I always thought it was weird that Bruce respects Gordon for helping him as a child, but he still ropes his daughter into a life of vigilantism before ploughing her like a field.
The first part, I understand, as it's been stated that Barbara looks up to Batman. The second part... no I understand why people have a problem with it.
@@rodneyreeves5354 The vigilante part I understand, as Barbara has been stated to look up to Batman, leading her to become Batgirl before being paralyzed by Joker. The romance and sex part however, is where it goes too far.
@@Jedi-ge6lr the dude had sex with Gordon’s daughter!!! He had sex with someone half his age, his best friend’s daughter, and his son’s ex!!! Are you cracked?!
If there was ever a Batman X Batgirl paired then there should be one reason for that to happen. Which is to have Dick Grayson as Batman and Barbara Gordon as Batgirl, since Dick and Babs are around the same age and Dick Grayson is a popular pairing with Barbara Gordon.
Unless of course its the pre-Crisis continuity where, apparently, Barbara is a full grown adult while Dick is still in high school. No, seriously. The Bronze Age comics confirm that with her actually being a governor at some point of her career. This is one of those times where retcon to history is definitely a good thing.
@@BigK13372 oh yea, I honestly forgot that it really wasn’t up until Crisis on Infinite Earths back in 1985 where they retcon Barbara to be around the same age as Dick. And honestly I think that story really helped not only Babs but other Bat family members as well that were introduced prior such as Helena Bretinelli, Kate Kane, Bette Kane, and Jason Todd.
Please, don't remind me that Batgirl hooked up with Batman in The Killing Joke movie. Bruce is essentially another father figure for Barbara. Them hooking up is gross.
Her only relationship that felt natural was with Grayson. That’s it. When they’re together she’s more than his love interest, she’s her own character and person and Nightwing relies HEAVILY on her.
Bruce and Barbara is much more Bruce Timm’s fault than it is Paul Dini’s. Timm has shipped the two together on multiple occasions and is responsible, at least partly, with their pairing in the killing joke and, as far as I’m aware, he is the one who pushed for its inclusion in the DCAU (Batman the animated series, the new batman adventures, ect). Timm seems to put his ships in a lot of his projects for better or for worse and has made “interesting artwork” of his ships on platforms far more lewd than this one, though from what I remember that seemed to be more Harley/Ivy orientated. The point is I wouldn’t hold it against Dini I’d hold it against Bruce Timm.
Yeah, Bruce Timm is a fantastic artist but I do so detest him for this pairing, and not just because I'm very much a Selina/Bruce kinda guy, but because of just how wrong this relationship is on so many levels...
@@lightdarksoul2097 lol yeah that's kinda weird. Like I get not wanting to date your brother's ex or anything but like, Dick and Barbara aren't some written in the stars pairing lol. Though I'm probably biased since I like Dick with Kori. Kinda fine with Dick having had multiple relationships too. Like father like son.
@@lightdarksoul2097 have you read 3 jokers The writers try to respark the idea of Jason and Barbra but honestly I don’t like it Jason and Artemis I thought was a good idea but even then Jason could go with out a love interest and I’d be fine with it
I know this is off topic but I need help with my Batman story. I want Catwoman to be older than Batman. In this story, they have a 15 year age gap and I don't know how old to make Batman. How old should he be? I made him 21 but people flip out about age gaps sometimes and I want people to watch this show. I'm 22 and I have a thing for older women so I wanted to include that in my story. Also, I wanted some of the female villains to be Batman's girlfriends before they became villains. For example, maybe Poison Ivy was a scientist and maybe was in a relationship with Bruce before she became Poison Ivy but the problem is that if she is a successful scientist or a college professor she would be in her 40s or something. I'm 22 and I'm into older women but I know people on Twitter would boycott my Batman show because of the age gap so how old should I make Batman? The idea was to make him an adult but not too old but not too young either. Like he's over 18 but not too old. And for the people that will say "the roles were reversed everyone would have an issue" comment. Bruce Wayne's best friend's name is Mallory Moxon and she is the same age as Bruce 21 or 22 and she is in a relationship with Harvey Dent (who will become the villain Two-Face) and he's older than her. Maybe 10 years or older Idk and he's married. I did this so it won't come off as hypocritical or like age gaps are ok when the male is younger but not when the female is younger. How old should I make them?
That's the thing, I can totally understand Babs having a crush on Bruce at first. He's good looking, does good for others, smart, jacked, confident, rich etc. Fucking I, a heterosexual man, might have a crush on Bruce if I met him. But Bruce as I know him would be disciplined enough to say even if I wanna hit it that's a can of worms that will probably hurt people that are important to me and it will distract from the mission so I'm keeping it professional.
He would smash her for the sole reason He is bruce wayne Well bruce had to tell dick She maked her choice We idolise batman too much but in reality it is just Bruce wayne Billionaire playboy who is the prince of gotham who has the duty to protect gotham I think the real problem is that She was often portrayed as "bat girl" being looking very juvenile and girly Bruce and barbara actually only have 8 years apart Thomas wayne and gordon are from the same generation not bruce And grayson is actually a few years younger than barbara
@@heroeus8173 I can only speak for myself but I don't think I'm idolizing him too much in this scenario. Bruce is heavily flawed but that usually manifests in ways that he thinks he is helping his mission. Bruce betrayed Tim by outing Tim's identity to his girlfriend because he wanted to induct Steph and help the mission. Bruce pushed Dick too far and expected him not to have his own life so he could be helping the mission. He's a broken man but he has his mind set on something and wouldn't betray that. I don't see him betraying it just so he could fuck. He's not usually portrayed as a horndog, a want for sex isn't a thing that causes drama for Batman in my mind. Its usually an inability to open up, slavish dedication to an oath he made to his dead parents and difficulty accepting their death
@@pianist150 you may not idolise him? however this is clearly not the case of everyone in the comment section And also "too much"? It's either yes or no And i think you just say yes Batman is indeed broken in a certain manner but concerns more of a duty Bruce at any moment didn't pursue barbara Barbara went on top on him and started to kiss him Batman left the scene and bruce wayne took the commands Like bruce told grayson She make her choice Bruce always had toxic relationships Selina kyle(could work if written right but in general toxic) Poison ivy Talia al ghul(she is the less toxic and kind of work but that chick drug him and rape him BTW ) Diana (not toxic just not durable)
@@heroeus8173 I don't think what's happening here is me idolizing Bruce. Tha'ts my point. He's had bad relationships but his issue isn't that he can't say no or gets too fixated on a woman. How often does he say no to Talia? I'm pretty sure Damian only exists because of rape (which is s a whole separate problematic storyline), Selina kinda has to throw herself at him and its not like he's immediately wrapped around her finger when she does. Bruce isn't a guy that thinks, "you're hot and you wants me? Lets fuck". She made her choice, (which like I said I understand her crush) but Bruce is also making a choice. And I don't see him choosing to fuck his adopted son's ex girlfriend just cause he's horny
Actually depending on the continuity you go by, there's some that state Commissioner Gordon is actually older than Bruce. Heck, in Batman the Animated Series, Batman explicitly states Jim Gordon is around the same age his father would've been if he had been alive, so I wouldn't say Batman is necessarily in the same age range as Jim Gordon. However, I do agree with you that him getting with Batgirl while she's with Dick Grayson, or even after they break up, is beyond messed up. Plus Batman knows all his wards are more prone to be emotional than he is, which could cause problems if he did something like that, so it's out of character for Batman to do something like that for his own selfish needs.
I thought that was the norm - it is in any continuity I've followed anyway. Heck, doesn't the story sometimes go that 10 year old Bruce is comforted by an _adult_ Jim Gordon? And in several continuities (including the one where Barbara debuted iirc), she and Bruce are the same age! I don't like Bruce and Barbara being together, but I'm not _against_ it in every continuity; it entirely depends on the context. On _all_ the context; age, other relationships, everything. However, in my "optimal" continuity (and most of the ones I like), there's no way it'd happen; I prefer Babs and Dick being the same age (and together _at least_ for a while) and Batman and Gordon being sort of buddies. _And I really hate that one Batman Beyond comic that tried forcing it into BTAS._
I was under the impression that this ship was Bruce Timm's favorite, while Paul Dini preferred a pairing of Batman and Zatanna. Where did Dini say he wanted Bruce and Barbara together?
To add on to the Batman/Gordon relationship, in BTAS Batman mentions that Gordon is the same age his father would've been if he wasn't killed. Personally I more of a Nightwing/Starfire guy, but I can see the appeal for Dick/Babs.
I know this is off topic but I need help with my Batman story. I want Catwoman to be older than Batman. In this story, they have a 15 year age gap and I don't know how old to make Batman. How old should he be? I made him 21 but people flip out about age gaps sometimes and I want people to watch this show. I'm 22 and I have a thing for older women so I wanted to include that in my story. Also, I wanted some of the female villains to be Batman's girlfriends before they became villains. For example, maybe Poison Ivy was a scientist and maybe was in a relationship with Bruce before she became Poison Ivy but the problem is that if she is a successful scientist or a college professor she would be in her 40s or something. I'm 22 and I'm into older women but I know people on Twitter would boycott my Batman show because of the age gap so how old should I make Batman? The idea was to make him an adult but not too old but not too young either. Like he's over 18 but not too old. And for the people that will say "the roles were reversed everyone would have an issue" comment. Bruce Wayne's best friend's name is Mallory Moxon and she is the same age as Bruce 21 or 22 and she is in a relationship with Harvey Dent (who will become the villain Two-Face) and he's older than her. Maybe 10 years or older Idk and he's married. I did this so it won't come off as hypocritical or like age gaps are ok when the male is younger but not when the female is younger. How old should I make them?
@@llawliet6262 if you're going for an age gap that big then the older the better I guess. The problem is a 25yo Bruce means a 40yo Catwoman. Maybe go for something like a 8 year gap like 25 Bruce and 33 Catwoman. That or just don't care about twitter cause that's what I'd do
Agreed!!! The Bruce x Babs pairing always felt icky and out-of-nowhere. Dick x Babs have always felt like such a genuine developed pair. Their love story in comics is *chef’s kiss*
funny, as the dick x babs pairing came out of nowhere (after literal decades of platonic relationship) and then they retconned them into haveing a romantic development. i don't like bruce x babs, but dick x babs is just as bad imo.
I normally don't really see any issue with two people being together despite an age gap so long as they're both adults and didn't know each other before one of them was one. But that last point applies to this, and it makes this come across as creepy and immoral at a minimum. Not to mention the complications it causes with him being good friends with her dad, and the fact that she's dated his adopted son.
I know this is off topic but I need help with my Batman story. I want Catwoman to be older than Batman. In this story, they have a 15 year age gap and I don't know how old to make Batman. How old should he be? I made him 21 but people flip out about age gaps sometimes and I want people to watch this show. I'm 22 and I have a thing for older women so I wanted to include that in my story. Also, I wanted some of the female villains to be Batman's girlfriends before they became villains. For example, maybe Poison Ivy was a scientist and maybe was in a relationship with Bruce before she became Poison Ivy but the problem is that if she is a successful scientist or a college professor she would be in her 40s or something. I'm 22 and I'm into older women but I know people on Twitter would boycott my Batman show because of the age gap so how old should I make Batman? The idea was to make him an adult but not too old but not too young either. Like he's over 18 but not too old. And for the people that will say "the roles were reversed everyone would have an issue" comment. Bruce Wayne's best friend's name is Mallory Moxon and she is the same age as Bruce 21 or 22 and she is in a relationship with Harvey Dent (who will become the villain Two-Face) and he's older than her. Maybe 10 years or older Idk and he's married. I did this so it won't come off as hypocritical or like age gaps are ok when the male is younger but not when the female is younger. How old should I make them?
@@llawliet6262 I dunno how serious you are about writing advice and I'm not gonna pretend I know everything about how fandoms perceive things like this, but I think my attitude towards the age gap is fairly common. I don't think there's any real issue so long as there isn't a pre-existing relationship before they were both adults and neither one had any real power over the other, so I would also stay away from student/teacher relationships if that's something you're thinking of. One thing I will point out though is that I think your version of Batman is too young to actually have had enough time to train and become Batman properly. I would make him 24 at minimum, because I find it hard to believe he could've mastered so many martial arts before that age, even if he started pretty young. Also, if you want people to pay attention and actually like your work, two recommendations I have are not focusing to much on Batman's dating life and don't make the story about what you want rather than what the characters would do. The bit about Batman's dating life is because crime fighting is Batman's first priority in life, and while he does have relationships, the main reason they don't usually go anywhere is because his relationships are more of a secondary aspect of his life that he doesn't prioritize, so it shouldn't be the priority of your writing either. And the second part is because that part where you talked about your own age and preference for older women makes it sound like you're writing Batman as a self insert character rather than Batman being his own character, which will make it very difficult for anything you write to come across as a real story rather than self insert fanfiction. I'm not saying that what you're writing is fan fiction quality, just that it almost sounds like it could be based on what you've written here. I'm not trying be insulting, I'm just making suggestions for what I think might work in a Batman story.
The whole Bruce/Barbara thing honestly strikes me as Bruce Timm vicariously living out a (gross) personal fantasy through this pairing, as though he himself feels attracted to the fictional character of Batgirl and continues to ship her with Batman as though he (Bruce Timm) equates Bruce Wayne with himself, even sharing the same first name as him.
I know this is off topic but I need help with my Batman story. I want Catwoman to be older than Batman. In this story, they have a 15 year age gap and I don't know how old to make Batman. How old should he be? I made him 21 but people flip out about age gaps sometimes and I want people to watch this show. I'm 22 and I have a thing for older women so I wanted to include that in my story. Also, I wanted some of the female villains to be Batman's girlfriends before they became villains. For example, maybe Poison Ivy was a scientist and maybe was in a relationship with Bruce before she became Poison Ivy but the problem is that if she is a successful scientist or a college professor she would be in her 40s or something. I'm 22 and I'm into older women but I know people on Twitter would boycott my Batman show because of the age gap so how old should I make Batman? The idea was to make him an adult but not too old but not too young either. Like he's over 18 but not too old. And for the people that will say "the roles were reversed everyone would have an issue" comment. Bruce Wayne's best friend's name is Mallory Moxon and she is the same age as Bruce 21 or 22 and she is in a relationship with Harvey Dent (who will become the villain Two-Face) and he's older than her. Maybe 10 years or older Idk and he's married. I did this so it won't come off as hypocritical or like age gaps are ok when the male is younger but not when the female is younger. How old should I make them?
When i was a kid, I thought batgirl was Batman’s daughter and was always uncomfortable with this pairing. You put the words out of my mouth and this video is very well worded. Good job!
Why I agree Bruce needs to end up with Selina, Dick should end up with Starfire. Neither against Barbara but I just like Dick and Starfire much more. Blame the Teen Titans.
Whether hetero or LGBT, we need more platonic character relationships. More people who can be close without flinging their genitals around. Depict friendship - something lacking in the real world, too - more.
Boy meets world had a great platonic relationship I recalled Sean and Angela comforting each other in bed and neither one's respective bf/gf had an issue with it. Classic heartfelt moments.
the dick grayson-babara gordon relationship used to be a cool platonic one, up untill the 90s, then DC decided that not only should their relationship become romantic but they needed to retcon their pasts to be romantic too.
What I think is even more insane is that he never even has them having a thing together be more than just a thing that happens. In Batman Beyond it's all after the fact and done with, all it is is a gross tidbit we all have to live with. The only possible thing it adds is making Old Barbara being so antagonistic comes off as her being a spurned ex-lover. The Killing Joke Batman barely seemed interested in Barbara. Before they do it he's calling her reckless and out of line then she jumps on him and tears her clothes off and he's like :| "okay I'll do you I guess" and after he's stoic and without any interest in Barbara and Barbara turns neurotic and sex-starved when he doesn't call her back... How is the fact that they screwed important to anything in the Killing Joke? This ship is nothing! It's literally just Bruce Timm wanting Batman to bang every female he's in close proximity to as a thinly veiled power fantasy.
One of the reasons I *personally* think of Batman Beyond as an alternate timeline is this. I can't find it in me to get past a Batman who would be so predatory to date a woman half his age (she mentions him being at or around 40 in the Calendar Girl episode and she's in her first year of college in the original BTAS) and his son's girlfriend. It makes it awkward to watch episodes where he's parental to Dick to know that he'd eventually betray his son like that. This in the same continuity where we waste multiple seasons of Justice League of Bruce and Diana? All for what? We know how he ends up in Batman Beyond, and we know his thing with Barbara was what led to her quitting so he left Diana for Batgirl... I also feel better thinking of it as alternate cause I hate knowing a definitive future for characters, it just makes things happening after that series way less interesting to know how they'll end up rather than not having to fit things into a set ending.
@@autobotstarscream765 I meant an alternate timeline to the DC animated universe. It was my introduction to DC comics and it means a lot to me, but for some of the reasons I prefer to think of the Batman Beyond canon as a possible timeline rather than a definitive one. I know it's not "canon" but I like it better than having my perception of Batman be that he'd sleep with his son's girlfriend. It really would ruin him in my eyes as a person who cares about his sons. That and knowing exactly what happens in the far future where the characters are all completely miserable and tortured by the past is kind of dreary and depressing.
There was a weird thing with the DCAU and Bruce borderline cuckolding people. He dates Lois in front of Clark, Barbara in front of Dick, etc. There was even one episode of JLU that reveals that Amanda Waller overwrote the DNA in the testicles of Warren McGinnis so that he was shooting Bruce Wayne's seed into his wife. Which is just like... what the fuck, man?
You gotta admire dick grayson+ donna troy for being friends since the 60s and never having been a couple, maybe the less cliche relantioship on the DC universe(aparently there were talks of it on new teen titans, but it was shot down, hope it stays like that)
@@autobotstarscream765 yeah lets hope they think like that when they bring this idea in some future writers room XD Btw I think dick+donna idea was shot down in like the 80s or 90s
It's a lot creepier when you realize that in one of the episodes Bruce states that she's known her since she was a kid, so I looks more like he's been waiting for her to hit 18
Having finished the 1960s show recently, I was surprised to see that the whole Batgirl/Bruce Wayne "attraction" started there. Like there were scenes where she would flurt more with Batman and show no interest to Robin whatsoever. Also, James Gordon in the 60s show tries to pair Bruce with Barbara when she comes home from college. And that's actually where the character started.
@@jadenbryant9283 also, I think if Paul Dini and Bruce Timm were raised on that show, it would definitely explain why they had the idea in their heads for those two characters to be together. The thought process being "Well they were implied to fancy each other in our childhood 60s show, why not do it or imply it in our 90s animated show to".
Jaden Bryant It seemed like the original Barbara in the 60’s was between the age of Dick and Bruce and was set up to create a love triangle. I’ve also noticed how it seemed like Commissioner Gordon was trying to set Bruce up with Barbara. In my head-canon Golden and Silver Age Gordon was a social climbing gold digger trying to get his beloved daughter married off to his millionaire friend. I mean we never saw him or Chief O’Hara do actual police work. He was always just a guest at bigwig social occasions, hanging out at the -Playboy Mansion- Wayne Manor, and the extent of the GCPD’s work was turning on the Batsignal (or calling the red phone) to give Batman information.
Barbara was working as a librarian in the 60s show and was in her early 20s. Dick I think was a senior in HS so just a few years younger. Bruce (Adam West) was about 40 at the time and I personally think would have been too old for her. In BTAS it always bugged me when Timm wanted to pair [this] Bruce and Barbara together. He kept insisting everyone was on board and it's not a problem but I know I'm not the only one who was bothered by this pairing. If she were a decade older when introduced, maybe. But we were introduced to a teenage girl and Dick was a college freshman (age 18-19).
I have a pet peeve against this ship. I always thought that the sidekicks would be most likely to go with each other, like Stephanie and Tim did in the 90’s comics. But Batman in my mind should only ever live a long and relatively lonely life until he dies, or get with Catwoman, preferably the latter because I think he deserves to be happy. EDIT: Sorry, TIM and Stephanie.
Yeah I ALWAYS hated it. Even as a kid, it just felt really wrong. It literally makes no sense for Bruce Goody-Two-Shoes Wayne to get with a barely-18 college girl who also dated his son. Bruce Timm is great and all but... God this is weird.
I totally agree with all of this Barbara always has this younger learning vibe and it seemed like Bruce being with her is totally taking advantage especially when her and Dick date pretty often meaning she is young enough to be a daughteresk figure
I agree with you completely, pairing Bruce and Babs romantically shows a complete misunderstanding of their characters. My one major problem with the DCAU is that it planted that seed.
When first seen the scene in the Killing Joke when the made love underneath the gargoyle, I never dreamed it would happened unexpectedly. I thought " Get it on get it on get it over with." It felt like it was taking my breath away.
Definitely out of character. The many points you made I agree with that Barbara always felt like she was a daughter to Bruce like the other Robins always felt like sons. And it just feels right seeing Dick and Barbara paired together and Bruce and Selina paired together. I mean imagine if they suddenly pushed it out of nowhere and paired Nightwing and Catwoman together as a potential couple. That feels kind of wrong because that’s never been the dynamic between those characters like how it is for Batman and Catwoman. I do have a suggested video since you been doing VH1 reality show videos although I’m gonna detour with suggesting you spotlight a reality competition show that was on TBS. I’m not sure if you at all watched it but I’m talking about King of the Nerds a reality competition show that aired on TBS from 2013-2015 and ran for three seasons a total of 24 episodes for the whole series. It was to as the title suggests to crown the next King of the Nerds and it was hosted and produced by Robert Carradine and Curtis Armstrong from the film Revenge of the Nerds. I think it might make for an interesting video getting your unfiltered thoughts on it.
There was an odd TNBA episode "You Scratch My Back" where they sort of played off a Nightwing/Catwoman thing, but it ended with a Batgirl and Nightwing pairing moment.
@@Nightman221k while I don’t think Catwoman would genuinely fall for Nightwing I feel like she would definitely flirt with him since she’s got that sort of playful personality.
This might be one of your best character analysis videos yet. Any point I thought of making, you addressed it wonderfully. All around, this relationship just taints the Bat mythology. I would love to see your take on the on Punchline, Joker and Harley story
The problem is that the story never really says there's anything wrong with a late 30s/early 40s and barely early 20s relationship and whatever, they're adults, it's more of a personal and cultural thing, but the characters in specific is why this is so disgusting. Jim Gordon goes between best friend, to brother, to even father figure sometimes to Bruce
Batman & Batgirl is like Wolverine & Jean Grey. There's the age difference, it usually being one sided in the beginning, and the fact that live together with another guy who she's involved with.
@MirrorUniverse Zot that's still a 15 year difference. I think people dating who are 6-10 apart in age is pushing it, any romantic relationship above 10 years is just discussing. Besides, what you just said about Bruce being 45 and Barbara 30 when they first get together means in 20 years she'll be 50 and he'll be old enough for retirement.
@MirrorUniverse Zot says the person who commented on my post about how weird its not. And I'm not the only person who cares, Vee Infuso the one who went into detail about why they shouldn't be together, talk to him if you have a problem with others having a problem with Batgirl & Batman being shipped.
@MirrorUniverse Zot and you don't understand how opinions work and that as Vee Infuso stated, Batman is somewhat a surrogate father to Batgirl and if you don't find it disturbing, than perhaps your the prolem.
Wtf Bruce is only 8 years older than barbara Thomas wayne is from the same generation as jim gordon not bruce What fatherly relationship? And in their origin history barbara and bruce always end up in a triangle with grayson What the writers tried to show is Batman at the end of the day has to set place to bruce wayne the billionaire playboy The prince of gotham who protects gotham by pure heritage Yes going with barbara was a dick move Since she was or just broke with grayson But like bruce says to grayson She made her choice She pursue bruce not the reverse The age gab is nothing The only problem i have with it is That bruce knew that f*cking barbara would break grayson
I really hate this pairing so much. I really can't blame Dick Grayson for having enough of Bruce after this. His father figure starts dating his girlfriend or ex or whatever. That is a massive dick move. There is also the big age distance and you know her father is his best friend. The whole thing makes both feel like terrible people.
Yeah this basically nailed the the pin in the coffin of why Knightwing is my favorite character in the bat-family. I mean, I like Batman and his villains, but more so I like that he’s a human that fights super-powered people and insane people. The thing is, Dick Grayson is the same thing and he’s just a way better character imo. Leader of the teen titans, he’s optimistic, charming, LOYAL and he still does all the things Batman does without being a complete jerk most of the time (maybe in the HBO titans he a lil shady). Batman is mostly a super brooding and vengeance type and I like that. However sometimes Batman has no borders, no lines, he won’t kill but he’ll sleep with his sons girlfriend with no remorse. Or make contingencies for the justice league, his best friends. Not all versions of Bruce are like this, and I know he’s not supposed to be perfect. But when you see flaws like this. Like sleeping with Barbara.. his protégé, it outshines and like the video said, “puts a bad taste in your mouth, (least sexual way possible)”. Lol
It's strange in many ways and yes I'm saying this even if the roles were reversed. Batgirl is both his partner. Daughter to gordan who works with Batman sometimes. Younger as she is a teenager to Batman being an adult. Dated Batman Nightwing and red hood at some point which is honestly disgusting. Story wise it's just strange and Batgirl works better with Nightwing and red hood anyways as Nightwing tries his best to not be like Batman but as Oracle she knows him and wants him to grow while red hood she made him stop killing immediately after they kissed and thier relationship only failed because the letter Jason gave her was cleaned up by the janitor. Batman didn't take advantage of her but at the same time it wasn't a good plot anyways even in Batman beyond. Just a strong male figure aside her dad would have been cool to show how his job is just as hard as the Batman's and stuff. At least she doesn't try to date tim or Damian where she is more of an older sister figure instead which makes it twice as Strange when she could be potentially Damian's mama too.
@@MonkeyKingsformerroomate yeah I just remembered that myself after posting this. I was more so focused on the Jason Todd thing as that could have worked amazing to Jason making him a hero. Heck Tim drake helped him in the killing joke what if scene. But yeah Barbara is kinda gross in these aspects dating everyone except Alfred and Damian
@@MonkeyKingsformerroomate injustice Damian is a thing so...... probably if she wants mini Batman Jason Todd is only in the comics while Batgirl dates Batman in the movies and Nightwing in Lego Batman. But yeah if she ever does that I'll lose all respect for her and she is one of my favorites (aside the whole bat family thing she does)
@@ivanbluecool I read a lot of nightwing. Even if he treated her kinda shitty at one point. Sleeping with her THEN telling her he's engaged to Starfire. He's really the only one I like with her.
That episode of BTAS where Bruce sees all the women he loved on the monitor. The Batgirl popping up is a big wtf, even when you was young and watching them cartoons.
She's a 20 year old,He's a 50 year old, her father is probably his best friend.......But WHAT THE HELL?! LET'S MAKE THEM A COUPLE SO HE CAN BE A LITTLE SAD (FOR BASICALLY 2 SECONDS) ABOUT HER BEING SHOT BY THE JOKER.
@@pavvin In the Calendar Girl episode Batgirl quips that he's the same age as Calendar Girl who was over 40 and Barbara is in her early years of college. 20 year age gap minimum.
Lego Batman is arguably the only story where they worked in a relationship. Barbara was a grown woman and Bruce was still figuring things out and had no prior affiliation with her or Gordon up to that point which makes it less manipulative as you put it with other iterations like… The Killing joke movie 🤢 I am inclined to agree about the preferred relationship being Batman and Selina, the both of them just play off each other far better. The Wonfsr woman ship also worked to a degree but was never gonna last. Mostly because Bruce is just a mortal and Diana is Immortal.
I thought it was Bruce Timm that pushed the pairing of Batman and Girl. It's sad to know Paul Dini felt that way too. You're correct it makes Bruce look like a dirty old man. Bruce plays the womanizer as his Bruce Wayne disguise to have him step into this behavior as Batman strips more of his morals away.
Yeah shoutouts to Timm for his art and everything else for the DCAU but this... Not sure on why he was so insistent on making this a thing in continuity. At least just keep it to the unrelated lewd artwork if you really wanted to draw the ship for the sake of drawing something taboo. Like that stuff is fire, I've seen the Batman x Harley stuff lol. But why add it to the SHOW? Didn't need that, but now its at least just an awkward AS specific tidbit that thankfully most writers since just avoid altogether.
Hi ya', Vee! Eesh, this is a tricky one for me. While this pairing was never my favorite, I've learned to accept it in certain continuities. For instance, in the DCAU it is stated in the "B:TAS" episode "I Am the Night" that Commissioner Gordon is the same age that Bruce's father would be if he'd have lived. I know it's a blink and you miss it moment, but it is technically in there. What muddied the whole thing in the DCAU is the closer relative age between Bruce and both Dick and Barbara than normally is the case. So, people Bruce once dated aren't necessarily off the table for Dick and vice versa (see Nightwing and Catwoman in "You Scratch My Back"). Having crunched the numbers (with the help of WDB), I think, here, Bruce is more like 12-15 years older than Dick and Barbara, so a relationship between them isn't so off from that perspective. Additionally, I felt like the the way Barbara recounts it to Terry in "Beyond" technically makes sense. There she says they worked together for so long at a point that they felt like the perfect team (also likely not having many other prospects). So they gave it a try, before Barbara realized all they really had in common was their "line of work." At which point she broke it off. I think the reason I've become more okay with this is that (in the DCAU) we mostly only hear of it after the fact, at which point it is chalked up to a fling, essentially. So you're never really meant to be rooting for them to get together, as they've already had their history and are now just friends. Thereby, as far as meant-to-be-failed relationships go, I can see how Timm and co. didn't think it would ruffle so many feathers as it did. However, I still get where you and a majority of the fandom are coming from in that it feels sort of beneath Batman, especially, given her prior history with Dick. Again, I feel less bothered about the "weirdness" in terms of Jim, in that I could see an argument being made that Barbara is dating someone she knows her father would approve of and I could see Bruce being happy with the idea of Jim as a father-in-law (again given his being a contemporary of Thomas). However, even still, I think its revelation in "Beyond" is meant to almost depict Bruce and his era of partners as faliable people, warts and all, making Terry often doubt whether or not he should trust the man he's working with today based on the dissent of his former partners. Plus, it shows what being Batman cost Bruce, as Barbara moved on and married D.A. Sam Young. So yeah, them's my thoughts.
I completely agree with this, i like how it's potrayed in the recountings in Beyond, of it being a far-gone fling that just happened, didin't work out, and ended on it's own, they totally misrepresented the events in the Batman Beyond 2.0 comic book flashbacks with all the drama surrounding Dick's relationship with Barbara, but at least that isn't the same canon as the animated show, even if it is similar.
@@prometheusmodelow8322 and while I don't agree at least in batman beyond and the DCAU you can mostly ignore it in The killing joke and Batman Beyond 2.0 you really can't ignore it
Dude, c’mon. Every show creator was some DeviantArt/Tumblr shipper who was given a show. Case in point, Rebecca Sugar who used to due slash fiction of Eddy and Double D.
One video idea i would find interesting for you to analyze would be the episode in the justice league cartoon "a better world". More specifically the debate of philosophy between the 2 batman. I love the qoute "And with that power, we've made a world where no eight-year-old boy will ever lose his parents... because of some punk with a gun."
To this day I will never understand why people are so freaked out by this it's quite literally a second language for bruce to have sex with any girl that knows his identity
@@grapeshot Honestly Luke Fox is one of the most underrated bat family related characters who deserves his own ongoing comic book run and his own TV show Pairing Luke Fox and Barbara Gordon together is actually not a bad idea
@@wesleywiggins958 Even so it was a lot better than shipping Barbara with Bruce Ironically enough both Barbara and Luke dated for a while in The New 52
I think the only time it worked for me was in Batman Beyond. Where it helped showed Bruce’s eventual fall from grace. Where he became a lonely old man with a dog.
I couldn't agree more! I loathe this pairing for all of the same points you brought up, it has always felt wrong to me just like that time 9can't remember specifically which comic) when Selena was coming on to Dick Grayson, again it just made me shudder and feel all kinds of WRONG! Bruce belongs with Selena and as for Babs, I'm ok with her paired to Dick or Tim (or no one!), I don't see her and Jason getting along well enough for a relationship, waaaaaay too different.
Good video that I 100% agree with. Maybe a video on how Jason Todd is handled because if you ask me, Jason is the most underutilized Robin. For christ sakes, it took us TWO seasons of Young Justice and constant denial from the writers just to confirm that yes, the Robin Hologram in Mt. Justice was Jason. It almost feels like he gets the shaft in most variations of DC because he's the one that died, and thanks to Stephanie and Damian, he's not even the only one yet Damian at least has an entire series of animated movies of which he's a major player in
I watched the video, but I still don't understand what's wrong with it. There were no arguments, just a subjective opinion. Just because it was different in the comics. That's all.
I’m actually kinda fine with their relationship in BAS. Cause its actually shows that Bruce Wayne not actually ultimate perfect guy, can sometimes make poor decisions and screw up big time. In the Killing joke movie though it was absolutely unnecessary.
It still feels wrong because it's a mistake that makes, like, no sense. Think about it like this: Making contingency plans to ice his friends if they go bad? That's a mistake, but it makes sense for his character to find it necessary to do. What doesn't make sense is for Bruce to say "Oh wow! My best friend's daughter and son's ex-girlfriend is SINGLE and WOW SHE'S HOT! I'm hittin' that!" especially in the context of everything he does in the animated series.
@@jodikusiii well first of all, mistakes often doesn’t make sense for an observer because… well… its a mistake, leaps of judgment called that way for a reason. Also outside of the vacuum of their relationships with Dick and Commissioner and age difference aside, their relationship actually make sense: they’re both working together in highly stressful environment (which means adrenaline rush and endorphins associated with time spent together) and they have no need to conceal their vigilante “careers” from each other, so in this regard Barbara very similar to Selina Kyle BUT she also plays in the same team as Batman. Also Bruce Wayne are depicted as a polygamous person, he had like 6 girlfriends even before Justice League Animated Series that brought Wander Woman relationship to the table… for some reason. So even considering how Batman is almost perfect in every way possible, can I believe that he sometimes thinks with his dick rather than head? Yeah I can, so this mistake make sense to me.
@@slammydunk9787 batman is the most methodical guy you will ever meet. thinking with his head is his whole thing. and your basic argument is "Well, aside from every disgusting, revolting thing that makes this ship a terrible idea, it makes a little sense!" also, batman is not perfect. he only trusts himself, he's kind of fucking crazy, and after decades he's still so torn up over his parent's death he dresses up as a bat at night to beat up poor people. i don't think you've ever read a comic book.
@@jodikusiii bAtMaN iS NoT PeRfECT but all of his “flaws” only adds to his “cool factor”. And yet if there’s something actually questionable about him, well its just “BAD WRITING THAT DOESNT MAKE SENSE NOT MUH BATMAN HE COULDN’T DO THIS” Also I didn’t say that this ship was good and that I like it, I just said I fine with it, because it shows Bruce Wayne as actual person who can screw up and not in a cool way.
@@slammydunk9787 i don't think you, like, understand the character of batman. like, at all. batman has flaws, he is a flawed character. but there are better flaws than him fucking a college girl that he's known since she was a baby. read a comic book. please.
The only time, the only WAY I can make this pairing work in my head (in the animated continuity at least), is if it occurred at a point where Bruce and Barbara had no one left in their lives. Dick's in Bludhaven, Tim's retired after the events of ROTJ and left Bruce's care, Alfred's dead, Jim's dead, and Bruce has quit the Justice League. All that's left is him and Barbara, fighting crime in Gotham every night with no support system other than each other. That's how I figured it happened for years based on Barbara's comments in Beyond. But no, they had to go and say it happened still in the prime of their careers.
I aree with you 100% she's Gordon's daughter his best friend and mentor and his adopted son's long-term girlfriend. So it just comes off wrong, it's not a choice I would make or most people let alone Batman and Batgirl
"realistically, she doesn't even seem like she's his type" *shows video of batman kissing a furry* idk man, i think the only aspect he likes about her is that she goes by her batsona
To be fair in that scene he was just seducing Cheetah so she could let him free (he was trapped by the villains version of an early justice league in that episode)
Yeah generally bruce and barbara has a 8 to 10 years gab The age gab is fine Especially for bruce wayne I think people idolise batman too much They forget that at the end of the day Batman has to come back as bruce wayne
@@heroeus8173 yeah and even if its kinda weird, current Barbara is like 30 and Bruce is like 42, and this age gap for adults its very common and its not ilegal or anything like that
I don't know about placing blame on Paul Dini. If you notice the common denominator with BTAS and The Killing Joke: Bruce Timm and his obsession with Yvette from the Adam West show bleeding into both projects. Then there's Batman: Harley Quinn which oyyyyyyyy vey.
A lot of people who got angry at that fact that Rose on episode eight of Star Wars had a thing for the black guy. Because people seem to still have a problem with interracial relationships when it comes down to Black men. But of course when everybody else does it, it's love knows no color.
I think this is a Bruce Tim thing. It was shipped as far back as batman beyond. And maybe btas. I think his quote was " of course we knew it was wrong.. that's why we did it" It's From a special feature in the Batman the animated series season 3 DVD box set.
I still think Dick should be with Starfire and not have him and Barbara be in a relationship at all. They work better as friends, Dick and Barbara. I agree with the point at the beginning of the video that a guy and a girl in a story doesn't HAVE to be romantically attached, that it's ok for them to be just friends, and I think that applies to Dick and Barbara as well. Leave Starfire for Dick.
I didn't even know this was a thing until I saw the watsed Killing Joke film and yeah it's the WORST Batman relationship first off I imagend Bruce, Harvey and Gorden growing up together and being around the same age and treating each other like siblings and to imagend Bruce getting with is homies's daughter is just grimy not to mention she is the ex of his first son which makes Barbra look like she was only with him to get closer to Bruce and THEN the age bro's in his 40's and she's in either high school or college which makes me feel he should be in Arkham Asylum for grooning young impresionable crime fighters
I honestly don’t have a problem with it. In The Killing Joke, Batgirl is depicted as being in her early to mid twenties. As long as they are both consenting adults, it shouldn’t be an issue. The reasons given for why this relationship is inappropriate are always quite poor. As an adult, Bargirl doesn’t need her father’s permission or approval to date Batman. She can do what she wishes. Just because Batman knew her as a teenager, that doesn’t mean he was necessarily grooming her. After all, in most versions, he’s reluctant to get into the relationship. Saying that something feels weird or strange is not a sufficient enough reason to say that it’s wrong. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve realized that age is an arbitrary and trivial thing. Love often transcends the arbitrary trivialities of time. Yes, the fact that they’re casually sleeping around could be seen as inappropriate, but that would apply to almost every relationship Batman has had, not just with Batgirl.
As long as she is consenting it fine, but her knowing Bruce at a young age one at point feels wrong and in general this relationship feels forced and unnecessary.
I can understand those points tbh. I probably would feel better if it was probably with a much less prominent age gape. Or not seemingly on the back of your ex-boyfriends adopted father either. Though once again, it's pretty arbitrary. Probably would have gotten less flack if it was Jason or Tim. Like in the Arkham series
It's really more criticized on a level of it going against their personalities. We never really get any indication of Bruce feeling particularly interested in Barbara that way and she's dated Dick. We're to assume that if he and Barbara get together that Bruce was lusting after his son's girlfriend and that he felt that way a long time. And for Bruce, who appears to take being a father seriously, him willingly hurting his son like that just is not in character. We never see him betray someone's trust like that much less his own son.
Finally a take that I agree with here. People don't have to agree that it's a good ship but their reasonings are a bit weak. Aside from the cheating angle of it, I see nothing wrong
I have yet to meet ANYONE who likes or approves of this pairing. I don't know why writers keep pushing these two together. The fans have expressed their disgust over and over, yet writers keep circling back to this pairing, which, I'm sorry to say, sounds ripped right out of a trashy soap opera. The Batman universe deserves better.
I always thought batgirl just a crush and admire Batman and he wouldn’t return turn it because he see her as a niece/daughter figure like geralt and ciri type.
The rise of Game of Thrones and Incest Porn made this ship acceptable. Too many searches for daddy daughter, mom son, brother sister, the algorithm knows and recommends.
What are you doing Step-Bat🙈
🤣
Oh God I did not want to think about that. 🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦😰😰😰😰
Oh no, step bat is stuck in the washing machine again...
This mite be the best comment of all time
Exactly what comes to mind I agree with the video 100%
I always thought it was weird that Bruce respects Gordon for helping him as a child, but he still ropes his daughter into a life of vigilantism before ploughing her like a field.
Ruh roh raggy
The first part, I understand, as it's been stated that Barbara looks up to Batman. The second part... no I understand why people have a problem with it.
@@Jedi-ge6lr what do you mean?!
@@rodneyreeves5354 The vigilante part I understand, as Barbara has been stated to look up to Batman, leading her to become Batgirl before being paralyzed by Joker. The romance and sex part however, is where it goes too far.
@@Jedi-ge6lr the dude had sex with Gordon’s daughter!!! He had sex with someone half his age, his best friend’s daughter, and his son’s ex!!! Are you cracked?!
If there was ever a Batman X Batgirl paired then there should be one reason for that to happen. Which is to have Dick Grayson as Batman and Barbara Gordon as Batgirl, since Dick and Babs are around the same age and Dick Grayson is a popular pairing with Barbara Gordon.
Great idea.
that happens in "Superman and Batman Generations"
Unless of course its the pre-Crisis continuity where, apparently, Barbara is a full grown adult while Dick is still in high school.
No, seriously. The Bronze Age comics confirm that with her actually being a governor at some point of her career. This is one of those times where retcon to history is definitely a good thing.
Looks at lego batman
@@BigK13372 oh yea, I honestly forgot that it really wasn’t up until Crisis on Infinite Earths back in 1985 where they retcon Barbara to be around the same age as Dick. And honestly I think that story really helped not only Babs but other Bat family members as well that were introduced prior such as Helena Bretinelli, Kate Kane, Bette Kane, and Jason Todd.
Please, don't remind me that Batgirl hooked up with Batman in The Killing Joke movie. Bruce is essentially another father figure for Barbara. Them hooking up is gross.
That was a trouble moment and I ban that shipping from brain.
Her only relationship that felt natural was with Grayson. That’s it. When they’re together she’s more than his love interest, she’s her own character and person and Nightwing relies HEAVILY on her.
The best dc ship🤝
Tim drake could be fine too
@@techedbirb6663 he got spolier tho
Barbara brings nothing to the table.
I always found it was fake and forced. (which spoiler it is)
Bruce and Barbara is much more Bruce Timm’s fault than it is Paul Dini’s. Timm has shipped the two together on multiple occasions and is responsible, at least partly, with their pairing in the killing joke and, as far as I’m aware, he is the one who pushed for its inclusion in the DCAU (Batman the animated series, the new batman adventures, ect). Timm seems to put his ships in a lot of his projects for better or for worse and has made “interesting artwork” of his ships on platforms far more lewd than this one, though from what I remember that seemed to be more Harley/Ivy orientated. The point is I wouldn’t hold it against Dini I’d hold it against Bruce Timm.
Yeah, Bruce Timm is a fantastic artist but I do so detest him for this pairing, and not just because I'm very much a Selina/Bruce kinda guy, but because of just how wrong this relationship is on so many levels...
I'm still waiting for a Batman project involving Timm, where it's revealed that Selina had an affair with Alfred. It would all come full circle.
I love when her and Dick are together as Robin and Batgirl and even when he's Nightwing and she's Oracle. The Jason and Tim stuff is whatever
It was crazy that even Jason seemed to realize that. He denied Barbara because. "I'm not DIck Grayson"
@@lightdarksoul2097 lol yeah that's kinda weird. Like I get not wanting to date your brother's ex or anything but like, Dick and Barbara aren't some written in the stars pairing lol. Though I'm probably biased since I like Dick with Kori. Kinda fine with Dick having had multiple relationships too. Like father like son.
@@lightdarksoul2097 have you read 3 jokers
The writers try to respark the idea of Jason and Barbra but honestly I don’t like it
Jason and Artemis I thought was a good idea but even then Jason could go with out a love interest and I’d be fine with it
@@youngwhitemale1366 Yeah that story is wild. I think they tried a bit too hard. Jason is strange when it comes to love interest.
I know this is off topic but I need help with my Batman story. I want Catwoman to be older than Batman. In this story, they have a 15 year age gap and I don't know how old to make Batman. How old should he be? I made him 21 but people flip out about age gaps sometimes and I want people to watch this show. I'm 22 and I have a thing for older women so I wanted to include that in my story. Also, I wanted some of the female villains to be Batman's girlfriends before they became villains. For example, maybe Poison Ivy was a scientist and maybe was in a relationship with Bruce before she became Poison Ivy but the problem is that if she is a successful scientist or a college professor she would be in her 40s or something. I'm 22 and I'm into older women but I know people on Twitter would boycott my Batman show because of the age gap so how old should I make Batman? The idea was to make him an adult but not too old but not too young either. Like he's over 18 but not too old. And for the people that will say "the roles were reversed everyone would have an issue" comment. Bruce Wayne's best friend's name is Mallory Moxon and she is the same age as Bruce 21 or 22 and she is in a relationship with Harvey Dent (who will become the villain Two-Face) and he's older than her. Maybe 10 years or older Idk and he's married. I did this so it won't come off as hypocritical or like age gaps are ok when the male is younger but not when the female is younger. How old should I make them?
That's the thing, I can totally understand Babs having a crush on Bruce at first. He's good looking, does good for others, smart, jacked, confident, rich etc. Fucking I, a heterosexual man, might have a crush on Bruce if I met him. But Bruce as I know him would be disciplined enough to say even if I wanna hit it that's a can of worms that will probably hurt people that are important to me and it will distract from the mission so I'm keeping it professional.
💯
He would smash her for the sole reason
He is bruce wayne
Well bruce had to tell dick
She maked her choice
We idolise batman too much but in reality it is just Bruce wayne
Billionaire playboy who is the prince of gotham who has the duty to protect gotham
I think the real problem is that
She was often portrayed as "bat girl" being looking very juvenile and girly
Bruce and barbara actually only have 8 years apart
Thomas wayne and gordon are from the same generation not bruce
And grayson is actually a few years younger than barbara
@@heroeus8173 I can only speak for myself but I don't think I'm idolizing him too much in this scenario. Bruce is heavily flawed but that usually manifests in ways that he thinks he is helping his mission. Bruce betrayed Tim by outing Tim's identity to his girlfriend because he wanted to induct Steph and help the mission. Bruce pushed Dick too far and expected him not to have his own life so he could be helping the mission.
He's a broken man but he has his mind set on something and wouldn't betray that. I don't see him betraying it just so he could fuck. He's not usually portrayed as a horndog, a want for sex isn't a thing that causes drama for Batman in my mind. Its usually an inability to open up, slavish dedication to an oath he made to his dead parents and difficulty accepting their death
@@pianist150 you may not idolise him? however this is clearly not the case of everyone in the comment section
And also "too much"?
It's either yes or no
And i think you just say yes
Batman is indeed broken in a certain manner but concerns more of a duty
Bruce at any moment didn't pursue barbara
Barbara went on top on him and started to kiss him
Batman left the scene and bruce wayne took the commands
Like bruce told grayson
She make her choice
Bruce always had toxic relationships
Selina kyle(could work if written right but in general toxic)
Poison ivy
Talia al ghul(she is the less toxic and kind of work but that chick drug him and rape him BTW )
Diana (not toxic just not durable)
@@heroeus8173 I don't think what's happening here is me idolizing Bruce. Tha'ts my point.
He's had bad relationships but his issue isn't that he can't say no or gets too fixated on a woman. How often does he say no to Talia? I'm pretty sure Damian only exists because of rape (which is s a whole separate problematic storyline), Selina kinda has to throw herself at him and its not like he's immediately wrapped around her finger when she does. Bruce isn't a guy that thinks, "you're hot and you wants me? Lets fuck".
She made her choice, (which like I said I understand her crush) but Bruce is also making a choice. And I don't see him choosing to fuck his adopted son's ex girlfriend just cause he's horny
Actually depending on the continuity you go by, there's some that state Commissioner Gordon is actually older than Bruce. Heck, in Batman the Animated Series, Batman explicitly states Jim Gordon is around the same age his father would've been if he had been alive, so I wouldn't say Batman is necessarily in the same age range as Jim Gordon.
However, I do agree with you that him getting with Batgirl while she's with Dick Grayson, or even after they break up, is beyond messed up. Plus Batman knows all his wards are more prone to be emotional than he is, which could cause problems if he did something like that, so it's out of character for Batman to do something like that for his own selfish needs.
I thought that was the norm - it is in any continuity I've followed anyway. Heck, doesn't the story sometimes go that 10 year old Bruce is comforted by an _adult_ Jim Gordon? And in several continuities (including the one where Barbara debuted iirc), she and Bruce are the same age! I don't like Bruce and Barbara being together, but I'm not _against_ it in every continuity; it entirely depends on the context. On _all_ the context; age, other relationships, everything.
However, in my "optimal" continuity (and most of the ones I like), there's no way it'd happen; I prefer Babs and Dick being the same age (and together _at least_ for a while) and Batman and Gordon being sort of buddies. _And I really hate that one Batman Beyond comic that tried forcing it into BTAS._
That should be the Norm. Jim should have some years on Bruce.
Jim old.
Batman x Batgirl still dumb.
Time Warner ruins everything they touch these days.
I'd put Gordon at least around 8-10 years older than Bruce, because doesn't Gordon help Bruce first when he's just joining the GCPD?
Gordon being substantially older than Bruce has been the standard for every medium since the 60’s😂
I agree with platonic relationships between men and women. For some reason a lot of media can't just have them be friends.
And I agree there needs to be more platonic relationships with Men and Women in fiction.
I was under the impression that this ship was Bruce Timm's favorite, while Paul Dini preferred a pairing of Batman and Zatanna. Where did Dini say he wanted Bruce and Barbara together?
He didn’t. This guy is just talking out of his ass
I actually ship Bats and Zatanna, the TAS version anyway
Bruce x Zatanna = 😍🤭👍
Bruce x Barbara= 😱🤢🤮😖
Yeah that's what I heard too.
To add on to the Batman/Gordon relationship, in BTAS Batman mentions that Gordon is the same age his father would've been if he wasn't killed.
Personally I more of a Nightwing/Starfire guy, but I can see the appeal for Dick/Babs.
I grew up watching Teen Titans so any other pairing feels wrong or too unfamiliar to me.
I agree completely
I know this is off topic but I need help with my Batman story. I want Catwoman to be older than Batman. In this story, they have a 15 year age gap and I don't know how old to make Batman. How old should he be? I made him 21 but people flip out about age gaps sometimes and I want people to watch this show. I'm 22 and I have a thing for older women so I wanted to include that in my story. Also, I wanted some of the female villains to be Batman's girlfriends before they became villains. For example, maybe Poison Ivy was a scientist and maybe was in a relationship with Bruce before she became Poison Ivy but the problem is that if she is a successful scientist or a college professor she would be in her 40s or something. I'm 22 and I'm into older women but I know people on Twitter would boycott my Batman show because of the age gap so how old should I make Batman? The idea was to make him an adult but not too old but not too young either. Like he's over 18 but not too old. And for the people that will say "the roles were reversed everyone would have an issue" comment. Bruce Wayne's best friend's name is Mallory Moxon and she is the same age as Bruce 21 or 22 and she is in a relationship with Harvey Dent (who will become the villain Two-Face) and he's older than her. Maybe 10 years or older Idk and he's married. I did this so it won't come off as hypocritical or like age gaps are ok when the male is younger but not when the female is younger. How old should I make them?
@@llawliet6262 if you're going for an age gap that big then the older the better I guess. The problem is a 25yo Bruce means a 40yo Catwoman. Maybe go for something like a 8 year gap like 25 Bruce and 33 Catwoman. That or just don't care about twitter cause that's what I'd do
@@mr.protagonist5639 Would you watch my Batman show if Batman is 22 and Catwoman is 37?
Agreed!!! The Bruce x Babs pairing always felt icky and out-of-nowhere.
Dick x Babs have always felt like such a genuine developed pair. Their love story in comics is *chef’s kiss*
funny, as the dick x babs pairing came out of nowhere (after literal decades of platonic relationship) and then they retconned them into haveing a romantic development.
i don't like bruce x babs, but dick x babs is just as bad imo.
I normally don't really see any issue with two people being together despite an age gap so long as they're both adults and didn't know each other before one of them was one. But that last point applies to this, and it makes this come across as creepy and immoral at a minimum. Not to mention the complications it causes with him being good friends with her dad, and the fact that she's dated his adopted son.
yeah pretty fucking weird
Batman the groomer, cucker, and betrayer. Pretty hilarious when you think about it that way
@@jadenbryant9283 not really
I know this is off topic but I need help with my Batman story. I want Catwoman to be older than Batman. In this story, they have a 15 year age gap and I don't know how old to make Batman. How old should he be? I made him 21 but people flip out about age gaps sometimes and I want people to watch this show. I'm 22 and I have a thing for older women so I wanted to include that in my story. Also, I wanted some of the female villains to be Batman's girlfriends before they became villains. For example, maybe Poison Ivy was a scientist and maybe was in a relationship with Bruce before she became Poison Ivy but the problem is that if she is a successful scientist or a college professor she would be in her 40s or something. I'm 22 and I'm into older women but I know people on Twitter would boycott my Batman show because of the age gap so how old should I make Batman? The idea was to make him an adult but not too old but not too young either. Like he's over 18 but not too old. And for the people that will say "the roles were reversed everyone would have an issue" comment. Bruce Wayne's best friend's name is Mallory Moxon and she is the same age as Bruce 21 or 22 and she is in a relationship with Harvey Dent (who will become the villain Two-Face) and he's older than her. Maybe 10 years or older Idk and he's married. I did this so it won't come off as hypocritical or like age gaps are ok when the male is younger but not when the female is younger. How old should I make them?
@@llawliet6262 I dunno how serious you are about writing advice and I'm not gonna pretend I know everything about how fandoms perceive things like this, but I think my attitude towards the age gap is fairly common. I don't think there's any real issue so long as there isn't a pre-existing relationship before they were both adults and neither one had any real power over the other, so I would also stay away from student/teacher relationships if that's something you're thinking of. One thing I will point out though is that I think your version of Batman is too young to actually have had enough time to train and become Batman properly. I would make him 24 at minimum, because I find it hard to believe he could've mastered so many martial arts before that age, even if he started pretty young. Also, if you want people to pay attention and actually like your work, two recommendations I have are not focusing to much on Batman's dating life and don't make the story about what you want rather than what the characters would do. The bit about Batman's dating life is because crime fighting is Batman's first priority in life, and while he does have relationships, the main reason they don't usually go anywhere is because his relationships are more of a secondary aspect of his life that he doesn't prioritize, so it shouldn't be the priority of your writing either. And the second part is because that part where you talked about your own age and preference for older women makes it sound like you're writing Batman as a self insert character rather than Batman being his own character, which will make it very difficult for anything you write to come across as a real story rather than self insert fanfiction. I'm not saying that what you're writing is fan fiction quality, just that it almost sounds like it could be based on what you've written here. I'm not trying be insulting, I'm just making suggestions for what I think might work in a Batman story.
The whole Bruce/Barbara thing honestly strikes me as Bruce Timm vicariously living out a (gross) personal fantasy through this pairing, as though he himself feels attracted to the fictional character of Batgirl and continues to ship her with Batman as though he (Bruce Timm) equates Bruce Wayne with himself, even sharing the same first name as him.
Yeah what makes it worse is Bruce Timm says he loves the ship because its so wrong
A sick mind for sure
@@MeluhKnight what shape?
@@gbrogo7139 I think Feidhlim here meant Bruce Timm loves the "ship" because it's so messed up but either got auto corrected or plainly misspelled it
I know this is off topic but I need help with my Batman story. I want Catwoman to be older than Batman. In this story, they have a 15 year age gap and I don't know how old to make Batman. How old should he be? I made him 21 but people flip out about age gaps sometimes and I want people to watch this show. I'm 22 and I have a thing for older women so I wanted to include that in my story. Also, I wanted some of the female villains to be Batman's girlfriends before they became villains. For example, maybe Poison Ivy was a scientist and maybe was in a relationship with Bruce before she became Poison Ivy but the problem is that if she is a successful scientist or a college professor she would be in her 40s or something. I'm 22 and I'm into older women but I know people on Twitter would boycott my Batman show because of the age gap so how old should I make Batman? The idea was to make him an adult but not too old but not too young either. Like he's over 18 but not too old. And for the people that will say "the roles were reversed everyone would have an issue" comment. Bruce Wayne's best friend's name is Mallory Moxon and she is the same age as Bruce 21 or 22 and she is in a relationship with Harvey Dent (who will become the villain Two-Face) and he's older than her. Maybe 10 years or older Idk and he's married. I did this so it won't come off as hypocritical or like age gaps are ok when the male is younger but not when the female is younger. How old should I make them?
When i was a kid, I thought batgirl was Batman’s daughter and was always uncomfortable with this pairing. You put the words out of my mouth and this video is very well worded. Good job!
Why I agree Bruce needs to end up with Selina, Dick should end up with Starfire. Neither against Barbara but I just like Dick and Starfire much more. Blame the Teen Titans.
I've always felt more of a fling between Jason and Babs more then Bruce with her
I also prefer Dick and Kori, would love to see their daughter Nightfire in a teen titans series revival in a time travel ep
@@MeluhKnight everyone prefers Dick and Kori man it's not a hot take
@@partyelixir1265 by right, no one should feel a fling between Bruce and Babs. Literally any relationship is better
@@titan2k928 I couldn't agree more
Whether hetero or LGBT, we need more platonic character relationships. More people who can be close without flinging their genitals around. Depict friendship - something lacking in the real world, too - more.
Boy meets world had a great platonic relationship I recalled Sean and Angela comforting each other in bed and neither one's respective bf/gf had an issue with it. Classic heartfelt moments.
the dick grayson-babara gordon relationship used to be a cool platonic one, up untill the 90s, then DC decided that not only should their relationship become romantic but they needed to retcon their pasts to be romantic too.
Agreed, what happened to that. Why can't professionals just be professionals
Raven and Robin in Teen Titans and Wally and Shyera in JL come to mind.
Bruce Timm really has tried everything he could to make this pairing cannon, very sickening 🥶
What I think is even more insane is that he never even has them having a thing together be more than just a thing that happens. In Batman Beyond it's all after the fact and done with, all it is is a gross tidbit we all have to live with. The only possible thing it adds is making Old Barbara being so antagonistic comes off as her being a spurned ex-lover. The Killing Joke Batman barely seemed interested in Barbara. Before they do it he's calling her reckless and out of line then she jumps on him and tears her clothes off and he's like :| "okay I'll do you I guess" and after he's stoic and without any interest in Barbara and Barbara turns neurotic and sex-starved when he doesn't call her back... How is the fact that they screwed important to anything in the Killing Joke? This ship is nothing! It's literally just Bruce Timm wanting Batman to bang every female he's in close proximity to as a thinly veiled power fantasy.
One of the reasons I *personally* think of Batman Beyond as an alternate timeline is this. I can't find it in me to get past a Batman who would be so predatory to date a woman half his age (she mentions him being at or around 40 in the Calendar Girl episode and she's in her first year of college in the original BTAS) and his son's girlfriend. It makes it awkward to watch episodes where he's parental to Dick to know that he'd eventually betray his son like that. This in the same continuity where we waste multiple seasons of Justice League of Bruce and Diana? All for what? We know how he ends up in Batman Beyond, and we know his thing with Barbara was what led to her quitting so he left Diana for Batgirl...
I also feel better thinking of it as alternate cause I hate knowing a definitive future for characters, it just makes things happening after that series way less interesting to know how they'll end up rather than not having to fit things into a set ending.
Just about every Batman is a new continuity, Beyond is only the future of the TAS/JLU universe if that.
@@autobotstarscream765 I meant an alternate timeline to the DC animated universe. It was my introduction to DC comics and it means a lot to me, but for some of the reasons I prefer to think of the Batman Beyond canon as a possible timeline rather than a definitive one. I know it's not "canon" but I like it better than having my perception of Batman be that he'd sleep with his son's girlfriend. It really would ruin him in my eyes as a person who cares about his sons. That and knowing exactly what happens in the far future where the characters are all completely miserable and tortured by the past is kind of dreary and depressing.
Truth
@@Nightman221k just like the Last Jedi
There was a weird thing with the DCAU and Bruce borderline cuckolding people. He dates Lois in front of Clark, Barbara in front of Dick, etc. There was even one episode of JLU that reveals that Amanda Waller overwrote the DNA in the testicles of Warren McGinnis so that he was shooting Bruce Wayne's seed into his wife. Which is just like... what the fuck, man?
That batgirl and bruce relationship is just disgusting Tbh
It’s really Bruce Tim’s fault. He has a weird fetish
@@JaketheMovieGeek
Batman and Wonder Woman was a lot better unfortunately Bruce timm never made it Canon
*Hot
You gotta admire dick grayson+ donna troy for being friends since the 60s and never having been a couple, maybe the less cliche relantioship on the DC universe(aparently there were talks of it on new teen titans, but it was shot down, hope it stays like that)
Dick + a Titan that isn't Starfire would go over like a lead balloon with everyone who grew up with the 2003 show.
@@autobotstarscream765 yeah lets hope they think like that when they bring this idea in some future writers room XD
Btw I think dick+donna idea was shot down in like the 80s or 90s
It's a lot creepier when you realize that in one of the episodes Bruce states that she's known her since she was a kid, so I looks more like he's been waiting for her to hit 18
Having finished the 1960s show recently, I was surprised to see that the whole Batgirl/Bruce Wayne "attraction" started there. Like there were scenes where she would flurt more with Batman and show no interest to Robin whatsoever. Also, James Gordon in the 60s show tries to pair Bruce with Barbara when she comes home from college. And that's actually where the character started.
and i think Barbara was also kinda young there
@@jadenbryant9283 also, I think if Paul Dini and Bruce Timm were raised on that show, it would definitely explain why they had the idea in their heads for those two characters to be together. The thought process being "Well they were implied to fancy each other in our childhood 60s show, why not do it or imply it in our 90s animated show to".
@@adamfreddo5703 even though it doesent work in the dcau or almost any property sucks too because I love the dcau
Jaden Bryant It seemed like the original Barbara in the 60’s was between the age of Dick and Bruce and was set up to create a love triangle.
I’ve also noticed how it seemed like Commissioner Gordon was trying to set Bruce up with Barbara. In my head-canon Golden and Silver Age Gordon was a social climbing gold digger trying to get his beloved daughter married off to his millionaire friend. I mean we never saw him or Chief O’Hara do actual police work. He was always just a guest at bigwig social occasions, hanging out at the -Playboy Mansion- Wayne Manor, and the extent of the GCPD’s work was turning on the Batsignal (or calling the red phone) to give Batman information.
Barbara was working as a librarian in the 60s show and was in her early 20s. Dick I think was a senior in HS so just a few years younger. Bruce (Adam West) was about 40 at the time and I personally think would have been too old for her.
In BTAS it always bugged me when Timm wanted to pair [this] Bruce and Barbara together. He kept insisting everyone was on board and it's not a problem but I know I'm not the only one who was bothered by this pairing. If she were a decade older when introduced, maybe. But we were introduced to a teenage girl and Dick was a college freshman (age 18-19).
I have a pet peeve against this ship. I always thought that the sidekicks would be most likely to go with each other, like Stephanie and Tim did in the 90’s comics. But Batman in my mind should only ever live a long and relatively lonely life until he dies, or get with Catwoman, preferably the latter because I think he deserves to be happy.
EDIT: Sorry, TIM and Stephanie.
Yeah I ALWAYS hated it. Even as a kid, it just felt really wrong. It literally makes no sense for Bruce Goody-Two-Shoes Wayne to get with a barely-18 college girl who also dated his son. Bruce Timm is great and all but... God this is weird.
I totally agree with all of this
Barbara always has this younger learning vibe and it seemed like Bruce being with her is totally taking advantage especially when her and Dick date pretty often meaning she is young enough to be a daughteresk figure
I agree with you completely, pairing Bruce and Babs romantically shows a complete misunderstanding of their characters. My one major problem with the DCAU is that it planted that seed.
When first seen the scene in the Killing Joke when the made love underneath the gargoyle, I never dreamed it would happened unexpectedly. I thought " Get it on get it on get it over with." It felt like it was taking my breath away.
They could have found another reason why Richard leaves Batman and becomes Nightwing.
Definitely out of character. The many points you made I agree with that Barbara always felt like she was a daughter to Bruce like the other Robins always felt like sons. And it just feels right seeing Dick and Barbara paired together and Bruce and Selina paired together. I mean imagine if they suddenly pushed it out of nowhere and paired Nightwing and Catwoman together as a potential couple. That feels kind of wrong because that’s never been the dynamic between those characters like how it is for Batman and Catwoman.
I do have a suggested video since you been doing VH1 reality show videos although I’m gonna detour with suggesting you spotlight a reality competition show that was on TBS. I’m not sure if you at all watched it but I’m talking about King of the Nerds a reality competition show that aired on TBS from 2013-2015 and ran for three seasons a total of 24 episodes for the whole series. It was to as the title suggests to crown the next King of the Nerds and it was hosted and produced by Robert Carradine and Curtis Armstrong from the film Revenge of the Nerds. I think it might make for an interesting video getting your unfiltered thoughts on it.
There was an odd TNBA episode "You Scratch My Back" where they sort of played off a Nightwing/Catwoman thing, but it ended with a Batgirl and Nightwing pairing moment.
@@Nightman221k while I don’t think Catwoman would genuinely fall for Nightwing I feel like she would definitely flirt with him since she’s got that sort of playful personality.
This might be one of your best character analysis videos yet. Any point I thought of making, you addressed it wonderfully. All around, this relationship just taints the Bat mythology.
I would love to see your take on the on Punchline, Joker and Harley story
The problem is that the story never really says there's anything wrong with a late 30s/early 40s and barely early 20s relationship and whatever, they're adults, it's more of a personal and cultural thing, but the characters in specific is why this is so disgusting. Jim Gordon goes between best friend, to brother, to even father figure sometimes to Bruce
Batman & Batgirl is like Wolverine & Jean Grey. There's the age difference, it usually being one sided in the beginning, and the fact that live together with another guy who she's involved with.
That a disturbingly accurate comparison. Especially when Batman and Wolverine get to act like jerks because the writers favor them.
@MirrorUniverse Zot that's still a 15 year difference. I think people dating who are 6-10 apart in age is pushing it, any romantic relationship above 10 years is just discussing. Besides, what you just said about Bruce being 45 and Barbara 30 when they first get together means in 20 years she'll be 50 and he'll be old enough for retirement.
@MirrorUniverse Zot says the person who commented on my post about how weird its not. And I'm not the only person who cares, Vee Infuso the one who went into detail about why they shouldn't be together, talk to him if you have a problem with others having a problem with Batgirl & Batman being shipped.
@MirrorUniverse Zot and you don't understand how opinions work and that as Vee Infuso stated, Batman is somewhat a surrogate father to Batgirl and if you don't find it disturbing, than perhaps your the prolem.
Wtf
Bruce is only 8 years older than barbara
Thomas wayne is from the same generation as jim gordon not bruce
What fatherly relationship?
And in their origin history barbara and bruce always end up in a triangle with grayson
What the writers tried to show is
Batman at the end of the day has to set place to bruce wayne the billionaire playboy
The prince of gotham who protects gotham by pure heritage
Yes going with barbara was a dick move
Since she was or just broke with grayson
But like bruce says to grayson
She made her choice
She pursue bruce not the reverse
The age gab is nothing
The only problem i have with it is
That bruce knew that f*cking barbara would break grayson
I always wanted di caprio to play Batman… and this just makes me want it more!
Leo is one of the greatest ever but I can’t see him as Batman
Yeah, he certainly has that dating teenagers thing down
Okay, that's actually an awesome joke lmao
😳 Oh my...
Good one.
I really hate this pairing so much. I really can't blame Dick Grayson for having enough of Bruce after this. His father figure starts dating his girlfriend or ex or whatever. That is a massive dick move. There is also the big age distance and you know her father is his best friend. The whole thing makes both feel like terrible people.
Yeah this basically nailed the the pin in the coffin of why Knightwing is my favorite character in the bat-family. I mean, I like Batman and his villains, but more so I like that he’s a human that fights super-powered people and insane people. The thing is, Dick Grayson is the same thing and he’s just a way better character imo. Leader of the teen titans, he’s optimistic, charming, LOYAL and he still does all the things Batman does without being a complete jerk most of the time (maybe in the HBO titans he a lil shady). Batman is mostly a super brooding and vengeance type and I like that. However sometimes Batman has no borders, no lines, he won’t kill but he’ll sleep with his sons girlfriend with no remorse. Or make contingencies for the justice league, his best friends. Not all versions of Bruce are like this, and I know he’s not supposed to be perfect. But when you see flaws like this. Like sleeping with Barbara.. his protégé, it outshines and like the video said, “puts a bad taste in your mouth, (least sexual way possible)”. Lol
It's strange in many ways and yes I'm saying this even if the roles were reversed. Batgirl is both his partner. Daughter to gordan who works with Batman sometimes. Younger as she is a teenager to Batman being an adult. Dated Batman Nightwing and red hood at some point which is honestly disgusting.
Story wise it's just strange and Batgirl works better with Nightwing and red hood anyways as Nightwing tries his best to not be like Batman but as Oracle she knows him and wants him to grow while red hood she made him stop killing immediately after they kissed and thier relationship only failed because the letter Jason gave her was cleaned up by the janitor.
Batman didn't take advantage of her but at the same time it wasn't a good plot anyways even in Batman beyond. Just a strong male figure aside her dad would have been cool to show how his job is just as hard as the Batman's and stuff.
At least she doesn't try to date tim or Damian where she is more of an older sister figure instead which makes it twice as Strange when she could be potentially Damian's mama too.
She does date Tim in the Arkham games, which i hated with a passion.
@@MonkeyKingsformerroomate yeah I just remembered that myself after posting this. I was more so focused on the Jason Todd thing as that could have worked amazing to Jason making him a hero. Heck Tim drake helped him in the killing joke what if scene.
But yeah Barbara is kinda gross in these aspects dating everyone except Alfred and Damian
@@ivanbluecool I must have missed where she hooks up with Jason.... I swear if they get adult Damian in there...
@@MonkeyKingsformerroomate injustice Damian is a thing so...... probably if she wants mini Batman
Jason Todd is only in the comics while Batgirl dates Batman in the movies and Nightwing in Lego Batman.
But yeah if she ever does that I'll lose all respect for her and she is one of my favorites (aside the whole bat family thing she does)
@@ivanbluecool I read a lot of nightwing. Even if he treated her kinda shitty at one point. Sleeping with her THEN telling her he's engaged to Starfire. He's really the only one I like with her.
That episode of BTAS where Bruce sees all the women he loved on the monitor. The Batgirl popping up is a big wtf, even when you was young and watching them cartoons.
She's a 20 year old,He's a 50 year old, her father is probably his best friend.......But WHAT THE HELL?!
LET'S MAKE THEM A COUPLE SO HE CAN BE A LITTLE SAD (FOR BASICALLY 2 SECONDS) ABOUT HER BEING SHOT BY THE JOKER.
He's between 40 and 45
I'd say he's 38-40.
i'd say he is closer to 35-40, still doesn't make it alright tho.
@@pavvin In the Calendar Girl episode Batgirl quips that he's the same age as Calendar Girl who was over 40 and Barbara is in her early years of college. 20 year age gap minimum.
Tell me not, when they kiss it's like
Barb:😳😩😚
Bruce:😐😐😗😐
I would love to see an opinion peice on Joker having an origin story.
Lego Batman is arguably the only story where they worked in a relationship. Barbara was a grown woman and Bruce was still figuring things out and had no prior affiliation with her or Gordon up to that point which makes it less manipulative as you put it with other iterations like… The Killing joke movie 🤢
I am inclined to agree about the preferred relationship being Batman and Selina, the both of them just play off each other far better. The Wonfsr woman ship also worked to a degree but was never gonna last. Mostly because Bruce is just a mortal and Diana is Immortal.
when i saw this before i knew it was *WRONG*
bruce lost a 2 allies that day
11:12 “keep my girlfriend’s name out your *FUCKING MOUTH* “
LOl
I thought it was Bruce Timm that pushed the pairing of Batman and Girl. It's sad to know Paul Dini felt that way too. You're correct it makes Bruce look like a dirty old man. Bruce plays the womanizer as his Bruce Wayne disguise to have him step into this behavior as Batman strips more of his morals away.
It was 100% Bruce Timm. I’m not sure why he said Paul Dini. Paul Dini’s thing was for Zatanna
@@gbrogo7139 it was the comics
Yeah shoutouts to Timm for his art and everything else for the DCAU but this... Not sure on why he was so insistent on making this a thing in continuity. At least just keep it to the unrelated lewd artwork if you really wanted to draw the ship for the sake of drawing something taboo. Like that stuff is fire, I've seen the Batman x Harley stuff lol. But why add it to the SHOW? Didn't need that, but now its at least just an awkward AS specific tidbit that thankfully most writers since just avoid altogether.
The only way it can work if Barbra was older like in The LEGO Batman film.
That's exactly what i said
Hi ya', Vee! Eesh, this is a tricky one for me. While this pairing was never my favorite, I've learned to accept it in certain continuities. For instance, in the DCAU it is stated in the "B:TAS" episode "I Am the Night" that Commissioner Gordon is the same age that Bruce's father would be if he'd have lived. I know it's a blink and you miss it moment, but it is technically in there. What muddied the whole thing in the DCAU is the closer relative age between Bruce and both Dick and Barbara than normally is the case. So, people Bruce once dated aren't necessarily off the table for Dick and vice versa (see Nightwing and Catwoman in "You Scratch My Back"). Having crunched the numbers (with the help of WDB), I think, here, Bruce is more like 12-15 years older than Dick and Barbara, so a relationship between them isn't so off from that perspective.
Additionally, I felt like the the way Barbara recounts it to Terry in "Beyond" technically makes sense. There she says they worked together for so long at a point that they felt like the perfect team (also likely not having many other prospects). So they gave it a try, before Barbara realized all they really had in common was their "line of work." At which point she broke it off.
I think the reason I've become more okay with this is that (in the DCAU) we mostly only hear of it after the fact, at which point it is chalked up to a fling, essentially. So you're never really meant to be rooting for them to get together, as they've already had their history and are now just friends. Thereby, as far as meant-to-be-failed relationships go, I can see how Timm and co. didn't think it would ruffle so many feathers as it did.
However, I still get where you and a majority of the fandom are coming from in that it feels sort of beneath Batman, especially, given her prior history with Dick. Again, I feel less bothered about the "weirdness" in terms of Jim, in that I could see an argument being made that Barbara is dating someone she knows her father would approve of and I could see Bruce being happy with the idea of Jim as a father-in-law (again given his being a contemporary of Thomas). However, even still, I think its revelation in "Beyond" is meant to almost depict Bruce and his era of partners as faliable people, warts and all, making Terry often doubt whether or not he should trust the man he's working with today based on the dissent of his former partners. Plus, it shows what being Batman cost Bruce, as Barbara moved on and married D.A. Sam Young. So yeah, them's my thoughts.
I completely agree with this, i like how it's potrayed in the recountings in Beyond, of it being a far-gone fling that just happened, didin't work out, and ended on it's own, they totally misrepresented the events in the Batman Beyond 2.0 comic book flashbacks with all the drama surrounding Dick's relationship with Barbara, but at least that isn't the same canon as the animated show, even if it is similar.
@@prometheusmodelow8322 and while I don't agree at least in batman beyond and the DCAU you can mostly ignore it in The killing joke and Batman Beyond 2.0 you really can't ignore it
“What are you doing step bat?”
Bruce Timm and Paul Dini are Deviantart shippers who just so happened to be in control of the Batman mythos #changemymind
Dude, c’mon. Every show creator was some DeviantArt/Tumblr shipper who was given a show.
Case in point, Rebecca Sugar who used to due slash fiction of Eddy and Double D.
This was mainly Bruce Timm. I think Dini was responsible for the Zatanna and Batman relationship, which is actually really good.
One video idea i would find interesting for you to analyze would be the episode in the justice league cartoon "a better world".
More specifically the debate of philosophy between the 2 batman. I love the qoute "And with that power, we've made a world where no eight-year-old boy will ever lose his parents... because of some punk with a gun."
I personally feel bad about the gargoyle statue on the rooftop that had to witnessed the whole thing between the two. 😳
😂😂😂😂☝️that’s funny
To this day I will never understand why people are so freaked out by this it's quite literally a second language for bruce to have sex with any girl that knows his identity
Hey I like the idea of on Batman Beyond, apparently her and Lucius Fox's son get together.
That wasn't Lucius' son
@@wesleywiggins958 well whatever. The point is she was in a relationship with somebody else besides Batman.
@@grapeshot
Honestly Luke Fox is one of the most underrated bat family related characters who deserves his own ongoing comic book run and his own TV show
Pairing Luke Fox and Barbara Gordon together is actually not a bad idea
@@wesleywiggins958
Even so it was a lot better than shipping Barbara with Bruce
Ironically enough both Barbara and Luke dated for a while in The New 52
@@wesleywiggins958 oh that's not his son?
I think the only time it worked for me was in Batman Beyond. Where it helped showed Bruce’s eventual fall from grace. Where he became a lonely old man with a dog.
I couldn't agree more! I loathe this pairing for all of the same points you brought up, it has always felt wrong to me just like that time 9can't remember specifically which comic) when Selena was coming on to Dick Grayson, again it just made me shudder and feel all kinds of WRONG! Bruce belongs with Selena and as for Babs, I'm ok with her paired to Dick or Tim (or no one!), I don't see her and Jason getting along well enough for a relationship, waaaaaay too different.
her main relationship for alot of the comics was a cop named Jason Bard. thats the only jason she works with, lol.
Good video that I 100% agree with. Maybe a video on how Jason Todd is handled because if you ask me, Jason is the most underutilized Robin. For christ sakes, it took us TWO seasons of Young Justice and constant denial from the writers just to confirm that yes, the Robin Hologram in Mt. Justice was Jason. It almost feels like he gets the shaft in most variations of DC because he's the one that died, and thanks to Stephanie and Damian, he's not even the only one yet Damian at least has an entire series of animated movies of which he's a major player in
I watched the video, but I still don't understand what's wrong with it. There were no arguments, just a subjective opinion. Just because it was different in the comics. That's all.
Please never change your outro it’s too iconic
Batman grooming a young girl? Who is he, Deathstroke?
LOL
I believe the more accurate comparisson is Hal Jordan
Jim Gordan: "That Batgirl's quite the looker huh?" Batman: "Let's change the subject". XD
And that is why Catwoman is best girl
Eeyup!
Not only is this pairing hella creepy and really is just unnecessary family drama but it also does her character TERRIBLY as well as Bruce at that.
Bruce is basically an uncle to Barbara also he would never do this to his son
10000% Agree! The Bat and The Cat is the only way
Was definitely a weird one, he treats her as his daughter and as a kid like he does the Robins, plus I prefer her with Nightwing
Thank goodness for the #WonderBat pairing in JL/JLU for washing this pairing out of my mind.
I’m actually kinda fine with their relationship in BAS. Cause its actually shows that Bruce Wayne not actually ultimate perfect guy, can sometimes make poor decisions and screw up big time. In the Killing joke movie though it was absolutely unnecessary.
It still feels wrong because it's a mistake that makes, like, no sense. Think about it like this: Making contingency plans to ice his friends if they go bad? That's a mistake, but it makes sense for his character to find it necessary to do. What doesn't make sense is for Bruce to say "Oh wow! My best friend's daughter and son's ex-girlfriend is SINGLE and WOW SHE'S HOT! I'm hittin' that!" especially in the context of everything he does in the animated series.
@@jodikusiii well first of all, mistakes often doesn’t make sense for an observer because… well… its a mistake, leaps of judgment called that way for a reason. Also outside of the vacuum of their relationships with Dick and Commissioner and age difference aside, their relationship actually make sense: they’re both working together in highly stressful environment (which means adrenaline rush and endorphins associated with time spent together) and they have no need to conceal their vigilante “careers” from each other, so in this regard Barbara very similar to Selina Kyle BUT she also plays in the same team as Batman. Also Bruce Wayne are depicted as a polygamous person, he had like 6 girlfriends even before Justice League Animated Series that brought Wander Woman relationship to the table… for some reason.
So even considering how Batman is almost perfect in every way possible, can I believe that he sometimes thinks with his dick rather than head? Yeah I can, so this mistake make sense to me.
@@slammydunk9787 batman is the most methodical guy you will ever meet. thinking with his head is his whole thing. and your basic argument is "Well, aside from every disgusting, revolting thing that makes this ship a terrible idea, it makes a little sense!"
also, batman is not perfect. he only trusts himself, he's kind of fucking crazy, and after decades he's still so torn up over his parent's death he dresses up as a bat at night to beat up poor people.
i don't think you've ever read a comic book.
@@jodikusiii bAtMaN iS NoT PeRfECT but all of his “flaws” only adds to his “cool factor”. And yet if there’s something actually questionable about him, well its just “BAD WRITING THAT DOESNT MAKE SENSE NOT MUH BATMAN HE COULDN’T DO THIS” Also I didn’t say that this ship was good and that I like it, I just said I fine with it, because it shows Bruce Wayne as actual person who can screw up and not in a cool way.
@@slammydunk9787 i don't think you, like, understand the character of batman. like, at all. batman has flaws, he is a flawed character. but there are better flaws than him fucking a college girl that he's known since she was a baby.
read a comic book.
please.
Batman FR be like: "Age is only a number."
Bruce timm was the main person behind shipping barbara not Paul dini
Paul Dini seems to prefer his Bat/Cat ship. Bruce Timm just wants Batman to bang every woman in DC comics to live vicariously through Bruce Wayne.
@@Nightman221k Really?
The thing I hated most in Batman Beyond is when Terry asks Barbara about their relationship and ewwww
I can only see this being a good pairing if, as someone else mentioned, Dick was Batman, or is Barbara was not Batgirl in the continuity.
The only time, the only WAY I can make this pairing work in my head (in the animated continuity at least), is if it occurred at a point where Bruce and Barbara had no one left in their lives. Dick's in Bludhaven, Tim's retired after the events of ROTJ and left Bruce's care, Alfred's dead, Jim's dead, and Bruce has quit the Justice League. All that's left is him and Barbara, fighting crime in Gotham every night with no support system other than each other. That's how I figured it happened for years based on Barbara's comments in Beyond. But no, they had to go and say it happened still in the prime of their careers.
Bruce and Selina or Bruce and Diana. Nobody else.
Lame. Everybody knows Bruce and Clark is the OTP of Bat ships.
@@BigK13372 😭😭
Zatanna?
I aree with you 100% she's Gordon's daughter his best friend and mentor and his adopted son's long-term girlfriend. So it just comes off wrong, it's not a choice I would make or most people let alone Batman and Batgirl
"realistically, she doesn't even seem like she's his type"
*shows video of batman kissing a furry*
idk man, i think the only aspect he likes about her is that she goes by her batsona
To be fair in that scene he was just seducing Cheetah so she could let him free (he was trapped by the villains version of an early justice league in that episode)
“You know why I can break the bro code?”
“Don’t say it…Please don’t…”
“BECAUSE I AM BATMAN!!!”
“Dang it! You said it!!!”
Barbara is canonically older than Dick so The age diference with Bruce is like 10 years or so not 20
Yeah generally bruce and barbara has a 8 to 10 years gab
The age gab is fine
Especially for bruce wayne
I think people idolise batman too much
They forget that at the end of the day
Batman has to come back as bruce wayne
@@heroeus8173 yeah and even if its kinda weird, current Barbara is like 30 and Bruce is like 42, and this age gap for adults its very common and its not ilegal or anything like that
I thought Barb and Dick were the same age.
@@heroeus8173 U mean “gap?”
@@xs0528 barbara is older than dick
Two years
In some versions five years
Yeah gap
It's weird when it was mentioned Batman Beyond and then shown pics later on.
At this point Batman and Wonder Woman make a lot more sense as a couple than Bruce and Barbara and Clark and Diana
It’s really BRUCE TIM’s fault. He has a weird fetish
I don't know about placing blame on Paul Dini. If you notice the common denominator with BTAS and The Killing Joke: Bruce Timm and his obsession with Yvette from the Adam West show bleeding into both projects. Then there's Batman: Harley Quinn which oyyyyyyyy vey.
Im my opinion Barbara wanting to be with batman is okay, it makes sense honestly. BUT Bruce giving is a definitely not lmao. Not at all😭
I think of Babs as Bruce's surrogate niece.
A lot of people who got angry at that fact that Rose on episode eight of Star Wars had a thing for the black guy. Because people seem to still have a problem with interracial relationships when it comes down to Black men. But of course when everybody else does it, it's love knows no color.
@@darkphoenix2745 That and they really misused Finn's character. He could have been so much more.
I think this is a Bruce Tim thing. It was shipped as far back as batman beyond. And maybe btas.
I think his quote was " of course we knew it was wrong.. that's why we did it"
It's From a special feature in the Batman the animated series season 3 DVD box set.
Agreed with everything expect for Nightwing ending up with Batgirl. Nightwing and Starfire is way better.
April Fools already ended, pal.
"Anybody can be a hero, even a lunatic billionaire who sleeps with the daughter of the man who showed him that the world didn't end"
i think Dick Grayson and Barbra Gordon are a better pair
It was done for shock value, that's all. It's as close to incest (if one goes on the Batfamily motif) as cousinhumper from beyond the Badlands.
I still think Dick should be with Starfire and not have him and Barbara be in a relationship at all. They work better as friends, Dick and Barbara. I agree with the point at the beginning of the video that a guy and a girl in a story doesn't HAVE to be romantically attached, that it's ok for them to be just friends, and I think that applies to Dick and Barbara as well. Leave Starfire for Dick.
Eeyup.
I could not agree more. That subplot marred what was otherwise a good adaptation of the source material.
Why are you blaming Paul Dini!? It's all Bruce Timms doing
I’m pretty sure Paul was in that idea, too.
Imagine Commissioner Gordon reaction when he found out about Batman and Batgirl.
the episode over the edge but not a dream
Idk if it’s just the pubescent teenager in me but… batgirl in the killing joke is kinda Hot… 😳
probably by design
I didn't even know this was a thing until I saw the watsed Killing Joke film and yeah it's the WORST Batman relationship first off I imagend Bruce, Harvey and Gorden growing up together and being around the same age and treating each other like siblings and to imagend Bruce getting with is homies's daughter is just grimy not to mention she is the ex of his first son which makes Barbra look like she was only with him to get closer to Bruce and THEN the age bro's in his 40's and she's in either high school or college which makes me feel he should be in Arkham Asylum for grooning young impresionable crime fighters
I honestly don’t have a problem with it. In The Killing Joke, Batgirl is depicted as being in her early to mid twenties. As long as they are both consenting adults, it shouldn’t be an issue. The reasons given for why this relationship is inappropriate are always quite poor. As an adult, Bargirl doesn’t need her father’s permission or approval to date Batman. She can do what she wishes. Just because Batman knew her as a teenager, that doesn’t mean he was necessarily grooming her. After all, in most versions, he’s reluctant to get into the relationship. Saying that something feels weird or strange is not a sufficient enough reason to say that it’s wrong. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve realized that age is an arbitrary and trivial thing. Love often transcends the arbitrary trivialities of time. Yes, the fact that they’re casually sleeping around could be seen as inappropriate, but that would apply to almost every relationship Batman has had, not just with Batgirl.
As long as she is consenting it fine, but her knowing Bruce at a young age one at point feels wrong and in general this relationship feels forced and unnecessary.
I can understand those points tbh. I probably would feel better if it was probably with a much less prominent age gape. Or not seemingly on the back of your ex-boyfriends adopted father either. Though once again, it's pretty arbitrary. Probably would have gotten less flack if it was Jason or Tim. Like in the Arkham series
It's really more criticized on a level of it going against their personalities. We never really get any indication of Bruce feeling particularly interested in Barbara that way and she's dated Dick. We're to assume that if he and Barbara get together that Bruce was lusting after his son's girlfriend and that he felt that way a long time. And for Bruce, who appears to take being a father seriously, him willingly hurting his son like that just is not in character. We never see him betray someone's trust like that much less his own son.
Finally a take that I agree with here. People don't have to agree that it's a good ship but their reasonings are a bit weak. Aside from the cheating angle of it, I see nothing wrong
Ngl every time I’ve watched killing joke I just skip to where the actual killing joke store starts.
I have yet to meet ANYONE who likes or approves of this pairing. I don't know why writers keep pushing these two together. The fans have expressed their disgust over and over, yet writers keep circling back to this pairing, which, I'm sorry to say, sounds ripped right out of a trashy soap opera. The Batman universe deserves better.
I approve of it. The only people having a problem with Batgirl going after Batman are those that simply cannot handle seeing Batgirl as a grownup.
@@ClockworkGearhead I have no problem with her being a grown up. I have a problem with her being his son’s ex and his best friend’s daughter
@@ShepherdWilliamson Adopted son. And calling Gordon a "friend' is a stretch.
@@ClockworkGearhead so what if he’s adopted that still his son
I always thought batgirl just a crush and admire Batman and he wouldn’t return turn it because he see her as a niece/daughter figure like geralt and ciri type.
The rise of Game of Thrones and Incest Porn made this ship acceptable. Too many searches for daddy daughter, mom son, brother sister, the algorithm knows and recommends.