When dep came out it was “wow a town role that can kill during the day? What a fun and novel concept” and then there was pros… and then Marshal… and here we are
I'm gonna add on to her "hurting town" section. If your insta confirm kill power roles make the wrong choice, or are just straight up menaces and throw the game, the consequences aren't Just on their shoulders because you can lose so many townies just because they wanted to be funny. Marshal doesn't even face a penalty for hanging townies, at least Deputy and Pros have their own lives to worry about.
It's definitely a problem when a third of the players get confirmed by D2, and another third are dead by the end of N2. Then the rest of the game is just hanging the remaining third one by one until evil are gone.
I agree. In TOS we only had Mayor with an insta-confirm-button. If your faction coordinated then you could claim hard to claim roles like Jailor or Transporter. But now we have way to many Town-roles with insta-confirm-buttons and imo way to much killing power in all factions.
One way to balance this is to not have Mayor and Marshal not existing together. If Marshal exist, then Mayor shouldn't exist and vice versa. It's still possible for both to not exist in a game though.
@@unknowed5048 Marshal would still be too strong, no Judge - I feel like the role was balancing on being able to be Hijacked by evils with judge in modded. This isn't present on the main game
Pipetron has also been talking about the same issue in his streams. His suggestion was making all NKs win together (but not get night chat) because buffing evils with more killing power would just speed the game up even more. You also lose out on the secret spread of Vampires in ToS 2. In ToS 1, you could have vampires spreading and taking over the town without anyone even realising vamps are in the game. But in ToS 2, they only exist in a mode that basically no one plays. Vamps could be a powerful counter to the "can only use their ability once or twice" self confirming roles like dep, pros, socialite and marshall, because you don't know if they were converted later. Also Mayor (the only self-confirming role in ToS 1) was very vulnerable and restricted once they revealed. They couldn't whisper or be whispered to, they couldn't be protected by several TP roles. Whereas all of the other self-confirming roles in ToS 2 can be healed normally and whisper (with the main unblockable threats being conj, doom or rit)
I definitely agree with what you've said here. When I'm playing evil and get caught out as the least confirmed town in a game, I often joke "process of elimination too strong devs please nerf" but it's become less and less of a joke as time has gone on. Instant confirm yourself button can definitely be problematic, however I don't think they did it wrong every time. Mayor is in a fantastic place despite this, because of what it gives up and how much of a target it remains even after revealing. Roles like prosecutor, deputy, or Marshal have limited charges, and once those are exhausted evils have no real incentive to prioritize killing them. They also lose nothing but anonymity (if they don't kill town). Mayor, on the other hand, loses the ability to be protected by cleric and crusader, while remaining a constant threat for evils due to its voting power thus putting it in actual danger. If this level of balancing could be applied to more of the roles, I think it could help mitigate part of the issue with instant confirm buttons. That being said, this still wouldn't really address some of the problems you've brought up, but I think it's better than nothing. I also think that since Town is the only faction who's had their kill power buffed since release, it wouldn't take too much to put it back into a more manageable state. Revert prosecutor, nerf Marshal to 2 lynches, make deputy tpow, and I think that would be a pretty balanced state of affairs on the kill power front.
@@EmberGoWild I don't really see a need to limit the number of TPow per game when they're all unique already. At least in All Any, maybe it's different in other gamemodes.
What if a Deputy just doesn't get revealed instead? It would still work with the animation, just don't include the player's name and character in there. This would also allow evils to steal the Deputy claim, like they can do with Vigilante and Veteran. Think of the Hidden Killers modifier they added to Ranked for season 2, where you can now easily fake your kill as another kill-capable role.
This is an interesting perspective. To me, Town of Salem has always had power creep. I used to play forum mafia in games where almost the whole town is generic no-power citizens, and they have one or maybe two people who have what a ToS player would call "roles." Similarly, each scum faction (mafia, werewolves, etc.) would have their factional nightkill and maybe one member with a role beyond that. When Starcraft 2 Mafia (the precursor to Town of Salem, I think by the same developer), it had a citizen role, but people wouldn't usually use it because people with the citizen role would often quit the game as soon as they received the role. If they felt like they'd have more fun playing a different role, there was nothing stopping them from quitting and re-joining a new lobby for a chance at a different role. This led to most lobbies giving everyone a non-citizen, non-mafioso role (though for a while, competitive private lobbies among skilled players still ran with Citizens and Mafioso in the list). The metagame in public lobbies became about using role powers effectively, and scumhunting was more about finding people who are doing their role wrong (like a Doctor who's always conveniently on the wrong person) rather than about social tells. I think Town of Salem inherited that metagame from the start, and the power creep follows from there. Because the game is about the roles, every role has to be powerful, otherwise people are going to be disappointed if they get a weak role. Any new roles they add have to be powerful enough that someone would choose to play it (even if you don't actually get a choice beyond scrolls), and any roles that no one would choose need to be either brought to parity or removed. Power creep is a consequence of that.
Mayor should be the only press button to confirm yourself role. Alternatively, make a limit where only 2 confirm roles can spawn in a game. Meaning no games with 3 deputies, mayor, prosecutor and all evils just getting hanged.
ToS 2 made mayor work as an insta-confirm role by making it unable to be whispered, meaning that, while you have a confirmed town, they can't use that to turn the uninformed majority into an informed majority
I really do think a simple fix for the fact there are 5 insta conf tpow is just implementing a way to limit them. Socialite is one of the roles of all time Deputy is one of the roles of all time
Yeah, games where there's a Pros, a Marshal, 2 Deputies, a Socialite and a Mayor are just not fun. There should be a limit on how many TPows can be in a game total imo. I'm not well versed enough in game balance to give an exact solution but as it stands you could easily have all 5 Tpows in a single game iirc
Oh 100% - recently I have been obsessed with Blood on the Clocktower and it has really just turned my entire world upside down when it comes to TOS. If anyone here has played that game you will understand just how wildly different it is, and how the games are always full of confusion, several possibilities for how the game is playing out, the possibility for just about _everyone_ to be evil... If you haven't played it, it's truly a great game. The balance of it isn't even considering the other amazing unique mechanics it brings into play like the Storyteller (game host) and how some roles are built around interacting with them.
Blood on the Clocktower really just does everything right when it comes to social deduction. The social aspect of the game is inherently intact, mechanical deduction exists in the form of puzzles that you must unravel, but isn't to be relied upon entirely to solve any given game, lack of flips and talking after death gives evil options for success and keeps all players engaged... the list goes on.
The one game of BOTC where I actually clicked all of the pieces together and solved the game by Day 3 was immensely satisfying... and also infuriating because I had no actual proof of being right until the game ended and we saw the grimoire. It was certainly far more satisfying than "just kill everyone and hope for the best." ToS2 is only "fun" for me in a "I'll log in, goof around, and call it a night." When your social deduction game is best enjoyed after three beers... there's something wrong, and for me that's the only way I can "enjoy" ToS2 :D
To agree with someone else in the comments here, playing other social deduction games really flips town of Salem on its head. In tos2, town can easily confirm, kill, and protect against evils. It’s also really annoying when they waste their powers to kill town in a throw or d2 shot/pros. In Blood on the clock tower roles are almost impossible to confirm, even the role that is similar to dep ‘shoot during day, kill main bad guy’ ANYONE can claim it, and their shot won’t work cause they’re not real. But anyone can claim anything (if it’s in the role list) and it means everyone could be lying at the same time. It’s much more social deduction based on cues and lies, than just ‘haha funny pros and 6 dep shots and evil dies’ when the best evil can do is hide their members from a sheriff.
every heard of wolvesville?where they have a literal seer,a role that can BLOCK the damn wolf from voting,a double-check sheriff,a 2-shots deputy no penalty
Honestly the killing power Town has had has been a major blow to my enjoyment of TOS2 lately too ever since Marshal's introduction. I've seen games where Town would have Marshal, Prosecutor, and then like, two Amnesiacs waiting on the sidelines, and then the game just ends day 3 because the towns with killing power all pressed the shiny kill a player button on their screen LOL. Now sure, I normally play All/Any exclusively so I'm used to there being games where you can have like two evils vs an entire lobby of towns, but god the games I've had where you'd think Evils would have a chance, just for Town to go "...Oh right, I can kill 5 players during the day, if not more thanks to Amnesiac." and then they start doing exactly that. It's honestly made me miss the overall lower power level of TOS1 despite the clearly unhealthy stuff that plagues that game's All/Any and I overall enjoy TOS2 more still. Town's killing power also makes it *significantly* harder to be roles like Soul Collector, Plaguebearer, Baker or Arsonist, because all of those roles want things to be much slower, which is a lot harder when Town can press the "Murder 1/3 the lobby" buttons and makes it so Arsonist might not be able to do anything alongside Baker, or SC and PB come out when there's so little players left and those who are still alive are probably the self-confirming squad anyways. I really hope there's an introduction to something that pulls back the town killing power in the future, or some changes are had to make town not able to literally just guess by murdering 1/3 a lobby or more.
I AGREE SO MUCH. Even since early access, the overall increase in power level for each role made the games 1) super swingy and 2) much faster. It felt like it lost the fun thread of deduction from ToS 1. There's not really the same opportunities to pull off involved coordination plays or try to figure out such plays. Everything changes so much each day/night it's impossible to plan beyond the immediate next move.
I had a conjurer game where we killed n1, THREE deputies shot another townie day 2(all missing each other) along with me using my nuke that day Since we then had majority day 2 we got another town hung for a grand total of 9 town dead by the end of day 2
By far the most fun games on TOS2 are all any games where you play as town with a few ti, a few ts and a single town power. It’s still a strong town lineup capable of finding evils quickly but it allows for a lot more deception on the evils side and most importantly it’s hard for the town to hard confirm each other. It makes winning as town feel like you actually earned it while wining as coven/apoc is awarded when you make well thought out plays to deceive others. Getting matches with even just marshal and pros or marshal and dep in them together doesn’t feel good, win or lose.
One more thing is that like the town coven ALSO needs these powerful roles to have a chance, for example if you spawn in with a witch and ritualists you can DOUBLE covens night kills played right but if you happen to pull illusionist and there isn’t many TI’s or the town power roles kick in faster all they are is a vote for evil and possibly a scapegoat for coven to try and confirm themselves
In All Any, There Can Theoretically Be 3+ Autoconfirming Town Players Which Means You’re Basically Tarnation As Neutral And Not Much Better Off When Coven Or Apocalypse
The Counter of "insta confirm roles" are Rit/Doom/conj, but i understand that if the town will gain the info on who's confirmed in discussion phase then the doom/rit won't have time to react before getting hung. So only Conj can make sth happen. Yet even if they do so the claim space will be smaller and the town will know there is a specific evil alive
I've been thinking about playing Town of Salem 2 but the excessive focus on killing & instant confirm roles turned me away from it. So I just watch ToS 1 gameplay instead.
This is why I never got into the game. When I said the roles were too powerful people dismissed it, and now watching vids of people play, I stand by what I said. Sad but I doubt I'll ever give this one a go
This video made me consider the balance and what could be done to alleviate the level of power creep for some of the newer rules. Had an idea that would play into the information advantage better with the deputy. What it the deputy had to use an ability (could be nighttime or day) to decide who their current target is. That target would be the only person they can shoot the next day. This would give more counterplay to evils. If for some reason this would be insufficient you could even add so the target knows they are a deputy target, giving even more opportunity for counterplay.
I completely agree. You can't even 'fix' this in custom lobbies because the amount of roles you can ban is limited. I feel that the BetterTOS roles made the game worse. Don't get me wrong: it is a good mod, and I think that if you have a small group of very dedicated players with very high skill, it is probably quite balanced. But that's not what 99% of the players are going to be like. They'll be like 'ratata I've got an ability, LET'S GAMBLE!!!' and use it in ways that are going to screw over their teammates, which is probably why they buffed those roles to become even more lethal to make up for the screw-up scenario. One thing I feel might work to put the genie back into the bottle a little bit is to put in a limitation of one day ability/reveal per day per faction.. or at the very least for town. Thematically, it could make sense: the majority is shocked by what is going on and feels a need to properly process what has happened as a group and take communal action. Deputy killed someone? Dear god, someone jail them / give them a medal! Never mind those murderous Marshall and Prosecutor roles, which are even more deadly in their own ways. Mayor too can be the talk of the town! As for Socialite, I feel it also needs nerfing. Make the socialite send out a number of invitations during the day or even the night before. Maybe make players decide whther or not to accept the invitation during the day. Make people at the party register as being physically present at the socialite's house so that jinx, arsonist and pestilence can pop off if they know enough. Make Jailor/jailee unable to hear since they are obviously not going to be at the party. Etc. None of those things will make the role weaker at what it is meant to do: block evils from talking at night. (Hell, one might even identify them if they don't end up showing up for the party after canceling!) All it would do is put some skill into a role that basically screws evils over further in an already town-heavy meta.
I feel like this can be mostly solved by adding more defensive or "counter" roles to make these powerful effects risky or even be made useless if not used with caution and strategy, like Starspawn and Judge in BTOS2.
Actually,You making these types of videos is actually informative since i actually do know what is up with tos2 and I have an opinion on these topic And tbh,I learned alot in Tos1 from your videos and thank you for your videos since they inspired me to make essay videos for wolvesville And I agree that instant confirms is rather overpowered,especially if it has no risks at all
A 4-stack cov I think always has a chance no matter how poor the role chemistry may be, and feels balanced. But It feels impossibly hard to win as a neutral unless you get extremely lucky with fake claim. The only time they do win is a coordinated apoc team or a lucky and sneaky Solo Apoc/arso. I cant remember the last time any SK, Shroud, or WW won in games Ive participated in and the only buff I can think of is allowing NKs to see NKs of the same role, more than that and you'd basically be giving in to the power creep.
I will note I think that Tpow shoul be the only town slot that can autoconfirm and then have a limiter of some kind in place to stop too many from spawning in at once, luckily we do know BMG is at least aware of and discussing how to fix this but its sad it became a problem in the first place
it doesnt help that coven can lose just to do there being garbage roles in their team (jinx, illusionist, dreamweaver), or due to coven killing being without an info guy (Rit with no support), and neutral killings just suck entirely, with Werewolf only being able to do things every other night, SK just not having the killing power, and Shroud being literally the worst evil role in the game, while Arsonist is the most likely NK to win due to, being able to stay hidden and wipe out town in an instant. while neutral apoc needs either Soul Collector or Berserker to have a chance at winning, while PB and Baker are practically useless. people need to play better tos2 more, the buffed coven roles, and extra evils, and buffed Baker/PB/SC makes Town have a harder time
another issue is with all those power people who just want to abuse it or use it incorrectly could cost you the game maybe it’s someone who shot wrong or a prosecutor who’s throwing hell even Marshall throwing can screw over literally anyone Game throwers are highly common with these roles
tbh I haven't really thought about this but with the last few months of constant prosecutions, deputy shots, marshal reveals, etc playing evils feels more and more painful
I absolutely agree. i have been saying that there is too much killing in tos 2 and games are way too fast. Dep, Mar, Pros are either 5 good kills (1 third of the population got reduced + 3 confirmed) or 7 kills if pros or dep F up, (Meaning 4 to 6 Less townies) meaning that the game is usually over unless another absolute power can bring it back. It became community and ability managment rather than social deduction
socialite got changed but heres a change i think would fit for deputy, make it so that everyone doesnt see who is shooting, it gives a good killing ability for day town, limits to only 3 possible confirmed townies a day instead of a lot
only thing that I'm confused on is that all the roles are supposed to be even right? the prosecutor and deputy used to be similar, but dep had the ability to keep going after while the prosecutor cancelled the day yet had 2 shots. That change was almost whiplash to me because they made the roles almost the *exact* same except one has an extra charge. Dunno, kinda broke my favourite role personally, I loved the shoot and keep playing of dep but pros took that role and overpowered the other
I agree, I only played a couple games of ToS 2 and watched videos of a couple more, and I just felt like it had lost everything a social deduction game is supposed to be out, and became purely about using your role's powers. Feels incredibly boring to me now
To be perfectly fair, ToS1 had pretty strong roles too. Jailor+Lo meta was one thing but the ToS1 investigator, by just existing, whittled down the potential claim of all evils by a significant margin. A bg claim was more likely to be an Arso/GF than an actual BG. There was also the old retributionist etc etc... These problems are way more prevalent in ToS2 than ToS1 probably due to increased kill power speeding the game up but they were always present imo.
TPLO meta was more of an unintended consequence of the Ranked role list, though a smart Mafia could work around it. I'm glad it and Investigator were toned down in ToS2. Now why they would miss the point completely and introduce 20 instantly revealing roles? No one knows. Ritualist and Doomsayer may not even be present in the game. Now that I think about it if we port over new Investigator to OG ToS and tone down TPLO meta, I would honestly really enjoy that more than what ToS2 currently looks like. Add in reworked Mafia to be more similar to their ToS2 coven counterparts (- Conj) and NOW we are cooking.
Yeah, I have played tos2 for a while and I seen what you mean way to many times I have a few coven role ideas that can give coven a bit of a boost. As for Neutrals I have no idea what to do for them. new coven role: Goblin = Coven killing. A Goblin may visit a target when that target visits someone or is visited by someone other than goblin. A bomb that goblin planted on their visited target will go off killing both the target and the one they visited and/or the person that visited them. This has only two times it can be done. When both uses are gone. Goblin will appear as inno to sheriff and have no blood to investigator only after both bombs are used/on someone. (I think this could be balanced not sure although) new coven role: doppelganger = coven depiction. During day can choose a town power role to fake reveal as. Once it happens a fake out of a reveal role can happen. example as deputy you shoot someone. You actually don't and they are alive but silenced and their role will appear on the dead list. Same with mayor when they vote someone up to lynch along with prosecutor and marshal. Once night again they still won't be able to speak until next day even during a socialist party. They gain private whispers between faked dead and coven. fake dead will not see what numbers or names of coven. Once day again everyone will see the fake dead alive and they will be marked on the dead list as alive. Those who are fake dead that night can't use their roles powers at night like jailor if town. If coven although they can still use them. I know these could have some balancing reworks needed, but I thought they were fun ideas. I do like the idea of Banshee in the mod better tos2 as well.
The first one just speeds the game up drastically in the direction of coven if it’s not book you are basically guaranteed 2 kills if you survive n1… and another 2 kills if you survive night 3. The other role is even worse cause it makes the actual core you want to be reliable, the voting to be fucked with. Like Marshal reveal does one of the votes go through or all 3 fail? If one goes through which one? Mayor, does the kill go through if your +2 votes doesn’t matter if no why are you disadvantaging town if they kill a mafia? Pros/Dep is effectively a kill at parity. But well what role pops up on death? Cause that’s going to change how people play and if a town role pops up why didn’t you die(making this role useless outside parity)? But this is just a niche speed up role but for coven which we don’t need.
@@tiggerbane4325I do see your points, but I explain them at face value. It depends on the interactions between other roles plus they added Marshal and socialist which basically did the same thing as both these roles did they not? I say as a balance investigator, corner and astral visits would not set off the bombs. Plus the second role is a risky play and have some potential problems or repercussions. But with huge rewards with town being unable to know if a mayor reveal is real or not. Maybe make it if a town went on them after reveal they are silenced and stripped of their power to vote guilty or inno that next day? As I said sure it put things more in covens favor, but so did marshal and socialist and they got in base game. Their are many ways to balance them. Goblin could just kill one person with its bomb and instead the person who visited them would have blood on them and seem sus to sheriff. It can be changed as needed to balance. So I don’t see your problem here with these role ideas, because new roles all the time change the balance a game. I am just trying to give coven more of a fair chance.
@@TheCrazierDiamondz I mean I really don't think Marshall should have ever been added to the game firstly but goblin in the state that you said is stronger than Marshall because of how much coven knows. Socialite is not really comparable in how it changes the game with Doppleganger cause socialite just takes away the ability for mafia to communicate with each other they can still whisper to set things up during the next day or whatever, whereas Dopple takes away/edits the usage of voting in a way that fundamentally means town can't properly use it. Voting being the main way town is supposed to win the game. (They aren't supposed to rely on Town Killing/Town Power)
@@tiggerbane4325ahah, yeah ok, sure. I am sorry but that’s where a fair amount of people that actually play the game disagree with you there. One if town sees that you whisper to some and they are hanged and found out they are coven that would make you a possible sus candidate. Increasing. The chances of you being found out. This is a social deduction game along with some aid to find out the truth forcing coven to whisper each other during the day is huge because for coven to plan and execute a plan. It’s better to do it at night. Because people would see if you and other person would continue to whisper back and forth and in this game knowing who is whispering to who especially with a social deduction game. People would figure out quickly if you and two others were whispering a lot and one of you is lynch is coven. That would point to you. Thank you and move on for I am not bothering with this again
As Illusionist, I like to Illusion fellow coven members who have bugs on them because it will throw off the Spy's bugs, I hope this helps you guys as much as it did me 😊😊😊😊😊😊
The devs seem to have such an issue with overturning Town roles revive ret and evil chat spy notwithstanding. And they beg for good steam reviews after the balancing disaster of offseason...
easy way to weaken deputy is make it "A deputy has pulled out their gun and fired', who the deputy is though, isn't revealed. At the same time, make it unique as well
Personally I think they need to revert Pros back to once a day and end voting phase it was already a decent TPOW role but the reason it got buffed was bc Dep was better and it was apparent. Imo they shouldve nerfed Dep somehow and I saw this elsewhere but I like the idea of not revealing Dep when they shoot. At least theres room for a 1f1 cc and potential claim stealing if no one claims a shot
Dont worry about complaining, these are genuine issues with the game. I've noticed a repeating pattern with role design for town specifically: role is outshined by other role, buff original role past other role. Coroner was worse inv, then it got to autopsy stoned. Inv is worse than coroner so it gets perm blood and a pseudo spy ability. Pros is worse deputy, hell, make it a direct upgrade. Dwer sucks? Tough luck, just pray for a voodoo and you might be "useful"
I thought Marshal made town way overpowered until I started on Ranked season 2. That list specifically seems very evil sided since a guaranteed NK and Coven Killing means 2-3 players can die every night . If town doesn’t find an evil on day 2, they will lose the game. Even hanging the NE doesn’t help. The only possible exception is if NK hits coven early or if a CL hits NK with empowered attack. This encourages some foolhardy reveals on day 2 by Marshal and Deputy
town of salem 2 went from "oh no evils are so scary they have so much kp!" to "OH FUCK TOWN HAS EVERY TPOW AND 2 DEPUTIES OH NOOOOOOOOO EVILS WE HAVE TO BAND TOGETHER TO KILL THEM-|
Vanilla TOS2 has just become so unfun to play as any role that isn't town. And even when town, it's just too easy to confirm yourself. I really hope they cut back on these roles and perhaps remove the insta-confirm abilities.
I think the insta confirm roles are the big pusher of the problem. The town killing power is supposed to be balanced by a mistake costing you two townies, where a bad D2 deputy shot can pretty much just throw a game outright. But when you add insta confirm roles to the list, it has a side effect of making the town killers FAR more accurate. If you have 2-3 confirmed players alive, taking a random shot on the remaining list has pretty good odds of catching an evil just by pure luck. And even a modicum of thought put into the shot damn near guarantees it. In a game genre all about weighing risk of action vs risk of inaction, guarantees are a bad thing.
i agree with the most of the video but 1 quick correction the part where you explaied sdg only applies to MafiaStyle SDGs s/some Bastard SDGs. Games like Secret Hitler and Spy, are played in a way that evils wants to cause as much chaos and be extremely aggro against 1 specific player, so they can cover for 1 player (Austrian Painter), while they get their cards up (no need for majority) Heliopolis and Stigma encourage you to lie as much as possible to try to throw someone into an uncontestable evidence they're evil Blood on the Clocktower also has many other ways evils might wanna push to win or for townsfolk to win, specially since if the demon dies, town wins, but no one is confirmed so it makes even confirmed townies wanna bluff a lot to make evils slip info TTT and Murder also isn't about majority, it's about killing as many people as possible without getting caught so you can have an easier time when you are caught and has to kill everyone there also are many many other SDGs that run from the Mafia formula other than that, awesome video
My opinion is that with the abundance of day kills, it ruins the novelty of it, and should just be limited to Dep and Conjurer (Marshall is three Deputies in a trenchcoat and Pros is two) Also, I agree fully. While I love playing evils despite it all... It feels more like the thrill of weaseling my way out of an unfavorable situation, because Town is the Informed Majority and can take out half the list in a day, which also makes it go way too fast
now, I agree but imma throw my 2 cents into the mix I stopped playing ToS2 in season 1 for one role that no one seems to be complaining about and I'm curious as to why Hex master in ranked, which is the only mode I played, Hex master had an almost 50% chance to spawn thanks to the guaranteed coven power slot, was pretty much undetectable and added 1 kill per night to coven now, hexed people aren't dead but they might as well be if hex master wasn't caught by night 5 (and how could he be) he won the game alone in a very "nobody can do anything about it" way also his ability to kill apocalypse players was downright op also, he could be used by a necro and killing the necro the same night didn't stop the hex bomb from happening now, in ToS1 he was balanced around the fact that he took the book second, so it was fine in ToS2 he takes the book TENTH, how is that remotely balanced?? I don't know and I never saw coven lose when they had an hm on their team in ranked
I partially disagree with this take, because it's not just Town that got overclocked - it's that most roles in general are speeding up the game too fast. Insta-confirm townies roles are still punished heavily by the Ritualist and to the lesser extent - by the Conjurer and Witch, as Coven can just kill MORE than one townie per night, tipping the scale way faster than usual. I've played Season 1 ranked, and a lot of games ended day 4, because NKs/Doomsayers just added multiple kills so fast, that all of your deduction just crumbles down. And powercreep is such an unfortunate thing too, as it affect Social Deduction part too on all sides, as you can't even fake claim as townie without looking instantly sus.
the only issue is, Coven can just, get screwed over with useless roles, town can just, lack any good support roles, and neutral killing is the weakest faction(s) in the game.
@@woobgamer5210 so can be town - though, in ranked settings, it's less likely. But still - you have an option to get a sheriff (worst TI), Coroner (slowest TI, even if it's helluva reliable now), any TS that isn't Socialite, Trapper (who can't even protect from half of Coven) and Vet (who you can't confirm unless you walk into him). In a setting with 4 designated Coven, it's unlikely that all 4 will be awful, though I saw couple of setups so bad, Wild started as CK. NK's problem is the general speed of the game. Them killing tips off the balance even faster - and they suffer from the lack of options for social deduction even more than main sides, as you need to balance it out to keep yourself afloat.
Maybe a simple solution would be to hard limit the amount of killing roles town can have in any one game. Not sure what that limit should be, maybe 2-3 (?) with the rest being support/protection/investigation roles. I do agree, quick games make no sense in a game like this. Perhaps another way to reduce all the kills in N1/N2 is to have some roles wait for 3 days / 3 nights before they can use their killing power. Yes, it will make a bomb on night 3/day 3 but it will give people more chance to get rid of these roles before they pop. Kinda how Vigi has to wait for one night before they can shoot. Or, perhaps that will be the difference between ToS 1 and ToS 2: ToS 1 is more about deduction and logical reasoning, and ToS 2 is more of an arcade version where you don't need to be "good" to have "fun". (and by fun i mean a quick and easy victory without the leg-work you would have in ToS 1).
What if roles with an “insta-confirm” button like Mayor, Marsh, Dep and Pros would *replace* each other? As in, they’re mutually exclusive, or unique. And if there’s more than one TPOW in a list, the game would use other roles like Jailor or Monarch
I thought maybe of a way to reworkl marshall from the auto conf an make it a little more counterable. Its a night ability and cant use it n1. They press the button an same thing says a marshall called a tribunal an allows the 2 lynches but it keeps it annonymus. This can be cancelled by role blocks and dieing. You gotta be alive for it to be called or it cancells. This way it makes marshall not auto confirmed but also allows a way to block it by Rbers or being killed but also adds strategy to when it can be used as if theres no info you could waist it. Possible change? I see to much seers of in a final 5 witg 3 conf "just hang both" for a easy win.
I remember complaining about this in beta and not switching to tos 2 for the first 2 months or so after the release, it appears to be becoming more of an issue with each passing day... :(
the only way i can think to fix this without removing all of the new roles would be limiting them. make deputy and socialite unique with a lower % to be chosen, and make it so you can only have 1-2 tpow roles a game. that way town still has a few aces up their sleeve, but not enough to totally dominate from the start and wipe everyone early
I don’t play the game anymore (nothing to do with TOS2, stopped playing before it came out because too many trolls on TOS1 and just didn’t enjoy playing the game myself anymore in general) but I enjoy watching the gameplay of others and periodically check the subreddit and saw earlier today that one of the devs commented on a post complaining about the same issue and it’s something they have noted and will address. Whether actually do anything , is another story.
also, cs of how op roles like pros or marshall are now, roles that used to be strong in tos1, like veteran, are just mid now?? what happened to vet killing half the town n1 why is it so rare to see now??? not that it was a good thing but like
I dislike how much less cooperative the game has become. Especially in All Any, the correct answer is usually "so I started blasting" for any town role with killing power. There are more non-town roles than there are town roles, so odds are just better that you'll hit an evil than a townie, with zero information. And with so much non-town killing on night 1, the odds just improve. Conversely, there's so much easy confirmation now that the static list modes are too easy for town. Doomsayer isn't really that much of a threat compared to the info you gain from having three confirmed town. I don't know what needs to change though. You can't really put the genie back in the bottle.
Yes i agree but one of the mayor flaws is that that power can easily back fire lets say marshal kills idk the jailor trickster and monarch thats 2 tpow + 1 unhealthy role down just for 1 insta comfirm and lets say deputy shoots unrevealed mayor thats 2 of the insta comfs down now pros can accidentally get jest then get a poor doom whats the thing there? town litterally lost all insta comfirms but socialite it can backfire (It mostly doesnt tho)
This is why I like watching BetterTOS2 and BetterTOS1, because they know how to attempt to balance things out. For instance, everyone already knows if Marshal goes in the game then Judge has to ve in the game too. Auditor and Star counters all day ability towns really well. These devs just honestly need to coordinate with the modders, then there can be better balancing, hopefully stopping the power creep.
Aye, and depending on the gamemode, the "insta-confirm" player might not even be confirmed! They could be a Jackal recruit, they could be one of the two Town Traitors (because DTT is way too goddamn popular), they could be an Evil that got turned into that role via Cursed Soul, and hell, Vampires are a possibility in TAA! And if they haven't hit the confirm button yet, oh hey Starspawn, now's the time to cast Daybreak! So yea, BToS2 has definitely done a much better job at handling this problem. As Adagia said in a previous video iirc, Marshal is great news - it's a demonstration of the developers reaching out and cooperating with the modding community, HOWEVER they didn't also add the Neutral Pariah roles that counterbalance the Marshal, leaving them in a... *problematic...* state.
The interesting thing about BetterTOS2 is that in many games, the pattern is flipped around: Where the Town is now the informed minority, and the Evils are the uninformed majority.
Judge, Rit, Conjurer Marshal kills 3 evils with one button? Oh wait... that's 3 town courted Socialite? Getting reworked Deputy? Unique until reworked Jailor? Needs to blend in/get a coroner claimswap Mayor? Nuked/guessed/courted Pros? Guessed, only one kill per day And if Tpow claims at all, then conj/judge Monarch/Vigi can get claim stolen, ex tt mode And Auditor/Starspawn can prevent reveals
Help my change Only 2 of these roles with confirms yourselves buttons max. Also kill power needs to be rolled back. This isn’t social deduction. This is gambling based on kill power
I stopped playing when the patch containing the Marshal dropped. I was already disappointed with the increase in killing power among all the factions, and Marshal broke the camel's back. I primarily follow the game through RUclips videos of Ranked play.....which barely exist now. Seems the tiny community of TOS2 splintered further because a mod called Better TOS2 dropped with more crazy roles.
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When dep came out it was “wow a town role that can kill during the day? What a fun and novel concept” and then there was pros… and then Marshal… and here we are
I personally like when you “complain” it’s very informative and it’s very nice to hear your opinion.
it makes we want to complain about things too
I'm gonna add on to her "hurting town" section. If your insta confirm kill power roles make the wrong choice, or are just straight up menaces and throw the game, the consequences aren't Just on their shoulders because you can lose so many townies just because they wanted to be funny. Marshal doesn't even face a penalty for hanging townies, at least Deputy and Pros have their own lives to worry about.
It's definitely a problem when a third of the players get confirmed by D2, and another third are dead by the end of N2. Then the rest of the game is just hanging the remaining third one by one until evil are gone.
I agree. In TOS we only had Mayor with an insta-confirm-button. If your faction coordinated then you could claim hard to claim roles like Jailor or Transporter. But now we have way to many Town-roles with insta-confirm-buttons and imo way to much killing power in all factions.
One way to balance this is to not have Mayor and Marshal not existing together. If Marshal exist, then Mayor shouldn't exist and vice versa. It's still possible for both to not exist in a game though.
@@unknowed5048 I agree with that.
@@unknowed5048this was how it originally was IN BTOS1
@@unknowed5048 Marshal would still be too strong, no Judge - I feel like the role was balancing on being able to be Hijacked by evils with judge in modded. This isn't present on the main game
@@EmberGoWild yea but the game do feel different
Pipetron has also been talking about the same issue in his streams. His suggestion was making all NKs win together (but not get night chat) because buffing evils with more killing power would just speed the game up even more.
You also lose out on the secret spread of Vampires in ToS 2. In ToS 1, you could have vampires spreading and taking over the town without anyone even realising vamps are in the game. But in ToS 2, they only exist in a mode that basically no one plays. Vamps could be a powerful counter to the "can only use their ability once or twice" self confirming roles like dep, pros, socialite and marshall, because you don't know if they were converted later.
Also Mayor (the only self-confirming role in ToS 1) was very vulnerable and restricted once they revealed. They couldn't whisper or be whispered to, they couldn't be protected by several TP roles. Whereas all of the other self-confirming roles in ToS 2 can be healed normally and whisper (with the main unblockable threats being conj, doom or rit)
I definitely agree with what you've said here. When I'm playing evil and get caught out as the least confirmed town in a game, I often joke "process of elimination too strong devs please nerf" but it's become less and less of a joke as time has gone on. Instant confirm yourself button can definitely be problematic, however I don't think they did it wrong every time. Mayor is in a fantastic place despite this, because of what it gives up and how much of a target it remains even after revealing. Roles like prosecutor, deputy, or Marshal have limited charges, and once those are exhausted evils have no real incentive to prioritize killing them. They also lose nothing but anonymity (if they don't kill town). Mayor, on the other hand, loses the ability to be protected by cleric and crusader, while remaining a constant threat for evils due to its voting power thus putting it in actual danger. If this level of balancing could be applied to more of the roles, I think it could help mitigate part of the issue with instant confirm buttons. That being said, this still wouldn't really address some of the problems you've brought up, but I think it's better than nothing.
I also think that since Town is the only faction who's had their kill power buffed since release, it wouldn't take too much to put it back into a more manageable state. Revert prosecutor, nerf Marshal to 2 lynches, make deputy tpow, and I think that would be a pretty balanced state of affairs on the kill power front.
Put Deputy in TPOW then only allow 2 TPOW's to spawn per game
@@EmberGoWild I don't really see a need to limit the number of TPow per game when they're all unique already. At least in All Any, maybe it's different in other gamemodes.
What if a Deputy just doesn't get revealed instead? It would still work with the animation, just don't include the player's name and character in there. This would also allow evils to steal the Deputy claim, like they can do with Vigilante and Veteran. Think of the Hidden Killers modifier they added to Ranked for season 2, where you can now easily fake your kill as another kill-capable role.
@@GDErrorthat just sets up a forced 50/50 which still strongly favours town unless you were at parity before said Deputy shot…
@@tiggerbane4325 true, but it's better than a 100/0
This is an interesting perspective. To me, Town of Salem has always had power creep. I used to play forum mafia in games where almost the whole town is generic no-power citizens, and they have one or maybe two people who have what a ToS player would call "roles." Similarly, each scum faction (mafia, werewolves, etc.) would have their factional nightkill and maybe one member with a role beyond that.
When Starcraft 2 Mafia (the precursor to Town of Salem, I think by the same developer), it had a citizen role, but people wouldn't usually use it because people with the citizen role would often quit the game as soon as they received the role. If they felt like they'd have more fun playing a different role, there was nothing stopping them from quitting and re-joining a new lobby for a chance at a different role. This led to most lobbies giving everyone a non-citizen, non-mafioso role (though for a while, competitive private lobbies among skilled players still ran with Citizens and Mafioso in the list). The metagame in public lobbies became about using role powers effectively, and scumhunting was more about finding people who are doing their role wrong (like a Doctor who's always conveniently on the wrong person) rather than about social tells.
I think Town of Salem inherited that metagame from the start, and the power creep follows from there. Because the game is about the roles, every role has to be powerful, otherwise people are going to be disappointed if they get a weak role. Any new roles they add have to be powerful enough that someone would choose to play it (even if you don't actually get a choice beyond scrolls), and any roles that no one would choose need to be either brought to parity or removed. Power creep is a consequence of that.
Mayor should be the only press button to confirm yourself role. Alternatively, make a limit where only 2 confirm roles can spawn in a game. Meaning no games with 3 deputies, mayor, prosecutor and all evils just getting hanged.
ToS 2 made mayor work as an insta-confirm role by making it unable to be whispered, meaning that, while you have a confirmed town, they can't use that to turn the uninformed majority into an informed majority
I really do think a simple fix for the fact there are 5 insta conf tpow is just implementing a way to limit them.
Socialite is one of the roles of all time
Deputy is one of the roles of all time
Yeah, games where there's a Pros, a Marshal, 2 Deputies, a Socialite and a Mayor are just not fun. There should be a limit on how many TPows can be in a game total imo. I'm not well versed enough in game balance to give an exact solution but as it stands you could easily have all 5 Tpows in a single game iirc
common town. also rare curits w
Yeah better tos common town makes game way better
BetterTOS 2 fixes this issue with "Common town" and other new rolelist things.
@@Mattssz tell me more about this mod it sounds cool fr
Oh 100% - recently I have been obsessed with Blood on the Clocktower and it has really just turned my entire world upside down when it comes to TOS. If anyone here has played that game you will understand just how wildly different it is, and how the games are always full of confusion, several possibilities for how the game is playing out, the possibility for just about _everyone_ to be evil...
If you haven't played it, it's truly a great game. The balance of it isn't even considering the other amazing unique mechanics it brings into play like the Storyteller (game host) and how some roles are built around interacting with them.
I love BotC so much
Blood on the Clocktower really just does everything right when it comes to social deduction.
The social aspect of the game is inherently intact, mechanical deduction exists in the form of puzzles that you must unravel, but isn't to be relied upon entirely to solve any given game, lack of flips and talking after death gives evil options for success and keeps all players engaged... the list goes on.
I tried the game, I found it fun because you can trust no one even yourself. Hard claim is minimal even for town.
The one game of BOTC where I actually clicked all of the pieces together and solved the game by Day 3 was immensely satisfying... and also infuriating because I had no actual proof of being right until the game ended and we saw the grimoire. It was certainly far more satisfying than "just kill everyone and hope for the best." ToS2 is only "fun" for me in a "I'll log in, goof around, and call it a night." When your social deduction game is best enjoyed after three beers... there's something wrong, and for me that's the only way I can "enjoy" ToS2 :D
I should look it up, then.
To agree with someone else in the comments here, playing other social deduction games really flips town of Salem on its head. In tos2, town can easily confirm, kill, and protect against evils. It’s also really annoying when they waste their powers to kill town in a throw or d2 shot/pros. In Blood on the clock tower roles are almost impossible to confirm, even the role that is similar to dep ‘shoot during day, kill main bad guy’ ANYONE can claim it, and their shot won’t work cause they’re not real. But anyone can claim anything (if it’s in the role list) and it means everyone could be lying at the same time. It’s much more social deduction based on cues and lies, than just ‘haha funny pros and 6 dep shots and evil dies’ when the best evil can do is hide their members from a sheriff.
every heard of wolvesville?where they have a literal seer,a role that can BLOCK the damn wolf from voting,a double-check sheriff,a 2-shots deputy no penalty
r/foundmurdock
Honestly the killing power Town has had has been a major blow to my enjoyment of TOS2 lately too ever since Marshal's introduction. I've seen games where Town would have Marshal, Prosecutor, and then like, two Amnesiacs waiting on the sidelines, and then the game just ends day 3 because the towns with killing power all pressed the shiny kill a player button on their screen LOL. Now sure, I normally play All/Any exclusively so I'm used to there being games where you can have like two evils vs an entire lobby of towns, but god the games I've had where you'd think Evils would have a chance, just for Town to go "...Oh right, I can kill 5 players during the day, if not more thanks to Amnesiac." and then they start doing exactly that. It's honestly made me miss the overall lower power level of TOS1 despite the clearly unhealthy stuff that plagues that game's All/Any and I overall enjoy TOS2 more still. Town's killing power also makes it *significantly* harder to be roles like Soul Collector, Plaguebearer, Baker or Arsonist, because all of those roles want things to be much slower, which is a lot harder when Town can press the "Murder 1/3 the lobby" buttons and makes it so Arsonist might not be able to do anything alongside Baker, or SC and PB come out when there's so little players left and those who are still alive are probably the self-confirming squad anyways. I really hope there's an introduction to something that pulls back the town killing power in the future, or some changes are had to make town not able to literally just guess by murdering 1/3 a lobby or more.
This is what killed the mafia from the starcraft 2 arcade and made town of salem 1 popular.
Now town of salem 2 added the broken roles from mafia
I AGREE SO MUCH. Even since early access, the overall increase in power level for each role made the games 1) super swingy and 2) much faster. It felt like it lost the fun thread of deduction from ToS 1. There's not really the same opportunities to pull off involved coordination plays or try to figure out such plays. Everything changes so much each day/night it's impossible to plan beyond the immediate next move.
Damm powercreep is affecting even my social deduction games can't escape this shit man
I had a conjurer game where we killed n1, THREE deputies shot another townie day 2(all missing each other) along with me using my nuke that day
Since we then had majority day 2 we got another town hung for a grand total of 9 town dead by the end of day 2
By far the most fun games on TOS2 are all any games where you play as town with a few ti, a few ts and a single town power. It’s still a strong town lineup capable of finding evils quickly but it allows for a lot more deception on the evils side and most importantly it’s hard for the town to hard confirm each other. It makes winning as town feel like you actually earned it while wining as coven/apoc is awarded when you make well thought out plays to deceive others. Getting matches with even just marshal and pros or marshal and dep in them together doesn’t feel good, win or lose.
One more thing is that like the town coven ALSO needs these powerful roles to have a chance, for example if you spawn in with a witch and ritualists you can DOUBLE covens night kills played right but if you happen to pull illusionist and there isn’t many TI’s or the town power roles kick in faster all they are is a vote for evil and possibly a scapegoat for coven to try and confirm themselves
ToS 2 is like TOS 1 when vet called for TP/LO and half of town visited arso n1
yt refuses to put your videos into my related any sooner than a month later than they come out so i'm giving you the bell
Ah yes, spawning in with the strongest possible coven team and instantly losing to a deputy and a marshal day 3. Beautiful.
In All Any, There Can Theoretically Be 3+ Autoconfirming Town Players Which Means You’re Basically Tarnation As Neutral And Not Much Better Off When Coven Or Apocalypse
The Counter of "insta confirm roles" are Rit/Doom/conj, but i understand that if the town will gain the info on who's confirmed in discussion phase then the doom/rit won't have time to react before getting hung. So only Conj can make sth happen.
Yet even if they do so the claim space will be smaller and the town will know there is a specific evil alive
Not every game has these roles
Part of the "instant confirmation" problem is that there aren't enough Vampires and Cursed Souls to un-confirm townies.
I've been thinking about playing Town of Salem 2 but the excessive focus on killing & instant confirm roles turned me away from it. So I just watch ToS 1 gameplay instead.
Wait you're here???
As someone who still plays tos1, I've been enjoying watching the entire community explode over this XD
I knew those self confirming roles were trouble. well I thought it was going to be the sniping roles (doom/rit) but still
This is why I never got into the game. When I said the roles were too powerful people dismissed it, and now watching vids of people play, I stand by what I said. Sad but I doubt I'll ever give this one a go
This video made me consider the balance and what could be done to alleviate the level of power creep for some of the newer rules. Had an idea that would play into the information advantage better with the deputy.
What it the deputy had to use an ability (could be nighttime or day) to decide who their current target is. That target would be the only person they can shoot the next day. This would give more counterplay to evils. If for some reason this would be insufficient you could even add so the target knows they are a deputy target, giving even more opportunity for counterplay.
I completely agree. You can't even 'fix' this in custom lobbies because the amount of roles you can ban is limited.
I feel that the BetterTOS roles made the game worse. Don't get me wrong: it is a good mod, and I think that if you have a small group of very dedicated players with very high skill, it is probably quite balanced. But that's not what 99% of the players are going to be like. They'll be like 'ratata I've got an ability, LET'S GAMBLE!!!' and use it in ways that are going to screw over their teammates, which is probably why they buffed those roles to become even more lethal to make up for the screw-up scenario.
One thing I feel might work to put the genie back into the bottle a little bit is to put in a limitation of one day ability/reveal per day per faction.. or at the very least for town. Thematically, it could make sense: the majority is shocked by what is going on and feels a need to properly process what has happened as a group and take communal action. Deputy killed someone? Dear god, someone jail them / give them a medal! Never mind those murderous Marshall and Prosecutor roles, which are even more deadly in their own ways. Mayor too can be the talk of the town!
As for Socialite, I feel it also needs nerfing. Make the socialite send out a number of invitations during the day or even the night before. Maybe make players decide whther or not to accept the invitation during the day. Make people at the party register as being physically present at the socialite's house so that jinx, arsonist and pestilence can pop off if they know enough. Make Jailor/jailee unable to hear since they are obviously not going to be at the party. Etc. None of those things will make the role weaker at what it is meant to do: block evils from talking at night. (Hell, one might even identify them if they don't end up showing up for the party after canceling!) All it would do is put some skill into a role that basically screws evils over further in an already town-heavy meta.
feels like the game is so unplayable rn you have to install a mod to be able to play properly
oh wait-
I feel like this can be mostly solved by adding more defensive or "counter" roles to make these powerful effects risky or even be made useless if not used with caution and strategy, like Starspawn and Judge in BTOS2.
Actually,You making these types of videos is actually informative since i actually do know what is up with tos2 and I have an opinion on these topic
And tbh,I learned alot in Tos1 from your videos and thank you for your videos since they inspired me to make essay videos for wolvesville
And I agree that instant confirms is rather overpowered,especially if it has no risks at all
A 4-stack cov I think always has a chance no matter how poor the role chemistry may be, and feels balanced. But It feels impossibly hard to win as a neutral unless you get extremely lucky with fake claim. The only time they do win is a coordinated apoc team or a lucky and sneaky Solo Apoc/arso. I cant remember the last time any SK, Shroud, or WW won in games Ive participated in and the only buff I can think of is allowing NKs to see NKs of the same role, more than that and you'd basically be giving in to the power creep.
I will note I think that Tpow shoul be the only town slot that can autoconfirm and then have a limiter of some kind in place to stop too many from spawning in at once, luckily we do know BMG is at least aware of and discussing how to fix this but its sad it became a problem in the first place
it doesnt help that coven can lose just to do there being garbage roles in their team (jinx, illusionist, dreamweaver), or due to coven killing being without an info guy (Rit with no support),
and neutral killings just suck entirely, with Werewolf only being able to do things every other night, SK just not having the killing power, and Shroud being literally the worst evil role in the game, while Arsonist is the most likely NK to win due to, being able to stay hidden and wipe out town in an instant. while neutral apoc needs either Soul Collector or Berserker to have a chance at winning, while PB and Baker are practically useless.
people need to play better tos2 more, the buffed coven roles, and extra evils, and buffed Baker/PB/SC makes Town have a harder time
I feel like a good fix is making Deputy, Pros, and Marshal mutually exclusive. That way we get 1 of them and not all 3
Ya, create a new category called "Town Day Killing" or something.
We welcome you back to Tos1
What a well put together video! I completely agree
another issue is with all those power people who just want to abuse it or use it incorrectly could cost you the game maybe it’s someone who shot wrong or a prosecutor who’s throwing hell even Marshall throwing can screw over literally anyone Game throwers are highly common with these roles
remember that deputy mayor prosecutor and marshal can turn a 4v8
tbh I haven't really thought about this but with the last few months of constant prosecutions, deputy shots, marshal reveals, etc playing evils feels more and more painful
I absolutely agree. i have been saying that there is too much killing in tos 2 and games are way too fast.
Dep, Mar, Pros are either 5 good kills (1 third of the population got reduced + 3 confirmed) or 7 kills if pros or dep F up, (Meaning 4 to 6 Less townies) meaning that the game is usually over unless another absolute power can bring it back.
It became community and ability managment rather than social deduction
socialite got changed but heres a change i think would fit for deputy, make it so that everyone doesnt see who is shooting, it gives a good killing ability for day town, limits to only 3 possible confirmed townies a day instead of a lot
only thing that I'm confused on is that all the roles are supposed to be even right?
the prosecutor and deputy used to be similar, but dep had the ability to keep going after while the prosecutor cancelled the day yet had 2 shots. That change was almost whiplash to me because they made the roles almost the *exact* same except one has an extra charge.
Dunno, kinda broke my favourite role personally, I loved the shoot and keep playing of dep but pros took that role and overpowered the other
I agree, I only played a couple games of ToS 2 and watched videos of a couple more, and I just felt like it had lost everything a social deduction game is supposed to be out, and became purely about using your role's powers. Feels incredibly boring to me now
Shout out to all of the retributionists that get hanged day 3 because the graveyard has zero usable green bodies in it
To be perfectly fair, ToS1 had pretty strong roles too. Jailor+Lo meta was one thing but the ToS1 investigator, by just existing, whittled down the potential claim of all evils by a significant margin. A bg claim was more likely to be an Arso/GF than an actual BG.
There was also the old retributionist etc etc... These problems are way more prevalent in ToS2 than ToS1 probably due to increased kill power speeding the game up but they were always present imo.
TPLO meta was more of an unintended consequence of the Ranked role list, though a smart Mafia could work around it. I'm glad it and Investigator were toned down in ToS2. Now why they would miss the point completely and introduce 20 instantly revealing roles? No one knows. Ritualist and Doomsayer may not even be present in the game.
Now that I think about it if we port over new Investigator to OG ToS and tone down TPLO meta, I would honestly really enjoy that more than what ToS2 currently looks like. Add in reworked Mafia to be more similar to their ToS2 coven counterparts (- Conj) and NOW we are cooking.
Yeah, I have played tos2 for a while and I seen what you mean way to many times
I have a few coven role ideas that can give coven a bit of a boost. As for Neutrals I have no idea what to do for them.
new coven role: Goblin = Coven killing. A Goblin may visit a target when that target visits someone or is visited by someone other than goblin. A bomb that goblin planted on their visited target will go off killing both the target and the one they visited and/or the person that visited them. This has only two times it can be done. When both uses are gone. Goblin will appear as inno to sheriff and have no blood to investigator only after both bombs are used/on someone. (I think this could be balanced not sure although)
new coven role: doppelganger = coven depiction. During day can choose a town power role to fake reveal as. Once it happens a fake out of a reveal role can happen. example as deputy you shoot someone. You actually don't and they are alive but silenced and their role will appear on the dead list. Same with mayor when they vote someone up to lynch along with prosecutor and marshal. Once night again they still won't be able to speak until next day even during a socialist party. They gain private whispers between faked dead and coven. fake dead will not see what numbers or names of coven. Once day again everyone will see the fake dead alive and they will be marked on the dead list as alive. Those who are fake dead that night can't use their roles powers at night like jailor if town. If coven although they can still use them.
I know these could have some balancing reworks needed, but I thought they were fun ideas. I do like the idea of Banshee in the mod better tos2 as well.
The first one just speeds the game up drastically in the direction of coven if it’s not book you are basically guaranteed 2 kills if you survive n1… and another 2 kills if you survive night 3.
The other role is even worse cause it makes the actual core you want to be reliable, the voting to be fucked with. Like Marshal reveal does one of the votes go through or all 3 fail? If one goes through which one? Mayor, does the kill go through if your +2 votes doesn’t matter if no why are you disadvantaging town if they kill a mafia? Pros/Dep is effectively a kill at parity. But well what role pops up on death? Cause that’s going to change how people play and if a town role pops up why didn’t you die(making this role useless outside parity)? But this is just a niche speed up role but for coven which we don’t need.
@@tiggerbane4325I do see your points, but I explain them at face value. It depends on the interactions between other roles plus they added Marshal and socialist which basically did the same thing as both these roles did they not? I say as a balance investigator, corner and astral visits would not set off the bombs. Plus the second role is a risky play and have some potential problems or repercussions. But with huge rewards with town being unable to know if a mayor reveal is real or not. Maybe make it if a town went on them after reveal they are silenced and stripped of their power to vote guilty or inno that next day? As I said sure it put things more in covens favor, but so did marshal and socialist and they got in base game. Their are many ways to balance them. Goblin could just kill one person with its bomb and instead the person who visited them would have blood on them and seem sus to sheriff. It can be changed as needed to balance. So I don’t see your problem here with these role ideas, because new roles all the time change the balance a game. I am just trying to give coven more of a fair chance.
@@TheCrazierDiamondz I mean I really don't think Marshall should have ever been added to the game firstly but goblin in the state that you said is stronger than Marshall because of how much coven knows.
Socialite is not really comparable in how it changes the game with Doppleganger cause socialite just takes away the ability for mafia to communicate with each other they can still whisper to set things up during the next day or whatever, whereas Dopple takes away/edits the usage of voting in a way that fundamentally means town can't properly use it. Voting being the main way town is supposed to win the game. (They aren't supposed to rely on Town Killing/Town Power)
@@tiggerbane4325ahah, yeah ok, sure. I am sorry but that’s where a fair amount of people that actually play the game disagree with you there. One if town sees that you whisper to some and they are hanged and found out they are coven that would make you a possible sus candidate. Increasing. The chances of you being found out. This is a social deduction game along with some aid to find out the truth forcing coven to whisper each other during the day is huge because for coven to plan and execute a plan. It’s better to do it at night. Because people would see if you and other person would continue to whisper back and forth and in this game knowing who is whispering to who especially with a social deduction game. People would figure out quickly if you and two others were whispering a lot and one of you is lynch is coven. That would point to you. Thank you and move on for I am not bothering with this again
Uh Oh, Power Creep! Hopefully They bring it down like Deputy being limited to 1!
As Illusionist, I like to Illusion fellow coven members who have bugs on them because it will throw off the Spy's bugs, I hope this helps you guys as much as it did me 😊😊😊😊😊😊
My teammates were hung on that basis whenever that happened. Am I doing something wrong?
The devs seem to have such an issue with overturning Town roles
revive ret and evil chat spy notwithstanding.
And they beg for good steam reviews after the balancing disaster of offseason...
easy way to weaken deputy is make it "A deputy has pulled out their gun and fired', who the deputy is though, isn't revealed. At the same time, make it unique as well
On everything I love, Marshall will make me commit not awake for 8 hours
rip medium and transporter.
really transporter would make everything better lmao
Personally I think they need to revert Pros back to once a day and end voting phase it was already a decent TPOW role but the reason it got buffed was bc Dep was better and it was apparent. Imo they shouldve nerfed Dep somehow and I saw this elsewhere but I like the idea of not revealing Dep when they shoot. At least theres room for a 1f1 cc and potential claim stealing if no one claims a shot
Dont worry about complaining, these are genuine issues with the game. I've noticed a repeating pattern with role design for town specifically: role is outshined by other role, buff original role past other role.
Coroner was worse inv, then it got to autopsy stoned. Inv is worse than coroner so it gets perm blood and a pseudo spy ability.
Pros is worse deputy, hell, make it a direct upgrade.
Dwer sucks? Tough luck, just pray for a voodoo and you might be "useful"
I thought Marshal made town way overpowered until I started on Ranked season 2. That list specifically seems very evil sided since a guaranteed NK and Coven Killing means 2-3 players can die every night . If town doesn’t find an evil on day 2, they will lose the game. Even hanging the NE doesn’t help.
The only possible exception is if NK hits coven early or if a CL hits NK with empowered attack. This encourages some foolhardy reveals on day 2 by Marshal and Deputy
One of the worst parts of powercreep is how some role can just get entirely left in the dust
town of salem 2 went from "oh no evils are so scary they have so much kp!" to "OH FUCK TOWN HAS EVERY TPOW AND 2 DEPUTIES OH NOOOOOOOOO EVILS WE HAVE TO BAND TOGETHER TO KILL THEM-|
Vanilla TOS2 has just become so unfun to play as any role that isn't town.
And even when town, it's just too easy to confirm yourself. I really hope they cut back on these roles and perhaps remove the insta-confirm abilities.
I think the insta confirm roles are the big pusher of the problem. The town killing power is supposed to be balanced by a mistake costing you two townies, where a bad D2 deputy shot can pretty much just throw a game outright. But when you add insta confirm roles to the list, it has a side effect of making the town killers FAR more accurate. If you have 2-3 confirmed players alive, taking a random shot on the remaining list has pretty good odds of catching an evil just by pure luck. And even a modicum of thought put into the shot damn near guarantees it. In a game genre all about weighing risk of action vs risk of inaction, guarantees are a bad thing.
i agree with the most of the video but 1 quick correction
the part where you explaied sdg only applies to MafiaStyle SDGs s/some Bastard SDGs.
Games like Secret Hitler and Spy, are played in a way that evils wants to cause as much chaos and be extremely aggro against 1 specific player, so they can cover for 1 player (Austrian Painter), while they get their cards up (no need for majority)
Heliopolis and Stigma encourage you to lie as much as possible to try to throw someone into an uncontestable evidence they're evil
Blood on the Clocktower also has many other ways evils might wanna push to win or for townsfolk to win, specially since if the demon dies, town wins, but no one is confirmed so it makes even confirmed townies wanna bluff a lot to make evils slip info
TTT and Murder also isn't about majority, it's about killing as many people as possible without getting caught so you can have an easier time when you are caught and has to kill everyone
there also are many many other SDGs that run from the Mafia formula
other than that, awesome video
Marshal and pros should be mutually exclusive. You can have one but not the other. Deputy should be unique. Socialite should be unique too.
My opinion is that with the abundance of day kills, it ruins the novelty of it, and should just be limited to Dep and Conjurer (Marshall is three Deputies in a trenchcoat and Pros is two)
Also, I agree fully. While I love playing evils despite it all... It feels more like the thrill of weaseling my way out of an unfavorable situation, because Town is the Informed Majority and can take out half the list in a day, which also makes it go way too fast
now, I agree but imma throw my 2 cents into the mix
I stopped playing ToS2 in season 1 for one role that no one seems to be complaining about and I'm curious as to why
Hex master
in ranked, which is the only mode I played, Hex master had an almost 50% chance to spawn thanks to the guaranteed coven power slot, was pretty much undetectable and added 1 kill per night to coven
now, hexed people aren't dead but they might as well be
if hex master wasn't caught by night 5 (and how could he be) he won the game alone in a very "nobody can do anything about it" way
also his ability to kill apocalypse players was downright op
also, he could be used by a necro and killing the necro the same night didn't stop the hex bomb from happening
now, in ToS1 he was balanced around the fact that he took the book second, so it was fine
in ToS2 he takes the book TENTH, how is that remotely balanced?? I don't know and I never saw coven lose when they had an hm on their team in ranked
Why is prosecutor so damn strong? 2 kills at day AND normal vote? AND confirmed as pros…
I partially disagree with this take, because it's not just Town that got overclocked - it's that most roles in general are speeding up the game too fast.
Insta-confirm townies roles are still punished heavily by the Ritualist and to the lesser extent - by the Conjurer and Witch, as Coven can just kill MORE than one townie per night, tipping the scale way faster than usual. I've played Season 1 ranked, and a lot of games ended day 4, because NKs/Doomsayers just added multiple kills so fast, that all of your deduction just crumbles down.
And powercreep is such an unfortunate thing too, as it affect Social Deduction part too on all sides, as you can't even fake claim as townie without looking instantly sus.
the only issue is, Coven can just, get screwed over with useless roles, town can just, lack any good support roles, and neutral killing is the weakest faction(s) in the game.
@@woobgamer5210 so can be town - though, in ranked settings, it's less likely.
But still - you have an option to get a sheriff (worst TI), Coroner (slowest TI, even if it's helluva reliable now), any TS that isn't Socialite, Trapper (who can't even protect from half of Coven) and Vet (who you can't confirm unless you walk into him). In a setting with 4 designated Coven, it's unlikely that all 4 will be awful, though I saw couple of setups so bad, Wild started as CK.
NK's problem is the general speed of the game. Them killing tips off the balance even faster - and they suffer from the lack of options for social deduction even more than main sides, as you need to balance it out to keep yourself afloat.
games should last up to Night 10 at max, optiminally around 6-8
The sad thing about Marshal is that right now it's only balanced only because alot of Marshal players tend to lynch townies.
Maybe a simple solution would be to hard limit the amount of killing roles town can have in any one game. Not sure what that limit should be, maybe 2-3 (?) with the rest being support/protection/investigation roles. I do agree, quick games make no sense in a game like this. Perhaps another way to reduce all the kills in N1/N2 is to have some roles wait for 3 days / 3 nights before they can use their killing power. Yes, it will make a bomb on night 3/day 3 but it will give people more chance to get rid of these roles before they pop. Kinda how Vigi has to wait for one night before they can shoot.
Or, perhaps that will be the difference between ToS 1 and ToS 2: ToS 1 is more about deduction and logical reasoning, and ToS 2 is more of an arcade version where you don't need to be "good" to have "fun". (and by fun i mean a quick and easy victory without the leg-work you would have in ToS 1).
What if roles with an “insta-confirm” button like Mayor, Marsh, Dep and Pros would *replace* each other?
As in, they’re mutually exclusive, or unique.
And if there’s more than one TPOW in a list, the game would use other roles like Jailor or Monarch
Now I wonder if powercreep also exist in Wolfesvillr which is similar to ToS
I feel like if you made deputy not revealed, it would likely be a lot better.
I do miss ToS 1
I thought maybe of a way to reworkl marshall from the auto conf an make it a little more counterable.
Its a night ability and cant use it n1. They press the button an same thing says a marshall called a tribunal an allows the 2 lynches but it keeps it annonymus. This can be cancelled by role blocks and dieing. You gotta be alive for it to be called or it cancells.
This way it makes marshall not auto confirmed but also allows a way to block it by Rbers or being killed but also adds strategy to when it can be used as if theres no info you could waist it.
Possible change?
I see to much seers of in a final 5 witg 3 conf "just hang both" for a easy win.
I remember complaining about this in beta and not switching to tos 2 for the first 2 months or so after the release, it appears to be becoming more of an issue with each passing day... :(
What d I you thibknof the new patch and role changes?
Or they can add the old retributionist back but as coven.
ur so real adagia speak ur (the objective) truth
While I do agree, I'm at a loss as to how BMG can scale back the power creep. If you have any, I'd love to hear your ideas to help combat the issue.
the only way i can think to fix this without removing all of the new roles would be limiting them. make deputy and socialite unique with a lower % to be chosen, and make it so you can only have 1-2 tpow roles a game. that way town still has a few aces up their sleeve, but not enough to totally dominate from the start and wipe everyone early
I don’t play the game anymore (nothing to do with TOS2, stopped playing before it came out because too many trolls on TOS1 and just didn’t enjoy playing the game myself anymore in general) but I enjoy watching the gameplay of others and periodically check the subreddit and saw earlier today that one of the devs commented on a post complaining about the same issue and it’s something they have noted and will address. Whether actually do anything , is another story.
I disagree. Claiming Jailor as the Witch is very fun indeed. And normally works out.
In the meantime, TOS 1 is still there
As a CAA player, i bought town of salem 2, read that there was no GA in the game, and still have not installed it
i prefer to barely pay attention to the game and mindlessly throw people up on the gallows while i use my night ability on basically random players
im so glad im not the only one who thinks town is way too op right now lol they should rly buff evils. shroud in particular desperately needs one
How do we stop powercreep? We just buff more roles that will balance it out
marshall kill or psychics W
Great video
Cool vid. Now, how do I shoot the Mayor as Deputy
also, cs of how op roles like pros or marshall are now, roles that used to be strong in tos1, like veteran, are just mid now?? what happened to vet killing half the town n1 why is it so rare to see now??? not that it was a good thing but like
I dislike how much less cooperative the game has become. Especially in All Any, the correct answer is usually "so I started blasting" for any town role with killing power. There are more non-town roles than there are town roles, so odds are just better that you'll hit an evil than a townie, with zero information. And with so much non-town killing on night 1, the odds just improve. Conversely, there's so much easy confirmation now that the static list modes are too easy for town. Doomsayer isn't really that much of a threat compared to the info you gain from having three confirmed town. I don't know what needs to change though. You can't really put the genie back in the bottle.
i think what we need to counter this is to delete trickster
2 town left with 4 coven?
Deuputy shoots coven
Prosecutor prosecutes
Prosecutor prosecues
2 townies vote out last coven
Town Wins
Honsestly ngl i like these kinds of complaining/discussion videos
Yes i agree but one of the mayor flaws is that that power can easily back fire lets say marshal kills idk the jailor trickster and monarch thats 2 tpow + 1 unhealthy role down just for 1 insta comfirm and lets say deputy shoots unrevealed mayor thats 2 of the insta comfs down now pros can accidentally get jest then get a poor doom whats the thing there? town litterally lost all insta comfirms but socialite it can backfire (It mostly doesnt tho)
This is why I like watching BetterTOS2 and BetterTOS1, because they know how to attempt to balance things out. For instance, everyone already knows if Marshal goes in the game then Judge has to ve in the game too. Auditor and Star counters all day ability towns really well. These devs just honestly need to coordinate with the modders, then there can be better balancing, hopefully stopping the power creep.
Aye, and depending on the gamemode, the "insta-confirm" player might not even be confirmed! They could be a Jackal recruit, they could be one of the two Town Traitors (because DTT is way too goddamn popular), they could be an Evil that got turned into that role via Cursed Soul, and hell, Vampires are a possibility in TAA! And if they haven't hit the confirm button yet, oh hey Starspawn, now's the time to cast Daybreak!
So yea, BToS2 has definitely done a much better job at handling this problem. As Adagia said in a previous video iirc, Marshal is great news - it's a demonstration of the developers reaching out and cooperating with the modding community, HOWEVER they didn't also add the Neutral Pariah roles that counterbalance the Marshal, leaving them in a... *problematic...* state.
The interesting thing about BetterTOS2 is that in many games, the pattern is flipped around: Where the Town is now the informed minority, and the Evils are the uninformed majority.
how do you think btos2 deals with this problem?
Judge, Rit, Conjurer
Marshal kills 3 evils with one button? Oh wait... that's 3 town courted
Socialite? Getting reworked
Deputy? Unique until reworked
Jailor? Needs to blend in/get a coroner claimswap
Mayor? Nuked/guessed/courted
Pros? Guessed, only one kill per day
And if Tpow claims at all, then conj/judge
Monarch/Vigi can get claim stolen, ex tt mode
And Auditor/Starspawn can prevent reveals
Help my change
Only 2 of these roles with confirms yourselves buttons max.
Also kill power needs to be rolled back.
This isn’t social deduction. This is gambling based on kill power
how to throw game as a trickster???
Trick a confirmed Vigilante.
Call for TP/LO on you and trick a werewolf to your home.
I stopped playing when the patch containing the Marshal dropped. I was already disappointed with the increase in killing power among all the factions, and Marshal broke the camel's back. I primarily follow the game through RUclips videos of Ranked play.....which barely exist now. Seems the tiny community of TOS2 splintered further because a mod called Better TOS2 dropped with more crazy roles.
Simple solution. *20 Player lobbies of Tos2*
This would require a complete rebalance of the entire game.