Subwoofer speed and Quad electrostatics

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  • Опубликовано: 21 дек 2024

Комментарии • 61

  • @ØivindTangen
    @ØivindTangen 2 часа назад +1

    Here is my story: I got my ESL63s in 1985 for my 40th birthday and like Janett I have loved their fantastic clarity and detail ever since. I mostly play jazz and classical music on them. A few years later I added a pair of subwoofers made by Gradient in Finland to them. These subs came with an active crossover network that relieved the quads from the the lowest notes and thereby got even more detailed and relaxed sounding. I year ago I added a KEF KC62 sub to extend the low frequency handling even lower and this sub worked very nicely with the rest of the setup. Now two months ago I listened to the Aspen FR5s at the dealer here in Norway and noticed that they had much of the same clarity and detail as my quad setup at home. I needed a good pair of speaker for my TV listening and figured that the FR5s would be perfect for that. I got them home and started to experiment with placement and they just gave me a soundstage, depth and detail that matched the quads and surpassed them in dynamics and speed. So gradually I have moved more or less my whole stereo system out in the living room and have the time of my life listening to my favorite music in a new and even better way than with the quads. As a conclusion I can really recommend adding the KC62 to the quads, but can even more recommend replacing the quads with a pair of FR5s. My only problem now is that I cant get myself to go to bed. I sit up in the late hours listening to all my favorite tracks, even the the sound from commercials have become more interesting now :) PS (no pun) I remove the TV when listening to critical stereo and that improves the soundstage and depth dramatically!

  • @ulrikmortensen9426
    @ulrikmortensen9426 8 часов назад +4

    Paul: the best advice would be to seek out dipole subs. In the 1990es the Gradient SW 57 and 63 subs were the forerunners. The bass from dipole subs can match the clean undistorted sound from thecelectrostats. And they are FAST: because they STOP on a dime (no cabinet enclosure air spring to keep the woofer vibrating).

    • @gerritgovaerts8443
      @gerritgovaerts8443 6 часов назад

      Great advice , but I would like to add that it is much easier to add a dipole sub to dipole main speakers as the dispersion character is the same . With a monopole (omnipole) sub , like a REL , the out of phase sound of the main dipole speakers will annihilate the sound of the subwoofer at the back of the (omnipole) sub in the overlapping frequency band at the xover point . Your point about dipole speakers in general (sub or main) being FAST due to the lack of a cabinet that restricts movement is well taken . Vented cabinets (or passive membranes) don't improve the situation as these are resonating systems with even worse decay times .

  • @scottbrekken4898
    @scottbrekken4898 13 часов назад +5

    electrostatic and planar magnetic are dipoles and therefore need a dipole woofer/ sub. Being able to adjust the phase of the sub is critical and not just 0-180.

    • @gerritgovaerts8443
      @gerritgovaerts8443 6 часов назад +1

      spot on , otherwise the out of phase sound of the back of the main speakers kills the in phase sound at the back of the monopole sub

    • @dicmccoy
      @dicmccoy 3 часа назад

      Those 0-180° "phase" switches have nothing to do with a phase shift. They are simple polarity switches flipping the sinewave 180°. Yes, there's a difference, and a lot of audio companies don't know the difference which is sad. Cough....cough....REL.
      Also the term they use for finding the correct polarity as "in phase" is the wrong term. It should be in polarity and out of polarity. Phase aligning so everything is in phase is a whole other can of worms.

  • @cesarjlisboa7586
    @cesarjlisboa7586 13 часов назад +3

    Excellent tips. Thanks Paul

  • @gotham61
    @gotham61 10 часов назад +1

    I have used Quad ESL 57s with woofers for decades. For me the best match is achieved when you use an active crossover to high pass the Quads in addition to low passing the subs. I use the Gradient SW57 woofers, a pair of open baffle dipole subs that sit under the speakers. They were made to work with the Quads. I use a 125Hz crossover, which allows the Quads to play much louder without strain.

    • @andreasheiden7122
      @andreasheiden7122 Час назад

      What kind of x-over are you using? DSP?

    • @gotham61
      @gotham61 Час назад

      @ The Gradient comes with a crossover. All analog.

  • @Rowuk2024
    @Rowuk2024 12 часов назад +2

    Speed is NOT the issue when trying to integrate a subwoofer to the Quads. The issue is that the Quads are open back and the subwoofer is usually closed box. The closed box leads to standing waves in the listening room and THAT muddies up the midbass. This means that positioning of the subwoofer in the room is the critical factor. Finding the right position for the subwoofer is not difficult but does require time. 60 Hz could be a good start for experimentation.

  • @Pksparty2112
    @Pksparty2112 12 часов назад +2

    Paul nails it again

  • @bikdav
    @bikdav 9 часов назад

    Live music tends to have bass that slightly "lags behind" the mids and highs. I found that out while participating in the church music ministry. With that said, Paul's suggestion for setting up a subwoofer is spot on.

  • @skip1835
    @skip1835 13 часов назад +1

    I'm sorta on the same page as Paul on this issue with the exception of the crossover point - personally, I've found running the crossover point higher up helps with the blending problem when it comes panel speakers. In my own experience searching for that seamless presentation, I've found that it helps to find a blending point instead of the subs running subterranean while the mains are falling of in the 35htz range (with the quads, probably higher than that) - - the idea of the sub running with the crossover set very low only brings attention to it, an obvious disconnect between the two as the mains fall off and the subs finally kick in - - speakers like the Quads don't make much down low, if ya don't bring the sub's crossover point up some there'll always be a noticeable gap between the two and indeed, the sub will sound "slow". But Paul, imo, is right, they will blend with some fussing around - - all that's assuming care has been taken in level matching between the mains and subs too, although dead matching via measuring is not necessarily the ticker either - a bit of lower roll off can sound more musically natural.

  • @MatsNilsson-h5l
    @MatsNilsson-h5l 13 часов назад +1

    If you have the ESL63, look for Gradient sub. Perfect match, they are actually made to match the Quads. They will also serve as a stand for the Quad as you put them on top of the sub and it will be a small frame on the sub as well to cover the foot of the Quad and secure a stable fitting to each other. It will be delivered with all equipment to mount it, including the cross over unit. You only need to get another power amplifier to feed the sub. In fact, as your Quad will be positioned a bit higher it will make them sound significantly better, without even using the sub. It will look as one speaker, not as separate units.

    • @gotham61
      @gotham61 10 часов назад

      I have the SW57s which are superb, but extremely hard to find today. Only 100 pairs were made.

  • @rudolfglaser9664
    @rudolfglaser9664 16 часов назад

    My main experience with electrstat and subwoofer was with the combination of Stax Sigma pro and a Yamaha YST SW 1500 on which I sat together with the headphones - these were exceptional sound experiences that I have not had with loudspeakers and this subwoofer.

  • @Joshualbm
    @Joshualbm 9 часов назад +1

    Janet should consider 2 subwoofers. I've found this to be an absolute. The room placement may be different for each one but 2 will get you closer to realism than you ever thought possible. One sub cannot cover left and right bass cues in the recording. You'll run into phase issues with just one sub.

  • @connorduke4619
    @connorduke4619 15 часов назад

    There is also a concept that subwoofer Nemo Propogands mentions, being that "most" subwoofers are designed for impact (for moveis) but not high sound quality (for hifi listening). And the exceptional subwoofers with high SQ are those with a sealed box design like indeed many RELs but also Dynaudio. I chose the latter as they go lower than the price comparable RELs.

  • @glenncurry3041
    @glenncurry3041 8 часов назад +1

    The term "speed" keeps getting used in discussing subwoofers. At the frequencies they should be operating "speed" has nothing to do with them. They are "slow" by design and definition. What is actually being discussed is "timing". The time relationship between the low mass planar drivers and the output of the large cone woofer. Not only the specific timing of the output of the single signal, but delays introduced by the different physical locations. As you say, keep the crossover freq as low as possible to keep that distance between the two systems within the wavelength being generated.

  • @lexicon612
    @lexicon612 13 часов назад +4

    It amazes me how anyone can become an audiophile and not understand that there is nothing more important (in any audiophile system) than 50 Hz and below. Sounds like she has been missing so much, for a very long time. Sound revelations this late in her audio life...better late than never, I suppose. Why no mention of stereo subs and the importance of them? 1 Sub...is that really what you recommend she do? imho 1 sub just introduces her to those low frequencies she has been missing. Implementing bass correctly as a stereo pair will yield the best results. Don't you agree?

  • @geoff37s38
    @geoff37s38 14 часов назад +3

    It is not a myth that matching a sub to electrostatics can be problematic. I have large electrostatic speakers that go down to 40Hz. A large 12 or 15 ported sub can sound half a beat behind. A better match would be a Ripole (look it up) or a smaller sealed box sub. I use a B&W 10 sealed box sub which has low pass filter set to max and gives a fill for the bottom octave. Electrostats have a fast transient response and low distortion that many box speakers cannot match.

    • @sudd3660
      @sudd3660 14 часов назад

      subwoofer driver size do not matter much below 50hz, and i can only vouch for sealed boxes personally.
      but every active subwoofer has a delay, that is the biggest issue, more dsp more delay, that can only be fixed with placement closer to the listener and/or adding delay to main speakers.
      people get a subwoofer and try to make it work, most likely its a bit behind in time/phase shifted. so you can only adjust the phase to make it cycle behind and that is the most common experience people have. that is why ported can "work" because its already behind and you do not do much to make it sound in phase but "out of time"
      i been there myself, and thought that was good sound, speakers and active subwoofer.
      after i got the dsp before the dac and amplification, now i can match everything after that up, passive speakers and passive subwoofer. preferably two subwoofers in stereo.

    • @gerritgovaerts8443
      @gerritgovaerts8443 6 часов назад +1

      My subs are Ripoles , own design . Sound great . Integration of a sub with dipole main speakers will always be problematic unless you go for dipole subs for obvious reasons (out of phase sound from the back of the dipole main speakers)

    • @geoff37s38
      @geoff37s38 2 часа назад

      @@gerritgovaerts8443 Very interesting. What drivers did you use? I am thinking of making one as I don’t think there are any commercial Ripoles available.

  • @annebokma4637
    @annebokma4637 5 часов назад

    Using quad ESL 57 and acoustat x with 2* open baffle 2*15" bass. Loving it

  • @razisn
    @razisn 17 часов назад +4

    Well said. A driver needs to be as 'fast' as the highest frequency it is called upon to reproduce.

  • @hiresaudiocosta873
    @hiresaudiocosta873 39 минут назад

    Paul, it’s not a myth. It’s a fact that most subwoofers don’t have fast enough transient response times to keep up with a lighter and quicker driver.
    The right subwoofer with the right amplifier with the right adjustments such as time delay and phase rotation and placement, can blend seamlessly. But it takes careful selection and implementation.

  • @MegaM563
    @MegaM563 13 часов назад

    For good integration with fast speakers get a sealed 10 inch sub max. Rel with speakon high level inputs are good for music. Any bigger will be slower. Maybe get two if you have a big room. My experience is that the location of the sub in the room is crucial besides the gain phase and crossover. Where it is most convenient visually and for the interior it usually sounds bad. The distance from the wall is crucial. Setting up a sub right requires quite some effort. But if you get it right the improvement in scale and soundstage is pretty significant. Best location for me surprisingly was: move the couch two or three feet from the rear wall and let the sub fire sideways behind the couch from left to right or vice versa as long as it doesn't fire in the direction of the corner on a sidewall.

  • @PSA78
    @PSA78 14 часов назад

    The drivers job is to displace air to send a wave, if it's doing it at the right dB and without time delay, phase issues or distortion, then it's neither fast or slow but integrated (with other drivers, room and even electronics) and well engineered.
    "Fast" is a way of describing things, but not really a thing, we can quantify and thereby localise or evaluate potential issues.

  • @IanKnight40
    @IanKnight40 15 часов назад +1

    Yep... I made the error of judgement years ago....I purchased a M&K subwoofer ....I could not get the volume low enough either. M&K sent me a more resistive potentiometer. Alas it was so unpredictable and lumpy I sold it ...😅

  • @slacker23666
    @slacker23666 9 часов назад

    ABSOLUTELY THIS! A bad subwoofer sounds best in its off position

  • @stimpy1226
    @stimpy1226 8 часов назад

    My Maggie 3.6 R’s paired with a Carver True subwoofer set up and adjusted properly make my system sound pretty homogeneous at least to my ears.

  • @jamesrobinson1579
    @jamesrobinson1579 9 часов назад

    While I will definitely defer to your expertise... My experience with many different subwoofers would also suggest that for "fast and accurate" response you need to chose a sub that is sealed spacesuit tight... Even super high end servo controlled ported subs (to my ears and including painstaking setup and placement) will sound a little bit "sloppy" compared with a very good sealed sub...
    My free observation and worth every penny you paid for it 😂

    • @gerritgovaerts8443
      @gerritgovaerts8443 6 часов назад +1

      You should try a dipole sub , no closed cabinet , no evil back wave to hit that membrane and influence the decay behaviour .

  • @stephens2r338
    @stephens2r338 11 часов назад

    Hi Paul, as a suggestion regarding your sub design. Could you please add a microphone where it can be placed in the listening position and have the sub measure the rooms main speakers only first so that the subs dsp can then add bass where needed and not where it's not. It really helps set up in difficult rooms for example square. Merry Christmas to you all at PS

  • @austinlibby7025
    @austinlibby7025 7 часов назад

    I live with quad 75s and two EV that’s right electro Voice 30 inch subwoofers for over 17 years unfortunately I moved in. I just needed a change but it worked that I love them and I wish I never had gotten rid of the quads anyhow that’s my hi-fi audio story mistake, letting them go

  • @SuperMcgenius
    @SuperMcgenius 11 часов назад +1

    Yes Rel makes good subs, I would add get two smaller subs for better Integration.

  • @bilguana11
    @bilguana11 6 часов назад

    The TBI Audio Direct Port Modulation powered DPM-8P subwoofers are the fastest. REIs are very slow and muddy in comparison.

  • @stanislavshokurov6532
    @stanislavshokurov6532 8 часов назад

    Never seen “speed” in any speakers specification. How it’s being measured? I believe my speakers are pretty fast, they can run easily 100 mph 😊

  • @miscreant1739
    @miscreant1739 10 часов назад

    I was so proud of you for not immediately recommending they get a REL sub… then you had to go and ruin it. Please stop telling people to buy garbage.

  • @Enemji
    @Enemji 6 часов назад

    The REL subwoofers are what Janet should check out.

  • @edasm4113
    @edasm4113 9 часов назад

    Volkswoofer.

  • @charlesludwig9173
    @charlesludwig9173 14 часов назад

    Seamless is pretty easy for me to get from 2.1 and 5.1 systems which feature a means to adjust sub frequency range and volume. My sub is a circa 1985 JBL-380 which complements a pair of JBL L100t3’s.

  • @brianmoore581
    @brianmoore581 18 часов назад +6

    Am I first? Merry Christmas!

  • @gody7334-music-qh9qw
    @gody7334-music-qh9qw 16 часов назад +3

    get a measuring microphone and do it properly 😆

  • @Rob81957
    @Rob81957 14 часов назад

    You have to try PMC.

  •  17 часов назад +4

    The "speed" of drivers might be one of the most common misconceptions among audiophiles

    • @volpedo2000
      @volpedo2000 17 часов назад +1

      In what way?

    •  16 часов назад +1

      @volpedo2000 @razisn explained it pretty well below. A driver needs to be as "fast" as the highest frequency it needs to reproduce. Oversimplified: There is no such thing "fast" or "slow" bass. I guess what most people mean is, in technical terms "group delay": When a bass driver's response delay is so significant that it can't keep up with the midrange driver above it. Imagine two runners. They are equally fast but one of them misses the starting gun by a 10th of a second. That's why many transmission line speakers tend to sound sluggish.

    • @sudd3660
      @sudd3660 14 часов назад +2

      you literally just explained one of that factors that is speed.
      there is a lot of technical reasons but anyone listening to subwoofers can just say speed and we all understand what it is. except you of course.

    • @Jorge-Fernandez-Lopez
      @Jorge-Fernandez-Lopez 14 часов назад +1

      @@volpedo2000 How would play a Do#(1) or C#(1) note (plus harmonics) two electrostatic speakers? As "slow" as any speakers or two subwoofers (stereo), exactly at 34,65 Hz, or 34,65 1/s, or 34,65 cycles per second. Setup and room are the culprits of any mismatch and big room modes or cancellations; any speakers will emphasize these problems if they can go low enough (most bookshelves do in many rooms) or aren't setup well (which can include parametric eq. with high Q because most "bass traps" won't work in some/many circumstances). Lows produced by any kind of speaker aren't easy to configure, but they improve the sound-stage and the music beyond I thought they could. Two subs, one didn't work for me.

    •  13 часов назад

      @sudd3660 needless to say I don't, but due to your kind explanation, I might grasp it some day. Thank you for that

  • @clickbeetle2720
    @clickbeetle2720 14 часов назад

    🖤🥱when in 2025..? 🙄 mebbe you could label that model _the procrastinator..🤭_ certain people are getting fidgety..😂

  • @BlAcKpHrAcK
    @BlAcKpHrAcK 17 часов назад +1

    RnB, 60s, Jazz, Wartime Radio Cool-down, broadcast 14-12-2024 ruclips.net/user/liveURP7s2m81YQ?si=4_O_VK71SGr9q5Kj&t=2543

  • @austinlibby7025
    @austinlibby7025 7 часов назад

    I live with quad 75s and two EV that’s right electro Voice 30 inch subwoofers for over 17 years unfortunately I moved in. I just needed a change but it worked that I love them and I wish I never had gotten rid of the quads anyhow that’s my hi-fi audio story mistake, letting them go