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Jonathan Pageau - The Occult, The Devil & Rock n' Roll | The Winston Marshall Show
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- Опубликовано: 19 авг 2024
- Kanye West, Madonna, Sam Smith and Harry Styles, these megastars of pop music are household names, their music pulses through stereos and headphones across the world. But do these modern icons represent something deeper?
Winston speaks with Jonathan Pageau, expert in ancient symbolism, one of the most influential men in Christian Orthodoxy and one of “The Three Orthodoxmen Of The Apocalypse” according to Rod Dreher. Jonathan explains the deep archetypes belying pop music and rock n’ roll over the last 100 years.
From Johnny Cash’s Heroes Journey to the androgynous Prince, Bowie and Bjork. It turns out there are deep archetypal characters belying the lights and the makeup.
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#Johnthebaptist #satan #johnnycash #music #Jesus #harrystyles #madonna #music #nathanielrateliff #fatherjohnmisty #bobdylan #hermaphrodite #androgyny #adamandeve #jung #orthodox
Jonathan is getting better and better recently. This was absolute gold.
I agree although one other thing to keep in mind is the more you listen to him the easier it can be to understand so it might be something in you as well
@@I4MWH014M Good point
Agreed, on both counts! And I also agree with the point made in the first reply. So there! Cheers, all!
Yes, but he "reads" Winston, and interrupts because he knows what he's attempting to ask, and I don't know what Winston is thinking, so I wish he wouldn't interrupt him so much.
@@I4MWH014M First of all, occultism is self-empowerment(not power over but power within). Second, Hollywood stars don't count as they are not members of the Dragon Rouge(humanistic philosophy where man becomes a God with the Left Hand Path) led by Thomas Karlsson.
This group has an academic approach where one has to research and put effort and also have knowledge of dead obscure languages.
Thomas Karlsson is a Swedish academic who has PH D in religious studies and ancient languages and also believes that one has work for magic, not just say God is within you with instant discovery like most occult groups or New Age.
Karlsson's lyrics were formerly used by Christofer Johnsson(also a member of Dragon Rouge) who is a founder of the Swedish symphonic metal band Therion
I feel like you just scratched the surface! I would love to see the 2 of you get together again. 😊
When he pointed out that Mardi Gras is a Christian festival, he never pointed out that many Christian Festivals have Pagan roots. People have been arguing for centuries over whether pagan is inherently evil. He doesn't even touch on that
@@a.alistair9087thats a huge topic which he touches on extensively on his own channel across tens of hours.
"...entertainers are like the scum of the earth..." Omg, I love you , Jonathan! :)
True. If you don't believe it just look at Hollywood. Is there any other industry where so many perverted, evil people practice their trade? I can't think of anything close.
@viramandybur Politicians are the scum of the Earth, not entertainers.
@@johnpolitis7929 They're one of the same.
@@jamstagerable and so are capitalist pigs with stupid copyright law.
@@johnpolitis7929 politics is no different than Hollywood movies in the USA now…they do not do anything for the people they are to represent…it is been entirely taken over by political friends and rich donors…it is fake…
I love this conversation. Winston’s mind is being blown. Our minds are being blown. We are scared because it feels like the world is ending and yet there is sense to it and hope for resurrection. Just wow. 🤯
The Ubermensche.
If you are a Christian, then this notion is entirely ungodly. This entire thing of "flirting with the devil" is what has slowly led to what we see now. Our society is more godless now than it ever has been. Things are coming to a close just as the Bible tells us regarding the last days. Funny how this guy talks about things being backwards or upsidedown during this short period of carnival, as that is directly mentioned by Paul in the Bible as a sign of the times. Letting go on purpose in order to reboot back to the norm is simply a case of willful sin. It sets the stage to continually slip further into sin and to feel no need to repent. To do this is to slowly normalize sinful behavior. It is literally a road to hell, a road which is easy and wide.
This interview is nonsense that misses the entire point of living one's life for God. There is no hope for resurrection through this trash. People who indulge this is a big part of the problem with Christianity today...it seeks to make excuses for and to excuse sin.
And Kanye, he us not a real Christian. You will know people by their fruit. He uses it for his own advantage and his understanding of it is very skewed. Just read your Bible. Then the truth comes out with him right back into Balenciaga and all of that crap. Exploring extremes is a sin, not Biblical at all. Not once does God support such actions. Everything being discussed here is paganism.
Either you believe your Bible or you don't. There is no in between. If it is not of God, it is of the devil. If you get mad and attack me over my saying this, then just keep in mind that the Bible says that the truth is like heaping burning coals on the sinners head.
Winston was in the business for a long time.
This is great coming out the weekend before Carnival here in Europe. I‘m surprised Winston doesn’t know about it. Karneval is big here in Germany, especially in Cologne and further down in the Black Forest, Bavaria on down through Austria, the Balkans…
The last worldwide anthem I think may have been when Shakira sang the theme song for the football/soccer World Cup in South Africa… and those lyrics were definitely carnivalesque. Back in the day, it was Whitney Houston who practically churned out anthems…
And as for Madonna, she’s morphed into the Evil Queen, struggling to hold on to her youth…
I visited Cologne years ago and we arrived on Shrove Tuesday. We saw some of it in the street and more on the telly when we were back in the hotel room.
The next day was so quiet it seemed surreal. That has stuck with me, and every time I hear Jonathan talk about Carnival it always comes to mind.
You're bang on about Madonna. Funny how she chose that stage name to shock and troll people when you compare her to then and now. Just shows symbolism happens and you'd better be careful what you're playing with!
Nice job, Winston. This was one of Jonathan’s best interviews.
Thank you. Anyone here new check out Paul vanderklay too and his countless interactions with Pageau. Pageau was mentioned multiple times by JBP on the last Rogan. With Rogan back to RUclips I think it is Pageaus time!
Yes! This is a great conversation and looking forward to what the other channels make of it
I haven't watched Peterson in a few years..since finding Pageau. I always wonder if anyone else is similar.
Aka Jim Morrison 😂
Hmm. I wonder if Joe would vibe with him. Its a conversation that could go either way. Jonathan could blow his mind entirely or they might just be speaking different languages. I’d be curious to see it if only to give Jonathan the exposure he deserves
Re: Sympathy For The Devil. I've never heard that song as "revering" the Devil. Remember, it's the Devil singing the song. He's the master manipulator, the Father of Lies, and he's trying to convince the listener that they should feel sympathy for what he has had to go through. I've always seen the song as "revealing" just how cunning the Devil is. Just my take though.
I came to the same conclusion about "The Devil's Advocate" especially at end when Al Pacino comes off the hinges goes into his rant. If you listen closely, you actually hear the devil convict himself.
.....a cautionary tale.
Your take is accurate. This conversation is insanely ungodly and deceptive.
Guess who else was there behind all those events 👃
I read sympathy is about how the devil is blamed for the sins of man.
You are right totally!
Interesting conversation. Jonathan’s phrase „the end/bottom of Christianity“ reminds me of Dante and Virgil climbing down the Devil‘s hindquarters and then everything flips and he’s climbing up towards Purgatory…
Literally read this passage 30 minutes before reading your comment. Weird.
@@alexandercharette5282 Let‘s call it a serendipitous coincidence, shall we? 😃 Do you follow Jonathan?
That is exactly how he means it. He's used your exact Dante example to explain this concept in other interviews.
@@bottomtext7700 I‘ll have to check those out, if you could point me towards those interviews. I know he was reading TDC a while back…
as far as i am concerned, Jonathan is the most profound and relevant speaker in the world today.
This conversation ties so many of my own past personal experiences together. Seeing the massive celebrations surrounding Carnival in Brazil in 2010 definitely makes an impact on imaginatively processing the world we are living in today in 2024.
"Brazil is the county of the future" is what we say.
@@thiagonunes4294 I certainly hope not.
@@conantheseptuagenarian3824 we can only pray, but the world is becoming and more a clown world.
Great interview. The simplicity of the questions forcedJonathan to explain it as simple as he could. Do more! You bring out the best in Jonathan.
I believe what Pageau is referring to may be the “end of an era,” so to speak. The prosperity and culture that stem from the West’s victory in World War II is coming to an end.
We’ve all kind of lived in the shadow of WWII for years and the culture that developed when soldiers came home to settle down with their wives and children.
The nuclear family living in a nice suburban neighborhood; the kids growing up and going to college to establish a good career for themselves; encouraging their children to do the same. That image has been in the back of our minds for such a long time that we’ve taken it for granted as almost a given. While there have certainly been modifications to that vision throughout the past several decades, it was never the norm.
People really didn’t do that (or at least do that as much) before the end of World War II in 1945. From what I remember when I was in school, the suburbs were developed for the numerous budding families of WWII vets, specifically. That fact that we started taking artists and entertainers seriously as these genuinely creative forces (at least in the White House’s purview lol) is a sign of high prosperity, both social and economic.
I think, maybe every 100 years, we go through some big shift. World War I, the Great Depression, and the Spanish Flu. Things were bleak back then - I’m sure there were a lot of folks forecasting the end of the world in the early 20th century as well. But we made it out as an entirely different culture.
I think that's what Pageau means when he says “the edge of something.” Things are going to cap off and out of that, something new will be born.
The wests victory in ww2? The Soviet union almost single-handedly defeated Nazigermany.
But i get what you mean, the cultural win of the so called west. Rise of capitalism and so on. Or do you really think that the West was winning the war on Germany? Then it proves my point. In Reality the Soviet union won, but on the culture front the west succeeded so that this Narrative could evolve.
COVID was our end of an era. So many things that were temporary replacements for the real thing became the new default. e.g. psychologists seeing patients online, restaurants not printing out their menus because you can see them on your phone, conversations that could reasonably be had in person being held online, etc.
Right on 🎉
And the MARXIST regime voted for it in November 6 2008 HOPEY 🌄 CHANGY 🕋🪰
Read the fourth turning...great book
Wonderful conversation! I love Pageau's conversations.
Such an intelligent, reasonable discussion.
When so many Christians are just judging, bashing, condemning, and seeking legislation against what frightens them, here is a conversation seeking understanding.
I've always considered all music just human expression from where the musician or the listener is in their journey and Pageau fleshes out that idea brilliantly.
It's because he's an Orthodox Christian. The legislative angle usually comes from Protestants. Christianity is about repentance, not moralism.
Personally, as a writer of songs, verse and short story, the journey from creating in the secular vein for 35 years and then turning to a Godly, praise positive writing has been a challenge. It has not been abrupt, but learned and inspired. Who we are creatively as humans, though saved in Christ, are indeed still humans and sinful at that. There is a 'push and pull' in the process. We do need to interject the flesh to get to and achieve the spirit. There is a line in the sand. The beauty is in a creativity that allows one to approach that line, apply it, but not cross over to the other side. I believe, faith in God hones this.
pageau has talked often about how christian pop art is terrible not that it has to be but bc of how difficult it is
I'm in the same boat. We can't shy away from darkness, because we are children of winter, and our world is dark --- to pretend otherwise comes off as corny, it does not engage people because it's not true.
What we can show, and what can be quite powerful, is how the darkness turns to light. When you are in the swamp you need to watch your footing, but sometimes you will catch reflections of the stars when the conditions are right.
Pageau talking about Dio
This is awesome
I recall his grandmother used the horns to repell not the devil, but the evil eye. Functionally identical regardless.
Dude, you've been gone too long in the midnight sea. 😂
He has spoken about it before with Christopher Ruocchio
@@rcordinerWhat's becoming of him?
We'll know for the first time, if we're evil or divine. - Dio
Listening on Spotify - which is better for my commute and housework.
This is great so far!
UPDATE: Winston's voice gets quiet towards the end. Volume was almost maxxed out in the car.
Excellent guest. More of this!
Jonathan is just at a different level. Wow
Now were addressing the real issue. I love this. I stopped listening to music and my brain is finally getting uncluttered and alert. It would resonate in my head and make me Lethargic
Stopped listening to music altogether? That would be tough for me. I workout everyday and listen to 70s-80s hard/classic/soft rock to keep me motivated and focused on lifting. It keeps me from thinking about pain and fatigue. I tried listening to podcasts and audio books, but it just didn't work. I feel I can compartmentalize the music with working out and not let it pull me down when I'm not in the gym. I know that some of the music I listen to contains lyrics that are promoting the dark side, and if I'm aware of it, I can rebuke it. At least, that's my hope.
@DetVen it is...trust me I give in a little and it feels good but I need a healthier outlet
@miked6426 I admire it! God Bless!
@@DetVenI, too am into fitness, but listening to music every day is inspiring and I love it. I won't stop listening, despite my beliefs in God. Try classical music if you haven't already. As a lover of ballet, it's so profoundly beautiful it might be helpful. Tbh, if I need to go all out on cardio, rave music from the early 90s is hard to beat, lol!!!
Man, if i had a band, id want Johnathon doing my album covers!
The eyes and ears are the windows to the soul. You play with fire in your naiveté.
Great convo.
Saddens me to remember that Camille Plagia had a part II of Sexual Personae where she went deep into these topics (pop and rock) and it just never happened for some reason.
Walk off the earth seems like a good example of a positive inspiring popstar-family
Great conversation Winston, you're really good at this. This particular conversataion convinced me to subscribe.
I have to agree. John is a really good speaker on these subjects. He does know what he is talking about. Very good!
Definitely need a part 2!!!
David Bowie prime example when it comes to this topic
"Dance magic dance, jump magic jump."
His cover of hurt is absolutely beautiful
There is carnival, and there is sabbath. One at edge of hell, another at edge of heaven. Go to the edge young man.
Excellent conversation! It's wonderful to see you with your own show getting great guests already, and having the amazing Pageau really shows the high quality you're maintaining! Well done! Keep going strong!
Joe Schimmel of 'Good Fight Ministries' (on RUclips) would be the best person to interview on Rock and Roll and the Devil. Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath honor Aleister Crowley. That tells you all you need to know about those bands.
no it doesn't as they often used crowly as a symbol not a model. Also Bowie himself, who was into crowly when stoned out his bonce, said quite clearly, that crowly and those kind of things are childish, ego-driven endeavours, that one grows out of
@@malcomgladstone Bowie was blowing smoke. You may want to see who bought Crowley's house.... I don't think he "outgrew it."
Yes he did from what I heard . I mean in terms of the way he was into it, in the 70s and early 80s- when he was on coke /H and had sex with anything with a heart beat .@@southerngal9374 He was curious and big probably kept reading up , but he wasn't practising ;ike he used to
BY the way it was Jimmy Page who owned Crowley Gaff not Bowie, as far as i am aware
@@southerngal9374
I played one of my songs backwards once and heard "lucifer" clear as day in the recording. It was on my production software. Scary.
They do that on loads of music videos on Utube.
It’s so interesting to watch someone grapple with this way of thinking…Winston is trying but it truly shows how utterly blind modernity made us to thinking that was universal a few centuries ago.
and that's why new ageism and polytheistic religions are so popular, because they explicitly talk about subjects that were implicit back then
I too was noticing Winston’s difficulties adapting to this way of thinking, in fact just as I read your comment! He’s doing admirably, but I realized how fortunate (in some ways) I am, having been “blessed” with a certain neurological predisposition which makes these subjects not only appealing to me, but it’s like my life’s blood. As such, I’ve been actively studying archetypes, philosophy and symbolism, as well as ufos, sacred geometry and lost civilizations for decades. Like I said, it’s in my blood. So I guess I take it for granted, and I actually enjoyed watching Winston “grapple” with shifting his paradigm. Cheers!
Meni je ovo potpuno razvodnjavanje ozbiljnosti same teme djavola i zla. Njegovo najveći uspeh je da ubedi ljude da djavo ne postoji. Vrlo opasno za spasenje.
He's not speaking about the morality of any of this. He's simply pointing out the pattern that is playing out. Repentance is the only way to change what is happening.
Excellent conversation!! Thank you gentlemen!!
Spanish speakers say carnaval (carnival) is a reference to carne de baal (meat for baal)
And human sacrifices were make to Baal.
Chant is uplifting. it has a calming effect on the nervous system. Perhaps to some peace and calm is boring.
Up, down, left, right. 360 degrees. Down and out. On the up and up. Left behind. Doing the right thing. It is all metaphysical. Our mental relationship to the physical realm. Energy is omnipresent and all encompassing.
This conversation is like really good meal.
I heard Dio say in an interview that the specific symbol his grandmother was referring to with the hand gesture was "the evil eye". It's supposed to ward off evil.
Really think this conversation enlightens the truth of reality & the intersection of the spiritual and physical. During the end part of the discussion, it gave light to why someone like Oliver Anthony appealed/appeals to so many people as he is writing an Anthem and looking up!
Pop music has changed so much.
Really enjoying the wrestling and interaction between thoughts from a Protestant shaped mind and an Orthodox shaped mind.
Nice to hear a sane, nuanced conversation about this 👏
There is no shortage of Christians making metal. Razorfist has a great video about Alice Cooper who was and got back to Christianity, even making Christian albums. Don't forget born-again Dave Mustaine! And one of the greatest metal songs of all time, Creeping Death by Metallica, about the 10th plague in Egypt!
Living sacrifice, Memphis may fire, zao, oh sleeper, project 86, pod, all great Christian metal bands😊
@@josflorida5346 thanks for the recommendations 😀
@@sillygoose4472 any time!
@@josflorida5346My first metal concert was Living Sacrifice THP and Project 86 DBL so I think 2000. It was awesome. I prefer Inhabit and Nonexistent for LS but Reborn and THP are great metalcore albums IMO. Zao is one of the first metalcore bands. I had all their albums up to TFIWKUH at one point. 90s metalcore was different than the cookie cutter scene in the mid 00s as bands had their own distinct sound and had more of a metal than a core edge. Regretfully I've never seen Zao live. I did get to see Stretch Armstrong in 04 with SOIA, Madball, Agnostic Front and Hatebreed. I'd say that was in the top 3 shows of my life. I also saw P.O.D. in 06 during the Warriors EP 2 tour with my sister. August Burns Red makes consistently great metalcore. Solid State Records had lots of hits. I had a large collection of their releases but gave most of them away to a friend at one point. Death metal is much better than metalcore. I'd recommend checking out Mortification, Crimson Thorn, Soul Embraced, Extol, Becoming the Archetype, Pantokrator, Tourniquet, HolyName and Hesychast. While not a Christian band, Job For a Cowboy has two excellent death metal albums with Genesis and Ruination with themes you would find in much of Christian metal. I'd also recommend the entire catalogue of the legendary Death fronted by Chuck Schuldiner. Not one mediocre song or album. All classics.
@@sillygoose4472Mustaine is in my top 5 metal guitarists list and Creeping Death is one of my favorite Metallica tracks. RTL is my favorite album of theirs.
Wow great episode, who knew you could have such deep conversations on music and pop culture
Dude spent all that time justifying sin, like “well, it’s not that bad”. What a shill.
its old world thinking. in the old world ppl understood sacrifice. appeasing demons by leaving food outside your home. thats what he means by gargoyles. orthodox is old world thinking. the idea is basically if you turn your head on it, it just comes out in weird ways. i guess it's humility and acceptance. i guess its not like puritanism. I tend to believe that because i think that's why there's a stereotype of American Christians being awful people. They're basically unable to deal with their constant need to be pure so they end up being jerks to everyone. kinda like you're being
Excellent discussion, thank you.
Jonathan biting his tongue when Michelangelo is praised haha
A great convo Christianity and music . Fascinating
Hell’s Bells documentary is an eye opener if you haven’t watched I recommend you do. God bless
How come that there is no attraction (but there is repulsion) towards what I am supposed to be attracted to? "People love it ...." says Jonathan so many times - do they??? Or they are just " supposed" to love the excesses of degeneracy and people do like to oblige..... This gets me down. The social pressure to love what I do not love.... (yes, carnivals, the freak shows of everyday life in 2024 etc....)
Not everyone is the same, but a lot of people do love these things, but it is usually because their passions are out of control and they lack a strong self-identity and thus fall to the whims of the times
St Augustine talks about performing the evil acts of the gods in theaters as a way to goad people into commiting the same acts to the detriment of their souls and to the delight of the gods who being eternal are eternally miserable.
Josh Scogin in Norma Jean and The Chariot are examples of heavy metal bands that were screaming repent. He and they definitely helped shake the scales off my eyes.
I saw The Chariot live with POD and Pillar 18 years ago and the singer slammed his mic down bc he didn't get a response from the crowd lmao.
@@ElonMuskrat-my8jy sweet! I am jealous, I heard their live shows were epic!
@@maxwellbliss Pillar was better. Solid sound and high energy. I honestly wasn't impressed with The Chariot and neither was the crowd. POD of course stole the show. Warriors EP 2 tour in 06. I don't remember the entire set list but they played lots of hits. I took my sister and she got to crowd surf for the first time.
Nice! Those days were a lot of fun!@@ElonMuskrat-my8jy
Timestamps please 🙏
All is permissible and lawful all is never good for my soul and beneficial none shall enslave me
Great interview! I think Taylor Swift may be sort of a teen girl or more childlike archetype.
Thankyou, that was very interesting. You are so right about folk and pop music going straight for the hips.
This conversation is encouraging me to get back to song writing.
The devil horns, Crowley took it from Sicily, where he use to go on holidays. As Sicilian I do that since I was born. We catholics when we baptised, we receive a necklaces with a cross and golden horns, it is our Sicilian culture.
“Most influential person in Orthodoxy”? Cmon man
An excellent discussion. Pageaus insights take us to the heart of reality.
Some metal music speaks against evil and oppression.
Sepultura’s Chaos AD album has lots of it.
"3 words repeated for 3 minutes" says Jonathan. The Freemasons would love that!
Or the Catholic church
@@ashleywebb2736 The Freemasons denied The Catholic Church.
@ashleywalker1411 I was referring to the ritual chanting that they have in common
@@ashleywalker1411 yet it is said even by some Catholic priests that the Freemasons have some members in The Vatican today…more than a few.
Joseph Campbell attended a grateful dead show and likened it to a dionysus ritual
Well they were funded by the See Eye Aye.
Metal is deeper than many would care to look into. There are reasons it has always been primarily European in both origin and popularity, and also reasons why the Judaeo-Christian mind has always had a difficult time understanding it. Much of what Metal taps into comes from a uniquely European and -most importantly - Pre-Christian and possibly even pre-Indo-Aryan place. It taps into very ancient, atavistic passions, archetypes, and iconography that, for lack of any better way of putting it are 'stirring to Western blood' . Some classical music also has these qualities, but they are more obvious and distilled in Metal. One could argue that it has the ability to possess a listener with an almost shamanic, or 'Odinic' energy and vitality. To call it 'Satanic' is to fundamentally misunderstand it. At its best and purest it's not about 'evil' . It's more about the primal, the vital, and the mystery of old magic. Less about demons and devils than it is about the thunder and the storm and the restless ocean of the human spirit. When the two sets of imagery and ideas conflict, it's usually because Judaeo-Christian influence causes people to confuse and mix theologies. Much like when the church turned the Old Gods into devils. Metal is music's old-growth forest existing apart from the clearcut wastelands and neatly planted row-forests of popular music. It worships energies older than the simple good/evil binary of Judaeo-Christianity.
Metal is also hugely popular in Latin America, where the paganism is recent in memory
No, metal music betrays itself in it's own naming. It's metal, iron maiden, black/death/speed/power metal. There is no silver or gold metal (is there even bronze metal?). Metal music necessarily belongs to the lower order, it even identifies itself as such. The lower order is the earth or, more often, the daemonic realm.
Judeo-Christian is an oxymoron.
@@DavidRemingtonthank you
@@alvareo92 yeah, the Aztecs hoarding the Christos semen of the serpent.
What exactly do you think they plan to do with that?
53:15 it sounds like Winston is struggling with the idea that everything Jonathan is saying sounds like reality is "just" a symbol. But a better way to think about it is that everything that exists has the imprint of the Logos.
"Exist" is used not so broadly. It doesn't mean that a human with wings sewn on is a dragon, or every desire is good.
In the crazy banshee-like irreverence of The Pixies, I get hit by the powerful reminder of the sublime grandeur of God. Black Francis being the son of a preacher man may have had something to do with that.
You can find a list online of "love songs to Lucifer." Generally they're a lot of songs about light and include the dawn and the sun. Angel of the Morning, for example.
Elvis integrated the rebel...he was a king...however, like many characters the sensitive side, etc. was the part that wasn't fully integrated into full self discipline. He was more than just a good looking guy who shook his hips. It would have been intresting to see him grow. Similarly with Jim Morrison, etc.
THe whole modern era has been of not integrating your sensitive side 'cause you're too busy with work all the time
He sure did 'grow'..
@@richardvanderdraay3800 You're right, he was human and had his flaws. How's your father?
Awesome interview!
This conversation has connected several dots and do appreciate there time.
That hand gesture was introduced into society by Anton lavey ,three different gestures [curses],as for metal not being satanic is wrong,it’s the frequencys,
Nonsense, sir. It's the ancient Mediterranean cuckold/horns gesture.
Thank you so much for sharing this podcast
Immanuel Velikofsky actually interprets all of our behaviour rituals such as discussed here , as relating to the catastrophic events that quite literally turned the world upside down and are mentioned in scripture and indeed folklore . He also suggests , that all of our cultural habits and costumes be that drama , sport or literature , indeed all resonate from the same devastating event . Worlds in collision or billiards to the non believers…..This presentation can serve as a good entry level for those that choose to see the kaleidoscopic rather than the mosaic ….
I found this fascinating!!! You should do another interview like this!
Music has been used to change society like fashion
Pageau repeatedly points out that we live in an upside down kind of world, but when he mentions transgression and rebellion he seems like he doesn't make the obvious connection that a lot of those things he calls transgressive are common and accepted -- that the real transgression today is reaching in the past.
The way I usually put it is that you cannot rage against the machine when you are the machine. It's a pretense of rebellion that you are having if you already have the power in your hands. If you truly want to rebel today, read Aristotle or Marcus Aurelius; find someone with whom you can build a family and marry them; and show some gratitude for the institutions we have in the western world and the way it brought billions of people out of poverty as they spread in the last century. Now, that is transgressive -- and you can tell because people will find you odd.
Because he's talking about ontological, not social, transgression. The weird paradox of the transgressive becoming the norm is his whole point - and makes for a deeper conversation than "reading books is the new punk", or whatever.
I think transgressional in the traditional sense.
Jonathan basicallly comes across as a Gnostic to me. It appears as if he worships symbols and his own mind over and above the gospel. He's overly concerned with trying to sound and appear smart and give an explanation for everything.
@@josephpchajek2685you are not understanding him then
Jonathan is very familiar with this phenomenon, and he's one of the more interesting voices exploring it
The fingers of the hand are each referencing one of the principle Greek Gods.
Mars - Thumb
Saturn - Forefinger
Jupiter - Middle Finger
Mercury - Little finger
The White Goddess.
Oliver Anthony is the an example of masculine John the Baptist character with a critique of the system. He performed something that hadn’t been done in years so it blew up. Simple economics he made something rare for the time which gave it value.
We’re at the end of the Age of Grace looking at the Great Tribulation
Brillent topic. ❤
As a Christian recording artist attempting to write songs in nuanced ways to reach a non Christian audience, I found this discussion fascinating…
Do not conform to the world around you. Plain and simple instruction from the Lord. Why do you think your idea which goes against His unstruction is a good idea? God's light will draw people, not your compromising your Christian values to sound more in line with the world. Give God some credit and stop trying to think you know better.
@@jamiebraswell5520 Jaime, I assume you would leave your comment/judgement after listening to some of my songs? On second thought, probably not… blessings, Jim
i think the issue is dividing it in that way. whether something is christian or not is a false concept. Like what pageau is saying about how modern pop music in a way is a devil's advocate, or advocating for Christianity by showing the world what the world is. You can never really escape the truth, you can't fail at it. So there's nothing to even attempt or try. I guess you would fail by approaching it with this division in mind, which is automatically against truth of reality. What is even a non-christian audience if you're christian? Christianity is quite human, it's about humanity. Any work of art can be considered Christian in some way. You can't escape truth. And I've seen it in how transgressive artists will often unconsciously contain truth in their art. It's like you can't escape it. the story of jesus is in everything. Pageau has also talked about this. Many movies and stories are basically just a retelling of jesus in some way. I think that's why Pageau mentions that Christian art is usually bad. Because they don't approach art in the correct way. At least for non sacred art. If you're making art that isn't sacred, then there's no point trying to pretend it is. It isn't to begin with. Its a folk song, or a story
@@MorrisAlanisette I tried to say that I am a Christian who is not writing contemporary Christian music. Yet my faith and world view are expressed in my songs, but usually not explicitly. Many who follow and like my music are the “beautiful strugglers” outside of the Christian faith
This conversation was awesome!!!
I wonder what to think of pop music that touches on more sublime themes and receive a status almost of contemporary psalms, like Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah or some stuff by Nick Cave. I mean, king David was a musician, and managed to marry kingship with artistry in a sense.
Very interesting!
I haven't made it all the way through this vid yet, but I'm curious what Jonathan would have to say about a genuine Satanic musical act that isn't using the devil as some sort of symbolism or metaphor, or as some sort of Carnival-like purging. I myself am a Theistic Gnostic Satanist, and have found myself having to explain one point he made to the common person. That being that most of these pop acts that have adopted the image of Satan lately are just playing dress up and playing of Western Christian ideas of the devil for the sake of shock and controversy as a form of publicity. There is, however, a Black Metal band from Sweden who's whole existence and output is meant to serve as a nexion for Lucifer. Their name is Watain, and their concerts are indeed an extended Satanic liminal zone ritual, and the stage becomes a consecrated ritual chamber/staging area. I really enjoyed this discussion, and was impressed with him approaching this subject from a standpoint of knowledge and research instead of religious dogma and paranoia. I would really would like to here what he would have to say about just this one band. Here is a link to an in depth video about this particular band. ruclips.net/video/EprFtWWOzio/видео.htmlsi=AWo4pq4sGMRBMvl0
Thanks for the link. Somehow I had missed this till now.
@@JamesGeere de nada. Hope it is somewhat insightful
This is amazing 👏 ✝️🙏
Around 25:20: “it’s not a moral question, but an ontological question…”. Nice
You know what's interesting is the end of a carnival isn't destruction, it's seeing it for what it is. I mean it's like seeing behind the curtains. You see the clowns taking off their makeup, taking down the scenery, etc. It loses it's magic in the daylight. Like when a stripclub shuts down, the lights come on and music turns off, and you see and hear the strippers hobbling around picking up scraps of money without any flourish. So, this may be what happens at the end of our societal carnival. Because I think there is that trend happening. I mean it's not just that the good has left society, but also the magic that kept people so attached to the bad. Meaning that everything is falling apart, including the carnival. It's not fun anymore and people are starting to see it for what it is
When Jonathan talks about the different kinds of music and how each one has its place, it makes me think of my never ending arguments about the tragedy that has become “worship music”. As a Catholic, I CRINGE at the Protestantization of our Liturgy, specially what has become of the ministry of music. I try to explain to my fellow Catholics that it’s not about what I prefer, it’s about the ontological nature of different rhythms. But I always end up feeling like I’m talking to the wall.
I'm from Montreal, and have been researching this subject as a born again Christian and musician for the past 14 yrs, and I just discovered Johnathan today. I'm subbing to his channel asap.. However, i respectfully disagree with Johnathan in regards to Taylor Swift being more "down home". She's now taken a dark satanic turn in certain aspects of her videos and live shows.
'Trying to think of a boring artist' made me immediately think of William Shakespeare. A regular guy who bypassed speaking for a generation and spoke for a millennia instead! :)
I would positively LOVE to see these two people do a reaction video to "Hi Ren".
I will disagree here. Sam Smith is truly presenting as evil in a way that Dio and Iron Maiden were not. His whole presentation is a promotion of an aggressive orthodoxy of hedonistic unconsciousness. That unconsciousness is the root of many evils. It draws a line between Orwell’s 1984 and Dante’s inferno.
this is how hedonism works --- you need delve lower and lower to get the same hit
besides the fact that Iron Maiden is a way better band (and that they were prominent higher up on the "slippery slope"), I don't think there's a qualitative difference in how they push the boundaries of moral order
No Crowley saw that in Sciliy and introduce it to the rest of the world. I do that since childhood without knowing 1 chord of music:)
Bloody hell (no pun intended), would that it were that all we had to worry about was 'pop music'. Felt like being caught in a never-ending loop of having to watch 'Flashdance'..
absolutely brilliant conversation
Brian Fallon from the gaslight anthem is today’s Springsteen ❤ loved this video