to pro play nerfs) Shadow Shaman has Malz ult lv1 for double the CC duration (Bane has same but only lv6). Silencer ult is global 4.5-6 second point and click silence (no channel duration), has 100 second cooldown at max rank Underlord ult is basically Ryze ult but with global range Naga Siren ult is point and click aura around her that stuns enemies for up to 7 seconds with up to 1400 range (ranges same as league) balanced by not being able to take damage whilst stunned (used for getaway, chasing or setting up in teamfights). She can move during this and cancel any time. Sniper can get up to 950 Auto attack range when he max his E (which is a passive at no cost to his dps) and usually can increase it by a good 400 with items and talents. Spell and Attack Range numbers in Dota are about the same as League so imagine Caitlyn with triple AA range. (Balanced by ADC not being a true class so no 100% crit and Sniper being super slow and squishy) Spirit Breaker has Nocturne ult lv1 (without darkness) on a 17-11 second cooldown which stuns the enemy on contact and is completely global(although the travel time is way slower) Doom ult is point and click 16 silence that prevents enemy from using items as well (not a channeling abilty), used to last 20+ with talents. (Balanced by the rest of his kit being fairly weak and pro play nerfs) Tinker has free Refresher Orb as ult (look what Refresher Orb below) which refreshes the ult itself and can teleport to any strucutre at lv6 or Allied Hero after max rank Alchemist has Mundo R on 60 second cooldown all ranks, 30 second cooldown when you consider the fact that it lasts 30 seconds Enchantress and Chen can control and 'modify' jungle creeps and cast their spells. Helm of the Dominator item does the same thing. *'OP' Dota Items* Dragon's Lance is a item that is basically Ruunan's Hurricane without the charge, just +150 range passively. Can be upgraded into Hurricane Pike which gives same range and basically Galeforce active on 19 sec cooldown (can be used on allies and enemies as well) Black King Bar (BKB) gives hero up to 9 seconds of CC immunity for 50 mana cost Aghanim Scepter and Aghaninms shard litterly grants EVERY hero in the game a new ability or upgraded ability for relatively low prices. Referesher orb refreshes cooldowns of all items abilites (no excpetions) Aether Lens grant all items and abilites (not Auto attacks) 225 extra bonus range (Range units are about same in League and Dota) for 2275 gold (Gold prices also about the same but Dota having more expensive items). Some neutral Items (items you get for free by killing Jungle camps, also grant spell and attack range Blink Dagger is Flash on a 15 second cooldown with same range as a Caitlyn R, Balanced by giving 0 stats for 2250 gold (most expensive item in the game that doesn't give stats) and not being able to use it if you're taking damage (Can't escape only engage) Rod of Atos is point-and-click 2 second root with decent range and low cooldown (lower cooldown than Everfrost with around double the range). Can be upgraded into Gleipnir wich makes the root AoE and also gives a Stattik Shiv passive. Eul's Scepter gives you or enemy Zhonya's stasis (exact same duration surprisingly) but for 23 second cooldown. Can be upgraded into Windwaker so you can move during the stasis (but not attack or cast spells and only you not enemies) for a 13 second cooldown. And much more... Most League players would delete the game if any of these were ever added to the game in their currents states but it's considered normal and balanced in Dota, hells Nature's prophet with his 0 second TF ult is one of the worst champs in the game due to constant pro play targeted nerfs. If Dota players could see how much crit or CDR you can get in league they'd probably call it broken, most spells in Dota have way higher mana costs (120 is average mana cost of a spell) and higher cooldowns. Only Octarine core provides cdr (excluding from neutral items) and its 4600g and Deadulus and Silver's Eddge grant crit which don't stack and are very expensive. Most OP items are more expensive and gold efficiency is a big thing, Refresher Orb is like 20% gold efficent whilst Zhonya's is about 100%. Because most damage comes from one's kit or from stacking spells and attacks in teamfights which is why Dota have voice chat whilst League doesn't. To compare the two games for how good the kits are and saying one is better is ridiculous.
I think I got a TL:DR version of this. "" Dota is more complex when considering items, league is when not thinking of items. Things in dota seem OP. Active powerful items are standard. "" Let me know if I missed anything.
@@TZAR_POTATO no, even for casual players that hero is pretty hard to play. Split pushing while maintaining your original hero is pretty hard, and don't forget that if you don't micro the clone and die that thing can give plenty amount of gold to the enemy.
Dota skill description: hero teleports anywhere after delay. Lol skill description: hero ingrow into bush at the same time regrowing into choosen location.
You forget to mention tinker as one of the hardest to master...blink dagger and all his 3 damage skills and rearm takes mastery of positioning in order to make damage while unseen in the map (making use of the surrounding trees)
I would say that most difference in complexity comes from design focus. In DotA, a lot of (if not most) abilities are a little bit clunky on purpose, so you have to either predict enemy movement, or hope that your team will make setup for you.
I would love to see a dota 2 legue of legends fusion game where it has all the heros and champions in one 5v5 map with Barron, the dragon, Roshan, and so on in their normal spots. Watch as the chaos of league heros using blink dagger and the cancer of legion Jungle returns. also, old techies would fit in the WTF tier due to his entire thing requiring a lot of time management and getting into the heads of the enemy team.
I believe DOTA heroes are harder to play overall. But not because they are more complex (because they're not, except for some stupidly difficult heroes), but because of the overall mechanics of the game. I find LoL champions much easier to get into, which is actually great. They are more nimble and the game is more forgiving overall. Learning a new hero is exciting. You get to understand mechanics, design new build, etc. In DOTA, it's a pain to learn a new hero. You already know the hours you're going to have to put in to understand how to play. LoL champions have more complex mechanics embedded in each champion, which makes it very interesting. Something they should definitely add to DOTA. But those mechanics can be pretty simple and - on some champions - you don't even need to think about it. The reason why DOTA heroes are harder despite being less complex is because: 1) DOTA heroes are much slower. 2) All spells are much more powerful, especially when it comes to crowd control. 3) Mistakes are much less forgiving in DOTA.
As a primary league player but whom has regularly also played multiple MOBAs simultaneously (League for 10+ as its the game i started with, Dota 2 for 5-6 and Smite/HotS/Battlerite 3 years or less) , I agree with the choices of examples given about league champions and their complexity, but IMHO there is no contest here, *_Dota 2 is obviously no doubt the more complex_* when comparing these two games -
- firstly Dota 2 as a game simply has *_way more levels of interaction_* in the game through *_mechanics_* and *_game elements_* - in dota you can effect and interact with the trees, the altitude and the high-ground - low-ground leverage, attributes, day and night cycle just to name a few - where as in league your character can only affect yourself, your allies, the enemy and the immediate field and terrain in rudimentary ways
- secondly is the Dota 2 micromanagement system as mentioned at the start of the video, League literally has no proper micromanagement elements in the games infrastructure, everything you do is controlled and managed through the single character you play and their Q-W-E-R abilities and that's it - due to the lack of micro elements the game has only handful of characters with the ability to summon additional units, and they are either on full auto-pilot, their positioning can be controlled with rudimentary mouse-click + ability cast commands or you can just guide the focus of their action pattern with a simple spellcast - Dota 2 is just far more complex in terms of infrastructure - and Dota 2 has a whole subset of characters with playstyles based around this infrastructure that doesn't even exist in the other game
- thirdly, Dota 2 due to it's more complex nature of its mechanics and ways to interact with the game, has also *_hard-counters_* and *_counter-mechanics_* to completely nullify your interaction and/or impede you from interacting with the game in a specific manner, thus limiting or simply denying certain options - League doesn't have these sort of hard-counters or ways to nullify and/or impede you from interacting with the game - so effectively any character can still beat any another character, the circumstance is simply askew one way or the other - and the best characters are the ones whom are the most flexible and simply have the most mechanics available to them, or have most options with the mechanics available to them, which is why the modern champion design in league is detested by many, because the newer modern characters simply have way more mechanics implemented into their kits, thus giving them more options, and these options cannot be stopped or denied from them - where as older champions simply have to compete with less mechanics and interactions available to them
I agree
creep aggro/denying and pulls deserve a really big part of attention too btw. Laning in dota is so much more complex and rich, it's insane.
Yup.
Nevermind the absurdity of item builds in DotA2. Items alone make or break how effective you are. Whether it be stats, sheep stick, BKB, Blink, or even just 6 Rapiers. DotA is a game of madness where League is, generally, a more consistent experience.
Side note: RIP AD Veigar.
@@nvvv_ lol, it's the opposite
As a league player Meepo just broke my brain. Insane hero!!
First time seeing him?
@@TZAR_POTATO yes first time. invoker seemed very cool too. Wish we had such high skill champions in league
@@MrGetItIn Honestly, after talking with a couple of the riot balance team devs, they are convinced that you don't. That's why there's so very few active items, and even fewer still will be added. Also, why there's huge limits to stuff, such as being allowed only one mythic, only one type of potion, only one type of boots and so on... There's an intentional push toward less complex items, since the champs are already as complex as intended.
@@TZAR_POTATO Oh I know, I just think it's a shame
@@MrGetItIn Well... yeah. But hey, if you want a more complex league of legends, come try dota! I'll coach you, no problem if you want! I coack a LOT of league players trying out dota, it's a hobby.
i love the concept of Invoker , ever since my childhood in D1 . He has been one of my favorite hero designs across gaming. He’s a mage but you feel like an actual mad mage playing around with him and fiddling with the elements for different spells
He basically feels like the Avatar in ATLA xD
You can do actual fighting game like combos in Dota with Invoker ☠️
i would say you are playing magicka in dota lmao
Can you imagine as well if you they still keep the old 27 invoker skills? I mean thats nuts!!! unlimited skill!!!
@@alvinquezon5973 yes, and I'm still wait for the time he came back at his 27-skilled version (in which some are needed to be tweaked) either as a new hero (True Invoker or some flashy name) or as a boss in an event
I belive morphling deserves a spot too among the complex heroes. Since he has to manage his atribute shift, also press items, not mentioning he can morph into other enemy heroes and gain their basic spells and if you want to play high level morphling u have to use all of that.
Viego is kind of like morphling, except copying enemy heroes requires getting a kill or assist, plus he has multiple dashes as opposed to just the one. Morphling is more complex than viego, but viego is harder to play (since he requires a kill just to get his copy going)
@@TZAR_POTATO I didnt play that much lol to say but i know what hero your talking about and even tho they are similar morphling still has to manage his stats to deal decent damage while keeping himself alive so in my eyes morphling is much harder. But its an opinion and i think its hard to judge what is harder and what easier.
@@TZAR_POTATO I'd disagree tbh, like Viego has that skill ceiling of playing every character but the reason to do that is usually very rare, most of the time you use kills to ult reset and use it way more often as that instead of actually playing those champs. Viego's base kit is very powerful and incredibly easy as opposed to Morphling who is always one stun in agility stance away from being instantly killed as well as being incredibly focused around that stat switch decision as opposed to Viego who just charges at someone gets a stun does insane damage with max health damage because he always buys BORK without question it is his item. He is far more simple and easy I believe.
@@TZAR_POTATO there is no way viego is harder to play than morphling, wtf all you do with viego is w in auto attack finish with ult, not that hard. For morphling there are a lot of mecahnics to abuse your atribute shift and actually mastering it during laning phase.
@@ermindedic3706 The conversation was on complexity, not difficulty.
"Dota doesn't have inate passives"
Famous last words
I felt directly attacked.
Brewmaster used to be simple, only his ulti is a long text but not really complicated. Now thought they keep adding stuff to his passive skill making them as long as his ulti. Back then passive only get critical hit now he a living disco ball
also multitasking with his ulti is annoying as hell. too much micro.
I love it so much his old passive was 40%ms then 20% slow + crit it was good but not great and then they went "we really want to lean into the elemental spirit side of this" and gave him separate stances representing each spirit with different effects but you primarily spend it in wind stance and earth stance depending on lane matchup, in extended trades use fire and when chasing switch between wind and void, wind for the ms and void for the slow on attack, if you feel really spicy you can mix fire into that for a chance at a crit. AND THIS IS ONLY HIS E.
His Q is super simple, his W is decently simple too, his ult is pretty much just run people down early game, primarily focus on your earth brewling for that stun on q, he now has q displacement on void brewling where it does a magnus charge but it used to just aoe disarm. His wind brewling is where all the brain goes, as it has 3 spells, a purge removing buffs, a euls scepter and an invis which does extra damage on exit.
I won't go into detail but the aghanims is just spawning one of your brewlings outside of ult.
Honestly feels crazy that he's so unpopular because I don't think he's actually as difficult as people think, he's still difficult but nowhere near the most difficult in the game.
I feel like brew is one of the most noob friendly complex heroes in the game... His kit requires knowledge yes but overall he can be played at a low skill floor... just gotta learn what his spells do and with some basic micro skills like tab switching he's pretty much good to go
I've thought of brew as being insanely complex when I first saw his kit but after playing him he's surprisingly easy and intuitive to understand... Atleast compared to most of the tier 3 complexity heroes
Jajajjaj true
I freaking love brew man midas radiance every day baby
I would argue Bristleback is the single most braindead character in any MOBA (which is ironic since his Int gain is really high)
His entire gameplay is spamming Q and W off cooldown and right-clicking, and his highest skill expression is facing away from incoming damage
you forgot Tinker...
Ah, the sub 2k speaks. Bristle is less about running blindly, and more where. He can make or break games depending how he reacts to the hero’s in the game, what they buy, and where they position when. On the surface he’s brain dead, in truth, his positioning in a fight and item interactions and choices decide in anything which a half competent team.
@@markjacobs3232 I'm pretty sure "reacting to heroes ingame accordingly", "buying the right items for the occassion" and "position well" applies to every single hero in the game
His actual mechanics are still 2 button spam and 2 passives
@@MAMAJUGO A fair point, but different hero's have more or less reactions and items to both build, and beware of. Juggernaut can over extend for little cost, but try the same with Sven and your gonna have a bad time. The hero's unique kits and mechanics are what results in different styles of play and builds.
yeah Bristle back is the hero I always recommend to my friends new to dota, just spamming spells Q and W and try to get tanky items.
I think it's important to mention Arc Warden. He's not Meepo-tier difficulty, but I think the fact that to be effective with him you need to juggle not only 6 heavily conditional abilities across two heroes, but swap fluidly between their items as well in a game where you NEED to use item actives, is worthy of discussion. Throw in the fact that his base damage and base stats are pretty pathetic and that he needs to make it to the late game to shine, and I think he fits in the higher tiers of both mechanic and macro complexity. He's not Meepo, but he's also not easy.
yeh bro i think that too , Morphling is other hero hard
Not to mention a rubick with agha needs to be alert when enemies on clash uses his ulti so he can copy it and use it as counter. Also some honorable mentions like morphling, bane, chen, enchantress, ember, void spirit, earth spirit, storm spirit and brewmaster and puck
Add tinker to the list as well. The constant refresh of active items skills as well as position checks you need to do per re-arm is on another level.
It's a bit above Lone Druid tier
I would personally say, when it comes to difficulty/complexity, Earth Spirit is also really high on the list. The reason for that being, he's basically impossible to play effectively without using directional movement. That means, you push down a button you bind for directional movement and click to move to a direction instead of a place. His first ability kicks someone or something (any unit and Stone Remnant) into the direction he's facing, not a direction you choose, you choose the thing, not the direction (except Stone Remnants, you can aim those). He also has the Stone Remnant ability that puts down Stone Remnants like Syndra does with her orbs, but he kicks, magnetises them to himself, uses them to propell himself further and uses them to increase his potency of his ult (for the simlicity of things, I'll just say it does damage over time and it does more things with the Stoen Remnants and more damage with the Stone Remnants).
TL;DR: The hero is about spacial perception and execution. I literally had to get used to a unique finger positioning just to play that hero somewhat.
ES got me to Divine*(Divine was the highest rank at the time)rank, all the time I spent practicing him really paid off. I miss playing DotA.
I dont know if you have played ES recently or not.. but he can kick stuff at any direction now without facing. makes life a lot easier
@@ujjwalbhowmick9569 remnants take priority.
O yeah ES Void Spirt and Storm spirit are all about combo spells but ES is realy a mess, i aways forget what the heck i was doing when i toss my first combo spells and bam u can do 2 more spells :D
I think it's kinda unfair that you dont include items. Dota items are basically spells and all the good items have actives. Take a hero like Tinker, Arc Warden and Puck with Octarine, it so drastically changes their play style that it's hard to view said hero with out items. Oh yeh, there's also aghanim and refresher orb
Edit: u know what, i get it, see you in next video :))
Its easy to tell that he's biased when it comes to LoL.
and a complexity two hero brewmaster is at the last bit he has little knowledge on dota 2 from what Ive seen on the video
Yes.. items are inseparable. You can play WK without armlet, but your teammates will begin to flame you.
Aren't there some active items in league too? Like the one that makes you invincible for couple of seconds and the force staff one?
and backpack and courir and and and ...
Yeah as soon as any hero was ranked lower in complexity than yuumi I couldn't take it too seriously
At least you can read what Dota heroes do in client (no matter how complex), sucks that I have to go to a third party wiki to find out how much damage my spell does in League.
that really is some BUUUULLLSHIIIITTT forreal though
and if you get magic amp it even calculate how much dmg will do after altho you have to hold ALT while hovering over the spell to gives you the updated numbers
@@phantonn5670 Leagues does the same, right? I thought it would.
The technology just doesn’t exist at the moment.
@@GG-ou7it WHAAAT?!
If you include summoner spells in the complexity of a hero you should be including items as well.
Yeah, his reasoning for including summoner spells also applies to Items, probably even more so than SP
I agree, but league items would be in the vid as a result. While not as complex as dota's nor the shop-mechanic as a whole. It's serviceable
Lol has very few active item, most of them give you stats, or passive effect. While in dota2, my goodness, the number of active item is insane, bro.
When you see pro invokes running 5 active items…
@@markjacobs3232 good god. The average player can barely string skywraths combo together using only his spells and one active item.
Do it too fast and people think your using scripts lmao
Me, before trying Invoker against bots: All I gotta do is memorize the spells. I think I can use a specific set of spells to start.
Me, during team fights against bots chasing me: *panic presses every button, only to end up repeating the spell, the spell is in CD, or pressing the wrong button*
happens even to pros :)
As an invoked player it gets surprisingly easier. It becomes less “oh no what’s what” and more I need x y and then z, and you just hit the buttons. Only issues when you Mia click an orb and “oops that’s a frost wall” but then you just work with it. As intimidating as he seems, practice is really all it takes. If it makes it easy, my warmup with invoked when starting to play after while is using a select few spells at first, then adding the less useful ones later.
I don't play League, but I think the subtleness of the hero mechanic can also mix in. Like Puck and SF, seems pretty simple, but if you're a mechanic god, you basically can always outplay in trade. Batrider reducing turn rate. Environmental advantage, as managing night time as NS, Slardar running on water, etc. I dont know but maybe LoL has some unique to them too
Both games have unique stuff like what you listed. I just chose some cluster of heroes from categories of complexity to represent the games.
Nope they dont have such deep things in game even map is so basic
as a fan of both, it’s refreshing to see a video about dota and league comparisons without having the comments be a battleground
Oh but they are! There's a LOT of dota crybabies complaining about this or that hero not being in the video, when the vid is already very long! There's also people complaining that I didnt show items, when I have three other videos about items exclusively!
@@TZAR_POTATO still relatively tame, this the same for league players when they complain that their champ didn't get a skin from riot
just keep doing what you're doing!
AGREED!
I think one of the biggest differences between Dota and League is that Dota is more item and build-based. For every Summoner Spell in League, there is an item in Dota that does more or less the same thing. Plus a ton of items that come with active abilities and pretty much change the core of a hero.
I hope if you ever revisit this topic you should definitely talk about builds, among other mechanics like Fortifying structures, the Courier, last hit denies, Aghanim’s, day night cycle.
Thanks for the brainstorming! I covered items in other vids, but yeah the other stuff could be worth covering on its own
wish dota had some way to Cleanse debuffs while disabled/stunned (i'm looking at you Mirana)
@@RakeRock1994 Some heroes have that in their kits, yes. Others can cleanse debuffs from allies, which is equally powerful.
@@TZAR_POTATO only ursa can purge debuffs on himself by simply pressing a button. And he needed aghs if i recall correctly
@@RakeRock1994 Abaddon can do it too, so can troll warlord with aghs
As a tl;dr, League's champion complexity is higher on average, but Dota's hero complexity has further extremes. There is nothing in League that is as braindead as a Skelly King, Phantom Assassin or Viper and most picks require some tryharding, but then again Dota has some mindbending stuff like Meepo, Invoker, Oracle or really high execution picks like Earth Spirit, Brewmaster, Arc Warden etc.
I disagree that League dont have any champion like the simpler ones in Dota 2, that's just because League has a default of 7 abilities, but if you take a look at champions like Garen, Yummi, Trundle, they are braindead easy
I will also disagree that League does not have braindead champs, just look at freakin' Tryndamere and Master Yi.
Nah, most League champion follow these recipe: single damage, gap closer/escape, utility, burst.
Bro what are you on about, oracle is not hard at all. PA is not a braindead hero, she is not hard but braindead? She was more braindead in the past i will give you that
@@Ybereza69 ok sweatlord
You also forgot Rubick - he has one stun (Which also allows him to throw his enemies in different directions, doubling both as a target and area stun), a fade bolt which deals damage and weakens a hero, and a passive which increases all of his cast/item ranges and spell damage. But he is also capable of stealing the last ability an enemy casts, meaning technically he can have between 13 to 23 spells during the game (Oh, and his aghanim allows him to steal two spells at a time and also upgrade them, and although you don't take any items into account, it is a major difference in terms of gameplay)
But i think it's not fair to title this as a "hero complexity" comparison, because even the most simple heroes of dota will be significantly more challenging when you mix items and general game situations, two things you did not cover here.
And as you've said, complexity does not equal to game being worse or better. In the end, you can play casually in either and still find success
Yeah, playing Rubik is like taking an exam on your dota skills knowledge 💀
disagree. all 3 basic skill of rubick is easy to understand. his ulti to steal other's ultimate is quite hard but Lol also have sylas steal ultimate too, and viego even copy 3 basic skill
@@jackolevious8308 he doesn't steal ultis, he steals the last used skill, so you can easily steal some dogcrap skill like Furion's treants or something, Rubick is hard not because of the skills, but because you have to remember a lot and also understand where and when should you be when there's a battle
Rubick is about skill knowlesge, but even then, its more about reflex. Spell stealing right after they cast.
I just love both of them. Dota is the more complex one which is obvious.
League fights are like Martial Art. So beautiful. Especially my girl Irelia.
Dota is more like a chess. More about decisions and timing.
But I just play Mobile Legend. Game is easy af. Everyone is bad. I can have fun for like 15mins. It just makes me feel a little better when I miss games like this 2.
Sometimes, I watch videos about Dota2 and LOL so I can feel a little bit of it.
nice
Based lmfao
I feel you. I switched from dota to league just because of the time input required.
Evenly matched games always extend beyond 1 hour in dota without the surrender option and most games end by 45 min. While in league the lengthiest games do not ever cross 1 hr mark with most games over by 30 minutes.
Really thinking about shifting to mobile legends for that shorter match duration
But dota esports scene is always fascinating
I really like this comment. I agree with it, both have their place but when everything is considered the complexity question is easily answered. Both definitely have their place and both are definitely skillful and engaging games.
as a dota player I can say in dota difficulty has very low interaction with complexity because most of the times hardest heroes are not the ones with biggest kit but the ones that has to always be in the right place at the right time to do anything like Drowranger a hero with relatively simple kit but supper hard to play at mid to high bracket.
and with my small experience in lol i can say its true for lol too for example Vayne.
Vayne ? like spam q thats it ...... she has 2 skills lol
@@flemethwow9273 with low range and defense, any assassin with 1 item can oneshot her.
Vayne and actually most of adc in LoL is hard to play. Not cause of heroes themselves but because you need to position yourself correctly. Vayne is especially hard cause she has a little bit lower AA range. Yes, you have your Q with invis while ulting but still you can get blown up if you catch 1 CC in 5v5.
@@flemethwow9273yeah you need insane kiting and spacing to make her work, to dash well to use condemn and to know how to use invis
Another banger video from Tzar Potato. Keep it going dude your videos are great!! ❤
thank you for being a fan! Just share and like, and hopefully, one of these vids will eventually be picked up :)
I would only really consider summoner spells a part of the champion complexity in a case where there is special interaction.
Most of the time flash will simply be used to create/close distance and ignite is a simple click for some extra damage/heal reduction in an all in.
However for a champion like for example lee sin where more complex use of flash in the form of insec plays are a core part of playing the champion i think its fair to consider Flash a core part of the champion complexity.
It is essentially the difference between playing earthshaker with or without blink dagger.
brew wiki made me laugh
Then, my including it was a success!
Honestly, I thought of adding that section with normal scroll speed so people can sort of read at least ability names and see pictures... but it lasted for over a minute so I had to speed it up dramatically or people would get bored.
1 [In my personal experience League is built on the premise of being easier. It's not only faster mechanics and faster particles, with less delay, less punishing mechanics, but League is more meta reliant (meaning that the game actively punish you for playing off meta, in a way that you aren't suppose to).]
2 [Picking some basic example, in League you can't go 2-1-2 (meaning 2 person top, 1 mid and 2 bottom), nor 1-1-3, 1-1-1 and 2 jungle, not that those strategies are common place, but you can develope those things and win in Dota as trilane or with 2 junglers. The point being that even in the most basic rule of gameplay such as: How many people are in one lane per game? Can change with great variety depending on the team. In League that is fixed and anything else than 1-1-2 + 1 jungler is trolling or a game breaking problem (remember people picking supports top and then roaming the map taking advantage of bounty systems and gold/xp catch up system). Other example is that you could totally not level up an ability if it was too resource intensive or not worth the early investment, something that would be also trolling in league. League is really more fixed than Dota in that regard.
I'm not mentioning also the other main point, champions classes and subclasses. In dota functions exists, but champions are so unique that how they play is radically different and the impact they have in the game is huge. Whereas League, you want a tank to soak damage, an adc to deal damage, a support to peel the damage dealer, the assassin to burst squishy targets, and someone to engage. There used to be more type of compositions but were dropped in favor of faster and more damage oriented type of gameplay (the mentality being that if the enemy is dead then I can finish the game sooner) and you probably want to pick S tier champions as they stomp everything else and if you can't, well you pick the next similar thing that isn't banned and does everything the S tier does but a little worse.
In dota as said, there is meta, but team composition/counterpicks, and the unique nature of champions make it harder to be as cookie cutter. ]
3 [In my opinion, Dota skill ceiling is higher than League, but League is meant to be more mainstream.
Big disclaimer: You should play whatever game you enjoy most regardless of complexity either way.]
I aint reedin , all dat
@@ajdndbdjbdj do not, because I don't want to sound like a dick saying that to you. Here's the structure: 1) Main topic 2) Arguments 3) Conclusion
I would say Dota skill floor is higher for sure, but ceiling is a different story
How the game being faster makes it easier tho?
@@baptistecochennec5956 thank you for your question. However I do not care in persuing any content related to league.
Hope you can answer that question in your own using logic and other resources available. Cheers!
I think it's worth mentioning that complexity =/= difficulty to play. For instance, I love high mobility nukers, like timbersaw, ember, storm and tinker. While these heroes are more mechanically intensive than something like a sven let's say, I am way better with any of these heroes than I am with right click carries like Sven. Having a lot of fancy tools means you have a lot of options. I'm used to playing heroes that can easily engage and disengage the fight, so when it comes time to look at the enemy hero, look at my hero and estimate who is stronger and then manfight it out I am relatively bad at it. Something like sven actually requires a shitton of skill to play well, you need to position yourself to not get kited, you have one stun so better use it at the right time, you need to decide when to press your long cd abilities, and you need to gauge whether it is time to back or go in well in advance, because if you decide to backout too late you will just die, because you have no real escape. Your options are limited, and so you need to make every action count. Point is, while invoker may be more complex than say a phantom assassin or something, it is equally difficult to play them properly at a high skill level. Think for instance how hard it is for Sven to kill a puck, and how easy it is for puck to run away on 2% hp if Sven miscalculates even slightly.
I sort of assumed that's an obvious fact, though lots of commenters disagree.
nah, invoker is a really bad example.
I think it's unfair to compare the complexity of the character's spells and abilities without taking into account the greater complexity of the game in which they are and consequentially of how they are played. You put Naga as below average, but a good naga player has to farm both lanes as well as jungle. I don't think that's less complex than having to trigger combos using your spells while your camera is set on your lane and your 1-2 opponents for most of the time.
I'd watch a 2 hour video of you going in depth on all the characters. Great topic, good video.
of which game? And would yo pay for that? This video is 10 minutes and still took a week to write, record, edit :(
@@TZAR_POTATO do it anyways, screw sanity and produce more content
@@ronswanson1910 Hmm...
@@TZAR_POTATO of both games, i play both, i like them both, know both, but it would be cool for you to make a video or 2 about it, lol and dota 2, and yes, i am willing to pay, just not insane amounts lol
@@johncarson604 about what?
I really think you did justice to the analysis given your methodology for the comparision. I would have loved to see your general opinion on the length of that complexity line when all things are considered simultaneously (items, junhle auras nd abilities, summoner spells, map size, interactive map elements like altitude and trees, dragon spirits and souls, shelly, etc
But then you are just comparing "which game is more complex" though, and it goes back to the two things I said at the start, is it mechanics, or skill ceiling, or what?
Like, dota's macro gameplay is way more complex than league, because you have a more dynamic map with a lot more use cases aside from "wall hides me but i can hop it" stuff, and you got a more active jungling meta in the midgame.
But league has more weird champion designs, and two objective kills, that are clear winning conditions and worth fighting over, while roshan can be varied, like, you can choose to not fight at the rosh pit because you have a better chance in high ground defense 5v6 as opposed to cage match 5v5 at the pit
Lots of factors, would be a way too complicated video for a simple hobbyist like me to do.
"Love, friendship"
Toxic server: "we don't do that here"
PepeHands
Great vid, been playing dota and was curious about lol but i never rlly liked how there werent as many active abilities or items in the game, and thw fact tht champs were locked behind a paywall
Rlly wished u covered a lot more of the heroes/champions tho, but in the end it was still nice
Hey if my channel survives for a while i will get to cover more with time
Interesting video, that's wanted from a discussion from a long time 🤔
also, would love to be coached/play games with you xp (not exactly new, but not pro either)
also, good video as always nwn
Well, I'm also not new and not pro, not sure what I can do to help but feel free to message me on discord TZAR_POTATO#1890
Invoker is such a cool mage idea.
3 simple symbols, but their combinations make an insane number of spell mixtures.
As an invoker user, I'm proud of myself that I can cast all skills in a clash. I tried to play LOL around 2016-2017 since most of my classmates in first-year college played LOL but after 1 year, the game became so easy that I got bored and returned to Dota. Not bragging or being cocky but it is what it is, I have fun playing LOL but Dota is on another level on complexity
I think dota is way more complex than lol, and that makes it more replayable.
It feels restricting playing LoL especially since I main support in Dota2. There's so many things to do to secure or salvage a lane in Dota2
Dota's complexity comes from its simplicity. Like Vengeful Spirit is a pretty straightforward hero: stun (Magic Missile), lower armor + attack damage, (Wave of Terror) increase attack damage of teams (Vengeful Aura), and swap hero/enemies position with herself (Netherswap). On paper, this is a pretty simple hero to grasp.
However, who you stun, when to stun, who to lower armor/attack damage, and who to swap are all what makes her a complex hero. Swapping to save your teams from enemies makes her one of the strongest heroes in the game. Her sacrificial nature makes strategical usage of her spells very important, and she can turn the tides of battle (swap to save your team from a Skywrath Mage + Faceless Void combo), as easily as she can fuck them up (swap in enemy Tidehunter or Magnus and set up their wombo combos for them).
League makes their spells complex by adding needless complexity. Vengeful being leaguified would be that her Magic Missile only does damage, and does not stun unless target is affected by Wave of Terror first. Yes, it adds complexity, but for not much reason.
I like the mention of Ogre Magi in the dead-simple catagory. As his (their?) kit literally revolves entirely around RNG (their ult is a passive called Multicast that allows their spells to cast multiple times for increased effects, with the chance for higher and higher multicasts per level in the ult (up to 3x casts at max rank!!!))
not to mention items
That ring is actually also very simple. It’s about averages, it’s basically just a spell version of crit.
Going back to today when they literally made him dumber xD No more INT but pure STR xD
Now every single dota hero has an innate ability and 2+ facets, and remember this is only the base hero, because if we are talking items too then around half of dota 2 heroes get a new ability from aghanim's shard or aghanim's scepter or both :D
Obviously.
If you include summoner abilities, you must include items. Dota's items are far more complex than LoL and thus gameplay on most heroes is far more complex than you suggested. Wraith King for instance will always have Armlet and Blink dagger and probably BKB. Dota spells are much more high impact, high cooldown, meaning timing is everything. League is more low cooldown and forgiving.
There are other videos comparing items. This one is not such a video.
OP didint include items because he wouldnt be able to compare complexity. LoL would look like building sand castle on a sunny day in a sandbox while Dota as building a fucking spaceship in an open space.
@@Bdrbs No, it's because I have other videos on items. One topic per video.
@@Bdrbs cause you missed the point, summoner spells are still spells when considered, adding a blink dagger to a wraith king will not make him more complex inherently as a hero than a malphite building abyssal mask for more damage, items are their own thing and they add amplifications and modifications to your heroes, which will defeat the purpose of the video if you included it within that context cause it won’t be about “just the hero complexity” anymore
@@yuhan4469 except what you said simply isn't true for Dota, so well, if you have not played the game, don't talk like you know it. Having a blink dagger is like having a super flash on a 13s cooldown, and you wouldn't need to play dota to understand how massive having a long range flash would be for a hero who has as much mobility as a tractor like Wraith King. Say, if League has an item that give Garen or Darius a jump as far as a Zac (and without the wind up), would you still say those champions will play the game the same way as before? Items legit completely change how the hero approach team fights in Dota, unlike the modifications and amplifications you see in League. Not to mention, abilities in Dota is upgradable, and it's far more ridiculous than Khazix Evolutions or Viktor Cores upgrade. With Aghanim Scepter Wraith King Ultimate gain a passive aura that kept his ally alive for 8 sec after their demise, allowing them to continue casting abilities (like an aoe Karthus passive). Can you still say items doesn't make his kit different after hearing that?
While I do agree including items would create too many variables to make a comparison video, the method Potato used to approach the problem is far from perfect, and people criticism of that is justifiable. Personally, while I admire his attempts, Dota mechanics are so inter interactive that I doubt they can be discussed separately like that.
deep explanation of every (some) complexity heroes/champions would be cool to see
do you mean like... a hero intro vid ? I figure riot and dotacinema both do those already
I know you didn't include items but with items Arc is gets 2nd place for sure. Honestly he should be considered the most complex hero in Dota. The amount of brain power and skill you need to play him is nutty
2 hero's
4 active spells
And atleast 3-4 active items
his spells are really simple, and i didn't include items. If i did, yeah .he'd be up there for sure. I did mention why items weren't in the chart, hopefully you understand. I intend to do a video on items later on.
If items were factored, lone druid, arc warden, dazzle, and tinker would all be bonkers level
@@TZAR_POTATO I think if you're to mention summoner abilities you should mention dota's items because they act in a similar way; by providing extra utility that's not in your hero's kit.
@@HomemadeCoconuts Summoner spells do act like items, just like items can act like spells. Difference is, items are what you purchase in the game, and builds vary all the time. You can also sell and adapt items, while summoner spells are locked in and available at level one.
Same thing with Tinker. Tinker and Arc Warden have very simple spells that are easy to grasp.
But they're two of the hardest heroes in the game to play. Much harder than Brewmaster for example, assuming you know everything he does and have decent micro.
Meepo also fall into this category somewhat. His abilities are pretty simple like Tinker and Arc, but he's very hard to execute with.
Yup! When items are added into the mix, the graph can shift pretty wildly.
you also forgot about tinker, the spirit heroes (yes all four), Terrorblade (a good terrorblade is 100% up there on the complexity chart) and many others, but still this video was extremely enjoyable to watch!
There's a difference between forgotten and not included. Glad you liked my video though!
@@TZAR_POTATO Thats true! and a misconception on my part. still your videos have me hooked! much love :D
tyty @@disrrpt8546
Don't forget Rubick!
He has 3 actives to start, then he can steal any spell from any enemy hero. So in any given game, he has 3+5*4 possible abilities to be using for 23.
I mean, he's just as complex as Sylas, and both of them aren't actually that complex if you think about it.
Granted Sylas can only steal an ultimate, whilst rubick can steal any active spell that the enemy hero recently use.
I'd like to argue against the fact that Sylas can just point and click an enemy hero then take their ultimate, while Rubick needs to wait for that chance to get the specific spell that he wants.
@@mizului7484 On the other side, rubic has passive cast range, and two point and click spells as q and w. Sylas has to aim.
@@TZAR_POTATO agree
@@earonzzzowenzzz3462 sylas is just like valentina in ml
And then there's Rubik that's like: did you learn the abilities, their synergy and animations well? Nice, here's a f*cking pop quiz
I find it interesting how both games take different approaches to adding complex wrinkles.
Dota (for the most part) has simple heroes. Their kits are simple, and execution often involves point and click. By contrast, league champions have (generally) more demanding kits. Even for simple abilities like "press q to do damage", you have to land a skillshot to execute it.
Both games character kit complexity defines their itemization. Because league has complex characters with a ton of red flags the developers have to pay attention to (executes, resets, etc.) Its difficult to add an item like DFG and make it balanced in that environment. By contrast, because dota has simpler abilities it allows the items to be more complex. Some of my favorites are refresher orb (reset every cooldown. If you had summoners in dota you'd reset those too) and blink dagger (flash on a 15 second cooldown, full screen length).
I play both and I dont have a preference; they're distinct systems and I enjoy them equally but in different ways.
dota's abilities most of the time are not focused on how to use them , but when and on which enemy , for example blood seeker , his active ability that make silence should NOT be cast a random enemy , you should pick an enemy that rely on abilities like death prophet ,zeus , or arc , or his ultimate , you should not rush in using it , only when the enemy is retreating
Another example is oracle , but im too lazy to explain him
@@ajdndbdjbdj new oracle is a LOT simpler than he was when his W always gave both effects. You still need to consider timing, but I can't remember how many games were ruined because oracle decided to disarm their own carry
Despite the quite lengthy hero wiki page Brewmaster has, I'd argue he's the most complex hero of that final list you put (Invoker, Meepo, Chen, himself and Lone Druid), but also the least mechanically demanding of the lot.
It boils down to him basically having almost every mechanic you mentioned in the video, plus he has a stance system.
His stances mostly affect which passives he gets at the time, which are also linked and affected by one of his spells, so he also has spell combos. His ulti turns him into an RTS player, because he now has several units to control, each with their own spells, but they are always the same spells, which most of them are point-and-click or have a very generous Area of Effect to work with.
And this state is temporary, so he's still less mechanically demanding than Chen.
If anything, in a hectic teamfight, I think it's actually more difficult to keep track of which stance the Brew player is in at the time, than actually playing the hero.
Yup!
As an immortal brew main, i can confirm that he is nowhere near as difficult as meepo, but still can be very tricky to use all the spells properly during tf (since they all have low cd plus being in diff units)
Yeah brew is a very good example of complexity =\= difficulty... All ud need for him is knowledge on his abilities and just some basic micro skills like tab switching and ur good to go... His stance system can decently function with just 1 stance the entire game like storm which gives evasion and mov speed which is generally good all round... Although yes maximizing the heroes potential is whole other thing
I would also like to highlight kunkka as sort of an antithesis to brew master not necessarily as a "two sides of the same coin" deal but more of a "similar sides of two different coins"... He has quite a simple kit to understand and with a low skill floor to pick up and play but his skill ceiling is potentially limitless with players like attacker who does the craziest shit with the hero
I’d say it doesn’t really make any sense to include summoner spells but not items. Blink being a summoner spell in LoL and an item in DotA means this list skews toward LoL being more complex in some regards. You can’t really separate items from the complexity of heroes/champs
But.. you can, and I did. The topic of the video is hero complexity without items. There may be videos in the future of hero complexity with items.
@@TZAR_POTATO Next up make a video about which game is easier to play with a blindfold, this will surely help people decide which game is more complex or better.
Illusion and summon micro heroes of dota 2 need an honorable mention as well. Missed here.
I think this may be your league experience, but some of the hero you mentioned are actually kinda complicated. In league, complex hero means press button fast and have many button. Like that shield dude you showed that blocked the path, that’s like low level ability complexity in dota. That’s really just Kunkka shard (he’s got 6 disables), and kunkka isn’t a hard hero. My reaction was just that the shield dude blocking the path is just kinda a normal interaction for a lot of dota hero lol. In dota, complex heroes have skills that require lots of game knowledge and macro gaming, not just micro. Invoker is just hardest league hero, but it’s in dota so each of those spells can just kinda do what that shield guy did in terms of play potential and game impact. Deafening blast + ice wall for example, does pretty much the same thing. Meepo isn’t the hardest character in the game cuz of his crazy micro, he’s the hardest cuz he has the craziest micro and the craziest macro. Dota is a very long term game, and pretty much every macro decision you make as Meepo can take a dump on your game. You gotta know every hero and every matchup and every item he builds intimately because you’re gonna change your build a lot depending on the game. Wraith King is mechanically simple, but I don’t think he’s brain dead. Not only is he a carry, so messing up like twice can screw the entire game over; but he’s balanced around his ultimate being so strong. Walking at heroes and clicking right in dota is much harder than it sounds, especially on a hero that has no skills to help him do that like WK. Still not hard or complex, but even he is deceptively complex when you actually gotta use him due to his drawbacks. In dota, naga is a fairly complex hero to play optimally, you’re essentially playing a single player RTS tower defense game to choke the life out of your opponents over the course of the game and having the most impact with the least interaction. It’s hard to call many heroes “brain dead” in dota, just cuz of how complex the game is. Having simple skills can actually be a detriment, as more complex kits are more complex BECAUSE of how deep they are strategically instead of mechanically. Void Spirit is a hero with simple skills but very high strategic execution because his simple spells quite simply give him *options* and not just more buttons to press.
Calm bro don't seem like you lack attention and meepo is more hard than invoker.
I aint reedin allat
There yah go, nuf said hahahaha every hero in dota2 needs some fkn skills to use on a high skilled game, even the stpd IO now needs some good positioning and skill timing plus items 😂😂😂😂
@@freyrkratos I would say the fact that Io is so absolutely useless outside of being a floating status effect and heal to your carry makes them pretty difficult lol. And yeah, her ultimate requires planning and coordination to get the most out of it
@@angelhuamani9753 I have no idea what that means. And yeah, I agree, Meepo is harder than Invoker. Invoker is just an example of a hero with a ton of play potential in their moves. Almost every single one has a ton of utility and variability in it
Check out Heroes of the Storm heroes:
Chogall, the twin headed orge: 2 players in one body. Cho controls legs, Gall throws skillshots. Battle Mage raid boss
Abathur: main body hides in base, infest ally globally, ultimate transforms into allies
Deathwing: big dragon, permanently immune to enemy crowd control but also cannot be buffed/healed by allies. Literally raid boss
Murky, the murlock: Fixed death timer at 8seconds, revives from his egg that can be placed anywhere
Medivh, the cheater: makes allies invulnerable, creates portals, stops time, transforms into an immortal bird for vision
Samuro, illusion blademaster: Meepo but only 1 does damage. Swap positions with your illusions at will. Multiple invulnerability frames
The Lost Vikings: Meepo, but 3 vikings. Tank, waveclear, scout
Yeah I know them. I play some hots too
Get on the hopium train, Microsoft acquired Blizz 🫠💉
Although you said that you do not take into account items, I would still like to note the anti-mage with his unrealistic timings on which his game depends. And I also think that the skymage earth spirit and similar spammers are also not easy heroes, because it's one thing to just press the buttons, and the other is to press them in less than a second and again + items
Nothing more simple than AM
@@nouashax__ "Nothing more simple than AM" on paper. In reality you have to manage farm, timings, splitpushing, blinks, counterspells, etc.
Every hero has his own difficult to master mechanics.
@@sabnock31 what u are saying are things that is generally to all heroes.
Especially heroes that has high mobility, like AM, NP, Ember, void spirit, etc.
As a hero, AM is basic.
Thats it
Good video. I no longer play Dota 2 but I still appreciate the 'dota vs league' circle-jerk.
Then, watch my whole playlist on that theme! Glad to hear you liked it.
Item is the important part in Dota, heroes can play 2-5 different roles that is the fun part, you pick the support and go adc and it'll work depending on the talents and items.
And it's fucking awesome. I've been spamming AM mid with absurd success.
@@TZAR_POTATO just watched ur other videos, decent work man 👍, make video on Aghanim 😅
@@ginnoji. what do you mean? Also, glad you liked them!
@@TZAR_POTATO Aghanim's shard, Scepter
@@TZAR_POTATO and comparison to 7.33 map
really love the outro music and nice video. do you know the name?
It’s a tricky comparison- include everything and it gets messy. Things like turn rate and art school rate and how much they link to spells, items etc.
I played league (one who shoots Mira a ultimate but global - Ashe?) and did quite good for first game.
My first Dota game was a catastrophic 😅. But all in all both are good games. Ngl tho league got some basics from Dota 1 right? 👀
Right. Both games copied heavily from dota 1.
There's also rubick and morphing. Although it's usually most effective to play it as simple as possible
League: simpler game with generally complex characters
Dota: complex game with generally simpler characters
Not really
With the Dance Dance revolution Draven, CoD Aphelios, and RTS Chen. I wonder what game genre mechanic are DotA and LoL gonna add in their game.
I'm sold to which ever can add an Ace Combat and Armored Core mechanic in their game.
Hahahaha armored core ace combat hahahhahaha!! That's great.
I think summoners spells shouldn't be analysed, if they are, so Aghanim's Shards and Scepters should be too
I tried to mention why I thought they should be added into the vid. What did you think of my reason for it, and what's your counter?
Also as someone who played both games, I can say that the most difficult thing is farming and the spawn interaction. In Dota you deny, use item delivery, mostly use tp to back to lane. In league you deny by the enemy tower, deal decent damage to creeps on all stages, back to spawn for healing and buying
I played lol for years and I feel like the game actually gets to complex, specially with new champs. It's okay to have complexity but nowadays every champ comes with a manual. A wall of text to explain every ability. It used to be much simpler and this made it more readable when you were up against new champs. You have more chances if you understand the champ you are up against but with the new champs, they are going to far.
Sure Yunmi and milio helps
thats the point of playing for me
enjoy the journey of learning😅
Just play fps if you don't like MOBAs complexity
Nice music, and good video
Great video! I want to see a champ in league that can split up and be in several lanes. The Lost Vikings form HOTS can split up😖
Unfortunately I don't think it'll ever really happen due to the bad code that a lot of League is made on however, they've finally stopped supporting 32bit operating systems so there is hope for more advanced code to be used.
@@FireDarkNinja 32bit doesn't really matter for that purpose. You can only address 4GB of ram, sure, but usually game logic doesn't take up much space compared to assets like textures, animations and voicelines. Bad code is more often than not a matter of "we need to make this thing, quickly" so it gets done quickly. And then that patchwork is depended on by some other code, so if you change one thing, many others break.
Meepo Damn that hero is so hard , 5 years playing dota 2 and im still dont control it.
@TZAR POTATO I also understand the valid complexity differences of Viego vs whatever Dota had. Would love to see a Complexity of Character Design/Lore as well. It has been hard for me to get into Dota 2 multiple times due to unfamiliarity, as well as the realistic?? High medeival fantasy?? artstyle. Which doesn't really appeal to me as I like the muted cartoonish graphics and colors.
Never been into things that are spastic, robust, cluttered, and hard to easily depict. From character silhouettes to their individual design + vfx palettes and how they are designed for their intended performance get lost on me in Dota 2.
It was very difficult to differenciate even my HUD the last time I attempted (I think Mid 2021).
In addition to this, I am unsure about the surrounding environments of Dota 2. I don't hear a lot about the connected titles and how/if they are updated and in a similar polished state. I tend to play associating games due to character familiarity, or straight polish and dedication. I love TFT and the Ruined King "Riot Forge" Game bc I love the world that surrounds the in-game league characters.
i don't really get the question, could you sum it up for me?
@@TZAR_POTATO I'll have to use League characters here for reference then...
For example. Twitch is a chemically mutated Rat from Zaun. Territorial, but that's about it.
/ Sentient rat with a Gun
Quinn is a Ranger for the Demacian Military. With her bird, Valor, they go on scouting missions together.
/ Girl with Birb friend do things together
___
Sion is a man who slew the first King Jarvan with his dying breath. Hailed as a Hero he was resurrected under the Black Rose and is used as a weapon of war.
/ Hulking reanimated husk of a martyr
Trundle is a troll that wants to become their leader. He travel's through Lissandra's domain in search of a weapon of True Ice. Negotiates a deal for his service in exchange for the weapon. Becomes King of the Trolls.
/ Big troll, Big weapon, Big following
___
Taric, a former knight of Demacia, exiled and sentenced to Mount Targon. Upon reaching its peak, he is imbued with the Aspect of the Protector, and becomes Runeterra's shield against the Void.
/ Exile that returns to protect the world, even the ones that hurt him.
Tl;dr- the Breadth of these character's lore and character design. Varies a lot from simplistic to complex as well. And on the high end with Jhin, Ryze, Varus, Xerath for example. It can get pretty crazy, and some people attach themselves to these stories behind the design.
That's what I'm missing from the Dota 2 characters, my ease of connection to their design and being
@@reezeyraola4595 That wasn't really a question, nor was it a summary. I guess... great, good! I'm glad that you like those characters.
@@TZAR_POTATO .. I was asking for a character complexity of design and lore video/post from the Dota 2 characters compared to League. My bad. I'm lost in myself
@@reezeyraola4595 Have you seen my character design comparison video? It might answer that question, give it a shot and then ask again if it didn't do the task.
The Invoker clip doesn't use Sunstrike and it bothers me...
Sorry, I forgot! Must have missed it when recording.
League players: "we have aphelios, we can be complex too!!!!!! Also league popularity shits on dota 2, F all of u nerds!"
Dota players: "oh my god I am such a chad for not playing league. I am like higher being level brains for being able to play invoker without whiffing every 5 seconds. Jeezus I am such a genius, I am such a Sherlock Holmes, I am playing so strategical and complex, oh my lord, oh geez, oh darn. I bet I could write the Quran myself right now. Oh duuuude"
I agree, these wars are stupid. But this comparison will always happen simply because these two games are both successors to the original DotA, and both were made by the people who worked on DotA All-Stars. It's inevitable.
Hey this video was amazing, so pro and chill at the same time. Btw as a league player but a complexity enjoyer i rly do wanna play those crazy apm dota characters...
Give them a shot! game's free, and I offer coaching to anyone that wants it. I got guides for lol players trying dota, and everything!
Pressing your skills really fast is called facerolling btw
I like your voice
have a sub
also thanks for info this should help me settle on which game to hit immortal/challenger on
Thanks for the sub! Climb only if it's fun.
As a meepo player i can inform all of you, yes, it is hard. It becomes easy with practice. But still after a fast game of meepo i feel tired as if i played 3 normal matches.
Meepo and invoker mechanics become easy. But The mental energy needed is always high.
AGREED
1:40 background music?
saltwater
Thanks god we are starting to get more complexity on LoL too like Hwey
2:17 There are exemptions to this rule, see Treant Protector. Imho that is why he is one of the more powerful heroes/supports in this patch.
dota is all about exceptions to rules :D
Hi, I just finished the video and I agree with it for the most part. Dota is more about the macro game e.g. spiders, treants, illusions compared to League's hero complexity (we do have outliers). Good video.
@@ogjoepat dlad you liked it! I tried to stay simple enough so that league players can enjoy the dota info and dota players can understand the league info.
Keep it up mate, love ur content
Thanks for the support! All the video likes keep me making them. Shares are awesome too, but yeah, if I see the vids getting views, I make more vids!
Dota 2 treads switching is crazy already
damn that satlwater intro got me chills
I'm convinced no one ever has cracked the ultimate way to play Invoker. Most users rely on just 4-5 skills and that's it.
Agreed. Even many pros will use spells not as combos but just as situational answers. I'm convinced that's the right way to play. Open with a 3-4 spell combo, then adapt.
Miracle would be a pretty good one. His invoker highlights dates back from QE patch all the way to present. You can have a whole hr dedicated just for that. You can see everything from laning, item build, teamfighting, farming etc. At the highest level.
Amazing video brother, as a league player i really like how many dota heroes have interesting gimmicks, like controlling 5 characters at once or having 13 spells lmao
Wanna try it out?
You have to input 3 magic orbs to create one of those spells. You have to remember the right combination of the 3 for the right spell midgame during a fight, *for only one spell*
9:16 what’s the music playing here? I tried Shazam but it couldn’t find it.
Please, I need to know!
Invoker got screen time!
Let's go !!!!!!
Hehehehe, dude, carl is so cool, one of my favorite mage concepts from any media!
League players when they press 4 buttons and the other guy still has HP:
🤯🤯🤯
I've played tons of hours of smite and legue and trying to get into dota feels odd like dota is so different in terms od everything compared to the others its a fun game but I would say dota 2 has more going on at 1 time than the others and can feel overwhelming but once you get in the groove it feel much more camparible
yeah basically.
Probably hots has more going on with all the side objectives, but at least it has no items
The complexity of dota is not only about the heroes complexity, which is already the hardest among other moba, but the complexity of dota mechanic is also adding to it, even for me it is more appealing than heroes complexity. The timing of camp stacking, high-low ground rule, ton of items which make a reguler default hero into a completely new hero, and many other dota unique mechanic
I agree. Good thing this video has nothing to do with any mechanics in the game.
What's the song at the end of the video?
Sorry for long post but I play both games and I admit League of Legends is far more complex in hero kits, whilst a point and click champs in league feel old and outdated, releasing something like Tryndamere or Annie in Dota wouldn't have much complaints. The reason why Dota is more complex overreal is items. To make up for this there are way more active items, in League whilst you may have only 1 or 2 active items, in Dota it's basically standard to have 5 or even 6 items with an active meaning the complexity is more in item purchases than hero kits.
Whislt you mostly build same 3 items every game in League, in Dota there is a lot more flexibility as you aren't forced into picking items for stats as much (No AP or AD scaling abilites in Dota) so almost every item in the game is viable on any hero to an extent. And whilst in League
Dota is generally more chaotic with lv1 fights being a standard whilst in League invades are pretty rare and games last FAR longer due to inner towers being harder take and having fortification glyph (shared cooldown by all teamamtes thatt make sturcutres and creep temporarily immune), so you have a lot more planning to make.
Controlling other illusions (Clones) or other creeps like Warlock Golem's (Tibbers) or jungle creeps with Chen and Enchantress (yes you can do that) is mandatory and it's not unusually for high elo players to mico manage 5 clones at once with Naga Siren. Hell Meeop's entire kit is basically controlling 3-4 heroes at once and champions like Aphelios don't even match the skill floor and abilities that Meepo has.
Generally League is more 'balanced', abilities have FAR less mana costs (most heroes can only use spells 2-3 times in early game) and do way more damage due to having abilities ratio's. CC is way longer in dota and I laugh when League players complain about not being able to move when Shadow Shaman and Bane with Octarine core and refresher orb can basically perma CC you (3 second stuns are standard in Dota), items like Blink Dagger which is a flash on a 15 sec cooldown and has way more range or BKB which makes you hero immune to CC for up to 9 seconds or even refresher orb which resets all the all of your items and abilities. Most abilities are point and click which is how Linken's Sphere and Lotus Orb (blocks/reflect point and click item and spells) are considered good items
*'OP' Dota Hero Abilties*
Nature Prophet has a TF ult lv1 on 60 second cooldown, has ZERO second cooldown (you heard that right) at lv25 talent (NP is actually quite bad due to pro play nerfs)
Shadow Shaman has Malz ult lv1 for double the CC duration (Bane has same but only lv6).
Silencer ult is global 4.5-6 second point and click silence (no channel duration), has 100 second cooldown at max rank
Underlord ult is basically Ryze ult but with global range
Naga Siren ult is point and click aura around her that stuns enemies for up to 7 seconds with up to 1400 range (ranges same as league) balanced by not being able to take damage whilst stunned (used for getaway, chasing or setting up in teamfights). She can move during this and cancel any time.
Sniper can get up to 950 Auto attack range when he max his E (which is a passive at no cost to his dps) and usually can increase it by a good 400 with items and talents. Spell and Attack Range numbers in Dota are about the same as League so imagine Caitlyn with triple AA range. (Balanced by ADC not being a true class so no 100% crit and Sniper being super slow and squishy)
Spirit Breaker has Nocturne ult lv1 (without darkness) on a 17-11 second cooldown which stuns the enemy on contact and is completely global(although the travel time is way slower)
Doom ult is point and click 16 silence that prevents enemy from using items as well (not a channeling abilty), used to last 20+ with talents. (Balanced by the rest of his kit being fairly weak and pro play nerfs)
Tinker has free Refresher Orb as ult (look what Refresher Orb below) which refreshes the ult itself and can teleport to any strucutre at lv6 or Allied Hero after max rank
Alchemist has Mundo R on 60 second cooldown all ranks, 30 second cooldown when you consider the fact that it lasts 30 seconds
Enchantress and Chen can control and 'modify' jungle creeps and cast their spells. Helm of the Dominator item does the same thing.
*'OP' Dota Items*
Dragon's Lance is a item that is basically Ruunan's Hurricane without the charge, just +150 range passively. Can be upgraded into Hurricane Pike which gives same range and basically Galeforce active on 19 sec cooldown (can be used on allies and enemies as well)
Black King Bar (BKB) gives hero up to 9 seconds of CC immunity for 50 mana cost
Aghanim Scepter and Aghaninms shard litterly grants EVERY hero in the game a new ability or upgraded ability for relatively low prices.
Referesher orb refreshes cooldowns of all items abilites (no excpetions)
Aether Lens grant all items and abilites (not Auto attacks) 225 extra bonus range (Range units are about same in League and Dota) for 2275 gold (Gold prices also about the same but Dota having more expensive items). Some neutral Items (items you get for free by killing Jungle camps, also grant spell and attack range
Blink Dagger is Flash on a 15 second cooldown with same range as a Caitlyn R, Balanced by giving 0 stats for 2250 gold (most expensive item in the game that doesn't give stats) and not being able to use it if you're taking damage (Can't escape only engage)
Rod of Atos is point-and-click 2 second root with decent range and low cooldown (lower cooldown than Everfrost with around double the range). Can be upgraded into Gleipnir wich makes the root AoE and also gives a Stattik Shiv passive.
Eul's Scepter gives you or enemy Zhonya's stasis (exact same duration surprisingly) but for 23 second cooldown. Can be upgraded into Windwaker so you can move during the stasis (but not attack or cast spells and only you not enemies) for a 13 second cooldown.
And much more...
Most League players would delete the game if any of these were ever added to the game in their currents states but it's considered normal and balanced in Dota, hells Nature's prophet with his 0 second TF ult is one of the worst champs in the game due to constant pro play targeted nerfs.
If Dota players could see how much crit or CDR you can get in league they'd probably call it broken, most spells in Dota have way higher mana costs (120 is average mana cost of a spell) and higher cooldowns. Only Octarine core provides cdr (excluding from neutral items) and its 4600g and Deadulus and Silver's Eddge grant crit which don't stack and are very expensive. Most OP items are more expensive and gold efficiency is a big thing, Refresher Orb is like 20% gold efficent whilst Zhonya's is about 100%. Because most damage comes from one's kit or from stacking spells and attacks in teamfights which is why Dota have voice chat whilst League doesn't. To compare the two games for how good the kits are and saying one is better is ridiculous.
I think I got a TL:DR version of this.
""
Dota is more complex when considering items, league is when not thinking of items. Things in dota seem OP. Active powerful items are standard.
""
Let me know if I missed anything.
You didn't have to do Ogre Magi dirty like that
Literally 0 int
Don't forget the 70 minutes late game monster Arc Warden sigh...
Arc warden is very simple without items though.
@@TZAR_POTATO no, even for casual players that hero is pretty hard to play. Split pushing while maintaining your original hero is pretty hard, and don't forget that if you don't micro the clone and die that thing can give plenty amount of gold to the enemy.
@@Coram.Deo. It's compex for sure, but not on the scale of carl or panda.
Dota skill description: hero teleports anywhere after delay.
Lol skill description: hero ingrow into bush at the same time regrowing into choosen location.
You forget to mention tinker as one of the hardest to master...blink dagger and all his 3 damage skills and rearm takes mastery of positioning in order to make damage while unseen in the map (making use of the surrounding trees)
this is not a difficulty video
Nice One, Keep It Up Mate.
Then you add the active items from Dota without forgetting the extra ability added by Aghan Scepter.
Should do one that includes items
Already did.
i would've loved to see this video after Hwei was released on league. whopping 10 abilities (excluding spells, passives, etc).
I have a video on hwei, if you want to watch that one.
I love the peruvian music background 🇵🇪❤
*SUMMONER SPELLS ARE ITEMS.*
End of discussion.
I would say that most difference in complexity comes from design focus. In DotA, a lot of (if not most) abilities are a little bit clunky on purpose, so you have to either predict enemy movement, or hope that your team will make setup for you.
Or buy items to better use said abilities. I've seen a lot of newbie Pudges that buy Atos to hook.
no mention of Rubik?
Commenters mention him enough.
Imo a big part of the difficulty in league is how the game is way more explosive. Like you are so much more squishy and the fight are faster
+ u cant pump fake abilities
I would love to see a dota 2 legue of legends fusion game where it has all the heros and champions in one 5v5 map with Barron, the dragon, Roshan, and so on in their normal spots. Watch as the chaos of league heros using blink dagger and the cancer of legion Jungle returns. also, old techies would fit in the WTF tier due to his entire thing requiring a lot of time management and getting into the heads of the enemy team.
Lol heros wont fit in , dota heros are all broken , literally all of them , lol heros are are balanced , they will be weak as hell
My dude really put Yuumi in a complexity video
Sure did, I needed a baseline for the simplest league kits.
I believe DOTA heroes are harder to play overall. But not because they are more complex (because they're not, except for some stupidly difficult heroes), but because of the overall mechanics of the game.
I find LoL champions much easier to get into, which is actually great. They are more nimble and the game is more forgiving overall. Learning a new hero is exciting. You get to understand mechanics, design new build, etc.
In DOTA, it's a pain to learn a new hero. You already know the hours you're going to have to put in to understand how to play.
LoL champions have more complex mechanics embedded in each champion, which makes it very interesting. Something they should definitely add to DOTA. But those mechanics can be pretty simple and - on some champions - you don't even need to think about it.
The reason why DOTA heroes are harder despite being less complex is because:
1) DOTA heroes are much slower.
2) All spells are much more powerful, especially when it comes to crowd control.
3) Mistakes are much less forgiving in DOTA.