Yeah, honestly I think that to be adding more TPOW roles in general, vanilla really needs to have some of the changes from modded. I think the most impactful one isn’t even a role at all, but an alignment - Common Town. Common Town is an alternative to Random Town which any townie can spawn in except Town Power roles. When making lists, this allows you to drastically limit how many tpows can actually spawn, which considering we now have five is very important imo
This just sounds like my role and alignment max limit idea with a few extra steps. Instead of just banning roles you should be able to ban or limit them to a certain max amount and same goes for alignments
I second this. I'd personally just add a hard limit to the number of TPows that can roll in a game. The game gets extremely frustrating as Coven when too many TPows roll into the game to the point that people can just out you solely by claiming.
@@alicel4695 Yeah this is also messing up All Any pretty badly. While Common Town would be nice it's definitely not a comprehensive solution if TPows are going to be this strong.
@@Penrosian honestly, should be a Coven role. Neutral roles don't typically work with coven anymore, so Judge should be part of Coven, being guaranteed to spawn if a Marshall is in the game
People in the replies- Judge does absolutely nothing to balance Marshal. A hard counter that may or may not spawn is not 'balance'. It doesn't change the fact that Marshal is still the strongest TPow that simply has a hard counter that isn't guaranteed to exist. Throwing hard counters on top of each other isn't balanced, and even if Judge and Conjurer countered Marshal it doesn't prevent Marshal from being way stronger than other TPows regardless.
Make the party anonymous, so evils can still chat with each other, just in the presence of the rest of the town. Then there’s some mind games involved, and gives neutrals the chance to hand out info they might not be able to otherwise. Same for coven. This also makes it risky for townies to change their decisions at night, since nothing can be truly trusted, but still hurts the evils some while letting more information get passed around, even if it’s sketchy.
@@Minister_for_Grass at that point its just a way for town to talk at night, since coven would have there own chat, but now has the added bonus of knowing what certain townies would do, i personally like what they did with it
The way I'd have executed a "let town speak at night" role is more of a mail courier. Pick two people during day, they can chat at night, and you can't see it- You'd have to pick yourself to do that, and you don't get to do that. If someone you picked is Coven or Apoc, they don't get evil chat. This applies even if you pick two players of the same evil faction. So if you know two people are Coven but can't prove it, you can isolate them from the rest of the coven, or just one of them so they can't coordinate with the other either.
Honestly I really like this idea of all the ones I've seen so far, I think it'd be a lot of fun! Reminds me of Medium's séance ability in a way too, though you aren't communicating from beyond the grave. Even letting it be yourself and one other person would be okay with me, if it's limited charges (like maybe only twice).
mystic from throne of lies is really similar to this, the main issue from this role from that game is that it resulted in a too easily confirmed mystic townie
Coroner change was necessary: Stone shutting down an entire role as a side effect was just unfun to the point where the entire community hated playing Coroner. The fact that Medusa is otherwise a mediocre and slightly redundant role is a separate, but decidedly lower priority problem that can safely be fixed sometime way later in the queue of things that need to be fixed.
@@vitinho2002Not really, in TT Town should know that stoned roles are almost always Town and not Coven unless something weird with witch or something happened, and stoning anyone after Night 2 is almost always useless in Ranked because by Day 3 everyone should have claimed if Town isn't passive. Also if Town is on pacing to win a coven should be dead by Night 4 the absolute latest before they lose Maj
I mean, Medusa still removes the will of stoned players, so it's not entirely useless. Being able to deny people information can be useful. The hard part is Coven needing to know how to leverage the denied info.
@@Haeters I mean, we know the stoned people are townies but that doesn't change the fact that there's 2 TIs, 1 TK, 1 TP, 2 TPOW, 1 TS and 3 RT per game, and knowing dead people's roles could confirm people and realise there are more TIs (for example) than it should. Or if there are no stoned people and there's only 1 TK claim then you can confirm them (as not a main cov, could still be tt), but you couldn't if there was a stoned player.
@@Beast-yp2eidep can attack evils before they manage to fast vote him, pros can't do the same. Also, Pros is a unique Tpow while Dep is a not so unique tk
I don't know why people are hung up on the fact that Dep can kill fast voters, it doesn't even matter except in a specific circumstance. Deputy can kill 1 person. This means in order to tip the voting scale of the game during voting phase the evils and the town need to be of equal numbers. This means no fast voting will occur since fast votes would only end in a tie(assuming everyone plays optimally, you can't account for stupid). There is an exception to this rule in the case of an evil being knighted since that might create a fast vote situation with unequal numbers, thereby making this useful. But this situation isn't common enough to the point where I would prefer only a single use daykill instead of double use.
Oh yeah, I've used Socialite against the Jailor several times. It's THE Anti-Jailor role. It's actually smarter as a townie to NOT speak unless you got something important to say if you got a Jailor because you will out them if everyone speaks. I am pretty sure Dev's didn't think of it that way or had the intention to have the role work the way it does, but yeah, Jailor is in trouble cause of Socialite. [Sometime's it's smarter to not even Jail N2 solely because of that.]
I like that they added Marshal as it has some testing from better ToS, but the lack of the Judge hardcounter and the interaction with Pros makes it quite oppressive. I'm not sure how to change it to make it work better for ToS2 though because all of the reworks I've seen haven't solved the main problem with non-modded Marshal - its confirmability Socialite is really unhealthy for the game and I wish it wasn't because the art for it is amazing aaaaa The concept of a "allow players to chat at night" role isn't awful but the execution is terrible. I've seen suggestions to rework it to ToL Mystic and that might be the best we can get
@@michaele8444 misremembered the role name - it’s actually mystic Mystic allows two players to speak at night. The mystic can listen in on these people speaking. Alternatively the mystic can talk to someone themself if they feel like it It’s not great but it’s better than current socialite
I felt like an appropriate buff to illusionist would be to allow them to visit non-coven and show them an illusion, in effect acting like the hypnotist in TOS 1. They would still keep the ability to illusion coven as no-blood/not sus/not trigger defences
I think an interesting way to balance socialite would be to make night chat anonymous. Coven still won't be able to communicate well, but they could also establish a secret code of sorts the night before to still talk and coordinate. Town could also fake being coven to trick the coven members, or vice versa, which I think would be very interesting gameplay.
A further point on the prosecutor buff: Isn't Marshal just worse Prosecutor? Pros gets to choose two people to instakill all on their own and then oh no, they only get one vote instead of two for their third kill, and they can also back out of the decision to kill the third person, and they also see the roles come out between kills, and they can choose to space out the kills if they wish. Meanwhile Marshal is at the mercy of the town for all three votes (so if it's coven majority the marshal just dies) and doesn't get the extra vote after the tribunal, so is in the same position as pros afterward.
The thing is that Pros has to do their roles separated over multiple days, which in a 4v4 or such (which happens very often so is relevant), means you can kill them before they get the other proses off. Marshall can do it all in one day, and that one day can make all the difference.
@@BoltTheEmolga in the recent pipetron video i saw prosecutor prosecute two people in one day, and then a third got hanged the same day. so no, that's not true
So about Socialite You're concerns are DEFINITELY valid Since Socialite is a Town SUPPORT role, there can be 1 or more Socialites in the game and if 1 socialite hosts a party with 2 or more socialites in play; the socialites can reveal themselves, coordinate use charges and coven or NA will never be able to use Night Chat ever. I was able to experience this since I got a very stacked town game where Town keeps getting confirmed because of the double socialite gameplay and TI being active all around with massive coordination Not so sure about Pros and Dep, and Marshal since I wish I can rigorously play more of them
1:07 The other main difference is the prosecutor has to wait for the voting phase to prosecute and risks getting fast-voted in a evil maj situation, where as deputy you can shoot the moment the day starts.
I think pros should be a high risk high reward deputy. Maybe it only doesn’t take up a trial if the pros gets it right. So if they mislynch, towns down 2 townies and a trial.
I think Marshal would be fine if Judge got added in too, but as is it’s a bit too dominant. Also, iirc in the modded version of Marshal, it and Mayor were mutually exclusive, they couldn’t appear in the same game. That would be a significant help.
@@Underworlder5 Judge has ToS1 win condition - survive to see Town lose. Judge has a day ability to call court: chat and voting become completely anonymous. Everyone but the Judge is called by Jury, while the Judge is called by, well, Judge, so he can direct evils to target certain people. Judge also gets 3 votes for the day, to help get their targets lynched. This court calling *can* be called during a Marshal Tribunal, meaning a Judge and evils get to take over and lynch 3 townies. That’s the easiest way to put it - here’s a decent video of it in action. ruclips.net/video/u1Wi1ZHZ4sY/видео.html
@@Underworlder5 You know Town of Salem 1 Witch? Their desire is just to have town lose? It's like that, but with the powers of the Mayor. Judge brings (something something) to court. And everyone becomes the Jury. Judge has 3 votes, and it removes everyone from knowing who is voting by design even when the rules were set to have people know. So it can hijack Marshal since the evils can vote without fear of giving themselves away, and they have essentially a corrupt Mayor on their side too. I think its only for one day though
@@Underworlder5 Judge can call court once per game which makes chat and voting anonymous for that day, aswell as giving the Judge 3 votes whilst court was active. It essentially could hijack a Marshal group lynch and kill 3 town if used correctly, which is why it was so good at countering Marshal.
A quick correction I want to make: Marshall is not bettertos original, it comes from a mod for (of all things) Starcraft 2, which I think was the inspiration for ToS1 a long time ago. Marshall is pretty much the same from SC2 with one difference: in the original, unless intentionally making a role list with both, Mayor and Marshall are exclusive. Marshall is generally considered balanced in that situation, especially since there is no other "insta-confirmed town roles" other than those two, of which you get one. Now pardon while I rant about Socialite for a moment... I think you can make an argument night coordination is in fact quite powerful; most Social Deduction games have mechanics in play specifically to make it very tricky to coordinate and communicate among fellow evils. I remember playing Mafia IRL, and the Mafia never got to speak to each other in private. Everyone had their eyes closed but obviously could still hear. The Mafia had to silently point, make nods, and otherwise communicate non-verbally and quietly. Removing Spy as a "anti-night chat" was always a bad balance move to me, but I saw why it was healthy to the game itself: New players don't know what a "Spy" is and will assume that night chat is safe, and accidently reveal all of the mafia to the town. Its hard to even blame the new players for this. Original ToS1 Spy I always found bafflingly overpowered when compared to the SC2 original. The original Spy from SC2 could read whispers but that ability was removed in 2013 because it made Spy instantly confirmed, and on default settings Spy only got to see who the evil teams attacked each night instead of who was visited by any evil teammate. Their ability to read night chat was also limited, if I recall correctly, in that you got to see messages but not which player or even which team sent them. Considering SC2 had up to 3 evil night chats and 1 town night chat, it made it hard to tell if "check 7" was an order to convert them (think vampires), an order to reveal them (think PM), an order to try adding them to the town team (no real ToS version), or just an evil faction messing with a possible Spy. Without Spy (or any role) being able to read whispers, it means that all evils have two options to coordinate. Night chat, which MAY be at risk of being listened via Spy. Or whispers, which MAY cause town to grow suspicious but is guranteed secure. Also, Spy being able to listen could be used to one's advantage. Spies will usually announce their information, instantly confirming real spies to the evil teams, but an evil can also fake spy by intentionally sending specific messages and then claiming to be a Spy that read those messages, so Spy claims are never truly trustworthy. In addition, with a town team that talks at night, evils can pretend to be that town team, throwing further confusion. This is all very fun nuance WHICH DOES NOT EXIST WITH SOCIALITE. Socialite does not make night chat risky and require careful wording. It, without warning, deletes BOTH of your options to coordinate for a night. If you knew a party was coming, you would whisper your teammates your plans during the day (if Wildling was confirmed to not be in play or on your team). You don't know in advance, and you also can't whisper at night, so suddenly you have ZERO ability to coordinate for the night. There is no nuance; unless you are coven coordinating in whispers is too risky, while at night you have no option at all with Socialite. It's extremely toxic game design, and I feel like is trying to solve a problem (that being how easy it is for evils to win if they coordinate in night chat unrestricted) that had a better solution years ago. If they wanted to nerf night time coordination, they should give back Spy's ability to read evil chats and rework Socialite.
If the pirate won 0 duels, he dies if he wins or loses, if he's at 1 win, if he wins the duel he survives. The pirate dueling someonee counts as a direct visit.
The problem is that the Pirate, if they haven't guaranteed a win that night, dies to a Crus regardless, at least to me. A no win Pirate in a Crus game is a sitting duck. I would probably make it so that a Pirated Role (since it's a day job ability, yes?) can't speak at night. It'd prevent someone from just calling out for TP, and would also (to a point) slow down the "Jailor is always quiet" part by having more people unable to talk at night. It wouldn't stop it, since Jailor would always be not talking, but it'd help a little.
@@EverfreeFire one idea i had was having pirate and pirated unable to attend the party, like you suggested, but also exclude admirer and the person they're proposing to, for gamemodes where Pirate is banned
My suggestion for socialite would be this. Coven and NA should be able to whisper anonymously with each other. In addition Jailor should be able to do the same, I.e when they whisper it goes to the jail chat but they can talk in the party. That or just make the socialite unique with one charge.
There's several changes here I don't really enjoy. To me it appears that the thing that got strengthened the most here was the potential for game-throwing. Marshal is a complete hit-or-miss role. It is guaranteed to speed up the game but can be very frustrating, because of how swingy it is. I think that the role should ramp up slowly. Then you're forced to consider more when it is best to unleash your ability. Socialite is a powerful role, but still hard to gauge exactly how much impact it will have. I'd prefer it if players would be given a choice on attendance at the beginning of the night. And we need roles that counter socialite. Let poisoner randomly poison several attendees if they still have their charge. Let werewolf rampage the party at the cost of revealing. Let pestilence spread their disease (double the number of infected attending). Prosecutor needed the buff, but I think it was approached badly. I like that they can now prosecute up to twice in a day, but dislike that it still allows for a regular lynch. Deputy could be rolled into Vigilante at this point. Illusionist/Seer are good changes.
Ngl the Socialite's party ability should be a single time ability, not 2. And if it isn't already, it should be an unique role... I don't play ToS 2 so idk about it that much but ya, the new roles seem too powerful for now. Edit: idk much about socialite so sry if I get something wrong
I think Marshal is the most fun role ever made in mods and the entire game as a whole, but I 100% agree that ESPECIALLY without Judge it's way too powerful, not to mention Modded TOS1 was usually played with good players who would throw was less with it. With it being in vanilla TOS2 things could get bad fast. That's not even the role's fault it's just not built for the TOS2 meta.
I played Modded ToS1 and yeah... Marshal is busted without Judge acting as a counter, since Judge can fakeclaim Marshal, force the REAL Marshal to reveal themselves, and then just screw over Town, but only if all the players in the lobby are good...
The first difference between shooting a target and hanging a target that comes to mind is shooting bypassing Jester shenanigans and Exe Pushes; both which would punish the Prosecutor one-sidedly. i.e. The deputiy gets immunity from retaliation for shooting the clown-classes, but is less versatile in them not being able to kill horsemen amd less powerful due to only having a single bullet.
A change I've seen recommended for socialite is to make it so you can't party two nights in a row, giving it a global cooldown which allows evils to have a night of freedom after a party. I'm not sure how balanced it is but it does sound a bit better to me than the current situation, where multiple socialites can completely shut down night chat
Yes and no. If they were given that ability, I'm sure town would just start saying to lynch the people who didn't talk during night, unless if evils were somehow able to swap between chats.
For marshal, there is a lot that needs to happen for it to be balanced. Maybe if they add a condition for games that role a marshal, no other tpow can be rolled for that game. If they don't do that much, it's only monarch that can coexist with marshal. Idk. For socialite, keep town chat separate from evil chat so that evils can still coordinate and for town, make it so that every townie is completely anonymous with no numbers and same name tag of "unknown" or "town member". This way town still has to figure out who is evil and who isn't while getting a little more time to coordinate These are just some ideas to bounce around
separating town chat and evil chat would just confirm towns extremely easily. even making them anonymous would help little, since they can just say who they are. after all, if only real townies can speak up and listen, then there is no reason to lie about who you are
@@Underworlder5 maybe throw in nes like exe, doom, and jest into town chat to make you think twice about open claiming early on or to throw in a little chaos to keep town on thier feet while still keeping coven, na, and nks separate and to be able to maintain their ability to coordinate.
Honestly, one thing that could be done to balance the Socialite would be to have everyone appear as Anonymous. Evils can still coordinate, but town will know. Like, for example: Conjurer: Coven member down of me, target this player I'm choosing. This would give a little info to town, but this could be orchestrated in night one, so if they say "down", they mean up, especially if the player who says it is 10, but no coven is below them.
Marshal in all any feels terrible unless you have a plan, and can scum read/ pick out the evils early (2/3's are nice, 1/3 just speeds up the game.) in ranked, with smart players, it's too strong too fast.
I think socialite should maybe instead of shutting down night chat, should extend the day or only townies can talk during the party but are restricted on what can be said, or it's optional if you want to go to the party or not instead
DAY KILLING roles were the most mind hitting thing when I moved from ToS to ToS2. Mind you, I played first game ever since it was free, had no silver coins and interface was extremely simple and not so colorful like today's Tos The only way Town could kill someone during they day was Trial, easily and possibly able to backfire by trickery of evildoers Another ways to have an ability to leverage by day killing made a huge change in my head - it's now much more dangerous to attempt the "vote hijack" as evildoers when you know there might be a Day killer, removing your advantage And if we talk about both Deputy and Prosecutor being present, even before this change, I considered them both strong in their own ways, making them both different in approach Since Deputy's shot didn't count as Vote Execution, it was a reliable way to remove potential evildoers and also persist with another way for Town to kill, while Prosecutor, albeit having two charges (meaning two potential kills), uses the potential Town Killing vote stage, making him more uses in future, but overall not affecting amount of kills Town can do during days if only one of Day Killers are present I don't take into consideration APOCALYPSE roles, honestly. In more usual gamemodes the fact that Trial is Ultimate death (nothing protects from it) never comes in fact - nobody but Apocalypse have immunity to being shot by Deputy, making them equal in their "power" to kill Now the differences between Pros and Deputy are their alignment only, with Prosecutor actually being more useful with him having second charge, being unique Town Power, etc. In my opinion, they both can stay, but recent change really made them look similar instead of differing them
An argument against the potential meta gaming behind the Socialite role is the possibility that Coven can establish a (In case of socialite break this) code. While not as simple as being able to coordinate between town, it's still a possibility and dare I say it might already be happening. This is something I never wanted to implement in my own games because it feels wrong but its something I fear will come into light at some point
Those where some verry good points. The issue right now is not that town is weak, There are simply TOO MANY TROLLS AND REGHUNTERS WHO THROW GAMES FOR NOTHING
1:03 Another difference is that Prosecutor is extremely vulnerable to what I like to call Predator Killers - killing roles that prey on the actions of other players. More specifically, Jester and Executioner. Prosecutor also cannot use their ability until the Voting Phase, and has to click like 3 buttons to use it. This makes them vulnerable to a fast-vote in Evil Majority. Aside from this, I do think having them as separate roles is a good idea, though I think Deputy should receive a few changes to make it a bit more... well, different. Not sure how I'd change them though. Perhaps removing their insta-confirm could be a good way to go about it, and making them have Blood the following night. 3:19 Okay, here's an idea for a nerf - players can Whisper during social gatherings, and the other players won't be told people are whispering. This way, Evils can still coordinate, but not with their whole faction at the same time. 22/04/2024 Edit: Okay, rolelist RNG. Y'know what might potentially fix that? Let's bring over a role from Blood on the Clocktower. *Pit-Hag* Alignment: Coven Utility Ability: Each night, choose a player and a role: If the role is not in-play, the player becomes that role (keeping their original alignment). You do not learn if your transformation failed. That Town Power claim? Whoops, they're a Coroner now. The guy claiming Monarch saying they'll reveal themself tonight? Yeah, no, I disagree, you're a Vigilante. Is the Jinx making a bold play and claiming Town Power? They've told you in night chat that they're already satisfied with their kills, so how about a Coven-sided Prosecutor? The Pit-Hag would open up a lot of ways for Coven to neutralize more powerful roles (particularly insta-confirm roles) without needing to kill them. It can throw a lot of shade on your Mayor claim if you can't hit the insta-confirm button, and it gives Evil players the option to claim Town Power, and later claim to have been Pit-Hagged into a weaker role.
Socialite: Make unique and cooldown between entertainment Marshal: Add judge Add Transporter back, but with changes that make the role less confusing - if you visit a transported target you know who they were transported with and get their results - a spy’s bug reveals who was transported - Transporter is a town power - a coven power counterpart to transporter, the only difference being obviously they’re suspicious
i have a theory about Dreamweaver meta Coven will claim dreamwoven so they can confirm themselves as townies (since dreamweaver can only dreamweave town) Dreamweaver needs to dreamweave at least one or maybe 2 players to confirm it's a dreamweaver game
I currently have 150 hours in ToS2 and I love the game. I haven't had a negative experience with Socialite but I completely agree with your points on it, honestly they should be unique and have only 1 use imo. But my last 4 AA games where I was a town (and even claimed) got killed by a day 2 Marshall because they wanna troll and they even opening admit doing so. Honestly after that, it really killed my enjoyment of the game and I haven't been interested in playing it since. It sucks because I like the game
To answer your question about Dep vs Pros: Prosecutor is Unique, Deputy is not. Prosecutor gets two charges, Deputy gets one. Prosecutor can kill evolved horsemen, Deputy cannot. So Pros is a much stronger Dep basically. Is there a point of having both? No idea. But I am very happy they buffed the Pros cause it used to be a joke.
"RIP Medusa" Coroner can bypass most coven tricks, it was always weird that Medusa was the exception. This is just a consistency change more so than a Medusa nerf.
personally, i am glad coroner gets buffs. for a long time it was pretty much just invest but worse, and no one wanted to be a coroner. now it has a useful niche in being one of only two infallible town roles (alongside spy)
Also there is a difference between judge and dep that is fairly significant, albeit mostly technical differences. Dep is TK, cant kill every role, and only gets 1 use. Pros is TPow, can kill every role, gets 2 uses, but also triggers jester and exe. The differences are significant even if they dont feel significant, and functionally play the same way from the players perspective who rolls it.
Socialite shadownerfing pirate is something I hadn't considered, but highly appreciate. I do wonder if voodoo should get a buff (silencing silences you the following day AND night, so no talking to jailord, no talking to apocs, no talking during parties) and admirer should get a nerf: You don't get to know your lover's role until night ends.
I emphatically agree with most things mentioned, along with the overall sentiment that both roles are dubious additions to the game. But I think there's some very strong built-in counterplay to two of the Socialite metas you mentioned: Veterans can stay silent during a party and alert, which provides a strong counter to jailor hunting that way. Maybe not enough to stop coven from employing that technique, but at least neutering its effectiveness enough that silent parties don't become meta. Goading a vigilante into taking a bad shot is such a powerful swing for evils that I expect your admirer play to be done by fake admirers in some similar proportion. I think vigis being put on the spot with whether to trust a whisper from an admirer claim is a compelling moment of tension that will be good for the game.
Regarding Prosecutor, I think it'd be neat if the town still got to vote guilty/inno on Prosecutor trials, with the Prosecutor not being able to vote. Even if most of the time, the right thing to strategy for the town is to all guilty (since the trial doesn't end the day anyway), but it would add some counterplay and make the Prosecutor not able to win 1v1s.
I think having more town power is good as long as they can’t dominate an game, I feel like the difference between Marshal and Mayor/Prosecutor is that those 2 roles are benefit from revealing during a mid area of the game, while marshal benefits from the beginning and near the end, both times where it should be the least clear on what to do, meaning that it is easier for Marshal to wipe out multiple evils, while Mayor and prosecutor have to be careful when they use their ability out of fear of wasting it or making a clear mistake
Deputy still existing now that Prosecutor is just better in every way is probably something that SHOULD be changed, but is understandable for now since Prosecutor is a unique TPow and Deputy is a non-unique TK. At any rate, Prosecutor needed SOMETHING, since Deputy or Mayor outpaced old Prosecutor in any potential situation, so reverting this change would mean having to give Prosecutor something else in order to keep it from being too weak. Marshal is wildly unbalanced, yes. It'd be better if Judge was added too in order to balance it out, but Judge using the Witchcon would be tough for BMG to implement without fundamentally changing how they organize Neutrals. Clearly the correct answer is to just steal ALL of BToS2 so they can use the NP subcategory (Joking... unless?) I think Socialite is okay, in concept, but needs some changes. First, it should be made unique. I know BMG wanted to reduce the unique roles to only TPow to allow more fake claims, but as it stands, 2 or 3 Socialites randomly appearing has the potential to shut evil night chats down for THE ENTIRE GAME. Secondly, the ability should be 1 charge instead of 2. That way the Socialite needs think like a Deputy and choose between using the party early to confirm themself, or remaining unconfirmed and potentially dying so you have a chance to use it at a crucial moment later.
The issue with Marshal existing without its modded counters is a lot like why I think AA needs a ranked mode. Potential for a role (and its signature mechanic) to exist opens up so many more options for fake claims, countering enemy factions, and defending against being caught. Also, if Transporter comes back, it opens up the option of Enchanter forging kills as coven. Too many ToS1 plays can't be done because ToS2 lacks the mechanics.
i like the idea of socialite but it needs some tweeks for sure. Only 1 use, maybe it selects a number of random Alive Players instead of all players minus jailor/jailee, maybe whispers could still be used. just a few ideas.
I actually like deputy and prosecutor both existing, but it could need some tweaking I mostly think it would be fun to have both roles (Pleasd now i don't really understand how the buffs work so this could not even be possible, a good idea, or even balanced) Prosecutor doesn't use a trial so you could use deputy's role right after the prosecution as well. This is especially useful in my opinion if you are confident that someone is evil and town isn't voting them you can just shoot the evil person before town can shoot themselves in the foot (of course if you don't do it yourself) Besides it isn't likely that you will have pros and deputy in every game and different strategies will be needed! Plus they could tweak deputy to no longer reveal and give an extra shot to them. It would still be a hard role to fake, give them more power, and protect them from basically being instantly killed afterwards or being a sitting duck. Plus it wouldn't be good to just reveal yourself after you shoot since you would be instantly killed for being a threat by coven (Like i said i have no idea how meta is, i just think it would be fun)
I think a way to nerf socialite while keeping the main mechanic is to just make the chat anonymous, so town can still coordinate and evils still have a weaker but existing way to make choices
Marshal is "Oh, you wanted to hang three townies today? I can do that." It's a role that's more powerful if it never uses the ability. Socialist is kinda.. meh/ Which probably means it's balanced. But we have enough TSs who can self-confirm.
Functionally, Pros was a worse Dep previously, although it could pros twice, but if they got a jester, they went 1f1, where as dep in the same situation would go 1f0. At least now, if that does happen, they can also smack another person they suspect is evil and you still also get to vote as well. A good pros in the right position now can certainly turn a losing situation into a winning situation more easily than a deputy, even if they do accidentally hit a jester. Marshal in my opinion should be it's own alignment, Town (Chaos). Town Chaos are roles with game-altering effects (Like lets say, transporter from ToS1 changing whom is targeted by stuff) that can absolutely carry the town on their own if played right, but can give the game to evils if they get it wrong. (Lets be honest, we all know a game where the transporter transports the jailor and mayor into the mk/ck target.) Let us not forget that a lucky NA/Coven that town confirms as good might get to control the tribunal more than the Marshal. We also know that town tends to follow votes, so the first person to get 3-4 votes tends to get upped regardless if it's fast, so also a 3-4 coven game could absolutely fast vote people the marshal wasn't intending. In summary, yes, Marshal is powerful, but it can be undermined, unlike Pros or Mayor. I also def feel that Socialite should be 1. unique, and 2. only have 1 charge, 2 charges is frankly game breaking. On the flip side, i think having a role that can remove coven/na from coordinating for a night is a great way to tell coven / na newbies that 'Hey, you have this resource, use it when you can'. Sometimes you don't know how good something is until it's gone kind of thing. Socialite also nerfs TP/LO claims a little, as not only does it show NA/Coven/SK/WW who is NOT protected (Because you'd expect your tp and LO claims to coordinate with free night chat). It also can cause evils claiming TP to be caught out when someone claims they have defense on a night they claimed they were protecting someone.
As it stands, pros is a better deputy. The only difference is jester or executioners, which counters pros but not deputy. And pros can kill horsemen roles, unlike deputy. Pros should be forced to use trials separately, so that they can't pros twice in one day. Socialite, as some people pointed out, should allow evils to whisper [invisible, like tos1 lovers whisper] during the night. It would make it harder to coordinate, but not impossible. Maybe jailor could speak in both socialite and jail chat, with a tab to swap between the two? Or it could be the risk of socialite using their ability to out jailor. What if a pirate gain basic defense after successfully pirating someone? Still dies to sk, coven, shroud, crus, and vigis if they fail to pirate someone, but makes it easier to survive after winning the first match.
As someone who only watches ToS2. Prosecutor and Deputy are both fine to have even if they are the same role after all both are fun to watch the person playing them. Edit: Marshall on the other hand sucks to watch the role has incredibly small use cases and gets rid of the usual talking to people and what not instead making town/mafia speed vote everything.
yeah, marshall really came out just instantly demolishing games, ending them fast for town or coven, most of the time coven due to how little control they have over their own claims, with seer and spy often being as strong as a single click to guess who's evil and who isn't, it just sucks sometimes honestly, illusionist's only ability is locked away because spy can instant confirm a coven member from their use even on N1, so even if you have 10 TI on you, one spy will remove the ability to provide any defense since spy is a tough claim and rarely faked unless its the PB or baker or something like that, basically a hard confirmed evil like half the time illusionist uses their ability, unless pb visits your coven and gives them a touch of death basically, you're left guessing more often than not also dep and pros being different was kinda a good thing, pros being weak to jester and exe isn't exactly the top priority to give him 2 shots + all the benefits of dep and more, basically dep is just "slightly worse pros" now unless its clearing out a jester, which is safer for vigi or jailor to take out socialite is 'fine' in the sense that, in a perfect world, they'd be able to invite specific people instead of just everyone, meaning they could select only town or only coven into their private chat through clicking each person's name and allowing some counterplay like a coven making a good claim in the socialite chat and then the next night telling the rest of the coven about the info, making socialite feel like there was like say 3 coven in their chat due to how coordinated things were against them
I think that while pros can kill twice as many people as the deputy, pros is a "trial", so you can get jestered / exed, but even so you can kill twice as much as dep if you aim well so he's just so much more powerful
Honestly I personally think Socialite is alright, all it takes to counter the jailor strategy is for some more townies to stay quiet. Maybe one nerf i'd add is socialite cannot party on 2 consecutive nights, as that could give town a massive advantage and lynch the evils before they can coordinate anything. Also would take better care of the jailor problem Marshal on the other hand is stupidly OP and needs a massive nerf BADLY. Here are some I'd suggest: - During a tribunal, you cannot see who is voting or speaking. This gives evils an opportunity to lynch a tpow without being detected. Making it risky in early game. - Marshal gets hangman'd for war crimes if two or more townies are lynched. - Marshal cannot be saved from Dreamwaved. Giving the marshal a tough choice - reveal and risk mislynching, or don't and have to wait till DW dies. Also I think Prosecutor also needs a nerf. The rework allows pros to use all his prosecutes in 1 day which is broken. So simply, not allowing that. Also if i may suggest: - Deputy: If the target has any defense, they will not die. Add Guardian Angel as a role* so someone who survives this isn't too obvious evil. Deputy also gets 2 bullets, but gets revealed after the first. - * Guardian Angel, a neutral role that automatically protects target from being shot/conj'd during the day. GA also has a special ability that can prevent their target from being hanged/pros'd, which they can use once, but using this will reveal them and undo that trial, so 1 trial left even if it was last trial. AS LONG AS THE GA IS ALIVE said target cannot be hanged that day. Meaning that GA will have to be shot/pros'd in case of a particularily dangerous target, or town will have to wait a day. GA wins with whatever faction their target is, if its a target that leaves town they will leave town too. One faction can have 1 GA max. GA cannot be ritted or doomed. GA cannot defend their target at night and dies if the whole faction of their target died, citing "they failed their duties and were reduced to ash" or something. unsure how tribunals would be handled though.
Not sure about the Jailor reveal issue, but I think an easy way to make Socialite not just block coven would be to allow coven to (silently) whisper eachother during the party. Letting town communicate at night is still really strong, and it would still hamper Coven's ability to communicate at night, but not disable it. Maybe allow the Jailor to talk but not the person jailed?
I don't know how balanced it would be, but my gut feeling for how to fix socialite is for them to select like 2-3 people and then have a group chat there. If you manage to select a jailed target or jailor, it could say "one of your invitees was too busy to attend" and then you wouldn't have a party period. Additionally, you also wouldn't be able to select the same person twice in a row. This way it keeps jailor safer, doesn't necessarily completely remove coven's ability to plan, as only the invited coven member wouldn't be available for chat. If it gets to the point at the end of a game where you've already invited everyone alive to a party, there's not enough people to throw a party anyway so your ability would just fail. Again, this is just my gut feeling, whether or not it would be a good change I have no idea
they seem to be to far in one direction and my mindset is like they seem to be pushing away new players as the more roles you add in the more u need to know it also allows for shorter games as both marshal & Socialite can find coven easy which in turn could put coven in a bad state in the game making it seem that the game is to overbalanced and “non-playable”. I just think they need strength poisoner to allow for: If the poisoner poisons the socialite a day before they use a party, the party does not happen. So we could have it more balance and the coven get to talk For Marshal I feel like you just need one more coven role that can kill during the day bc you have dep,pros, & now marshal VS Conj. To me if u have all 3 VS a Dreamweaver,conj, wilding, witch Or whatever & u don’t kill at least one of those roles, their gos your entire team. So ADD another role for coven Or I know in a mode Marshal & judge was hand & hand meaning only one will appear in a game this, would really help say with Marshal & Pros, Marshal & Socialite, Marshal & mayor etc. Also we need socialite to be a unique role too.
I have always thought that deputy and pros were essentially the same with one always being just a better/worse version of the other. At least this way it makes sense, considering town powers are supposed to be, well, powerful. The way it was before, deputy was more or less strictly better than pros, since pros basically didn't do anything (it was literally impossible for him to escape evil majority, or even a tie, unless it was a 1v1). Now pros is in almost every respect a better version of deputy, with the minor caveat of jester and exe. I agree with you that it really doesn't make sense for both of them to exist, considering how similar their roles are. Removing one would also mean less self-confirming roles, which I think would help a lot.
Another thing I think we’ll see is Doom win rates going up. But also, we need to wait for the meta to settle for any concrete opinions. Everyone rushes to get their opinions out fast instead of getting their opinions well formed. Though I will say, Socialite is very confirmable by itself (though you can fake claim it fairly well, I’ve found) and might wanna be a TPow? Or maybe limit parties to 1? I don’t really know. It just feels like it has the confirmability of Monarch.
I think Deputy is used to kill less important evils like NEs or a coven member without the book so the prosecutor doesn't have to. It can also take out a conjurer before it kills while I think prosecutor is used to take out more powerful evils like horsemen. It can be both though.
i might be crazy but tbh i think that coexistence of pros and dep is fine. pros is a unique tpow and triggers on hanged effects while dep is a non-unique TK that can shoot jesters and exe targets and be a-OK
Deputy also isn't affected by Exe or Jest to my knowledge but again, these are very minor differences in my opinion. Right now it seems like the most important difference between the two roles is how many times they can use their abilities. This makes me think that the new Prosecutor will likely make the Deputy a redundant role as things currently are. One way to remedy this is to slightly rework Deputy so they actually have a minor ability they can use after they shoot their shot.
If they limited Pros to only being able to pros once a day without ending the day, you get the deputy who can shoot much faster than a pros can pros and can safely take out a jester and stifle an executioner while also being able to confirm a horseman, and then you have pros who is weak to executioner/jester but is able to outright take out a horseman, and can go again the next day as long as they survive. I feel like that does actually make them different enough to warrant them being in the game together, especially since deputy is not a unique role and prosecutor is.
I have got idea how Marshal can be nerfed. Maybe tribunal can be counter of conj nukes them during the day and stop tribunal. Also once tribunal starts other tpow and dep cant use there abilities during tribunal
I feel like Pros and Deputy don't have enough distinction now and new Pros also dilutes Marhsall's role. Pros went from being the clearly inferior version to the vastly superior version. I think allowing the Pros to use their ability while someone (including them) is on the stand, lynching their target instead of the person who was voted up, and then ending the day as normal would have made it distinct from the Deputy, only slightly more powerful than it was (they still couldn't win a 2v1 because they'd just get killed the next night). If you REALLY wanted them to be a powerful 2v1 tpow machine, you could give them basic defense on the night following a Prosecution. There's too much activity in the Town-Led "Daytime Multi-Kill" space now between new Pros, Deputy, and Marshall.
i feel Socialite is balanced and pretty good, shutting down coven comms for one night is pretty good and having day chat during the night is just a kinda decent side effect ain’t great for NA but whatever they don’t need comms THAT much bc they’re usually a smaller faction
There's a theory going around that the devs are running on thin ice with their economy Which explains the need to rush updates and ranked out the window without considering how balanced the individual roles are. If that's the case, they need to open up another kickstarter.
Marshal balance: If a Town Power role (except the Marshal themself) is lynched during a tribunal the Marshal will be hung by the hangman. Tribunals can no longer extend the voting phase past 30 seconds (tribunals cause the voting phase to last 45 seconds which is waaay too long and allows town to not vote).
I find that the Coroner buff is good for the game. Medusas main purpose isnt even countered by it like how Amne counters Medusa. The Socialite points are extremely valid especially admirers who i think can still freely talk that night, but in addition to all of that, its another free instant confirm role that town has, bringing the total to 7 with Marshal. I agree with Marshals issues. I think prosecutors buff just gives town too many day kills.
I feel like a good change to socialite (if it ends up over powered) is to make everyone in the party anonymous (pretty much a masquerade party) making it so town can still strategize but not as easily confirm themselves and allowing evils to steal another claim by pretending they’re someone else during the party and what not
I don’t know I feel like I’ve given up now and I’m fine that they’re trying to appeal to a casual audience. I would love for the tribunal to stop with the dead of the Marshal and that’s all I can think of. Socialite I don’t know add a you can’t party 2 nights in a row cooldown ? Make it unique ? There’s no way of going about it without reworking their ability in some way.
Yea, the new roles needs balancing. Marshall as you said has too much gamethrow potential. Socialite? Well, it outs the jailer easily enough and cripples coven against an already pretty powerful town. My suggestion on Marshall is to force Marshall to wait a few more nights until they use their ability. At least in that case people can vote with more information. Socialite's fix could be: When they throw a party it invites say 5 random people but never anyone that is pirated. At least in this way any evils not in the party can still coordinate and it doesn't out the jailor/ screw over pirate. I am sure my ideas has it's own issues but I am just mentioning the first thing that came to mind.
Pros has the advantage of being able to kill any evil, at the cost of suffering from jesters and exe targets. I think that while I'd like more to make them different. They are unique to each other!
I've always said Deputy shouldve been TPow. It doesnt kill anyone, no one can be protected from it, it happens during the day, it reveals their role. It has always been just a Pros but with only one shot. I think it should have basic attack, but two shots. Because revealing a NK to be voted off is literally the whole point of the NK role. You *aren't* supposed to be kill NKs without sacrificing something else A NK shouldnt be removed with a single button that doesn't have counterplay or any downsides (put pros back to what it was before, but let it choose Inno or Guilty because that makes way more sense)
With the Buffs to Pros, Deputy has no reason to exist imo. They do nothing that the Pros cannot do better ( with the single exception of the rare case of killing a jester) Either of them needs to be changed, but currently, deputy is (while still strong) just a very bad role, just because pros exist.
At the very least prosecutor shouldn't be able to use his ability twice in a day. That just makes him stronger than marshal lol. Or if he can lynch twice give him some kind of nerf like if he lynchs a townie he gets hung like a dying vigi would.
Other than the changes to seer, illu and coroner, I really dislike this update. I dont like the buff to pros, and I dont like the new roles. I liked dep being the only town with the ability to kill during the day (old pros doesnt count since it was basically the trial). Now we have the chance to kill 6 people in ONE day? This is crazy. The concept of socialite is kind of cool but I feel like evils as a whole didnt need a nerf. Sadly, I know these 2 roles are here to stay. The pros buff is also here to stay it seems since from what I've seen I'm in the minority with my take.
Well pros and dep feels the same now but pros can use its ability twice in 1 day and a hang so its like a marshal if u can get the first evil on the first hang so they seem a bit different but has similarities
On that note, the only other thing that a dep doe differently than a pros is deps are safer against jests and exes. I don't know how big of a difference this is but it is another difference to take note of.
Yeah, honestly I think that to be adding more TPOW roles in general, vanilla really needs to have some of the changes from modded. I think the most impactful one isn’t even a role at all, but an alignment - Common Town.
Common Town is an alternative to Random Town which any townie can spawn in except Town Power roles. When making lists, this allows you to drastically limit how many tpows can actually spawn, which considering we now have five is very important imo
While watching this video I had the exact same thought only to find a comment who already said it
I also didnt even know modded had this allignment
This just sounds like my role and alignment max limit idea with a few extra steps. Instead of just banning roles you should be able to ban or limit them to a certain max amount and same goes for alignments
I second this. I'd personally just add a hard limit to the number of TPows that can roll in a game. The game gets extremely frustrating as Coven when too many TPows roll into the game to the point that people can just out you solely by claiming.
@@alicel4695 Yeah this is also messing up All Any pretty badly. While Common Town would be nice it's definitely not a comprehensive solution if TPows are going to be this strong.
@@mysticmismagius6298 All Any is meant to be balanced, you can have 3 CPOW and a rit
I've been doing the "finding jailor through socialite" as both coven and town. If Rit is in the game... yeah.
Ritualist? Hardly knew er before failing a N1 guess
Judge needs to exist if Marshall does.
Absolutely. judge was the one major check to marshal in better tos, this needs to be here to balance marshall
@@Penrosian honestly, should be a Coven role. Neutral roles don't typically work with coven anymore, so Judge should be part of Coven, being guaranteed to spawn if a Marshall is in the game
They could shift pros to be like judge since they fit thematically and also is kinda redundant
@@scrazad1601 combine pros and deputy into one tpow and make Pros an evil role?
People in the replies-
Judge does absolutely nothing to balance Marshal. A hard counter that may or may not spawn is not 'balance'. It doesn't change the fact that Marshal is still the strongest TPow that simply has a hard counter that isn't guaranteed to exist. Throwing hard counters on top of each other isn't balanced, and even if Judge and Conjurer countered Marshal it doesn't prevent Marshal from being way stronger than other TPows regardless.
Make the party anonymous, so evils can still chat with each other, just in the presence of the rest of the town. Then there’s some mind games involved, and gives neutrals the chance to hand out info they might not be able to otherwise. Same for coven.
This also makes it risky for townies to change their decisions at night, since nothing can be truly trusted, but still hurts the evils some while letting more information get passed around, even if it’s sketchy.
Could even change it to a masquerade instead of a party. This is a solid idea
How about Coven can group whisper during parties (send a message to all of them at once) during the party without notifying the rest of the town.
@@Minister_for_Grass at that point its just a way for town to talk at night, since coven would have there own chat, but now has the added bonus of knowing what certain townies would do, i personally like what they did with it
The way I'd have executed a "let town speak at night" role is more of a mail courier. Pick two people during day, they can chat at night, and you can't see it- You'd have to pick yourself to do that, and you don't get to do that. If someone you picked is Coven or Apoc, they don't get evil chat. This applies even if you pick two players of the same evil faction. So if you know two people are Coven but can't prove it, you can isolate them from the rest of the coven, or just one of them so they can't coordinate with the other either.
Honestly I really like this idea of all the ones I've seen so far, I think it'd be a lot of fun! Reminds me of Medium's séance ability in a way too, though you aren't communicating from beyond the grave. Even letting it be yourself and one other person would be okay with me, if it's limited charges (like maybe only twice).
whispers exist
this is pointless unless you're particularly scared of a wildling
@@GodEmperorKen whispers are visible during day chat.
mystic from throne of lies is really similar to this, the main issue from this role from that game is that it resulted in a too easily confirmed mystic townie
but it was way less of a problem in throne of lies bc of how throne of lies had fundamentally different game mechanics that made this okay
Prosecutor? Is that some new role? I only know of 2 roles: Deputy and 2 Deputies in a trenchcoat...
Pros is 2 deputies in a trenchcoat that bypass defense
@@cyanideytcuriousseadoggobut cause jest and exe
Coroner change was necessary: Stone shutting down an entire role as a side effect was just unfun to the point where the entire community hated playing Coroner.
The fact that Medusa is otherwise a mediocre and slightly redundant role is a separate, but decidedly lower priority problem that can safely be fixed sometime way later in the queue of things that need to be fixed.
Agreed it shutting down ret is fine but shutting out a ti is a bit far. it makes coro alot better and now honestly one of the better Tis in the game
How is medusa redundant? It makes counting roles way harder in TT or Ranked, and it's easier for coven to steal those roles
@@vitinho2002Not really, in TT Town should know that stoned roles are almost always Town and not Coven unless something weird with witch or something happened, and stoning anyone after Night 2 is almost always useless in Ranked because by Day 3 everyone should have claimed if Town isn't passive. Also if Town is on pacing to win a coven should be dead by Night 4 the absolute latest before they lose Maj
I mean, Medusa still removes the will of stoned players, so it's not entirely useless. Being able to deny people information can be useful. The hard part is Coven needing to know how to leverage the denied info.
@@Haeters I mean, we know the stoned people are townies but that doesn't change the fact that there's 2 TIs, 1 TK, 1 TP, 2 TPOW, 1 TS and 3 RT per game, and knowing dead people's roles could confirm people and realise there are more TIs (for example) than it should. Or if there are no stoned people and there's only 1 TK claim then you can confirm them (as not a main cov, could still be tt), but you couldn't if there was a stoned player.
Prosecutor is now just a better deputy exept for the fact that it has to wait for voting phase.
The only thing deputy can do that pros can’t is kill a jester without dying
@@Beast-yp2eidep can attack evils before they manage to fast vote him, pros can't do the same.
Also, Pros is a unique Tpow while Dep is a not so unique tk
I think beating fast votes is better for clutch situations than being able to kill Horsemen. 2 charges vs the better ability.
I don't know why people are hung up on the fact that Dep can kill fast voters, it doesn't even matter except in a specific circumstance.
Deputy can kill 1 person. This means in order to tip the voting scale of the game during voting phase the evils and the town need to be of equal numbers. This means no fast voting will occur since fast votes would only end in a tie(assuming everyone plays optimally, you can't account for stupid).
There is an exception to this rule in the case of an evil being knighted since that might create a fast vote situation with unequal numbers, thereby making this useful. But this situation isn't common enough to the point where I would prefer only a single use daykill instead of double use.
Oh yeah, I've used Socialite against the Jailor several times.
It's THE Anti-Jailor role.
It's actually smarter as a townie to NOT speak unless you got something important to say if you got a Jailor because you will out them if everyone speaks.
I am pretty sure Dev's didn't think of it that way or had the intention to have the role work the way it does, but yeah, Jailor is in trouble cause of Socialite.
[Sometime's it's smarter to not even Jail N2 solely because of that.]
I think Marshall is balanced when the sole tpow, when combined with other tpows it quickly becomes unfair
Yes i had a game where i coordinated with mayor as marshal and we took out the entire neutral apocalypse
Modifier: 1 or 2 TPows per game. This could be used for Ranked lists.
I like that they added Marshal as it has some testing from better ToS, but the lack of the Judge hardcounter and the interaction with Pros makes it quite oppressive. I'm not sure how to change it to make it work better for ToS2 though because all of the reworks I've seen haven't solved the main problem with non-modded Marshal - its confirmability
Socialite is really unhealthy for the game and I wish it wasn't because the art for it is amazing aaaaa
The concept of a "allow players to chat at night" role isn't awful but the execution is terrible. I've seen suggestions to rework it to ToL Mystic and that might be the best we can get
I’m not familiar, what does the Oracle do?
@@michaele8444 misremembered the role name - it’s actually mystic
Mystic allows two players to speak at night. The mystic can listen in on these people speaking. Alternatively the mystic can talk to someone themself if they feel like it
It’s not great but it’s better than current socialite
Whats Tol
@@Brokendog-wt4ul Throne of Lies
I felt like an appropriate buff to illusionist would be to allow them to visit non-coven and show them an illusion, in effect acting like the hypnotist in TOS 1. They would still keep the ability to illusion coven as no-blood/not sus/not trigger defences
I think an interesting way to balance socialite would be to make night chat anonymous. Coven still won't be able to communicate well, but they could also establish a secret code of sorts the night before to still talk and coordinate. Town could also fake being coven to trick the coven members, or vice versa, which I think would be very interesting gameplay.
A further point on the prosecutor buff: Isn't Marshal just worse Prosecutor? Pros gets to choose two people to instakill all on their own and then oh no, they only get one vote instead of two for their third kill, and they can also back out of the decision to kill the third person, and they also see the roles come out between kills, and they can choose to space out the kills if they wish. Meanwhile Marshal is at the mercy of the town for all three votes (so if it's coven majority the marshal just dies) and doesn't get the extra vote after the tribunal, so is in the same position as pros afterward.
The thing is that Pros has to do their roles separated over multiple days, which in a 4v4 or such (which happens very often so is relevant), means you can kill them before they get the other proses off. Marshall can do it all in one day, and that one day can make all the difference.
@@BoltTheEmolga they can pros multiple times per day since it doesn't consume the trial anymore
@@BoltTheEmolga in the recent pipetron video i saw prosecutor prosecute two people in one day, and then a third got hanged the same day. so no, that's not true
Yeah it deffo feels like pros is an upgraded dep and upgraded mon
@@dusaprukiyathan1613 …okay never mind ignore me lol
Main/only benefit then is that if you misfire you don’t immediately die on the spot
So about Socialite
You're concerns are DEFINITELY valid
Since Socialite is a Town SUPPORT role, there can be 1 or more Socialites in the game and if 1 socialite hosts a party with 2 or more socialites in play; the socialites can reveal themselves, coordinate use charges and coven or NA will never be able to use Night Chat ever.
I was able to experience this since I got a very stacked town game where Town keeps getting confirmed because of the double socialite gameplay and TI being active all around with massive coordination
Not so sure about Pros and Dep, and Marshal since I wish I can rigorously play more of them
1:07 The other main difference is the prosecutor has to wait for the voting phase to prosecute and risks getting fast-voted in a evil maj situation, where as deputy you can shoot the moment the day starts.
They have learn the day where Spy can read Maf chat... right?
I think pros should be a high risk high reward deputy. Maybe it only doesn’t take up a trial if the pros gets it right. So if they mislynch, towns down 2 townies and a trial.
I think Marshal would be fine if Judge got added in too, but as is it’s a bit too dominant. Also, iirc in the modded version of Marshal, it and Mayor were mutually exclusive, they couldn’t appear in the same game. That would be a significant help.
as someone who never watched modded games, what does judge do?
Know marshall, make votes annoymus to begin with, you do same for the chat
@@Underworlder5 Judge has ToS1 win condition - survive to see Town lose.
Judge has a day ability to call court: chat and voting become completely anonymous. Everyone but the Judge is called by Jury, while the Judge is called by, well, Judge, so he can direct evils to target certain people. Judge also gets 3 votes for the day, to help get their targets lynched.
This court calling *can* be called during a Marshal Tribunal, meaning a Judge and evils get to take over and lynch 3 townies.
That’s the easiest way to put it - here’s a decent video of it in action. ruclips.net/video/u1Wi1ZHZ4sY/видео.html
@@Underworlder5 You know Town of Salem 1 Witch? Their desire is just to have town lose?
It's like that, but with the powers of the Mayor.
Judge brings (something something) to court. And everyone becomes the Jury. Judge has 3 votes, and it removes everyone from knowing who is voting by design even when the rules were set to have people know. So it can hijack Marshal since the evils can vote without fear of giving themselves away, and they have essentially a corrupt Mayor on their side too.
I think its only for one day though
@@Underworlder5 Judge can call court once per game which makes chat and voting anonymous for that day, aswell as giving the Judge 3 votes whilst court was active. It essentially could hijack a Marshal group lynch and kill 3 town if used correctly, which is why it was so good at countering Marshal.
A quick correction I want to make: Marshall is not bettertos original, it comes from a mod for (of all things) Starcraft 2, which I think was the inspiration for ToS1 a long time ago. Marshall is pretty much the same from SC2 with one difference: in the original, unless intentionally making a role list with both, Mayor and Marshall are exclusive. Marshall is generally considered balanced in that situation, especially since there is no other "insta-confirmed town roles" other than those two, of which you get one. Now pardon while I rant about Socialite for a moment...
I think you can make an argument night coordination is in fact quite powerful; most Social Deduction games have mechanics in play specifically to make it very tricky to coordinate and communicate among fellow evils. I remember playing Mafia IRL, and the Mafia never got to speak to each other in private. Everyone had their eyes closed but obviously could still hear. The Mafia had to silently point, make nods, and otherwise communicate non-verbally and quietly. Removing Spy as a "anti-night chat" was always a bad balance move to me, but I saw why it was healthy to the game itself: New players don't know what a "Spy" is and will assume that night chat is safe, and accidently reveal all of the mafia to the town. Its hard to even blame the new players for this.
Original ToS1 Spy I always found bafflingly overpowered when compared to the SC2 original. The original Spy from SC2 could read whispers but that ability was removed in 2013 because it made Spy instantly confirmed, and on default settings Spy only got to see who the evil teams attacked each night instead of who was visited by any evil teammate. Their ability to read night chat was also limited, if I recall correctly, in that you got to see messages but not which player or even which team sent them. Considering SC2 had up to 3 evil night chats and 1 town night chat, it made it hard to tell if "check 7" was an order to convert them (think vampires), an order to reveal them (think PM), an order to try adding them to the town team (no real ToS version), or just an evil faction messing with a possible Spy.
Without Spy (or any role) being able to read whispers, it means that all evils have two options to coordinate. Night chat, which MAY be at risk of being listened via Spy. Or whispers, which MAY cause town to grow suspicious but is guranteed secure. Also, Spy being able to listen could be used to one's advantage. Spies will usually announce their information, instantly confirming real spies to the evil teams, but an evil can also fake spy by intentionally sending specific messages and then claiming to be a Spy that read those messages, so Spy claims are never truly trustworthy. In addition, with a town team that talks at night, evils can pretend to be that town team, throwing further confusion.
This is all very fun nuance WHICH DOES NOT EXIST WITH SOCIALITE.
Socialite does not make night chat risky and require careful wording. It, without warning, deletes BOTH of your options to coordinate for a night. If you knew a party was coming, you would whisper your teammates your plans during the day (if Wildling was confirmed to not be in play or on your team). You don't know in advance, and you also can't whisper at night, so suddenly you have ZERO ability to coordinate for the night. There is no nuance; unless you are coven coordinating in whispers is too risky, while at night you have no option at all with Socialite.
It's extremely toxic game design, and I feel like is trying to solve a problem (that being how easy it is for evils to win if they coordinate in night chat unrestricted) that had a better solution years ago. If they wanted to nerf night time coordination, they should give back Spy's ability to read evil chats and rework Socialite.
Pirate deals an Unstoppable attack, Crus can't save you. BG could, maybe, But I'm not sure if Pirate's attack counts as a direct one
If the pirate won 0 duels, he dies if he wins or loses, if he's at 1 win, if he wins the duel he survives. The pirate dueling someonee counts as a direct visit.
The problem is that the Pirate, if they haven't guaranteed a win that night, dies to a Crus regardless, at least to me. A no win Pirate in a Crus game is a sitting duck. I would probably make it so that a Pirated Role (since it's a day job ability, yes?) can't speak at night. It'd prevent someone from just calling out for TP, and would also (to a point) slow down the "Jailor is always quiet" part by having more people unable to talk at night. It wouldn't stop it, since Jailor would always be not talking, but it'd help a little.
@@EverfreeFire one idea i had was having pirate and pirated unable to attend the party, like you suggested, but also exclude admirer and the person they're proposing to, for gamemodes where Pirate is banned
My suggestion for socialite would be this. Coven and NA should be able to whisper anonymously with each other. In addition Jailor should be able to do the same, I.e when they whisper it goes to the jail chat but they can talk in the party. That or just make the socialite unique with one charge.
My suggestion is making socialite an every day ability, where they create a party of up to 3 people (and the socialite)
There's several changes here I don't really enjoy. To me it appears that the thing that got strengthened the most here was the potential for game-throwing.
Marshal is a complete hit-or-miss role. It is guaranteed to speed up the game but can be very frustrating, because of how swingy it is. I think that the role should ramp up slowly. Then you're forced to consider more when it is best to unleash your ability.
Socialite is a powerful role, but still hard to gauge exactly how much impact it will have. I'd prefer it if players would be given a choice on attendance at the beginning of the night. And we need roles that counter socialite. Let poisoner randomly poison several attendees if they still have their charge. Let werewolf rampage the party at the cost of revealing. Let pestilence spread their disease (double the number of infected attending).
Prosecutor needed the buff, but I think it was approached badly. I like that they can now prosecute up to twice in a day, but dislike that it still allows for a regular lynch.
Deputy could be rolled into Vigilante at this point.
Illusionist/Seer are good changes.
Ngl the Socialite's party ability should be a single time ability, not 2. And if it isn't already, it should be an unique role... I don't play ToS 2 so idk about it that much but ya, the new roles seem too powerful for now.
Edit: idk much about socialite so sry if I get something wrong
Nah you right, we had 3 socialites in 1 game, coven wasn't able to use their chat because every night was party night
i think jailor should have a second chat when socialite party along with jail chat
I think Marshal is the most fun role ever made in mods and the entire game as a whole, but I 100% agree that ESPECIALLY without Judge it's way too powerful, not to mention Modded TOS1 was usually played with good players who would throw was less with it. With it being in vanilla TOS2 things could get bad fast. That's not even the role's fault it's just not built for the TOS2 meta.
I played Modded ToS1 and yeah... Marshal is busted without Judge acting as a counter, since Judge can fakeclaim Marshal, force the REAL Marshal to reveal themselves, and then just screw over Town, but only if all the players in the lobby are good...
The first difference between shooting a target and hanging a target that comes to mind is shooting bypassing Jester shenanigans and Exe Pushes; both which would punish the Prosecutor one-sidedly. i.e. The deputiy gets immunity from retaliation for shooting the clown-classes, but is less versatile in them not being able to kill horsemen amd less powerful due to only having a single bullet.
A change I've seen recommended for socialite is to make it so you can't party two nights in a row, giving it a global cooldown which allows evils to have a night of freedom after a party. I'm not sure how balanced it is but it does sound a bit better to me than the current situation, where multiple socialites can completely shut down night chat
I think if the evils could speak in the night chat sociate could be more balanced.
Yes and no. If they were given that ability, I'm sure town would just start saying to lynch the people who didn't talk during night, unless if evils were somehow able to swap between chats.
Make it so evils could whisper anonymously ?
Maybe have it be a masquerade party and have nobody know who is speaking?
@@yourboi5492 I second this. Bc socialite rn can be used to out the Jailor and Jailee too.
For marshal, there is a lot that needs to happen for it to be balanced. Maybe if they add a condition for games that role a marshal, no other tpow can be rolled for that game. If they don't do that much, it's only monarch that can coexist with marshal. Idk.
For socialite, keep town chat separate from evil chat so that evils can still coordinate and for town, make it so that every townie is completely anonymous with no numbers and same name tag of "unknown" or "town member". This way town still has to figure out who is evil and who isn't while getting a little more time to coordinate
These are just some ideas to bounce around
Yes
It needs to be anonymous
separating town chat and evil chat would just confirm towns extremely easily. even making them anonymous would help little, since they can just say who they are. after all, if only real townies can speak up and listen, then there is no reason to lie about who you are
@@Underworlder5 yes if your evil
@@Underworlder5 maybe throw in nes like exe, doom, and jest into town chat to make you think twice about open claiming early on or to throw in a little chaos to keep town on thier feet while still keeping coven, na, and nks separate and to be able to maintain their ability to coordinate.
Honestly, one thing that could be done to balance the Socialite would be to have everyone appear as Anonymous. Evils can still coordinate, but town will know.
Like, for example:
Conjurer: Coven member down of me, target this player I'm choosing.
This would give a little info to town, but this could be orchestrated in night one, so if they say "down", they mean up, especially if the player who says it is 10, but no coven is below them.
I agree so much with everything in this video. Genuinely believe that the new roles added aren't healty for the game's balance :(
Hey, there is one more difference between Deputy and Prosecutor: 🎉 JESTER!!! 🎉
Marshal in all any feels terrible unless you have a plan, and can scum read/ pick out the evils early (2/3's are nice, 1/3 just speeds up the game.)
in ranked, with smart players, it's too strong too fast.
I think socialite should maybe instead of shutting down night chat, should extend the day or only townies can talk during the party but are restricted on what can be said, or it's optional if you want to go to the party or not instead
Only townies in socialite chat is devastating, so imagine that thing in ranked
@@speedup2784
Yeah I was prolly on something when I said that
But it should be optional to go to, but going to it means you can't use a night ability
About BetterToS... it's nice. It's more variety to those who like it, but Marshall is something I believe should be kept at where he originates.
DAY KILLING roles were the most mind hitting thing when I moved from ToS to ToS2. Mind you, I played first game ever since it was free, had no silver coins and interface was extremely simple and not so colorful like today's Tos
The only way Town could kill someone during they day was Trial, easily and possibly able to backfire by trickery of evildoers
Another ways to have an ability to leverage by day killing made a huge change in my head - it's now much more dangerous to attempt the "vote hijack" as evildoers when you know there might be a Day killer, removing your advantage
And if we talk about both Deputy and Prosecutor being present, even before this change, I considered them both strong in their own ways, making them both different in approach
Since Deputy's shot didn't count as Vote Execution, it was a reliable way to remove potential evildoers and also persist with another way for Town to kill, while Prosecutor, albeit having two charges (meaning two potential kills), uses the potential Town Killing vote stage, making him more uses in future, but overall not affecting amount of kills Town can do during days if only one of Day Killers are present
I don't take into consideration APOCALYPSE roles, honestly. In more usual gamemodes the fact that Trial is Ultimate death (nothing protects from it) never comes in fact - nobody but Apocalypse have immunity to being shot by Deputy, making them equal in their "power" to kill
Now the differences between Pros and Deputy are their alignment only, with Prosecutor actually being more useful with him having second charge, being unique Town Power, etc.
In my opinion, they both can stay, but recent change really made them look similar instead of differing them
An argument against the potential meta gaming behind the Socialite role is the possibility that Coven can establish a (In case of socialite break this) code. While not as simple as being able to coordinate between town, it's still a possibility and dare I say it might already be happening. This is something I never wanted to implement in my own games because it feels wrong but its something I fear will come into light at some point
Those where some verry good points.
The issue right now is not that town is weak,
There are simply TOO MANY TROLLS AND REGHUNTERS WHO THROW GAMES FOR NOTHING
1:03 Another difference is that Prosecutor is extremely vulnerable to what I like to call Predator Killers - killing roles that prey on the actions of other players. More specifically, Jester and Executioner. Prosecutor also cannot use their ability until the Voting Phase, and has to click like 3 buttons to use it. This makes them vulnerable to a fast-vote in Evil Majority.
Aside from this, I do think having them as separate roles is a good idea, though I think Deputy should receive a few changes to make it a bit more... well, different. Not sure how I'd change them though. Perhaps removing their insta-confirm could be a good way to go about it, and making them have Blood the following night.
3:19 Okay, here's an idea for a nerf - players can Whisper during social gatherings, and the other players won't be told people are whispering. This way, Evils can still coordinate, but not with their whole faction at the same time.
22/04/2024 Edit: Okay, rolelist RNG. Y'know what might potentially fix that? Let's bring over a role from Blood on the Clocktower.
*Pit-Hag*
Alignment: Coven Utility
Ability: Each night, choose a player and a role: If the role is not in-play, the player becomes that role (keeping their original alignment). You do not learn if your transformation failed.
That Town Power claim? Whoops, they're a Coroner now. The guy claiming Monarch saying they'll reveal themself tonight? Yeah, no, I disagree, you're a Vigilante. Is the Jinx making a bold play and claiming Town Power? They've told you in night chat that they're already satisfied with their kills, so how about a Coven-sided Prosecutor? The Pit-Hag would open up a lot of ways for Coven to neutralize more powerful roles (particularly insta-confirm roles) without needing to kill them. It can throw a lot of shade on your Mayor claim if you can't hit the insta-confirm button, and it gives Evil players the option to claim Town Power, and later claim to have been Pit-Hagged into a weaker role.
Socialite:
Make unique and cooldown between entertainment
Marshal:
Add judge
Add Transporter back, but with changes that make the role less confusing
- if you visit a transported target you know who they were transported with and get their results
- a spy’s bug reveals who was transported
- Transporter is a town power
- a coven power counterpart to transporter, the only difference being obviously they’re suspicious
i have a theory about Dreamweaver meta
Coven will claim dreamwoven so they can confirm themselves as townies (since dreamweaver can only dreamweave town)
Dreamweaver needs to dreamweave at least one or maybe 2 players to confirm it's a dreamweaver game
CHAT TABS ARE A NECESSITY! Night party chat, Night jail chat for jailor. Coven get night party chat, night coven chat. Simple and easy.
I currently have 150 hours in ToS2 and I love the game. I haven't had a negative experience with Socialite but I completely agree with your points on it, honestly they should be unique and have only 1 use imo.
But my last 4 AA games where I was a town (and even claimed) got killed by a day 2 Marshall because they wanna troll and they even opening admit doing so.
Honestly after that, it really killed my enjoyment of the game and I haven't been interested in playing it since. It sucks because I like the game
To answer your question about Dep vs Pros:
Prosecutor is Unique, Deputy is not.
Prosecutor gets two charges, Deputy gets one.
Prosecutor can kill evolved horsemen, Deputy cannot.
So Pros is a much stronger Dep basically.
Is there a point of having both? No idea. But I am very happy they buffed the Pros cause it used to be a joke.
Nobody is talking about the background music being the town of salem rap??! I love it!
"RIP Medusa"
Coroner can bypass most coven tricks, it was always weird that Medusa was the exception. This is just a consistency change more so than a Medusa nerf.
personally, i am glad coroner gets buffs. for a long time it was pretty much just invest but worse, and no one wanted to be a coroner. now it has a useful niche in being one of only two infallible town roles (alongside spy)
Also there is a difference between judge and dep that is fairly significant, albeit mostly technical differences.
Dep is TK, cant kill every role, and only gets 1 use.
Pros is TPow, can kill every role, gets 2 uses, but also triggers jester and exe.
The differences are significant even if they dont feel significant, and functionally play the same way from the players perspective who rolls it.
Socialite shadownerfing pirate is something I hadn't considered, but highly appreciate. I do wonder if voodoo should get a buff (silencing silences you the following day AND night, so no talking to jailord, no talking to apocs, no talking during parties) and admirer should get a nerf: You don't get to know your lover's role until night ends.
I emphatically agree with most things mentioned, along with the overall sentiment that both roles are dubious additions to the game. But I think there's some very strong built-in counterplay to two of the Socialite metas you mentioned:
Veterans can stay silent during a party and alert, which provides a strong counter to jailor hunting that way. Maybe not enough to stop coven from employing that technique, but at least neutering its effectiveness enough that silent parties don't become meta.
Goading a vigilante into taking a bad shot is such a powerful swing for evils that I expect your admirer play to be done by fake admirers in some similar proportion. I think vigis being put on the spot with whether to trust a whisper from an admirer claim is a compelling moment of tension that will be good for the game.
If you play town traitor, Marshall living to traitor hunt makes it so much harder for coven to win. It gives 5 gangs instead of 3 in traitor hunt
Regarding Prosecutor, I think it'd be neat if the town still got to vote guilty/inno on Prosecutor trials, with the Prosecutor not being able to vote. Even if most of the time, the right thing to strategy for the town is to all guilty (since the trial doesn't end the day anyway), but it would add some counterplay and make the Prosecutor not able to win 1v1s.
There should be a limit so only one fully confirmed (like mayor/deputy/prosecutor) can spawn
I do like how Coroner can tell who has book the night of the party as well
I think having more town power is good as long as they can’t dominate an game, I feel like the difference between Marshal and Mayor/Prosecutor is that those 2 roles are benefit from revealing during a mid area of the game, while marshal benefits from the beginning and near the end, both times where it should be the least clear on what to do, meaning that it is easier for Marshal to wipe out multiple evils, while Mayor and prosecutor have to be careful when they use their ability out of fear of wasting it or making a clear mistake
Deputy still existing now that Prosecutor is just better in every way is probably something that SHOULD be changed, but is understandable for now since Prosecutor is a unique TPow and Deputy is a non-unique TK. At any rate, Prosecutor needed SOMETHING, since Deputy or Mayor outpaced old Prosecutor in any potential situation, so reverting this change would mean having to give Prosecutor something else in order to keep it from being too weak.
Marshal is wildly unbalanced, yes. It'd be better if Judge was added too in order to balance it out, but Judge using the Witchcon would be tough for BMG to implement without fundamentally changing how they organize Neutrals. Clearly the correct answer is to just steal ALL of BToS2 so they can use the NP subcategory (Joking... unless?)
I think Socialite is okay, in concept, but needs some changes. First, it should be made unique. I know BMG wanted to reduce the unique roles to only TPow to allow more fake claims, but as it stands, 2 or 3 Socialites randomly appearing has the potential to shut evil night chats down for THE ENTIRE GAME. Secondly, the ability should be 1 charge instead of 2. That way the Socialite needs think like a Deputy and choose between using the party early to confirm themself, or remaining unconfirmed and potentially dying so you have a chance to use it at a crucial moment later.
The issue with Marshal existing without its modded counters is a lot like why I think AA needs a ranked mode. Potential for a role (and its signature mechanic) to exist opens up so many more options for fake claims, countering enemy factions, and defending against being caught.
Also, if Transporter comes back, it opens up the option of Enchanter forging kills as coven. Too many ToS1 plays can't be done because ToS2 lacks the mechanics.
I’m just annoyed they haven’t removed or changed trickster yet…
i like the idea of socialite but it needs some tweeks for sure. Only 1 use, maybe it selects a number of random Alive Players instead of all players minus jailor/jailee, maybe whispers could still be used. just a few ideas.
I actually like deputy and prosecutor both existing, but it could need some tweaking
I mostly think it would be fun to have both roles
(Pleasd now i don't really understand how the buffs work so this could not even be possible, a good idea, or even balanced)
Prosecutor doesn't use a trial so you could use deputy's role right after the prosecution as well. This is especially useful in my opinion if you are confident that someone is evil and town isn't voting them you can just shoot the evil person before town can shoot themselves in the foot (of course if you don't do it yourself)
Besides it isn't likely that you will have pros and deputy in every game and different strategies will be needed!
Plus they could tweak deputy to no longer reveal and give an extra shot to them. It would still be a hard role to fake, give them more power, and protect them from basically being instantly killed afterwards or being a sitting duck. Plus it wouldn't be good to just reveal yourself after you shoot since you would be instantly killed for being a threat by coven
(Like i said i have no idea how meta is, i just think it would be fun)
Good points and is that a pfp of Ralsei? Dear god is that a *Dies to the Spell “GUN” being cast on me*
@@cyanideytcuriousseadoggo yes it is!
@@meg654 Lmao. Also making Marshal’s Tribunal stop if a townie gets hung during it but not prosecuted seems like a good step
I think a way to nerf socialite while keeping the main mechanic is to just make the chat anonymous, so town can still coordinate and evils still have a weaker but existing way to make choices
Marshal is "Oh, you wanted to hang three townies today? I can do that." It's a role that's more powerful if it never uses the ability.
Socialist is kinda.. meh/ Which probably means it's balanced. But we have enough TSs who can self-confirm.
Functionally, Pros was a worse Dep previously, although it could pros twice, but if they got a jester, they went 1f1, where as dep in the same situation would go 1f0. At least now, if that does happen, they can also smack another person they suspect is evil and you still also get to vote as well. A good pros in the right position now can certainly turn a losing situation into a winning situation more easily than a deputy, even if they do accidentally hit a jester.
Marshal in my opinion should be it's own alignment, Town (Chaos). Town Chaos are roles with game-altering effects (Like lets say, transporter from ToS1 changing whom is targeted by stuff) that can absolutely carry the town on their own if played right, but can give the game to evils if they get it wrong. (Lets be honest, we all know a game where the transporter transports the jailor and mayor into the mk/ck target.) Let us not forget that a lucky NA/Coven that town confirms as good might get to control the tribunal more than the Marshal. We also know that town tends to follow votes, so the first person to get 3-4 votes tends to get upped regardless if it's fast, so also a 3-4 coven game could absolutely fast vote people the marshal wasn't intending.
In summary, yes, Marshal is powerful, but it can be undermined, unlike Pros or Mayor.
I also def feel that Socialite should be 1. unique, and 2. only have 1 charge, 2 charges is frankly game breaking. On the flip side, i think having a role that can remove coven/na from coordinating for a night is a great way to tell coven / na newbies that 'Hey, you have this resource, use it when you can'. Sometimes you don't know how good something is until it's gone kind of thing.
Socialite also nerfs TP/LO claims a little, as not only does it show NA/Coven/SK/WW who is NOT protected (Because you'd expect your tp and LO claims to coordinate with free night chat). It also can cause evils claiming TP to be caught out when someone claims they have defense on a night they claimed they were protecting someone.
As it stands, pros is a better deputy. The only difference is jester or executioners, which counters pros but not deputy. And pros can kill horsemen roles, unlike deputy. Pros should be forced to use trials separately, so that they can't pros twice in one day.
Socialite, as some people pointed out, should allow evils to whisper [invisible, like tos1 lovers whisper] during the night. It would make it harder to coordinate, but not impossible.
Maybe jailor could speak in both socialite and jail chat, with a tab to swap between the two? Or it could be the risk of socialite using their ability to out jailor.
What if a pirate gain basic defense after successfully pirating someone? Still dies to sk, coven, shroud, crus, and vigis if they fail to pirate someone, but makes it easier to survive after winning the first match.
As someone who only watches ToS2. Prosecutor and Deputy are both fine to have even if they are the same role after all both are fun to watch the person playing them.
Edit: Marshall on the other hand sucks to watch the role has incredibly small use cases and gets rid of the usual talking to people and what not instead making town/mafia speed vote everything.
yeah, marshall really came out just instantly demolishing games, ending them fast for town or coven, most of the time coven due to how little control they have over their own claims, with seer and spy often being as strong as a single click to guess who's evil and who isn't, it just sucks sometimes honestly, illusionist's only ability is locked away because spy can instant confirm a coven member from their use even on N1, so even if you have 10 TI on you, one spy will remove the ability to provide any defense since spy is a tough claim and rarely faked unless its the PB or baker or something like that, basically a hard confirmed evil like half the time illusionist uses their ability, unless pb visits your coven and gives them a touch of death basically, you're left guessing more often than not
also dep and pros being different was kinda a good thing, pros being weak to jester and exe isn't exactly the top priority to give him 2 shots + all the benefits of dep and more, basically dep is just "slightly worse pros" now unless its clearing out a jester, which is safer for vigi or jailor to take out
socialite is 'fine' in the sense that, in a perfect world, they'd be able to invite specific people instead of just everyone, meaning they could select only town or only coven into their private chat through clicking each person's name and allowing some counterplay like a coven making a good claim in the socialite chat and then the next night telling the rest of the coven about the info, making socialite feel like there was like say 3 coven in their chat due to how coordinated things were against them
I think that while pros can kill twice as many people as the deputy, pros is a "trial", so you can get jestered / exed, but even so you can kill twice as much as dep if you aim well so he's just so much more powerful
Honestly I personally think Socialite is alright, all it takes to counter the jailor strategy is for some more townies to stay quiet. Maybe one nerf i'd add is socialite cannot party on 2 consecutive nights, as that could give town a massive advantage and lynch the evils before they can coordinate anything. Also would take better care of the jailor problem
Marshal on the other hand is stupidly OP and needs a massive nerf BADLY. Here are some I'd suggest:
- During a tribunal, you cannot see who is voting or speaking. This gives evils an opportunity to lynch a tpow without being detected. Making it risky in early game.
- Marshal gets hangman'd for war crimes if two or more townies are lynched.
- Marshal cannot be saved from Dreamwaved. Giving the marshal a tough choice - reveal and risk mislynching, or don't and have to wait till DW dies.
Also I think Prosecutor also needs a nerf. The rework allows pros to use all his prosecutes in 1 day which is broken. So simply, not allowing that.
Also if i may suggest:
- Deputy: If the target has any defense, they will not die. Add Guardian Angel as a role* so someone who survives this isn't too obvious evil. Deputy also gets 2 bullets, but gets revealed after the first.
- * Guardian Angel, a neutral role that automatically protects target from being shot/conj'd during the day. GA also has a special ability that can prevent their target from being hanged/pros'd, which they can use once, but using this will reveal them and undo that trial, so 1 trial left even if it was last trial. AS LONG AS THE GA IS ALIVE said target cannot be hanged that day. Meaning that GA will have to be shot/pros'd in case of a particularily dangerous target, or town will have to wait a day. GA wins with whatever faction their target is, if its a target that leaves town they will leave town too. One faction can have 1 GA max. GA cannot be ritted or doomed. GA cannot defend their target at night and dies if the whole faction of their target died, citing "they failed their duties and were reduced to ash" or something. unsure how tribunals would be handled though.
I know Marshal is the issue when they introduce it, it's just not fun getting screwed over as evil (or town if the Tpow is an idiot)
Not sure about the Jailor reveal issue, but I think an easy way to make Socialite not just block coven would be to allow coven to (silently) whisper eachother during the party. Letting town communicate at night is still really strong, and it would still hamper Coven's ability to communicate at night, but not disable it.
Maybe allow the Jailor to talk but not the person jailed?
I don't know how balanced it would be, but my gut feeling for how to fix socialite is for them to select like 2-3 people and then have a group chat there. If you manage to select a jailed target or jailor, it could say "one of your invitees was too busy to attend" and then you wouldn't have a party period. Additionally, you also wouldn't be able to select the same person twice in a row. This way it keeps jailor safer, doesn't necessarily completely remove coven's ability to plan, as only the invited coven member wouldn't be available for chat. If it gets to the point at the end of a game where you've already invited everyone alive to a party, there's not enough people to throw a party anyway so your ability would just fail.
Again, this is just my gut feeling, whether or not it would be a good change I have no idea
they seem to be to far in one direction and my mindset is like they seem to be pushing away new players as the more roles you add in the more u need to know it also allows for shorter games as both marshal & Socialite can find coven easy which in turn could put coven in a bad state in the game making it seem that the game is to overbalanced and “non-playable”. I just think they need strength poisoner to allow for: If the poisoner poisons the socialite a day before they use a party, the party does not happen. So we could have it more balance and the coven get to talk
For Marshal I feel like you just need one more coven role that can kill during the day bc you have dep,pros, & now marshal VS Conj. To me if u have all 3 VS a Dreamweaver,conj, wilding, witch Or whatever & u don’t kill at least one of those roles, their gos your entire team. So ADD another role for coven
Or I know in a mode Marshal & judge was hand & hand meaning only one will appear in a game this, would really help say with Marshal & Pros, Marshal & Socialite, Marshal & mayor etc. Also we need socialite to be a unique role too.
I have always thought that deputy and pros were essentially the same with one always being just a better/worse version of the other. At least this way it makes sense, considering town powers are supposed to be, well, powerful. The way it was before, deputy was more or less strictly better than pros, since pros basically didn't do anything (it was literally impossible for him to escape evil majority, or even a tie, unless it was a 1v1). Now pros is in almost every respect a better version of deputy, with the minor caveat of jester and exe. I agree with you that it really doesn't make sense for both of them to exist, considering how similar their roles are. Removing one would also mean less self-confirming roles, which I think would help a lot.
Another thing I think we’ll see is Doom win rates going up.
But also, we need to wait for the meta to settle for any concrete opinions. Everyone rushes to get their opinions out fast instead of getting their opinions well formed. Though I will say, Socialite is very confirmable by itself (though you can fake claim it fairly well, I’ve found) and might wanna be a TPow? Or maybe limit parties to 1? I don’t really know. It just feels like it has the confirmability of Monarch.
I think Deputy is used to kill less important evils like NEs or a coven member without the book so the prosecutor doesn't have to. It can also take out a conjurer before it kills while I think prosecutor is used to take out more powerful evils like horsemen. It can be both though.
i might be crazy but tbh i think that coexistence of pros and dep is fine. pros is a unique tpow and triggers on hanged effects while dep is a non-unique TK that can shoot jesters and exe targets and be a-OK
Deputy also isn't affected by Exe or Jest to my knowledge but again, these are very minor differences in my opinion. Right now it seems like the most important difference between the two roles is how many times they can use their abilities. This makes me think that the new Prosecutor will likely make the Deputy a redundant role as things currently are.
One way to remedy this is to slightly rework Deputy so they actually have a minor ability they can use after they shoot their shot.
If they limited Pros to only being able to pros once a day without ending the day, you get the deputy who can shoot much faster than a pros can pros and can safely take out a jester and stifle an executioner while also being able to confirm a horseman, and then you have pros who is weak to executioner/jester but is able to outright take out a horseman, and can go again the next day as long as they survive. I feel like that does actually make them different enough to warrant them being in the game together, especially since deputy is not a unique role and prosecutor is.
I have got idea how Marshal can be nerfed. Maybe tribunal can be counter of conj nukes them during the day and stop tribunal. Also once tribunal starts other tpow and dep cant use there abilities during tribunal
Like for example Marshal starts a tribunal and the mayor can't reveal them self during tribunal
mayor is the only role that can use their ability during a tribunal I'm pretty sure
Pros can use there ability during tribunal and dep can still shoot during tribunal
Pros and Marshal can get up to 5 hangs in a single day
Jailer: why not?
Socialite: because you KIDNAP people at night
That got me 😂
I feel like Pros and Deputy don't have enough distinction now and new Pros also dilutes Marhsall's role. Pros went from being the clearly inferior version to the vastly superior version. I think allowing the Pros to use their ability while someone (including them) is on the stand, lynching their target instead of the person who was voted up, and then ending the day as normal would have made it distinct from the Deputy, only slightly more powerful than it was (they still couldn't win a 2v1 because they'd just get killed the next night). If you REALLY wanted them to be a powerful 2v1 tpow machine, you could give them basic defense on the night following a Prosecution. There's too much activity in the Town-Led "Daytime Multi-Kill" space now between new Pros, Deputy, and Marshall.
i feel Socialite is balanced and pretty good, shutting down coven comms for one night is pretty good and having day chat during the night is just a kinda decent side effect
ain’t great for NA but whatever they don’t need comms THAT much bc they’re usually a smaller faction
but double soc is dumb and unbalanced, they either need to make socialite unique or limit it’s charges to 1
There's a theory going around that the devs are running on thin ice with their economy
Which explains the need to rush updates and ranked out the window without considering how balanced the individual roles are.
If that's the case, they need to open up another kickstarter.
A coven role that doesn’t allow people to day or night ability so like poi’s but the person can’t use day ability after not being able to use at night
Marshal balance:
If a Town Power role (except the Marshal themself) is lynched during a tribunal the Marshal will be hung by the hangman. Tribunals can no longer extend the voting phase past 30 seconds (tribunals cause the voting phase to last 45 seconds which is waaay too long and allows town to not vote).
Conjurer should be able to stop the tribunal
Edit: Imagine if Voodoo Master can also prevent the day ability of the silenced players
I find that the Coroner buff is good for the game. Medusas main purpose isnt even countered by it like how Amne counters Medusa.
The Socialite points are extremely valid especially admirers who i think can still freely talk that night, but in addition to all of that, its another free instant confirm role that town has, bringing the total to 7 with Marshal.
I agree with Marshals issues.
I think prosecutors buff just gives town too many day kills.
I feel like a good change to socialite (if it ends up over powered) is to make everyone in the party anonymous (pretty much a masquerade party) making it so town can still strategize but not as easily confirm themselves and allowing evils to steal another claim by pretending they’re someone else during the party and what not
This would work by making everyone’s name something like comedy mask, fox mask, feather mask etc, that is randomized per party
I don’t know I feel like I’ve given up now and I’m fine that they’re trying to appeal to a casual audience.
I would love for the tribunal to stop with the dead of the Marshal and that’s all I can think of.
Socialite I don’t know add a you can’t party 2 nights in a row cooldown ? Make it unique ?
There’s no way of going about it without reworking their ability in some way.
No way marshal isn't getting nerfed
Yea, the new roles needs balancing.
Marshall as you said has too much gamethrow potential. Socialite? Well, it outs the jailer easily enough and cripples coven against an already pretty powerful town.
My suggestion on Marshall is to force Marshall to wait a few more nights until they use their ability. At least in that case people can vote with more information.
Socialite's fix could be: When they throw a party it invites say 5 random people but never anyone that is pirated. At least in this way any evils not in the party can still coordinate and it doesn't out the jailor/ screw over pirate.
I am sure my ideas has it's own issues but I am just mentioning the first thing that came to mind.
Pros has the advantage of being able to kill any evil, at the cost of suffering from jesters and exe targets. I think that while I'd like more to make them different. They are unique to each other!
I've always said Deputy shouldve been TPow.
It doesnt kill anyone, no one can be protected from it, it happens during the day, it reveals their role.
It has always been just a Pros but with only one shot.
I think it should have basic attack, but two shots. Because revealing a NK to be voted off is literally the whole point of the NK role. You *aren't* supposed to be kill NKs without sacrificing something else
A NK shouldnt be removed with a single button that doesn't have counterplay or any downsides
(put pros back to what it was before, but let it choose Inno or Guilty because that makes way more sense)
First jailor game after update with socialite got killed n2 by shroud and coven.
Socialite working as intended.
With the Buffs to Pros, Deputy has no reason to exist imo.
They do nothing that the Pros cannot do better ( with the single exception of the rare case of killing a jester)
Either of them needs to be changed, but currently, deputy is (while still strong) just a very bad role, just because pros exist.
only jesters and executioners counter pros, by instant killing them.
Deputy can still kill these roles, but that's about it.
At the very least prosecutor shouldn't be able to use his ability twice in a day. That just makes him stronger than marshal lol. Or if he can lynch twice give him some kind of nerf like if he lynchs a townie he gets hung like a dying vigi would.
@@icycloud6823pros already dies for prosecuting a townie. Having only 1 prosecution per day with the change to not lose the trial seems good
@@cyanideytcuriousseadoggo Oh yeah I forgot huh. So yeah, at the very least give him only 1 prosecution a day.
Other than the changes to seer, illu and coroner, I really dislike this update. I dont like the buff to pros, and I dont like the new roles. I liked dep being the only town with the ability to kill during the day (old pros doesnt count since it was basically the trial). Now we have the chance to kill 6 people in ONE day? This is crazy. The concept of socialite is kind of cool but I feel like evils as a whole didnt need a nerf.
Sadly, I know these 2 roles are here to stay. The pros buff is also here to stay it seems since from what I've seen I'm in the minority with my take.
Well pros and dep feels the same now but pros can use its ability twice in 1 day and a hang so its like a marshal if u can get the first evil on the first hang so they seem a bit different but has similarities
I gotta agree with pipe's take on his video. That they're making town op to keep new players from losing and leaving the game
On that note, the only other thing that a dep doe differently than a pros is deps are safer against jests and exes. I don't know how big of a difference this is but it is another difference to take note of.