TRUE LIES 4K first thoughts + link to a longer, full discussion and review video
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- Опубликовано: 25 апр 2024
- Link to the full, long video is here: • True Lies: A Discussio...
TRUE LIES 4K UHD Blu-ray first impressions. Trevor from Double Bill Movies brought this 4K over so that we could go through it together. It's proved to be a controversial release and we can both see why. When it first came on screen I thought it looked unnatural and pretty dreadful because of that. Clearly a lot of re-processing has been done and given that so many of us know this film so well from cinema screenings, previous home video releases and even the superb quality Super 8 trailer, it is more difficult to accept a beloved title not looking how we expect. However, Trevor and I managed to achieve good results from this disc in the end but it took some working out.
To see the full video of Trevor and I discussing TRUE LIES click on the link at the top of this description and please subscribe to Trevor's channel so that he'll feel like all the travelling and work put into his video has been worth it. 
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I just went over and watched it. Great video you two! Here's the comment I left on his video:
Great review you guys! You both worked very well together in the video. When I reviewed this 4K for my channel, it wasn't the hdr/brightness causing problems, as much as it was the scrubbed details in faces on certain shots. Some shots were incredibly detailed, while others the faces looked caked in makeup. My tv was professionally calibrated and the Panasonic player I used I left on the original settings as per the recommendation of the people who calibrated it. I do really enjoy this movie, but I found myself pulled out of the movie a handful of times due to the "restoration." As far as Aliens on 4K goes, I LOVED that one! I also reviewed it. (I'm no expert though). Thanks again, you guys are great! (I'd love to hear John's thoughts on the Aliens 4K).
One day I'll get to the 4K of Aliens but it's one I'll buy and never watch all the way through so it would merely be expense for a RUclips review. In other words, I'll probably wait until it's a little cheaper. I still need to watch your review of that one.
Putting the laser lamp down to 50% output was the game changer with this 4K of True Lies and no end of professional calibration is going to turn that up. This is because HDR is applied differently on just about every disc and this one is far too bright. Once the light output had been adjusted to suit this particular disc then we saw far fewer scenes that stood out as over processed. Even those that were looked better. Perhaps try setting your backlight down far lower than you ever would and see if that has a similar effect. Then put it back up for whatever you watch next.
John.
These 'restorations' are beyond tacky and distasteful.
That's enough deep sea missions for you Jim. Perhaps the extreme pressure damaged both his brain and his eyesight.
I can see how the re-working of True Lies would have looked impressive in the editing suite on a big screen. It's just that our home equipment isn't exactly matching the quality in that suite and probably not the settings either. Getting the brightness of the laser lamp down to 50% was the game changer and it looked so much better. If you have that facility, give that a try.
John.
@@moviecollector5920 What? If the garbled AI treatment is blatantly visible on our "lowly gear", then it should look god awful on anything that is cutting edge and large.
@@totalprocall6894 The evidence doesn't appear to suggest that. Try it with your backlight down far too low than you would ever normally consider. This may duplicate the ability I have to put the laser lamp output down to 50%. This disc is never going to look perfect but as far as I'm concerned that final tweak made it more involving to watch than any of the other home video formats. The only other option for the true enthusiast is the Super 8 cut down which is actually a 3x400ft so probably about an hour. Should look terrific and as close to a cinema screening as we're likely to get with this one now... but you never know.
John.
@totalprocall6894 agreed and I am using a fully callabrated oled
@@chrisburns7979 Calibration won't help when a big factor is HDR. HDR is applied individually to every release and it's never the same twice. Get your backlight down if watching on a telly as that might have the same eureka effect as turning a video projector laser lamp down to 50%. Best of luck. John.
Hi John, thanks so much for this review & for Trevor's input.- I'd avoided this release, but decided to watch it based on your comments. So, I've been watching this on my calibrated Panasonic 65" Oled - Something that people overlook is that every single source to your display needs its own calibration as the results from the Panasonic Blu Ray will be different than an Apple TV or the devices own built in App's. Due to this, over and above calibrating the TV with my meter I had to make a set of HDR ramps in 4K (there's various you can download from YT) & then put these on a USB stick & stream them as files to each of the TV's various inputs. The icing on the cake for me was watching Oppenheimer on 15/70 in London as my memories from that, helped me tweak the final image to what I saw. For example, from Blu Ray my brightness is at 100, yet my contrast is at 75% - & all the dvd player processing is turned off accept sharpening at +1 which is a known setting on these players. Anyway, back to this disk - I was actually 'very impressed' there's modicum of film grain still there, on my system the HDR is great & I'd go as far to say that I had even better results than your screenshots (snow globe,interior car scene & logo on screen in meeting room). The disk is 'quite obviously' an upscale of a 1080 image you can see that particularly in the opening scenes & there seems to be some highlight infomation that simply 'isnt there' in the source. The smoothing to the skin tones was noticeable at times (especially Jamie Lee Curtis) & was certainly 'variable' throughout the movie. However, it didn't spoil my enjoyment at all. As others have said, if you like the movie this is probably as good as the movie will ever likely look.
A very good summary Ian. Well done. I think video projectors will inherently produce different results to any telly so it's impossible to compare like for like. It all depends on if you are happier with a telly or a big screen fix. I've grown up with projection so it's the logical way to go as far as I'm concerned but I realize most have only ever known a television and for most that is what they will prefer to stick with. I do think all movies are better projected as big as possible and I think this 4K of TRUE LIES is a case in point. The bigger it goes, the better it will look. I think it would look best on a huge cinema screen which would probably hide some of the deficiencies from the sometimes excessive processing that appears to have been done. We now think some of the waxy looks are due to slightly out of focus shots which does seem to make sense. I suspect the film grain was added back in but it works so who cares?
John.
the major issue is not the colours it's the over use of DNR/AI out of the 3 films True lies is the worst followed by Aliens and the Abyss that i had to import due to not being released in the uk as JC didn't want to cut the film i use an collaborated OLED Screen
Totally agree. There’s need to fiddle just use decent hardware calibration equipment and know how to use it. Unfortunately that’s never going to fix this ghastly heavy handed restoration. I sent my disc back and unfortunately I’ll have to stick to the Spanish Blu-ray.
The game changer was being able to put the lamp down to 50%. No end of calibration is going to be able to tell you to do that as it's fairly unusual that I have to do it for any disc. Not completely unique by any stretch but not at all common.
John.
@moviecollector5920 forgot the brightness or colours ect in your video look at the still with arnie look at his face the detail is go snd just looks like a wax work no amount of adjustment can fix it
@@chrisburns7979 It didn't look quite like that to the eye but it wasn't right. There are quite a few scenes like that but by the time we'd finished the 4K disc looked the most involving of all the four home video formats we had available. Trevor thought the Spanish Blu-ray was best and he may be right but I felt the 4K was in the top spot. Having said that, getting this one to look anywhere near right on any television might be a stretch too far. The Blur-ray in the 4K pack looked better than the 4K on my telly but we didn't bother faffing around with that so that isn't conclusive.
John.
@@moviecollector5920 I’m with Trevor, 100%. The Spanish Blu-ray while very far from perfect, at least doesn’t use heavy handed techniques that end up damaging the original material. Faces are life like and grain structure is in place.
Thanks, John. I've been eager to get an impartial review of this disc and know that we can always trust you to provide an honest view.
Have you watched the full video on Trevor's channel Boss? There was a lot of playing about to get the disc looking as good as we did. Some still won't like it but I think most would in here on my system.
John.
@@moviecollector5920 I have watched it, thanks, John; another great collaboration between you two. Hope there'll be more team-ups to come!
As to the Cameron 4Ks, I think too much tinkering has ensued, sadly, although that is just my opinion.
@@tyo101 There has certainly been too much tinkering on this one. But we did achieve pretty good results in the end and I find that sort of thing a good fun challenge. It turns home video collecting into more of a hobby like film collecting where you are always trying to get the best results from your treasured and valuable film prints. John.
I was soooooo looking forward to this one. You’re TOP tier of knowledge.
It will take you about half an hour to get through the full video on Trevor's channel so I hope you like it.
John.
@@moviecollector5920 I received the discs yesterday and I’m not happy with the restoration. I think Cameron treats his old films like some Hollywood legends treat their faces. The guy hates grain and films aging with dignity. He’s the plastic surgeon of movies.
@@Nick-us6tz See if you can follow the guidance we go through in Trevor's video and you may find the same results as I. I'm probably going to purchase this one now I know it looks the best of all the home video options on my system. John.
Lets be honest this 4k disc is an utter car crash. Talk of settings all you like, most new oled's have "filmmaker mode" that is calibrated to industry standards to a very accurate degree. My own panasonic OLED was tested with a meter and adheres strictly to D65 white point, with 100nits of brightness, plus the average colour delta was 1.4 which is as good as it gets. Respectfully, the issues with the AI upscale is nothing to do with peoples TV's or calibration, and EVERYTHING to do with the lazy, detail destroying/altering, techniques used at the point of mastering. It's Jim's obsession with a certain digital look that is the issue, but the trouble is that "look" cannot exist in any pleasant way on film based movies form that era. A pure 4k restoration from the original camera negative would have been miles, MILES, ahead of this abortion.
No end of calibrating is going to turn up the fact that the HDR is overbright on a particular disc such as this one and that therefore necessitates getting the lamp brightness output down to 50%. I see you're having to watch on a telly so try setting the backlight down much lower than usual and you may also have a eureka result... but probably not if you've made your miind up. Do try to keep an open mind though and you'll find the learning process will help you get the best out of all your 4K discs.
John.
Film maker model isn't an industry standard calibration for the simple reason you can't calibration a display for everyone's viewing habits.
It is however an agreed standard of settings between film makers and the display manufacturers that turns off all unnecessary picture processing and set the display settings to closely match that of a mastering suite.
Only further calibration that you said you have had done will get the display even closer to accurate in your personal viewing room.
The same as a racing car has to be adjusted for each track it races on. Its impossible to have one global setting.
John and I were really looking at how good we could make it on his set up. This won't apply to everyone's set up and no it clearly won't improve what James Cameron has done to the image.
Trevor
Hi John! watched over on Trevors channel Double Bill Movies first then came here so some dislexic viewing lol but enough jesting and on with the praise. Really enjoyed the collaboration and ready to look again at this film in its best format 4k. Wouldnt of met Trevor without your channel so thanks again and couldnt agree more . Really enjoy Double Bill Movies channel is good fun and Trevor has a skill with review as well and further my tele looks great after his calibrating tips given to me a year ago from way across the pond lol He offers tips and feedback to questions so really appreciate it along with your dedication to film and cinema. Have a great weekend cheers D !!
Trevor's channel is suddenly doing quite well Dave so it's good to see him getting more support now. He's got a lot of knowledge and quite a few of us have availed ourselves of his advice and guidance. He'll never get me to agree to any sort of 'professional calibration' because I would always prefer home video movies to look like film and that mainly means keeping the brightness down. With this UHZ50 video projector it's the star like output of the laser lamp that I have to frequently rein in to get the best out of a disc and no end of calibration would ever sort that variability.
John.
I just watched this movie on my JVC NP5 projector, and I had none of the issues that you described, as everything looked like it should without having to mess with anything in my projector's settings. That is the major benefit of having a projector that does frame by frame tone mapping with HDR content, I guess. Cheers!
Morning Beau. That's a wonderful video projector you have there, no doubt about that. Neither of my Optoma's are so clever but that's what you get it you purchase something like yours. It took some working out to get True Lies looking as good as we did but most people are experiencing this disc similarly to what we were seeing to start with and that's got to be at least partially down to equipment.
John.
Great video on Trevor’s channel. His professional experience is fantastic.
As a subscriber to Trevor’s channel, I’d highly recommend his videos…. And the collaborations with John are brilliant. 👍🏻
Trevor's channel has had a good boost overnight Dave so I hope that continues. He's going to have to choose his next subject for a video quite carefully after this one to continue the upward trend.
John.
@@moviecollector5920 great to hear and his channel deserves to grow.
Does the spanish blu ray have an english audio track?
Yes. Finding it was the problem because neither of us are fluent in Spanish but you get used to the menu system pretty quickly. Have you been over to Trev's videos Matt? If not, please leave a comment on there as I'd like to see Trevor get more comments on a video than ever before. He'll be pleased if he does as he likes to talk movies with fellow enthusiasts.
John.
@@moviecollector5920 Ahh ok, just curious because I have thought about getting it. Haven't seen Trevs videos yet, I'll go over now and give him a comment and sub.
@@MATDMixes Thanks Matt.
@@moviecollector5920 no problem
@@moviecollector5920 you're welcome mate!
I didn't think Aliens, The Abyss or True Lies had 4k discs that were THAT bad, quite frankly. True Lies is definitely the worst of the bunch, though.
The main reason True Lies looked suspect on my system to start with was because it was far too bright. Since I purchased this little Optoma UHZ50 video projector I've spent more time with configuration reining the brightness in. There are many discs out there, particularly 4K discs, that are simply overblown. Setting the laser lamp output down to 50% has been the solution with more than a few of them but also sometimes with standard Blu-ray. The end result was image quality on this new release that looked pretty good and I thought it was more involving to look at than the Spanish Blu-ray. If I'm right then that makes it the best home video release of True Lies to date.
John.
Hi John, I know it's only been out a few days but any idea when you might get a chance to do a 4K review of Aliens? Thanks.
I don't expect to do that in a hurry. Reason being that £25 for a disc I'll only ever have a look at for a RUclips video is a lot of money. When it's come down a bit then I might take a look as an excuse to do another special sort of Alien type video. John.
Thank you John.
Thank you Cheekster. Get over and give Trevor your usual support. John.
Didn’t bother me a bit, but I’m easy. Glad I got it. I tend to adjust flesh tones on all movies I watch. You need to borrow some hair from Trevor!
I loaned Trevor some of mine Gary. John.
@@moviecollector5920 some? I’m also hair challenged.
Great review and thoughts as always sir. BTW, I just found the first DVD I purchased with my own money back in 1995. Stargate. So old you have to flip the disc in the middle to continue the feature. Ah...good times.
I have the NTSC LaserDisc of Stargate. You not only have to flip the disc (unless you have a later LD player) but you then have to put a third side on because it comes on two discs. Those were the days. Right now we're running the LaserDisc of Narrow Margin which is a great Peter Hyams film.
John.
Many new tvs have a filmaker mode this has the effect of a reset. I then go from there with any ajustments required. Having said that nobody has mentioned the player settings. I have an old Sony on which various parameters for brightness colour hue etc can be altered and saved as presets. By juggling the presets of the player and tweaking the tv got an acceptable picture to me for True Lies. This was on an Oled set up. My none oled Tv played even better by simply switching the HDR off this is an ancient Phillips don't know if this is possible on newer sets. After viewing Trevor and yourself subscribed to his channel. After all of that went black and white with the Lavender Hill Mob !l Intresting collaboration.
Thank you for subscribing to my channel and glad you enjoyed our video.
John did mention he turned the HDR down on his player.
I would only change settings in the player if I was getting a calibration done. My Pioneer LX71 has picture settings unless you know what you are doing I'd suggest leaving all the picture settings neutral on the player and only adjust the TV settings.
A professional calibrator might use the player settings to help calibration of a display but it can get too complicated when there are so many different settings and a lot of them need a meter reading the screen to be adjusted correctly.
I hope that helps.
Trevor
Morning Mike. I have fiddled with the settings within the player to the point of exhaustion many times but we didn't need to this time. Actually, I rarely have to any longer as they do seem to be spot on for every disc now. The big variability on my present system is the light output of the laser. Combine that blinding light with overblown HDR which so many 4K discs have been mastered with (including True Lies) and no end of professional calibration would sort it out. I can't leave the laser lamp on 50% because the next disc will then be too dark. The only way to get the best out of each disc is to ensure the light output is optimized for each disc. On a telly I hope adjusting the backlight to suit would have the same effect.
We should have turned off the HDR to see if that improved things a little further. I don't feel that it would have done once we'd got things as sorted as we did in the end.
John.
The Abyss and Aliens have a superb picture,no question!
I've seen a few clips from the 4K of The Abyss Stephen which a friend shot in his home cinema for me and it does appear pretty terrific. And so it should because it was a very good looking film in the cinema and on Super 8 too. John at Mondo Chelloveck rates the 4K of Aliens highly so hopefully it's only True Lies that was a little too over processed out of the three. We still managed to get it looking pretty good though.
John.
Interesting opinions on the picture quality for the 4k releases from Cameron. My thoughts are that they aren't really supposed to be for screens any smaller than perhaps 60-70 inches. I'm viewing on 120 inches on a 4k PJ and Aliens was quite simply awesome!!!
That was one of the things Trevor and I considered after we'd blathering on in the video discussion so I think you may be right there. John.
All Blu-ray and 4K images are meant to be seen on cinema size screens as they are from the same digital intermediate as the cinemas get their DCP's from.
It's a shame people have to watch films on small 60-70 inch TVs. Even though they are big TVs. The original image size is far far bigger.
Even my 106" screen is only just big enough to justify what's on a 4K.
Having a projector and screen is hands down the best way to watch films at home.
Trevor
@@doublebillmovies Good that you agree. I was waiting for a reply from some people taking the humph with my comment. I got banned from an AV forum for stating that most music production is garbage these days because producers have no interest in putting all the effort into an amazing sounding album when the majority of people listen to it on a soundbar or something like Alexa or Amazon Dot. Paying a few hundred quid for a decent HiFi was the norm back before what we have now. Stick on some Michael Jackson, Fleetwood Mac or even Abba and listen to how awesome it sounds on a decent system. Stick it on a soundbar and it's just another album. Shame things have gotten to where they are with film and music.
@@doublebillmovies Spot on Trevor! John.
John, thanks for the review and the link to the other channel. I was hoping someone would look at this in depth. I have done my own comparison and written it up. There is one more thing to add which I feel you especially would be interested in. The THX pcm track on the Laserdisc has always been my go to also. On the US version of the 4K disc they have preserved the DTS 2.0 English track which to my ears is what I needed to hear over the Atmos. My advice, get the US version for this alone. Thanks
I'm going to play with my main THX sound system in the home cinema to see if I can get a more consistent fuller sound to everything. It might be a littler thinner than it should be because I run it in full THX mode whereas the standard THX sticks bass out to all channels and not just the subwoofer.
DTS 2.0 must be a conversion of the four track matrix Dolby Stereo. I'm not aware of there ever being a surround sound from two channel DTS in cinemas but I'm always happy to be corrected where I'm wrong. What I am increasingly finding with LaserDisc now that I'm running a whole load of them in the living room is how consistently impressive the sound is. I have a lesser sound system in there but it's punching above its weight from these LaserDiscs compared to the high end system in the cinema room.
John.
I believe it is John! It’s the closest to the Laserdisc I’ve heard, gun shots and front stage is loud as it should be. Music is also way more present I find. I agree with you on the laserdisc sound, my go to is mixing these Laserdisc PCM tracks uncompressed with a Blu ray or better video image. Then you get the best of both worlds
@@angelocanale8102 It should be possible to run them in sync which would negate the need for messing around creating a new video master file. I have done this with Super 8 prints for about 30 years with the sound taken from video and the Super 8 projector locked into the exact constant frame rate of the video being played. Result is the best possible sound from the video sound and the best home cinema picture quality from the film print. That wouldn't be the case today with the quality of 4K and Blu-ray discs but it's still a lot of fun to do it. The NTSC LaserDisc of any title should run in sync with the 4K without any other equipment needed once the two images are in sync... until the LaserDisc has to be turned over of course. John.
That's the one I really wanted, there's some on Ebay but the sellers are scalping
See if you can find a Super 8 print. You'll never want to look at in on video ever again if you get a film print. John.
I remember buying the region one DVD of Se7en, and it had a colour bar and sound test as a dvd extra.
You could adjust the colour and sound so it near enough matched the film.
I remember quite a few DVDs had that as a DVD extra.
May be True Lies and other James Cameron films would've benefited from that feature.
Quite a few NTSC LaserDiscs had the colour bars too Floyd. And the Dolby tone test too. The colours appear to have been changed a little on this True Lies 4K but it's the HDR and the generally overly bright nature of the image that needs to be tempered so no end of professional calibration is going to help. It's all about getting the brightness down and as most of us are watching on a telly I reckon that means turning the backlight down low which should duplicate my video projector laser lamp being set to just 50% output. The end result isn't perfect but it is much better.
John.
Enjoyed that film in theaters. Thanks John
I did too Craig. I must look for the ticket to remind myself exactly where and when I saw it. John.
I’ve not picked this one up as I never loved the film however I have just watched the Aliens 4k. I’ll be interested in your thoughts as always however I have to say I really enjoyed the first viewing despite having seen and read about all the complaints I would say it was excellent as far as picture goes. Not as processed as many have said and it still felt very filmic. The sound however seemed very flat and underwhelming, I had to check that my sub was on at one point. Oliver harpers review was interesting in saying that it’s not worth the upgrade from the blu ray from the anthology set so I’m going to take a look that soon to compare.
Then I have the abyss 4k coming from Spain this week which I’m looking forward to revisiting….
I have seen a few clips of The Abyss 4K Tom and it looked terrific to me but that was down the pipe across the web. It was a terrific looking film (and still is on my Super 8 print) so it should be great. But so should True Lies and it's not turned out exactly as it should have. We did get it looking rather good in the end. Once again it was HDR and the image being too bright that caused much of the trouble but it has been a little too over processed in places... or maybe all but most looks good after all the fiddling to get it looking as good as it did in here.
John.
Have to say oliver harpers review was spot on
The Abyss 4k has been banned in UK because of the rat scene😂🙄
I suspect it wasn't deemed cost effective to re-submit it to the British Board of Film Classification again for a new certification. If the rat submersion scene was still deemed to be animal cruelty I don't suppose the extra work and cost of creating a completely separate 4K disc for the UK market would have been worth the expense. An awful lot of discs would have to be sold to justify all that and I can't see any way enough could have been shifted.
John.
I watched your friend's review on his own channel, and appreciated your joint effort. To my eyes, the True Lies 4K has a similar issue to the Predator Ultimate Hunter Edition Blu-ray from 2010. Detail in some areas comes through nicely, but all their faces frequently look smooth as rubber. And with respect, I don't think it's all the HDR. I messed around with all settings, and it was always that bad. I gave the True Lies disc to a dimwitted neighbor, who will likely never notice the difference. I borrowed the Aliens 4K from a friend, and it looks almost as bad as True Lies; to me, anyway. So, in my personal opinion, using A.I. software to clean these things up, is a massive step-down in the advancement of home video. And hopefully, it's a trend that will pass quickly. Although The Abyss does look pretty good, in spite of this application of software; but I suspect that's only because of the quality of the original 4K remastering they did for theatrical re-release. I just can't imagine why on Earth Fox/Disney would spend that kind of money to properly rescan and master a film for theatrical exhibition & home video -- only to then put it through some standard open source A.I. software I'm sure they located on the internet, at last minute. That just boggles my mind that they would do that. Keeping my Aliens 2011 Blu-ray (which to my eyes looks better), and forgetting True Lies, altogether. The Abyss is a passable master, so I'm keeping it. But the other two (and this is only my opinion) will prove out to be embarrassing missteps.
I agree with the T2 comparison. However none of the original film elements were used to create these 4K releases. They were all done from existing digital intermediates.
They basically put makeup on a digital image to try and make them look modern.
It clearly hasn't worked. John and I just played with the settings on his system to see what we could achieve. The HDR is the biggest factor in making the image look more life like but of course not settling change will bring back what the algorithm took out.
Trevor
It's not exactly the best ever 4K disc Jim but we did achieve pretty good results with it. If you're watching on a telly try putting the backlight down low and see if that gives you a eureka moment similar to when we set the laser lamp down to 50%. That might not have made the worst excesses of the re-mastering of this one look entirely natural but it made it look a whole lot better. Much of it from that point did genuinely look very good. We didn't run it all but from what we saw my conclusion was that after all the fiddling about to get the best out of it, I thought it was the best of all the home video formats available. The most involving to suck you into the film anyway. Sound is best on the LaserDisc though so if I do get this particular 4K I'll have to sort that out next.
American Graffiti is the best example of cleaning up a low quality film into a pretty successful 4K video release. Again there were scenes in that which didn't look right but overall it is so much more involving than the dreary looking Blu-ray. Other opinions are available!
John.
salut belle vidèo sur se film
Merci Alain. La vidéo principale est sur la chaîne de Trevor.
John.
The problem for fans who want an authentic restoration is that James Cameron doesn’t want that. He, along with Peter Jackson, Ridley Scott, Michael Mann and the head cheerleader George Lucas, is a revisionist. These brilliant filmmakers seem to have developed a phobia of film grain and want their movies to look like they were shot yesterday on an Arri Alexa rather than 20/30/40 years ago on photochemical film. It’s their right to release their movies whatever way they choose, but it makes me sad as they are actually harming them. Another very long video from another channel compared different releases at different resolutions, freeze framing certain shots and zooming in. This revealed that although the higher resolution and other UHD advantages helped in some ways, the removal of grain also removed detail (stubble smoothed off faces, along with fine lines, that kind of thing). Detail was also lost in blown out highlights compared to other earlier formats. Clearly the AI technology isn’t there yet to do what Cameron wants it to do, but getting rid of the grain and making things smoother seems to make him happy. Such a shame, but I suspect this is as good as it gets for the foreseeable future.
I agree with you but George Lucas did achieve something quite special with American Graffiti and you only have to look at the lacklustre Blu-ray to see that. People generally don't know what TechniScope is so you can't blame them for getting it all wrong and perhaps getting a little upset that it never looked like most other 35mm films because it didn't as TechniScope is half the frame area within the 35mm film. That particular film now looks beautiful on a big screen even though I'm sure some detail has disappeared if you zoom right in. Fortunately, we don't see films or videos that way unless we're scrutinizing them for whatever reason.
I haven't seen much of Ridley Scott's work in 4K video but I have seen much of the Alien 4K which on my system looked like a close match to my 35mm print of that film. Gladiator probably needed a lot of work though as that wasn't full frame anamorphic 35mm due to all the computer effects so only a Super 35 which meant it couldn't look as good. Not that I've seen the 4K disc of that one.
When Disney first started doing these sort of 'restorations' to their classic feature length cartoons back in the early 1990's they didn't notice that characters shadows and all sorts of other artwork had simply disappeared. I suspect the people carrying out the work nowadays are more aware of what is being removed but reach a compromise within each scene to try to get the end product looking as close to the best available on 4K. Unfortunately, the best is shot 15/70 IMAX so it's rarely going to be entirely successful for the true film enthusiast but to the average, casual purchaser and viewer I suspect they get it just about right most of the time.
John.
@@moviecollector5920 Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. With Ridley Scott and Michael Mann's revisionism I was thinking more of their approach to changing colours in subsequent releases to make their films look more 'modern', if you know what I mean; matching then-current trends in digital grading versus the more natural tones of the original colour timing back when they were first released. As far as Techniscope goes I am still patiently waiting for UK releases of Sergio Leone's westerns to see what can be done with them! I may have to give up and import the US versions.
@@cranp4764 There was quite a bit of controversy about Michael Mann's 4K release of HEAT but fortunately I could remember how that one looked in the cinema quite well and the 4K is accurate. People didn't believe me of course but the case against me failed after two projectionists commented to confirm they too couldn't believe how dense the 35mm prints were with one projectionist swapping the film onto a projector in another studio to check the lamp wasn't on the way out. There was some tweaking here and there but that's because digital video editing is definite and consistent whereas film grading in a lab is variable and is rarely going to fully satisfy the film makers intended and desired look.
As for the Dollars trilogy of TechniScope films I had several people comment that one or more of those three discs was among the best 4K discs they had seen. At the time I questioned them directly how that could be possible given the low quality origins. Then I saw how American Graffiti had turned out and I've been eating humble pie ever since. None of them knew what TechniScope was of course. To most people a film to video transfer is all that needs to be known but it's not as simple as that. The work that is being done to produce films as 4K discs is incredible. Some don't turn out quite as we would hope but in the main the work - and the effort - that goes into offering the best possible quality is exceptional. And all for the cost of around £25 to £30 for a new release.and as little as a tenner if we're prepared to wait for a while.
John.
I have True Lies on Laserdisc and DVD and now 4K. Although I have yet to watch the 4K version I have to say the laserdisc was the best at the time. The opening scene shook my theater room but when I went to the DVD it sounded thin, like it was missing something. Video wise I’m not so sure about, but it sounds as if the producers and video engineers didn’t do this movie justice and that doesn’t sound like the kind of thing we expect from James Cameron.
I'm beginning to think that the advent of 5.1 digital sound and above gave us lesser sound Scott. I well remember many Dolby Stereo films in cinemas sounding incredible and then not being anywhere near as impressed with DTS and Dolby Digital when they first appeared. We're watching a lot of LaserDiscs on my telly and with my second sound system lately and they all sound pretty darned wonderful.
John.
@@moviecollector5920 The original DTS CD platter system that linked 5 or 6 discs (each with separate sound elements) to the camera -- was an astonishing thing to hear, in '93. I went to college with a girl who worked at an AMC theater when they installed the entire system and tested and ran it for the employees, so she told me all about it. And I still to this day, credit DTS's original system with being a large part of the word-of-mouth that Jurassic Park got; which contributed greatly to the film's success in certain markets where the system was installed. Because John, it was just amazing to hear. But it was also apparently very expensive to install and maintain. And a theater manager once told me it wreaked havoc on the theater's electric bill. DTS soon began simply adding a digital strip to the side of the film print. And I've read articles wherein people argue over which came first with this: DTS or Dolby Digital. Mainly because DTS argue they were working on adding a digital soundtrack to a print for so long, that supposedly Dolby Digital stole the idea and took it to a patent office, before DTS could get there. LoL I cannot, of course, confirm that; I only read that in an industry report. So, anyway, once DTS devolved their digital sound system to only a couple of tracks that run down the side of the film, the thrill was completely gone. And thus, you end up where we are now. Digital sound is sometimes clearer, but noticeably lacking in luster in comparison with Jurassic Park, or even the kind of booming, expansive Dolby track that accompanied the original theatrical release of Outland in 1981. Sadly, the showmanship is missing these days.
@@DrRichardCranium I think the digital soundtracks are the theatrical soundtracks it's just that there not such good quality as the Dolby Stereo matrixed four track sound we enjoyed before most cinemas switched to Dolby Digital, Digital Theatre System and Sony Dynamic Digital Sound. The stereo separation of the digital soundtracks is undoubtedly better but the separation appears to thin out the quality. I need to play with my main sound system some more because I have it running in full digital THX mode and it's possible standard THX mode may give the overall sound more weight.
John.
Before I even watch Trevors video, on my system I thought True Lies looked incredible. I thought the same with The Abyss and I'll have to see what I think of Aliens tomorrow night. As always it's different strokes for different folks, and all our system configurations are different.
It was too bright on my system and that's due to the HDR being applied a little too liberally and the fact that my video projector often requires sunglasses to look at the image! I spend most of my fiddling time reining in the brightness but this disc was one of the most extreme examples so far. I've had to watch a few with the laser lamp output set to the lowest 50% setting but it was a eureka moment with this one.
I don't think True Lies is a brilliant 4K but we achieved pretty good results in the end. No end of professional calibration would have sorted it though so it's a perfect illustration of what a waste of money that outlay would be. I expect I'll actually buy this disc sometime now that I've seen that it can be made to look better (to my eyes) than all other home video formats. The challenge then would be to get it to sound as powerful as the LaserDisc.
John.
I'm looking forward to your thoughts on The Abyss and Aliens John.
Our systems are all different but we should all be able to have set up to get very close to looking the same.
Obviously one master is Made for an one title and we should all be seeing the same image quality.
It's the limitations of our individual equipment and if people don't do any kind of picture set up that leads to so many differing views. Even a cheap TV and player combination can be made to look impressive if the right settings are made to it in the room and light level it's viewed in.
Trevor
I have aliens on 4k disk its the best version from the film.
But alien 4k was done way better and one of the best 4k transfers out there.
Aliens didn't look as good as Alien but it couldn't really because it wasn't a full frame anamorphic 35mm, just a matted 1.85:1 35mm. Size makes a difference which is stating the bleeding obvious but it's not obvious to everyone that there are myriad different 35mm formats out there. I haven't watched the Alien 4K all the way through but I looked at enough of it to be able to see it compared favourably to my 35mm print. John.
The Spanish blu-ray isn't official. The laws there allow it to be released but it has nothing to do with the company that owns the rights. Its still basically a bootleg but a completely legal one.
There was a digital VHS release of it and it's possible the company with the rights to that had a contract with a loophole in it that meant they could market the film in high definition. That would make a Blu-ray legal. John.
I got the 4k disc and it looks bad, and to make it Even worse the disc wouldnt play twenty min in. What a dissapointment.
Once you get a replacement disc Ben make sure you have your brightness right down. If you're watching on a telly perhaps play with the backlight because most people tend to whack that up full and this disc probably needs it down really low. That might effect a 'repair' for this particular 4K in the same way putting the laser lamp down to 50% in my projector did. John.
Ok thanks. @@moviecollector5920
Firstly just want to say huge fan of the show. One thing I need to say is that todays labels doing these Blu Restorations are absolutely getting every master or color correction absolutely incorrect. Actually I would say nine of time times they are not able to get the intended vision of the film maker. A lot these guys are in house & take liberties on what they feel works best. Also grain is a key part of film. Once you start eliminating grain from the picture not only have you lost light, you have lost the illusion of movement. The bottom line is all these people have remaster is basically to make sure the film looks like how it is supposed to look. For me this is not a question about digital vs analog. Its question of what's right and wrong. My time is spent collecting 35mm films & I also screen film at the local art houses here in Canada. Also I scan as much Raw Negatives I can with out doing any liberties but sorting out minor things. This misconception that grain is dirt, is incorrect. I dont care if people shoot on film. But exploiting classic films is criminal for this isnt about money anymore this protecting the work...
It's a home video release though Peter and most purchasers will be expecting 4K discs to all look pretty much the same. We know that can't possibly be the case but these are home videos and they're cheap and have to appeal to a mass market. We did manage to get this 4K of TRUE LIES looking good in here but I don't suppose many people would be able to achieve what we did. I think you have to have a background in film so you're not averse to all the fiddling required. I rarely notice film grain when I'm projecting film. It has the unique random element on every print and it's simply not apparent like it is when it's fixed into place following a cine to video transfer. The fact that transfers now are computer scans means all edges to anything tend to get picked up and enhanced and that means edges of film grain too. That's my theory and it has been confirmed in a couple of classic film restoration extras on 4K/Blu-ray disc releases.
TRUE LIES on 4K isn't as bad as it first appears. I do think I'll stick with my PAL LaserDisc though but that's probably mainly because I never found this film to be particularly repeatable. The 3x400ft Super 8 release appeals to me though. I just wish I could afford it!
John.
@@moviecollector5920To a point I agree, most people are watching their movies in a living room with full lights on & an LED. But most people who collect now a days are fussy when it comes to maters like this, the big problem is now its really affecting the dynamics of the picture. From texture to over all softness, its giving a very lifeless feel to the image. It also does not feel natural. This is really affecting the soul of the film & I am not trying to be nostalgic about. The contrast between image & the tweaks are it doesn't look right. A lot of these post production engineers who are doing the remastering are changing the way the film looks based on what they think. That's taking serious liberties with classic films & its over all history. Also you know how you said this is mainly for home use? Well most cinemas these days are showing DCP's of repertory films.. So actually this is actually being presented in a wide public audience now. Sure some of these films look maybe decent on the LED TV or your smart phone. But on a projector level it does not translate the same at all.. It actually looks worse, then how it does on an LED. The cinema I program at is maybe the only one in Canada who still consistently shows 35mm.. In the UK there is the Prince Charles & BFI. But more and more people are watching these classic films for the first time incorrectly. Do we need to live in a world of Instagram filters even when we are watching films that made us feel like we were watching magic before? It doesn't feel like magic anymore. Imagine if we kept going in on art like we are with remastering films over and over again. There is only so much that can be done. What needs to be done is education. I know you care because I see how you talk about film. You know your stuff. I mean u have a projector in your house like myself & QT. We all have to start at least exploring the fact that this is starting to become a serious issue with our genre atm. I can keep going on and on about this but I just want to say, I recently discovered your show & I can see the passion you have for cinema.. Love it mate. I even subscribed and like you, I've been collecting since the laserdisc era... Would love to have a chat with you, when I am in the UK next.. I live part time in Canada & part time in the UK as I am a full time musician & work for Goldie who lives in the UK. So i am back and forth between both spots. Was even thinking of doing some 35mm screenings out there. Vinegar syndrome sponsors a lot of my shows so i am thinking about it, but just for fun.. Maybe charity even... Would love to chat with ya more on this topic, topic being the current landscape of physical media and in some ways we have seen a boom again but its coming at a bit of a cost now.... Anyways here is my email NC17media@hotmail.com and here is more about me.. instagram.com/ncseventeen/ (I have a theater like yours in my house) 35mm & 16mm ofcourse 4k & laserdisc as well... also here is my artist page - www.metalheadz.co.uk/artist/nc-17 if anything would love to have someone to go hunting with for films.. or check out stufff at the princes charles. Keep up the great work mate. Hope to hear back from ya :) Sorry for the poor grammar.. take care
@@moviecollector5920 Yes but the grain is some i do actually notice cause film gives you that art of illusion that there is constant movement. When you erasing a lot of those grains movement stops. The picture becomes flat. Also the sad thing is these remasters are often playing more at cinemas than their original film negatives. For me this has never been a debate of Digital vs Analog. I am an artist I get. I work on both mediums for music. But this more a debate of right vs wrong. Using this digital improvements to get it right instead of trying to add on top of always. Plus its ok for art to age. People age so can art. All I am asking is we try and keep at as close to the artists original vision as much as possible. Brother is a big issue atm. Right now these restorations are feeling like cheap Botox...
@@nc-1715 I agree with you Peter but we have to accept that cinema is predominantly an attraction for children up to the age of about mid-twenties and they've grown up playing video games. This tends to give a skewed sense of reality whereas we grew up enjoying film and that is our reality in terms of how films should look. It is more like reality of course but for cinema to survive it has to sell tickets and adults above a certain age are no longer regular cinema-goers. That's my impression of what I see as the demographic for cinema today. James Cameron does seem to want his films to look as much like a modern video movie than a film which I do not agree with but it's up to him. If he's right and it gets youngsters into cinemas and generates revenue for both cinemas, distributors and studios via cinema rentals and home video sales/streaming then it's not all bad. I'm not sure everyone views films as art like you and I do. Seems odd now I've just typed that but I think it's true.
John.
@@moviecollector5920 I feel its so unnecessary. Its becoming very gimmick. UHD biggest benefits come from its storage size. With 4k UHD we can preserve 35mm masters & 70mm exactly or close to how they were intended to be presented. They are using this mediums power in all the wrong places. We should see it as more preservation.. I really believe scanning 35mm negatives is the future of saving film & maintaining its soul. But the labels need to stop trying to make it better than . How about just right. All it takes is some research some stills and some stock for example/refrence. They should be capturing the spirt of the film so it feels as close as it was when it first came out.
It's different but is on par with T2 and Aliens. Some shots are very problematic some others very defined, A lot of artificial intelligence was used to create this disc, as well as a massive use of dnr. They tried to correct some blurry shots by creating a combination of fake bokeh effects and image enhancement and It looks Bad. No real HDR grading work was done, just a minium Rec.2100 HDR P3-D65 limited 203nits reference conversion that looks over-exposed.
I work as a colorist, that's clearly top 10 of the worst looking disc of the format.
And yet we actually managed to get it looking pretty good. If it were one of my favourite films I'd be disappointed but it's not and I rather enjoyed setting about getting the best out of it. A challenge for anyone so with your experience in the industry Spike see what you can do with your system. Having said that, it may not be possible to achieve reasonable or good results on some systems but if you do watch on a telly it could be that setting the backlight low might have the same eureka moment as putting my laser lamp down to 50%. This isn't the only disc where the 50% lamp has worked a miracle though, I've had quite a few since getting this little projector just over a year ago. I think Optoma thought people would be using it in daylight or with the lights on which I suppose is what people do if they play video games and that is why the light output is so excessive.
John.
@@moviecollector5920If your are interested I have uploaded a corrected HDR color grading clip on my RUclips Channel and I am pretty sure you will have a better viewing experience on your system than the UHD HDR disc.
I see all the peoples issues with these movies on 4K. If you are not sure and you don’t trust James Cameron anymore, just don’t buy his stuff Stay Blu-ray/bootlegs It’s a simple as that no one forces, you to buy the 4Ks . another point is some peoples equipment Let it be the 4K player the 4k TV. They’re set up in general might be better than other peoples . the average person that has a 4K TV and a 4K player It might looks fine on their set up. Bottom line if you’re not sure about a release that’s on 4K and you got burned in the past don’t buy it .
I agree. But now that we know this 4K release can be made to look pretty good how about we recommend a purchase so people can put their system to the test and fiddle about and learn? There possibly hasn't been a better 4K disc to play with in that regard. John.
Got True Lies and Aliens 4k. The Abyss comes tomorrow. True Lies has to be the worst 4k I have ever seen? It looks like a cgi cartoon? Shocking. Aliens is 100 times better looks excellent. I'm actually thinking of selling True Lies.
Look at the full video over on Trevor's channel Lborg and you may find what we achieved works on your system too. I think you're watching on a telly so try setting the backlight much lower that you ever would normally because that might have the same effect. It's not the worst looking 4K I've seen as I've seen a few pretty awful examples but Gemini Man is still top of that list. There's absolutely no way of making that one look real but most of True Lies can be sorted with a little jiggery pokery and hopefully we've laid the groundwork for that for everyone to make it much easier.
John.
@@moviecollector5920 It's the DNR that's the problem. It just looks very bad! I have also found HDR can be too bright in some 4k films True Lies is quite bright. I still have my old plasma tv and the brightness is very low yet films still look superb on it. Your eyes adjust in a dark room. Projectors are easily bright enough. Cheers John.
Well, you already know that I was waiting for this one. I saw the adjoining video, and it was wonderful stuff.
I just read your comment on there Timothy. I think Trev will be chuffed to bits to be getting some many positive comments. It's about time this happened for him.
John.
Thanks Timothy.
Trevor
@@doublebillmovies you are most welcome.