MADE IN ENGLAND & USA | DOES THE COUNTRY OF ORIGIN MATTER?
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2023
- In this video your enigmatic host discusses a question from a viewer about the prestige associated with the country of origin of men's style products.
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When I got my Barbour jacket I was surprised to see hidden under a fold in the collar the tag 'made in Bulgaria'. That kind of pissed me off but I just said 'fool me once, shame on me'. I inspected every seam just t see if I could find a flaw so might return it. It was perfectly made with no flaws, no Englishman could have done more. I hope the factory in Bulgaria is treating their employees well.
Saint Crispin and Eton are made in Roumania yet they are some of the best shows and shirts made.
Some countries the made in label depends on the % of it assembled in that country.
100% made in England, made in Scotland or made in the UK is something I always look and hope for. After that, clothing or footwear made in Japan, USA, Spain, Italy or Portugal carry a lot of sway in my purchases.
Funfact: „ Made in Germany“ was introduced 1887 in the UK that people avoid german products.. later it became the signature for highly skilled craftsmanship and quality..known worldwide..
I always try to buy local (USA) first. I do have a few items made in England and other European countries, but I try to support the local manufacturers to help them stay in business as much as possible.
Thank you for this Ash. For me it is not so much the country of origin but the ethics around the manufacturing. If a company looks after its workers, including its supply chain, the environment and pays its taxes I will buy. If I can’t research this I will think twice and look for an alternative. In the UK we have “certified B companies” that I try to support. Currently I am trying to shake off Amazon. It’s not easy though!
The irony of using Church’s shoes as an example given that they are now foreign owned and their quality since the take over has fallen terribly
I have a number of Church's shoes before Prada They were purchased in Chicago many years ago from a Church's store in Chicago. Honestly, I did not really care that they were made in England. I simply liked them and the shop owner and employees were wonderful to me. I once asked Lands End; why don't you just sell clothing made in America? I thought that would be a great selling point. No, they said, too impractical. Markets are worldwide now I guess. Nikon was a Japanese company. They moved production out of Japan. Nothing I can do about that either.
Ash, to continue with this theme, please go to Hawick in the Scottish borders and have a tour around the Johnston's of Elgin mill. It will explain why Scottish Cashmere is both expensive and the best.
Another factor for buying from your own country is knowing that you're supporting the jobs in your own country.
All things being equal that's why I do it.
👍👍👍
hear hear.... and in shoe making, the UK makes have really tuned the business rather well.
@@jonstern7511 I used to think like that, then I noticed how much I bought that was made in china. Buying something from my country allows me to support my neighbors
The reason clothes made in italy, us, england, etc are more expensive is not necessarily because they are made better or made from better materials. It's because of minimum wage and labor laws. They cost way more to make. I sell hundreds of thousands of dollars in clothing a year from all over the globe.
They are also cheaper due to some countries not insisting on "clean" or safe production techniques, which impacts us all eventually.
That’s why they must produce goods of higher quality to justify the difference in price
Well done! Ethics and sustainability is key, Personally, I prefer Tricker's.
There's an important aspect that you didn't mention and that is that "made in" labels can be misleading depending on the rules and regulations of the country. I don't know the specifics for Made in England for example but it could be that they make a product for 95% in India, ship it to England, do the last 5% there and are allowed to label it as "Made in England". For some countries this is the case.
I love your take on your closing. You acknowledge the reality of the spending capability of your audience and without being forceful about it, you also made your point on the ethics of the people behind the manufacturing the products.
I was a bit skeptical on loake but your video assured I can trust this brand. I guess I’ll save up for their 1880 collection and hope they do Black Friday.
it's important to me. depends what the product is and the reputation the country has for making the product. you buy high-quality Elieko weight plates, I want them to have been made in Sweden. Samurai Sword - it's gotta be made in Japan. Smith & Wesson .44 magnum "made in America" ... You're basically buying into a culture as well.
I agree. The value and quality are often noticeable, in addition to the ethical issues you’ve noted. I own a pair of Sperry boat shoes that are handmade in Maine USA. They were 3 times the price of the boat shoes made in East Asia, but they are at least 6 times the quality. Made with horween leather, beautifully stitched and with a vibram sole, there is no comparison. Great vid Ash.
Brit and US Citizen here living in the pizza oven of Phoenix. I also try to buy local but it has been increasingly difficutl to find products that are "Made in the USA" or "Made in England". For clothing I always look for timeless "style", high quality and the "cost per wear" economics. The fashion industry is well known for being a major polluter and exploiter so for me (and my wife) saving up to purchase quality and durability fits with who we are. We've done the same thing with furniture. We never buy what we refer to as "filler furniture" designed and built on the cheap and destined for the dumpster after a short service life.
Good discussion. Thanks for putting this together
Thank you for this video. All consumers should watch this. People who are treated well by a manufacturer is a priority.
But there is no evidence Loake Is mistreating, underpaying or cutting corners
Provenance matters to me, but the fair treatment of workers is more important. Currently, that is a problem not only overseas, but here in the U.K.
Surely "treatment" is a subjective viewpoint unless specific examples can be given
Yank schoolteacher here. I hope to someday buy more goods made here in the states, but my budget isn’t particularly high. That said, I’ve found some fantastic garments (particularly some suits and jackets) second hand. Often with a Union label. Obviously my money didn’t go to those workers, but there’s a sense of pride in ownership. The craftsmanship is impressive and I feel like I’m wearing a piece of American history. As always, solid video Ash!
Some of the highest quality clothing can be found in thrift stores. Prices are so low anybody can dress with class for almost nothing, even with a trip to the tailor.
Well said that chap. As an English and a proud Brit i always try to buy British first, whenever the quality is comparable to anything from overseas. This is particularly important in the traditional blue-collar industries that employ large numbers. Our car industry has suffered for over 50 years with bad management and/or labour relations but there are still good manufacturers out there. I used to live at Castle Bromwich which is near to the Jaguar car bodies plant and my ambition is to buy a Jaguar F-Type when funds permit !
I’m rather surprised that I like this channel so much. I never considered myself a chap or gentleman until now. Thank you for nudging me towards civility and looking deeper into my history and traditions so that I can share them with my son and future generations. Being a gentleman will never go out of style. Thank you for helping me to remember that.
Great to hear!
Ash As you may know ive been on a personal quest to hunt down "Made in UK" items, its been a very interesting journey and with a little time and effort the results are amazing and much more out there, than you may think And every time you you make a purchase, it makes a small business owner happy, rather then paying a CEO to fly to china to improve his dividend rewards
Great Video, Ash!
For me, I don't mind where things are made as long as I know that they are of high quality and that the people making them have fair working conditions.
I know that there are definitely fantastic products made in countries infamously known for sweatshop labour, the problem is that I just don't know about them.
My footwear, jackets, jeans (I'm 44) and other staples are made in the USA, UK, Europe, Australia etc - these I know will last for years to decades and come with heritage and craftmanship.
Items like underwear, which need to be replaced every year or so, I buy from a company called Bhumi which are organic cotton and ethically made in India.
Every year? I turn mine inside out every 6 months.
@@douglasdietz7503it depends on how many pairs you have.
Educational content. Interesting! Kudos Ash
Very interesting episode. Thanks!
Very insightful.
In my opinion, it depends on which country and craft you're referring to. In shoemaking, Acme and Yearn are Chinese shoemakers who make a shoe, inspired by Northampton, make a very beautiful and comfortable shoe. So while it's not on par with a John Lobb or George Cleverley, they're very good value for money and the gap isn't as wide as it used to be.
In tailoring, Thailand is known as a minefield and probably deserves a whole video of its own. Quite a few of them sell their services as bespoke and seem to incorporate a basted fitting. However, the suit post-delivery seems to leave a lot to be desired in terms of fit and a few aesthetic details. They also pride themselves as someone who can make a suit within a week, so I can't help but thiink that shortcuts would've been taken to meet the time constraint.
For me, it is not necessarily about quality. Quality can happen all over the world. It is about whether the people who produced the goods were paid a fair wage and whether the people in my own country are losing jobs because people are being taken advantage of in other countries. For the most part, I can feel good about purchasing something from the US or UK knowing that the workers were fairly compensated.
Hi Ash, wonderful and thoughtful video, as always.
I’m not sure I agree with you as for the assumption that Indian workforce is exploited and therefore products have an invisible “unethical warning” embroidered on them as a mark of Cain.
Economies are different and what we may see as a very poor hourly wage, may actually be a very descent and even generous wage for the average Indian worker - just because of the difference in value-money ratio between the two countries and societies.
Technically, your English allegedly well paid Loake employee can be a miserable sad person who is very unhappy because his boss constantly yells at him (unfortunately there’s no regulation against that) and his wife is leaving him - we haven’t a clue.
The fact he gets enough money for English rent, doesn’t necessarily make his job better or the products worthier.
I believe a better question is one examining mass production: how many shoes does the Indian factory produce and how many does the English one?
If an English employee is given more time than an Indian employee to work on a single pair of shoes (which in turn is sold for a higher sum), chances are that pair is more carefully crafted.
Anyway, that’s my two cents on this matter.
Valid point!
I was surprised by how low Indian wages are. We employ graduates in the big cities (who live middle class lifestyles there) for $10k per year. We employ people doing equivalent jobs in London and NYC for 70-80k p.a!
I don’t think people realise just how different the wage scale/ cost of living is between US/UK and India.
@@MattM-ce3qe Exactly so. And not that there aren’t any sweatshops in India, of course there are.
But it’s a different culture with different working climate and work ethic. I do believe that the attempt to force unanimous moral grounds is wrong and is more harmful than useful.
After all, there’s a reason that the road to hell is paved with good intentions…
Great video Ash. One of your best yet. It will always be a conundrum regarding affordability and ethics, I'm afraid.
On a related note I tend to buy my woollens from Ireland where I know the quality of wool and finish are high. I also go for Spanish leather for my wallet and satchel. I love Italian shoes but I find them narrow in fit so usually plump for the English shoe for a slightly wider fit with top quality finish. I think it does pay to be aware of differences in country of origin debate.
Provenance matters… Well stated and presented sir. Salut!
Strange thing. I dress like a scarecrow and yet I appreciate style, quality and personal grooming. I think you are showing me what I could have been if cruel circumstance hadn't taken over my life.
An excellent and thought provoking video Ash, thank you. The conversation had particular relevance to me as being a Loake customer for about 10 years now up until this year I had always purchased from their 1880 range. I threw the dice in January and bought a pair of boots from their Design range at half the retail price in their winter sale. Overall I am happy with the purchase and can't say they is any significant difference in quality when compared with my other footwear from 1880. However there has been a nagging voice in my head ever since over the ethical considerations.
As a consequence I think I will stick to their 1880 range in future. There's a lot to be said for a clear conscience! Also I would just add that I think the 1880 range is much more traditional and conservative than the other designs which are tending towards the avant-garde. If I wanted that I'd go to Barkers. All the best!
I live in Japan. I buy from artisans around the world, including Japan and England, where I have visited the workshop and talked to artisans and for things made with attention to detail, and with welfare of employees are priority.
Was saddened by Thomas Pink being bought out by LVMH and let go. Similar story for Hunter which is now made in China. Artisan owned is very important for me than to pay for a british brand owned by a big house which in turn is owned by someone with a lot of capital, but without any sense of taste, like Qatari Sovereign Wealth Fund whose purpose is to extract profit.
I 100% agree with you for not buying a Loake not made in England. India for them in outsourcing.
But I buy things from Indian artisans such as Varnam summer shirts in Madras, who source their material from local artisans and tailor their shirts in-house.
Before watching the video, yes it matters. I don't mean necessarily the quality (British Leyland?; Pacers?) but the fact that a country should have its own manufacturing capacity and strong manufacturing sector.
Give your fellow citizens work, keep the value in your own country, if you can.
I have a tight budget but decided a few weeks ago to save for the higher tier products made in England. Will be a sound investment in the long run and better quality.
You have created another thoughtful video, Ash. I recently had an experience that illustrates that businesses are sometimes unclear regarding the nation of origin for their products. I recently ordered and received a wristwatch made by Smiths which, as you well know, is a well-recognized UK watch brand. The brand is now owned by Time Factors, which itself is operated in England. The particular model I purchased is the “Commando”, which is an homage to a Rolex watch of the same name, sold only in America during the 1960’s. I am very pleased with the quality of this piece. It is well finished and nicely designed, for the very reasonable price of £345. However, although the watch states “Great Britain” on its dial, I noticed that the origin of the actual shipment to me was China. So, I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I cannot expect that such a nice watch could be produced in the UK for only £345. On the other hand, I feel that consumers should be clearly told of the nation of origin. Overall, I am not unhappy with my purchase, and plan to purchase another Smiths watch. On the other hand, I would have happily paid more for a watch actually made in the UK, as I will do with my next pair of shoes. I would be most interested in your doing a review of Smiths watches, Ash, to obtain your perspective regarding their value for money. Thank you./Warren (from New England)
100% accurate Ash, an unhappy work force that does a job for simply money, and a relatively small remuneration, is not ever going to produce anything that a highly skilled set of employees that love their job, has a family history possibly in the trade and a reputation to live up to ever will.
What about when high wages are the result of unionisation rather than skill?
Then that's a different conversation altogether. @@teenoso4069
Fantastic video Ash. All my "real shoes" were made in Northampton(shire) and restored and refined here in Wales. I like to think if I buy good repairable UK shoes, the chap who sold them to me buys another new pair from our fellows in the middle of the country and keeps the circulation going wasting as little resources as possible. I get great pleasure bringing a pair of shoes back to sometimes, better than new. Our friends from other countries can make things as good and often better than we can. We threw away industry here and tried/try to rely on service sector jobs mostly, but I love the fact my shoes were made in the historic (western)world epicentre of shoe making and the typical styles they produce look great, in my opinion. I hope the people who make shoes for Loake in India have a good life, I'm sure they are as skilled as any here.
You are absolutely right
I have a couple pairs of PNW (Pacific Northwest) work boots made in Washington State. They are made by White’s but similar models are offered by JK and Nick’s; there are RUclips videos that cover all three manufacturers. Thick leather and multiple layers of leather underfoot are featured. I think you and the English shoe companies would appreciate these materials as well as the handwork.
Hopefully, I’ll be in London by the end of the year to stay at one of the clubs on Pall Mall as well as for appointments with several tailors.
Many products we think of as made in England are no longer made here. I think of Parker pens who apparently moved their manufacturing from Newhaven to Nantes in 2009. They once made wonderful fountain pens, but sadly no more. The last one I bought, the ink wouldn't even flow. I have switched to Pelikan out of Germany. Fine quality and the ink flows readily.
Interesting challenge that you put out. And as I am in New Zealand I feel differently about the issues of British Colonialism and manufacture. I also approach this issue as an economist and (previously) ceo of a chamber of commerce.
Firstly the issues of international trade are not based just on cheaper labour - but rather whether the ratio of cost of producing cars to cost of producing shoes. But what you are challenging is the entire cost of manufacturing in western world compared to third world. The reality is that the path to higher incomes is through manufacturing - American got rich manufacturing cars but now that is some other nations turn and America is producing higher value items. In New Zealand I spoke to a NZ-tap manufacturer - he said that when he is after short run production to test a new product or service a niche that was done in NZ but when he wanted to produce a million shower heads that he had developed the design through NZ production he went to China. Similarly an air conditioning manufacturer told me that he can't compete with coke machines or car units but he has a good business on air conditioning on frigates because they are all different and require skilled manufacturers.
Having travelled through India I think they are going through the stages of growth that England went through a century ago and that will lead to their economic surety. I know that the adherence to 'capitalism' in China has lifted 1 billion people out of poverty - the greatest social change the world has known.
One observation on your tour of Trickers - I thought the production looked like the way that Britain used to produce Triumph motorcycles. Britain owned that industry and everyone rode a Triumph (Elvis gave them away as gifts). Then Japan started producing quality in bulk and that important British industry died. I think that in economics it is not sentimentality that saves an industry - but positioning it in its competitive niche.
I heard a tale about Cary Grant. Mr. Grant had a certain bespoke Saville Row shirt that he was attached to with a level of wear and comfort perfect for him. He commissioned a tailor in Hong Kong to make him an exact duplicate of that shirt. The result was indiscernible from the original down to the amount of wear on the cuffs and collar. Even the pattern on the buttons was the same. Know what you want, it's out there.
Savile Row is for suits. Shirts are in Jermyn Street, and the Piccadilly Arcade.
Right, so the story goes. Please excuse my spelling. Thank you.
You're articulating many thoughts that I've had for some time now.
It certainly has value to me. I’m from Denmark and buy foremost from ‘legacy’ brands here, but it’s all about quality. I love many British brands as well 🇬🇧👌🏼
Quality as in sustainability, longevity and design 👌🏼
Another way to look at it is that even though they're being paid less than workers in the UK, Loake factory workers in India probably still get paid more and enjoy better working conditions than the average Indian worker. At least I would hope that's the case...
I couldn’t care where the swag is knocked up , as long as the quality justifies their price point . Naturally I would prefer the products to be manufactured here to a an excellent standard in the UK. , but in the world today we have to be more realistic & pragmatic in our choices & only be prepared to pay extra for what it’s worth to us as an individual . 👍
I own Loake Bedale in tan and Loake Fisher in black both are from the 1880 range. Prior to that I would spend circa £65 on Clarks. I am not wealthy so the Loakes are the highest priced in my collection. However, I do not class them as expensive as they are by far the best value. Let me explain why. They fit perfectly and are so comfortable. They fit me and support me like no other footwear. They look amazing, a million dollars. Not only do I love the look, but I always get complimented at work "wow, nice boots", "your boots are very nice indeed". The materials and build quality are first class. Excellence incarnate. So they make me feel and look my best. The icing on the cakes is I know they are made in England, Northampton and I am proud of England my little but mighty country.
Bravo sir!
watching this video from INDIA ( Kerala ) . I have been watching your videos regularly and thank you Ash .
Glad you like them!
it used to mean something to be made in England, but as my dad said to me in the 1970's "made in England by a Pakistani immigrant"
Excellent episode, sir! I think for myself, it depends on the product I'm purchasing. I live in the USA, State of Tennessee. If I were to purchase an automobile that was made in the USA, it would be GM/Chevy, not Ford or Dodge, but at this time, I currently drive a Mazda SUV, made in Japan. Also, if I buy any suits, dress clothes, etc. I utilize my local tailor and men's shop in my local town. My tailor has my measurements, and we go through periodic adjustments, I receive excellent service, which, to me, is worth the higher cost premium. I trust my tailor. He has never steered me wrong when it comes to appropriate attire. As for grooming products, I'm currently using Proraso Shave cream, which I enjoy, and I believe it's made in Italy, if I'm not mistaken. Once again, I enjoy your channel, and I thank you for the content and your time and effort in producing it. One more note, my son is currently beginning his studies for his Masters degree in World Government and Economics at the University of Manchester, in England. He is one of 28 students selected worldwide for this program, and from what my son has told me, the sole American. Yes, I'm proud of him, but I only bring it up to you because he's in England now and will be there until approximately November 2024. My apologies for the long message, and once again, thanks for your time.
He will enjoy Manchester, it is culturally interesting and part of the engine room of the UK economy. Also a good place if he enjoys football!
@@TheChapsGuide, Jacob, my son, is a huge Manchester United fan. Just like how I'm a big fan of the Tennessee Volunteers. Also, thank you for the information on Manchester itself, I appreciate it.
One thing to consider regarding India is that they impose high tariffs on imported items; placing them outside the reach of most people. Another thing to consider is that the size of the middle class in India is estimated at 430 million people. In order to fully tap into that huge market, a company must then open a factory in India and employ the local populace (the goal of these tariffs in the first place). Since Loake didn't shutter their Northamptonshre factory and relocate their entire operation offshore it indicates they still find value in the Made in England label. I wouldn't be surprised to find that some of the profits of the Indian operation are used to subsidize the Kettering facility so that they can continue to offer shoes, like those in the 1880 line, for those with the wherewithal to afford them.
I don't have a problem with global manufacturing except with that large communist dictatorship which employs slave labor, steals intellectual property and generally just churns out rubbish.
I generally avoid buying things that come directly from China. But of course there are also many products that are assembled in Europe but also have parts from China. What I find extremely annoying is that English companies such as Burberry also sell cheap products made in China at far too high a price. But straight to the point: I will always prefer to buy clothes from England.
I know from experience that some UK Hifi manufacturers source their components and chassis from China and have them assembled in the UK. The reason for this is that costs from UK based companies are prohibitively expensive or not available at all. The reason for UK assembly is not to trick customers it’s to thwart counterfeiters and quality control. If left to assemble products, unchecked, amazingly, a similar product gets made for a cheaper price up the road. Even when parts are sourced from China, things have to be checked. An example was that led colours had changed from ones agreed. The answer was, they’re cheaper, Sir. Ha
I always check the country of origin and the material tag when considering clothing I like. Anything made in Bangladesh is immediately disqualified.
I used to by Tilley hats that were made in Canada. I even bought their Canadian made Covid masks to support the workers. Post Covid, the majority of their hats are made in China. Tilley says they are made to exacting standards. But the price certainly doesn’t reflect a cheaper place of manufacture. When it comes time for another new hat I’m not sure what I’ll do.
I bought a Tilley T5 hat because they were made in Canada. It's sad to hear that manufacturing has moved overseas, and of course the price has stayed the same.
@@jt1559 some of the T5 styles in certain colors are about the only ones still made in Canada. I’m partial to the Airflo models.
Hi Ash, living in the modern world affords today's consumer availability never seen in the past. Therefore, a variety of products and their level of heritage and quality will vary across the spectrum. The most important factor is educating one's self to know exactly what they desire in what they are acquiring and why. To officianados that insist on the highest quality of kit, a complete grasp of the subject is necessary. Look, what ever one wants is out there. The question is whether or not one is willing to find it. For example if a person wants a watch with the word Rolex on it, they may not care if it isn't made in Switzerland. It all depends on ones understanding of what they want and why. Whatever it is can be found in today's world. Cheers.
In the sartorial arena many very fine products are made by artisanal craftsmen in Paris and Italy, neither of which featured in your assessment. Do you have any views on these European artisan producers?
I would say that the same discussion applied equally to those locations. I merely focused on the UK, as it is my own country of origin. But France, Italy and Germany have the same situation.
In a recent trip to Florence, Italy a local leather shop owner said that the leather goods sold by street cart vendors were actually mass produced in Italy by Chinese immigrants. So even though “Made in Italy”, much lower quality.
Thanks Ash, together we can Make America and England Great Again.
“Made in“ and the psychology behind it could be a field of study all on its own! I think there is a spectrum of emotions behind it as made in China can elicit one emotion versus made in Switzerland. Obviously it’s dependent on the individual as well as product. Without politicizing this I almost think it’s a conservative viewpoint (I mean as in holding on to traditional values, which I agree with). “Made in” absolutely has value and weight to this chap🏴🇮🇹🇩🇪🇺🇸🇨🇦🏴🇨🇭
I'm old enough to remember when people here in the UK used to sneer at "made in Japan" products. In their minds those words were code for cheaply and shoddily made products. I doubt you'd find many people expressing those sentiments today.
There was a time (in the late 1940s through late 1950s) when Japanese factories struggled with destroyed machinery and infrastructure, and a workforce that was recovering from the losses of WWII. They probably DID have to make (and export) cheap products in order to accumulate the capital and expertise that allowed Japan to become the manufacturing and technical powerhouse it is today.
So: I don't have general ethical qualms about buying products made in low-wage countries. India has minimum-wage laws, and the cost of living is generally a lot lower there than it is in Britain. As long as the quality is good, and the workers are not exposed to dangerous or exploitive conditions, then I'm happy to have the option.
Regarding Loake at 7:52 - I have heard from cobblers & seen on RUclips how Loake shoes from Loake Shoemakers range (inc. their Made in England shoes) and Loake L1 etc do indeed have cheaper components. The heel stacks on 1880 shoes I believe are better leather whereas on Shoemakers & L1 they are fibreboard. The leather is typically "high shine" i.e. corrected grain which does not age well. I should say that Loake Shoemakers shoes made in England include some very classic models like the Loake Royals (longwing brogues), 771s (plain toe derbies), Brightons (fringed tassel loafers) - all popular in the Mod & Skinhead scenes in the UK and across the world. However I don't know to what extent they are "made" in England, or clicked in India & simply finished in England. I don't know if Loake 1880 shoes have leather heel counters & toe stiffeners but I know Shoemakers & L1 use a kind of thermoplastic. I should add finally re: leather that L1 shoes seem to age worse than Shoemakers shoes Made in England, like the L1 ages worse than a 771 or Royal, and I don't know if that's just better quality high shine leather being reserved for flagship products. If you look at an old second hand L1 shoe the creasing and cracking can be very bad whereas 771s and Royals last for years & years.
That’s a really great topic. My suits and jackets are only RL Purple. Italian made. I know.. I know. But the attention to detail, the finish, the quality is superb. My shoes are either Loake or Cheaney. Florsheim are now made in India. The quality is now 4/10.
Interesting video. I am dealing with this issue right now. I want to buy some high quality brogues and I discovered that there is a Canadian company called Hartt who have been in business for well over 100 years and make seemingly good quality, goodyear welted shoes. The price point is a bit high, but the idea of supporting a Canadian manufacturer (I am Canadian) is extremely appealing and worth the cost to me. The problem is that they have a rather limited range of products and the colour of their brown brogues is not really what I’m looking for (I would prefer more of an oxblood shade). It’s a bit of a dilemma.
I wonder if I could gradually change the colour through my choice of polish….
You could patina them over time, but it sounds like an imperfect solution - remember - always function over form.
I deliberately try to avoid clothing made in China (or Taiwan ROC... that stands for 'Republic of China') or India and Pakistan NOT because the product is sub-standard (which many times it is), but because of sweat shops, child labor, or (especially clothing) the materials used which could contain questionable and sometimes dangerous chemicals used in the processing. China is particularly NOT forth coming on where they obtain leather either... and dogs to me are NOT meat & hide livestock sources, but family. I prefer to seek out quality materials (like TRUE Harris Tweeds and UK/North American sourced lamb or alpaca wool) from reputable producers. Quality can cost more, but I prefer it.
There are some places with ethical bonafides that make their products in India that I buy from, but only because they have independent certification for fair wages and working conditions. Otherwise, made in India is avoided like the plague.
Crocket and Jones it is then!
If the country of origin matters to the brand and adds margin then it matters. If an in-country supply chain is important to efficiency and control then it matters. If care & concern for in-country jobs is important then it matters. Given the relative wealth of consumers (e.g. here in the U.K.) then such things are generally beyond the consideration of the vast majority because they can’t afford such things. One could argue that a principle is t a principle until it costs you money (Leo Burnett) or that such a thing is a matter for middle class morality (George Bernard Shaw) but ultimately I suppose it’s a canard, matters to some and doesn’t matter to others.
To be direct as I know you won't duck a question. Is it more ethical to cease buying Loake as they make some products in India (and you haven't presented firm evidence that Loake is doing anything wrong) , but are happy to purchase Rolex made in Switzerland with a higher GDP per capita than the UK, opaque financial reporting standards and a more tenuous connection to the UK? India has a long history with the UK. I recall a conversation, I had with an Indian national some 25-years ago re low wages. He said, our jobs depend on you. If you stop buying we won't have jobs. Ethics is a subjective lens
I'm here in California, USA. ---------- I might sound irrational, but I would automatically love a product if it had the title' Made in England'. Made in India might be the same quality with a lower price, but I'm willing to spend more for the England title.
Nowadays most of big brands have shifted all the manufacturing to China and other Asian countries. So I make sure I buy them made in the country where it is designed as well. It gives me a good feeling. So I could buy a quality Asian product designed and made in Asia for example Japanese guitar made and designed in Japan but I wouldn't buy for ex an IPhone made in China but designed in USA. Same with clothes. Prime ex among plenty is Nike all made in swear shops in China, Indonesia, Mexico. Sadly same goes for big brands like Gucci and others. Even LV is not made in France but in China.
Many companies don't state anymore "made in" but "made by" which means outsourced. So watch out if you see anywhere" made by".
I highly doubt that the Indian employees who work for Loake are anything other than happy. When the cost of living is dramatically cheaper, of course the wages will be cheaper and therefore the product can be sold to the consumer at a cheaper price.
I would agree to buy local if possible, as not every western countries make Goodyear welted shoes _(I don't thing New Zealand makes shoes or just glued)!_
I rather buy British/EU made 99% of the time! I do have a pair of whole cut Oxford _(made in China)_ with metal in the sole - *amazing!*
Hi Ash. I’m a very big advocate of companies who invest into English/British manufacturing and am fortunate that I can afford, within reason, to purchase a number of English made products. I’ve been following you for a while now and enjoy the content. I know you like your watches, as I do, but have wondered for a while why you don’t concentrate more on British watch companies. Bremont, as an example, have invested very heavily into English manufacture (I own 2 of their watches myself). I would really like for you to give your thoughts on English watch companies that invest in English manufacture (so, not the Christopher Wards of this world who only have offices here and manufacture abroad). Maybe a visit to ‘The Wing’ and a chat with the English brothers at Bremont would make an interesting video. I think, due to your interest in watches, English quality and the military, this would be something that could appeal to you and make good content for the channel.
There are only a few Brit companies that really have Brit credentials, one of which is Bremont. The problem is that I find Bremont a little devoid of character, often leaning very heavily into the military angle to gain credibility. I also think they are overpriced in the current market and really do not hold up well, when compared to Tudor and even Longines as regards quality - despite being priced above those brands for the most part.
But, I remain open to change and look forward to their next offering with a very open mind!
@@TheChapsGuide Thanks for the reply, Ash. I agree that there are only a handful of companies with proper Brit credentials. I do appreciate that Bremont can be very divisive within the watch community. For what it's worth I think, quality wise, my Bremonts are a step above my Tudors and on par with my Zenith El Primero. Retail pricing is high, admitted, but as more pieces get the ENG movements maybe that could compensate a little? Also, I paid 40% off retail for both mine, bringing them around Tudor prices. I also don't mind paying a little more to support British manufacture - demonstrated by also owning a Pinion as I like what Piers does. I like what the guys at Zero West are currently doing, also, and can see me adding one to the collection very soon. I dream of one day being able to afford to have Roger Smith make me a watch - a dream that, in reality, will never happen. Keep an eye out on 24th October for Bremonts new dive watch collection, being unveiled at their Manchester boutique.
I personally avoid Loake L1 grade shoes. I believe the leather quality and construction is not to the standard I'm happy with. That said, your wallet will dictate: Loake L1 is Goodyear welted and better than going to Next or Top Man et al to buy shoes!
Once you've had a Loake 1880 or an Alfred Sargent shoe, you really can't go back to a lower tier.
Ash: have you considered looking to other shoe manufacturers such as Carlos Santos or Meermin?
Tony
Cutlery made in England, cowboy boots made in the USA, it depends. I do not do to an Italian restaurant for Indian food.
It is man “ you” facture, not man “ah” facture. I have been noting where in the U.K. the vowels are switched in this word for some time because I am a boring well dressed man but this is the first time for a Welshman.
Yes ! Fred Perry made in England fantastic ! La coste made i France and very sad to me Adidas made in France
Even worse are goods made by a foreign company that is owned in that foreign country, with no UK or US supervision and standards. Some countries have no history of business ethics and will surreptitiously use substandard materials.
For some things, I wish we had more English goods, shoes and tailoring coming immediately to mind.
Well, I try to avoid goods designed and made in some countries, mainly because I know they’ll be poor quality and value for money, and the workers who made them, and the local environment are likely to have been exploited. I think that certain countries of origin should signify better quality and value for money - certainly Germany, Japan, Sweden, Italy, Switzerland, the UK, and for certain things, USA are countries of origin I tend to look out for. The get around these days is for some goods to have a label saying ‘designed in…….’ - my ‘Italian’ and ‘English’ bikes have those labels on them - they were both most likely manufactured in Taiwan. Nothing wrong with that - they would have been manufactured to the standards set out in the agreement with the brand they are producing for - and they are both good quality products. So, I go on reviews(RUclips is great for these), recommendations and the good old ‘feel the quality’ before I purchase items. And always remember - you only get what you pay for! (P.s. what does annoy me is the corruption of the Union Jack on foreign made items - how can a Chinese car manufacturer (MG) get away with trading off MG’s history for instance?)
Any recommendations for wool/cashmere overcoats made in England?
Honestly - I would go pre-owned and aim for a classic by a brand like Crombie or other heritage brand. Otherwise, seek out Brook Taverner for mid-priced garments, or even higher level manufacturers if you have the funds.
And always - avoid synthetics, only go for wool, cashemere!
Interesting topic. E.g. my old BMW broke because of parts being manufactured outside of Germany and EU. While these cars were manufactured in Germany, they used to be reliable. But does this mean that e.g. Czech Rep is not able to work properly? No! In this case here they are underpaid and lack proper materials. I think that craftsmenship and pride matter in regards of high quality. But this does require a fair treatment and payment. Because of globalization, the term Made in X does not guarantee anything anymore. My thesis: if local jobs with proper payment offer stability, this could boost both the quality and thus the brands and the sales. I am no expert. But this my opinion.
If everyone supports their own country and says their products are the best then it's a moot point.
Maybe years ago certain countries had specialities but these days manufacturing quality in all countries is very much on a par I think.
I always check on the country of origin. If it's made in Vietnam, India, China, Bangladesh etc. it immediately is disqualified. The only reason why these items are made there, is the level of wages, not the quality. For every, say, Chinese worker there is a worker in the UK (or any other First World country) being made redundant and on the dole - which we then all have to pay.
We're only shooting ourselves in the foot.
If Loake 200B was made in Australia, as Australia has good ethics, wages are one of the world best _($20+ per hour - unskilled worker)_ would buy a pair?
Some would argue its the pollution is the main problem getting the products, say from Australia to the UK!
If a company goes overseas to take advantage of cheap labour it is going to cut corners in any other way it can whatever it claims.
But there are sweatshops in England producing low quality stuff exploiting workers, often illegal immigrants, so Made in Britain isn’t a guarantee of high quality or ethical practices.
.. more likely since we made our country less attractive to "legal(sic)" immigrants.
A Dove soap made in India is not as good as the one made in Canada. Raw material, tooling, craftsmanship, and packaging do vary. Western manufactured items tend to be better and are priced higher which gets camouflaged due to currency conversions.
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My question is !!! why are things made in the UK or England !!! many years ago thinGS made in England were labeled as MADE IN GREAT BRITIAN were as are great name gone and why Ash? fantastic Video on loakes as always Ash .
Because "Made in the UK" comprises England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland" as opposed to "Made in Great Britain" which comprises only England, Scotland, Wales.
@adrianwalker2833 thankyou very much Adrian
That corporate speak reply from Loake is nauseating. FWIW, I think you let these companies off easy by just citing labor costs and worker protections, when they are but two examples of the overarching reason - avoidance of government rules, oversight, and enforcement. It’s everything from indentured servant wages to powering their plants with fuels banned elsewhere, to zero food storage and safety in the company cafeteria, to discharging their untreated waste directly onto the ground, etc. etc.
As I joke with the Americans, "UK? India? It is all foreign to me" Clearly I enjoy seeing items that are made in Canada, USA, England, Ireland, Norway, etc. Countries where I know has a good culture and standard of living. I see China/India/Vietnam to be copy cats, they are making western goods that were not traditionally part of their culture. Those countries are also much more into the counterfeit markets as well as poor quality. Exceptions go to Vietnam where a lot of quality backpacking goods are made for American companies as well as Taiwan which makes decent quality knives also for American companies such as my Ontario RAT I.
I think that the country of origin matters in terms of quality and design. One cannot compare products made in the US or UK with similar products made in China or Vietnam. Though China steals intellectual property and design (they care not about IP rights) they still do crappy products in terms of product quality and product endurance!
Just one comment: leather is not "finite", as you put it, but renewable and can be produced indefinitely.
I prefer 'Companies' to be British (Or historically British despite current ownership), while being very ignorant of where the product is really made.
I see you had a Mike pence fly on the head moment. Didn't detract from an excellent video though.
If Loake say that the ones made in India are the same standard as the ones made in Northampton, then the fact that the Northamptonians have generations of experience behind them actually amounts to nothing. Very sad. Have to add that I am Northamptonshire born and bred so I am pretty disappointed by this.
Ichigo ichie, Cru Nonpareil, ACME, Meermin, CNES and many others make outstanding shoes that age beautifully, are hand welted and, for the money, definitely provide better value than European shoes (except for Vass which is a European anomaly). The owners are the shoemakers in most of these cases. They reduce costs not through labour exploitation, as you seem to suggest by mentioning ethics, but by not paying extortionate utilities rates, unjustifiably high taxes, criminally high import duties on the raw materials (these countries have EU agreements which enable them to import the best French leather in bulk duty free) and the other corrupt expenses that go hand in hand with dealing with a Tory government. If you talk to these artisans, you will realise that, even at the same labour costs as George Cleverley (a British manufacturer whose owners are also the makers), they save 65-85% of the manufacturing cost by moving abroad and not paying those crippling overheads. Check out those brands, Ash. They will melt your heart and mind as they did mine.
I agree. I own some myself. Unfortunately, this video is not balanced
They out source to make more money no IFS or buts
It amuses me to see how little understanding people have for production. "Made in England" or "Made in USA" means absolutely nothing. It has no proof of quality at all. It all depends on what you are producing. Take knives and axes for example. The best knives and axes are made in Sweden by companies like "Morakniv", "Gränsfors bruk" and "Hultafors Bruk". No "Made in England" or "Made in USA" knife or axe can compete with them. When it comes to leather products and craftmanship, Italy can't be beat in Europe but China is number 1 exporter of leather in the world. That tells you something. It tells you that they have a skill a lot of other countries don't have. If you want Merino wool you don't buy Merino wool from USA. You buy it from Australia.
The "Made in" part has nothing to do with quality. You have to look at the skills of the people that are producing the product. China has best production in the world when it comes to most things. They are without a doubt most skilled. But a lot of people are confused about this and the reason is that most things come from China. Whether they are cheap or expension. They buy the cheap stuff and then say "Oh, China has bad quality". No it doesn't! You just bought something cheap with low quality that has been made to that standard. If a company like Loake says it wants to produce a shoe to a certain standard it can be produced in China and still have amazing quality. The reason is because it's made to a high standard. A British or American can't compete with a skilled Chinese worker.
And the assumption that just becuase it's cheaper to produce something in another country means that the quality is bad or that the worker rights and conditions are bad is just stupid. The reason why it's cheaper is because the entire economy of that country is cheaper. Plenty of you go on vacation to cheaper countries and enjoy yourself then pretend about workers right when buying products.
I agree with this. The problem I have, especially for China, is that what I am exposed to is usually cheap rubbish, and for the actual quality stuff, I have no idea of the brands or manufacturers.
I disagree with your economics. India has a lower cost of living than England and overall a lower standard of living but that does not translate into modern day slavery. India has a lot of of high-tech companies comparable to first world counterparts but they won’t be receiving first world wages necessarily. This is why first world companies offshore, to take advantage of the lower costs of living in developing countries. Working conditions are probably comparable to those found in England, not everywhere certainly but to assume slavery based on the prices of finished goods is ignorant.