Okay, there's a *HUGE* factor missing from this conversation. It's not that the comics were different than the movies that made them fail. It's because the people who had taken over both Marvel and DC were creating objectively terrible comics and attacking the fans for rejecting them. Comics were a reasonably sustainable business with the fanbase before the movies but bad creative decisions and poor fan relations drove away the built-in customers they had before and offered nothing but trash products to potential new readers. Regarding Star Wars, sales for those comics collapsed around the time of the Disney trilogy, too because it threw out everything that the fanbase had grown to love, replaced it with an inferior product, and then attacked them for rejecting it. *NO ONE* be it fans or casual ticket buyers, going to see a Star Wars movie wants to go digging for more information in other mediums because the story is incomplete. If they love a story they may want to consume new adventures in other mediums that they also enjoy but if they have to spend money to piece it together then you're just giving your audience homework to do. That's so dumb that fact that people try to do it after years of it never working is inexplicable. Every time I'm in a production meeting where someone starts talking about trans-media, I want to start giving Stone Cold stunners.
There's nothing wrong with any of what you wrote. Those are the observations of most other long-time comic books including myself, too. The problem is the people in charge of the movie studios and comic book companies are THE WRONG PEOPLE to be running those companies. Also, they're so insulated and arrogant they're not listening to reasonable people. This is why both the comic book companies and the superhero movies are failing now. With the exception of the latest Spider-Man film, the superhero films this year have objectively failed. There's more like the ESG mandate set in by the Obama administration (which is going to extend the time these companies Eff up existing characters) but fundamentally the people running the legacy companies don't care as long as the money is coming in. The problem is they are not the type of people who can figure out what is going. They don't "get" the creative side of things and they don't understand the importance of company/customer relations. They've been arrogant -- especially at Disney and Marvel -- to believe the vast majority of us will just automatically hand over money and not care about the quality of the entertainment. They're clueless if they think they can continue to put out shovelware and the public will just continue to eat it up. Most of us who value are entertainment dollars have already moved on from mainstream comics and the MCU.
if the story isn't complete on its own, if it can't stand alone, it's not trans media done properly. That's the point you are missing. Just because people are not able to do it doesn't mean it's bad.
Not that the company do it wrong. The problem is the company doesn't let old characters go. Look at manga in Japan. New characters new worlds are coming all the time. US comics stuck with batman spiderman for way too long. It's the main reason why it cannot grow. Pre awareness matters. Sales matters. Sales come up, value art come down.
Hollywood, and this guy included, gets this all wrong every time... When you have an existing IP and you make a movie about it, what you've inherited is not a fanbase, it's a critics-base. You've inherited a group of people who feel like they own these characters and stories, and they will ruin you if you choose to fuck it up... Notice how I said CHOOSE... Like choosing to "reimagine" characters and stories... You will lose, and rightly so. What was done to Luke Skywalker was a travesty...
I have to respectfully disagree with some points in that opening quote. About the movies not helping sell Marvel comics: Have you read any of the comic books since the MCU came out? They stink. They keep coming up with bad story arcs for existing/established characters, and create new characters that are terrible, and that's why the comics don't sell anymore. People will buy a comic book because of the movie, but they'll stop buying it when they realize that the comics is not as good as the movie. Manga sells millions because they are good, whether or not they have a movie tie-in. About comics not helping movie sales: people watched Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Wonder Woman, etc., primarily because they were in the comics. You may not be a comic fan, you may not have read Superman, but you know who he is. You know who Batman is, who Spiderman is. And that's why you watched their movies. And about making a movie and a comic book at the same time: why would I do that? Just my two cents.
The biggest difference between Marvel and Star Wars is marvel still used the baseline backgrounds/traits of their characters given to them in the comics, they still called back to them when needed idea, also multiverses were already a thing in comics long before the MCU came out. Star Wars threw everything out (we are talking about 40+ years of in universe story/character development, and that’s just the after Return of the Jedi content) and started with a clean slate, they didn’t use anything that had been already established to create the sequels, so that in itself created some resentment from the get go. While most fans did expect some changes, and some things reworked because EU wasn’t 100% perfect, we weren’t expecting the mess that we got - a unplanned storyline, that doesn’t even work as a proper follow on to the original trilogy, characters that came off as poor man versions of some of the EU characters, the main original characters all done dirty, the list goes on... Add in the fact that Kathy the audacity to whine about having no source material to work with in that Rolling Stone interview, GTFO you had the material sweetheart you CHOSE not to actually use it.
I feel like he is focusing on something that's not even that relevant to begin with. "Don't make a movie and a comic book at the same time".... Trust me, everybody knows.
This video hits home. I'm in the process of taking a sci-fi screen play I wrote in 2002 and developing it into a comic book series. I have sat on it for so long... but now I'm working on developing it into a different platform.
Both comics and film are incredibly hard to be successful with BUT production costs on a comic book is much much easier to manage as well as the creation Of a finished product. Good luck man.
There is very little synergy from mcu movies and current era comics. The films themselves will borrow from past events (which they should) and classic trades will get bought. But the biggest problem of modern comics is the exorbitant costs. $4-5+ an issue for 22 pages of art & story
A lot of times the people in charge of comics eliminated the characters who were popular in the MCU. They made every wrong decision in comics in the last five years.
Most of these questions can be quite easily answered by anyone who actually reads comics & understands the Comic business. The actual sales of Ironman comics is irrelevant to Disney. Marvel & DC's owners only want them to sell comics to keep characters alive in pop-culture & give them new stories so they could be adapted into other mediums. Batman comics sells a lot but where do you think real money comes from? Merchandising. Batman toys, games, movies,etc. But without comics where would Batman get awesome villains & storylines to implement in movies or videogames? To understand it even better we need to look towards characters like Gi Joe who were straight up created to sell toys but comic line was started to give them stories. Same with he-man. Infact new James Bond novels are still written by employing new writers. So Ironman movies not increasing sales of Ironman Comics doesn't really matter. They only need to maintain sales enough that it's still running. That's it. As for why obscure marvel Superheroes became successful? Well, that's because marvel developed itself as a brand. DC on the other hand continues to rely upon Batman & Superman. Despite that Aquaman hit 1 billion which even Wonder woman didn't achieve. Comic sales Means nothing here.
That commenter must not know who Mark Millar is. That guy can get a project green lite with gaged, blindfolded, with both hands tied behind his back. Or Robert Kirkland who proved that this approach works. The point isn’t to create a thing that billions of people care about to make a movie. The point is to prove that you can create something that people care about at all. If you can get a few thousand nerds on your side they will do all your marketing for you.
This made me smile. I have been trying to get my wife to realize that putting out the audiobooks, comic books, etc. before trying to just throw a movie out into the universe is the best way to go. We have a legacy of sorts to fall back on.
One corollary I would make is that if you make a comic, make a *comic.* Don't just take your unproduced screenplay and have someone illustrate it for you. These are different art forms, and while they share a LOT in common, they are not the same. It's not fun to read a comic that is clearly meant as a visual aid in someone's pitch for a movie or a Netflix show.
This is something that many people overlook, specially at Hollywod, since they think Comics are some sort of glorified pamphlet rather than a medium with it's own art form... However... Completely new stories can be made from the marriage between an Unproduced screenplay and a whole new dimension for it, just look at how Moebius and Jodorowski turned an adaptation of Dune into the Sci-fi Classic that is The Incal!
Back in the '80s then 90's Marvel titles were selling from 100,000 to 500.000 copies a month, anything that sold below 40,000 was canceled, today between the big two you'll be lucky if 6 sell over 100,000 the vast majority sell well below 25,000 due to the worst creative decisions within comic history and creators saying disgusting things to costumers, I would suggest that there are more than a 250,000 former Marvel fans from the '70s onwards who have stopped reading their titles due to their creative changes and have latched on to the early Marvel movies due to them being more like the original source material than currently published titles. However Kevin Feige's last few movies are beginning to follow the same path as the comics, resulting in the same dip in box office sales, just like the comics, he says that this is the new chosen direction, I'm hoping for his sake that he takes a look at the success of Spider-man "No Way Home" and course corrects sharply, regardless of the source format book/comics it's clear commonsense that too much deviation from a successful popular brand is a big no no, wherein lesser know properties will have more room for creative deviation "Blade" the US comic industry is in the toilet, compared to Manga sales that sell millions in the US, Japan and world wide, recovery is more than possible, just don't look to Marvel and DC to leade or for the next big IP.
This all sounds good but it is too optimistic. To make a comic book, you need to hire an artist or sometimes even a whole team of artists to work on it... that is after you've done adapting your screenplay to comicbook artist friendly format. And as far as writing books goes... after you've done adapting your 100 page skeleton of a story in a full fledged 300 page novel that's been proofread and everything... good luck trying to sell it at 20 bucks a pop when even established indie writers have to spend hundreds of dollars every month trying to sell their books at $0.99... or even to give them out for free!
This man knows nothing about the comic book industry or comic book readers. Comics readers follow CHARACTERS first and foremost. Most filmgoers are not likely to be comic book readers.
Unfortunately, this guest and the original poster you pulled from has zero idea what is happening in the comic industry right now and for the last 5-7 years. The reason marvel movie and comics are separate and don't have crossover is far worst than a canon issue. (And they don't have “movie canon comics”, that is not a thing) As Iron man in the movies was becoming big, in the comics he was dead, killed by Captain Marvel.(the current Tony Stark they kinda brought back is a clone) He was replaced by a young girl named Iron Heart. As Thor had a movie, he was replaced in the comics by female Thor (soon to be in the movie). As Captain America was becoming more popular, they turned him into a hydra agent. And he was always a Hydra agent, not brain washed or tricked, he was always a hydra agent (basically a nazi). So little johnny or Suzy goes to buy a comic about their favorite avenger in a comic and those comics don't exist. They have done the same thing by pushing Miles Morales as spider-man and making Peter a sidelined character. He is not with MJ anymore, lost his entire fortune (he was rich as he is stupid smart) and had to become a photographer again. Once again, not what is advertised in any way to the movies. The movie makers not wanting the canon all comes down to lazy movie makers. God forbid you like or want the canon part of your story. That is the entire reason you want the IP in the first place. The fans want the original vision on screen. Not the vision of a director/writer that never knew this IP existed until they got the job. Alita is a perfect example of being faithful to the original while still making a movie from a book with volumes of pages. No Alita fan was disappointed from Cameron's changes. And pointing to Guardians of the Galaxy as a way to have a successful movie as a D grade hero comics doesn't take into account you had years of MCU movies before it. That brings good will towards people seeing your nobody superhero movie. Also you had the Thanos storyline going that had people interested. You can see in the new phase, people are not interested in the heros as much. No one is talking how cool the Eternals were. And no one cares about Shang-shi. Even Black Widow kinda landed with a thud. Finally, (American) comics are not selling anyway. Those successful Star wars comics barely sell copies, and a successful marvel comic sells 30k issues monthly. In the 90, without the movie tie ends for character recognition, comics sold 150-200k copies monthly. The industry is the problem, the movies have nothing to do with it.
@@kael1981 I have to disagree. He was saying the lore of the comics is the primarily reason why it's made, to create a foundation, then base the movies off of that. It's how to generate the story, ideas, and character aspects. He just made it seem overly complicated by regurgitating the same point over and over with little nuance. Making a good movie is also about the trailer, if you can create a good trailer it increases the chances of it working out. Good marketing is essential. Him saying the comics isn't doing the best, and that there is no correlation doesn't feel right to me. I'd say that's because the comic industry is infuriated with the industry right now due to political motivations, not the industry being apathetic to its success or failure. I do concur with his point on luck, I do think it was dragged on, nothing is destined to work, one must work and pray to Chuck that people will care.
@@eobardthawn6903 maybe there was more to the interview, but from this part of the interview he was addressing the comment that there was no need to build up a fan base through the comics. He argues that creating a fan base helps the odds that a movie becomes successful. I don't think he believes only through comics can this fan base be created. He even talks about podcasts and other media. Again, I think his whole discussion was to address the quote that said you didn't need it at all. He is saying that it helps. I would say that he would agree that a good trailer would also help. That was why he made the football analogy where every little thing - comic books, podcasts, trailers - gets you closer to the end zone where you can try the hail mary pass.
@@eobardthawn6903 not sure what you mean about him saying comics are not doing the best. I think he was again replying to the quote which said that since there was no uptick in readership of the comics after the movies came out then it proves that comics and creating a fan base are not needed. He is all for creating a fan base with comics. I think he was trying to explain why there might not be an uptick in comic readership. His explanation was that because there was no connecting cannon between the comics and the movies, the moviegoers can not fe
Currently creating a Comic Book Series for an animated TV show I have wanted to create. The comic book will, one, give me a fully developed and tangible IP to showcase and two, hopefully build a fan base around it. 🤞
None. Actually I watched X-Men and Spiderman because a friend of mine was into them. Both movies didn't make me pickup the comic book version. I normally rent comic book movies to understand the fuss behind them.
@@Reanimator999 Comic books are a niche thing that most folks get when they're kids. So I do have to admit there is a nostalgia for me with some comic book movies.
I view it this way. The comics are now the minor leagues and are affiliates of a major league team. The minors are not intended to make a profit. They are intended to develop new talent for the majors.. So in the comics minor league Miles Morales Spiderman was created in 2011 and was a hit. He got called up to the Major leagues in 2018 for movies and was a big hit their and is now a franchise.. But it all started in the minor leagues.. so Marvel Comics is owned by Disney and DC by WB.. Disney and WB dont need their comics to pay the Bill's. They are intended to develop new ideas to one day turn into TV shows and movies and sell merchandise
an excellent documentary is out right now called MY COMIC SHOP COUNTRY, everyone should check it out. The movies do NOTHING for the comic books, comic book shop owners are struggling...I even asked the owner of my LCS (who coincidentally is in the movie) and I asked him this very question "are the movies/TV shows increasing the sales of the books?" and he stated no. BUT... for us old comic heads when a major character pops up in a movie or TV show, that back issue price will skyrocket, when the white vision showed up in WANDAVISION the value on WCA#45 shot thru the roof...I went to my comic site and very fine to near mint is selling for $95.
As hardcore comic books and graphic novels fan I say that MCU are not comic movies. Visually Dune looks more like a comic book movie, more epic and heroic. It is all about angles, framing of the shot and dialogs. In MCU movies superheroes talk like a normal persons and are presented as simple as characters from Friends (lame TV comedy). And there is to much 'becoming a hero' cliche. 300 was done right by Zack Snyder. Sin City was done by Roberto Rodriguez.
Not interested and confusing. To be specific, I just don't find ever-increasing superhero comic book movies all that relatable to me. I prefer movies based from comic book to be subtle and them not screaming "comic book!" with flamboyant costumes and FX.
I like many, and capes/superhero is def an established genre now, but i really do think the visionary directors tell much better stories with them than others. Case in point i really liked Mississippi Grind by Boden & Fleck. Fantastic story telling. Later they were offered an mcu movie, Captain Marvel, and it clearly wasn’t “their” film, it was a sort of studio “made by committee” movie. Seemed like the story was already pre-made from the factory.
I dip in and out of them... I adored Nolan's Batman films, The Joker, Spiderman Into the Spider-verse but I chose not to watch all of the MCU films nor all of the DCU films. It depends on my mood and if I'm interested in a character they're pushing.
For a while I’ve thought it was interesting that comics kept a niche as a medium that could more easily show bigger, more fantastical stories then movies could, but not everyone accepted the medium. But when movies caught up, all of a sudden everyone could enjoy stories like that so they really blew up.
I bought a nice trade of Scarlet Witch and Vision collected, that WandaVision did take elements from. Both good experiences And i did get a Taskmaster book but that was def not because of Black Widow’s version of the character. That movie did all the wrong things imo
Disney were dumb enough with the movies to alienate both the "extended universe" fans, and the SJW weebs by not satisfying either camp. Lucas on the other hand made the Clone Wars cartoon by cartoon network canon from the start. The TV people seem to have taken that to heart, in that they are making something new, as opposed to trying to rehash the old movies for anew audience.
You do realize they're saying that the "comic books" themselves don't help the sales of the comic book movies right? The comic book movies will do well regardless of the comic books. The movies don't really need the comics.
The comics fanbase is essential in creating the initial buzz, I am almost certain. The fanbase willl be able to translate and communicate the mythos and the exciting possibilities far more effectively and efficiently than any marketing campaign. They can also communicate, with the same effectiveness, if the companies are messing it up. IOW, they are your best friends and your worst enemies - because ordinary folks, despite your attempts to denigrate the fanbase, will listen to those who know more about the IP and has consumed the same for years. The good news is that your typical fanbase is most easy to satisfy - they are far more excited about the project than anyone else. Unless, of course, you go into the IP without knowing anything about it and proceed to make foundational and out-of-cannon and nonsensical changes. Or if you go into it with a different agenda in mind other than creating a good film.
Agreed! Creating, maintaining, and sustaining allows you to develop the characters & universe. It helps determine what works in the story and what doesn’t. You also have to attend comic cons to pitch and sell your IP. It’s a lot of work but the goal is to generate a fan base. THEN there’s the artists - grab artists (and pay them well) that already have a built-in fan base. We’ve done this with SPIRALMIND
The Single most important reason the Marvel comics haven't benefited from the movies is because the comics have WAY TOO MANY DIFFERENT AND UNCONNECTED STORIES. So much so that you don't know where to start. Too many retcons. It's a mess. The movies take all that and make something out of all that mess. So the movies benefit. In contrast, zack Snyders watchmen benefited the comic book sales of watchmen Alot, because it wasn't too many writers and retcons and wasn't a mess. Even though the movie wasn't too well received. Same with the Harry Potter series. Lesson here is, the comic book has to have one single writer, not a dumping ground for writers. Only then can it benefit.
This is interesting. I have a story I want to get out for some time. Would normally go straight for a novel, but after watching more animated/anime shows recently (e.g My Hero Academia), I been contemplating whether I should adapt my story into a screenplay instead. Was thinking about doing both just incase something comes up.
The reason why the comics haven't benefited from the MCU fans is because they have become woke trash, there is a reason why the top 20 most sold comics in America today are japanese Manga. People want to escape into a fantasy not be bogged down in garbage. The early MCU movies seemed to get this as well.
Even though Spider-Man NWH is raking it in, I couldn't stop thinking about Sony buying Valiant and making Bloodshot... I guess at one time Sony was scared they might loose the Marvel deal and wanted a backup plan?
Not that the comics industry do it wrong. The problem is the company doesn't let old characters go. Look at manga in Japan. New characters new worlds are coming all the time. US comics stuck with batman spiderman for way too long. It's the main reason why it cannot grow. Pre awareness matters. Sales matters. Sales come up, value art come down.
this entire argument falls apart when you consider the Anime/Manga growth. when japan releases an Anime they usually release it as a teaser to the manga. because even if the anime isn't successful, people who became fans of that series would migrate toward the manga to finish the story. if the anime became popular, then the fans would still go to manga to get the artist's original vision but at the same time, because of the popularity, they'll keep making the anime due to the demand. but one thing they do apart from Hollywood is that they end the damn story base mangas/animes. not drag their dead corpse to make a quick buck. they end the story and move on to a new series. because they let the artist make arts and market best of that arts. not the Hollywood method of letting activists make CONTENT to make money. because of people like these is why we don't get new IPs to love. because like he said, "it's harder to release to no fans than release to 10000 fans" because it's safe to keep remaking something over and over to an established fan base. and they will keep doing it until the fan base gets tired of mindless content and leave the fan base. thats' what happened to comics and is happening to the franchises like star wars, terminator, predator, and CBM movies.
I wonder if anyone would want to see a limited series on Vampire Hunter D as I'd like to read the books for that series and write adaptations after getting permission from the author 🤔😅
Do you work for a mainstream media company? If so please forget you ever had this idea. Last thing us fans want is some Woke Cult cranking out a clusterfuck of a bastardization. Japanese entertainment is king because it doesnt inject ANY of our stupid western social issues into its stories. It is purely about characters, plot, etc.
The premise fails because nobody reads comic books anymore. Bestselling comic books move about 100k units, and that’s to the stores, not the end customer. An extra 100k movie tickets is chicken feed. Nobody in their right mind thinks that comic books can increase movie ticket sales.
Because Hollywood today is putting politics over art and pandering and preaching and condescending to their audience, even sometimes openly showing contempt for their audience.
Hollywood today is about propping up the elites...the idea that you can be born with nothing and work hard to ge5 what you want has been replaced by the idea that you can only get power by who you are born to. Neofeudalism myths have replaced the American dream myths.
Tbh, I think movies do more harm then good. Not saying the MCU is all to blame but not everything is “comic accurate” Exactly, make the comic/ graphic novel and let the audience grow on its own, don’t shove it down peoples throats and please don’t go with “current agenda” I love these videos, they give me hope that there are people who know what’s up and basically say, don’t go with the current agenda, do your own stuff!
Bullshit, for marvel you can clearly see the difference between woke movie and non woke movie box office, people bring captain marvel but she is one of the most hated character and not because of the comics, she only had an audience because of endgame coming after her
The canon thing blows my mind. Even the businessmen who make the movies should be able to comprehend the process. I mean, if I walk out of the matrix, I want to go buy the soundtrack. Everyone understands this. But if I only vaguely know who Iron Man is, and I see the movie, I then go to the comic store. But I don't see a comic with Robert Downy Jr looking/acting Iron Man. He acts totally different, and is on issue 8000. And, comic fans also contributed to this. I remember walking into a comic book store after the first phase and being treated like I walked into hot topic and started asking about Ariana Grande merch. The newcomers weren't 'real' fans. Ironically the comic industry is dying, and i think of the millions of potential newcomers who could have become 'real' fans.
He is wrong. The movies would have boosted sales IF the comics people were attempting to buy had the characters in them. But since all new, all different marvel all the mcu mainstays are not in them. Phase four and five will see the decline of the mcu.
Comic book readers (and I'm one of them) make up 00.01% of the movie going audience. Guardians of the Galaxy, The Suicide Squad (both by James Gunn) had almost nothing to do with the source material. He could have adapted any D-list characters and made them work. Conversely, a D-list director like Zack Snyder can adapt Watchmen by Alan Moore, and turn out of a half-decent film, simply by sticking to the source material.
i honestly am super grateful for all the 'wokeness' in modern movies. it detaches me from caring about any of the shait they are trying to spout, i have some franchises that i used to love that i now hate with a passion -> and i won't spend a single dime on them on any 'merch' or anything else. SAVING MONEIS right there!!!! 👍👍🌐🌐🤡🤡
Okay, there's a *HUGE* factor missing from this conversation. It's not that the comics were different than the movies that made them fail. It's because the people who had taken over both Marvel and DC were creating objectively terrible comics and attacking the fans for rejecting them. Comics were a reasonably sustainable business with the fanbase before the movies but bad creative decisions and poor fan relations drove away the built-in customers they had before and offered nothing but trash products to potential new readers. Regarding Star Wars, sales for those comics collapsed around the time of the Disney trilogy, too because it threw out everything that the fanbase had grown to love, replaced it with an inferior product, and then attacked them for rejecting it. *NO ONE* be it fans or casual ticket buyers, going to see a Star Wars movie wants to go digging for more information in other mediums because the story is incomplete. If they love a story they may want to consume new adventures in other mediums that they also enjoy but if they have to spend money to piece it together then you're just giving your audience homework to do. That's so dumb that fact that people try to do it after years of it never working is inexplicable. Every time I'm in a production meeting where someone starts talking about trans-media, I want to start giving Stone Cold stunners.
There's nothing wrong with any of what you wrote.
Those are the observations of most other long-time comic books including myself, too.
The problem is the people in charge of the movie studios and comic book companies are THE WRONG PEOPLE to be running those companies. Also, they're so insulated and arrogant they're not listening to reasonable people. This is why both the comic book companies and the superhero movies are failing now. With the exception of the latest Spider-Man film, the superhero films this year have objectively failed.
There's more like the ESG mandate set in by the Obama administration (which is going to extend the time these companies Eff up existing characters) but fundamentally the people running the legacy companies don't care as long as the money is coming in. The problem is they are not the type of people who can figure out what is going. They don't "get" the creative side of things and they don't understand the importance of company/customer relations. They've been arrogant -- especially at Disney and Marvel -- to believe the vast majority of us will just automatically hand over money and not care about the quality of the entertainment. They're clueless if they think they can continue to put out shovelware and the public will just continue to eat it up. Most of us who value are entertainment dollars have already moved on from mainstream comics and the MCU.
@@AvengerII You'd like my video about the IATSE strike that's still looming. I discuss a lot of these factors with my guest.
if the story isn't complete on its own, if it can't stand alone, it's not trans media done properly. That's the point you are missing. Just because people are not able to do it doesn't mean it's bad.
Not that the company do it wrong. The problem is the company doesn't let old characters go. Look at manga in Japan. New characters new worlds are coming all the time. US comics stuck with batman spiderman for way too long. It's the main reason why it cannot grow. Pre awareness matters. Sales matters. Sales come up, value art come down.
Hollywood, and this guy included, gets this all wrong every time... When you have an existing IP and you make a movie about it, what you've inherited is not a fanbase, it's a critics-base. You've inherited a group of people who feel like they own these characters and stories, and they will ruin you if you choose to fuck it up... Notice how I said CHOOSE... Like choosing to "reimagine" characters and stories... You will lose, and rightly so. What was done to Luke Skywalker was a travesty...
This is Marvel Cinematic Universe in a nutshell.
I have to respectfully disagree with some points in that opening quote.
About the movies not helping sell Marvel comics: Have you read any of the comic books since the MCU came out? They stink. They keep coming up with bad story arcs for existing/established characters, and create new characters that are terrible, and that's why the comics don't sell anymore. People will buy a comic book because of the movie, but they'll stop buying it when they realize that the comics is not as good as the movie. Manga sells millions because they are good, whether or not they have a movie tie-in.
About comics not helping movie sales: people watched Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Wonder Woman, etc., primarily because they were in the comics. You may not be a comic fan, you may not have read Superman, but you know who he is. You know who Batman is, who Spiderman is. And that's why you watched their movies.
And about making a movie and a comic book at the same time: why would I do that?
Just my two cents.
The biggest difference between Marvel and Star Wars is marvel still used the baseline backgrounds/traits of their characters given to them in the comics, they still called back to them when needed idea, also multiverses were already a thing in comics long before the MCU came out.
Star Wars threw everything out (we are talking about 40+ years of in universe story/character development, and that’s just the after Return of the Jedi content) and started with a clean slate, they didn’t use anything that had been already established to create the sequels, so that in itself created some resentment from the get go.
While most fans did expect some changes, and some things reworked because EU wasn’t 100% perfect, we weren’t expecting the mess that we got - a unplanned storyline, that doesn’t even work as a proper follow on to the original trilogy, characters that came off as poor man versions of some of the EU characters, the main original characters all done dirty, the list goes on...
Add in the fact that Kathy the audacity to whine about having no source material to work with in that Rolling Stone interview, GTFO you had the material sweetheart you CHOSE not to actually use it.
I love reading the comments, as much as watching the videos, your fan base is so diverse. Keep up the good work...
I feel like he is focusing on something that's not even that relevant to begin with. "Don't make a movie and a comic book at the same time".... Trust me, everybody knows.
This video hits home. I'm in the process of taking a sci-fi screen play I wrote in 2002 and developing it into a comic book series. I have sat on it for so long... but now I'm working on developing it into a different platform.
That sounds really cool. I wish you the best of luck.
@@JK-dv3qe The Sith Lord controls both sides and cares not for which you follow...as long as you follow. Depolarize yourself young Padawan.
Both comics and film are incredibly hard to be successful with BUT production costs on a comic book is much much easier to manage as well as the creation
Of a finished product. Good luck man.
There is very little synergy from mcu movies and current era comics. The films themselves will borrow from past events (which they should) and classic trades will get bought.
But the biggest problem of modern comics is the exorbitant costs. $4-5+ an issue for 22 pages of art & story
A lot of times the people in charge of comics eliminated the characters who were popular in the MCU. They made every wrong decision in comics in the last five years.
Most of these questions can be quite easily answered by anyone who actually reads comics & understands the Comic business.
The actual sales of Ironman comics is irrelevant to Disney. Marvel & DC's owners only want them to sell comics to keep characters alive in pop-culture & give them new stories so they could be adapted into other mediums.
Batman comics sells a lot but where do you think real money comes from? Merchandising. Batman toys, games, movies,etc. But without comics where would Batman get awesome villains & storylines to implement in movies or videogames?
To understand it even better we need to look towards characters like Gi Joe who were straight up created to sell toys but comic line was started to give them stories. Same with he-man. Infact new James Bond novels are still written by employing new writers.
So Ironman movies not increasing sales of Ironman Comics doesn't really matter. They only need to maintain sales enough that it's still running. That's it.
As for why obscure marvel Superheroes became successful? Well, that's because marvel developed itself as a brand.
DC on the other hand continues to rely upon Batman & Superman. Despite that Aquaman hit 1 billion which even Wonder woman didn't achieve. Comic sales Means nothing here.
That commenter must not know who Mark Millar is. That guy can get a project green lite with gaged, blindfolded, with both hands tied behind his back. Or Robert Kirkland who proved that this approach works.
The point isn’t to create a thing that billions of people care about to make a movie. The point is to prove that you can create something that people care about at all. If you can get a few thousand nerds on your side they will do all your marketing for you.
Well said!
This made me smile. I have been trying to get my wife to realize that putting out the audiobooks, comic books, etc. before trying to just throw a movie out into the universe is the best way to go. We have a legacy of sorts to fall back on.
One corollary I would make is that if you make a comic, make a *comic.* Don't just take your unproduced screenplay and have someone illustrate it for you. These are different art forms, and while they share a LOT in common, they are not the same. It's not fun to read a comic that is clearly meant as a visual aid in someone's pitch for a movie or a Netflix show.
This is something that many people overlook, specially at Hollywod, since they think Comics are some sort of glorified pamphlet rather than a medium with it's own art form...
However...
Completely new stories can be made from the marriage between an Unproduced screenplay and a whole new dimension for it, just look at how Moebius and Jodorowski turned an adaptation of Dune into the Sci-fi Classic that is The Incal!
Back in the '80s then 90's Marvel titles were selling from 100,000 to 500.000 copies a month, anything that sold below 40,000 was canceled, today between the big two you'll be lucky if 6 sell over 100,000 the vast majority sell well below 25,000 due to the worst creative decisions within comic history and creators saying disgusting things to costumers, I would suggest that there are more than a 250,000 former Marvel fans from the '70s onwards who have stopped reading their titles due to their creative changes and have latched on to the early Marvel movies due to them being more like the original source material than currently published titles. However Kevin Feige's last few movies are beginning to follow the same path as the comics, resulting in the same dip in box office sales, just like the comics, he says that this is the new chosen direction, I'm hoping for his sake that he takes a look at the success of Spider-man "No Way Home" and course corrects sharply, regardless of the source format book/comics it's clear commonsense that too much deviation from a successful popular brand is a big no no, wherein lesser know properties will have more room for creative deviation "Blade" the US comic industry is in the toilet, compared to Manga sales that sell millions in the US, Japan and world wide, recovery is more than possible, just don't look to Marvel and DC to leade or for the next big IP.
This all sounds good but it is too optimistic. To make a comic book, you need to hire an artist or sometimes even a whole team of artists to work on it... that is after you've done adapting your screenplay to comicbook artist friendly format. And as far as writing books goes... after you've done adapting your 100 page skeleton of a story in a full fledged 300 page novel that's been proofread and everything... good luck trying to sell it at 20 bucks a pop when even established indie writers have to spend hundreds of dollars every month trying to sell their books at $0.99... or even to give them out for free!
he's not talking about adaptation but abaout expanding the story. Basically it's another story when you swap media
This man knows nothing about the comic book industry or comic book readers. Comics readers follow CHARACTERS first and foremost. Most filmgoers are not likely to be comic book readers.
Unfortunately, this guest and the original poster you pulled from has zero idea what is happening in the comic industry right now and for the last 5-7 years. The reason marvel movie and comics are separate and don't have crossover is far worst than a canon issue. (And they don't have “movie canon comics”, that is not a thing) As Iron man in the movies was becoming big, in the comics he was dead, killed by Captain Marvel.(the current Tony Stark they kinda brought back is a clone) He was replaced by a young girl named Iron Heart. As Thor had a movie, he was replaced in the comics by female Thor (soon to be in the movie). As Captain America was becoming more popular, they turned him into a hydra agent. And he was always a Hydra agent, not brain washed or tricked, he was always a hydra agent (basically a nazi). So little johnny or Suzy goes to buy a comic about their favorite avenger in a comic and those comics don't exist. They have done the same thing by pushing Miles Morales as spider-man and making Peter a sidelined character. He is not with MJ anymore, lost his entire fortune (he was rich as he is stupid smart) and had to become a photographer again. Once again, not what is advertised in any way to the movies.
The movie makers not wanting the canon all comes down to lazy movie makers. God forbid you like or want the canon part of your story. That is the entire reason you want the IP in the first place. The fans want the original vision on screen. Not the vision of a director/writer that never knew this IP existed until they got the job. Alita is a perfect example of being faithful to the original while still making a movie from a book with volumes of pages. No Alita fan was disappointed from Cameron's changes.
And pointing to Guardians of the Galaxy as a way to have a successful movie as a D grade hero comics doesn't take into account you had years of MCU movies before it. That brings good will towards people seeing your nobody superhero movie. Also you had the Thanos storyline going that had people interested. You can see in the new phase, people are not interested in the heros as much. No one is talking how cool the Eternals were. And no one cares about Shang-shi. Even Black Widow kinda landed with a thud.
Finally, (American) comics are not selling anyway. Those successful Star wars comics barely sell copies, and a successful marvel comic sells 30k issues monthly. In the 90, without the movie tie ends for character recognition, comics sold 150-200k copies monthly. The industry is the problem, the movies have nothing to do with it.
What you said is basically what the commentator was saying.
@@kael1981 I have to disagree. He was saying the lore of the comics is the primarily reason why it's made, to create a foundation, then base the movies off of that. It's how to generate the story, ideas, and character aspects. He just made it seem overly complicated by regurgitating the same point over and over with little nuance.
Making a good movie is also about the trailer, if you can create a good trailer it increases the chances of it working out. Good marketing is essential.
Him saying the comics isn't doing the best, and that there is no correlation doesn't feel right to me. I'd say that's because the comic industry is infuriated with the industry right now due to political motivations, not the industry being apathetic to its success or failure.
I do concur with his point on luck, I do think it was dragged on, nothing is destined to work, one must work and pray to Chuck that people will care.
@@eobardthawn6903 maybe there was more to the interview, but from this part of the interview he was addressing the comment that there was no need to build up a fan base through the comics. He argues that creating a fan base helps the odds that a movie becomes successful. I don't think he believes only through comics can this fan base be created. He even talks about podcasts and other media. Again, I think his whole discussion was to address the quote that said you didn't need it at all. He is saying that it helps. I would say that he would agree that a good trailer would also help. That was why he made the football analogy where every little thing - comic books, podcasts, trailers - gets you closer to the end zone where you can try the hail mary pass.
@@eobardthawn6903 not sure what you mean about him saying comics are not doing the best. I think he was again replying to the quote which said that since there was no uptick in readership of the comics after the movies came out then it proves that comics and creating a fan base are not needed. He is all for creating a fan base with comics. I think he was trying to explain why there might not be an uptick in comic readership. His explanation was that because there was no connecting cannon between the comics and the movies, the moviegoers can not fe
Feel connected to the comics since they are so different, which was exactly what you said about the comics and movies being different.
Currently creating a Comic Book Series for an animated TV show I have wanted to create. The comic book will, one, give me a fully developed and tangible IP to showcase and two, hopefully build a fan base around it. 🤞
What movies have you seen because you love the comic book?
Spider-man, Batman, Original Mirage Studio's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Judge Dredd, I could go on and on....
None. Actually I watched X-Men and Spiderman because a friend of mine was into them. Both movies didn't make me pickup the comic book version. I normally rent comic book movies to understand the fuss behind them.
Many, and most were disappointments
Xmen. I put myself through every Xmen movie made even though they rarely ever got close to the books lore.
@@Reanimator999 Comic books are a niche thing that most folks get when they're kids. So I do have to admit there is a nostalgia for me with some comic book movies.
I view it this way. The comics are now the minor leagues and are affiliates of a major league team.
The minors are not intended to make a profit. They are intended to develop new talent for the majors..
So in the comics minor league Miles Morales Spiderman was created in 2011 and was a hit. He got called up to the Major leagues in 2018 for movies and was a big hit their and is now a franchise..
But it all started in the minor leagues.. so Marvel Comics is owned by Disney and DC by WB..
Disney and WB dont need their comics to pay the Bill's. They are intended to develop new ideas to one day turn into TV shows and movies and sell merchandise
Great insight! I really dig how you made the analogy of talent with IP
Search ''Daniel Kibblesmith, New Warriors''. That's modern comics.
an excellent documentary is out right now called MY COMIC SHOP COUNTRY, everyone should check it out. The movies do NOTHING for the comic books, comic book shop owners are struggling...I even asked the owner of my LCS (who coincidentally is in the movie) and I asked him this very question "are the movies/TV shows increasing the sales of the books?" and he stated no.
BUT...
for us old comic heads when a major character pops up in a movie or TV show, that back issue price will skyrocket, when the white vision showed up in WANDAVISION the value on WCA#45 shot thru the roof...I went to my comic site and very fine to near mint is selling for $95.
I can blow his argument out of the water with two words. Star Wars
As hardcore comic books and graphic novels fan I say that MCU are not comic movies. Visually Dune looks more like a comic book movie, more epic and heroic. It is all about angles, framing of the shot and dialogs. In MCU movies superheroes talk like a normal persons and are presented as simple as characters from Friends (lame TV comedy). And there is to much 'becoming a hero' cliche. 300 was done right by Zack Snyder. Sin City was done by Roberto Rodriguez.
How do you feel about comic book movies?
Not interested and confusing. To be specific, I just don't find ever-increasing superhero comic book movies all that relatable to me. I prefer movies based from comic book to be subtle and them not screaming "comic book!" with flamboyant costumes and FX.
I like many, and capes/superhero is def an established genre now, but i really do think the visionary directors tell much better stories with them than others. Case in point i really liked Mississippi Grind by Boden & Fleck. Fantastic story telling. Later they were offered an mcu movie, Captain Marvel, and it clearly wasn’t “their” film, it was a sort of studio “made by committee” movie. Seemed like the story was already pre-made from the factory.
I dip in and out of them... I adored Nolan's Batman films, The Joker, Spiderman Into the Spider-verse but I chose not to watch all of the MCU films nor all of the DCU films. It depends on my mood and if I'm interested in a character they're pushing.
For a while I’ve thought it was interesting that comics kept a niche as a medium that could more easily show bigger, more fantastical stories then movies could, but not everyone accepted the medium. But when movies caught up, all of a sudden everyone could enjoy stories like that so they really blew up.
What comic books have you bought because of how much you enjoyed the movie?
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
I bought a nice trade of Scarlet Witch and Vision collected, that WandaVision did take elements from. Both good experiences
And i did get a Taskmaster book but that was def not because of Black Widow’s version of the character. That movie did all the wrong things imo
Disney were dumb enough with the movies to alienate both the "extended universe" fans, and the SJW weebs by not satisfying either camp.
Lucas on the other hand made the Clone Wars cartoon by cartoon network canon from the start. The TV people seem to have taken that to heart, in that they are making something new, as opposed to trying to rehash the old movies for anew audience.
But they do tho. Even so-called flops in the comic book movie world make hundreds of millions of dollars globally
ok then have a go 👍👍
You do realize they're saying that the "comic books" themselves don't help the sales of the comic book movies right? The comic book movies will do well regardless of the comic books. The movies don't really need the comics.
@@brandenwalton2914 well, i just opt out altogether and just hate the whole fekking franchise -> easier, and CHEAPER!
The comics fanbase is essential in creating the initial buzz, I am almost certain. The fanbase willl be able to translate and communicate the mythos and the exciting possibilities far more effectively and efficiently than any marketing campaign. They can also communicate, with the same effectiveness, if the companies are messing it up. IOW, they are your best friends and your worst enemies - because ordinary folks, despite your attempts to denigrate the fanbase, will listen to those who know more about the IP and has consumed the same for years. The good news is that your typical fanbase is most easy to satisfy - they are far more excited about the project than anyone else. Unless, of course, you go into the IP without knowing anything about it and proceed to make foundational and out-of-cannon and nonsensical changes. Or if you go into it with a different agenda in mind other than creating a good film.
Agreed! Creating, maintaining, and sustaining allows you to develop the characters & universe. It helps determine what works in the story and what doesn’t. You also have to attend comic cons to pitch and sell your IP. It’s a lot of work but the goal is to generate a fan base. THEN there’s the artists - grab artists (and pay them well) that already have a built-in fan base. We’ve done this with SPIRALMIND
The Single most important reason the Marvel comics haven't benefited from the movies is because the comics have WAY TOO MANY DIFFERENT AND UNCONNECTED STORIES. So much so that you don't know where to start. Too many retcons. It's a mess. The movies take all that and make something out of all that mess. So the movies benefit.
In contrast, zack Snyders watchmen benefited the comic book sales of watchmen Alot, because it wasn't too many writers and retcons and wasn't a mess. Even though the movie wasn't too well received. Same with the Harry Potter series.
Lesson here is, the comic book has to have one single writer, not a dumping ground for writers. Only then can it benefit.
This is interesting. I have a story I want to get out for some time. Would normally go straight for a novel, but after watching more animated/anime shows recently (e.g My Hero Academia), I been contemplating whether I should adapt my story into a screenplay instead. Was thinking about doing both just incase something comes up.
The reason why the comics haven't benefited from the MCU fans is because they have become woke trash, there is a reason why the top 20 most sold comics in America today are japanese Manga. People want to escape into a fantasy not be bogged down in garbage. The early MCU movies seemed to get this as well.
“When you’re talking you’re not listening”.
Holy shit, take a breath. We can’t handle your endless “expertise” so quickly.
Even though Spider-Man NWH is raking it in, I couldn't stop thinking about Sony buying Valiant and making Bloodshot... I guess at one time Sony was scared they might loose the Marvel deal and wanted a backup plan?
how do you do a podcast for your universus
I did not know that a Hail Mary was an American football thing.
Not that the comics industry do it wrong. The problem is the company doesn't let old characters go. Look at manga in Japan. New characters new worlds are coming all the time. US comics stuck with batman spiderman for way too long. It's the main reason why it cannot grow. Pre awareness matters. Sales matters. Sales come up, value art come down.
this entire argument falls apart when you consider the Anime/Manga growth. when japan releases an Anime they usually release it as a teaser to the manga. because even if the anime isn't successful, people who became fans of that series would migrate toward the manga to finish the story. if the anime became popular, then the fans would still go to manga to get the artist's original vision but at the same time, because of the popularity, they'll keep making the anime due to the demand.
but one thing they do apart from Hollywood is that they end the damn story base mangas/animes. not drag their dead corpse to make a quick buck. they end the story and move on to a new series. because they let the artist make arts and market best of that arts. not the Hollywood method of letting activists make CONTENT to make money.
because of people like these is why we don't get new IPs to love. because like he said, "it's harder to release to no fans than release to 10000 fans" because it's safe to keep remaking something over and over to an established fan base. and they will keep doing it until the fan base gets tired of mindless content and leave the fan base. thats' what happened to comics and is happening to the franchises like star wars, terminator, predator, and CBM movies.
I wonder if anyone would want to see a limited series on Vampire Hunter D as I'd like to read the books for that series and write adaptations after getting permission from the author 🤔😅
Do you work for a mainstream media company? If so please forget you ever had this idea. Last thing us fans want is some Woke Cult cranking out a clusterfuck of a bastardization. Japanese entertainment is king because it doesnt inject ANY of our stupid western social issues into its stories. It is purely about characters, plot, etc.
The premise fails because nobody reads comic books anymore. Bestselling comic books move about 100k units, and that’s to the stores, not the end customer. An extra 100k movie tickets is chicken feed. Nobody in their right mind thinks that comic books can increase movie ticket sales.
Makes sports comparisons. Audience doesn't compute
You guys are great 👍 awesome interviews
Because Hollywood today is putting politics over art and pandering and preaching and condescending to their audience, even sometimes openly showing contempt for their audience.
Yeah they have been adopted as a soft military recruitment tool.
Hollywood today is about propping up the elites...the idea that you can be born with nothing and work hard to ge5 what you want has been replaced by the idea that you can only get power by who you are born to. Neofeudalism myths have replaced the American dream myths.
They say they are left wing, but despise regular people.
I wanna be interviewed by you guys. See you in a few years🧛🏻♀️
I love that, claim it, I'll be waiting in the green room, to go on after you!!!! See you there
Very very practical & informative approach 👌👌👌👌
I suspect this gentleman may have ate a little mushroom on the way to the interview
Tbh, I think movies do more harm then good. Not saying the MCU is all to blame but not everything is “comic accurate”
Exactly, make the comic/ graphic novel and let the audience grow on its own, don’t shove it down peoples throats and please don’t go with “current agenda”
I love these videos, they give me hope that there are people who know what’s up and basically say, don’t go with the current agenda, do your own stuff!
He says the truth. :^)
The walking dead was a comic book movie.
Bullshit, for marvel you can clearly see the difference between woke movie and non woke movie box office, people bring captain marvel but she is one of the most hated character and not because of the comics, she only had an audience because of endgame coming after her
The canon thing blows my mind. Even the businessmen who make the movies should be able to comprehend the process. I mean, if I walk out of the matrix, I want to go buy the soundtrack. Everyone understands this. But if I only vaguely know who Iron Man is, and I see the movie, I then go to the comic store. But I don't see a comic with Robert Downy Jr looking/acting Iron Man. He acts totally different, and is on issue 8000. And, comic fans also contributed to this. I remember walking into a comic book store after the first phase and being treated like I walked into hot topic and started asking about Ariana Grande merch. The newcomers weren't 'real' fans. Ironically the comic industry is dying, and i think of the millions of potential newcomers who could have become 'real' fans.
He is wrong. The movies would have boosted sales IF the comics people were attempting to buy had the characters in them. But since all new, all different marvel all the mcu mainstays are not in them. Phase four and five will see the decline of the mcu.
Comic book readers (and I'm one of them) make up 00.01% of the movie going audience. Guardians of the Galaxy, The Suicide Squad (both by James Gunn) had almost nothing to do with the source material. He could have adapted any D-list characters and made them work.
Conversely, a D-list director like Zack Snyder can adapt Watchmen by Alan Moore, and turn out of a half-decent film, simply by sticking to the source material.
This guy never heard of manga 😂
This is seriously depressing. 😂
...the wokes, the prgressivism, the political correctness have destroyed StarWars, JamesBond, Matrix and Marvel.
This dude is super woke
i honestly am super grateful for all the 'wokeness' in modern movies. it detaches me from caring about any of the shait they are trying to spout, i have some franchises that i used to love that i now hate with a passion -> and i won't spend a single dime on them on any 'merch' or anything else. SAVING MONEIS right there!!!! 👍👍🌐🌐🤡🤡
@@JK-dv3qe i agree, some movie makers , actors, directors, etc.... Went so far woke, is just funny sometimes to see it...
lol matrix was always "woke" tf you talking about
@@dapiridoob i agree... The new one didn't seem like super woke or the new james bond...