Was Gender Fluidity ‘Mainstream’ in Pre-Colonial India?
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- Опубликовано: 17 ноя 2024
- How did notions of gender and sexuality change in colonial India? Dr. Madhavi Menon, Professor of English at Ashoka University, explains our pre-colonial history of ‘indifference to difference.’
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Featuring: Dr. Madhavi Menon
Edited by: Anahita Sachdev
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'Indifference to difference.' - a philosophy we really need to go back to today.
Old Indian society was patriarchic. Why won't they indulge every fantasy of a man, even if it is to become 'woman'? As long as they stayed away from other men's 'property' i mean women, ancient Indian men had no problem with these men. Men in power will protect their rights even at the cost of women. Women are no longer 'property' of hetero men, so they have no interest in protecting women from other men who claim there are no difference between women and a man in a dress who should be able to access girls' toilets, sports, prison, bra-fitting room etc. etc. This is what is happening in the West. That women can't protest against them is because these men hold the power there.
Man, the British really messed us up in all angles
SWIFTIE
@@tuhimerameraa1 me too
Seriously though 😂😁😭
True that
@Halo did u know that pre british era, women didn't were anything to cover the top. They were equal to men in terms of dressing. The Victorian culture forced Indian women to wear blouses in the name of "modesty".
Secondly the missionaries in the name of uplifting the underprivileged, they promoted racism and religious conversion and undermining of native culture. These were tricks to ease their divide and rule policy. See, my point is women and the underprivileged could have gotten their rights even without the British to have ruled us. People weren't going to remain ignorant.
These topics need to be discussed in our society.
Old Indian society was patriarchic. Why won't they indulge every fantasy of a man, even if it is to become 'woman'? As long as they stayed away from other men's 'property' i mean women, ancient Indian men had no problem with these men. Men in power will protect their rights even at the cost of women. Women are no longer 'property' of hetero men, so they have no interest in protecting women from other men who claim there are no difference between women and a man in a dress who should be able to access girls' toilets, sports, prison, bra-fitting room etc. etc. This is what is happening in the West. That women can't protest against them is because these men hold the power there.
In Canada some Sikh beauticians were dragged to court for refusing to touch and wax a man's p enis because he claimed he was a woman and they were discriminating against 't ra ns women'! This is the logical end point to this movement.
Auntiyon ko chugli karne se fursat mile toh ye topic par baat karein.
@@swaroopbag9279 I have never seen such a true comment
@@swaroopbag9279 they are busy discussing about what others are wearing who is fair who is dark who did not get married yet who did not give birth yet 😑
such an underrated channel
In Canada some Sikh beauticians were dragged to court for refusing to touch and wax a man's p enis because he claimed he was a woman and they were discriminating against 't ra ns women'! This is the logical end point to this movement.
This video definitely needs to be longer! Great work.
Old Indian society was patriarchic. Why won't they indulge every fantasy of a man, even if it is to become 'woman'? As long as they stayed away from other men's 'property' i mean women, ancient Indian men had no problem with these men. Men in power will protect their rights even at the cost of women. Women are no longer 'property' of hetero men, so they have no interest in protecting women from other men who claim there are no difference between women and a man in a dress who should be able to access girls' toilets, sports, prison, bra-fitting room etc. etc. This is what is happening in the West. That women can't protest against them is because these men hold the power there.
In Canada some Sikh beauticians were dragged to court for refusing to touch and wax a man's p enis because he claimed he was a woman and they were discriminating against 't ra ns women'! This is the logical end point to this movement.
@@priyakumari6933 stop embarrassing yourself,will you?
@Rini - you are the ones shamelessly lying
The hijras held very prominant posts during the Mughal rule.They were treated with respect and were known for their wisdom.
Bhakts will come for u, run away
@@cam0987 actually they adopted Hindu tradition of fluidity
Bullshit in my Opinion Read Quoran Hijdas or any other 3rd Gender does not have a Right to live. Only Hindus accepted them
Can I say one thing you guys are atleast making my qurantine better ♡♡♡
hey.
Just came across swaddle through youtube Ad and became a fan instantly.
I really wana be a part of you guys.
I'm upsc aspirant n keep on wondering and questioning around things similar to subjects you guys create.
Keep doing the good work.
Loved it.
Tried contacting you on website but it failed.
Old Indian society was patriarchic. Why won't they indulge every fantasy of a man, even if it is to become 'woman'? As long as they stayed away from other men's 'property' i mean women, ancient Indian men had no problem with these men. Men in power will protect their rights even at the cost of women. Women are no longer 'property' of hetero men, so they have no interest in protecting women from other men who claim there are no difference between women and a man in a dress who should be able to access girls' toilets, sports, prison, bra-fitting room etc. etc. This is what is happening in the West. That women can't protest against them is because these men hold the power there.
In the west, if a man with beards and all claims to be a woman, he must be given all the rights of a woman including sharing accommodations in hospital wards, rape shelters, prison etc. If anyone, complains they are 'cancelled' by the woke mob. How is this not harmful to women? That is why we must keep the distinction between those who are women and those who want to pass as one.
We need more in depth knowledge about these matters.
Love this channel.❤️
Learning so many new things .
Ancient India was far more open minded .
Old Indian society was patriarchic. Why won't they indulge every fantasy of a man, even if it is to become 'woman'? As long as they stayed away from other men's 'property' i mean women, ancient Indian men had no problem with these men. Men in power will protect their rights even at the cost of women. Women are no longer 'property' of hetero men, so they have no interest in protecting women from other men who claim there are no difference between women and a man in a dress who should be able to access girls' toilets, sports, prison, bra-fitting room etc. etc. This is what is happening in the West. That women can't protest against them is because these men hold the power there.
In Canada some Sikh beauticians were dragged to court for refusing to touch and wax a man's p enis because he claimed he was a woman and they were discriminating against 't ra ns women'! This is the logical end point to this movement.
@@priyakumari6933 i agree with you . Not all the things done in ancient times were moral but here I'm just thinking of the silver linings. And by the comments you left I've to agree you've got more facts on this subject . I'm a beginner & not qualified enough to confront you .🙂
Everything was fine before desert cults started. Europe and Asia weren't patriarchal until the desert cult invasions started. Read the book "Dark Ages" by Catherine Nixey.
Great video.
I want to ask one thing though..Most examples provided of gender fluidity in ancient India usually involve men. Hijra, aravanis... These were born male who could identity out of their gender and present themselves as such too. Why do we VERY RARELY see born females getting to transcend their gender? Where are the gender non conforming women in our ancient and medieval history?
Patriarchy shows its ugly head here too...Where men get to transcend their gender but women usually don't!
I'd really like examples of more women!
So true. Unfortunately, our society is male and straight dominated. But we need to rise above all that. As the lady int he video said: Indifference to difference. We can all be different and still coexist peacefully!
But there are many lgbtq+ Gods and Godeses in the Indian mythology. There were two women who produced a child together (Bhagirath). There is a male character in Mahabharat 'Shikhandi', who was born a girl. And of course we have the 'Ardhnarishwar' concept where both Shiv Ji and Parvati Mata are joined together to show that God consists of both man and woman.
Read this article for a better idea: www.advocate.com/religion/2016/9/06/19-lgbt-hindu-gods
@@lawfulhusbands great article! Nice to see some female representation. Thank you !
Au Contraire madame, there are examples ofcourse.
For example, Manusmriti provides for punishment to homosexual men and women. Manusmriti says that if a girl has sex with another girl, she is liable for a fine of two hundred coins and ten whiplashes and if lesbian sex is performed by a mature woman on a girl, her head would be shaved or two of her fingers will be cut off as punishment. The woman would also be made to ride on a donkey.
Now I know that it's awful, but it provides a hint that there were gay women too in ancient India.
If you wanna find an example in medieval India, here we go- Terrace party scenes are commonly depicted in the later Mughal and Deccani paintings. Bathing and sex scenes are in abundance, with the king and his partner inevitably surrounded by attendants and guards. In By the Light of the Moon and Fireworks (1740, Kishangarh School, Harvard University art museums, Arthur M. Sackler Museum, Cambridge) an elderly and drunk Mughal king is titillated by a beautiful young woman. He is almost lost among the many intoxicated ladies surrounding him, some of whom have taken lesbian partners. Among the women, the dark-skinned eunuch stands out.
(I have copied the above from a website)
Why don't we have even more instances, or specific examples? The answer is because in a male dominated society, the history was written by priests and other scholars who were all males. Hence they probably skipped over that chapter/ wrote/painted it as per male gaze.
I couldn't find any mention of transgender (Female-to-male) though.
@@ColourMeRed_1990 interesting. I didn't know there were mentions of homosexuality in Kama Sutra.
And you are correct as to why we don't see that many positive examples. I am very happy we're now exploring the female gaze in regards to female homosexuality 🌹
We have shikhandi who was girl . She exchanged her gender with a male yaksha. She was also married to another women before her gender exchange.
So the flaws of our society basically came with the British.
Old Indian society was patriarchic. Why won't they indulge every fantasy of a man, even if it is to become 'woman'? As long as they stayed away from other men's 'property' i mean women, ancient Indian men had no problem with these men. Men in power will protect their rights even at the cost of women. Women are no longer 'property' of hetero men, so they have no interest in protecting women from other men who claim there are no difference between women and a man in a dress who should be able to access girls' toilets, sports, prison, bra-fitting room etc. etc. This is what is happening in the West. That women can't protest against them is because these men hold the power there.
@@priyakumari6933 if old indian society was SO patriartic we wouldnt have female godesses in hinduism ( no other religion has them or even if they do theyre not as imp as ours are) get out of your bubble that everything is wrong w india. Pre colonial india was wayy ahead of its time and hella progressive. You sound like one of those people who go crazy for white people and stare them . Saying this cause ur so fkn blindsighted eventho there is actual literal proof
No not all flaws come from there though obviously many do.
@@suhani1778 @Ishita Gupta No where did she, (Priya kumari) state any religion, so please don't give a religious angle to her comment.
Also most religions have just one God and though they are mostly male, it's because at that time too, men were considered powerful or stronger than women.
But there are other female goddesses too, though the examples are few (maybe because I know few, actually I know only two) one is of 'Mother Mary' in Christian mythology and other are 'Artemis', 'Athena', 'Hera' and some others from Greek mythology.
It is a good thing that hindu mythology has goddesses well known and followed, but in every religion and mythology gods and goddesses are important. So, don't say that they aren't as important as yours are.
And obviously there are things wrong and unjust in many places in world, but no one can go and mock someone with a broken house when their own is not in a good condition. We first have to improve ourselves and our society and environment.
Also no matter how ahead of the time and progressive pre-colonial India was we now are not in a good condition. We can't go around and blame colonialism for things since its been more than 70 years and we could have progressed a lot.
Also it was not as progressive as you are implying it to be, because if it was, then caste system wouldn't exist, sati wouldn't have ever existed, men wouldn't have been publicized as every household's moneymaker, and women as housewife. If we were that progressive, then some hand full Britishers wouldn't have been able to overpower us and set such ideas (some of which existed before them) in our brains so deeply, not to mention Hindu-Muslim hatred.
@@priyakumari6933 > so they have no interest in protecting women from other men who claim there are no difference between women and a man in a dress who should be able to access girls' toilets, sports, prison, bra-fitting room etc
Who tf says that there are zero difference between men and women? That's an obvious strawman of the intersectional feminist view on gender. Are you saying trans women are merely just "men in dresses"? Then don't complain why your are being called transphobic. If you don't accept trans people as their gender, then that's obviously transphobic.
> This is what is happening in the West. That women can't protest against them is because these men hold the power there.
Similar applies to men too, there's conservative men opposing trans rights too. There's the Trump Administration that literally passed stuff like Bathroom bills and making it legal to discriminate trans persons in homeless shelters and even in employment. What kind of a bubble you live in? The trans people don't secretly control the whole world or something, they have very little power, they are much more likely to live in poverty and experience significant social discrimination too. This is also the case in India, not just the west although the magnitude of this obviously varies, in India there is more poverty and social discrimination for them.
So interesting.. But don't think can blame the British entirely for our current regressive patriarchal and puranitical approach to sex sexuality and gender
Sure, like different gender identities, gender roles, sexualities have been prevailing from the beginning of Ancient civilization. Colons actually wanted to see what they wanted, and they wanted the change and "Civilization", but their way was so wrong-- now (many) Indians have the mindset of a nineteenth century Brit and Britishers have kind of normalised everything ❤️
Uhhh yes 😂. British colonised india for a long long time thts the reason yall changed playing by the rule books.
This knowledge mAkes me want to go live in pre colonial India.
exactly they had no problem with the LGBT? damn, so ahead of their time British really messed us up.
Exactly like I'm a lesbian and my parents are homophobic af so yeah pre colonial india sounds great
@@rutha777 and Mughals too
Main kehna chahti hu ki isi topic p Hindi me bhi video post kre so that hm Apne 40-50 age ke logon Ko bhi share kr ske
Exactly
Eggzactly what i have been suggesting this channel.... Jin tak pahuchna chahiye ye content un tak language ki wajah se nhi pahoch rha.
woh nhi sudhrenge or unhe samjhane me aapke bohot time waste ho jata hai. we are lucky we have this and we can raise our children and society in an equality and love filled way but our parents have no hope because they are mostly very narrow minded
@@no-body-nobody I have made my mum to believe.it's depends on how you make them to understand.Like I talk to my mum on a very daily basis with reasonable arguments.The change do not come in a single day.you have to be constant in your efforts.but never fight or offend to the extent that it leads to a dirty fight or mess up.Always be light on your pitch and cheers to the change like my mum who now understands my points.I listen to her .we both listen to each other and that's how a change start.
@@godwillsaveus6793 ahh you're lucky then. my dad is a typical narcissist(with all the traits, I was so surprised he had 100% of the traits) and it unfortunately doesnti work in his case and as for my mom it is a constant battle for her to either listen to logic(me and my sisters) or buckle under immense pressure and annoyance from my dad. so in my home it's a lost cause
you're lucky sis...don't know what else to say. wish I had empathetic parents
I love wearing women's clothing and makeup, but the public glare when I go out is so irritating. If women can wear shirts and trousers why can't I wear a dress of my choice
Well , men dressing up as women was quite normal in old days as women were not allowed to perform . They dressed up as women to portray women. Not to BE women or claim they were women. I think its misleading to say that was same as gender fluidity.
Trueee
But sexual freedom is only limited to royal class
Old Indian society was patriarchic. Why won't they indulge every fantasy of a man, even if it is to become 'woman'? As long as they stayed away from other men's 'property' i mean women, ancient Indian men had no problem with these men. Men in power will protect their rights even at the cost of women. Women are no longer 'property' of hetero men, so they have no interest in protecting women from other men who claim there are no difference between women and a man in a dress who should be able to access girls' toilets, sports, prison, bra-fitting room etc. etc. This is what is happening in the West. That women can't protest against them is because these men hold the power there.
Definitely your video will help me in my English and vocabulary....
Thank you So much for such a
Knowledge video from all aspects
"Vikriti Evam Prakriti" - everything is normal. What seems abnormal to you is also in the larger scheme of things normal. Ancient Sanskrit texts in one of the Vedas(Early Vedic Age)
M wondering why i dint find this channel earlier. 😊👍🏼 awesome content and presentation
While I agree with most of the points, gender fluidity and cross-dressing (what you are talking about) are totally different. The gender-fluid community is part of the LGBTQIA+ community. Gender-fluid people's pronouns change from time-to-time. Also, no, this isn't a stepping stone, it's a gender identity.
Hey, I do get what you're trying to say, but during those times there weren't ckear borders and pronouns were pretty gender neutral, like hum kar rahe hai, instead of mai karunga or karungi. Yk? So cross dressing was a way of showing that you're gender fkuid or comfortable in your sexuality.
@@arohisuryakumar5661 Well there was not any Non-Binary Gender Fluid Who Identified Himself or Herself as a "CAT" btw I'm gender Fluid Iphone 14
I just love this channel ❤️
Sorry, their is no concept of sexual fluidity in Islam. There are only two sexes in Islam. It is mentioned in Quran itself. The concept of sexual fluidity was there before pre Islamic colonisation to be precise. As per Quran , it’s punishable to be homosexual be it male or female. So, do your research properly. And when britishers came to India, there weren’t much of a change culture but religion conversions were pre dominant. As Christianity and Islam are pretty much the same belief apart from the last prophet. The info is completely wrong.
Thank you. The only sane one in the comments. She lists no sources, and still uses gendered terms to describe the people she's talking about, because her logic cannot fully wrap around the concept of 'gender fluidity' no matter how hard she tries to be 'woke' and seem 'inclusive'. The male disciples are still reffered to as male, dressing up as a women for ONE DAY in the culture didn't make them women, or gender-fluid. It was a symbolic act. It is different from the concept of 'gender fluidity' which believes essentially that you can choose to be a man, a woman, both, or neither, or any combination of what was just listed. She still uses 'gendered' terms to refer to these people and contradicts herself. It as if she doesn't even know what this term means.
Also, regradless of how you feel about homosexuality, men acting 'effeminate' doesnt make them not men. Drag queens dressing up as women doesn't mean they are suddenly not men. They are men in drag. A sexual binary is still recognized. Also, polygamy and polyandry have nothing to do with the concept of 'gender'. This women is ironically, transporting the gender crazed madness of the West, and bringing it to India, claiming she is purging it from the effects of British colonization, with information that is coming from the exact same people that colonized it. And this gender craze is driving the West (Britain) into madness. I do not want to see it transported to India with a false sense of history. Its ironically repeating the past.
Love your videos always..❤️❤️
Much needed channel, yet underrated.
Directly picked up from the ishq lecture series. Nice!
Wow such an informative video.
Will use this while coming out
Old Indian society was patriarchic. Why won't they indulge every fantasy of a man, even if it is to become 'woman'? As long as they stayed away from other men's 'property' i mean women, ancient Indian men had no problem with these men. Men in power will protect their rights even at the cost of women. Women are no longer 'property' of hetero men, so they have no interest in protecting women from other men who claim there are no difference between women and a man in a dress who should be able to access girls' toilets, sports, prison, bra-fitting room etc. etc. This is what is happening in the West. That women can't protest against them is because these men hold the power there.
Good work ♥️
Wow great info thanks ma'am
Old Indian society was patriarchic. Why won't they indulge every fantasy of a man, even if it is to become 'woman'? As long as they stayed away from other men's 'property' i mean women, ancient Indian men had no problem with these men. Men in power will protect their rights even at the cost of women. Women are no longer 'property' of hetero men, so they have no interest in protecting women from other men who claim there are no difference between women and a man in a dress who should be able to access girls' toilets, sports, prison, bra-fitting room etc. etc. This is what is happening in the West. That women can't protest against them is because these men hold the power there.
In Canada some Sikh beauticians were dragged to court for refusing to touch and wax a man's p enis because he claimed he was a woman and they were discriminating against 't ra ns women'! This is the logical end point to this movement.
British colonisation was basically the turning point for India. And i mean in a bad way
You guys are doing great job by bringing such topic 👍👍
But men dressing up as women does not make them women. It makes them men in women's clothing. And depending on the culture, such things were/are normal.
This is so cool!
Dear swaddles please do a detailed vedio
In Canada some Sikh beauticians were dragged to court for refusing to touch and wax a man's p enis because he claimed he was a woman and they were discriminating against 'minority women'! This is the logical end point to this movement.
It's never a good idea to justify discrimination against an entire group of people using stray incidents such as this.
@@decal4716 India already recognizes third genders in line with our traditions and we also recognize freedom of religion/cults which is what these cults are. What is not negotiable is to enshrine lies in the constitution and laws like men can ever become women as this will cause harm to women and children like in the Western countries. The discrimination is against women's rights and rights of religions who do not believe men can become women.
@@decal4716 she's writing the same shit everywhere
He lost that case by the way, and has been arrested for other reasons. He wasn't transgender/Hijra, but someone who fetishized wearing women's cloths and got gratification from entering women's only spaces.
That's WAY different from real gender fluidity.
Without the Brits you wouldn't have half the privilege you celebrate today.
India would be lacking behind more than it already is.
Malpractices would still exist.
It's debatable.
Yes but it doesn't confirm that their gender identity was anything other than the traditional man and woman
Dear Prof there is difference b/w Cross-Dressing and Gender Fluidity which has come to an extent of insanity in West where u can feel man one day and woman another day. It is true many of Krishna Bhakats especially in Bengal started to behave like women after a certain time which could be attributed as a mental condition where they surrender themselves as Radha in devotion.
I think indian schools should teach students about the meanings and the original meanings and traditions.
big L
YES
Divide and rule
Lure in the mule😅
Who is dividing whom though now? Old Indian society was patriarchic. Why won't they indulge every fantasy of a man, even if it is to become 'woman'? As long as they stayed away from other men's 'property' i mean women, ancient Indian men had no problem with these men. Men in power will protect their rights even at the cost of women. Women are no longer 'property' of hetero men, so they have no interest in protecting women from other men who claim there are no difference between women and a man in a dress who should be able to access girls' toilets, sports, prison, bra-fitting room etc. etc. This is what is happening in the West. That women can't protest against them is because these men hold the power there.
@@priyakumari6933 wtf r u even saying what does this even got to do with us women.
@@priyakumari6933 it's the proverb that the Britishers used...
India already recognizes third genders in line with our traditions and we also recognize freedom of religion/cults which is what these cults are. What is not negotiable is to enshrine lies in the constitution and laws like men can ever become women as this will cause harm to women and children like in the Western countries. The discrimination is against women's rights and safety and rights of religions who do not believe men can become women.
Aunty phle pronunciation karna sikh lo fir english me bolna, such a fake news she is spreading out
Ok boomer
No