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RPG Retro Review | The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun
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- Опубликовано: 11 фев 2023
- This week I turn the way back machine to 1982 and take a look at Gary Gygax's 'The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun". Let's take a look at the origins in the lore of 'the Chained Oblivion' himself!
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Seems this module gets overlooked. An all time Gygax classic. A tic below Lost Cavern yet very innovative. Thanks for the memories.
Yeah man. I really like the atmosphere and creepiness of this module. It creeped me out just reading it.
From what I remember, back in the day, it wasn't widely available.
@@terryprentice9657 I agree. A friend turned up with it and it was a surprise to all of us. Lot of fun.
Lost Caverns is a step below even Id say. The funhouse dungeons arent as much of my thing as natural ecology type ones though.
I played this back in 83/84 timeframe. Adventures like these it what mad D&D magical to me and my friends.
YES. One of the type that definitely feels 'magical' to me as well. Decent into the Depths of the Earth' is another one that really gives me that kind of feeling.
My 12 yr. old self couldn’t be bothered with this module, the art was too different and weird.
So glad you reviewed this one. This has been one of your best reviews in terms of detail and explanation.
No doubt! I'd pick it up in the game store and scratch my head. Turn out there is a real gem there after all.
Same story here.
Kind of the reason why I bought it at age 12.
@@marktan3368 you were a smarter kid than I.
Same here
Bold to have the very bottom of the dungeon contain no "monster" encounter, only being in the presence of an Evil Cyst. More dungeons need to use strong, evocative descriptors like "Cyst".
Agreed!! Its very Lovecraftian to simply have the final horror of the place be 'knowledge'.
That's such a fun word.... cyst... cyst... ccccyst. I'm about to go to Walmart. I think I'll cause a scene and just shout it in the middle of the checkout lines.
@@dokushirizo Please dis-cyst. 🤣
lol. That monk high-kicking the skeleton's head off on the sponsor's folder had me in stitches... 🤣
Lol, yeah, Mark's Old School aesthetic is pretty funny sometimes.
Hi Captain,
Thank you for a great video. I enjoy your reviews very much. In addition, I wish to express a sincere thank you for mentioning my 5e Conversion with maps. I am thrilled that you enjoyed them and found them useful. I very much appreciate you mentioning them in your review.
I ran a slightly modified version of the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun in my previous 5e campaign. It was pretty wild and unfolded much as you laid it out in your review. The initial assault on the temple, took three game sessions, each about three hours. My group still talks about the intense and lengthy battle. The group then settled into an exploration of the temple, dungeon, and cyst. They donned the robes, and carried the thuribles into the cyst, looking very much like the priest of Tharizdun must have looked back during the height of the temple. Their exposure to the temple and Tharizdun played a significant part in the later chapters of the campaign we were running.
All in all, this is an enjoyable dungeon with a Gygaxian feel. I think your review really captures the pros and cons of WG4. Great job on an enjoyable review.
Ernie
My pleasure Ernie.
This is one of my favorite Gygax modules! It is so creative and creepy!
I'm thinking it'd maybe be great to have a powerful trustworthy and good NPC patron asking the players to find the knowledge and return it to them b/c they afraid it will get into evil hands. BUT once they possess it, it corrupts their mind and they becomes the new or a BBEG. Love your reviews. Esp when you give nuggets on how you'd run these old adventures to make them better.
I love your videos. It's like a shopping catalog. I've been advertising your channel in my discord groups. Some are like "oh, I don't want to ruin it if I want to play it" so I'm happy to explain that you have a little history lesson of the module, then the innards of the actual module and they lose their minds. I have a "shopping list" of yours and other players that do these, but I always say that yours go waaaay back. Thanks for everything. Remember folks if you love the content of your favorite streamers you have to watch all the commercials, if you skip the commercials they don't get paid!
Some how I manage to not remember most of the specifics of what I learn from these videos. Too much other stuff to remember, I think. ; )
An older friend lent this to me when I was about 11. Needless to say, I didn't understand it. Now I love it. Needs a bit of tinkering to push the party towards the cyst, but about as evocative as can be.
You are the man Captain, thank you. Like you said, the cyst area is a bit confusing. Your walkthrough of that transition is super helpful.
Glad it helped!
Yeah, that's something a DM really has to think about how to narrate it.
Great work, Captain! I love it... that was a 30 minute vacation. Great descriptions, history, observations, and analysis. Just wonderful stuff! I'll listen to this one more than once.
I often wonder if some rich patron swooped in on Gary & early TSR and let them slow things down and really get a handle on all they were trying to do and scale it. Would things have been better? Maybe it would have been stifling? We can only speculate.
I mean, I was 17 and thought this stuff was one of the coolest things in the world and saw so much future potential. And it's still being fulfilled. I'm continually awed by how far Gary Gygax and some of these guys actually got. The thing (these modules) got published, and now we can riff and improve on it forever. If it never to to press, we all would have lost.
I'm going to pick out one of the many thoughts this video provoked. about secret doors. Secret doors should never be generic or trivial. These things actually exist. We can research them. We can design them, with our without using magic in their design. Each door should have unique physical properties. Don't just role dice! How does it work? What hides it? In what ways can it be discovered? Same deal for "hidden compartment". This is where the good stuff is... the key that will get magic items that can save your party when you have gone "a bridge too far".
But all those short comings are real, and you lovingly point them out so we can fix and build on them. You help us see the gems in the rough. You have the eye of a great Dwarven miner, Captain.
That's what it's all about. Having an adventure and getting to tell the story and retelling until you are good at telling it.... by the fire at the Prancing Pony. ; )
That's a great suggestion. I'd love to see how that turns out.
Great Module! I remember my dad DMing this one for our high school gaming group. Starting with a massive wargame mini battle with the temple laid out with toy blocks and then into the dungeon levels! Loved the black wand of force/light saber treasure too!
Always loved this module - and one of the particular treasures inside 👍
I got this module before the Fiend Folio was available at the little book store in the little town I grew up in. My early teen self was very irritated at the time that the monsters inside weren't in the Monster Manual.
Yeah, this is definitely one for mature gamers who can really get into the cosmic horror aspect of it.
The final area needs more poison needle traps. ;)
I was gifted this as a kid but never really got into it, 12 year old me didn't understand the art and look so I barely even looked into it. In my college years I did and ran it a few times, 25 years later it's one of my favorites and I lift parts of it all the time for my campaigns.
"The final area needs more poison needle traps. ;)"
They were going to mix it up with some impaling spear traps behind false doors, but Acererak had already bought them all out for Tomb of Horrors. :)
Love this module and all the art for it. Fantastic and under appreciated. The only weaknesses are the maps. At least they are functional.
As always, another awesome review! Looks like you've reviewed most of the original modules from the early 80s. I hope you continue reviewing the later 1st edition stuff from say 1984-1988!
Oh got here fast! Happy days
Thank you for the insightful video on one of the weirder modules I got as a kid. I didn't understand it back then so I never DM'd it. I still have all of my old modules. I like the quality of your videos.
Great vid, Cap. I modded this one too. The last task was to go back to gnome vale with the news of the temple, getting a briefing, and then heading off to Tsojcanth.
That beginning voiceover is great! Agreed - the original wilderness map is visually pretty horrible; but if one does not opt for the digital VTT maps that you refer to here, just coloring in that wilderness map with pencil colors would go a long way in making it more asthetic as well as functional!
I really enjoy your reviews of these AD&D classics, especially when you provide more adventure details and spoilers like you did in this one. Please keep them coming. Thanks!
Tharizdun was brought up a good bit in 4e, him being a "hidden and vile deity" and the one who (through direct action) created the infinite Abyss.
The never ending need to explain everything.. I think they kind of ruined him. I guess it could have been worse.
@@doodlesquatch277he’s basivally the same
Nice overview! The "mundane" map was just the way we did maps back then. Squares were 10 feet, and they were not for "battlemap" purposes but for exploration. Players were expected to listen carefully to descriptions and imagine the scenes, which is why Gygax provided so much flavor text. Art/handouts were very rare. We didn't have an internet or chatGPT/AI to generate art. We didn't have access to computer map tools or shared maps like the 5e re-work you highlighted. Believe me, we would have used all those tools then if they had been available.
This is one of my favorite adventure modules. I've used it three times in two different Greyhawk campaigns, even creating a second "Shadowfell" version (players had to find their way back to the Prime Material plane via a portal in the dungeon level). The outside and upper levels are flat-out monster sluggathons. A party will not survive if they don't retreat at some point to some place of safety. But that also gives the humanoid forces time to reconfigure their defenses.
I created additional hints to access the shaft by making a journal/diary handout that described a priesthood rivalry, with some pages containing clues as to how to use the various implements to access and navigate the deep sub-level down the shaft. When my players got there they activated the column with the gray mist and were so freaked out they fled back up and never returned. Good times.
The temple depiction you provide at around 20 seconds in has the basic shape of a Transformers city-former. :) But I'm off topic...
Played this in the late 80s and can barely remember the experience. I do recall that it was creepy and atmospheric, however, and for ages felt that 'Thurizdun' was the coolest evil name. Never knew of the Lovecraftian associations back then but it makes sense now. The use of Fiend Folio creatures resulted in me misremembering this as a UK-series module.
The wilderness map is a bit much - a maze of mountains - and it gets me wondering whether any mountain ranges in reality are ever that wide...
Ah, I've been waiting for this one! I love this module in theory, but also think it maybe needed one final rewrite. I appreciate that there's no boss battle at the end, but the mechanics of the horn and the robes and the incense and the vapour and the yadda yadda is just a little too fussy for me. That said, a few tweaks and this is easily one of the best. I have it on slate for the party I'm refereeing down the road when they level up more. It has got tremendous atmosphere and is really in a class on its own with other modules. A+ walkthrough, CC!
yeah, I agree, a bit of tweeking. I think the illusion of the cultists in the North Wall entry area in the lower temple could provide the additional 'clue' needed to successfully complete the final phase in the undertemple.
@@captcorajus yeah I can’t imagine that my group would have figured it all out at the time. It seems an obscure solution.
@@captcorajusthis is a good idea! Im thinking of putting a book with the priestly robes, which may drive the reader a little mad, and shows them the rituals, as well as possibly summoning a demon as it compels them to speak in abyssal. I think Tharizdun would want to be freed, so he would likely try and get the PCs to go down into the temple and retrieve his artifacts. Once they are out in the world, it is more likely he can influence someone...
Picked up the vtt maps, thanks for pointing them out. I'd like to run this some day using either Swords & Wizardry, OSRIC, or AD&D. Should be pretty easy to run this with almost any osr rules without having to do much extra prep.
I always liked the artwork from the Fiend Folio. It was quite distinctive from the other modules and books.
Yeah! It was different now that you point that out.
We had the good fortune of going through Tsojcanth-Tharizdun about 10 years ago.
I've run this one twice, and almost ran it recently for a third time. For a twist on the original plan for the module, I actually switched things around when it comes to the goal and plot. In my Saturday night campaign, the players are actively trying to thwart a plot by Iggwilv and Iuz to release Tharizdun (their plan being to capture him in a weakened state upon his release and steal his power to elevate Iuz to full godhood).
So, the PCs have infiltrated the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, finding a home-brewed 3rd level which serves as the actual lair of Iggwilv, and discovered her plot with Iuz. They then travel Northwest to the gnome vale, where one of the party has relatives who may have an idea on the general location of the Forgotten Temple. There, the whole norker incursion plotline isn't mentioned, just acquiring a guide to hemp them try to find the Temple. Thus, it's a surprise for them to ultimately discover that the temple is inhabited by the humanoid tribes, Hijinks ensue, and the rest of the adventure goes on as planned.
They particularly had difficulty with the annis on the second level of the temple. No mere cook she, some of the players were taken down by her abilities, and the party nearly defeated.
Thanks - I have this module as an original. I never played it, but when I saw you were reviewing it, I was immediately looking forward to it. How about reviewing Dark Clouds Gather? It's my all-time fave 1e module.
"Dark Clouds Gather" was different. I also loved "All That Glitters".
Yes. That series of British modules isn't bad. I'm pretty sure I've now found them all!
I loved this module for it's value. You could spend untold hours just on the wilderness portions and it was a challenge to map. I was about 14-16 when running it and never had issues reading or running it.
A blast from the past!
I still have my original Tharizdun module from when I was young and I felt the same with art as @automatics1im. According to Wikipedia: "Lawrence Schick, in his 1991 book Heroic Worlds, criticized the module's cover as "the worst cover of any TSR AD&D module, a morass of colored blobs." LOL. Thanks for your awesome reviews and support!
Looking forward to watching this one
This is a classic that was obscure at the time of its release but has really picked up notice with later works giving Tharizdun a much deeper lore.
I feel like Tharizdun is an aspect of Hastur / King in Yellow.
I consider Tharizdun more cosmic in scale. This is an entity that desires complete entropy of existence. I think of it as a formless, lightless thing... a malevolent, living void that seeks to consume all that is. It is hunger personified on a cosmic scale, it knows only to consume. But its also vastly intelligent, and seeks to coopt intelligent beings to its end.
My friend ran this for us over 20 years ago. No way did we even get close to finishing this adventure. We just couldn't find the secret doors/or thought we WERE done. Even with the DM giving us minor hints...we just wanted out of this place!
That is probably a smart move, tbh. Should honestly bring the whole place down with stone to mud spells.
I posted a comment below, I think I'll be leaving a book for the PCs to find... which may drive them mad, but will show what this place is, and a hint as to what is down below, and how to unlock some of these doors.
@@TheManyVoicesVA that's a great idea. I've never run this module myself, but own several copies (one in shrink). If I remember - the colors of something in it reminded me of the GORD THE ROGUE series of books written by Gary.
Very nice review! Thank you! I have this module and want to DM this.
My parties need some levels before tackling this.
My all time favorite module from any game. After the humanoid zoo is dispatched the real adventure begins, and it’s like descending into the soul of a dark god. This part of the module can be used in many settings that a forgotten temple or catacomb would fit, including modern settings or sci fi. Kids on Bikes meet THARIZDUN? Of course!
When this came out, I was 13, and the cover completely put me off. Just thought "what a weird and..pink??? dungeon. NO thanks!"
youth is easily spooked.
Agreed... lol, I don't think that cover did it any favors.
Tharizdun was a big bad in my campaign for a long time, specifically because of this module but I didn't run it officially until much later and found it was just an okay experience. Most of the thrill of it was from my Brother-In-Laws additions. The abrupt ending hurts it in my opinion. I like the later uses of him, especially in 3/3.5. Still a must have for me
I so wish I had picked up this module back in the day.
Great intro!
Thanks. I hoped it would be received well. I had a bit of fun tweaking my voice in audacity... lol. 🤣
I wished I could find a group that likes the old school style
Another great video. I remember this one from the 80s.
Your number one cap excellent and have a good evening.
Fun fact: Gygax said that Oerth was pronounced like Earth with a heavy Brooklyn accent. (Oi-(r)-th)
Oh man this is freaking amazing!
I’ve wondered what would happen if the Wonderous Lanthorn from S4 was brought down to the Black Cyst and loaded up with all those black gemstones. Would the light from the lantern be enough to bring back Tharizdun? I guess I’ll have to find a group to run both adventures and find out.
Wow, I thought I played all of the Gygax modules. This one slipped under my radar.
When I put on the sub titles for this video it says "key of eternal darkness", instead of "he of eternal darkness" during the intro. But you got to admit the name "key of eternal darkness" would be a good evil object to destroy in a D&D campaign. Crappy video subtitles inspiring an idea for an evil artifact. Now there's a source of inspiration I think nobody ever saw coming😂
Ooooo! Thanks! I like it!!
Interesting to see a green grell. Also, glory to the final-rating thump! :D
Hey Cap! Are you going to Garycon or anything like that this year? Congrats on 20K, lets gooo!
I'm afraid I can't make it this year. Hopefully next year!
@@captcorajus Yeah! I've got September marked in my calendar. I'm going to try to book into Main Lodge for 2024. If anybody has any tips on how to assure a room (like volunteering maybe?), I'd really appreciate it.
I just reread some Clark Ashton Smith and was thinking it would make a great setting for an adventure or campaign!
❤ this one
I always loved that mountain map. I thought that's the way they should look compared to what they usually give us. But maybe that's just because I live in the mountains of Virginia and know how hard mountain treks can be? lol
A lot of people say the OG Greyhawk campaign series is Temple, Slaver Lords, Giants trilogy, Drow trilogy then Demonweb Pits. I am wondering, would the Tharizdun adventure fit as a replacement for the Slaver series?
Great review. This is one my group did not do. Question. How long would this module take to play? I know it would be a range. Thanks
Well, I'd say it would take a minimum of about four game sessions.. that's only a guess. It depends on how much you adhere to the hex crawl aspect of the adventure. Clearing the upper level will be a challenge, and the player characters may have to fall back and regroup. The core exploration section will probably take a session. Finally the descent into the undertemple and the cyst might pose quite the challenge.
Problem is, there's really no hint as to where and when to sound the horn, or place the incense. Plus, the entire "end game" depends on the characters finding the hidden chamber in the first place. Unless one character is a priest of Tharizdun-- which should never be the case-- players won't have a clue.
Well I was thinking- Since the dungeon already does trippy things like force knowledge into your mind and intrance people into speaking the evil deity's name, would it feel too out of place to have someone feel compelled to do something not of their own volition, that would strongly hint something like a hidden chamber, or one of the items's purpose? I think there is potential as the DM to guide the players to the "meat" of the dungeon.
Maybe the dais that damages non evil clerics could make a player temporarily "possessed" as if they had become a follower of Tharizdun, and therefore make them aware of the required rituals?
@@Heriarka - Not a bad idea. I'd use temporary possession, and maybe combine it with a puzzle or riddle of some sort.
However it's done, there is a strong possibility that the characters will die on this quest, so they may as well be given the tools necessary to finish the dungeon!
A good point. I remember having this module when I was a kid and in reading it, the procedures for eventually finding their way into the Black Cyst were never made clear. If I had just ran it the way it was detailed, the party in question would never have figured that there was something more sinister than a large clan of norkers and ogres led by a mountain giant.
So I had a good friend of mine who was going to play this game with us. I had him look over the adventure (he was completely trustworthy) so he could see what was needed to enter the undertemple and cyst. Then, unknown to the rest of the players, he was able to help them go the way they needed to go.
It actually was enjoyed by all. All in all, a solid adventure, but I would definitely have given a bit more help to the PCs. Maybe they find a hidden room with a prayer journal written by a now-gone worshiper which gives details or clues to get to the cyst?
Its a wonder he didnt finish the Temple of Elemental Evil before this module, especially since Hommlet came out years earlier.
Wait, Norkers are a Hobgoblin offshoot? The Norker mini I have is super small, smaller than a Halfling. What gives?
Okay, "size 4' tall".
One of my all-time favorites!
Why do you pronounce “caverns” “cavrens?”
That's the way I talk? lol
Always found the 5-10 level range in modules to be less than useful. I tended to assume it meant you could start as a 5th level character and come out 10th. Generally not the case.
Generally it was level five if you had 10 characters level ten if you had five characters.
I cannot imagine going in here with 10 PC's and fifth level isn't enough.
300xp
How would the PCs know to do this stuff? These preistly rituals are pretty obtuse lol. Has anyone thought about adding a ritual book with similar effects to the book found near the end? Maybe tucked away in the room with the robes. The words in the book are unimportant... they move and shift on the page, revealing to the player who reads them images of men in black robes swinging these implements around, and inserting something unseen into a horrible, pulsating black stone. In the background the sounds of chanting, and a horn being blown.
It all happens in a couple of seconds, and the reader's eyes roll back into their head as they begin to chant abyssal. If noone in the party stops it, a portal opens and some otherworldy horror appears, which unleashes horrible screams. The screeching causes damage to all who hear it, as their ears begin to bleed. Looking at the thing has a chance to inflict confusion, and the reader of the book is utterly stunned and helpless upon the ground from the dark influence on their mind.
I feel that at least 1 combat encounter down here with an otherworldly entity would be a good fit. These guys worshipped a sort of arch-demon after all.
This module should have been the climax of the Giants series.
4:31 - I know this is a _very_ small detail, but do you happen to know where I might find a PDF of the _Temple of Elemental Evil_ labeled "T2" as shown, rather than "T1-4"? It's not offered on DMG or DtRPG, and even a Google search is giving me nothing!
That cover is simply a fan made 'mock up' of what T2 'might' have looked like.
@@captcorajus - LMFAO! You have no idea how long I spent obsessing over finding that cover, just to complete my collection for a 1st Edition Tharizdun campaign!
Please tell me the music playing at 2.14
Although I agree with all points of the Retro Review, as someone who played and DM'd this, I give The Forgotten Temple 1 out of 5 stars. IT IS GOD-AWFUL TO RUN & PLAY AS IS, and unless spoon-fed solutions, players will see their characters die or simply miss big chunks of the adventure. I have been in groups where players rage-quit the game as the design was so bad. Also, Norkers are truly terrible.
How to Make it Good: Run the module Call of Cthulhu-style, where the players MUST research Tharizdun and the temple beforehand, and have damn good reason to go and try and shut it all down.
That's a great suggestion! That said not all modules match up to all players. Another group could play this and have a blast. Gygax rarely turned on 'easy' mode to be sure though! lol
I'm not a fan of Gygax' work, but this one is a gem.
I really like Dark Wizard Games a lot, but $15 for 3 trapper keeprs, really guys, really?
You have to kind of hold these folders in your hand to get it. They are thick card stock yes, but there's more to it... the silky smooth feel of the things is really interesting. I've never felt anything like it. This is definitely a premium print.
I always found this a very hard and confusing module. The same reasons you site, the lack of explanatory artwork and the blandness of the map itself. And the text is just as confusing: Do you read it to the players or not? There's no box to offset it. Oh, and the wilderness map, is horrible. I wasn't a great fan of the Fiend Folio monsters either, so that was a turn off as well to the module. I treasure my copy (because it's by Gygax) but I didn't care for it when I originally got it, or since then. It just seems as "Unfinished" and "Unpolished" in my opinion still to this day.
Man, I'd forgotten how godawful the original hex crawl map was.
Gygaxian prolixity is the antithesis of weal.
Interesting how CAS doesn't appear on Appendix N despite being a clear influence on Gygax. I wonder if it's for the same reasons that Gygax often claimed Tolkien had no influence on D&D.
Norkers. snigger.