came here after Seth’s Tsojcanth review inspired me to incorporate the caverns into my game. This module seems like a great way to kick off a late game Tharizdun-centered adventure with a little modification.
Played this module years ago with a new DM when I was a grad student in Kansas City, MO. I have fond memories of the game play and that DM was masterful at running it.
Probably the biggest disappointment is the lack of any resolution at the black cyst. I had a DM that ran this as a race to unlock Tharizdun or rather keep him in chains at the Black Cyst. Working against agents of Iuz and once the temple was cleared we had this running battle against them that was highlighted by an epic fight at the cusp of the passage down. Imagine my surprise when he gave me the module a couple years later and none of that was present. Tharizdun is a favorite module of mine but mostly a testament to a fantastic DM that took the source and really went wild with it.
Once you get past the highly technical combat encounters, this really reminds me of Conan stories. If the scene was set more visually, combat were more visceral and decisive than technical and continuous, and any cultists (or cultist wannabes) still active, I think it would’ve been a real hit.
Congratulations! I have read this adventure, but it is pretty obscure. Seems like it could have tied better into the Temple of Elemental Evil, instead, but oh well! There's a lot of very strange ideas with old modules, and very little in the way of continuity until FR or Dragonlance... which went a bit too far, becoming (usually) quite linear. Groog sounds like a real adventurer! He would totally be a great ally/henchman if the party can persuade him that food, fun, and treasure are easier and more interesting by going along with them rather than doing what he's doing! Sure are a lot of odd monsters in there. Pretty mean dungeon, but pretty small for all that. For that "look up" sign, I'm surprised there's not a Symbol of some kind to punish them - feels like an act of mercy on GG's part. Most of the treasure in the inner chamber is stuff I would absolutely avoid, or want to destroy! You can't rely on any of the treasures not only not being cursed, but also something that might release some super evil once you remove it.
A Gygaxian masterpiece and tribute to player agency! If the party does in fact gain entrance to the Cyst it can mean only one thing, and so their rewards will be weighted. The only way to really win WG4 is TPK by starvation without ever finding the temple at all. Second place is of course death by rot grubs. 10/10 Great review
I played that module. That wand of force was the most gloriously OP item in the game - you could cast wall of force multiple times per day out of the thing then "re-absorb" the spell at the end of the battle for free. This was back before the spell required concentration.
Congratulations! Another interesting and informative review. A lot of the old TSR products are flawed, but full of period flavor, potential and inspiration. Nice choice for a milestone review.
A couple of months ago I was thinking of this module and began to write up a module that links to Tharizdun and the cult. All set for 1st ed though, I don't think 5th has enough space for yet another demon/God trying to take over the world. I'm very glad to have found this. I owned this module, but was afraid to run it, I don't think I or my players were up for the challenge.
Agree with your assessment. This one never caught my imagination and though I read through it a couple times, I never ran it. I didn't much care for the monsters either. I can see how it could be expanded and changed into something much cooler though.
My campaign has an avatar of Tharizdun as a BBEG, my plan is to throw some more stuff in here but have this be the dungeon. Because even his name has been struck from so many places, the party has to come here just to find any actual valuable information on how to stop his plans.
planning a mostly homebrew 5e campaign where some cultists trying to free Tharizdun form the crux of the plot; definitely going to update and tweak this module for one chapter! Thanks.
I loved this adventure back in the 80s! I was only ever to get one group to play it though - too little time, and other modules always took precedence. This one would be a great one to revamp for 5e, given Tharizdun’s influence in various pieces of current lore...
I appreciate this review and I think you had a lot of valuable insights. However, I don't think I agree that it would benefit from removing the raiders who live in the upper levels. The clash in tones that you refer to I think is intentional and interesting. Remember From Dusk Till Dawn? That movie starts out as a crime caper with two robbers trying to get past the police to Mexico. Then they get to a bar in Mexico, and suddenly it's a movie about fighting off vampires. This reminds me of that. I'd quibble more with some of the specifics, like how hard it is to find the lower floors in the first place, and Gygax's style of punishing traps and overly well-hidden treasure.
That's the cool thing about RPGs - I'm perfectly happy for you to disagree me. I take your points, however, the raiders is not something that I think is executed particularl well and I found the clash in tones jarring. And.. I did take issue with the other points (the traps, treasure and dificulty finding the actual temple) in my review!
@@BudsRPGreview Oh yeah, I was agreeing with you on those points. And I also agree with you that this is one topic where any disagreement can be friendly food for thought. Thanks for replying!
I am working this module into a bigger Adventure to prevent betraying God from coming out. I changed the purpose of the temple though, it is actually a temple of lawful good God being tainted. The lawful good God is 1 of the halves who sacrificed their powers to imprison Tharizdun.
I thought that I've read every single published module for D&D, but I've never seen this before. To be honest, the artwork all seems really familiar, but I definitely don't have this adventure in any form
This module is actually very versatile and with some work can be dropped into different kinds of campaigns or games. A CoC or Masque of the Red Death campaign would be perfect, just replace the upper level humanoids with bandits and such. Any game where a mysterious forgotten temple with an unknowable god would fit could and should be a perfect place for this module.
The way I used the module (though the campaign didn't last long enough to get there) was the final part of an attempt to keep the followers of Tharizdun from releasing him into the world (set in Greyhawk, like the module). I used Tharry as an analog of The Dark One from The Wheel of Time, and even created some of the creatures from that series for AD&D. (The Myrddral where particularly scary, as they should be.) Of course, that meant changing almost everything about the temple, populating it with cultists and beasts of Tharizdun.
When I played this module the GM had to insert an NPC that could find/disarm/explain things. This "cheat" was the only way our party could make any headway with this difficult module.
I remember reading this adventure when it came out. Never played it though. I remember that 1/3 or so of it was the set up for the massive battle at the start. I found this interesting, instead of the big Boss battle at the end it comes first thing. The rest of the adventure seemed to be a long 3rd act in comparison. Can't say I really loved the whole presentation but it seemed alright. I agree that a score of 6/10 is about right.
Don't take this as a negative comment, but when I hear your voice, I can't help but envision Lister from "Red Dwarf" telling me about AD&D. In a way, it's got a really cool visual, like an episode set in an alternate universe, where Lister is a Thief, Cat is a Thief-Acrobat, Kryton is a Fighter with a pacifist streak, and Rimmer thinks he's a Paladin, but he's really just an asshole, and Holly is a Magic-User who is currently a floating head. Or -- Lister is Robin Hood, Cat is Will Scarlet, Kryton is Little John, and Rimmer is Prince John. Holly could be Maid Marion, or Friar Tuck, depending on who is playing Holly at the time. Anyway, nice episode.
Have you tried to run AD&D 1 or 2 with B/X rules? Is it possible to run it straight from the box? I'm wondering because I've bought the Old-School Essentials rules tome and I want to run older adventure models with it :)
@@BudsRPGreview no mate don't do dat. I've got a mate who's 90 who lives in Brompton Ave who's a sculptor. I myself make gravestones. I know Crosby pretty well was in Peter & Pauls graveyard last week.
I think TSR shied away from Tharizdun because of Gygax's "Gord the Rogue" series because it was not published by TSR and much like the 5th chaos god in Games Workshop the IP rights are kind of sketchy. Honestly everything that gygax created TSR seemed to try and distance itself from going so far as to just kill off greyhawk entirely, it was just a looming legal battle that could fall on them so they just avoided it. Mind you I doubt gary could have gotten anything out of TSR and I don't think TSR ever really had that much money to give but I cannot think of any other reason. Pick up the gord the rogue series, dance of demons sometime to get an idea of what gygax wanted to do with other planar beings. As for the module, I don't think gary was ever very good at making modules mostly because he personally didn't use them and was surprised that people wanted them (I picked that bit up from an interview with with one of gary's childhood friends, think that friend was basically adopted by his family but I can't remember his name for the life of me).
I accept 0 criticism of old gygax modules. Light in plot ? Then add some. DMs job is to take the modules and info and craft their own world and adventure. Also look at the time line and backstory. Lot of drama going on behind the scenes there. TSR dropped the ball on this and demonweb pots as well as the climax of nearly every multi module adventure they had going. Mostly due to corporate politics
Ronnie J Dio whether you accept zero criticism of Gygax modules is kind of irrelevant as I am going to criticise them anyway. Also, I am reviewing the module as is - not making suggestions as to what you should do where it fails. I also don’t care about what was going on in the background - I care about what is written on the page.
@@BudsRPGreview but we read this module with 2020 eyes. Its incredible that they cane out when They did and I still think it holds up as all of Gary's work does as supplements to the game. DMs got to take the materials and adapt it to their own campaign. I cant blame Gary for some of his works and for him not finishing many of the projects he started due to being fired and thrown out of his company. Theres a reason were getting reviews in RUclips of nearly 40 year old adventures. Keep em coming !
Of course we read it with 2020 eyes. The scenario does have some great things in it, but seems ultimately pointless... which is kind of the point as the servants of Tharizdun had a long and pointless time in trying to restore him. You may not believe this but I love Gary Gygax. I had the pleasure of meeting him at GenCon 2001 and had my photo taken with him. I still have my autographed Queen of the Spiders and Temple of Elemental Evil - but that doesn't mean you can't be hold a critical opinion of his work. In many ways Lost Temple of Tharizdun was both of it's time and ahead of it's time, and for me it just didn't quite work.
![Diggy Graves - Red Vineyard [Official Lyric Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8Ro085T0mnQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Congratulations, man. And I've never seen his adventure before, so thanks. :-)
Cheers dude!
2 of my favourite OSR guys!
came here after Seth’s Tsojcanth review inspired me to incorporate the caverns into my game. This module seems like a great way to kick off a late game Tharizdun-centered adventure with a little modification.
Back then it was a BIG innovation to have the monsters form a plan and attack in waves that the module actually spelled out for the DM.
Tharizdun. A name my group have not heard in too long.
And long shall they never hear it again.
Played this module years ago with a new DM when I was a grad student in Kansas City, MO. I have fond memories of the game play and that DM was masterful at running it.
I absolutely love this brief era of the surrealist art in dnd. You`re a lucky guy, thank you for sharing this with us!
Probably the biggest disappointment is the lack of any resolution at the black cyst. I had a DM that ran this as a race to unlock Tharizdun or rather keep him in chains at the Black Cyst. Working against agents of Iuz and once the temple was cleared we had this running battle against them that was highlighted by an epic fight at the cusp of the passage down. Imagine my surprise when he gave me the module a couple years later and none of that was present. Tharizdun is a favorite module of mine but mostly a testament to a fantastic DM that took the source and really went wild with it.
I think the lack of a resolution is by design. Tharizdun's priests worked towards nothing and the players essentially mimic that.
Once you get past the highly technical combat encounters, this really reminds me of Conan stories. If the scene was set more visually, combat were more visceral and decisive than technical and continuous, and any cultists (or cultist wannabes) still active, I think it would’ve been a real hit.
You are definitely my favorite reviewer, you actually read the modules and understand them which sadly is rare from read through review channels.
Thanks. I do try.
This was wonderful. You got an excellent voice!
Congrats on reaching 2000 subs mate!
Congratulations!
I have read this adventure, but it is pretty obscure. Seems like it could have tied better into the Temple of Elemental Evil, instead, but oh well! There's a lot of very strange ideas with old modules, and very little in the way of continuity until FR or Dragonlance... which went a bit too far, becoming (usually) quite linear.
Groog sounds like a real adventurer! He would totally be a great ally/henchman if the party can persuade him that food, fun, and treasure are easier and more interesting by going along with them rather than doing what he's doing!
Sure are a lot of odd monsters in there. Pretty mean dungeon, but pretty small for all that.
For that "look up" sign, I'm surprised there's not a Symbol of some kind to punish them - feels like an act of mercy on GG's part.
Most of the treasure in the inner chamber is stuff I would absolutely avoid, or want to destroy! You can't rely on any of the treasures not only not being cursed, but also something that might release some super evil once you remove it.
A Gygaxian masterpiece and tribute to player agency! If the party does in fact gain entrance to the Cyst it can mean only one thing, and so their rewards will be weighted.
The only way to really win WG4 is TPK by starvation without ever finding the temple at all. Second place is of course death by rot grubs.
10/10
Great review
I played that module. That wand of force was the most gloriously OP item in the game - you could cast wall of force multiple times per day out of the thing then "re-absorb" the spell at the end of the battle for free. This was back before the spell required concentration.
Congratulations!
Another interesting and informative review. A lot of the old TSR products are flawed, but full of period flavor, potential and inspiration. Nice choice for a milestone review.
Congrats for hitting 2k!
Man, Gygax put so much detail into this module...
A couple of months ago I was thinking of this module and began to write up a module that links to Tharizdun and the cult. All set for 1st ed though, I don't think 5th has enough space for yet another demon/God trying to take over the world. I'm very glad to have found this. I owned this module, but was afraid to run it, I don't think I or my players were up for the challenge.
Great Video! Thank You!
WG 4 is such a fun and cool adventure. I enjoyed running it!
Glad you enjoy it!
gosh your reviews are so good. bless you. for real!
Glad you like them!
Agree with your assessment. This one never caught my imagination and though I read through it a couple times, I never ran it. I didn't much care for the monsters either. I can see how it could be expanded and changed into something much cooler though.
My campaign has an avatar of Tharizdun as a BBEG, my plan is to throw some more stuff in here but have this be the dungeon. Because even his name has been struck from so many places, the party has to come here just to find any actual valuable information on how to stop his plans.
Great review. Thanks. I recently uploaded maps for this module over at DMs Guild to use with online tabletop tools. Thanks again for the great review.
Subscribed. Well done.
who disliked this? it's thorough as they come
You get used to it.
planning a mostly homebrew 5e campaign where some cultists trying to free Tharizdun form the crux of the plot; definitely going to update and tweak this module for one chapter! Thanks.
I loved this adventure back in the 80s! I was only ever to get one group to play it though - too little time, and other modules always took precedence. This one would be a great one to revamp for 5e, given Tharizdun’s influence in various pieces of current lore...
This is one of my favorite modules.
Congrats Bud! Great choice for a truly retro review!
Cheers mate. They don't often come as retro as the likes of ths!
Great video.
I appreciate this review and I think you had a lot of valuable insights. However, I don't think I agree that it would benefit from removing the raiders who live in the upper levels. The clash in tones that you refer to I think is intentional and interesting. Remember From Dusk Till Dawn? That movie starts out as a crime caper with two robbers trying to get past the police to Mexico. Then they get to a bar in Mexico, and suddenly it's a movie about fighting off vampires. This reminds me of that. I'd quibble more with some of the specifics, like how hard it is to find the lower floors in the first place, and Gygax's style of punishing traps and overly well-hidden treasure.
That's the cool thing about RPGs - I'm perfectly happy for you to disagree me. I take your points, however, the raiders is not something that I think is executed particularl well and I found the clash in tones jarring. And.. I did take issue with the other points (the traps, treasure and dificulty finding the actual temple) in my review!
@@BudsRPGreview Oh yeah, I was agreeing with you on those points. And I also agree with you that this is one topic where any disagreement can be friendly food for thought. Thanks for replying!
I am working this module into a bigger Adventure to prevent betraying God from coming out. I changed the purpose of the temple though, it is actually a temple of lawful good God being tainted. The lawful good God is 1 of the halves who sacrificed their powers to imprison Tharizdun.
I thought that I've read every single published module for D&D, but I've never seen this before. To be honest, the artwork all seems really familiar, but I definitely don't have this adventure in any form
It can be quite hard to get hold of depending on where you are based.
This module is actually very versatile and with some work can be dropped into different kinds of campaigns or games. A CoC or Masque of the Red Death campaign would be perfect, just replace the upper level humanoids with bandits and such. Any game where a mysterious forgotten temple with an unknowable god would fit could and should be a perfect place for this module.
The way I used the module (though the campaign didn't last long enough to get there) was the final part of an attempt to keep the followers of Tharizdun from releasing him into the world (set in Greyhawk, like the module). I used Tharry as an analog of The Dark One from The Wheel of Time, and even created some of the creatures from that series for AD&D. (The Myrddral where particularly scary, as they should be.) Of course, that meant changing almost everything about the temple, populating it with cultists and beasts of Tharizdun.
FWIW, 12 players in AD&D is very doable. I ran four players who had three characters each. In my experience, AD&D runs pretty simple. YMMV. Cheers!
You can drive a car with your feet. That doesn’t mean you should.
When I played this module the GM had to insert an NPC that could find/disarm/explain things. This "cheat" was the only way our party could make any headway with this difficult module.
Kurt Terfloth which kind of back up my criticism - it’s just too esoteric.
Tharizdun was referenced by Gygax in his Gord the Rogue novels, he ended up destroying the world of Greyhawk.
I remember reading this adventure when it came out. Never played it though. I remember that 1/3 or so of it was the set up for the massive battle at the start. I found this interesting, instead of the big Boss battle at the end it comes first thing. The rest of the adventure seemed to be a long 3rd act in comparison. Can't say I really loved the whole presentation but it seemed alright. I agree that a score of 6/10 is about right.
Don't take this as a negative comment, but when I hear your voice, I can't help but envision Lister from "Red Dwarf" telling me about AD&D. In a way, it's got a really cool visual, like an episode set in an alternate universe, where Lister is a Thief, Cat is a Thief-Acrobat, Kryton is a Fighter with a pacifist streak, and Rimmer thinks he's a Paladin, but he's really just an asshole, and Holly is a Magic-User who is currently a floating head.
Or -- Lister is Robin Hood, Cat is Will Scarlet, Kryton is Little John, and Rimmer is Prince John. Holly could be Maid Marion, or Friar Tuck, depending on who is playing Holly at the time.
Anyway, nice episode.
Well, that's hardly surprising as I went to the same school as Craig Charles.
Have you tried to run AD&D 1 or 2 with B/X rules? Is it possible to run it straight from the box?
I'm wondering because I've bought the Old-School Essentials rules tome and I want to run older adventure models with it :)
The difficulty you would have would be the first "fighty" half of the temple. The creepy Tharizdun part would be the easiest bit.
The imagery sounds super interesting. It's disappointing that there isn't really anything at the end.
In a strange way... that's kind of the point.
The actions of the characters are just as futile as the actions of the original cultists.
14:24 the characters can find some measles?
forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Meazel
Where do you play in Liverpool i'm in Southport been playing 40 years d&d RQ etc. We also do an online game Mon & Tuesday.
I'm based in Crosby. If you're on Twitter then follow me as quite a few of the North Western gamers are there.
@@BudsRPGreview no mate don't do dat. I've got a mate who's 90 who lives in Brompton Ave who's a sculptor. I myself make gravestones. I know Crosby pretty well was in Peter & Pauls graveyard last week.
First. Good review
1:40. How long before those weenies pull this for "upsetting" someone...sad. Great review.
Well... they do look Klansmen-esque. I never said I agreed their awful, awful ideas.
Matt Mercer what canI say except you our well come
Wut?
He said this guy needs to be used. Tharizdun is most likely goin the main villain in CR
He said this guy needs to be used. Tharizdun is most likely goin the main villain in CR
Alex The Meme Mage I don’t watch Critical Role so the context was lost on me.
I think TSR shied away from Tharizdun because of Gygax's "Gord the Rogue" series because it was not published by TSR and much like the 5th chaos god in Games Workshop the IP rights are kind of sketchy. Honestly everything that gygax created TSR seemed to try and distance itself from going so far as to just kill off greyhawk entirely, it was just a looming legal battle that could fall on them so they just avoided it. Mind you I doubt gary could have gotten anything out of TSR and I don't think TSR ever really had that much money to give but I cannot think of any other reason. Pick up the gord the rogue series, dance of demons sometime to get an idea of what gygax wanted to do with other planar beings.
As for the module, I don't think gary was ever very good at making modules mostly because he personally didn't use them and was surprised that people wanted them (I picked that bit up from an interview with with one of gary's childhood friends, think that friend was basically adopted by his family but I can't remember his name for the life of me).
You could be right to be fair.
A must have for AD&D 1e is Kellri CDD 1-4
I accept 0 criticism of old gygax modules. Light in plot ? Then add some. DMs job is to take the modules and info and craft their own world and adventure.
Also look at the time line and backstory. Lot of drama going on behind the scenes there. TSR dropped the ball on this and demonweb pots as well as the climax of nearly every multi module adventure they had going. Mostly due to corporate politics
Ronnie J Dio whether you accept zero criticism of Gygax modules is kind of irrelevant as I am going to criticise them anyway. Also, I am reviewing the module as is - not making suggestions as to what you should do where it fails. I also don’t care about what was going on in the background - I care about what is written on the page.
@@BudsRPGreview but we read this module with 2020 eyes. Its incredible that they cane out when They did and I still think it holds up as all of Gary's work does as supplements to the game. DMs got to take the materials and adapt it to their own campaign.
I cant blame Gary for some of his works and for him not finishing many of the projects he started due to being fired and thrown out of his company. Theres a reason were getting reviews in RUclips of nearly 40 year old adventures.
Keep em coming !
Of course we read it with 2020 eyes. The scenario does have some great things in it, but seems ultimately pointless... which is kind of the point as the servants of Tharizdun had a long and pointless time in trying to restore him.
You may not believe this but I love Gary Gygax. I had the pleasure of meeting him at GenCon 2001 and had my photo taken with him. I still have my autographed Queen of the Spiders and Temple of Elemental Evil - but that doesn't mean you can't be hold a critical opinion of his work. In many ways Lost Temple of Tharizdun was both of it's time and ahead of it's time, and for me it just didn't quite work.
Disappointing. I might repurpose the temple location and a bunch of the encounters for a story with a little more closure
The whole point is that there *is* no closure. Ultimately, the players end up mimicking the original cultists who didn't get the closure they sought.
Watching his hand for a video is very annoying
L Deliannis You must be new around here...