You can draw parallels between the Daemon and the Jungian Self. Both of which are illuminating your spirit in the realm of darkness. The ferryman in the river of styx. It guides you towards your "state of becoming".
I honestly think it can be closer to that. Even with the exemple of Socrates. This feels like the archétype of the Self, and they learned to develop a deep connection with it. Very interesting. I wonder what would happen if more people became sensitive to their inner life like that. This might be what Nietzsche was talking about when he said that the death of God would have to be replaced by the Ubermensch.
@@itssameLuigi Nietzsche definately had intimations about the Self especially in his magnum opus, Thus Spake Zarathustra. The whole bloody book is about the process of individuation.
I’ve always wondered the difference between the “higher self” that exists outside space and time in the presence of the Lord, the “daemon” or sometimes source of artistic inspiration, the holy spirit, and actual demonic or angelic presences… and how to discern between them all. My answer has been to only focus upon God and ignore all the rest out of fear I may not be able to discern.
I can relate too. I think that God as all, is too incomprehensible for imagination, and some people prefer to view him as its "component part" - hypostasis: god, angel or saint, which is specifically related, to the problem they have right now.
I agree, and the fathers left a pretty good guiding institution, practices, and writings on the subject along with mentors in the laity and monastery and the Saints to take that full burden for us. They also cut the Daimon down to Nous and intellect, which understanding the Stoics and Neoplatonist quite well. And with the concept of Christ as logos, and all things bearing his trace but not yet knowing him, Christ transfigured the wisdom of the Sage and already discerned it.
I like how Jonathan keeps responding with: “Hmmm…” … “Hmmm”… “Hmmm…” I also like how he clarified that his experience is more of the transpersonal experience that St. Gregory describes.
"My Daimon is morally neutral (is good and/or bad) because my Daimon doesn't care much about my comfort and safety" This seems to be Bernardo's reasoning, however there is a huge amount to unpack here... Compare to Socrates whose Daimon 'pushed' him towards his death, so presumably didn't care about his comfort and safety either, but Socrates didn't think this meant the Daimon's bigger purposes were morally wrong. He trusted that although he didn't understand why it was right in the fullness of time it would prove to be.
I have personally experienced something akin to Bernado's daemon. I think it is essentially a mild (perhaps even normal) form of dissociation, your logical analytical mind, the part of you that feels as if it 'wills' actions, realises that it does not create impulses, intuitions, motivations etc, so it looks AT them as foreign. From that point of view they look like a separate being, rather than part of yourself. This can also be experienced in lucid dreams; there is the conscious, willing 'you' and then other characters, all created by your mind and so a part of you, but in a way separate. I think such experiences may be more common in those who have a strong rational/logical streak, and so have a tendency to alienate everything outside of that part of themselves. This is possibly what happened to Jung - who had been a scientist of sorts and then experienced a splitting of his personality. Some of Jung's descriptions of the inner life closely match what Bernado describes, and are also quite similar to another scientist who experienced a sort of mystical breakdown, Emanuel Swedenborg. Taken to the extreme, this starts to look like schizophrenia - that voice in my head is not me, it's somebody else. Interestingly, engineers, or the offspring of engineers, are more likely than people in other professions to become schizophrenic (speaking as the offspring of two engineers...). I believe that Iain McGilchrist's work is especially relevant to all of this. However just what this means theologically is totally unclear to me. By the way not trying to diagnose anybody or anything like that, like I say I've experienced similar stuff. I think that these experiences are probably quite common and normal, and may even point the way to a healthy integration.
Yes. Perhaps it’s to do with two hemispheres of the brain. One side is more linguistic and thus presumably the site of our conscious rational self while the other is more intuitive and less or non linguistic? However, perhaps the conscious rational side can at times be aware of the other hemisphere which is processing data but non linguistically? Just my crazy ideas as layperson.
Very well put. I also experience frequent dissociation, and when I do, it's like you said: I'm all rational, and yet I feel totally detached from my body and like I'm on autopilot. Also, I just want to say something, not to quibble, but you said taken to the extreme, this mode can become schizophrenia. I would say psychosis, not schizophrenia, unless the psychosis becomes chronic and episodic, then at that point it's probably fair to say you're actually dealing with schizophrenia.
I was confused listening to this point. There were plenty of times when he said it kicked him to do something different than he wanted. He said himself is the “evil” one out of the good/evil angle caricature which means that his daemon is pushing him away from evil. Maybe??? Idk. I might be caught in dualistic thinking. It just didn’t make sense in the way Bernardo talked about it and how it pushed him to do or not so certain things. If anyone has answers please respond at me! What does morally neutral mean? Does it mean amoral? Does it mean not “good” or “bad”? I can see things being morally neutral, like choosing to brush your teeth or not. Brushing your teeth means you’re taking care of your body which is small good. Is there a difference between this idea (that there are “goods” pointing us to the Good which we should pursue) and saying an action is moral/amoral/morally neutral?? Thank you.
@@ckokomo808 yes. I believe he meant amoral as in dosnt have a moral stance on things that people generally have a moral stance on. Brushing your teeth is a neutral act, however other acts are very much not neutral.... often people i meet who talk about moral neutrality or are against duality, Don't seem to understand that something like a rape for example is bad, it's evil, it's definitely not morally neutral and it's not the same as Brushing ones teeth.. that where the whole neutrality argument falls apart for me. That's why i came to the conclusion that God gave us the bible to tell us how it is because we humans can justify just about anything.
I also have this experience of something being in me that is not me. It calls me to things like love, joy, to face my fears with love, to let the scars of my heart to melt away, to climb out of a cramped shell to a more full existence as a person, and to union with others and with God. This seems to be completely morally good, and as a christian, I'm very inclined to think that this is the Holy Spirit. It's sad that others live with these "daemons" that have to be described as morally neutral or even evil...
Yes, i was thinking the same thing. I have the same thing that is very much invested in my well-being, sometimes that includes the molding of character like whenGod refers to us as clay on the potters wheel, we aren't promised that we will have no troubles but the Holy Spirit is called our helper and comforter in the Bible, i believe that this is what that presence and 'being' i have with me is. It's not morally neutral though in my experience... before I became a Christian I believe I had something else pursuing me though, before I was Christian i suspected it was bad but i didn't have the language to explain it or understand what it was.
It feels like the Holy Spirit never makes me feel plain bad. There is conviction, but always that invitation to live the Kingdom life. Sometimes when I have felt that “sheer hell,” I have actually asked God to protect me from evil / demons, and that feeling immediately went away. I have my own anxieties, and sometimes I spiral a bit-I know part of being human is to deal with intense stress and confusion-but when I can’t reason away or soothe the “sheer hell,” prayer has often freed me from it.
Demons appear the way you perceive them..They are half of the human psyche and you can't deny them. When you do deny them you deny your Shadow self IE repressed feelings emotions etc. That's when they'll hurt you
Its greek language my friend, daimon/daemon/genius is synonym of guardian angel, he use this word in the way platonists used it not as christian demon, Jonathan understood this and even made a joke about it
@@jgarciajr82 That bad habit may be a demon but..When you ignore that demon the addiction will persist.. demons are the dark aspects of our psyche. They're there you can't deny them you have to accept them and face them. They create and destroy. Accept them and accept yourself 100%
Steiner believed that the Double could become an obstacle to spiritual development if it is not properly integrated with the physical body. He taught that the Double can sometimes become autonomous and work against the individual's spiritual progress, leading to psychological and physical imbalances. He discussed the Double in many of his lectures, particularly in his lectures on Anthroposophical Psychology, Anthroposophical Spiritual Science, and Anthroposophical Spiritual Psychology. Some specific lectures where he discussed the Double include: "The Double and the Shadows in Human Life" (GA 57) "The Double and the Etheric Body" (GA 143) "The Double and the Ego" (GA 178) "The Double and the Spiritual Senses" (GA 219) then of course there is Dostoyevsky's Double!
Cool discussion! I was also pleasantly surprised to discover someone who defends Schopenhauer (my fav)--an incredibly unpopular stance that begs to be defended honestly. Would love to hear these two discuss Julian Jaynes, who has a rather deep angle on the daemon, relying on Dodds, Snell and others, tracing words like 'daemon', 'genius' (roman tutelary spirit), 'thumos' etc back through their evolving meanings
The Person I usually sense is the Holy Spirit, and I am so blessed in His presence. But every now and then, I seem to catch a glimpse of someone else who is helping me experience the Holy Spirit. I think they may always be with me but usually only directing my attention to God. Lately, it feels like a whisper into my thoughts to make a good choice. Those thoughts are quieter than most of my other ones but distinctive. It feels separate from me but positive. I believe I feel negative beings as well, which manifest in various ways, but that is how I experience the positive beings.
I feel Jonathan is speaking of psychological processes with a religious language , I feel Bernardo is trying to rationalise his experience using the same religious / symbolic language as Johnathan. Only for me it kinda seems like Bernardo might suffer something real with the demonic, and he is trying to rationalise using symbolic language. I would seek out a priest with experience with the demonic if I were Bernardo.
It’s a reference to Socrates, who claimed to have an inner voice or “personal divinity” which deterred him from acting immorally. Socrates referred to this voice as his “Daemon” which at the time meant simply a disembodied intelligence. Keep in mind that angels themselves are disembodied intelligences, which is why Jonathan calls it a guardian angel. I think we all experience an inner voice which deters us from acting immorally, we just call is a conscience - dangerously close to the word conscious. Bernardo is characterizing his conscience as not prioritizing his physical well-being, and as we all know acting righteously does not always improve our physical circumstances. I see no issue with this.
@@JamesDixonMusic I agree one should have respect for the demonic card. But I reacted to two things. 1) He made a major change in his life due to it. 2) He got "punished" by it, by having strong anxiety, and other negative thoughts; this sounds like demonic oppression. It may not be, but since it has had such an impact on him I would not rule it out, and I would have sought out a priest with experience of this matters.
Jonathan, I want to say that I don't think that the fact you see Christ in your guardian angel's voice is from you Protestant background. I'm an Eastern Orthodox from my birth and I feel the same thing. This inner voice tells me to do something but I usually respond to Christ. And I'm aware that it is not Christ who is talking to me but my guardian angel. The conclusion I got (this is my personal view so I may say some heresies) is that in a way Christ and the guardian angel are united in one. It is like in a monastic story where a Father said that he prefers to be an hermit than to serve people in a monastery. His explanation for this was that in Heaven there is one will while people have an infinite number of wills. So I'm thinking that the voice of the guardian angel is the same with the voice of Christ; I see as a unity between the will of the guardian angel and Christ. I'm not sure if it makes any sense.
It would not make sense if Christ and guardian angle did not agree, we differentiate God as those layers of hierarchy, it helps us understand, but angle is personification of Gods will it can't have it's own opinion.
I feel pushed clearly with crash of caos in my physical world and I have to go to silence and prayer to ask god what he wants for me as his servant. I do have clear that Jesus is my lord and king, and I have contact with him since I seek him very often.
I had a leopard hunt my consciousness down and play with it like a fresh pray. It challenged me to explore realms and open doors. Pressing my ego with an excited mania. There was something always just slightly out of reach.... I was going it alone. I needed a true church.
Somehow it could be like the ruling planets of the Roman Zodiac, not totally guardian spirits but high spirits that drive you to behave a certain way and entices you in things you didn't know you're interested with
Thank you both. I wonder if the "push and pull" guidance corresponds to approach & avoid response and its manifestations in our different constitutions or personality traits or preferences?
My personal relationship with this isn’t exactly as described here. It’s more of a symbiotic relationship and bond, but the force of nature is accurate in description, and the acceptance that this is a being alive for many lifetimes beyond my own is something I often contemplate. Being chosen, is an honor. Regardless of what, or who, chooses us.
A deamon is not a demon. The daemon is part of you and it doesn’t have the same perceptions of earth as we do. It does push you towards your highest good but it doesn’t always look like it as good and bad are relative to your over all purpose and best interest. This man knows what he’s talking about. I’ve experienced it for myself and it’s not something to take lightly but isn’t by any means evil. Just not understood in a way most people would be able to. “Negotiating” with it is more akin to trying to help it realize the earth experience isn’t always a pleasant one and to go easy on our poor mortal body/ minds lol
I relate to this man, feeling constantly pulled towards things that are damaging to myself in the long run. There's no counter voice though from my experience, only "me". Sounds rather bleak doesn't it!
If there is no shadow of turning in the Divine Mind (James 1:17), then there are no dissociated aspects within it either. The Incarnation is the revelation of a God (Father, Son and Spirit) fully associated with Their creation, as well as Themselves. All of existence is fully known by God in Christ. He’s the Light of the world-what God knows about Themselves and us perfectly within His hypostatic union. In Him, all is illuminated, associated with Him from before all things.
Bernardo Kastrup Thanks for all your deep insights, I admire your work! One question remains however: Isn't Nature ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS working through (a) you, whether you see/like/allow it or not? You assume that you can negotiate with the daemon but isn't this inner process not simply the ego-bounded inside interpretation (of this so-called limited/dissociated mind) of Nature unfolding? Everything rises up spontaneously in the empty spaceousness of Mind as I see it, including ideas of negotiation between a little and a big mind.
Did shrooms once and it was cool until i was alone and was twisting and turning in my bed trying to remove spirit from my chest. It has been there...holding tightly. Dude got me stepping in the ring and boxing. Getting my ass kicked. I dont even know what im doing. But it wants me to do it. I cant even explain it to other boxers. This is my daemon.
I hope Bernardo can answer if he reads comments: Does Bernardo's Daimon propose actions only (push) or does it like Socrates' daimon also prevent actions (oppose)?
I liked this interview. I feel like the conversation got a little hung up on semantics but I do feel whole heartedly we have divine cursors and/or precursors. I am experiencing the push/pull on my own path. Until I found this channel, i always referred to what i now understand to be the symbolic as Truth and Lie. However, i have difficulty living in the grey zone of dialectics so thats where I struggle in making connections. I dont intend to be but my brain is stuck in black and white thinking. Actively in DBT rn so hopefully i can start to venture down that path as well!
I’ve heard the theory about the many competing voices in a human kinda of like a parliament of beings arguing over what the body should do. Maybe that’s what the we are legion part of the Bible was talking about.
So is any religious experience according to medical science so what. Any perspective can make any opposite understanding as insane. No dialogue can be created if you just assume that others are insane.
The Orthodox Christian terminology is objectively true. Whoever uses Jungian/ancient Greek incoherent terms will always be confused and confusing. The Church is the only safe haven. Outside of her, one is bound to be led astray.
He seems to be equating his own safety with things being morally write or wrong. Which is not how God and Christ see it. Not exactly. So I can't really get a sense for what his 'daemon' is telling him to do other than it being against his own personal sense of comfort. Though that he equates his own comfort with good and evil may speak to why this 'daemon' deals with him so.. harshly. The man himself is admitting his own views on what he considers moral. Then again, I'd really like to as him about that aspect more specifically.
Can i ask why Catholics and Orthodox in general pray to Saints. My understanding is that Saints are people who pursued God in an exceptional way but I'm confused as to why you would pray to them as opposed to praying directly to God or Jesus. I'm pretty sure it says in the Bible not to consult the dead but instead to go to the one who brings life? I don't mean to be rude or argumentative but i like some of the Orthodox conversations but there's some things about orthodoxy i can't reconcile with my understanding of the Bible.
The Saints are not dead. As Jesus said: "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”- Mark 12:27 We pray to the saints for intercession just as one can ask their pastor to pray for them, you can in general ask someone closer to God to pray for you.
@@superroydude While I understand this part of things, Jesus said the only way to the Father is through him. He didn't name Moses. He didn't name Abraham nor any one else. So while even sinners can recognize someone who has gotten very close to God, Christ is closest and is the ONLY WAY. By his own words. What makes you so confident you can side step these specific declarations? Certainly I see how taking tips from someone who also navigated the maze of sin, but that's different than what Catholics and Orthodox do.
I like to describe my Daemon as me with out any ego whatsoever. I would describe the daemon as indifferent rather than "impersonal". The daemon is far from a guardian angel. A very simplistic way to envision it is, the daemon is a point between you and the Creator. A christian might call it Jesus. An occultist might call it his Daemon. Carl Jung called his Philemon.
“…a man’s character is his daemon.” -Heraclitus Oh boy. I think they are a bit off. Relax, live your life, have fun, dance, express yourself. You can live a life. The daemon/daimon can be negotiated with. It is a very subtle cat and mouse game. You have to live backwards for a bit once you become aware of it and it makes its presence known. The Neoplatonists could invoke them physically it seems. Some are more intelligent and powerful than others. And there is not just one type. What I am describing are imaginal transpersonal beings it seems. More than one can attach themselves to you. It’s fun to play with until you see the puppet it can make you. You can be robotic, but you aren’t a robot. It’s an aspect of our minds. One we call the unconscious today. It is interesting to me how someone with Johnathan’s tradition colors everything with their version of reality. Everyone has their own slice of the pie. Everyone has their own view of things. It is a sensational subject, but one I can personally say is quite real. It can make things very uncomfortable. The materialists say this is a form of madness, which may be true in a way. You can go quite insane living like a pinball. It is a most powerful ally. It amplifies your intention. It can seem evil or angelic. In reality, it’s more of a shadow. Neutral.
How can you even identify that "daemon" as something with an identity? I always experience my impulses and my thoughts as individual thoughts in themselves and is up to me to judge them. Sometimes it becomes super clear to me the procedence of these thoughts, and I think: "this is totally what my brother would tell me to do", etc. The only way I've learned to judge them is through the "alignment" to God that Pageau always speaks about. Otherway I would have to use the "oriental" aproach of just taking them all as the "universal mind" Bernardo mentioned. I would most of the time struggle to know what is mine, and what is not.
So you have this entire tradition with perfectly coherent terminology and understanding of the spiritual realities you're describing... but you choose not to use that terminology and force some other, foreign and imprecise terminology. If you have to make an effort to avoid calling something what it is, you might be doing it wrong.
"The other little beings Bernado cares about" I understand what he is trying to convey here, but probably not the best way to word it, some people would say this is telling in how you view yourself in relation to others.
SOOOOO greatful you posted this! I didn't know if I was possessed and damned... because it acts for things that are good for me (rarely) or if I was schizoeffected. The jury on this is out (because it acts not exactly like any religion (i.e. Mara / Maya) At any rate... thank you.
So, basically, you pissed your Guardian Angel so much he decided to start whipping you in the right direction... now we know Angels can get desperate... For any inquisitors who read this comment, calm your Malleus Maleficarums, is a joke. I am quite sure Angels have a sense of humor too...
this daemon you talk about, couldn't that be your anima? Our ego or persona is only concerned with the transient worldly matters, this other part wants us to wake up from this pursuit of pleasure or will to power and seek that which is real, beyond the senses. Our immortal origin out of time and space, the absolute. It's as if you're dreaming, and the sounds from waking reality start inhabiting your dream, taking shape and form in a way to disturb your dream, manifesting the unmanifested which will lead to awakening. Your creative output is a one way filter which tries to describe that which cannot be described, the unknowable. It can only be attained once your perception is shifted, once you focus the beam of light which is dispersed on the transient. You are like a projector of your inner light, and it constantly seeks its own true reflection, without the filter, beyond shape and form.
Look into what daemon means. Just because you associate it with the word "demon" doesn't mean it has anything to do with that. Bernardo ses it as a metaphor to refer to the impersonal Will of nature, in the sense that Schopenhauer used the term.
@@Paakku97I appreciate your kind approach considering how wrong you might think I am. But, what I wrote isn't a variation on the word/concept fallacy, like you suggest. I actually think he's describing demons. You probably disagree, that's ok. God bless.
@@annalynn9325 No, there is in fact a difference in meaning. Demon refers to a psychic entity with an evil agenda, malevolent and afflicting. Daemon, or Daimon (the correct Greek transliteration), is morally neutral. It doesn't mean that a person possessed by a Daemon will behave in a good manner, but it tells more about our value judgment than the Daemon's agenda, which is in fact none. While both are possessing, a Demon is a bad spirit while a Daemon is a neutral force. He is very clear about what kind of possession he is experiencing.
@@namero999 The word demon comes from daemon, etymologically the same. What that tells me is they refer to the same being understood differently between early Christians and the ancient Greeks from whence the word came. It should be no surprise that speaking of a demon as morally neutral rather than evil would come from someone who, well, has a demon.
You can draw parallels between the Daemon and the Jungian Self.
Both of which are illuminating your spirit in the realm of darkness. The ferryman in the river of styx. It guides you towards your "state of becoming".
I honestly think it can be closer to that. Even with the exemple of Socrates. This feels like the archétype of the Self, and they learned to develop a deep connection with it. Very interesting. I wonder what would happen if more people became sensitive to their inner life like that. This might be what Nietzsche was talking about when he said that the death of God would have to be replaced by the Ubermensch.
@@itssameLuigi Nietzsche definately had intimations about the Self especially in his magnum opus, Thus Spake Zarathustra. The whole bloody book is about the process of individuation.
I’ve always wondered the difference between the “higher self” that exists outside space and time in the presence of the Lord, the “daemon” or sometimes source of artistic inspiration, the holy spirit, and actual demonic or angelic presences… and how to discern between them all. My answer has been to only focus upon God and ignore all the rest out of fear I may not be able to discern.
@@raven5875 love this thank you
I can relate 💕
Read René Girard
I can relate too. I think that God as all, is too incomprehensible for imagination, and some people prefer to view him as its "component part" - hypostasis: god, angel or saint, which is specifically related, to the problem they have right now.
I agree, and the fathers left a pretty good guiding institution, practices, and writings on the subject along with mentors in the laity and monastery and the Saints to take that full burden for us.
They also cut the Daimon down to Nous and intellect, which understanding the Stoics and Neoplatonist quite well. And with the concept of Christ as logos, and all things bearing his trace but not yet knowing him, Christ transfigured the wisdom of the Sage and already discerned it.
I like how Jonathan keeps responding with: “Hmmm…” … “Hmmm”… “Hmmm…” I also like how he clarified that his experience is more of the transpersonal experience that St. Gregory describes.
I understand this completely. Been experiencing this a good minute. It will bring you down if you reject it.
Shine on your crazy Daemon
That made me smile lol
"My Daimon is morally neutral (is good and/or bad) because my Daimon doesn't care much about my comfort and safety" This seems to be Bernardo's reasoning, however there is a huge amount to unpack here...
Compare to Socrates whose Daimon 'pushed' him towards his death, so presumably didn't care about his comfort and safety either, but Socrates didn't think this meant the Daimon's bigger purposes were morally wrong. He trusted that although he didn't understand why it was right in the fullness of time it would prove to be.
Discernment of spirits is a very good practice to study.
I thought the same. Knowing good from evil is one thing but knowing good from almost good is another.
I have personally experienced something akin to Bernado's daemon. I think it is essentially a mild (perhaps even normal) form of dissociation, your logical analytical mind, the part of you that feels as if it 'wills' actions, realises that it does not create impulses, intuitions, motivations etc, so it looks AT them as foreign. From that point of view they look like a separate being, rather than part of yourself. This can also be experienced in lucid dreams; there is the conscious, willing 'you' and then other characters, all created by your mind and so a part of you, but in a way separate. I think such experiences may be more common in those who have a strong rational/logical streak, and so have a tendency to alienate everything outside of that part of themselves. This is possibly what happened to Jung - who had been a scientist of sorts and then experienced a splitting of his personality. Some of Jung's descriptions of the inner life closely match what Bernado describes, and are also quite similar to another scientist who experienced a sort of mystical breakdown, Emanuel Swedenborg. Taken to the extreme, this starts to look like schizophrenia - that voice in my head is not me, it's somebody else. Interestingly, engineers, or the offspring of engineers, are more likely than people in other professions to become schizophrenic (speaking as the offspring of two engineers...). I believe that Iain McGilchrist's work is especially relevant to all of this. However just what this means theologically is totally unclear to me.
By the way not trying to diagnose anybody or anything like that, like I say I've experienced similar stuff. I think that these experiences are probably quite common and normal, and may even point the way to a healthy integration.
Perfectly said. Training your daemon.
Exquisite analysis. Thank you !!!
Yes. Perhaps it’s to do with two hemispheres of the brain. One side is more linguistic and thus presumably the site of our conscious rational self while the other is more intuitive and less or non linguistic? However, perhaps the conscious rational side can at times be aware of the other hemisphere which is processing data but non linguistically? Just my crazy ideas as layperson.
Very materialistic
Very well put. I also experience frequent dissociation, and when I do, it's like you said: I'm all rational, and yet I feel totally detached from my body and like I'm on autopilot. Also, I just want to say something, not to quibble, but you said taken to the extreme, this mode can become schizophrenia. I would say psychosis, not schizophrenia, unless the psychosis becomes chronic and episodic, then at that point it's probably fair to say you're actually dealing with schizophrenia.
"My daemon is morally neutral", he says.
How could it be
Exactly...he says it is impersonal
@@icarovdl and yet he negotiates with it
I was confused listening to this point. There were plenty of times when he said it kicked him to do something different than he wanted. He said himself is the “evil” one out of the good/evil angle caricature which means that his daemon is pushing him away from evil. Maybe??? Idk. I might be caught in dualistic thinking. It just didn’t make sense in the way Bernardo talked about it and how it pushed him to do or not so certain things.
If anyone has answers please respond at me!
What does morally neutral mean? Does it mean amoral? Does it mean not “good” or “bad”?
I can see things being morally neutral, like choosing to brush your teeth or not. Brushing your teeth means you’re taking care of your body which is small good. Is there a difference between this idea (that there are “goods” pointing us to the Good which we should pursue) and saying an action is moral/amoral/morally neutral??
Thank you.
@@ckokomo808 yes. I believe he meant amoral as in dosnt have a moral stance on things that people generally have a moral stance on. Brushing your teeth is a neutral act, however other acts are very much not neutral.... often people i meet who talk about moral neutrality or are against duality, Don't seem to understand that something like a rape for example is bad, it's evil, it's definitely not morally neutral and it's not the same as Brushing ones teeth.. that where the whole neutrality argument falls apart for me. That's why i came to the conclusion that God gave us the bible to tell us how it is because we humans can justify just about anything.
I also have this experience of something being in me that is not me. It calls me to things like love, joy, to face my fears with love, to let the scars of my heart to melt away, to climb out of a cramped shell to a more full existence as a person, and to union with others and with God. This seems to be completely morally good, and as a christian, I'm very inclined to think that this is the Holy Spirit. It's sad that others live with these "daemons" that have to be described as morally neutral or even evil...
Ah, so you worship self lol
Yes, i was thinking the same thing. I have the same thing that is very much invested in my well-being, sometimes that includes the molding of character like whenGod refers to us as clay on the potters wheel, we aren't promised that we will have no troubles but the Holy Spirit is called our helper and comforter in the Bible, i believe that this is what that presence and 'being' i have with me is. It's not morally neutral though in my experience... before I became a Christian I believe I had something else pursuing me though, before I was Christian i suspected it was bad but i didn't have the language to explain it or understand what it was.
Well, people have all sorts of different personalities. Why wouldn't daemons?
I respect and admire how he loyally describes his experience as he experiences it.
But there’s no such thing as morally neutral
So much wisdom in 15 min! I love what he said about the ancestors, I very much feel their influence and "push" too.
LOL Thank you so much for gathering this in a clip!!!! :D Hahahaha, this is so hilarious!! This is EXACTLY how I experience my "Daemon"! :D
First time I’ve heard my plight explained so thoroughly
“It turns my mental inner life into sheer hell” - that’s a demon my friend. Listen to the words that are coming out of your mouth. ☦️
It feels like the Holy Spirit never makes me feel plain bad. There is conviction, but always that invitation to live the Kingdom life. Sometimes when I have felt that “sheer hell,” I have actually asked God to protect me from evil / demons, and that feeling immediately went away. I have my own anxieties, and sometimes I spiral a bit-I know part of being human is to deal with intense stress and confusion-but when I can’t reason away or soothe the “sheer hell,” prayer has often freed me from it.
Demons appear the way you perceive them..They are half of the human psyche and you can't deny them. When you do deny them you deny your Shadow self IE repressed feelings emotions etc. That's when they'll hurt you
Its greek language my friend, daimon/daemon/genius is synonym of guardian angel, he use this word in the way platonists used it not as christian demon, Jonathan understood this and even made a joke about it
A demon is a bad habit ask addicts. It takes them over like a parasite.
@@jgarciajr82 That bad habit may be a demon but..When you ignore that demon the addiction will persist.. demons are the dark aspects of our psyche. They're there you can't deny them you have to accept them and face them. They create and destroy. Accept them and accept yourself 100%
Steiner believed that the Double could become an obstacle to spiritual development if it is not properly integrated with the physical body. He taught that the Double can sometimes become autonomous and work against the individual's spiritual progress, leading to psychological and physical imbalances.
He discussed the Double in many of his lectures, particularly in his lectures on Anthroposophical Psychology, Anthroposophical Spiritual Science, and Anthroposophical Spiritual Psychology. Some specific lectures where he discussed the Double include:
"The Double and the Shadows in Human Life" (GA 57)
"The Double and the Etheric Body" (GA 143)
"The Double and the Ego" (GA 178)
"The Double and the Spiritual Senses" (GA 219)
then of course there is Dostoyevsky's Double!
Cool discussion! I was also pleasantly surprised to discover someone who defends Schopenhauer (my fav)--an incredibly unpopular stance that begs to be defended honestly. Would love to hear these two discuss Julian Jaynes, who has a rather deep angle on the daemon, relying on Dodds, Snell and others, tracing words like 'daemon', 'genius' (roman tutelary spirit), 'thumos' etc back through their evolving meanings
Excellent.... thanks 🙏.
The Person I usually sense is the Holy Spirit, and I am so blessed in His presence. But every now and then, I seem to catch a glimpse of someone else who is helping me experience the Holy Spirit. I think they may always be with me but usually only directing my attention to God. Lately, it feels like a whisper into my thoughts to make a good choice. Those thoughts are quieter than most of my other ones but distinctive. It feels separate from me but positive. I believe I feel negative beings as well, which manifest in various ways, but that is how I experience the positive beings.
I feel Jonathan is speaking of psychological processes with a religious language , I feel Bernardo is trying to rationalise his experience using the same religious / symbolic language as Johnathan. Only for me it kinda seems like Bernardo might suffer something real with the demonic, and he is trying to rationalise using symbolic language. I would seek out a priest with experience with the demonic if I were Bernardo.
It’s a reference to Socrates, who claimed to have an inner voice or “personal divinity” which deterred him from acting immorally. Socrates referred to this voice as his “Daemon” which at the time meant simply a disembodied intelligence.
Keep in mind that angels themselves are disembodied intelligences, which is why Jonathan calls it a guardian angel. I think we all experience an inner voice which deters us from acting immorally, we just call is a conscience - dangerously close to the word conscious.
Bernardo is characterizing his conscience as not prioritizing his physical well-being, and as we all know acting righteously does not always improve our physical circumstances. I see no issue with this.
I agree with Dexter. I would advise against throwing the demonic card into situations like this. Could possibly quite damaging.
I love the idea of the daemon being the same as the guardian angel. It allows us to talk about angels without sounding like a crazy people.
@@JamesDixonMusic I agree one should have respect for the demonic card. But I reacted to two things. 1) He made a major change in his life due to it. 2) He got "punished" by it, by having strong anxiety, and other negative thoughts; this sounds like demonic oppression. It may not be, but since it has had such an impact on him I would not rule it out, and I would have sought out a priest with experience of this matters.
That sounds too much like projection & interpretation on your part, friend. He’s speaking of psychological issues, period.
Pink Floyd, “You lock the door and throw away the key. There’s someone in my head, but it’s not me.”
That's what happens to people who use drugs.
Jonathan, I want to say that I don't think that the fact you see Christ in your guardian angel's voice is from you Protestant background. I'm an Eastern Orthodox from my birth and I feel the same thing. This inner voice tells me to do something but I usually respond to Christ. And I'm aware that it is not Christ who is talking to me but my guardian angel.
The conclusion I got (this is my personal view so I may say some heresies) is that in a way Christ and the guardian angel are united in one. It is like in a monastic story where a Father said that he prefers to be an hermit than to serve people in a monastery. His explanation for this was that in Heaven there is one will while people have an infinite number of wills.
So I'm thinking that the voice of the guardian angel is the same with the voice of Christ; I see as a unity between the will of the guardian angel and Christ. I'm not sure if it makes any sense.
Would it make sense to you if I say that this is how it gets communicated to you through the divine hierarchy? Just a thought.
It would not make sense if Christ and guardian angle did not agree, we differentiate God as those layers of hierarchy, it helps us understand, but angle is personification of Gods will it can't have it's own opinion.
I feel pushed clearly with crash of caos in my physical world and I have to go to silence and prayer to ask god what he wants for me as his servant. I do have clear that Jesus is my lord and king, and I have contact with him since I seek him very often.
Glad to know I'm not alone. Waking up to your own sinful nature is difficult.
Fascinating stuff here!!! 🙏 Will check out full talk thankyou.
I had a leopard hunt my consciousness down and play with it like a fresh pray.
It challenged me to explore realms and open doors. Pressing my ego with an excited mania. There was something always just slightly out of reach....
I was going it alone. I needed a true church.
What do you think it’s alluding to when you say “open doors”?
So there is a push, and a pull, but i would also add there is a trick. As in St Christopher kind of trick.
Somehow it could be like the ruling planets of the Roman Zodiac, not totally guardian spirits but high spirits that drive you to behave a certain way and entices you in things you didn't know you're interested with
Thank you both. I wonder if the "push and pull" guidance corresponds to approach & avoid response and its manifestations in our different constitutions or personality traits or preferences?
Thank you for this Jon! Loving all the proximity support! 🫱🏾🫲🏼
Any good sources (especially from the Fathers) on how to discern the spirits?
My personal relationship with this isn’t exactly as described here. It’s more of a symbiotic relationship and bond, but the force of nature is accurate in description, and the acceptance that this is a being alive for many lifetimes beyond my own is something I often contemplate. Being chosen, is an honor. Regardless of what, or who, chooses us.
He also used the term "I negotiated with it" yeah man, careful
A deamon is not a demon. The daemon is part of you and it doesn’t have the same perceptions of earth as we do. It does push you towards your highest good but it doesn’t always look like it as good and bad are relative to your over all purpose and best interest. This man knows what he’s talking about. I’ve experienced it for myself and it’s not something to take lightly but isn’t by any means evil. Just not understood in a way most people would be able to. “Negotiating” with it is more akin to trying to help it realize the earth experience isn’t always a pleasant one and to go easy on our poor mortal body/ minds lol
@@CrossroadNetwork bs, it is a freaking demon
I relate to this man, feeling constantly pulled towards things that are damaging to myself in the long run. There's no counter voice though from my experience, only "me". Sounds rather bleak doesn't it!
If there is no shadow of turning in the Divine Mind (James 1:17), then there are no dissociated aspects within it either. The Incarnation is the revelation of a God (Father, Son and Spirit) fully associated with Their creation, as well as Themselves. All of existence is fully known by God in Christ. He’s the Light of the world-what God knows about Themselves and us perfectly within His hypostatic union. In Him, all is illuminated, associated with Him from before all things.
Bernardo Kastrup Thanks for all your deep insights, I admire your work! One question remains however: Isn't Nature ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS working through (a) you, whether you see/like/allow it or not? You assume that you can negotiate with the daemon but isn't this inner process not simply the ego-bounded inside interpretation (of this so-called limited/dissociated mind) of Nature unfolding? Everything rises up spontaneously in the empty spaceousness of Mind as I see it, including ideas of negotiation between a little and a big mind.
Did shrooms once and it was cool until i was alone and was twisting and turning in my bed trying to remove spirit from my chest. It has been there...holding tightly.
Dude got me stepping in the ring and boxing. Getting my ass kicked. I dont even know what im doing. But it wants me to do it. I cant even explain it to other boxers. This is my daemon.
Principalities?
Praise God
I hope Bernardo can answer if he reads comments: Does Bernardo's Daimon propose actions only (push) or does it like Socrates' daimon also prevent actions (oppose)?
I liked this interview. I feel like the conversation got a little hung up on semantics but I do feel whole heartedly we have divine cursors and/or precursors. I am experiencing the push/pull on my own path. Until I found this channel, i always referred to what i now understand to be the symbolic as Truth and Lie. However, i have difficulty living in the grey zone of dialectics so thats where I struggle in making connections. I dont intend to be but my brain is stuck in black and white thinking. Actively in DBT rn so hopefully i can start to venture down that path as well!
I’ve heard the theory about the many competing voices in a human kinda of like a parliament of beings arguing over what the body should do. Maybe that’s what the we are legion part of the Bible was talking about.
This man is just lightly insane. And yes I am an Orthodox Christian.
Who? Pageau or the other guy
@@MangyPL Not Pageau, I was talking about Bernardo Kastrup.
So is any religious experience according to medical science so what. Any perspective can make any opposite understanding as insane. No dialogue can be created if you just assume that others are insane.
I know this is off topic but what is that art to the right of Jonathan’s shoulder?
I believe it’s his icon of Jonah. He posts pictures of art he’s working on, on his instagram.
The Orthodox Christian terminology is objectively true.
Whoever uses Jungian/ancient Greek incoherent terms will always be confused and confusing.
The Church is the only safe haven. Outside of her, one is bound to be led astray.
My Daemon has a name: OCD
Mine too. And it is terrible.
He seems to be equating his own safety with things being morally write or wrong. Which is not how God and Christ see it. Not exactly. So I can't really get a sense for what his 'daemon' is telling him to do other than it being against his own personal sense of comfort. Though that he equates his own comfort with good and evil may speak to why this 'daemon' deals with him so.. harshly. The man himself is admitting his own views on what he considers moral.
Then again, I'd really like to as him about that aspect more specifically.
Matt Daemon
Can i ask why Catholics and Orthodox in general pray to Saints. My understanding is that Saints are people who pursued God in an exceptional way but I'm confused as to why you would pray to them as opposed to praying directly to God or Jesus. I'm pretty sure it says in the Bible not to consult the dead but instead to go to the one who brings life? I don't mean to be rude or argumentative but i like some of the Orthodox conversations but there's some things about orthodoxy i can't reconcile with my understanding of the Bible.
The Saints are not dead. As Jesus said: "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”- Mark 12:27
We pray to the saints for intercession just as one can ask their pastor to pray for them, you can in general ask someone closer to God to pray for you.
@@superroydude thank you for your answer
@@wondering_stars_in_oz8462 It's no problem
@@superroydude While I understand this part of things, Jesus said the only way to the Father is through him. He didn't name Moses. He didn't name Abraham nor any one else. So while even sinners can recognize someone who has gotten very close to God, Christ is closest and is the ONLY WAY. By his own words. What makes you so confident you can side step these specific declarations?
Certainly I see how taking tips from someone who also navigated the maze of sin, but that's different than what Catholics and Orthodox do.
I like to describe my Daemon as me with out any ego whatsoever. I would describe the daemon as indifferent rather than "impersonal". The daemon is far from a guardian angel. A very simplistic way to envision it is, the daemon is a point between you and the Creator. A christian might call it Jesus. An occultist might call it his Daemon. Carl Jung called his Philemon.
My Daemon is full of bad intentions. She is an Angel of Death.
This sounds like what Maximus calls the providential logos of a being
No, it sounds like a demon.
“…a man’s character is his daemon.” -Heraclitus Oh boy. I think they are a bit off. Relax, live your life, have fun, dance, express yourself. You can live a life. The daemon/daimon can be negotiated with. It is a very subtle cat and mouse game. You have to live backwards for a bit once you become aware of it and it makes its presence known. The Neoplatonists could invoke them physically it seems. Some are more intelligent and powerful than others. And there is not just one type. What I am describing are imaginal transpersonal beings it seems. More than one can attach themselves to you. It’s fun to play with until you see the puppet it can make you. You can be robotic, but you aren’t a robot. It’s an aspect of our minds. One we call the unconscious today. It is interesting to me how someone with Johnathan’s tradition colors everything with their version of reality. Everyone has their own slice of the pie. Everyone has their own view of things. It is a sensational subject, but one I can personally say is quite real. It can make things very uncomfortable. The materialists say this is a form of madness, which may be true in a way. You can go quite insane living like a pinball. It is a most powerful ally. It amplifies your intention. It can seem evil or angelic. In reality, it’s more of a shadow. Neutral.
How can you even identify that "daemon" as something with an identity? I always experience my impulses and my thoughts as individual thoughts in themselves and is up to me to judge them. Sometimes it becomes super clear to me the procedence of these thoughts, and I think: "this is totally what my brother would tell me to do", etc. The only way I've learned to judge them is through the "alignment" to God that Pageau always speaks about. Otherway I would have to use the "oriental" aproach of just taking them all as the "universal mind" Bernardo mentioned. I would most of the time struggle to know what is mine, and what is not.
So you have this entire tradition with perfectly coherent terminology and understanding of the spiritual realities you're describing... but you choose not to use that terminology and force some other, foreign and imprecise terminology. If you have to make an effort to avoid calling something what it is, you might be doing it wrong.
"The other little beings Bernado cares about" I understand what he is trying to convey here, but probably not the best way to word it, some people would say this is telling in how you view yourself in relation to others.
He’s speaking with hyperbole, why does everyone have to take everything literally?
SOOOOO greatful you posted this! I didn't know if I was possessed and damned... because it acts for things that are good for me (rarely) or if I was schizoeffected.
The jury on this is out (because it acts not exactly like any religion (i.e. Mara / Maya)
At any rate... thank you.
Daemon is not a guardian angel
I can relate to this. People in the healthcare system think that I am psychotic.
Jonathan has a major adhd daemon 😆
daimon is morally neutral because it's life force itself. condemn or absolve the daimon, and you condemn or absolve life itself
So, basically, you pissed your Guardian Angel so much he decided to start whipping you in the right direction... now we know Angels can get desperate...
For any inquisitors who read this comment, calm your Malleus Maleficarums, is a joke. I am quite sure Angels have a sense of humor too...
Its like he is talking about the Id as described by Freud.
multiple daemons some good some not.
Sounds more like a demon!
it is technology
Delusion lol
Only according to your circumstantial interpretation…
this daemon you talk about, couldn't that be your anima? Our ego or persona is only concerned with the transient worldly matters, this other part wants us to wake up from this pursuit of pleasure or will to power and seek that which is real, beyond the senses. Our immortal origin out of time and space, the absolute. It's as if you're dreaming, and the sounds from waking reality start inhabiting your dream, taking shape and form in a way to disturb your dream, manifesting the unmanifested which will lead to awakening. Your creative output is a one way filter which tries to describe that which cannot be described, the unknowable. It can only be attained once your perception is shifted, once you focus the beam of light which is dispersed on the transient. You are like a projector of your inner light, and it constantly seeks its own true reflection, without the filter, beyond shape and form.
Bernardo is nihilistic and bitter. There's something sinister there. He seems depressed.
Watch the video Introduction to Angels and Demons that JulienHimself has on his channel. Very close to this.
We have teo hemispheres, they operate individuelly. You are two.
Two
You’re meant to learn how to harness both towards growth & shared good though.
Yeah everyone has a dæmon, it is not a demon.
He talking about your inner heathen/psychopath
This is a joke, right? The "impersonal" beings aren't daemons, they're demons. Lord have mercy.
Look into what daemon means. Just because you associate it with the word "demon" doesn't mean it has anything to do with that. Bernardo ses it as a metaphor to refer to the impersonal Will of nature, in the sense that Schopenhauer used the term.
@@Paakku97Impersonal will? This is a contradiction of terms. Natures are instantiated in persons.
@@Paakku97I appreciate your kind approach considering how wrong you might think I am. But, what I wrote isn't a variation on the word/concept fallacy, like you suggest. I actually think he's describing demons. You probably disagree, that's ok. God bless.
What's the matter with this Bernardo guy? *Why is he saying his demon is morally neutral and he listens to it?!?*
He is speaking of daemons, not demons.
He's not Orthodox and he is definitely experiencing prelest and demonic influence unfortunately
English word versus Greek word. Same word
@@annalynn9325 No, there is in fact a difference in meaning.
Demon refers to a psychic entity with an evil agenda, malevolent and afflicting.
Daemon, or Daimon (the correct Greek transliteration), is morally neutral. It doesn't mean that a person possessed by a Daemon will behave in a good manner, but it tells more about our value judgment than the Daemon's agenda, which is in fact none.
While both are possessing, a Demon is a bad spirit while a Daemon is a neutral force.
He is very clear about what kind of possession he is experiencing.
@@namero999 The word demon comes from daemon, etymologically the same. What that tells me is they refer to the same being understood differently between early Christians and the ancient Greeks from whence the word came. It should be no surprise that speaking of a demon as morally neutral rather than evil would come from someone who, well, has a demon.
Frenchie souunds a bit fruity TBH.