Thank you for the video. Having been a gigging musician for 30-years, I currently serve as a church lead guitarist for the past three years. Two years ago, I made the decision to not pursue secular music and play in church only. I was not pressured by my church. This decision was the direct result of the impact Jesus has made in my life. Everyone’s circumstances and journey is different, and I’m not suggesting my decision is right or wrong. Seek first the kingdom of God and allow his Holy Spirit to work in your life. He saved me from a life of darkness. Love to you all.
As a 40+ year musician,and as Highly Sensitive Person/Prophetic Intercessor/Psalmist, I COMPLETELY Understand and Honor, youre attitude!!! I said ALL of that about myself, NOT to brag/boast/ or draw attention to myself, BUT to highlihgt, why I play/Pray----- music, is first Worship,then prayer and ministry---first to The Father and then to others...... Letting His Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven can come through music...... BUT msic is omly 1 of the ways to Worship. thnx soooooo much Bro. Crump for youre ministry to me. Blessings and sweet sleep. bro. Chaz. P.S.--- there is a Specific- Office/ anointing, I walk in, I am a King David, type ----- and still learning Humility and will wash the feet of others.
Even with my minimal music skills, I have been invited to play in secular bands. I declined as I believe being a Christian playing secular music with it's worldliness, not to mention a club itself, and getting paid was not a good decision. That's just me. Once in a great while, I get to play in a musical. I know my minimal skills will not get me in christian ministry, but it's nice to play for the Lord - when I can.
I have formed my own beliefs that differ from Christianity, but I have been a Christian and studied the Bible. When someone has a gift from God, such as musical talent, it is that person's responsibility to use that gift to help as many people as possible. So I would argue that any church who denies a musician from playing secular settings is denying that musician from their sacred duty
I’m self taught musician so I learn to drum at church and I have decided to only play music at church or Christian music period. It’s a personal dedication to the Almighty ! In my case.
@@jumbojimbo3601musician shouldn’t be in the club? Come on man that’s cold. Y’all can pray and believe in your god but don’t bring us down to your level. Music is a gift open your mind abit. such a ridiculous thing to say.
@@jeffhayesexperiment I would never bring you down Brother, just encourage you, I meant musicians who worship God, not every musician. You are correct though, playing instruments is definitely a gift!
I’ve been a church musician for years, and I played for years in an event, dance-band (weddings, winery events, etc). I never felt that was a moral contradiction. However, if a club gig promotes promiscuity, drug/alcohol abuse, etc, then I don’t think it’s appropriate for church musician to do. Pick one.
@melvincole1711 That is not the difference. The difference is made by the message, the goal and the motivation. Many of you guys agree to this dualism. I will come back to explain, I'm busy now. But I gave you a clue and will wait for you to come to your senses. This was a superficial message which reveals a strong bias for the world in the disadvantage of Christ. Don't you know that the World and Christ are opposed? Wake up! I will write more soon.
I'm a church musician myself, being on a journey of spiritual growth through the Holy Spirit. So I've been struggling with this topic, whether I should be open to play secular music and gigs or not. One day God made me aware that most media (TV shows, books, movies, music etc.) are created with opinions, values and "truths" that are from the world, or in other words that mostly contradict God's truths and how God wants us humans to live - btw, even love songs do not necessarily reflect how God intended love to be. Since media are strong in influencing our thoughts and our attitude (hence our heart) on a concious and subconcious level, we better be careful with what kind of content we consume, generally speaking. That being said, I personally do not feel comfortable promoting wordly values that contradict God's values through a powerful medium such as music with my musicianship. Clearly, as christians we are not always aware which content is against God's will, but at least I would try to avoid promoting "the bad stuff". So it is less about the venue but more about what message we promote as christians through our work. And as musicians this issue is even magnified since our work touches hearts of the public (respectively larger groups of people). If we go one step further, the question then is which venues or gigs are fine with christian music being played by you and your band? And who is OK with you declining requests for secular songs and still let you have the gig? The strength of your faith shows here: are you faithfull to God and do you trust that He actively provides for you?
As a pastor and a musician myself, I think one thing that many churches fail to consider is that there is a huge difference between a musician and a minister of music even though we use the term interchangeably. Musicians can be great at their craft but you can't hold them accountable for knowing if the lyrics of the worship song speaks to the congregation or if the songs set the atmosphere for the preached word. That is what Ministers of Music should know. I hope this helps someone. Be blessed.
I use to think that playing for a church was a good for the soul but in actually its a pimp situation they would use me and not get paid ..one day a bass player got a check and I said how did you get paid and we been here since day one and nobody in the band is getting paid ..his reply was well I'm the band director..that's when I said I don't need to be directed I graduated from arts highschool and went to a college to study music I can even sight read did you know that..he said well tell the pastor ..so I went and said how come we are not getting paid like the new bass player/ director..he said he doesn't have a job like you leon I said listen it's not like that you gotta understand I work all week to get up Sunday early not only that I actually help with the stage set up I help out with the wires etc that is work on my day off ...he said you need to seek the lord on that mindset leon ...I said ok ..that's when I realized my worth and left I been doing professional music ever since and getting gigs and guess what Jesus still loves me .I nolonger desire to play at all for no church since they don't want to half pay us anyway ..so I'm ok with that I just do my jazz and secular shows and I'm happy 😂 God is indeed good all the time
If we as church musicians would spend alot more time in the alter seeking after God's will to be made real in each service , and for the anointing to be on each singer and musician we would all see a huge change in our services if someone else gets paid and I don't so what ; I am called to be a worshiper first ... God will provide he always does
"WOW" I really didn't have time for this response ( but I was compelled to say something with LOVE and UNDERSTANDING on both sides) here we go. 1. I have been playing bass for ("WOW" 40 years) "me I live to play not play to live" I'm 64 year old and I still have some groove in me (funny) 2. There are some stupid crazy good musician out their ( some for them read and some don't) I know young kids in church, perfect pitch and are playing at a professional level and most them are humble and I get it ( I was paid for my craft because deacon sit down and said to years ago (said) are you getting paid, I said NO SIR, he why not, I said I don't want to be paid, he said BOY how much do you batteries cost strings, power cord, your time learn these songs and travel to the other chruchs etc on) and before could say anything, BOY these churches destroy you because of your kindness get paid (funny) so I talk to the minster of music, and said how much you asking for and I said $25, he laugh and say okay NOTE: be careful what you ask for (funny) but over time people know you and you skill and they will give you offers (if you are getting paid be on time and know your songs), I STOP ASKING FOR MONEY YEARS AGO BECAUSE I and I"M SAYING ME (I start playing because I just love to play and GOD was blessing me even more). 3. All churches are different (Just do GODS work and you will be blessed) , now not getting paid, I still maintain my respect for the Pastor and He's or Her calling, but I did have a say on some for those events. NOW I recall an event where the paster had a big event way out of town, and when it was over (3 hours later) this older woman (ELDER) in the church handed my a yellow envelop ( was packing my gear and trying get on the road) while going down the road I open the envelope ("WOW") $500.00 I almost roll the truck. 4. I have never compared myself to the MINSTER OF MUSIC, most of them are again perfect pitch and they hear everything, I have seen there valve and I think they deserve everything they get ( they have regular and spent most of there off time in the church) (I LOVE THE SINGER, I don't go there) (FUNNY) 5.As a basses all I going to say bassist Andrew Gouche , Tony“Chicago” Russell and Anthony Crawford etc. (Jamareo Artis is a Gosple bassist) check him out and just like the other bassist mention there are all HUMBLE...... LIVE TO PLAY GOD BLESS
@@leonpressley6882 Yes, yes He is!!! I understand where yiou are coming from......... BUT others are coming from a diff. direction! Our "PAY-OUT" is the smile on Jesus's face--- souls in heaven--- and joy and contentment in our hearts forever....... things $$$$$$, cant buy!!! But yes Leon, we love you, we just dont agree with you.
We had musicians in our church that played at clubs and they would come to church hung over sometimes. One time the organ player played a riff from a scary movie 🎥 during the offering and laughed. So as a praise leader I feel it’s really important who plays for you.
It is all based on modern tradition, not the Bible. As I have commented before- 30-plus years as a professional musician who also played in church. Pretty much *never* got paid in church, pretty much *always* got paid everywhere else. Different but related story: One cult-like church that a former/ex-fiancé of mine attended (which made her break up with me, due to my… so-called “worldliness”), was always talking down on me and other Christian music pros. But guess what they did when Phillip Bailey of EW&F was supposed to come for a visit? An extra-super-cleaning of the church, extra music rehearsals, and rolling out that proverbial red carpet!!! To add insult to injury, the worship leader at the time, the cultic pastor’s right-hand man, who was always telling me how wicked it was to be… y’know, making enough money to eat, wound-up leaving the church years later to start a Dave Matthews cover band. He broke ties with the pastor, because he wouldn’t make an exception for this guy. I love the Lord! The church, made up of people, on the other hand, is often quite messed up…
I agree completely! I am a full time musician and would love to play at a church again but refuse to tolerate this attitude from any church. I am called to provide for my family and will do so legally and ethically!
Hey @paulgrether5631, I left a comment on this video a few minutes ago. Maybe it opens up a new perspective on this topic. Would be glad if you could take a look at it.
One cannot bring positive change to the church by leaving it. This is the basic message of the Cursillo movement. Overcome fear. Have faith in God, not man.
I agree. For me as long as the musician is not acting of the world (drinking, smoking, getting drunk,etc) then for me it’s okay. As a Christian it’s important to be a light in the world.
3:19 Very anointed musicians with the strong profound God-given foundation are also meant to play and sing in other places as well. Don't get me wrong, those aforementioned musicians ARE talented and gifted. But pastors who apply cultural pressure to them saying "these musicians should be about God only" may be a sign that something else is going on in their hearts. Even after being classically trained and grown for nearly 2 decades, I have experienced cultural pressure myself to where my potential was limited to only pleasing the Baptist church for 3 years, and I was not allowed to expand my performance experiences in restaurants, clubs, etc. May these anointed musicians share their gifts by the highest calling of God everywhere they go!
There is a 3rd question that should be asked and is probably more important. Should professional musicians play in church, as it is a lot of work? Working on the Sabbath or Shabbat is Biblically prohibited whether paid or not. It's a day of rest, rather than all the garbage that may go on in a church setting including church politics and other discouragements. If it were solely to do good without all the rest that would be one thing. Also, the sound crew has to work and in many cases the treatment they have received is absolutely horrible.
I wasn't a musician but I served in the church some years ago. The experience I had with pastors and associate ministers were they thought they owned me. GOD had just blessed me with a new job that doubled my annual income. They tried to dictate me at church as well as at my house. Yes I drunk beer during a Mike Tyson fight and they held it against me. Well I've been gone from that church for nearly 23 years. I haven't gone to visit it neither. I'm enjoying your videos my Brother. Keep it Real 💯
What's the difference between a musician playing in a club or for a party vs. the pastor going to basketball & football games? Both places serve alcohol. This was the situation I went thru at my home church back in the late 90's.
All facts. The church puts so much on musicians. And now they want us to work for free at church AND not work outside of the church. It’s ridiculous. Blessings to ya Terence for another quality video.
I think it depends what church you go to, I was once part of a church where it was ridiculous, the commitment levels that were expected and zero pay, the church I’ve been part of for almost 2 years now, I don’t get paid and don’t expect to get paid, I have a full time job for that, yet I’m part of the music/worship team and when not on stage I’m at the back of the church doing either the sound desk or mostly the sound and audio for the livestream, and I enjoy all if it 🤷🏻 and if I was to do a music venture outside of my church, they wouldn’t have a problem with it
@@jesuszayas7 i absolutely do not see playing at church as just a job. I am very faithful to the church I play at. When I’m not playing, I assist in whatever is needed. I attend functions with the members. I travel and attend programs without getting paid. However I am a paid musicians that was sought out by the congregation. That makes the difference in the free vs paid issue. But the main issue in this video is about regulating musicians schedule outside of church, particularly when a church also wants you to play for free. I know musicians that are just musicians. They don’t work other industries. So they should be able to use that skill to make a living, ESPECIALLY if the church wants them for free.
@@jumbojimbo3601 People still have bills to pay. Most churches aren't going to pay enough to cover rent, so you better be opening your home for them to squat in if we're gonna act like sitting and clapping on the benches for free is the same as going to school to learn a craft, possibly get into debt, and perform exclusively at a place that doesn't pay them for their efforts off the stage are the same thing.
This subject is literally why our platform exists - because generations of musicians and creatives are still being rejected by those we serve on Sundays because we also earn a living (like every other member of the church) outside of it. Your definition of "secular" is precisely what people miss in this whole discussion - that there is nothing in the world that does NOT involve God, which means we carry our gifting into the world, while we're not of it. We don't even use the word 'secular" in our materials. We say "mainstream arts and entertainment" because that's what it really is. Thanks for addressing it - even though we wish we could put this argument to bed.
Great video Terence. I have no problem playing secular and sacred music. That said, I’m very conscious of what I play in BOTH settings because both can sometimes contain subject matter that contradicts scripture.
EXACTLY. Yep, a lot of "Church" songs are theologically off kilter. When I play "secular" gigs I always choose songs that are inoffensive, sometimes humorous, sometimes heartbreaking, sometimes challenging (usually something I've written with my own slant on things), but try to always be respectful of everyone and God's universe and order of things He has created.
We should follow what Jesus said and not you; go unro ALL the world and share the good news. I have people show up at my church who came because they saw me and talked to me at a bar. PRAISE GOD!
I believe this topic’s a bit difficult. I been around musicians all my life and have done some gig’ing in the past myself. I had the exact same views and argued that position every time I visited my Parents house who are pastors.. but overtime, I’ve come to see and understand the side of the argument. In end, I believe it has to be treated on a case by case basis. Everyone that has EVER done any type of gig’ing knows that not all jobs are equal. As any believer should know, there’s just some places a God fearing person should not be regardless of the money. Secular jobs are not the issue, it’s the environment you’re being placed in and and sometimes the ungodly vibes your talents are used/being paid to create.
Thank you, brother, I have fought with this for so many years, I don't desire to play bars anymore but I sure have played my share, now at 65 I just want to play some pizza parlors, steak houses and senior dances, you are a blessing,
I'm a sound engineer, and my best work has been in clubs. There are so many unchurched and de-churched people who need answers and guidance. My best work was being a christian at a club.
That's the same thing my sonsaid. He's a speaker, poet and author. He told me he was received much better than he was at the churches and his presentations were Christian. He said the churches are so judgemental/hypocritical, yet they participate in the world's sector and do unimaginable things in their "social circles ". WOW again
Playing bars involves lots of worship as well. People would always come up to me an praise me and shake my hand before I was a christian. I loved it! They would even stand up and clap as I approached the bar lol.... I received a standing ovation once where there has never been a standing ovation at a High end blues jam.... the waitress came and congratulated me! Glory to God was not mentioned. Now I realize how egotistical it can be... how addicting it can be.... I needed major cleansing from it. God tool me oit of it and put me in a place to recover from it. Now that I give praise to God in everything... I kind of wand to play the blues that I used to... but when I listen to the songs I used to... I notice that the musicians never gave praise to God once. And alot of the aongs oht there have deeper meanings sometimes against our Father in heaven. So I still feel.uneasy about playing these "secular" songs. But I do wamt to use thos talent to praise God . Because an account will be given of the talents He gives on how we used it!.... I still write original material though and I pray and ask God of it's in His or will... it's a hard place to be right now....
Agree 100% on this. I have always performed both in a street band and in church worship without conflict. I have heard of some churches condemning this but have never experienced it. It is not a contradiction as long as you carry your faith with you and don't abandon it at the club door in favor of wild sex, drugs, and rock and roll! From what we know, Jesus was a Jewish carpenter and there is no evidence that he *only* performed carpentry work for the Synagogue. It is far more likely he worked as a general carpenter building homes, chairs, tables, cabinets, and other projects in his community for the secular world.
I think that there’s one elephant in the room that haven’t touched on in this video. Typically the message of a portion of the “secular” repertoire puts forth or portraits way of life that’s not particularly christian. How does playing in a band that presents these songs, not equate to advertising the lifestyle portrait in the song. Can the same well produce sweet and bitter water?
Love your video’s man. I am full-time gigging musician. And am in our church worship team. Love it. And in my life, the balance for me is so needed! ✝️🙏🏽😃👍🏽
Lots to unpack, everyone in this situation needs to go to scriptures first for guidance, not in terms of the specific situation but in principle. Some who, like the pastor in the example, may want to impose a level of holiness they aren’t living by are not the final authority in the matter. With that said, we must understand that music like the spoken word is very powerful and when it’s used correctly has the ability to transform a heart for Christ, unlike the work the plumber or any other tradesperson may perform. Blessings
I would say that as a Christian there is nothing wrong with playing a secular gig, unless you need to compromise your Christian values to do so. For example, I personally would not play a gig where they would have scantily clad women dancing provocatively on stage, but I wouldn’t say no to a secular gig just because it’s secular. We should not compromise our values for money. We need to use judgement and follow our convictions in everything we do, and it’s not going to be the same for everybody. We should pray for wisdom to make sure we aren’t doing something that would be displeasing to God.
If churches can pay Pastors I see no reason why church musicians should not be getting paid as well. Both Pastors and Musicians are always on stage in church services, conferences, crusades, etc etc
@@ivanrioblaAnd the Bible says? Seriously? Have you actually read it? Musicians in service of the temple were paid. Churches teach tithing all the time but everyone in the service of the temple was provided for.
When making arguments, particularly for the Christian community, it's crucial to base them on Scripture. When you have a platform like a RUclips channel, your advice can influence many. Without scriptural support, your guidance may mislead your audience, leading them astray. Scripture clearly advises against mixing light with darkness (2 Corinthians 6:14). Consider the environments you endorse or participate in. For example, working in a secular place like a store isn’t inherently problematic. It's about how you conduct yourself there. However, when you're seen performing in a club, engaging with activities contrary to Christian teachings, it might compromise your witness as a believer. Matthew 6:24 teaches us that 'No one can serve two masters... You cannot serve both God and money.' This highlights the danger of pursuing financial gain at the expense of spiritual integrity. Furthermore, Ephesians 5:11 instructs us to 'Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them,' which applies to the choice of venues and the nature of the performances. Singing or playing secular songs that contradict biblical values, especially in settings that mock or trivialize sacred texts, does not reflect the light of Christ. Psalm 1:1-2 advises us to avoid the path that sinners take, which can be related to performing music that promotes messages contrary to biblical teachings. Remember, being a Christian musician isn’t just about making money; it's about aligning your actions with the Word of God. We are Christians first and then musicians. Your opinion on clubs doesn’t matter, what the word of God says does. 1 Peter 4:3-4 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do-living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.” Before creating content, especially aimed at believers, ensure it aligns with biblical wisdom. Simply dismissing concerns without understanding can be harmful. Strive to uplift and accurately represent the teachings of Scripture in your communications.
Up until a decade ago, I did club gigs while working as a church musician along with being a choir member and directing our youth orchestra. It was only upon entering seminary that I stopped gigging out, not because of beliefs but due to workload. I must be honest, at times I got more respect and love from club patrons and club musicians than my peers at my church. I love playing music, not for the adulation, but I have always loved music and making people happy. In my decades as a secular musician I had fewer drinks than I have fingers, I never played or drove anywhere high or inebriated, and I put in more rehearsal time with my secular peers than my religious peers. So, I do not see an issue with a musician that loves their craft playing in a secular environment. Especially when their church keeps limiting them and applying double standards.
I play both at church and outside of church. For me, it's about fulfilling an obligation. I'm on staff at church and I gig outside of church occasionally. Having said that, my first obligation is to playing at church, if a gig is going to conflict with that obligation, then I'll turn it down. Again, that's just me.
Bro.....I wish this video was available when I was a teenager. I would've been a better musician a lot sooner and made more money in the process. I let the church persuade me not to play anywhere. But when I asked for more money because I wasn't making enough to support my kids (I had 2 when I was 17 years old) they would say "Oh you're working for the Lord". They paid me according to my age and not according to my skill level. I was getting paid $150 a month back then!!! Meanwhile the pastor and his family all had nice luxury cars and trucks, wearing nice clothes. Church was paid for, so that wasn't an excuse. But I'm older now and learned better. I'm telling my son who plays not to let a church do this to him. He's one of the baddest drummers in New Orleans now. Thanks for this video man.
If some church member or pastor has this kind of attitude about a musician playing outside of church for secular entertainment, then THEY themselves shouldn’t ATTEND any secular entertainment. No secular movies (including at home), no secular music at all, no dances, no (gasp now I’m meddling) secular sports events, especially pros, no going on secular cruises, where you’ll undoubtedly be hearing secular music and entertainment. OOPS! Now I’m really meddling! The list goes on and on. Oh…and NO outside employment anywhere, where a store might sell objectionable items. Hey…don’t give me the excuse that you’ve got bills to pay. God will provide, without you ringing up somebody’s beer and cigarettes, or having to work on Sunday. And from the terribleness of some “worship” music nowadays, I’m probably better off playing Sweet Home Alabama for the 5387th time. You can’t have this “no secular music attitude, and have it both ways on everything else.
I am a 68 year old white guy that has been “playing guitar for Jesus” for 50 years. This is just me! I made a decision when I was 18 that I would only play music that honored God. Over the years I’ve done a few “secular” tunes but in spiritual context and also played “Jesus music” in a secular setting. Because of my own experience and others I just don’t “feel right in my spirit” playing in bars, etc. After all, a bar musician is really selling more alcohol for the bar owner! I can perfectly understand doing it though, especially if you really make it your career. Further disclosure, most of my life I’ve played in primarily “white” churches. They rarely pay musicians (sometimes keyboards) and white worship teams often suck. (Questioning in my head, I’ve put out thousands of dollars for my instruments and paid nothing while the church provides instruments for the keyboard player🤔) For about 5 years I was involved in black gospel, Sunday morning as well as a couple of traveling groups, one of which did CDs. It was a wonderful experience musically, I was often paid, but I blew out my left elbow with tendinitis 😢. I am playing again about 13 years later, but much less, I’m just getting older😉. Bottom line? It’s a personal decision about playing in clubs, etc. although there are moral choices that go along with that! If I was doing the choosing I think I would choose musicians with good moral character just as important as musical ability. Believe me, I’ve seen it all!😉 I’ve watched a few of your videos and a lot of things you are describing are from a “black church” perspective. I would also say the divisions are slowly coming down! PTL! There are definitely different traditions in the two, we need to try to understand each other. After all we will all be in the throne room worshipping the King someday!
""After all, a bar musician is really selling more alcohol for the bar owner! "" so do you think if you work at a department store and sell clothes for someone going to a bar or club to get drunk is the same thing ? Lol
@@JDawghasaTruck Yes ♥ im saying because you said something very important ""After all, a bar musician is really selling more alcohol for the bar owner! "" so Terence Fisher is compering any job to a musician when music has a lot of power.
@@JDawghasaTruck So people use this argument of "secular job" to say i can work in a club/bar with music after all you also have a secular job. (for exp) you work at a department store you sell clothes to the people that go the bars and clubs to get drunk
I agree, but with full respect to anyone you can't compare the jobs you mention to creating MUSIC or any ART form for that matter, is very possible SATAN was in charge of music or something similar, music has a lot of power, your using power with a gift from God. and yes with any job you exercise ways God can use his power, comparing music with anything is a bit complex
Yes. Agreed 100%! Also, I want to make a point that many secular corporations support LGBTQ and other organizations that a lot of religious groups are against and these are companies that Christians and other people of different faiths work at. Are they supposed to quit because of what their company chooses to support? How come they are not held to those same standards as musicians in ministry? At the end of the day - it’s still a JOB! And you need to work in order to eat.
I hear you brother loudly and clearly. I endured similar rhetoric at one time from several parishioners, whom I suspected were prompted by the formal staff to approach me since I am older than everyone else serving on the Worship Team by 30 years or more. One person went as far as to say, my playing outside the church caused them to stumble; thereby inferring, via innuendo 1 COR 10:31. Gross misinterpretation of scripture to be certain. Albeit, I enlighten those who would listen with several analogies, similar to what you expressed. Double and selective standards. I decided that I did not need to justify anything to anyone (If the doctors, lawyers, Information Technology, Systems Administrators manual labor workers, craftsman, etc, do not need to justify working in a secular environment, then there is no logical reason to apply this man made standard to musicians. I decided to discontinue serving on the Worship Team. However, my decision was based upon PHI 2:14 "Do everything without grumbling or arguing". It is significant to state, this rhetorical question "where do the naysayers think this musical experience was derived from?" Keep doing what you doing, it is sorely needed.
I don’t have a lot of exposure to much of this, but I’ll tell you that having visited my wife’s church whose bass player is WAY stretched out, and them knowing I’m a bass player… I’ve been asked to join their musical group even though they KNOW I’m in a gigging band. BUUUT.. it’s a very cool church. That being said, I can see the issues that you’ve mentioned. All of this is said with respect.
I am so glad to have found this channel and that you are talking about these issues concerning musicians. I feel like I missed out on so many opportunities because of this false belief .
Amen! I'm a professional musician from Finland and I have faced this subject all too many times. The most weird discussion was when a christian construction worker criticised me for playing in clubs and by that time he was working at a construction site where there was supposed to be a club. Like what? It's ok for someone to build a club but it's not ok for me to play in that club. Are you kidding? That was some 12 years ago. Now, fortunately, the things have changed at least a bit. Some members of my church even come to see me play in a club when they have a chance. They don't get drunk or stoned or anything but just enjoy live music. Some of them even have a dream to bring christian music to the clubs. EDIT: I gladly pay even for free in church if it's a musically interesting case like there was a latin music worship about a month ago: huge band with percussion players, brass and strings etc. I enjoyed every second and it was enough for me. But I'm a professional musician and I need to keep my family alive. I need gigs and concerts anywhere to do that. I'm not playing any cover gigs with for example satanic content etc. Playing some basic pop in a club is no problem for me.
Well said! To each his own but, I totally believe that my experiences in AND outside of church have helped me grow VASTLY as a musician! And yes, can you be a greeter at church AND at Walmart? You have to be 100% with your thought process if you're going to go there. I think there are a lot of us out there that maintain integrity wherever we play. It's just WORK, for me!
I played for a church, Harvest for Christ under a fail leader for well over two years. Put together a solid rhythm section together, put thousands dollars of my studio equipment in the church and was never paid a single penny and make matters worse the pastor gave out keys to the so-called church and members walked out with my expensive equipment and he didn’t give a damn about it. Never will I play for free again.
I was once asked by the pastor about playing secular music. I said that I was blessed to be able to go into the world and be an example for God. God has given me the strength to stay true to my beliefs and be a witness to his grace. The pastor was pleased to hear this and accepted my answer. At the time I was just giving him a quick shine to get him off my back but later when I reflected on this... It was a valid point.
Playing in clubs, restaurants, weddings, and studio work has helped me grow as a musician tremendously. Sure I got my fair share of blowback from the church. The fruit of it, I became a more relaxed player, less stressed, more skilled, 0 need for the church to fulfill any needs of accomplishment or performance. While I’m at church I have no other thoughts other than being present in the worship, while I’m in secular environments I have no other thoughts than being present in the music.
This is such a touchy taboo topic. I have been in the entertainment arena for over 40 years and in the Kingdom of God as a Gospel Artist for over 20 years. God saved me to touch the world not just the church. I had to realize my gift is to the masses and me using my gift to sing is touching lives in many arenas. Now I am cognizant of environments that promote behaviors that are contrary to the Bible and my beliefs. I don’t partake of those things. Just because I go to a restaurant that serves alcohol, I don’t drink. So should I not go because they serve liquor. How are you impacting the world with your gift in the arena that is deemed “secular”. So the church will try and use scripture to control musicians and singers, but that’s my job. We have to make a living to support our families. You and God be the judge. Not man! You maybe assigned to that industry to minister to others who may not know Christ. Just my two cents. Thanks for this video 🫶🏽
Yup, the problem is "money talk" - working at a church vs working not at a church - how about a priest invited to give motivation at office event? Now, what is the point of tithing and offerings? Seems Levi ministry should be clarified. Btw, I repented and stopped smoking not in a church, but while playing music and singing during my session as entertainer in Taiwan. So? Thanks!
Talk about stick and splinter issue with that pastor! I do not have any issue with musicians playing in secular places. As long as they attend church, I trust Jesus to work with them so that they choose which gigs to play in alignment with their faith. I do not think a bar / club is a good place for a christian to be, but that’s me. The parable about the 99 sheeps comes to mind. We should be careful pushing people away because of phariseic thoughts!
It's not dumb brother, your comparisons are biased. The church plumber who fixes pipes for secular people is not promoting sin or anything worldly. Music is a whole other animal. Music gets in your mind and spirit, accounting doesn't. Your good could be evil spoken of. One of those people from the club or party may be at church the next Sunday and see you up there playing worship music. It may confuse them. You don't have to gig. Teach music. Produce themes and jingles. Gig at Christian events (weddings, parties, etc) Come out from among them and be ye separate is a serious thing to think about. This really shows me how nonchalant and unsacred the mindset is today. Not just musicians but the church in general
Hold it for a moment, here's what's happening, most church pastors hire musicians because they can really play the music and get people up and dancing and get the BS shouten going on. 8t the pastor's fault that these unconverted musicians are in the churches every Sunday mornings after leaving their Saturday night gigging. Stop Hiring musicians who are [ NOT ] believers! As a matter of fact, do not allow regular church members to play nor sing if they have not proven to be converted. Musicians playing gospel music and can't even resight a scripture? It the pastor's fault .
I agree. I participated in a worship team for several years as a lead guitar player as well as a tech support. I worked in the club scene as a live sound engineer so being able to play in the music worship team was a nice balance for a while. I didn't get paid for it, it was a small church. I was glad to help. That said, when it came time for the church to put together a multi-stage community block party I volunteered my sound system and then I found out that they also hired a sound company to handle another stage. It just sent a bad message. I suddenly felt like I was being used. There was no communication to me of hiring a sound company, I found out later and I was leading the coordination of the music event. I gracefully moved out of the church. I didn't move away from Christ but I am weary of the desperate users of those who claim they follow Christ. I'll go to church here and there but I will no longer support a contemporary music worship.
I'm 51. My whole life musicians have gotten into church bands because it's guaranteed band experience. From learning how to practice as a band, and weekly gigs. A lot of guys I know were able to learn the production side too, from sound to lights and effects.
These are the things that drive people away from the church. Very judgemental behaviour. Double standards. I think that musicians and pastors should have equal pay. Often people connect more to the music than the sermon. Christians have become spoiled with free live music every Sunday morning. Often you don’t even give a “thank you”. It’s just expected that’s it’s good, free, pure, holy music. Does knowing that the worship leader was at a bar the night before take away from that? Great question! Thanks for making us think about it.
I’ve decided not to play on the church stage as a routine. I’ll play once or twice as a solo artist to share my talent but, joining the praise team ain’t in my plans. I personally (my cross to bear) feel as a musician leading members to the lord, I don’t wanna be judged by the members. I should care but. Some folks aren’t there to understand we ain’t perfect. So, I just chose to play my way and stay out of the Paster’s way.
All due respect but everything you’ve said is “I”, what about what God wants you to do, and stuff what the congregation thinks, IF you think they’re judging u, well, sorry to say, but you’ve actually judged them, and yes I’m a musician and play at my church
If you're performing music that promotes sinful messages, lyrics, and themes that are unbiblical, then it seems pretty obvious why the church would, and SHOULD frown upon that. There is nothing unbiblical about greeting someone at Walmart, or doing someones taxes-- that comparison is disingenuous and obviously not the same thing. The gentleman is feigning ignorance, and understands perfectly well the difference. Look if you don't want to follow Jesus, then don't follow Jesus. Because it's clear what he commanded of his children.
Playing in clubs doesnt mean they're playing in strip clubs. If i lay bricks at a church, can i lay bricks at a shopping center as well? Yes! If someone is a musician, they need to maintain their skills somewhere.
I grew up playing in church and quartet gospel and recently started playing in a R&B band and told a deacon as much his comment was that i would fall away from the church . So my counter was first jesus met the unsaved not in the church no. 2 . Unsaved or folk in the place i played in folk witnessed how i carried myself, i wasn't in a woman, s face , you wouldn't see me drunk or act contrary to what profess . So in a way i witnessed to them how i carried myself while enjoying exhibiting my craft and watching folk getting pleasure from it.
Makes me wonder about professional athletes who are Christians. The football and basketball games etc are usually televised with tons of commercials about beer and vacations in Vegas where "what happens there, stays there". Also, beer is sold in the stadiums themselves.
I’ve been in music ministry a very long time and let me tell you this a lot of the pastors and musicians who think like this they never grow they stay in the same spot forever real talk
One thing that I've heard said is,"Don't pimp your gift out to the world,". While I understand that and respect it, I think the church has been the biggest pimp. For example they want you to know multiple styles, play things on the fly, and play all this for free. This is asinine because it takes work and maximum effort to be proficient at these things. My take if you want musicians to think 🤔 about where they use their talents be sure to show them love and appreciation. I mean both in word and deed. Lip service is just that lip service, but it's s our actions that show our ❤️ s to people. One more point, musicians also have gear that costs them money so it's only natural they would want to be compensated.
I guess it depends on the church/denomination. I've been playing music at church for almost 30 years and never *once* have gotten any flak by clergy or staff about playing or making music outside of church. I mean, folks from my church have gone to my band's gigs on Friday and Saturday nights and ask me when I'm playing out again. Another musician, who plays in the Spanish-language ensemble in the church I'm currently playing at, shared me videos of his Cumbia band playing at parties. I thought it was cool. If God has blessed you with musical talent, then use it!
In my denomination, I have seen people critical of the notion of paying musicians. And if they are paying you, sometimes there is an attitude that implies receiving any payment at all for what you do, no matter how small, is a huge bonus, and that you should consider yourself lucky to receive any money at all. Outside of my denomination at an interdenominational Bible study, I was told by someone that I should not get paid to do church music, and that I should not accept music work outside of the church. So I see thiese 2 issues as a real problem.
Exactly. It depends on the church. Me and my wife always wanted to play in church, but we weren't allowed by many churches because we perform outside the church. We are not even playing in nightclubs. We perform in hotels and restaurants. This is our business, and we do it full time, but somehow, the people from those churches believe that music is something sacred and that can only be done to worship God. They never could back that up with the bible. Me and my wife don't go to church anymore for many other reasons. This was one of them. I have a lot of bad experiences with Christians. A lot of them are hypocrites. Atleast the ones I met. Anyways, this is my experience and I know other people may have good experiences.
I'm a worship pastor - and totally agree with you! Now if you are habitually playing until 3am the day before you need to be at church at 7am it might be an issue we need to address. Especially if you are falling asleep at the keys or snapping at your bandmates haha! But as long as you can serve faithfully on the days you say you will - I say get out there and get more experience and be a light to others around you!
Sir pastor, what if the musicians is playing/singing a secular music that is say... immoral, sexual - literally anything that would be condemn by Jesus. Ofc if they're just playing for a music without these immoral things, I would say its okay.
@@arthurels5832 I agree with you there! I'm personally fine with "secular music," and I don't think music should really even be categorized one way or the other (in terms sacred vs secular) as God created music - period. But totally agree with you about the CONTENT of that music. If someone on my team was playing "gross" music and saying or singing things all week that are in direct contrast to what Jesus would want us to sing about or celebrate, but then putting on a good "church face" to play for church, we'd have a conversation for sure. I'd approach the conversation with grace for sure, and try to see their motivation in why they want to play both for church and music that they know Jesus wouldn't love.
Some excellent points. I gotta say, God's hand is all over SO much secular music. Bars .. concert halls .. stadiums .. Isn't THAT where God would logically present his finest work? Where it can be displayed without pretense? where it can deeply move and heal lost souls who'd never dream of going to church? Gawd, I'm basically a Christian, I pray daily, and I am blessed ... but I've always despised the church. Solid video. 🤙Thanks.
I play at the church where i assist, and i work in construction for my dayli life, you decide wich one you wanna serve, cuz light and darkness its separate! And this needs decisions and convictions! God bless! 🙏
@@mikebarker9187Of course I do. But don’t you think I can have other jobs? Also, God has a call for each and everyone of is. That’s how I got mine. I am not criticizing who does different.
I played For 10 years in clubs and it was not a good atmosphere for righteousness. Bad communication corrupts good morals. Plus there are spirits in you when you leave that can attach to young impressionable hearts and minds in church. Bless you. I have play for multiple churches the last 42 years and I have enjoyed it for the most. Some payed and some didn’t. I never asked. But, I have a business and I didn’t need to play in nightclubs anymore because the Lord blessed my business. I paid my tithes and gave offerings and served and God blessed my business. If the people who think they need to do something else to play to gain money would just pay their tithes God will bless them for being faithful. That’s how you know you a living for God and not just for the gig. Thank you for talking about this brother, it needed discussing. (My Opinion).
Most musicians learn to play and improve in bands, they can be small garage bands, touring bands, or full blown orchestras - so they would have had a secular background. We need Christians in all places of work. Hopefully they will keep their Christian values on the type of music they play and lyrics they sing. Should church pastors have secular jobs.....
There should be nothing contraversial about it. I earn a living playing bars but also lead worship. I have to pay the bills and its also a creative outlet that wouldn't always be appropriate when leading worship. Besides Jesus would more likely be hanging out in the bars and the streets, if he was walking around today.
Jesus would be seen in secular places sharing the words. But do note, he does not 'participate' in it. So then the question is, you or whoever is in a bar. Are you preaching the gospel or just there?
What's the difference if a plumber gets paid to fix a plumbing issue at a pub and a musician gets paid to perform at the same pub. But then I've known members who didn't think preachers ought to be paid for their work
Pastors not being paid? Deng. Do they know that they do much more than preach on a friday/sat/sun church? They have to lead the church, know the members, visit them regularly (they're basically a therapist tbh) and pray for them and help out with w/e drama they may be going thru etc. A pastor can't have another job and pastor at the same time. They won't have enough time to commit to both. It would be like asking them to pastor but be homeless at the same time (no offense).
@@arthurels5832 A dedicated musician, meaning they went to school for it or have no other trade skill they've studied, also has to put in consistent hours of practice off the stage and in rehearsals. They've got to learn new standards or compose them on their own, conduct recording and mixing sessions for church albums, and also pay to maintain their gear. A set of bass strings alone can be over $30 a pack. It all adds up, so it's crazy when someone expects a full-time musician to not work anywhere else but a church that doesn't pay them enough to even cover the rent.
The dialogue can happen here. Since the argument is weak to you, what's your defeater of this argument? Do you have a better argument for the contrary?
Back in the day, I have been kicked out MANY times for play secular music. But you know what, I did not feel bad. WHY? Because none of the churches that kicked me out were paying me. The only musician that gets paid is the Music Minister/Leader/Organ/Piano. Every other musician that is dedicated to a church has to be a member and is expected to volunteer. I play Jazz/Fusion/Funk/Rock/Country/Brazilian. Good enough for me to be invited to play. Not good enough to get paid. In the end, I will occasionally help out on an event. But I have not been a church musician for over 20 years. We will not even go into the church poli-tricks. Another video...... More power to the musicians that put up with the people and the environment......
Perfect analogies!! If you have a relationship with GOD, HE should lead and guide you. I would have no issue playing in a club as I am not a drinker/smoker and would not be affected by those types of things synonymous with clubbing etc. but I know others who would be. Basically, know who you are and let GOD do the test!
As a musician I would love to be in a band and play outside of church. There’s just one problem, the majority of that work would be in a bar and I would have to be out until around 2:00 am Sunday morning. I could never be sharp for church Sunday morning. Plus I have a real problem with being in bars. It’s just not a place that a follower of Christ should be UNLESS your there to share the Gospel. Playing pop songs in a bar is not that. That’s just me though. I don’t see an issue playing for birthday parties or family get togethers that are morally sound gatherings. It all depends on the environment we have to be in. And your analogy about plumbers, accountants, electricians etc. doesn’t really match here. Accountants dont typically work in a crowded bar on Saturday nights in the middle of a party.
Thank you. I feel God has called our family band out of the church to encourage the world and even do music and comedy that isn’t “necessarily” Christian, but we want all we do to still be in line with Gods Word morally. Be in the world even if not of the world.
After reading some other comments, just fyi. Gigs that’s comprise our Faith or ask us to participate in things not in line with Gods Word and morals are turned down. Just like anyone who is not a musician, we have to be wise about who we work with and for.
I've had people tell me they're disappointed to see me "renounce my faith" by gigging. Which is a whole different issue, but it seems that quite a few of the people complaining over the lack of Christian art are also the ones stifling it.
Thank you, my brother for spreading your knowledge on this issue. Once again, it's the church steppington being judges and judging not only musicians but people as well. I'm going to say this if the church hired me to do a job. I'm going to do that job, just like if anybody else hired me to do that job. I'm going to do has nothing to do with my religion or my soul. Me being hired anywhere is not biblical or contradicts anything in the Bible. You see, these pastor's Dick is in trustees. Like to be on high horses because they hold a title. But yet they're not even biblical. Even the levites in biblical times were paid. That's all they did all day, so if you want to pay a musician to be at church all day, you need to pay him a living salary that he can be a church all day. Can you say Mike drop?
If people have an issue with ministry musicians making money elsewhere with their talents, then they should all pool together to pay that person to be exclusively employed by the church.
@arthurels5832 I agree with you there. We should always give God our Best! And please show some respect and dress up a little. You're made in His image. ✌️
Excellent videos, brother! You can tell you have a logical understanding of the way a skilled tradesmen operates. The church would fair better if they would be more accepting of these craftsmen and their ventures.
The point many musicians miss about this subject is that music is more than just music in church. Music is MINISTRY!! This is a very important part of setting the atmosphere for the presence of God. The problem is that nothing is regarded as sacred anymore. There are musicians who are minstrels who are prophetic and prophecy using instruments. Let's not forget Satan himself was an angel with a musical gift and now he uses it to invoke fear, torment, destruction, and lust. These are the same things promoted within secular music and atmospheres. So, ask yourself, is it OK to play for church and the club? This is equivalent to mixing Coke and water. Do you prefer to mix? Lastly, doesn't God deserve our best? Is everything all about filling your pockets? If you can be faithful offer few, God can make you ruler over many. Matthew 25:23
Great advice , my wife and I perform regularly and perform secular music in our set as well as gospel and originals . We don't perform any song we feel uncomfortable with as lyrical content is so important. Performing at secular gigs is ministry as putting the word of Christ in our set plants the seed in people that would not come to a gospel concert , we see broken people in some of these venues we play at . Sometimes these people don't realise but they are waiting for the lord's word. As Christians our ministry should be everywhere
I was a professional paid Dancer in the musical theater. I was asked to leave the choir because my 'acting' and dancing role was a bellydancer. What does that have anything to do with my relationship with Jesus and the right the praise? I had dinner with a friend one night. I was feeling lowly about this. I stopped in a local bar to hear some live music! And there were the top choir leaders drinking, smoking and tearing up the rug! We're all just people. We're all sinners. I don't care who you are. That church drummer isn't a better Saint then the drummer in the club. His sin just has a different smell.
I’m not a Christian but paid and played in a Christian church. First day the director said many don’t want you here . Lol I just signed a year contract and I honor my word.I teach at a school drums for 3 years now and during that time. I never take money without doing the best I can for everyone balance of music etc. I make more now because of more time at there practice and two performances each week. Mostly only the preacher live the love your behavior to all.
FACTS. It’s not so much happening now like it had 20-30+ years ago. But what’s happening now is kind of shaming musicians on taking on secular music gigs. Not saying you can’t do the gigs but saying you have enough money playing here alone( along with your secular day job for most).
It's easy to paint with broad strokes, and there are plenty of stereotypical examples, but these situations come in layers. I get to play guitar, bass, or drums at a Christ-centred church that is only big enough to afford a pastor and a few ministry staff members. None of us who play in the praise team expect to be paid, because it's a joy just to contribute to God's work in our faith community. That said, there are MANY churches that are large enough to actually hire musicians, because, more often or not, large churches tend to up the production levels to keep the numbers of attendees up. The more talent you add to the payroll, the more tithing is required to cover the cost, which inches a church toward the temptation of becoming more like a value-added venue. "The music has to be excellent, we need to compel people to be here, we need to keep people showing up"... but as a result, that church becomes less of a family/community that is growing in faith, and becomes more of an audience of entertained strangers with fewer connections, with the only real "growth" being in the arrested development of one's faith in Christ. A church musician... even a paid worship leader... can have a secular music career in a symphony, or an ensemble, or a choir, or as a professional session player, or a music teacher, like any other secular profession. It gets a dicey if a Christian musician is regularly playing in bars or clubs, where the focus is generally on alcohol, carnal expression, and sexuality (and no doubt, recreational drugs). It's one thing if a strong, solid, committed Christian decides to make playing in bars/clubs their MISSION FIELD by being actively and consistently bold in presenting and living their faith in God... just imagine a killer blues player and/or singer who puts on an incredibly display of talent and virtuosity (or just has a really fun stage presentation) who consistently presents a positive, uplifting show that might be the only glimpse of hope and light some folks might ever see... but it's another thing if a musician "acts" Christian on Sunday morning at church, while also regularly being caught up in a provocative, lewd, or vulgar presentation any other night, partaking of the vices and demonstrating zero Christianity. That kind of musician is a danger to themselves and to others... it's easy to a) "backslide", b) disappoint or discourage other Christians, and c) be seen as yet another "hypocrite" who puts off people who aren't of faith. Actually, having said all of that, a Christian could have one of a zillion secular jobs that don't involve booze, vices, sexuallity, vulgarity, or immoral/unethical/questionable behaviour... any situation that offers obvious temptation. WISDOM AND DISCERNMENT REQUIRED.
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Thank you for the video. Having been a gigging musician for 30-years, I currently serve as a church lead guitarist for the past three years. Two years ago, I made the decision to not pursue secular music and play in church only. I was not pressured by my church. This decision was the direct result of the impact Jesus has made in my life. Everyone’s circumstances and journey is different, and I’m not suggesting my decision is right or wrong. Seek first the kingdom of God and allow his Holy Spirit to work in your life. He saved me from a life of darkness. Love to you all.
I really like and support the decision you took 😄
Me too.'
@@G-Nius87
Amen!!
As a 40+ year musician,and as Highly Sensitive Person/Prophetic Intercessor/Psalmist, I COMPLETELY Understand and Honor, youre attitude!!! I said ALL of that about myself, NOT to brag/boast/ or draw attention to myself, BUT to highlihgt, why I play/Pray----- music, is first Worship,then prayer and ministry---first to The Father and then to others...... Letting His Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven can come through music...... BUT msic is omly 1 of the ways to Worship. thnx soooooo much Bro. Crump for youre ministry to me. Blessings and sweet sleep. bro. Chaz. P.S.--- there is a Specific- Office/ anointing, I walk in, I am a King David, type ----- and still learning Humility and will wash the feet of others.
Even with my minimal music skills, I have been invited to play in secular bands. I declined as I believe being a Christian playing secular music with it's worldliness, not to mention a club itself, and getting paid was not a good decision. That's just me. Once in a great while, I get to play in a musical. I know my minimal skills will not get me in christian ministry, but it's nice to play for the Lord - when I can.
I have formed my own beliefs that differ from Christianity, but I have been a Christian and studied the Bible. When someone has a gift from God, such as musical talent, it is that person's responsibility to use that gift to help as many people as possible. So I would argue that any church who denies a musician from playing secular settings is denying that musician from their sacred duty
I’m self taught musician so I learn to drum at church and I have decided to only play music at church or Christian music period. It’s a personal dedication to the Almighty ! In my case.
Best position to be in. I came out of the club. Musicians shouldn't be in the club at all! No excuses
@@jumbojimbo3601 how do you earn without doing gig?
@@jumbojimbo3601musician shouldn’t be in the club? Come on man that’s cold. Y’all can pray and believe in your god but don’t bring us down to your level. Music is a gift open your mind abit. such a ridiculous thing to say.
@@jeffhayesexperiment I would never bring you down Brother, just encourage you, I meant musicians who worship God, not every musician. You are correct though, playing instruments is definitely a gift!
@@jumbojimbo3601 🤣😂ok right on. misunderstanding. Dont be scared of the clubs it’s a good time just Be safe my friend!
I’ve been a church musician for years, and I played for years in an event, dance-band (weddings, winery events, etc). I never felt that was a moral contradiction. However, if a club gig promotes promiscuity, drug/alcohol abuse, etc, then I don’t think it’s appropriate for church musician to do. Pick one.
Thank you sir! This is the difference...playing in the world or for/with the world.
@melvincole1711 That is not the difference. The difference is made by the message, the goal and the motivation. Many of you guys agree to this dualism. I will come back to explain, I'm busy now. But I gave you a clue and will wait for you to come to your senses. This was a superficial message which reveals a strong bias for the world in the disadvantage of Christ. Don't you know that the World and Christ are opposed? Wake up! I will write more soon.
@@alex.a if you come back to explain then I promise you now that will be the comment I won't read
So playing at a winery event doesn’t promote alcoholism?
@@chrishorn-bb1gp I don’t believe it does, any more than entertaining at a restaurant promotes obesity.
I'm a church musician myself, being on a journey of spiritual growth through the Holy Spirit. So I've been struggling with this topic, whether I should be open to play secular music and gigs or not. One day God made me aware that most media (TV shows, books, movies, music etc.) are created with opinions, values and "truths" that are from the world, or in other words that mostly contradict God's truths and how God wants us humans to live - btw, even love songs do not necessarily reflect how God intended love to be.
Since media are strong in influencing our thoughts and our attitude (hence our heart) on a concious and subconcious level, we better be careful with what kind of content we consume, generally speaking. That being said, I personally do not feel comfortable promoting wordly values that contradict God's values through a powerful medium such as music with my musicianship. Clearly, as christians we are not always aware which content is against God's will, but at least I would try to avoid promoting "the bad stuff".
So it is less about the venue but more about what message we promote as christians through our work. And as musicians this issue is even magnified since our work touches hearts of the public (respectively larger groups of people).
If we go one step further, the question then is which venues or gigs are fine with christian music being played by you and your band? And who is OK with you declining requests for secular songs and still let you have the gig? The strength of your faith shows here: are you faithfull to God and do you trust that He actively provides for you?
That was very well put. Don’t confuse people. You can not serve to Masters you either serve God or the world….
As a pastor and a musician myself, I think one thing that many churches fail to consider is that there is a huge difference between a musician and a minister of music even though we use the term interchangeably. Musicians can be great at their craft but you can't hold them accountable for knowing if the lyrics of the worship song speaks to the congregation or if the songs set the atmosphere for the preached word. That is what Ministers of Music should know. I hope this helps someone. Be blessed.
I use to think that playing for a church was a good for the soul but in actually its a pimp situation they would use me and not get paid ..one day a bass player got a check and I said how did you get paid and we been here since day one and nobody in the band is getting paid ..his reply was well I'm the band director..that's when I said I don't need to be directed I graduated from arts highschool and went to a college to study music I can even sight read did you know that..he said well tell the pastor ..so I went and said how come we are not getting paid like the new bass player/ director..he said he doesn't have a job like you leon I said listen it's not like that you gotta understand I work all week to get up Sunday early not only that I actually help with the stage set up I help out with the wires etc that is work on my day off ...he said you need to seek the lord on that mindset leon ...I said ok ..that's when I realized my worth and left I been doing professional music ever since and getting gigs and guess what Jesus still loves me .I nolonger desire to play at all for no church since they don't want to half pay us anyway ..so I'm ok with that I just do my jazz and secular shows and I'm happy 😂 God is indeed good all the time
If we as church musicians would spend alot more time in the alter seeking after God's will to be made real in each service , and for the anointing to be on each singer and musician we would all see a huge change in our services if someone else gets paid and I don't so what ; I am called to be a worshiper first ... God will provide he always does
"WOW" I really didn't have time for this response ( but I was compelled to say something with LOVE and UNDERSTANDING on both sides) here we go.
1. I have been playing bass for ("WOW" 40 years) "me I live to play not play to live" I'm 64 year old and I still have some groove in me (funny)
2. There are some stupid crazy good musician out their ( some for them read and some don't) I know young kids in church, perfect pitch and are playing at a professional level and most them are humble and I get it ( I was paid for my craft because deacon sit down and said to years ago (said) are you getting paid, I said NO SIR, he why not, I said I don't want to be paid, he said BOY how much do you batteries cost strings, power cord, your time learn these songs and travel to the other chruchs etc on) and before could say anything, BOY these churches destroy you because of your kindness get paid (funny) so I talk to the minster of music, and said how much you asking for and I said $25, he laugh and say okay NOTE: be careful what you ask for (funny) but over time people know you and you skill and they will give you offers (if you are getting paid be on time and know your songs), I STOP ASKING FOR MONEY YEARS AGO BECAUSE I and I"M SAYING ME (I start playing because I just love to play and GOD was blessing me even more).
3. All churches are different (Just do GODS work and you will be blessed) , now not getting paid, I still maintain my respect for the Pastor and He's or Her calling, but I did have a say on some for those events. NOW I recall an event where the paster had a big event way out of town, and when it was over (3 hours later) this older woman (ELDER) in the church handed my a yellow envelop ( was packing my gear and trying get on the road) while going down the road I open the envelope ("WOW") $500.00 I almost roll the truck.
4. I have never compared myself to the MINSTER OF MUSIC, most of them are again perfect pitch and they hear everything, I have seen there valve and I think they deserve everything they get ( they have regular and spent most of there off time in the church) (I LOVE THE SINGER, I don't go there) (FUNNY)
5.As a basses all I going to say bassist Andrew Gouche , Tony“Chicago” Russell and Anthony Crawford etc. (Jamareo Artis is a Gosple bassist) check him out and just like the other bassist mention there are all HUMBLE......
LIVE TO PLAY GOD BLESS
Luke warm Christian, choose whom you will serve...
@@leonpressley6882 Yes, yes He is!!! I understand where yiou are coming from......... BUT others are coming from a diff. direction! Our "PAY-OUT" is the smile on Jesus's face--- souls in heaven--- and joy and contentment in our hearts forever....... things $$$$$$, cant buy!!! But yes Leon, we love you, we just dont agree with you.
We had musicians in our church that played at clubs and they would come to church hung over sometimes. One time the organ player played a riff from a scary movie 🎥 during the offering and laughed. So as a praise leader I feel it’s really important who plays for you.
That’s once in a blue moon
It is all based on modern tradition, not the Bible. As I have commented before- 30-plus years as a professional musician who also played in church. Pretty much *never* got paid in church, pretty much *always* got paid everywhere else.
Different but related story: One cult-like church that a former/ex-fiancé of mine attended (which made her break up with me, due to my… so-called “worldliness”), was always talking down on me and other Christian music pros. But guess what they did when Phillip Bailey of EW&F was supposed to come for a visit? An extra-super-cleaning of the church, extra music rehearsals, and rolling out that proverbial red carpet!!! To add insult to injury, the worship leader at the time, the cultic pastor’s right-hand man, who was always telling me how wicked it was to be… y’know, making enough money to eat, wound-up leaving the church years later to start a Dave Matthews cover band. He broke ties with the pastor, because he wouldn’t make an exception for this guy.
I love the Lord! The church, made up of people, on the other hand, is often quite messed up…
I agree completely! I am a full time musician and would love to play at a church again but refuse to tolerate this attitude from any church. I am called to provide for my family and will do so legally and ethically!
DITTO...you and me both my brother
Hey @paulgrether5631, I left a comment on this video a few minutes ago. Maybe it opens up a new perspective on this topic. Would be glad if you could take a look at it.
Big on the legally
One cannot bring positive change to the church by leaving it. This is the basic message of the Cursillo movement. Overcome fear. Have faith in God, not man.
I agree. For me as long as the musician is not acting of the world (drinking, smoking, getting drunk,etc) then for me it’s okay. As a Christian it’s important to be a light in the world.
3:19 Very anointed musicians with the strong profound God-given foundation are also meant to play and sing in other places as well. Don't get me wrong, those aforementioned musicians ARE talented and gifted. But pastors who apply cultural pressure to them saying "these musicians should be about God only" may be a sign that something else is going on in their hearts. Even after being classically trained and grown for nearly 2 decades, I have experienced cultural pressure myself to where my potential was limited to only pleasing the Baptist church for 3 years, and I was not allowed to expand my performance experiences in restaurants, clubs, etc.
May these anointed musicians share their gifts by the highest calling of God everywhere they go!
There is a 3rd question that should be asked and is probably more important. Should professional musicians play in church, as it is a lot of work? Working on the Sabbath or Shabbat is Biblically prohibited whether paid or not. It's a day of rest, rather than all the garbage that may go on in a church setting including church politics and other discouragements. If it were solely to do good without all the rest that would be one thing. Also, the sound crew has to work and in many cases the treatment they have received is absolutely horrible.
I wasn't a musician but I served in the church some years ago. The experience I had with pastors and associate ministers were they thought they owned me. GOD had just blessed me with a new job that doubled my annual income. They tried to dictate me at church as well as at my house. Yes I drunk beer during a Mike Tyson fight and they held it against me. Well I've been gone from that church for nearly 23 years. I haven't gone to visit it neither. I'm enjoying your videos my Brother. Keep it Real 💯
What's the difference between a musician playing in a club or for a party vs. the pastor going to basketball & football games? Both places serve alcohol. This was the situation I went thru at my home church back in the late 90's.
All facts. The church puts so much on musicians. And now they want us to work for free at church AND not work outside of the church. It’s ridiculous. Blessings to ya Terence for another quality video.
Do you see church only as a job? Honest question.
I think it depends what church you go to, I was once part of a church where it was ridiculous, the commitment levels that were expected and zero pay, the church I’ve been part of for almost 2 years now, I don’t get paid and don’t expect to get paid, I have a full time job for that, yet I’m part of the music/worship team and when not on stage I’m at the back of the church doing either the sound desk or mostly the sound and audio for the livestream, and I enjoy all if it 🤷🏻 and if I was to do a music venture outside of my church, they wouldn’t have a problem with it
@@jesuszayas7 i absolutely do not see playing at church as just a job. I am very faithful to the church I play at. When I’m not playing, I assist in whatever is needed. I attend functions with the members. I travel and attend programs without getting paid. However I am a paid musicians that was sought out by the congregation. That makes the difference in the free vs paid issue. But the main issue in this video is about regulating musicians schedule outside of church, particularly when a church also wants you to play for free. I know musicians that are just musicians. They don’t work other industries. So they should be able to use that skill to make a living, ESPECIALLY if the church wants them for free.
@@jesuszayas7they probably do. The problem is most of the musicians are not saved so they dont care about God Almighty
@@jumbojimbo3601 People still have bills to pay. Most churches aren't going to pay enough to cover rent, so you better be opening your home for them to squat in if we're gonna act like sitting and clapping on the benches for free is the same as going to school to learn a craft, possibly get into debt, and perform exclusively at a place that doesn't pay them for their efforts off the stage are the same thing.
This subject is literally why our platform exists - because generations of musicians and creatives are still being rejected by those we serve on Sundays because we also earn a living (like every other member of the church) outside of it. Your definition of "secular" is precisely what people miss in this whole discussion - that there is nothing in the world that does NOT involve God, which means we carry our gifting into the world, while we're not of it. We don't even use the word 'secular" in our materials. We say "mainstream arts and entertainment" because that's what it really is. Thanks for addressing it - even though we wish we could put this argument to bed.
THANK YOU! FINALLY, someone with SENSE! As a musician myself I'm TIRED of this feeling of ENTITLEMENT that churches have towards musicians!
Great video Terence. I have no problem playing secular and sacred music. That said, I’m very conscious of what I play in BOTH settings because both can sometimes contain subject matter that contradicts scripture.
EXACTLY. Yep, a lot of "Church" songs are theologically off kilter. When I play "secular" gigs I always choose songs that are inoffensive, sometimes humorous, sometimes heartbreaking, sometimes challenging (usually something I've written with my own slant on things), but try to always be respectful of everyone and God's universe and order of things He has created.
We should be Christians who happen to be musicians, not musicians who happen to be Christians.
Hah! It is an individual decision.
Hah! It should be a matter of individual priority.
We should follow what Jesus said and not you; go unro ALL the world and share the good news. I have people show up at my church who came because they saw me and talked to me at a bar. PRAISE GOD!
@@lancebagley9033Me too! Some would even ask me for a ride! I almost asked pastor for a van. ✌️❤️
~ 🌺
Exactly!
I believe this topic’s a bit difficult.
I been around musicians all my life and have done some gig’ing in the past myself. I had the exact same views and argued that position every time I visited my Parents house who are pastors.. but overtime, I’ve come to see and understand the side of the argument. In end, I believe it has to be treated on a case by case basis.
Everyone that has EVER done any type of gig’ing knows that not all jobs are equal. As any believer should know, there’s just some places a God fearing person should not be regardless of the money. Secular jobs are not the issue, it’s the environment you’re being placed in and and sometimes the ungodly vibes your talents are used/being paid to create.
Thank you, brother, I have fought with this for so many years, I don't desire to play bars anymore but I sure have played my share, now at 65 I just want to play some pizza parlors, steak houses and senior dances, you are a blessing,
I'm a sound engineer, and my best work has been in clubs. There are so many unchurched and de-churched people who need answers and guidance. My best work was being a christian at a club.
Christians like you can help people who need to understand a different point of view. Thank you
Exactly. Amen.
That's the same thing my sonsaid. He's a speaker, poet and author. He told me he was received much better than he was at the churches and his presentations were Christian. He said the churches are so judgemental/hypocritical, yet they participate in the world's sector and do unimaginable things in their "social circles ". WOW again
Yeah right… where your advice came from William Murphy I bet, nothing that will pull ppl out of sin? 😂
Huh 😅
Playing bars involves lots of worship as well. People would always come up to me an praise me and shake my hand before I was a christian. I loved it! They would even stand up and clap as I approached the bar lol.... I received a standing ovation once where there has never been a standing ovation at a High end blues jam.... the waitress came and congratulated me! Glory to God was not mentioned. Now I realize how egotistical it can be... how addicting it can be.... I needed major cleansing from it. God tool me oit of it and put me in a place to recover from it. Now that I give praise to God in everything... I kind of wand to play the blues that I used to... but when I listen to the songs I used to... I notice that the musicians never gave praise to God once. And alot of the aongs oht there have deeper meanings sometimes against our Father in heaven. So I still feel.uneasy about playing these "secular" songs. But I do wamt to use thos talent to praise God
. Because an account will be given of the talents He gives on how we used it!.... I still write original material though and I pray and ask God of it's in His or will... it's a hard place to be right now....
Agree 100% on this. I have always performed both in a street band and in church worship without conflict. I have heard of some churches condemning this but have never experienced it. It is not a contradiction as long as you carry your faith with you and don't abandon it at the club door in favor of wild sex, drugs, and rock and roll!
From what we know, Jesus was a Jewish carpenter and there is no evidence that he *only* performed carpentry work for the Synagogue. It is far more likely he worked as a general carpenter building homes, chairs, tables, cabinets, and other projects in his community for the secular world.
I think that there’s one elephant in the room that haven’t touched on in this video. Typically the message of a portion of the “secular” repertoire puts forth or portraits way of life that’s not particularly christian. How does playing in a band that presents these songs, not equate to advertising the lifestyle portrait in the song. Can the same well produce sweet and bitter water?
Love your video’s man. I am full-time gigging musician. And am in our church worship team. Love it. And in my life, the balance for me is so needed! ✝️🙏🏽😃👍🏽
Lots to unpack, everyone in this situation needs to go to scriptures first for guidance, not in terms of the specific situation but in principle. Some who, like the pastor in the example, may want to impose a level of holiness they aren’t living by are not the final authority in the matter. With that said, we must understand that music like the spoken word is very powerful and when it’s used correctly has the ability to transform a heart for Christ, unlike the work the plumber or any other tradesperson may perform. Blessings
I would say that as a Christian there is nothing wrong with playing a secular gig, unless you need to compromise your Christian values to do so. For example, I personally would not play a gig where they would have scantily clad women dancing provocatively on stage, but I wouldn’t say no to a secular gig just because it’s secular. We should not compromise our values for money. We need to use judgement and follow our convictions in everything we do, and it’s not going to be the same for everybody. We should pray for wisdom to make sure we aren’t doing something that would be displeasing to God.
I don't play in church because I can hardly tell if its really for God or not. When I play in clubs its perfectly clear and I appreciate the honesty.
If churches can pay Pastors I see no reason why church musicians should not be getting paid as well. Both Pastors and Musicians are always on stage in church services, conferences, crusades, etc etc
And the bible says ?
@@ivanrioblaAnd the Bible says? Seriously? Have you actually read it? Musicians in service of the temple were paid. Churches teach tithing all the time but everyone in the service of the temple was provided for.
When making arguments, particularly for the Christian community, it's crucial to base them on Scripture. When you have a platform like a RUclips channel, your advice can influence many. Without scriptural support, your guidance may mislead your audience, leading them astray. Scripture clearly advises against mixing light with darkness (2 Corinthians 6:14). Consider the environments you endorse or participate in. For example, working in a secular place like a store isn’t inherently problematic. It's about how you conduct yourself there.
However, when you're seen performing in a club, engaging with activities contrary to Christian teachings, it might compromise your witness as a believer. Matthew 6:24 teaches us that 'No one can serve two masters... You cannot serve both God and money.' This highlights the danger of pursuing financial gain at the expense of spiritual integrity. Furthermore, Ephesians 5:11 instructs us to 'Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them,' which applies to the choice of venues and the nature of the performances.
Singing or playing secular songs that contradict biblical values, especially in settings that mock or trivialize sacred texts, does not reflect the light of Christ. Psalm 1:1-2 advises us to avoid the path that sinners take, which can be related to performing music that promotes messages contrary to biblical teachings. Remember, being a Christian musician isn’t just about making money; it's about aligning your actions with the Word of God. We are Christians first and then musicians.
Your opinion on clubs doesn’t matter, what the word of God says does.
1 Peter 4:3-4 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do-living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.”
Before creating content, especially aimed at believers, ensure it aligns with biblical wisdom. Simply dismissing concerns without understanding can be harmful. Strive to uplift and accurately represent the teachings of Scripture in your communications.
Up until a decade ago, I did club gigs while working as a church musician along with being a choir member and directing our youth orchestra. It was only upon entering seminary that I stopped gigging out, not because of beliefs but due to workload. I must be honest, at times I got more respect and love from club patrons and club musicians than my peers at my church. I love playing music, not for the adulation, but I have always loved music and making people happy. In my decades as a secular musician I had fewer drinks than I have fingers, I never played or drove anywhere high or inebriated, and I put in more rehearsal time with my secular peers than my religious peers. So, I do not see an issue with a musician that loves their craft playing in a secular environment. Especially when their church keeps limiting them and applying double standards.
I play both at church and outside of church. For me, it's about fulfilling an obligation. I'm on staff at church and I gig outside of church occasionally. Having said that, my first obligation is to playing at church, if a gig is going to conflict with that obligation, then I'll turn it down. Again, that's just me.
Bro.....I wish this video was available when I was a teenager. I would've been a better musician a lot sooner and made more money in the process. I let the church persuade me not to play anywhere. But when I asked for more money because I wasn't making enough to support my kids (I had 2 when I was 17 years old) they would say "Oh you're working for the Lord". They paid me according to my age and not according to my skill level. I was getting paid $150 a month back then!!! Meanwhile the pastor and his family all had nice luxury cars and trucks, wearing nice clothes. Church was paid for, so that wasn't an excuse. But I'm older now and learned better. I'm telling my son who plays not to let a church do this to him. He's one of the baddest drummers in New Orleans now. Thanks for this video man.
If some church member or pastor has this kind of attitude about a musician playing outside of church for secular entertainment, then THEY themselves shouldn’t ATTEND any secular entertainment. No secular movies (including at home), no secular music at all, no dances, no (gasp now I’m meddling) secular sports events, especially pros, no going on secular cruises, where you’ll undoubtedly be hearing secular music and entertainment. OOPS! Now I’m really meddling! The list goes on and on. Oh…and NO outside employment anywhere, where a store might sell objectionable items. Hey…don’t give me the excuse that you’ve got bills to pay. God will provide, without you ringing up somebody’s beer and cigarettes, or having to work on Sunday. And from the terribleness of some “worship” music nowadays, I’m probably better off playing Sweet Home Alabama for the 5387th time. You can’t have this “no secular music attitude, and have it both ways on everything else.
I am a 68 year old white guy that has been “playing guitar for Jesus” for 50 years. This is just me! I made a decision when I was 18 that I would only play music that honored God. Over the years I’ve done a few “secular” tunes but in spiritual context and also played “Jesus music” in a secular setting. Because of my own experience and others I just don’t “feel right in my spirit” playing in bars, etc. After all, a bar musician is really selling more alcohol for the bar owner! I can perfectly understand doing it though, especially if you really make it your career. Further disclosure, most of my life I’ve played in primarily “white” churches. They rarely pay musicians (sometimes keyboards) and white worship teams often suck. (Questioning in my head, I’ve put out thousands of dollars for my instruments and paid nothing while the church provides instruments for the keyboard player🤔) For about 5 years I was involved in black gospel, Sunday morning as well as a couple of traveling groups, one of which did CDs. It was a wonderful experience musically, I was often paid, but I blew out my left elbow with tendinitis 😢. I am playing again about 13 years later, but much less, I’m just getting older😉.
Bottom line? It’s a personal decision about playing in clubs, etc. although there are moral choices that go along with that! If I was doing the choosing I think I would choose musicians with good moral character just as important as musical ability. Believe me, I’ve seen it all!😉
I’ve watched a few of your videos and a lot of things you are describing are from a “black church” perspective. I would also say the divisions are slowly coming down! PTL! There are definitely different traditions in the two, we need to try to understand each other. After all we will all be in the throne room worshipping the King someday!
""After all, a bar musician is really selling more alcohol for the bar owner! "" so do you think if you work at a department store and sell clothes for someone going to a bar or club to get drunk is the same thing ? Lol
@@ivanriobla you know clothes are worn other than in clubs right?
@@JDawghasaTruck Yes ♥ im saying because you said something very important ""After all, a bar musician is really selling more alcohol for the bar owner! "" so Terence Fisher is compering any job to a musician when music has a lot of power.
@@JDawghasaTruck So people use this argument of "secular job" to say i can work in a club/bar with music after all you also have a secular job. (for exp) you work at a department store you sell clothes to the people that go the bars and clubs to get drunk
I agree, but with full respect to anyone you can't compare the jobs you mention to creating MUSIC or any ART form for that matter, is very possible SATAN was in charge of music or something similar, music has a lot of power, your using power with a gift from God. and yes with any job you exercise ways God can use his power, comparing music with anything is a bit complex
Yes. Agreed 100%! Also, I want to make a point that many secular corporations support LGBTQ and other organizations that a lot of religious groups are against and these are companies that Christians and other people of different faiths work at. Are they supposed to quit because of what their company chooses to support? How come they are not held to those same standards as musicians in ministry?
At the end of the day - it’s still a JOB! And you need to work in order to eat.
I hear you brother loudly and clearly. I endured similar rhetoric at one time from several parishioners, whom I suspected were prompted by the formal staff to approach me since I am older than everyone else serving on the Worship Team by 30 years or more. One person went as far as to say, my playing outside the church caused them to stumble; thereby inferring, via innuendo 1 COR 10:31. Gross misinterpretation of scripture to be certain. Albeit, I enlighten those who would listen with several analogies, similar to what you expressed. Double and selective standards. I decided that I did not need to justify anything to anyone (If the doctors, lawyers, Information Technology, Systems Administrators manual labor workers, craftsman, etc, do not need to justify working in a secular environment, then there is no logical reason to apply this man made standard to musicians. I decided to discontinue serving on the Worship Team. However, my decision was based upon PHI 2:14 "Do everything without grumbling or arguing". It is significant to state, this rhetorical question "where do the naysayers think this musical experience was derived from?"
Keep doing what you doing, it is sorely needed.
I play in both an 80's band, and on church on Sunday morning. I have no personal conflict. It's more about what is in your heart.
I don’t have a lot of exposure to much of this, but I’ll tell you that having visited my wife’s church whose bass player is WAY stretched out, and them knowing I’m a bass player… I’ve been asked to join their musical group even though they KNOW I’m in a gigging band.
BUUUT.. it’s a very cool church.
That being said, I can see the issues that you’ve mentioned.
All of this is said with respect.
Very HONORABLE WISE answer, young Bro.
I am so glad to have found this channel and that you are talking about these issues concerning musicians. I feel like I missed out on so many opportunities because of this false belief .
Amen! I'm a professional musician from Finland and I have faced this subject all too many times. The most weird discussion was when a christian construction worker criticised me for playing in clubs and by that time he was working at a construction site where there was supposed to be a club. Like what? It's ok for someone to build a club but it's not ok for me to play in that club. Are you kidding? That was some 12 years ago. Now, fortunately, the things have changed at least a bit. Some members of my church even come to see me play in a club when they have a chance. They don't get drunk or stoned or anything but just enjoy live music. Some of them even have a dream to bring christian music to the clubs.
EDIT: I gladly pay even for free in church if it's a musically interesting case like there was a latin music worship about a month ago: huge band with percussion players, brass and strings etc. I enjoyed every second and it was enough for me. But I'm a professional musician and I need to keep my family alive. I need gigs and concerts anywhere to do that. I'm not playing any cover gigs with for example satanic content etc. Playing some basic pop in a club is no problem for me.
Well said! To each his own but, I totally believe that my experiences in AND outside of church have helped me grow VASTLY as a musician! And yes, can you be a greeter at church AND at Walmart? You have to be 100% with your thought process if you're going to go there. I think there are a lot of us out there that maintain integrity wherever we play. It's just WORK, for me!
I played for a church, Harvest for Christ under a fail leader for well over two years. Put together a solid rhythm section together, put thousands dollars of my studio equipment in the church and was never paid a single penny and make matters worse the pastor gave out keys to the so-called church and members walked out with my expensive equipment and he didn’t give a damn about it. Never will I play for free again.
Wow, horrible...Lot's of folks are what the Bible calls "Hirelings"...they are professional religionists, but don't really represent the true God.
Awesome content. I am stoked I found this channel - watched a few videos and I'm officially binging now! Awesome stuff
I was once asked by the pastor about playing secular music. I said that I was blessed to be able to go into the world and be an example for God. God has given me the strength to stay true to my beliefs and be a witness to his grace. The pastor was pleased to hear this and accepted my answer. At the time I was just giving him a quick shine to get him off my back but later when I reflected on this... It was a valid point.
Playing in clubs, restaurants, weddings, and studio work has helped me grow as a musician tremendously. Sure I got my fair share of blowback from the church. The fruit of it, I became a more relaxed player, less stressed, more skilled, 0 need for the church to fulfill any needs of accomplishment or performance. While I’m at church I have no other thoughts other than being present in the worship, while I’m in secular environments I have no other thoughts than being present in the music.
This issue will never end, it's worse in west africa.
This makes so much sense. Your channel is interesting even though I can't play a note of music and I don't sing very well.
Many of the blues players have done this for years. Musicians have to eat too.
Sir!!!!! Thank you!! I have been making the same EXACT argument for 15 years. I’m glad to have someone else voice it the too.
This is such a touchy taboo topic. I have been in the entertainment arena for over 40 years and in the Kingdom of God as a Gospel Artist for over 20 years. God saved me to touch the world not just the church. I had to realize my gift is to the masses and me using my gift to sing is touching lives in many arenas. Now I am cognizant of environments that promote behaviors that are contrary to the Bible and my beliefs. I don’t partake of those things. Just because I go to a restaurant that serves alcohol, I don’t drink. So should I not go because they serve liquor. How are you impacting the world with your gift in the arena that is deemed “secular”. So the church will try and use scripture to control musicians and singers, but that’s my job. We have to make a living to support our families. You and God be the judge. Not man! You maybe assigned to that industry to minister to others who may not know Christ. Just my two cents. Thanks for this video 🫶🏽
Yup, the problem is "money talk" - working at a church vs working not at a church - how about a priest invited to give motivation at office event? Now, what is the point of tithing and offerings? Seems Levi ministry should be clarified. Btw, I repented and stopped smoking not in a church, but while playing music and singing during my session as entertainer in Taiwan. So? Thanks!
Talk about stick and splinter issue with that pastor!
I do not have any issue with musicians playing in secular places. As long as they attend church, I trust Jesus to work with them so that they choose which gigs to play in alignment with their faith.
I do not think a bar / club is a good place for a christian to be, but that’s me.
The parable about the 99 sheeps comes to mind. We should be careful pushing people away because of phariseic thoughts!
Your comment got made me think. Thanks.
It's not dumb brother, your comparisons are biased. The church plumber who fixes pipes for secular people is not promoting sin or anything worldly. Music is a whole other animal. Music gets in your mind and spirit, accounting doesn't. Your good could be evil spoken of. One of those people from the club or party may be at church the next Sunday and see you up there playing worship music. It may confuse them.
You don't have to gig.
Teach music.
Produce themes and jingles.
Gig at Christian events (weddings, parties, etc)
Come out from among them and be ye separate is a serious thing to think about.
This really shows me how nonchalant and unsacred the mindset is today. Not just musicians but the church in general
Hold it for a moment, here's what's happening, most church pastors hire musicians because they can really play the music and get people up and dancing and get the BS shouten going on. 8t the pastor's fault that these unconverted musicians are in the churches every Sunday mornings after leaving their Saturday night gigging. Stop Hiring musicians who are [ NOT ] believers! As a matter of fact, do not allow regular church members to play nor sing if they have not proven to be converted. Musicians playing gospel music and can't even resight a scripture? It the pastor's fault .
I agree. I participated in a worship team for several years as a lead guitar player as well as a tech support. I worked in the club scene as a live sound engineer so being able to play in the music worship team was a nice balance for a while. I didn't get paid for it, it was a small church. I was glad to help. That said, when it came time for the church to put together a multi-stage community block party I volunteered my sound system and then I found out that they also hired a sound company to handle another stage. It just sent a bad message. I suddenly felt like I was being used. There was no communication to me of hiring a sound company, I found out later and I was leading the coordination of the music event. I gracefully moved out of the church. I didn't move away from Christ but I am weary of the desperate users of those who claim they follow Christ. I'll go to church here and there but I will no longer support a contemporary music worship.
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I'm 51. My whole life musicians have gotten into church bands because it's guaranteed band experience. From learning how to practice as a band, and weekly gigs. A lot of guys I know were able to learn the production side too, from sound to lights and effects.
These are the things that drive people away from the church. Very judgemental behaviour. Double standards. I think that musicians and pastors should have equal pay. Often people connect more to the music than the sermon. Christians have become spoiled with free live music every Sunday morning. Often you don’t even give a “thank you”. It’s just expected that’s it’s good, free, pure, holy music. Does knowing that the worship leader was at a bar the night before take away from that? Great question! Thanks for making us think about it.
Idk about the equal pay with pastors...
Why?@@arthurels5832 Many people prefer the music to the sermon. It depends on the individuals at the end of the day.
@@arthurels5832 Why?
I’ve decided not to play on the church stage as a routine. I’ll play once or twice as a solo artist to share my talent but, joining the praise team ain’t in my plans. I personally (my cross to bear) feel as a musician leading members to the lord, I don’t wanna be judged by the members. I should care but. Some folks aren’t there to understand we ain’t perfect. So, I just chose to play my way and stay out of the Paster’s way.
All due respect but everything you’ve said is “I”, what about what God wants you to do, and stuff what the congregation thinks, IF you think they’re judging u, well, sorry to say, but you’ve actually judged them, and yes I’m a musician and play at my church
If you're performing music that promotes sinful messages, lyrics, and themes that are unbiblical, then it seems pretty obvious why the church would, and SHOULD frown upon that. There is nothing unbiblical about greeting someone at Walmart, or doing someones taxes-- that comparison is disingenuous and obviously not the same thing. The gentleman is feigning ignorance, and understands perfectly well the difference. Look if you don't want to follow Jesus, then don't follow Jesus. Because it's clear what he commanded of his children.
Playing in clubs doesnt mean they're playing in strip clubs.
If i lay bricks at a church, can i lay bricks at a shopping center as well? Yes!
If someone is a musician, they need to maintain their skills somewhere.
I grew up playing in church and quartet gospel and recently started playing in a R&B band and told a deacon as much his comment was that i would fall away from the church .
So my counter was first jesus met the unsaved not in the church no. 2 . Unsaved or folk in the place i played in folk witnessed how i carried myself, i wasn't in a woman, s face , you wouldn't see me drunk or act contrary to what profess . So in a way i witnessed to them how i carried myself while enjoying exhibiting my craft and watching folk getting pleasure from it.
Makes me wonder about professional athletes who are Christians. The football and basketball games etc are usually televised with tons of commercials about beer and vacations in Vegas where "what happens there, stays there". Also, beer is sold in the stadiums themselves.
I’ve been in music ministry a very long time and let me tell you this a lot of the pastors and musicians who think like this they never grow they stay in the same spot forever real talk
One thing that I've heard said is,"Don't pimp your gift out to the world,". While I understand that and respect it, I think the church has been the biggest pimp. For example they want you to know multiple styles, play things on the fly, and play all this for free. This is asinine because it takes work and maximum effort to be proficient at these things. My take if you want musicians to think 🤔 about where they use their talents be sure to show them love and appreciation. I mean both in word and deed. Lip service is just that lip service, but it's s our actions that show our ❤️ s to people. One more point, musicians also have gear that costs them money so it's only natural they would want to be compensated.
I guess it depends on the church/denomination. I've been playing music at church for almost 30 years and never *once* have gotten any flak by clergy or staff about playing or making music outside of church. I mean, folks from my church have gone to my band's gigs on Friday and Saturday nights and ask me when I'm playing out again. Another musician, who plays in the Spanish-language ensemble in the church I'm currently playing at, shared me videos of his Cumbia band playing at parties. I thought it was cool. If God has blessed you with musical talent, then use it!
In my denomination, I have seen people critical of the notion of paying musicians. And if they are paying you, sometimes there is an attitude that implies receiving any payment at all for what you do, no matter how small, is a huge bonus, and that you should consider yourself lucky to receive any money at all.
Outside of my denomination at an interdenominational Bible study, I was told by someone that I should not get paid to do church music, and that I should not accept music work outside of the church. So I see thiese 2 issues as a real problem.
Exactly. It depends on the church. Me and my wife always wanted to play in church, but we weren't allowed by many churches because we perform outside the church. We are not even playing in nightclubs. We perform in hotels and restaurants. This is our business, and we do it full time, but somehow, the people from those churches believe that music is something sacred and that can only be done to worship God. They never could back that up with the bible.
Me and my wife don't go to church anymore for many other reasons. This was one of them. I have a lot of bad experiences with Christians. A lot of them are hypocrites. Atleast the ones I met. Anyways, this is my experience and I know other people may have good experiences.
@@MikeLiversidge You should ask them if a pastor should receive an income then.
I'm a worship pastor - and totally agree with you! Now if you are habitually playing until 3am the day before you need to be at church at 7am it might be an issue we need to address. Especially if you are falling asleep at the keys or snapping at your bandmates haha! But as long as you can serve faithfully on the days you say you will - I say get out there and get more experience and be a light to others around you!
Sir pastor, what if the musicians is playing/singing a secular music that is say... immoral, sexual - literally anything that would be condemn by Jesus. Ofc if they're just playing for a music without these immoral things, I would say its okay.
@@arthurels5832 I agree with you there! I'm personally fine with "secular music," and I don't think music should really even be categorized one way or the other (in terms sacred vs secular) as God created music - period. But totally agree with you about the CONTENT of that music. If someone on my team was playing "gross" music and saying or singing things all week that are in direct contrast to what Jesus would want us to sing about or celebrate, but then putting on a good "church face" to play for church, we'd have a conversation for sure. I'd approach the conversation with grace for sure, and try to see their motivation in why they want to play both for church and music that they know Jesus wouldn't love.
Some excellent points. I gotta say, God's hand is all over SO much secular music. Bars .. concert halls .. stadiums .. Isn't THAT where God would logically present his finest work? Where it can be displayed without pretense? where it can deeply move and heal lost souls who'd never dream of going to church? Gawd, I'm basically a Christian, I pray daily, and I am blessed ... but I've always despised the church. Solid video. 🤙Thanks.
I play at the church where i assist, and i work in construction for my dayli life, you decide wich one you wanna serve, cuz light and darkness its separate! And this needs decisions and convictions! God bless! 🙏
Since I've received the Lord Jesus in my life, almost 20 yrs ago, my voice is only for Him.
Do you go to grocery stores? Buy power from the electric company?
But also, God bless you! God’s blessings to you.
@@mikebarker9187Of course I do. But don’t you think I can have other jobs? Also, God has a call for each and everyone of is. That’s how I got mine. I am not criticizing who does different.
@@mikebarker9187I wish u the same.
Terence, you are great at story telling. Enjoyed this episode!
I played For 10 years in clubs and it was not a good atmosphere for righteousness.
Bad communication corrupts good morals. Plus there are spirits in you when you leave that can attach to young impressionable hearts and minds in church. Bless you.
I have play for multiple churches the last 42 years and I have enjoyed it for the most. Some payed and some didn’t.
I never asked. But, I have a business and I didn’t need to play in nightclubs anymore because the Lord blessed my business. I paid my tithes and gave offerings and served and God blessed my business. If the people who think they need to do something else to play to gain money would just pay their tithes God will bless them for being faithful.
That’s how you know you a living for God and not just for the gig.
Thank you for talking about this brother, it needed discussing.
(My Opinion).
Most musicians learn to play and improve in bands, they can be small garage bands, touring bands, or full blown orchestras - so they would have had a secular background. We need Christians in all places of work. Hopefully they will keep their Christian values on the type of music they play and lyrics they sing. Should church pastors have secular jobs.....
DEAR MASTER MUSICIAN : ALL THINGS ARE PERMITTED BUT NOT ALL THINGS ARE PROFITABLE
There should be nothing contraversial about it. I earn a living playing bars but also lead worship. I have to pay the bills and its also a creative outlet that wouldn't always be appropriate when leading worship. Besides Jesus would more likely be hanging out in the bars and the streets, if he was walking around today.
Jesus would be seen in secular places sharing the words. But do note, he does not 'participate' in it. So then the question is, you or whoever is in a bar. Are you preaching the gospel or just there?
You shouldn't be playing at no Diddy parties 😂😂
What's the difference if a plumber gets paid to fix a plumbing issue at a pub and a musician gets paid to perform at the same pub.
But then I've known members who didn't think preachers ought to be paid for their work
Pastors not being paid? Deng. Do they know that they do much more than preach on a friday/sat/sun church? They have to lead the church, know the members, visit them regularly (they're basically a therapist tbh) and pray for them and help out with w/e drama they may be going thru etc. A pastor can't have another job and pastor at the same time. They won't have enough time to commit to both. It would be like asking them to pastor but be homeless at the same time (no offense).
@@arthurels5832 A dedicated musician, meaning they went to school for it or have no other trade skill they've studied, also has to put in consistent hours of practice off the stage and in rehearsals. They've got to learn new standards or compose them on their own, conduct recording and mixing sessions for church albums, and also pay to maintain their gear. A set of bass strings alone can be over $30 a pack. It all adds up, so it's crazy when someone expects a full-time musician to not work anywhere else but a church that doesn't pay them enough to even cover the rent.
On Sunday mornings, I'm a third generation piano player in an Evangelical Church. On Saturday nights, I'm the lead guitarist in a classic rock band.
Brother this is so true! And I hadn’t really looked at it that way before. Makes perfect sense to me.
Preacher brother. I ran into the same issues. Exactly what you described
Some of the greatest musicians out there who have played on countless hit records, people who I have looked up to and admired are Christians.
Birthday party…fine. Club? I wish this was a dialogue, bc this argument is very weak.
The dialogue can happen here. Since the argument is weak to you, what's your defeater of this argument? Do you have a better argument for the contrary?
Back in the day, I have been kicked out MANY times for play secular music. But you know what, I did not feel bad. WHY? Because none of the churches that kicked me out were paying me. The only musician that gets paid is the Music Minister/Leader/Organ/Piano. Every other musician that is dedicated to a church has to be a member and is expected to volunteer. I play Jazz/Fusion/Funk/Rock/Country/Brazilian. Good enough for me to be invited to play. Not good enough to get paid.
In the end, I will occasionally help out on an event. But I have not been a church musician for over 20 years. We will not even go into the church poli-tricks. Another video...... More power to the musicians that put up with the people and the environment......
Perfect analogies!! If you have a relationship with GOD, HE should lead and guide you. I would have no issue playing in a club as I am not a drinker/smoker and would not be affected by those types of things synonymous with clubbing etc. but I know others who would be. Basically, know who you are and let GOD do the test!
As a musician I would love to be in a band and play outside of church. There’s just one problem, the majority of that work would be in a bar and I would have to be out until around 2:00 am Sunday morning. I could never be sharp for church Sunday morning. Plus I have a real problem with being in bars. It’s just not a place that a follower of Christ should be UNLESS your there to share the Gospel. Playing pop songs in a bar is not that. That’s just me though.
I don’t see an issue playing for birthday parties or family get togethers that are morally sound gatherings. It all depends on the environment we have to be in.
And your analogy about plumbers, accountants, electricians etc. doesn’t really match here. Accountants dont typically work in a crowded bar on Saturday nights in the middle of a party.
What if the accountant works at a firm which does taxes for said bar?
Thank you. I feel God has called our family band out of the church to encourage the world and even do music and comedy that isn’t “necessarily” Christian, but we want all we do to still be in line with Gods Word morally. Be in the world even if not of the world.
After reading some other comments, just fyi. Gigs that’s comprise our Faith or ask us to participate in things not in line with Gods Word and morals are turned down. Just like anyone who is not a musician, we have to be wise about who we work with and for.
I've had people tell me they're disappointed to see me "renounce my faith" by gigging. Which is a whole different issue, but it seems that quite a few of the people complaining over the lack of Christian art are also the ones stifling it.
Yeah I have had to deal with that junk occasionally.
Those critics need to come down off their judgemental high-horses and do some major self-reflection!
What if the church doesn't pay enough to survive esp if you're a man with a family⁉️🤷🏾♀️
Thank you, my brother for spreading your knowledge on this issue. Once again, it's the church steppington being judges and judging not only musicians but people as well. I'm going to say this if the church hired me to do a job. I'm going to do that job, just like if anybody else hired me to do that job. I'm going to do has nothing to do with my religion or my soul. Me being hired anywhere is not biblical or contradicts anything in the Bible. You see, these pastor's Dick is in trustees. Like to be on high horses because they hold a title. But yet they're not even biblical.
Even the levites in biblical times were paid. That's all they did all day, so if you want to pay a musician to be at church all day, you need to pay him a living salary that he can be a church all day. Can you say Mike drop?
If people have an issue with ministry musicians making money elsewhere with their talents, then they should all pool together to pay that person to be exclusively employed by the church.
People are playing church anyways. Too much focus on "the show", not the purpose.
So true. Thank you.
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My son calls them Posers.
Depends on the heart of the participants. It's not 'wrong' to seek excellence for the Lord.
@arthurels5832 I agree with you there. We should always give God our Best!
And please show some respect and dress up a little. You're made in His image. ✌️
Excellent videos, brother! You can tell you have a logical understanding of the way a skilled tradesmen operates. The church would fair better if they would be more accepting of these craftsmen and their ventures.
The point many musicians miss about this subject is that music is more than just music in church. Music is MINISTRY!! This is a very important part of setting the atmosphere for the presence of God. The problem is that nothing is regarded as sacred anymore. There are musicians who are minstrels who are prophetic and prophecy using instruments. Let's not forget Satan himself was an angel with a musical gift and now he uses it to invoke fear, torment, destruction, and lust. These are the same things promoted within secular music and atmospheres. So, ask yourself, is it OK to play for church and the club? This is equivalent to mixing Coke and water. Do you prefer to mix? Lastly, doesn't God deserve our best? Is everything all about filling your pockets? If you can be faithful offer few, God can make you ruler over many. Matthew 25:23
What's the point of being a Christian if you can't be one Everywhere you go?
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Great advice , my wife and I perform regularly and perform secular music in our set as well as gospel and originals . We don't perform any song we feel uncomfortable with as lyrical content is so important. Performing at secular gigs is ministry as putting the word of Christ in our set plants the seed in people that would not come to a gospel concert , we see broken people in some of these venues we play at . Sometimes these people don't realise but they are waiting for the lord's word. As Christians our ministry should be everywhere
Oh Dear Lord.
I'm an Actress/Singer/Dancer. Church Reject!
How dare I minister for FREE! ✌️❤️
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I was a professional paid Dancer in the musical theater. I was asked to leave the choir because my 'acting' and dancing role was a bellydancer.
What does that have anything to do with my relationship with Jesus and the right the praise? I had dinner with a friend one night. I was feeling lowly about this. I stopped in a local bar to hear some live music! And there were the top choir leaders drinking, smoking and tearing up the rug!
We're all just people.
We're all sinners. I don't care who you are.
That church drummer isn't a better Saint then the drummer in the club. His sin just has a different smell.
I’m not a Christian but paid and played in a Christian church. First day the director said many don’t want you here . Lol I just signed a year contract and I honor my word.I teach at a school drums for 3 years now and during that time. I never take money without doing the best I can for everyone balance of music etc. I make more now because of more time at there practice and two performances each week. Mostly only the preacher live the love your behavior to all.
FACTS. It’s not so much happening now like it had 20-30+ years ago. But what’s happening now is kind of shaming musicians on taking on secular music gigs. Not saying you can’t do the gigs but saying you have enough money playing here alone( along with your secular day job for most).
Well said my brother! 🙏🏽😊
It's easy to paint with broad strokes, and there are plenty of stereotypical examples, but these situations come in layers. I get to play guitar, bass, or drums at a Christ-centred church that is only big enough to afford a pastor and a few ministry staff members. None of us who play in the praise team expect to be paid, because it's a joy just to contribute to God's work in our faith community. That said, there are MANY churches that are large enough to actually hire musicians, because, more often or not, large churches tend to up the production levels to keep the numbers of attendees up. The more talent you add to the payroll, the more tithing is required to cover the cost, which inches a church toward the temptation of becoming more like a value-added venue. "The music has to be excellent, we need to compel people to be here, we need to keep people showing up"... but as a result, that church becomes less of a family/community that is growing in faith, and becomes more of an audience of entertained strangers with fewer connections, with the only real "growth" being in the arrested development of one's faith in Christ.
A church musician... even a paid worship leader... can have a secular music career in a symphony, or an ensemble, or a choir, or as a professional session player, or a music teacher, like any other secular profession. It gets a dicey if a Christian musician is regularly playing in bars or clubs, where the focus is generally on alcohol, carnal expression, and sexuality (and no doubt, recreational drugs). It's one thing if a strong, solid, committed Christian decides to make playing in bars/clubs their MISSION FIELD by being actively and consistently bold in presenting and living their faith in God... just imagine a killer blues player and/or singer who puts on an incredibly display of talent and virtuosity (or just has a really fun stage presentation) who consistently presents a positive, uplifting show that might be the only glimpse of hope and light some folks might ever see... but it's another thing if a musician "acts" Christian on Sunday morning at church, while also regularly being caught up in a provocative, lewd, or vulgar presentation any other night, partaking of the vices and demonstrating zero Christianity. That kind of musician is a danger to themselves and to others... it's easy to a) "backslide", b) disappoint or discourage other Christians, and c) be seen as yet another "hypocrite" who puts off people who aren't of faith.
Actually, having said all of that, a Christian could have one of a zillion secular jobs that don't involve booze, vices, sexuallity, vulgarity, or immoral/unethical/questionable behaviour... any situation that offers obvious temptation. WISDOM AND DISCERNMENT REQUIRED.
What these pastors dont understand ...is that We as muscians ..We Dont Care what they think opinions are like #@$@$##,..everybody has one 😅😅😅
I swear Mr.Terrence sounds just like Allen Par from The Beat