John McWhorter is an incredible thinker. As an African American teacher that teaches in a mostly black middle school, I am frustrated to see my students look for racism in places where it doesn’t even exist. It’s not to say that racism doesn’t exist and that our experiences aren’t valid, but looking for potentially racist encounters is anti-intellectual toward the actual cause. They have argued that not being allowed to have a phone during class is racist, or that not being allowed to talk during a test is racist. For some, being atheist is being anti-black. I wish they were joking because the backlash is real. They begin to internalize victimization, and then they stop putting effort into self improvement. Suspending belief is the death of critical thinking. Great interview!
@@jasoncharles8651 It's more complicated than a teacher "teaching what racism is." I teach it objectively as discrimination against someone based on ethnicity or racial group. It is not the sole job of teachers to teach what racism is, especially since it is not part of most curricula. It is also the job of parents and communities. Blaming me or my administration when we only see each student 90 minutes at a time is not conductive to the conversation. I can only explain so much if the student (child or adult, black or white) refuses to be open minded. Much of what a child brings to the classroom mirror their parents' ideologies.
@@bladem.d6029 Fortunately, most of them do not. The good news is that many of those that initially did make that argument did so in September. I have not heard that argument from them now in May. They can be influenced and persuaded to work hard and see homework as practice.
As a motorcycle rider, we are taught that where we look is where we will go. If we look at the ditch, we'll end up in the ditch, if we look at the car crossing our path we'll ending colliding with the car crossing our path. If we want to stay out of danger we look where we want to go, instead of the ditch we look as far ahead up the road as we can. Instead of looking at the car crossing our path, we look at the opening the car is leaving us to move around the car. If you look at oppression rather than the ways around oppression, you'll be oppressed.
John McWhorter and his frequent partner Glen Loury are some of the most underrated academics and public intellectuals in Western discourse today. These are not just black issues, they speak to all peoples, all creeds and the fact that their voices and Dr. Peterson's are somehow seen as a out of left field, heterodox views is an indictment of Western media, politics and culture.
This is the best interview I've seen anyone conduct with John McWhorter. Jordan showed a real interest in understanding McWhorter and shared enough of an academic interest in some rather esoteric topics. Truly enjoyable conversation.
Every other week I listen to the Glenn Show with John McWhorter and read as many of his books I can get ahold of, and I often found myself hoping he would have a conversation with Dr. Peterson. Because of the exchange at the Aspen Festival a few years ago I didn't think it would happen, but here we are. So thrilled to experience this!
@@nathanaelmorales760 McWhorter challenged JBP, more or less, on how his training lets him identify inauthentic woke types. E.g… certain pronoun users.
@@nathanaelmorales760 JP was a speaker and John was an audience member, this was during the height of the compelled speech political push and John questioned JP about where he draws the line (as a clinical psychologist) when choosing whether or not to honor a student's preferred pronouns (versus allowing a student to force a professor to change their language as a pure power move). It was an excellent question that Jordan had some difficulty answering to John's satisfaction, but everyone was respectful. After that, John discussed the exchange briefly on the Glenn Show and said he didn't know what to make of him just yet. Both of those clips can be found on YT, I recommend them both
Simply outstanding. Intelligent, informative, non-combative long-form media is such a rarity. What’s even more rare is when it’s done right: both “sides” simply seeking to understand. It’s why the mainstream goes after Dr. Peterson with such zeal. God forbid we begin critically evaluating the culture.
Exactly! They come after Dr. Peterson, but they also don’t want John McWhorter’s message out there either! They coming hard against these 2 men trying to silence them. Very, very interesting conversation gentlemen!!!! 🥂🥂🥂🥂
Your Former observation is the way we should ALL treat discussion. With respect and the will to understand someone else’s point. Now here comes the backhand slap. Why vilify “the mainstream media” for not taking Mr. Peterson‘s positions valid. This is not the way to achieve such “non-combative” conversations. Some people can just close up to any debate when they hear an attack on what they believe is to be true. I mean if you have watched Jordan Peterson speak he touches on this point.
@@mikearchibald744 vilification NO, criticism YES. The “mainstream media” has always cherry picked stories and does have the power to make or break someone’s career, by mentioning cherry picking. But at the end of the day they report actual facts, unlike the now “far right NEWS lol” outlets. They just plain and simple contort the facts. Regarding your second observation, perhaps you misinterpreted who I was making my comment towards. You are correct that Mr. Peterson did not bring up the mainstream media, hence my point on my last sentence. That comment was directed to the person on which thread we are in.
I can’t agree with this conversation more. As a 40 something black man, even though I grew up experiencing racism from some, not all, racism was not my “experience”. It was something I experienced. When it happened, it was a terrible feeling and yes, it frustrated my progress at times. I was taught to push through it and have become successful thanks to strong parents, family and the like. Things have gotten better since then. These days most of the times I even think about racism is when someone wants to talk to me about it… which I honestly don’t enjoy. I’ve got better things to think about. Does racism exist? Absolutely. Is it a part of or at the forefront of my everyday life? Absolutely not. Maybe people are looking at me thinking racist thoughts and I’m oblivious to it lol, but things have gotten better. Better to the point that I can feel the difference as compared to my younger years. Here’s the thing. America has gotten better for all classes of people. But the more we ring the bell of special interest and the more we retreat into our separate groups, the more we risk the phenomenon of self segregation and a return to the days of looking across the field at one another with suspicion, fear and hatred… because we no longer live with and talk to one another. This will make racism return to its former un-glory. And I don’t like that.
Strong family and parents, I’m happy you acknowledge that. Many successful black people forget that they had a solid support system as a foundation and magically leave the fact out of their conversations. Especially when they separate themselves from less fortunate black people without guidance.
So what you are a saying as a black man. Now things are equal for black people? If not how has it changed when people are still getting lynched. I am listening.
One of the things that I absolutely love about Jordan is that it's very important for him to make sure that he doesn't misinterpret people. I've seen him make it a point to make sure his guests have what they are trying to explain, explained. He always lets them know to interject if he has something wrong. He really is a great interviewer and I wish more interviewers would practice this very thing that Jordan does. It's great.
i agree . I've noticed that too--i look for it in every interview and never get tired of it driving interviewers quickly insane! 'Wait, i can't bait or lable or mock or dismiss you'? 'You can't do this'! 'Don't you know why you are here'? I love it. 😄
@@Zorrr and being without utility would be considered a futility? I can see that there isn't an endless supply of intelligent articulate people but I've never thought that was the limiting factor.
@@anneother6224 I’d say the willingness to do so is the limiting factor, however you could also say people who aren’t willing to have such conversations in the first place aren’t considered articulate 😛
I like that JP doesn’t only talk about current events with his guests, but gets them talking about deeper things like music, art, beauty!! love you JP!!
He lets them talk about what they are experts in doesn't try stump them and he doesnt out shine them. He asks them questions he honestly is not sure about. He a great interviewer.
I've never seen such a great conversation, two men who are so in sync. They're genuinely smart, articulate, unpretentious, and just want to learn and have a good conversation.
Im truly amazed how articulate these gentlemen are! Makes me want to pick up a book and start reading so i could expand my vocabulary and be able to express myself better
Do it. There has never been a better time than now. There is a major attack on language as well. One of the reasons why we are where we are is the low verbal intelligence...it is why everyone just accepts everything...
As a fan of both I must say this is Jordan Peterson at his finest. The interview was not only informative but Jordan displayed his skills as a psychologist to go much deeper in exploration of John McWhorter‘s thoughts. The interview seemed as much of a therapy session as an interview which is supremely interesting and informative.
AND John was quick and articulate to illustrate his thoughts and opinions without Jordan interrupting him. And when he interjected it was because he was curious to know his opinion and wanted to know more, instead of just wanting to talk about something
You should see his Theo Von podcast. Peterson provided amazing therapy. It was amazing and I think Theo was using him for that, not in an evil way, but when you watch it it’s quite funny, almost as if he is asking for as much help as he could get while the gettin is good. Lol so to speak
A minority population in college can't possibly know what the typical low income/ low educated person experiences in white society or class. Some points about "racist" tests are true, but not everyone is as deep or college level thinking. Look how exhausting this discussion tired Peterson out🤣
@@skippylanoue966 I think it depends on what you mean by college. Federal student loans help make it possible for those like myself to get to go to college to become better, yet not to the elitist minority for those such as John Kerry, fully disconnected from the people. Telling pipe workers that they should just learn coding. It’s unbelievable. But I suppose what I’m saying is that there are a lot of us for which college educated can be a way of escalating up our small dominance heirsrcies and is a good thing, if the education is used for the better of finding a job. As a guy with a masters degree, I will say that there also are way too many college educated people with 120k student debt who would have done much better with a 2 year trade school to become a well paid X ray technician. I’m thankful to have a good job with my education helping in my case. It just goes both ways but yes there are some awful elitist Yale graduates that think they are superior. This is essentially the Democratic Party. JK
As an animator I can attest to the fact that even action is music when you are animating a character. The foot steps are a beat to which you time the drawings of the the character putting their feet to the ground. Movement is harmonic. Disney animators (classical 2D animators) are pioneers in this study. And that is why every frame is magic there.
@SOUL SEEKER - Matter converts to energy. Energy converts to matter. Energy has waves. Waves have frequencies…rhythms. Matter has waves, too…but with much, much longer frequencies.
This was wonderful. It is like a couple of smart guys meeting at a party, finding a corner and having a really good conversation. Remember going to parties and being able to sit and talk about anything and everything? Remember meeting new people and being genuinely interested in what they had to say?
SO Smart! and SO FAST! I switched my settings to playback this conversation at half speed and was able to keep up with all the gems these two were dropping (which I couldn't do at a party) AND it made them both sound a lil drunk which was kinda fun ;)
The world is much better with men like this participating in the exchange of ideas. You can see a lot of mutual respect. Its clear they're both highly intelligent and educated yet still gained from this very short conversation. I don't know if we really understand how lucky we are to have free access to this kind of discourse.
I don't share John's politics, but he's still one of my heroes. And I don't have many heroes. For example I respect Dr. Peterson quite a bit, but he doesn't make the cut.
We are very lucky to have free access to this kind of discourse, but it’s a complete shame that we are, it speaks volumes about where we’ve gone as people
@@theminister1154 I feel Peterson always 'makes the cut', but of course his field of expertise is not the entire cosmos. He always provides food for thought, even when he admits he's not in his preferred element.
Blew my mind to hear Dr. McWhorter describe my own experience with musical theatre and how it literally feels like church. Beautiful moment in this conversation.
This is one of Jordan Peterson‘s more stellar installments. Much appreciated. I minored in linguistic anthropology and have continued to study linguistics even after leaving college. I look forward to reading McWhorter’s book. And I like his somewhat secular linguistic explanation of the difference between a mere opinion and a religious notion even as applied to ideas that are not thought of as related to the divine.
Born with the ability to mimic the 'music' of our mother-tongue (French babies burble in different rhythms and cadence to English babies), having heard it in the womb, it persists as our 'accent'. Joining the howl is how the physical wolf participates in the meta-physical pack, the meta-pack is what we call God.
@@p1b1harper The body of work coming from Chomsky is extensive. And although many linguists will disagree with various things, he still remains the most significant contributor to the field of linguistics alive today. His universal grammar is only one of the most controversial, but his contributions to linguistics reach much wider and deeper than that particular facet. Even by people who disagree with some of his more controversial positions still recognize him as the father of modern linguistics. Within several fields even those beyond linguistics, Chomsky is quoted in the academic journals more often than any other scholar alive today.
@@RobertWGreaves Chomsky himself has abandoned most of his original theories that dominated linguistics for decades, like the language organ and LAD. You should read Wolfes book Kingdom of Speech.
@@liquidjackson7172 As my primary interest in Dr. McQworter is in his linguistic insights; all of his books that pertain to language development are mindblowing at points. As a kid, I read the "Power of Babel" when it came out-damn fine read. Dr. Peterson's book, "Maps of Meaning" certainly makes you think. I'm far more conservative than either, but I would like to say that I have enjoyed learning about how to listen to the other side without getting in my own way.
As an Italian, blue is also not there in Italian. "Blu" is only used for dark blue, while for light blue we use "azzurro" or "celeste", depending on the exact hue. To say "blu chiaro" or "blu scuro" you are marking an area that would go from a central blue (let's say US flag) to dark blue, but no one would use "blu chiaro" for what an American would call "light blue", like the Argentinian flag: that's "celeste". Our football team, azzurri, would likely called "blue" in US.
Same in Arabic. "samawi" which literally means "of sky" or "sky-like" describes the colour "light blue", "azraq" is dark blue, "kuhli" is navy blue. I think it's the same in English with "red" vs. "pink". Nobody calls "pink", "light red", the colour "pink" is perceived as a completely different colour.
Never have I ever felt the need to listen to ANY podcast a second time, right away! This was just too good; the cautious optimism in this conversation has given me more hope and more joy, than anything I've heard in YEARS!!
I've watched 100hrs of podcast from these two separately. Literally and religiously so in awe of this collaboration. My soul is touched. Great job and much needed intelligent investigation of the truth
I am so relieved to see these men talk, two of my favorite public intellectuals who are truly on the same side of the current "culture war," despite their apparent political differences. They are both role models for me on how to speak, to think, to dare to be wise.
A simplified version of this message would be needed for those of the masses who wish to hear it. School has wasted intellectual potential in many of us, but we’re just the people who may need to hear the message the most.
@@budslack3729 lol No that simply doesn't work today. Today most people aren't even capable of individual thought And the very idea of not having the same opinion as the masses is an alien concept to them.
But as he says about teaching kids languages, you want to speak to people just ahead of their grasp to further them along. I think it's sad that we always want to dumb things down for everyone, when really we should be doing the opposite.
@@dthain First one must answer, "what is the goal?" Is it to intentionally dumb people down or the exact opposite? They way children are being taught screams intentionally suppressing or misleading learning and knowledge.
McWhorter never ceases to amaze me with his eloquence. I particularly like the way he breaks down racism in the end. We can never stop people from having racist thoughts or impulses; we have already done a pretty good job of making sure that overt racism socially unacceptable; there is the real legacy of structural racism, the remnants of which we need to deal with; that is what we should focus our attention on. Turning every social issue or conversation into a debate about race is not contributing to that important work.
You can’t stop racism, if for no other reason than it being useful. It might not be the most efficient thing, but if it’s uses are not explored, you can’t overcome it.
Racism is the same as tribalism. Look at the Balkan conflict. Look at our own Civil War. Even today see how Eastern Europeans regard gypsies aka Romas. Or a more tragic event occurred when members of the Hutu tribe attempted to wipe out the Tutsis.
I think the word racism is used a lot when there is no inferiority or feriority of races implied or intended, but instead we're actually talking about in group preference.
I saw the Aspen Fest interview when John posed the question to Jordan. It seemed to be a bit of tension so I am so glad to see these two coming together one on one!
@@mrthedarkknight3 I think JBP takes the most morally correct and stimulating position in that he tends to have people on who either expand his understanding of something or directly challenge his views on subjects. It's one of the reasons I have so much respect for JBP
Just finished Dr. McWhorter's Woke Racism audiobook on Thursday. It was phenomenal. I'm proud to not be one of The Elect. Listening to 9 Nasty Words now. Kudos to you both.
Does it give a single scrap of advice about how to stop it? To me this is what we are all yearning for and so many books say nothing they just analyse what's bad and why it's bad etc.
All of his works are great, he makes the Audible versions very entertaining, too. If you enjoy his linguistic material he does a lot of the Great Courses that are more technical. His charm makes a good listen out of just about anything.
Does John read it himself? Always my preference. I could never have managed Maps of Meaning without Jordan explaining as he went. Even the inflections provided by the author are helpful.
For me, living in Russia, that is soaking in all the woke agenda right now. It is so invigorating to hear that there are still some sane men in US. I lost my most beloved person this year. He switched into she, but it didn't solve his problem and It killed itself. You're the gentlemen who fight for ones like me among others. Thank you.
So sorry to hear about your friends tragedy. Some people say time heals all sorrows. That's not so. The pain is always there. However time allow us to come to terms with our grief, so we can go on living. Peace and long life.
@@ussarng4649 Very true. And it's necessary to take time to grieve because trying to move on too quickly or suppress that grief makes you resent yourself later down the line for not giving yourself enough time to appreciate what that person meant to you. And it catches up with you eventually. My grandad took his own life about 7 years ago. Unlike most in my family I accepted it fairly quickly but I tried to move on from it quicker than I could and it ended up with me later drinking and trying to forget and that's the worst thing you can do is to try and forget because you'll never forget someone so close to you. So if you take the time to remember that person for who they were and appreciate all the good days you had together it does help to heal the emotional wounds. The scars will always be there but I think it's appropriate and necessary to grieve. That's not weakness, that's strength to face that grief ✌🏼
So sorry for you. Wokism is a lie. Though it won't bring back your friend i encourage you to read the Bible and start with the book of Romans. We have replaced truth with a lie. I desire for you to know the truth. May God show you his abundant love and grace and give you comfort and hope.
This went so much deeper than the title would imply. . . Loved this conversation; thank you both for being so great at helping to make sense of this world!
Great interview! McWhorter is one of the most interesting thinkers out there. Great to hear a discussion with him by someone on his intellectual level. Most of the time we just end up wishing that the interviewer was better equipped (or even motivated) to take advantage of the interviewee's perspectives and better able to elicit the level of responses that they are capable of delivering.
When it is said “we have to move forward in the discussion” (about culture), this conversation is exactly what I think it means. Great conversation! Great guest! Looking forward to reading his book.
I love John McWhorter. You can see he has a great desire to learn and understand things. I think the world would be a much better place if more people thought like him.
I can’t believe I was enrolled in his class last semester. Such an incredible professor and he’s on a podcast with my favorite human being in the world… JP!!!
Excellent discussion. Thanks to both of you. The material about the psychological role of music is a special area of interest for me and you gave some new angles on it I hadn't thought of.
How utterly disappointing that there are so few people like these two gentlemen. Unphased by subject, and capable of the depth of education and the understanding of each subject. This conversation demanded my total attention, with extreme admiration. Thank you, Mssrs Peterson and McWhorter, for sharing your intellect.
What an exceptional discussion! It's always refreshing to listen to rational ideas on such a controversial topic. I'll definitely be looking into more of John McWhorter's content!
I have read his book Woke Racism and it is very interesting and I think very timely in what it says. Do yourself a favor and read the book you will not regret it.
Thank you both for this conversation. I have been running up against these issues my entire life, and every time I act outside of my expected character, my intelligence and level of education are immediately questioned. Point lost, end of useful conversation. I hope this hits many eyes and ears!
Love how he uses the phrase "we as Europeans" without caring about all the meticulous bullshit people would comment, and just uses the phrase in a way that's very constructive to the situation. And Peterson as a Canadian doesn't oppose, like most stupid journalists would, I'm sure, and just stays on point because he understands what the other person is trying to say, and it makes perfect sense in that situation that he uses this expression
instrumental use of language to facilitate conversation, as contrasted with the weaponisation of words to make political power points and leverage an agenda
Loved every minute of it! Bravo to the both of you! The “unpacking” begins @ 32:52 - but, the whole podcast, from beginning to end, is entirely splendid! Thank you, Dr. Peterson.
This is one of the most interesting exchanges I've ever seen on the tube. The respect for open thought and rational discussion can provide great insight. This was very insightful. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to view this intellectual exchange.
Jordan's a really good interviewer it turns out. I've heard a lot of John's press for this book, and he seemed happiest here. Here & when talking to Glen about it.
I admire the way JP is willing to really listen to the thinking of his guest. He has this true desire to learn and comprehend things. And I found JM absolutely amazing, calm, straight forward in his thoughts and explanations. Lovely interview.
What I loved most about this dialog is how the implication is the ineffectiveness of the discussions. All these conversations about racism don't seem to be getting anyone anywhere. The solution (as they both pointed out) is in empowerment and that's a big damn job. Only other thing I'd add is that part of the talk where they were discussing individuality vs the group and what I'd add is that is the reason harmony, not "equality" is the path. We're all not meant to be part of the whole lot of us, at least not yet. But, like strings on my guitar, all those differences make incredible sounds. And music is a gift from the heavens. Peace People!
Thank you so much for this conversation. It was particularly riveting for me because I spent 3 years at a graduate school in California that was severely focused on social justice. It was a soul crushing experience and this discussion serves as a balm to my soul.
Your comment has encouraged me to listen to this podcast. I am not in school but am considering some social-justice-focused programs in California and am feeling very wary of that this very week. Thinking it may be wiser to stay in the STEM lane rather than venture into the humanities. May I ask what kind of program you were in?
@@kmshultz I was in a Master of Counseling Psychology program. There were some wonderful and talented individuals in the program but the school cultural environment felt very constricting.
@@joannasmithtransformationa3138 Thanks for your reply. That is exactly the kind of program I am thinking of entering. A counseling psychology program in California. Evidently it was a hindrance to you but didn’t stop you from moving into your new career. Good on you! Has it been difficult facing the headwinds of the social justice left in the culture of the psychotherapy profession?
@@kmshultz I had been working in the field for many years before I took the program. I took it because it was a specialized program but I think there were other ways to accomplish this without becoming immersed in a social justice milieu.
I social justice left from my experience is more prevalent in certain parts if the country so it would depend on where you plan to practice as to how vehement that would be. Don't get me wrong. I am not against social justice just the way in which it is being weaponized.
This is the first hour-long RUclips video in a long time that I’ve actually dedicated the time to finish. And I wish it were longer! What a couple of rational, eloquent, deep thinkers
@@francoistombe The people trying to shut him up are those on left who know his criticisms of the 'post modern neo-marxist' ideology are accurate, no matter how they try and ridicule and deny it. The best thing they could do for the left is to take his criticisms onboard and correct course.
I think john is definitely on team down play racism. Sometimes he has good points and sometimes you can tell he has an agenda to down play racism for whatever reason.
@@victorioojocaliente2928 ok. Putting aside the simple fact of the wording making your comment seem like a slur… what the hell difference does it make? Do you really think his sexual proclivities significantly impact his abilities as a linguist? Because in this context all that matters is his competence in the field of linguistics. What’s the point of the childishness?
@@stvbrsn I believe he’s married to a woman.... a white woman unsurprisingly. The tough spot johns in is he’s trying to appeal to conservatives, or just the anti woke crowd. Sure some of those people are just annoyed by sjws being annoying but a lot of them are exactly who woke people are talking about bigots...... like our friend victorio here
God bless both of these men. This was such a wonderful conversation. I already respected John McWhorter but I respect him immensely more after this conversation and as far as Peterson goes this was my favorite of his new series of podcast interviews.
Thanks so much for this! I work in a Civil rights agency. This information is so necessary for those who want true harmony between the races. People's best intentions are being twisted and used to foment Division instead of the beloved community for which we should be striving.
@@whenisasnakeatail4933 isn't the ability to travel long distances an example of unnatural manufacture? Isn't forcing people to integrate another example?
@@whenisasnakeatail4933 rentseeking and destroying a civilization is worse than trying to civilize barbarians? I agree with your second paragraph because it is true. Just focus on that and forget the wokeness.
@@whenisasnakeatail4933 A woke JFP fan. I'm not surprised. About Indians they had a method of buffalo hunting called"the buffalo jump" they would drive buffalo herds off cliffs, cut out their tongues and leave the rest. Aboriginals wouldn't even be considered barbarians they weren't even at bronze age level. Don't criticize your betters. They created everything of modern life you take for granted. If you think colonization was such a horrible thing why would you let it happen to you?
Thank you for promoting critical thinking. I probably disagree with you on some things, but I can listen to you all day long. Before we get entrenched in our opinions we need to learn how to receive information.
How sad is it, though, that we've reached this point in social discourse that I so often see this sentiment echoed of "just because I listen to so-and-so does not mean that I agree with everything they are saying." Who would've thought that it would even need to be said? I listen to dozens of thinkers who could not possibly be in agreement on everything, yet I find insights from every one of them to be useful. Sometimes it feels as though there are people that want to treat a very large swathe of the population as being too dumb to even hear divergent opinions without falling into some fundamentalist, radical rabbit hole. I'm not stupid and you don't get to gatekeep what information I am allowed access to! Although I'm sure I'm probably preaching to the choir here.
@@MusicbyWordPlay Kinda sorta but I think listening is a practiced thing as well. The choir still needs to go to church on Sundays. People aren't even putting the effort into hearing the other side so it makes sense to me that you would feel that way. I think I am left thinking, but I sure as hell don't want to be far left any more than I would want to be far right. The far left has become a problem for the left, just as the far right is a problem for people on the right who actually want progress. I am not so sure if we fall down the rabbit hole or if they are kidnapping us at gun point and forcing us down it or else. Can't just be an ally anymore. Got to be an aggressive radical or you aren't with us.
McWhorter’s in distinguished company: Shelby Steele Thomas Sowell David Webb Larry Elder Glenn Loury Leo Terrell Jason Riley Walter Williams Herman Cain People who care more about truth than being liked are rare these days.
A good meet but nonetheless all said company above have walked away from Dem. Party who've diligently & insidiously created the client status for Black voters to cement power while responsible for a corrupted and opportunistic anti racism (RACIST) identity politics, John calls Steele heroic and an inspiration for repudiating status quo black Intellectual victimology but hypocritically is contemptuous of Conservatives in White America unlike Steele listed above. "The Vulgar pride of intellectuals" by T. Sowell immediately comes to mind. T. SOWELL, "A towering figure on the subject of race in America" --Glen Loury.
This interview was really important to me! I’m from Brazil and we live the same kind of issues with racism and deceiving ideologies that clearly won’t take us to a place of justice, peace or evolution as a society. Thank you so much.
Unfortunately, many of the viewers did not get what was going on...Jordan understands this man is crazy but he also understands that he is too crazy to reach. This man is delusional and he is more dangerous to his race than a white supremacist.
Thank you for introducing me to John McWhorter. I loved this conversation. I do believe that all humans are deeply and biologically wired for "tribalism" as a need for self-defense when small communities of people couldn't have known other communities and cooperated broadly This is still represented throughout the animal kingdom. It makes sense that you survived by belonging to a group which offered group cooperation and protection which operated on knowing a limited number of "us" versus the far greater unknowable "them.". If we could all agree that this is just how humans are wired, and that today, the larger world requires cooperation for us all to prosper and enjoy one another, then I think we could subsume a very old biology that is better served by knowing and embracing each other. It deeply enriches the human condition and life in general.
Exactly, racism is nothing more than a new age interpretation of human tribalism that existed since forever. Race as we know it today is an 18th-19th century colonial concoction. Back in Ancient Rome, a dark skinned North African who was a Roman citizen was closer to the light skinned Italian Roman than a white German from a barbarian Germanic tribe. Thus highlighting the stupidity of modern racism.
And let's not forget how much these categories of "race" have been shifting. It wasn't that long ago that many European immigrants weren't considered to be fully white. Why should we think that we've arrived at the end of history and that there is no way to move forward into a more constructive dialog.
@@nunceccemortiferiscultu7826 you think all white people have let go of tribalism? Lol. Okaaay bud. For example, I was born in a city named edmonton. If you were from the sister city of my same province Calgary, and when you understand the paradigm, it's constsnt "oh we are better than them" mentality on both sides. Then take my province of alberta. Constantly thinking they are netter than the province I moved to, British Columbia. Everyone here looks st alberta like the inbred neighbor. I dunno. Tribalism extends between skin color. Google the term "balkanization". The Balkan peninsula with all white people, they all hate eachother and have been killing eachother for hundreds and maybe over a thousand years. I do see your point though. Don't get me wrong. Western culture which has been cultivated by Caucasian Europeans has broken down this tribalism more than anything. And whites do get demonized by a lot of the mainstream forces. But I don't think we are free from tribalism. Even break it down to political differences, white people still have it. But again, let me reiterate, I do get your point
I typically don’t like JP’s interview style because he often doesn’t give enough time to the interviewee. But here it worked better because JM was willing to jump in to the conversation - and occasionally even interrupt - instead of waiting, overly politely, for a proper question followed by a pause.
I would never, for the life of me, be able to formulate responses on such short notice; be it due to lack of attention span, or maybe just practice. The man is an inspiration
@@Cyberfender1 don't sell yourself short. Scholarship isn't just formal, nor simply about the accumulation of knowledge. It's about a humble attitude, willingness to listen to others and the desire to understand. You're very interest in bothering to try to listen to these two men is a big plus on your part. I'm american, but I lived in Russia for a few years. As you can understand, what's happening in Ukraine hurts my heart. But there are so many wonderful people I met and who I love. A lot of the "educated" people in my life asked "why Russia?". It was my "uneducated" granddaddy who told me "go. Most people are just about the same." He was right. Unfortunately, we're seeing a lot of the similarity and flaws. But we are one humanity. That's why I appreciate Jordan Peterson and John McWhorter. An "expert" might boast about their knowledge of literature. For me, as a Christian, I love Dostoevsky: "we will forgive, first of all we will forgive. And we hope that they will forgive us too. We are all guilty. Every one of us is to blame. God forgive us all." -Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky Those are the words of one of his characters in a novel. Taken right from the Our Father: "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." If you have love in your heart, the "education" will work itself out.
This was such a great convo! I've wanted to see these two in conversation since the Aspen exchange. Please talk again sooner than later! There are SO many topics I'd love hear the two of you discuss. Please consider having Glenn Loury on at some point as well!
I love the fact that children do learn language so "effortlessly." I think that the phenomenon is not due to childrens' special ability, but to their special circumstances and lack of inhibition. What adult learner gets to be spoken to and hear language 12 hours a day every day? What adult learner has people so genuinely interested and overjoyed to hear them try to speak and communicate regardless of grammatical correctness? Children do not get offended or feel guilty when an adult or older sibling correct and direct the way they use language. They also first learn a linguistic base thru repetition of hearing and seeing and interacting within their limited safe environment. They have limited responsibility and pressure to use the language to solve complex problems. The scope of their language grows gradually as they gain physical and cognitive skills to match.
I came to know of John McWhorter through his interview on Sam Harris' podcast and ever since I've been enamored by his calm and pedagogic way of explaining himself. He and Jordan together make quite the conversational ying-yang.
This was an amazing conversation with two great minds riffing off each other with intellect, wit and genuine mutual respect. Jordan, love how your interviewing skill and ability has developed and been refined over the last year. Great to see.
I am a teacher and I've been a teacher for almost a decade. And I have been saying for years that I hold all children to the same standards. When the SAT was considering creating different scoring systems for each race I flat-out said to my colleagues that that was probably one of the most racist things I've ever heard. I have seen kids of many races achieve academic success and the ability to do so has nothing to do with their ethnicity. When teachers make exceptions for kids based on their ethnicity that is the same as saying I don't think you can do this because of their skin color. I don't believe that for a second so I expect the same from all of my students.
In my Graduate Progam for counseling, we had a class that was "multicultural counseling". This class emphasized that if you aren't 'Anti-racist' it's now just as bad as being a racist. "You need to be out advocating anti-racism", especially for our clients or we aren't doing our job. I'm paying these people...
@@lacerav5818 You aren't reading what they said. If you do not PROVE you are anti-racist, you ARE racist. Just the way you commented is ridiculously immature and stupid. Get over your moral masturbation you are only a product of your time and culture.
As a minority, I find this thought frightening. Everywhere I am surrounded by people who are offended on behalf of someone else and taking the role of being judge and jury for situations where they are just observers. As a result, I keep race and my pain of enduring racism mostly to myself as I fear someone else taking on my trauma and trying to use it as leverage to add to a reason to justify what people do trying to right the wrongs of injustice. I am technically six nationalities if you go into my heritage on all sides. As someone who is mixed, I feel so torn relating to opposing sides knowing I neither fit neatly on one side or another. What is going on feels like it hurts minorities by taking on the ideology of the loudest voice and ignoring those that don't fit in a box and are uncomfortable speaking up.
@@onlyallegra As a white liberal i've tried to be a good ally. I've talked to several black people and all they say to do is, if your friends or family say something racist, don't just laugh it off. Say something cause most of the time if someone tells a black joke etc, white people will often just groan or something. So i started trying to say hey thats not cool.
I absolutely LOVE Mr. McWhorter. He is one of the most reasoned speakers I have had the pleasure of listening to. I have his course on Linguistics from The Great Courses, I recommend it whole-heartedly.
Nice to see that other men of culture know McWhorter not from his sociology work, but from his amazing video series about linguistics over at The Great Courses!
I expected it to be a fine, insightful conversation between these two; I wasn’t disappointed. Great to hear John McWhorter’s thoughts, expressed with his usual eloquence.
I wanted a conversation between Jordan and John to happen for a very long time. It’s like a comic book team-up between two heroes. Great talk. Great thoughts.
I studied linguistics 1981, 1982,1983. This flashback is fantastic. At least this field is still clean and has not changed in 30 years. Lovely! Thank you!
@@vincentdigirolamo473 Not sure it's a good thing for a field to change rapidly, especially something like language, history, etc. Seems like those should be something that doesn't change every 30 years?
I appreciate so much the abstract thinking of Jordan Peterson's guests but I would also love to hear technical and theoretical thinkers like Thomas Sowell or Victor Hanson to give us the impact of these ideologies in our history and in real time.
@@johnseaverton1820 That is because he is less concerned with feelings and more concerned with facts. He is critical of contemporary narratives, where the traditional and religious that formerly served to sustain for so long have been forgotten, w/the help/encouragement of "white folks" for whom he reserves special blame, i.e.liberals.
I must say, I have been fully drawn into your conversation, as a participant, even only speaking to myself in my living room. This has been a conversation truly enlightening, and exploratory. This has been one of my more enjoyable discussions on race and relations. I grew up in Chicago in the late sixties and seventies, with the discussion "in the streets". There was remarkable interface between you two, and lots of light cast on the current situation, looking forward. Thanks for an excellent choice of issues and perspectives.
I really appreciate Dr. McWhorter. he is willing to look truth in the face and speak to what he sees, regardless or his race/political leanings. Every time I watch an interview with him I am always thoroughly impressed and he did not disappoint here.
Two thought juggernauts, even if they won't admit it. Both of these men have help guide me through the past 2 years of craziness of, as they have said, "Us vs. Them" mentality. Amazing to hear to steel sharpening steel. Thank you both so much for this.
![Cancel Culture and Wokeness [engl.]](/img/1.gif)
John McWhorter is an incredible thinker. As an African American teacher that teaches in a mostly black middle school, I am frustrated to see my students look for racism in places where it doesn’t even exist. It’s not to say that racism doesn’t exist and that our experiences aren’t valid, but looking for potentially racist encounters is anti-intellectual toward the actual cause. They have argued that not being allowed to have a phone during class is racist, or that not being allowed to talk during a test is racist. For some, being atheist is being anti-black. I wish they were joking because the backlash is real. They begin to internalize victimization, and then they stop putting effort into self improvement. Suspending belief is the death of critical thinking. Great interview!
WOW awesome comment. Very well said
@@IUsedToBeANiceGuy Thank you! I appreciate it!
Just curious, do they call homework racist? Grades racist? How far is achievement being pushed as something ‘racist’?
@@jasoncharles8651 It's more complicated than a teacher "teaching what racism is." I teach it objectively as discrimination against someone based on ethnicity or racial group. It is not the sole job of teachers to teach what racism is, especially since it is not part of most curricula. It is also the job of parents and communities. Blaming me or my administration when we only see each student 90 minutes at a time is not conductive to the conversation. I can only explain so much if the student (child or adult, black or white) refuses to be open minded. Much of what a child brings to the classroom mirror their parents' ideologies.
@@bladem.d6029 Fortunately, most of them do not. The good news is that many of those that initially did make that argument did so in September. I have not heard that argument from them now in May. They can be influenced and persuaded to work hard and see homework as practice.
As a motorcycle rider, we are taught that where we look is where we will go. If we look at the ditch, we'll end up in the ditch, if we look at the car crossing our path we'll ending colliding with the car crossing our path. If we want to stay out of danger we look where we want to go, instead of the ditch we look as far ahead up the road as we can. Instead of looking at the car crossing our path, we look at the opening the car is leaving us to move around the car. If you look at oppression rather than the ways around oppression, you'll be oppressed.
damn
That is a very nice way of putting that without too many words.
Great analogy !
Yeah, here in Utah it's the First Law of Mountain Biking: if you look at the rock in the trail, you WILL run over it.
I remember reading a request from joggers to drivers, please don't look at us as you drive by.
John McWhorter and his frequent partner Glen Loury are some of the most underrated academics and public intellectuals in Western discourse today. These are not just black issues, they speak to all peoples, all creeds and the fact that their voices and Dr. Peterson's are somehow seen as a out of left field, heterodox views is an indictment of Western media, politics and culture.
Egg Zachary
❣️
Quite.
Agreed
Well said. Gotta love those guys. Loury is a giant.
This is the best interview I've seen anyone conduct with John McWhorter. Jordan showed a real interest in understanding McWhorter and shared enough of an academic interest in some rather esoteric topics.
Truly enjoyable conversation.
Jordan filled the conversation with fluff terrible interview.
@@tonywilliams49 let me fix that for you. "Huh, interesting, let's agree to disagree."
@dooflotchy
I agree with you completely. It was a fascinating dialogue.
Jordon really tried to reach but this guy is stuck in the Twilight Zone.
I could have listened to them talk for hours. Great interview
Every other week I listen to the Glenn Show with John McWhorter and read as many of his books I can get ahold of, and I often found myself hoping he would have a conversation with Dr. Peterson. Because of the exchange at the Aspen Festival a few years ago I didn't think it would happen, but here we are. So thrilled to experience this!
Jordan has also mentioned he and Glenn have had a conversation.
I await with baited breath, Jordan B Peterson and Lex Fridman.
What happened at the aspen festival
I just made a similar comment lol then ran across yours.
@@nathanaelmorales760 McWhorter challenged JBP, more or less, on how his training lets him identify inauthentic woke types. E.g… certain pronoun users.
@@nathanaelmorales760 JP was a speaker and John was an audience member, this was during the height of the compelled speech political push and John questioned JP about where he draws the line (as a clinical psychologist) when choosing whether or not to honor a student's preferred pronouns (versus allowing a student to force a professor to change their language as a pure power move). It was an excellent question that Jordan had some difficulty answering to John's satisfaction, but everyone was respectful.
After that, John discussed the exchange briefly on the Glenn Show and said he didn't know what to make of him just yet. Both of those clips can be found on YT, I recommend them both
Simply outstanding. Intelligent, informative, non-combative long-form media is such a rarity. What’s even more rare is when it’s done right: both “sides” simply seeking to understand. It’s why the mainstream goes after Dr. Peterson with such zeal. God forbid we begin critically evaluating the culture.
Exactly! Ugh
Exactly! They come after Dr. Peterson, but they also don’t want John McWhorter’s message out there either! They coming hard against these 2 men trying to silence them. Very, very interesting conversation gentlemen!!!! 🥂🥂🥂🥂
you're joking right?
Your Former observation is the way we should ALL treat discussion. With respect and the will to understand someone else’s point.
Now here comes the backhand slap. Why vilify “the mainstream media” for not taking Mr. Peterson‘s positions valid. This is not the way to achieve such “non-combative” conversations. Some people can just close up to any debate when they hear an attack on what they believe is to be true. I mean if you have watched Jordan Peterson speak he touches on this point.
@@mikearchibald744 vilification NO, criticism YES. The “mainstream media” has always cherry picked stories and does have the power to make or break someone’s career, by mentioning cherry picking. But at the end of the day they report actual facts, unlike the now “far right NEWS lol” outlets. They just plain and simple contort the facts.
Regarding your second observation, perhaps you misinterpreted who I was making my comment towards. You are correct that Mr. Peterson did not bring up the mainstream media, hence my point on my last sentence. That comment was directed to the person on which thread we are in.
I can’t agree with this conversation more. As a 40 something black man, even though I grew up experiencing racism from some, not all, racism was not my “experience”. It was something I experienced. When it happened, it was a terrible feeling and yes, it frustrated my progress at times. I was taught to push through it and have become successful thanks to strong parents, family and the like. Things have gotten better since then. These days most of the times I even think about racism is when someone wants to talk to me about it… which I honestly don’t enjoy. I’ve got better things to think about. Does racism exist? Absolutely. Is it a part of or at the forefront of my everyday life? Absolutely not. Maybe people are looking at me thinking racist thoughts and I’m oblivious to it lol, but things have gotten better. Better to the point that I can feel the difference as compared to my younger years. Here’s the thing. America has gotten better for all classes of people. But the more we ring the bell of special interest and the more we retreat into our separate groups, the more we risk the phenomenon of self segregation and a return to the days of looking across the field at one another with suspicion, fear and hatred… because we no longer live with and talk to one another. This will make racism return to its former un-glory. And I don’t like that.
Strong family and parents, I’m happy you acknowledge that. Many successful black people forget that they had a solid support system as a foundation and magically leave the fact out of their conversations. Especially when they separate themselves from less fortunate black people without guidance.
I'm glad you chose the path of persistence and not the path of surrender.
So what you are a saying as a black man. Now things are equal for black people? If not how has it changed when people are still getting lynched. I am listening.
@@kfkstuart I don’t take responses seriously when they start with “so what you’re saying…”.
What exactly is it that you are trying to discuss?
@@BlackPartyFilms exactly
One of the things that I absolutely love about Jordan is that it's very important for him to make sure that he doesn't misinterpret people. I've seen him make it a point to make sure his guests have what they are trying to explain, explained. He always lets them know to interject if he has something wrong. He really is a great interviewer and I wish more interviewers would practice this very thing that Jordan does. It's great.
i agree . I've noticed that too--i look for it in every interview and never get tired of it driving interviewers quickly insane!
'Wait, i can't bait or lable or mock or dismiss you'? 'You can't do this'! 'Don't you know why you are here'? I love it. 😄
label
Jordan is so compassionate. The man is so clueless that I probably would have lost my patience, got up, and walked away.
Dr. Peterson is rather sweet when he speaks with people.
@@robbin-wt8kr The man is clueless? He seems quite well-educated and extremely well-spoken to me. I'm curious to know why you think he's clueless.
Two intelligent, articulate people having a conversation is a delight.
It is also potentially an "unlimited resource", or is it?
@@anneother6224 If that were the case such conversations would be useless
@@Zorrr and being without utility would be considered a futility?
I can see that there isn't an endless supply of intelligent articulate people but I've never thought that was the limiting factor.
@@anneother6224 I’d say the willingness to do so is the limiting factor, however you could also say people who aren’t willing to have such conversations in the first place aren’t considered articulate 😛
@@Zorrr I'd agree to that.
I like that JP doesn’t only talk about current events with his guests, but gets them talking about deeper things like music, art, beauty!! love you JP!!
***True love = the love of God!*** God himself went to the cross for you out of love for you as a human being Philippians 2:5-8
🥉
He lets them talk about what they are experts in doesn't try stump them and he doesnt out shine them.
He asks them questions he honestly is not sure about. He a great interviewer.
I've never seen such a great conversation, two men who are so in sync. They're genuinely smart, articulate, unpretentious, and just want to learn and have a good conversation.
Im truly amazed how articulate these gentlemen are! Makes me want to pick up a book and start reading so i could expand my vocabulary and be able to express myself better
Go for it!
Do it. There has never been a better time than now. There is a major attack on language as well. One of the reasons why we are where we are is the low verbal intelligence...it is why everyone just accepts everything...
Yes--read a LOT of books!
It will depend on the books 📚 you choose 🤷♀️
peterson TRYING to be... 🙄🤨🤦
Discovering Jordan Peterson is like finding a legendary two-handed shield that can also be used as a sword
Tobuscus?
Hell yeah Toby
Zelda fan?
@Mr. Bond lol Dawkins is a kook.
@Mr. Bond and Harris is a spoiled brat who's mad at his parents lmao
As a fan of both I must say this is Jordan Peterson at his finest. The interview was not only informative but Jordan displayed his skills as a psychologist to go much deeper in exploration of John McWhorter‘s thoughts. The interview seemed as much of a therapy session as an interview which is supremely interesting and informative.
AND John was quick and articulate to illustrate his thoughts and opinions without Jordan interrupting him. And when he interjected it was because he was curious to know his opinion and wanted to know more, instead of just wanting to talk about something
You should see his Theo Von podcast. Peterson provided amazing therapy. It was amazing and I think Theo was using him for that, not in an evil way, but when you watch it it’s quite funny, almost as if he is asking for as much help as he could get while the gettin is good. Lol so to speak
A minority population in college can't possibly know what the typical low income/ low educated person experiences in white society or class.
Some points about "racist" tests are true, but not everyone is as deep or college level thinking.
Look how exhausting this discussion tired Peterson out🤣
Well put
@@skippylanoue966 I think it depends on what you mean by college. Federal student loans help make it possible for those like myself to get to go to college to become better, yet not to the elitist minority for those such as John Kerry, fully disconnected from the people. Telling pipe workers that they should just learn coding. It’s unbelievable. But I suppose what I’m saying is that there are a lot of us for which college educated can be a way of escalating up our small dominance heirsrcies and is a good thing, if the education is used for the better of finding a job. As a guy with a masters degree, I will say that there also are way too many college educated people with 120k student debt who would have done much better with a 2 year trade school to become a well paid X ray technician. I’m thankful to have a good job with my education helping in my case. It just goes both ways but yes there are some awful elitist Yale graduates that think they are superior. This is essentially the Democratic Party. JK
I am so glad these two intellectuals are talking together! I was hoping they would! Hope/prayer answered!
This dialogue is literally pure genius! This is a free session of master works.
As an animator I can attest to the fact that even action is music when you are animating a character. The foot steps are a beat to which you time the drawings of the the character putting their feet to the ground. Movement is harmonic. Disney animators (classical 2D animators) are pioneers in this study. And that is why every frame is magic there.
I believe music mimics movement. From A to B.
@SOUL SEEKER - Matter converts to energy. Energy converts to matter. Energy has waves. Waves have frequencies…rhythms. Matter has waves, too…but with much, much longer frequencies.
Miyazakis films have a similar rhythm of movement when slowed down or viewed frame by frame
Excellent reminder. The algorithms must be in rhythm when Bowie pops up in the notifications while listening to this😂
We all know that but who CONTROLS it?
This was wonderful. It is like a couple of smart guys meeting at a party, finding a corner and having a really good conversation. Remember going to parties and being able to sit and talk about anything and everything? Remember meeting new people and being genuinely interested in what they had to say?
Yeah I remember that, seems like long gone times...
Yes!! I truly miss those days.
Membeerrr? I member!
SO Smart! and SO FAST! I switched my settings to playback this conversation at half speed and was able to keep up with all the gems these two were dropping (which I couldn't do at a party) AND it made them both sound a lil drunk which was kinda fun ;)
@@jodykostner7138 Good idea! My brain can barely keep up. Lol
The world is much better with men like this participating in the exchange of ideas. You can see a lot of mutual respect.
Its clear they're both highly intelligent and educated yet still gained from this very short conversation. I don't know if we really understand how lucky we are to have free access to this kind of discourse.
I don't share John's politics, but he's still one of my heroes. And I don't have many heroes. For example I respect Dr. Peterson quite a bit, but he doesn't make the cut.
I would disagree with the “highly intelligent”, John has TDS. He’s delusional outside of linguistics.
Wonderful conversation. It was my sincere pleasure to listen. Thanks to both of these men!
We are very lucky to have free access to this kind of discourse, but it’s a complete shame that we are, it speaks volumes about where we’ve gone as people
@@theminister1154 I feel Peterson always 'makes the cut', but of course his field of expertise is not the entire cosmos. He always provides food for thought, even when he admits he's not in his preferred element.
Blew my mind to hear Dr. McWhorter describe my own experience with musical theatre and how it literally feels like church. Beautiful moment in this conversation.
Are you a woman?
I am deeply suspicious of people who don't like musical theatre. Its the best.
This is one of Jordan Peterson‘s more stellar installments. Much appreciated. I minored in linguistic anthropology and have continued to study linguistics even after leaving college. I look forward to reading McWhorter’s book. And I like his somewhat secular linguistic explanation of the difference between a mere opinion and a religious notion even as applied to ideas that are not thought of as related to the divine.
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Born with the ability to mimic the 'music' of our mother-tongue (French babies burble in different rhythms and cadence to English babies), having heard it in the womb, it persists as our 'accent'. Joining the howl is how the physical wolf participates in the meta-physical pack, the meta-pack is what we call God.
Linguistics was totally corrupted by Chomsky do they still teach his bunk?
@@p1b1harper The body of work coming from Chomsky is extensive. And although many linguists will disagree with various things, he still remains the most significant contributor to the field of linguistics alive today. His universal grammar is only one of the most controversial, but his contributions to linguistics reach much wider and deeper than that particular facet. Even by people who disagree with some of his more controversial positions still recognize him as the father of modern linguistics. Within several fields even those beyond linguistics, Chomsky is quoted in the academic journals more often than any other scholar alive today.
@@RobertWGreaves Chomsky himself has abandoned most of his original theories that dominated linguistics for decades, like the language organ and LAD. You should read Wolfes book Kingdom of Speech.
love both of these guys, reading their books is actually a lot of fun and thought provoking!
What should be my first John book?
@@HeavyK. ❣️
@@HeavyK. Woke Racism is a good one.
You have any recommendations?
@@liquidjackson7172 As my primary interest in Dr. McQworter is in his linguistic insights; all of his books that pertain to language development are mindblowing at points. As a kid, I read the "Power of Babel" when it came out-damn fine read. Dr. Peterson's book, "Maps of Meaning" certainly makes you think.
I'm far more conservative than either, but I would like to say that I have enjoyed learning about how to listen to the other side without getting in my own way.
As an Italian, blue is also not there in Italian. "Blu" is only used for dark blue, while for light blue we use "azzurro" or "celeste", depending on the exact hue. To say "blu chiaro" or "blu scuro" you are marking an area that would go from a central blue (let's say US flag) to dark blue, but no one would use "blu chiaro" for what an American would call "light blue", like the Argentinian flag: that's "celeste". Our football team, azzurri, would likely called "blue" in US.
Thanks for that explanation 👍 🙂 👌
Interesting...
Good point
Same in Arabic. "samawi" which literally means "of sky" or "sky-like" describes the colour "light blue", "azraq" is dark blue, "kuhli" is navy blue.
I think it's the same in English with "red" vs. "pink". Nobody calls "pink", "light red", the colour "pink" is perceived as a completely different colour.
Hence primary colors.
Never have I ever felt the need to listen to ANY podcast a second time, right away! This was just too good; the cautious optimism in this conversation has given me more hope and more joy, than anything I've heard in YEARS!!
I've watched 100hrs of podcast from these two separately. Literally and religiously so in awe of this collaboration. My soul is touched. Great job and much needed intelligent investigation of the truth
Oh. your soul!! How long did you sob?
Amen. I'm glad I've been introduced to John. I didn't know he was around before today and just bought his book.
@@daakrolb Cain
Shawn you freaking rock!!!
Ask Sowell to come on the podcast
That would be 🔥🔥🔥🔥
He is the best
he denies the connection between race and iq.
Ah…That’d be incredible but good luck getting a hold of him. I’m not sure if he even shows up to his office at Stanford any more.
@@robakers4925 ye it’s a shame, he’s probably past constant interviews by now in his life
One of the things I really appreciate about people as intelligent as these two is how much content they can cover in such a short time!
I am so relieved to see these men talk, two of my favorite public intellectuals who are truly on the same side of the current "culture war," despite their apparent political differences. They are both role models for me on how to speak, to think, to dare to be wise.
Recently running into McWhorter, the first thing I searched for was a conversation between these two. Gold.
A simplified version of this message would be needed for those of the masses who wish to hear it. School has wasted intellectual potential in many of us, but we’re just the people who may need to hear the message the most.
Yes but no, people are not stupid, give it to them straight and if they have questions then you can explain
@@budslack3729 You have to give it to them individually. Remember the quote "A person is smart, people are dumb".
@@budslack3729 lol
No that simply doesn't work today.
Today most people aren't even capable of individual thought
And the very idea of not having the same opinion as the masses is an alien concept to them.
But as he says about teaching kids languages, you want to speak to people just ahead of their grasp to further them along. I think it's sad that we always want to dumb things down for everyone, when really we should be doing the opposite.
@@dthain First one must answer, "what is the goal?" Is it to intentionally dumb people down or the exact opposite? They way children are being taught screams intentionally suppressing or misleading learning and knowledge.
McWhorter never ceases to amaze me with his eloquence. I particularly like the way he breaks down racism in the end. We can never stop people from having racist thoughts or impulses; we have already done a pretty good job of making sure that overt racism socially unacceptable; there is the real legacy of structural racism, the remnants of which we need to deal with; that is what we should focus our attention on. Turning every social issue or conversation into a debate about race is not contributing to that important work.
You can’t stop racism, if for no other reason than it being useful. It might not be the most efficient thing, but if it’s uses are not explored, you can’t overcome it.
Racism is the same as tribalism. Look at the Balkan conflict. Look at our own Civil War. Even today see how Eastern Europeans regard gypsies aka Romas. Or a more tragic event occurred when members of the Hutu tribe attempted to wipe out the Tutsis.
I think the word racism is used a lot where the word prejudice should be used
I think the word racism is used a lot when there is no inferiority or feriority of races implied or intended, but instead we're actually talking about in group preference.
@@migueld8970 ...or "deference" in predominate cases.
This is a crossover I didn't know I wanted, but I'm so happy that it's happening. Love these two guys! John is a paragon of class and intelligence 👍
@George Washington wrong
Lol- this is the collaboration I’ve been wanting for at least 5 years!! Awesome.
@George Washington obvious troll.
I saw the Aspen Fest interview when John posed the question to Jordan. It seemed to be a bit of tension so I am so glad to see these two coming together one on one!
@@mrthedarkknight3 I think JBP takes the most morally correct and stimulating position in that he tends to have people on who either expand his understanding of something or directly challenge his views on subjects.
It's one of the reasons I have so much respect for JBP
Thought-provoking. I appreciate being able to witness this conversation between intellectuals
Just finished Dr. McWhorter's Woke Racism audiobook on Thursday. It was phenomenal. I'm proud to not be one of The Elect. Listening to 9 Nasty Words now. Kudos to you both.
❣️
Does it give a single scrap of advice about how to stop it? To me this is what we are all yearning for and so many books say nothing they just analyse what's bad and why it's bad etc.
i have never been made aware of, or met anyone who was of the Elect and read a book that challenged their position - such as this one.
All of his works are great, he makes the Audible versions very entertaining, too. If you enjoy his linguistic material he does a lot of the Great Courses that are more technical. His charm makes a good listen out of just about anything.
Does John read it himself? Always my preference.
I could never have managed Maps of Meaning without Jordan explaining as he went. Even the inflections provided by the author are helpful.
I could listen to John McWhorter for hours. He is always thoughtful and brings an interesting perspective.
I first heard of him in a media clip where he impersonated Trump's linguistic style. Initially, I thought he was "only" a linguist... Ha!
I Would prefer watching paint dry & then watch grass grow, I'm so tired of griffters on the left, BLM & antifa & white liberal suburban moms!
***True love = the love of God!*** God himself went to the cross for you out of love for you as a human being Philippians 2:5-8
I know im all over these comments. But me and my bf love mcwhorter. He is awesome. His book "Woke Racism" is great!
We need more of this gentleman , Doc. A wonderful discussion.
We need more gentlemen and ladies discussing this so wonderfully.
For me, living in Russia, that is soaking in all the woke agenda right now. It is so invigorating to hear that there are still some sane men in US. I lost my most beloved person this year. He switched into she, but it didn't solve his problem and It killed itself. You're the gentlemen who fight for ones like me among others. Thank you.
So sorry to hear that, my thoughts are with you😊
So sorry to hear about your friends tragedy.
Some people say time heals all sorrows. That's not so. The pain is always there. However time allow us to come to terms with our grief, so we can go on living.
Peace and long life.
@@ussarng4649 Very true. And it's necessary to take time to grieve because trying to move on too quickly or suppress that grief makes you resent yourself later down the line for not giving yourself enough time to appreciate what that person meant to you. And it catches up with you eventually. My grandad took his own life about 7 years ago. Unlike most in my family I accepted it fairly quickly but I tried to move on from it quicker than I could and it ended up with me later drinking and trying to forget and that's the worst thing you can do is to try and forget because you'll never forget someone so close to you. So if you take the time to remember that person for who they were and appreciate all the good days you had together it does help to heal the emotional wounds. The scars will always be there but I think it's appropriate and necessary to grieve. That's not weakness, that's strength to face that grief ✌🏼
So sorry for you. Wokism is a lie.
Though it won't bring back your friend i encourage you to read the Bible and start with the book of Romans. We have replaced truth with a lie. I desire for you to know the truth. May God show you his abundant love and grace and give you comfort and hope.
That is tragic. I am sorry for your loss. A lot of people are normal in the west. We are just not heard.
This went so much deeper than the title would imply. . . Loved this conversation; thank you both for being so great at helping to make sense of this world!
ᴛʜᴀɴᴋs ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ, ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴀ ɴᴏᴛᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴋᴀᴛʜʀʏɴ ʟɪɴᴄᴋ ʀᴇɢᴀʀᴅɪɴɢ ʙᴛᴄ/ ᴇᴛʜ ɪɴᴠᴇsᴛᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪᴅᴇᴀs
𝚃ᵉ𝚇ţ𝄍𝑾𝒉𝔮τ𝑠𝑨𝑝𝑝
±𝟭𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟴𝟯𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟬𝟳
ʟᴇᴛ ʜᴇʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪ ʀᴇғᴇʀʀᴇᴅ ʏᴏᴜ;..
Great interview! McWhorter is one of the most interesting thinkers out there. Great to hear a discussion with him by someone on his intellectual level. Most of the time we just end up wishing that the interviewer was better equipped (or even motivated) to take advantage of the interviewee's perspectives and better able to elicit the level of responses that they are capable of delivering.
When it is said “we have to move forward in the discussion” (about culture), this conversation is exactly what I think it means. Great conversation! Great guest! Looking forward to reading his book.
John McWhorter wow! who is this guy? What an absolute hero. If we had more people like him on the planet the world would be a wonderful place
I love John McWhorter. You can see he has a great desire to learn and understand things. I think the world would be a much better place if more people thought like him.
Feels kind of blessed to be able to see this level of intellectual discussion on RUclips !!
Thanks, Dr.s. !
Definitely agree with you on this one.
God, I absolutely love this conversation, especially the deep dives on music, story and reality. I wish everyone would listen to this conversation.
I can’t believe I was enrolled in his class last semester. Such an incredible professor and he’s on a podcast with my favorite human being in the world… JP!!!
Excellent discussion. Thanks to both of you. The material about the psychological role of music is a special area of interest for me and you gave some new angles on it I hadn't thought of.
Shut up.
Collative!! hope all is well love your content!
Yep...for me as well
I think there is significant parallels between music in this role and non-theistic religions such as Buddhism.
Linguistics? How boring until I listened to the professor talk about it.
Dr.Peterson & his guests are always *thought provoking* as opposed to the *thought terminating* discussions you hear on mainstream media.
Omg. RUclips is mainstream media. Stop blaming the boogey man for your inability to see content you think is beneath you.
@@jonathankr inability? And RUclips censors a lot. They removed dislikes too.
John McWhorter is a great teacher and I am glad he got into the arena. I was waiting for this podcast!
ᴛʜᴀɴᴋs ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ, ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴀ ɴᴏᴛᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴋᴀᴛʜʀʏɴ ʟɪɴᴄᴋ ʀᴇɢᴀʀᴅɪɴɢ ʙᴛᴄ/ ᴇᴛʜ ɪɴᴠᴇsᴛᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪᴅᴇᴀs
𝚃ᵉ𝚇ţ𝄍𝑾𝒉𝔮τ𝑠𝑨𝑝𝑝
±𝟭𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟴𝟯𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟬𝟳
ʟᴇᴛ ʜᴇʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪ ʀᴇғᴇʀʀᴇᴅ ʏᴏᴜ;
He’s amazing. I agree with Jordan more politically but McWhorter is brilliant. His linguistics stuff is amazing.
@@agricolaregs What is Jordans politics? he always says he's A political
How utterly disappointing that there are so few people like these two gentlemen. Unphased by subject, and capable of the depth of education and the understanding of each subject. This conversation demanded my total attention, with extreme admiration.
Thank you, Mssrs Peterson and McWhorter, for sharing your intellect.
What is even sadder is how few of us could, or would ever get the chance to aspire to their level of Education and depth of understanding.
What an exceptional discussion! It's always refreshing to listen to rational ideas on such a controversial topic. I'll definitely be looking into more of John McWhorter's content!
He's great, look up the Glen show. That's where he and his conversation partner Glen Lowry host their podcast.
Check out his talks with Sam Harris, and Coleman Hughes.
I have read his book Woke Racism and it is very interesting and I think very timely in what it says. Do yourself a favor and read the book you will not regret it.
Love John McWhorter. He should do audio books; I could listen to his voice all day!
My first encounter with McWhorter was his great courses audiobook on language families
Try his podcast Lexicon Valley :)
Thank you both for this conversation. I have been running up against these issues my entire life, and every time I act outside of my expected character, my intelligence and level of education are immediately questioned. Point lost, end of useful conversation.
I hope this hits many eyes and ears!
Well said.
Love how he uses the phrase "we as Europeans" without caring about all the meticulous bullshit people would comment, and just uses the phrase in a way that's very constructive to the situation. And Peterson as a Canadian doesn't oppose, like most stupid journalists would, I'm sure, and just stays on point because he understands what the other person is trying to say, and it makes perfect sense in that situation that he uses this expression
instrumental use of language to facilitate conversation, as contrasted with the weaponisation of words to make political power points and leverage an agenda
Loved every minute of it! Bravo to the both of you! The “unpacking” begins @ 32:52 - but, the whole podcast, from beginning to end, is entirely splendid! Thank you, Dr. Peterson.
This is one of the most interesting exchanges I've ever seen on the tube. The respect for open thought and rational discussion can provide great insight. This was very insightful. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to view this intellectual exchange.
Jordan's a really good interviewer it turns out. I've heard a lot of John's press for this book, and he seemed happiest here. Here & when talking to Glen about it.
"The Tube"
... heh heh heh ...
sry im not one of the smart ones here xd
They took down Donald Trump in nelk podcasts and Donald Trump was so chill n just cool on that podcast
@@yeadatwunyt8004 we are all monkez broski
But if you listen to some sources, both of these men are right wing knotsees
As a fellow linguist I am amazed by John's knowledge. It was an honor to listen to both of you!
*The ETERNAL GOD would do anything for you!!*
Even out of love for you he went to the cross as a human!!
Philippians 2:5-8
@@Hannestv4607 🤦🏻♂️🤮
They make me to think my children should have come out with a large vocabulary talking like Stewie Griffin.
By his ignorance you ment? He is spewing nonsense about russian language for example. Like as if we have no word for blue. Its nonsense.
I admire the way JP is willing to really listen to the thinking of his guest. He has this true desire to learn and comprehend things. And I found JM absolutely amazing, calm, straight forward in his thoughts and explanations. Lovely interview.
Very happy to hear/see this conversation occur. The rest of my day can wait. Let's go.
What I loved most about this dialog is how the implication is the ineffectiveness of the discussions. All these conversations about racism don't seem to be getting anyone anywhere. The solution (as they both pointed out) is in empowerment and that's a big damn job. Only other thing I'd add is that part of the talk where they were discussing individuality vs the group and what I'd add is that is the reason harmony, not "equality" is the path. We're all not meant to be part of the whole lot of us, at least not yet. But, like strings on my guitar, all those differences make incredible sounds. And music is a gift from the heavens. Peace People!
👍👍
@@emmanuelboakye1124 Thx Emmanuel!
Thank you so much for this conversation. It was particularly riveting for me because I spent 3 years at a graduate school in California that was severely focused on social justice. It was a soul crushing experience and this discussion serves as a balm to my soul.
Your comment has encouraged me to listen to this podcast. I am not in school but am considering some social-justice-focused programs in California and am feeling very wary of that this very week. Thinking it may be wiser to stay in the STEM lane rather than venture into the humanities. May I ask what kind of program you were in?
@@kmshultz I was in a Master of Counseling Psychology program. There were some wonderful and talented individuals in the program but the school cultural environment felt very constricting.
@@joannasmithtransformationa3138
Thanks for your reply. That is exactly the kind of program I am thinking of entering. A counseling psychology program in California. Evidently it was a hindrance to you but didn’t stop you from moving into your new career. Good on you! Has it been difficult facing the headwinds of the social justice left in the culture of the psychotherapy profession?
@@kmshultz I had been working in the field for many years before I took the program. I took it because it was a specialized program but I think there were other ways to accomplish this without becoming immersed in a social justice milieu.
I social justice left from my experience is more prevalent in certain parts if the country so it would depend on where you plan to practice as to how vehement that would be. Don't get me wrong. I am not against social justice just the way in which it is being weaponized.
This is the first hour-long RUclips video in a long time that I’ve actually dedicated the time to finish. And I wish it were longer! What a couple of rational, eloquent, deep thinkers
People like Jordan Peterson give me hope for humanity. Thank you 👍
And note who are trying to demonize him and shut him up (and/or down).
@@francoistombe The people trying to shut him up are those on left who know his criticisms of the 'post modern neo-marxist' ideology are accurate, no matter how they try and ridicule and deny it. The best thing they could do for the left is to take his criticisms onboard and correct course.
I love John McWhorter. He's on nobody's team, he's just a nerd in a fascinating discipline calling out any BS he finds.
He’s also a peeter puffer
I think john is definitely on team down play racism. Sometimes he has good points and sometimes you can tell he has an agenda to down play racism for whatever reason.
He is on the team of good.
@@victorioojocaliente2928 ok. Putting aside the simple fact of the wording making your comment seem like a slur… what the hell difference does it make? Do you really think his sexual proclivities significantly impact his abilities as a linguist? Because in this context all that matters is his competence in the field of linguistics. What’s the point of the childishness?
@@stvbrsn I believe he’s married to a woman.... a white woman unsurprisingly. The tough spot johns in is he’s trying to appeal to conservatives, or just the anti woke crowd. Sure some of those people are just annoyed by sjws being annoying but a lot of them are exactly who woke people are talking about bigots...... like our friend victorio here
God bless both of these men. This was such a wonderful conversation. I already respected John McWhorter but I respect him immensely more after this conversation and as far as Peterson goes this was my favorite of his new series of podcast interviews.
LORD willing, amen.
This is how people should have discussions. Intelligent, understanding, facts driven.
Experiencing 2 such intelligent men have a deeply meaningful conversation is an absolute pleasure. Thank you gentlemen!
I'm so glad Jordan Peterson is still alive to have these conversations. Terrific! 🙂
Thanks so much for this! I work in a Civil rights agency. This information is so necessary for those who want true harmony between the races. People's best intentions are being twisted and used to foment Division instead of the beloved community for which we should be striving.
Exactly. Be smart stay apart.
@@whenisasnakeatail4933 you never learned about the civil rights era?
@@whenisasnakeatail4933 isn't the ability to travel long distances an example of unnatural manufacture? Isn't forcing people to integrate another example?
@@whenisasnakeatail4933 rentseeking and destroying a civilization is worse than trying to civilize barbarians? I agree with your second paragraph because it is true. Just focus on that and forget the wokeness.
@@whenisasnakeatail4933 A woke JFP fan. I'm not surprised. About Indians they had a method of buffalo hunting called"the buffalo jump" they would drive buffalo herds off cliffs, cut out their tongues and leave the rest. Aboriginals wouldn't even be considered barbarians they weren't even at bronze age level. Don't criticize your betters. They created everything of modern life you take for granted.
If you think colonization was such a horrible thing why would you let it happen to you?
Most intelligent, enlightening, enriching conversation I've ever heard. And it's fantastic to see how many people enjoyed it.
It is a joy learning from two people who use language at a level that I can only aspire to.
Thank you for promoting critical thinking. I probably disagree with you on some things, but I can listen to you all day long. Before we get entrenched in our opinions we need to learn how to receive information.
"We need to learn how to receive information.." - Couldn't agree more
How sad is it, though, that we've reached this point in social discourse that I so often see this sentiment echoed of "just because I listen to so-and-so does not mean that I agree with everything they are saying." Who would've thought that it would even need to be said? I listen to dozens of thinkers who could not possibly be in agreement on everything, yet I find insights from every one of them to be useful.
Sometimes it feels as though there are people that want to treat a very large swathe of the population as being too dumb to even hear divergent opinions without falling into some fundamentalist, radical rabbit hole. I'm not stupid and you don't get to gatekeep what information I am allowed access to! Although I'm sure I'm probably preaching to the choir here.
I’ve golfed at Druidsglen several rounds. There for I feel more like I do now than when I first got there.
@@MusicbyWordPlay Kinda sorta but I think listening is a practiced thing as well. The choir still needs to go to church on Sundays.
People aren't even putting the effort into hearing the other side so it makes sense to me that you would feel that way.
I think I am left thinking, but I sure as hell don't want to be far left any more than I would want to be far right.
The far left has become a problem for the left, just as the far right is a problem for people on the right who actually want progress.
I am not so sure if we fall down the rabbit hole or if they are kidnapping us at gun point and forcing us down it or else.
Can't just be an ally anymore. Got to be an aggressive radical or you aren't with us.
McWhorter’s in distinguished company:
Shelby Steele
Thomas Sowell
David Webb
Larry Elder
Glenn Loury
Leo Terrell
Jason Riley
Walter Williams
Herman Cain
People who care more about truth than being liked are rare these days.
A good meet but nonetheless all said company above have walked away from Dem. Party who've diligently & insidiously created the client status for Black voters to cement power while responsible for a corrupted and opportunistic anti racism (RACIST) identity politics, John calls Steele heroic and an inspiration for repudiating status quo black Intellectual victimology but hypocritically is contemptuous of Conservatives in White America unlike Steele listed above. "The Vulgar pride of intellectuals" by T. Sowell immediately comes to mind. T. SOWELL, "A towering figure on the subject of race in America" --Glen Loury.
This interview was really important to me! I’m from Brazil and we live the same kind of issues with racism and deceiving ideologies that clearly won’t take us to a place of justice, peace or evolution as a society. Thank you so much.
Unfortunately, many of the viewers did not get what was going on...Jordan understands this man is crazy but he also understands that he is too crazy to reach. This man is delusional and he is more dangerous to his race than a white supremacist.
I’m brazillian as well and I completly agree with your commentary. We need respect and the ability of having smart conversations about this issue.
Are people of color the majority in Brazil?
@@2degucitas yes! They’re 54% of our population
Thank you for introducing me to John McWhorter. I loved this conversation. I do believe that all humans are deeply and biologically wired for "tribalism" as a need for self-defense when small communities of people couldn't have known other communities and cooperated broadly This is still represented throughout the animal kingdom. It makes sense that you survived by belonging to a group which offered group cooperation and protection which operated on knowing a limited number of "us" versus the far greater unknowable "them.". If we could all agree that this is just how humans are wired, and that today, the larger world requires cooperation for us all to prosper and enjoy one another, then I think we could subsume a very old biology that is better served by knowing and embracing each other. It deeply enriches the human condition and life in general.
Exactly, racism is nothing more than a new age interpretation of human tribalism that existed since forever. Race as we know it today is an 18th-19th century colonial concoction. Back in Ancient Rome, a dark skinned North African who was a Roman citizen was closer to the light skinned Italian Roman than a white German from a barbarian Germanic tribe. Thus highlighting the stupidity of modern racism.
And there's only one race on earth who has let go of tribalism.
Yet they're the ones constantly accused of "only worrying about their tribe"
And let's not forget how much these categories of "race" have been shifting. It wasn't that long ago that many European immigrants weren't considered to be fully white. Why should we think that we've arrived at the end of history and that there is no way to move forward into a more constructive dialog.
Ever heard of Orania or Maritawana? Research those, please and then talk to me about racism
@@nunceccemortiferiscultu7826 you think all white people have let go of tribalism? Lol. Okaaay bud. For example, I was born in a city named edmonton. If you were from the sister city of my same province Calgary, and when you understand the paradigm, it's constsnt "oh we are better than them" mentality on both sides.
Then take my province of alberta. Constantly thinking they are netter than the province I moved to, British Columbia. Everyone here looks st alberta like the inbred neighbor. I dunno. Tribalism extends between skin color.
Google the term "balkanization". The Balkan peninsula with all white people, they all hate eachother and have been killing eachother for hundreds and maybe over a thousand years.
I do see your point though. Don't get me wrong. Western culture which has been cultivated by Caucasian Europeans has broken down this tribalism more than anything. And whites do get demonized by a lot of the mainstream forces. But I don't think we are free from tribalism.
Even break it down to political differences, white people still have it. But again, let me reiterate, I do get your point
I love some John McWhorter. Hopefully Glenn Loury is next!
Be nice to see Cornel West.
lol
Yes definitely Glen Loury is great!!
Two of my favorite people to listen to speak, together. What an awesome conversation. Love it!
Could listen to these two all day. What a wonderful conversation. So pleasing to see two very intelligent and articulate people converse.
I was so excited to see John McWhorter on this. He is a true intellectual, his discussions with Glenn Lowry are fantastic
The way Dr. Peterson actually engages with issues, listens actively with his guests, and still expresses his thoughts is something to aspire to.
I typically don’t like JP’s interview style because he often doesn’t give enough time to the interviewee. But here it worked better because JM was willing to jump in to the conversation - and occasionally even interrupt - instead of waiting, overly politely, for a proper question followed by a pause.
I would never, for the life of me, be able to formulate responses on such short notice; be it due to lack of attention span, or maybe just practice. The man is an inspiration
@@oUncEblUnt420 These two are scholars to the Nth degree. And they converse well together. I love it.
@@markheithaus I have to listen carefully, for a guy, undereducated as I.
@@Cyberfender1 don't sell yourself short. Scholarship isn't just formal, nor simply about the accumulation of knowledge. It's about a humble attitude, willingness to listen to others and the desire to understand. You're very interest in bothering to try to listen to these two men is a big plus on your part.
I'm american, but I lived in Russia for a few years. As you can understand, what's happening in Ukraine hurts my heart. But there are so many wonderful people I met and who I love. A lot of the "educated" people in my life asked "why Russia?". It was my "uneducated" granddaddy who told me "go. Most people are just about the same." He was right. Unfortunately, we're seeing a lot of the similarity and flaws. But we are one humanity. That's why I appreciate Jordan Peterson and John McWhorter.
An "expert" might boast about their knowledge of literature. For me, as a Christian, I love Dostoevsky: "we will forgive, first of all we will forgive. And we hope that they will forgive us too. We are all guilty. Every one of us is to blame. God forgive us all." -Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky
Those are the words of one of his characters in a novel. Taken right from the Our Father: "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
If you have love in your heart, the "education" will work itself out.
This was such a great convo! I've wanted to see these two in conversation since the Aspen exchange.
Please talk again sooner than later! There are SO many topics I'd love hear the two of you discuss.
Please consider having Glenn Loury on at some point as well!
I love the fact that children do learn language so "effortlessly." I think that the phenomenon is not due to childrens' special ability, but to their special circumstances and lack of inhibition. What adult learner gets to be spoken to and hear language 12 hours a day every day? What adult learner has people so genuinely interested and overjoyed to hear them try to speak and communicate regardless of grammatical correctness? Children do not get offended or feel guilty when an adult or older sibling correct and direct the way they use language.
They also first learn a linguistic base thru repetition of hearing and seeing and interacting within their limited safe environment. They have limited responsibility and pressure to use the language to solve complex problems. The scope of their language grows gradually as they gain physical and cognitive skills to match.
Great points!! I think about this perspective as well.
When learning your first language, it's also your sole method of getting your complex needs met.
I came to know of John McWhorter through his interview on Sam Harris' podcast and ever since I've been enamored by his calm and pedagogic way of explaining himself. He and Jordan together make quite the conversational ying-yang.
yin
Do you listen to these monotone inanities to help you go to sleep?
Haven’t seen pedagogic in a long time. From what you’re saying, he speaks as a teacher? Haha very apt way to describe that!
This was an amazing conversation with two great minds riffing off each other with intellect, wit and genuine mutual respect. Jordan, love how your interviewing skill and ability has developed and been refined over the last year. Great to see.
great minds my god
Wow, I was expecting McWhorter in this podcast for months. He is awesome
ᴛʜᴀɴᴋs ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ, ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴀ ɴᴏᴛᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴋᴀᴛʜʀʏɴ ʟɪɴᴄᴋ ʀᴇɢᴀʀᴅɪɴɢ ʙᴛᴄ/ ᴇᴛʜ ɪɴᴠᴇsᴛᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪᴅᴇᴀs
𝚃ᵉ𝚇ţ𝄍𝑾𝒉𝔮τ𝑠𝑨𝑝𝑝
±𝟭𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟴𝟯𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟬𝟳
ʟᴇᴛ ʜᴇʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪ ʀᴇғᴇʀʀᴇᴅ ʏᴏᴜ;..
I am a teacher and I've been a teacher for almost a decade. And I have been saying for years that I hold all children to the same standards. When the SAT was considering creating different scoring systems for each race I flat-out said to my colleagues that that was probably one of the most racist things I've ever heard. I have seen kids of many races achieve academic success and the ability to do so has nothing to do with their ethnicity. When teachers make exceptions for kids based on their ethnicity that is the same as saying I don't think you can do this because of their skin color. I don't believe that for a second so I expect the same from all of my students.
This conversation was riveting to me. Two brilliant minds in a meaningful dialog. Loved it.
In my Graduate Progam for counseling, we had a class that was "multicultural counseling". This class emphasized that if you aren't 'Anti-racist' it's now just as bad as being a racist. "You need to be out advocating anti-racism", especially for our clients or we aren't doing our job. I'm paying these people...
As a lecture my advice is do what you must to pass. Then forget it all and do your own thing
@@lacerav5818 You aren't reading what they said. If you do not PROVE you are anti-racist, you ARE racist. Just the way you commented is ridiculously immature and stupid. Get over your moral masturbation you are only a product of your time and culture.
@@lacerav5818 lucky for you you’re on a video that explains your exact concern! Give it a watch lmao.
As a minority, I find this thought frightening. Everywhere I am surrounded by people who are offended on behalf of someone else and taking the role of being judge and jury for situations where they are just observers. As a result, I keep race and my pain of enduring racism mostly to myself as I fear someone else taking on my trauma and trying to use it as leverage to add to a reason to justify what people do trying to right the wrongs of injustice. I am technically six nationalities if you go into my heritage on all sides. As someone who is mixed, I feel so torn relating to opposing sides knowing I neither fit neatly on one side or another. What is going on feels like it hurts minorities by taking on the ideology of the loudest voice and ignoring those that don't fit in a box and are uncomfortable speaking up.
@@onlyallegra As a white liberal i've tried to be a good ally. I've talked to several black people and all they say to do is, if your friends or family say something racist, don't just laugh it off. Say something cause most of the time if someone tells a black joke etc, white people will often just groan or something. So i started trying to say hey thats not cool.
So pumped these two are finally having a full conversation. Thanks for making this happen Professor Peterson!
This was a beautiful conversation. A symphony of thoughts. I could have listened to it for hours if it had went on for hours.
I absolutely LOVE Mr. McWhorter. He is one of the most reasoned speakers I have had the pleasure of listening to. I have his course on Linguistics from The Great Courses, I recommend it whole-heartedly.
Nice to see that other men of culture know McWhorter not from his sociology work, but from his amazing video series about linguistics over at The Great Courses!
I've got two or three of his courses, fun stuff!
I expected it to be a fine, insightful conversation between these two; I wasn’t disappointed. Great to hear John McWhorter’s thoughts, expressed with his usual eloquence.
ᴛʜᴀɴᴋs ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ, ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴀ ɴᴏᴛᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴋᴀᴛʜʀʏɴ ʟɪɴᴄᴋ ʀᴇɢᴀʀᴅɪɴɢ ʙᴛᴄ/ ᴇᴛʜ ɪɴᴠᴇsᴛᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪᴅᴇᴀs
𝚃ᵉ𝚇ţ𝄍𝑾𝒉𝔮τ𝑠𝑨𝑝𝑝
±𝟭𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟴𝟯𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟬𝟳
ʟᴇᴛ ʜᴇʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪ ʀᴇғᴇʀʀᴇᴅ ʏᴏᴜ;..
I wanted a conversation between Jordan and John to happen for a very long time. It’s like a comic book team-up between two heroes. Great talk. Great thoughts.
ᴛʜᴀɴᴋs ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ, ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴀ ɴᴏᴛᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴋᴀᴛʜʀʏɴ ʟɪɴᴄᴋ ʀᴇɢᴀʀᴅɪɴɢ ʙᴛᴄ/ ᴇᴛʜ ɪɴᴠᴇsᴛᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪᴅᴇᴀs
𝚃ᵉ𝚇ţ𝄍𝑾𝒉𝔮τ𝑠𝑨𝑝𝑝
±𝟭𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟴𝟯𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟬𝟳
ʟᴇᴛ ʜᴇʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪ ʀᴇғᴇʀʀᴇᴅ ʏᴏᴜ;
I studied linguistics 1981, 1982,1983. This flashback is fantastic. At least this field is still clean and has not changed in 30 years. Lovely! Thank you!
Not sure it's a good thing for a field not to change in 30 years.
@@vincentdigirolamo473 Not sure it's a good thing for a field to change rapidly, especially something like language, history, etc. Seems like those should be something that doesn't change every 30 years?
I appreciate so much the abstract thinking of Jordan Peterson's guests but I would also love to hear technical and theoretical thinkers like Thomas Sowell or Victor Hanson to give us the impact of these ideologies in our history and in real time.
ᴛʜᴀɴᴋs ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ, ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴀ ɴᴏᴛᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴋᴀᴛʜʀʏɴ ʟɪɴᴄᴋ ʀᴇɢᴀʀᴅɪɴɢ ʙᴛᴄ/ ᴇᴛʜ ɪɴᴠᴇsᴛᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪᴅᴇᴀs
𝚃ᵉ𝚇ţ𝄍𝑾𝒉𝔮τ𝑠𝑨𝑝𝑝
±𝟭𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟴𝟯𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟬𝟳
ʟᴇᴛ ʜᴇʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪ ʀᴇғᴇʀʀᴇᴅ ʏᴏᴜ;...
id LOVE thomas on this
Victor Hanson is super under appreciated.
Sowell is way too critical of blacks in my opinion.
@@johnseaverton1820 That is because he is less concerned with feelings and more concerned with facts. He is critical of contemporary narratives, where the traditional and religious that formerly served to sustain for so long have been forgotten, w/the help/encouragement of "white folks" for whom he reserves special blame, i.e.liberals.
I must say, I have been fully drawn into your conversation, as a participant, even only speaking to myself in my living room. This has been a conversation truly enlightening, and exploratory. This has been one of my more enjoyable discussions on race and relations. I grew up in Chicago in the late sixties and seventies, with the discussion "in the streets".
There was remarkable interface between you two, and lots of light cast on the current situation, looking forward. Thanks for an excellent choice of issues and perspectives.
What a fascinating intelligent conversation. The world needs more genuine discussion of difficult (and not difficult) topics without the vitriol.
I really appreciate Dr. McWhorter. he is willing to look truth in the face and speak to what he sees, regardless or his race/political leanings. Every time I watch an interview with him I am always thoroughly impressed and he did not disappoint here.
Protect free speech so we can continue having these amazing discussions
ᴛʜᴀɴᴋs ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ, ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴀ ɴᴏᴛᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴋᴀᴛʜʀʏɴ ʟɪɴᴄᴋ ʀᴇɢᴀʀᴅɪɴɢ ʙᴛᴄ/ ᴇᴛʜ ɪɴᴠᴇsᴛᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪᴅᴇᴀs
𝚃ᵉ𝚇ţ𝄍𝑾𝒉𝔮τ𝑠𝑨𝑝𝑝
±𝟭𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟴𝟯𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟬𝟳
ʟᴇᴛ ʜᴇʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪ ʀᴇғᴇʀʀᴇᴅ ʏᴏᴜ;.
I appreciate what you do and you've made a huge positive impact on someone who really needed it. Thank you
ᴛʜᴀɴᴋs ғᴏʀ ʏᴏᴜʀ ᴄᴏᴍᴍᴇɴᴛ, ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴀ ɴᴏᴛᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴋᴀᴛʜʀʏɴ ʟɪɴᴄᴋ ʀᴇɢᴀʀᴅɪɴɢ ʙᴛᴄ/ ᴇᴛʜ ɪɴᴠᴇsᴛᴍᴇɴᴛ ɪᴅᴇᴀs
𝚃ᵉ𝚇ţ𝄍𝑾𝒉𝔮τ𝑠𝑨𝑝𝑝
±𝟭𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟴𝟯𝟲𝟭𝟵𝟬𝟳
ʟᴇᴛ ʜᴇʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡ ɪ ʀᴇғᴇʀʀᴇᴅ ʏᴏᴜ;
Two thought juggernauts, even if they won't admit it. Both of these men have help guide me through the past 2 years of craziness of, as they have said, "Us vs. Them" mentality. Amazing to hear to steel sharpening steel. Thank you both so much for this.
We are versus them, though. That's not a mentality, it's a reality.
No he’s the black face of white supremacy!