A new friend recently told me about Kallistos Ware so i decided to search RUclips for him/his teachings. I found this discussion and love it! My question/thought about universal salvation and/or freewill is that if love "makes no record of wrong" and God IS love (love is His very being), and if God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself on the cross, isn't the eternal work finished? His love wins us. Does freewill only affect our lives as humans in the here and now? By embracing the reality of His unconditional love for us all as made in His image, and no condemnation can separate us, then are we blessed to take part in His Divine nature now or refuse to during our lives to our great joy or loss here in this time world?
I just don’t see how Universalism being true would undermine free will. I mean, nobody in this world can choose to live a sinless life because nobody apart from Jesus has ever lived a sinless life. Does that mean we don’t have free will if we can't choose to live sinless lives?
Well we didn't have the choice to be born, and we don't even have the choice to choose our destiny, God pre ordains some, the called that will come to him in this age and be the lights in this world. God chose this before any of us were ever born and before the world was made for that matter. If we really sit and think about what the potter and the clay means, this would help us to understand that God did create some to escape the second death, whereas all the others were ordained to that corrective punishment, and this was all God's choosing according to the counsel of God own will without consulting any of us about what we will. And because these were chosen for corrective punishment, there is no way that God will put them into everlasting torments, no way...
I totally believe that the doctrine that man has a freewill that overrides God's divine will spawns so many other false biblical beliefs. Just think, by believing in man's freewill, you cannot believe that Jesus is the saviour of the world.
@@rdaleyj1 I'd be interested to know what you mean by "believing in man's freewill, you cannot believe that Jesus is the saviour of the world"? At first glance, it seems to me that the opposite makes more sense: what is the point of Christ's incarnation and death if God could've simply unilaterally altered the wills of humans towards salvation?
Consider: Man is created in the image of God in these respects that are each eternal eg life, free-will, reason, and love, faith, hope. It is by these innate traits that he has a will to live freely in love and knows in whom is man's hope. As Jesus is begotten perfectly like and one with our Father whom he sees, so too, we in his image shall be like him when we see him as he is, for like begets like and Spirit begets spirit. All are drawn to Jesus by the goodness of God which is his consummate love for the world that salts upon as tongues with flaming sharp embers, renewing the spirit of the mind, restoring all creation, which too sings this news, with the move of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus is it's Lord, the way through whom all came into being and to whom all repents, reconciled at the cross, as spirits caused to be weakened by lesser deceitful and destructive gods, through hope being forgiven ignorance. For, by the nature of God's reason to design and plan, creation was made good, with the perpetuating grace of love, working all things together toward this good, that is, everlasting love. Jesus, who was over the deep of creation and by his command currents were all moved into forms, who also walked upon water and calmed the sea, who moves even the hearts of kings of whom he is King, and who has commanded love; has he made one heart in his own image that shall not love, freely in its will and life, for and with God and all the world, even the enemy, as also for itself. For God is for us, and, even the opposing spirit is told this that it shall worship and serve in order. Just as Jesus prayed we be one and said "you shall love", we shall love as one, being first loved. Love is just, to correct injustices, to defend and deliver, to cast away fear and to comfort, to save; and, without free-will, existence would not be just, and we would not be in his image. Nothing above or below nor in this world he has conquered in love shall separate us from this love; not death, not his death, not our own death, for, death brings forth life, appointed forever, resurrected, reestablished, judged with its own judgment which shall forgive as forgiven, conquering sin at work within, set free forever with this and these truths, known in the conscience by faith, and with all the eternal that is in the heart, the temple of the Lord that the Spirit of his word searches and knows, being made in him who is with us, so that God's love may be all that is in all, and always in his image, which is love. Love is faithful, true, believing, relating, forgiving and giving. When you love, you are repenting. Repent. Love!
I read a long time ago when I was studying different religions that the greek orthodox church believed in universalism not sure if that means they all believe it but I was impressed with that because it shows more love, more mercy and more grace it makes Christ even more worthy of my praise I'm a Catholic but I love my orthodox brothers and sisters and its all about love and the 2 great commandments attest to that.
That's a false analogy. The Christian Church and Scripture do not give us the license to hope that biblical teaching is wrong. Eternal punishment is not medicinal, it is penal.
In what way is it a false analogy, and that Church and Scripture don't give us license to hope for the salvation of all? Understanding the Greek meaning behind the words you read throughout Scripture will help you tremendously, rather than reading it through the lens of tradition. God didn't create us knowing in advance that we would choose to make a decision that would damn us forever. Not only does this make no sense but it would make God way worse than any of those he would cosign to such a fate. God's very will and his pleasure is to reconcile all of his creation. (Isaiah 55:11/1 Timothy 2:4)@@TruthBeTold7
Hope. A far stronger word than meets the eye. Not merely wishful thinking or optimism or fingers crossed and try to focus more on potentially good outcomes than equally likely devastating ones. Hope is the sober and ultimate extrapolation in all things of God's love and goodness. Hope is the posture we adopt towards life when we become personally acquainted and thereby convinced of the character of God as love, when perfect love drives out fear. As Brad Jersak would say, "my hope is built on nothing less / than Jesus and his righteousness." Hope built on Jesus is no mere fancy; it is the center of gravity and ground of being for all that exists. And so hope is much less like the daydream of what life will be like if all goes well, and much more like the discovery of the law of gravity at the center of things, that holds everything together, and the stable confidence which this law provides for predicting and making decisions in daily life. Except we can count on God's constant goodness even more than we can count on gravity. What a delight this Hope College graduate had watching his former professor from St Vladimir's seminary reprise the gentle and inviting words of Metropolitan Kallistos, "the Gandalf of Orthodoxy," as an old friend once put it.
Kallistos Ware was an unbelieving blasphemer. He assumes a higher morality than God, thinking eternal punishment is immoral. These people hope Christ was wrong when he taught eternal punishment. There are serious implications to hoping universal is true. Read by article on universalism. The link is in my Community section.
@@TruthBeTold7 brother, please summarize for me your understanding of the Gospel, the "good news" of Jesus Christ. I submit that infernalist Christianity can never be anything other than BAD NEWS. It's like Futurama: "Good news everyone! The vast majority of you are doomed forever and will suffer endlessly!! Hallelujah Jesus Christ, the savior of the super-elite!" If your version of the good news is that the vast majority of humanity will be damned to endless horrific torment, then I submit that the "good news" of Jesus Christ is a sick joke, the universe is an undeniable tragedy, God never should have created a thing if he has an ounce of compassion (because really, what is wrong with the free will of the human heart, if the majority of humans can't seem to use it to find their true cause and fulfillment, but free will leads most people to damnation? who created the heart?), and ultimately, Satan has won, having irrevocably marred God's creation beyond repair. Every lost soul is a victory for Satan. Will the sovereign and almighty God be content to reap a 10% harvest of the souls he has sown? Can we count him the winner of the soccer game if the score is Satan 9, God 1? But yeah, he only meant to score one point, and Satan's 9 don't count for anything, and besides that, God will beat up Satan after the game and declare himself the winner, because he only ever meant to score 1 point. And in the end, God shall be all in all... or rather, 90% of his universe will be in quarantine, while the remaining 10%, cut off from their own friends and family, in full knowledge of the damnation of those whom they loved, will sing the praises of the satanic tyrant God who shaped the pottery, and dashed it all to the ground, in a show of his divine power... God is worse than Satan then, a petty tyrant unworthy of worship, and the rebels against him have more conscience and morality. You go ahead and hail your Satan-tyrant God. I will praise the God whose mercy endures forever.
I think universalism doesn't contradict free will. Let's imagine a closed box. When i throw it, i am unable to know where every molecule in it will land. But i still know were the box will land. Free will might lead to a little bit of uncertainty, but assuming that it could reverse the direction of the primary cause goes way too far in my opinion
Another thing that people who use the free will defense for hell don't realize is that if hell can be freely chosen then ultimately it cannot be that bad, otherwise no one would actually choose it, or at the very least they wouldn't continue to choose it. For someone to choose hell they must at the very least consider it preferable to heaven.
Kallistos Ware was an unbelieving blasphemer. He assumes a higher morality than God, thinking eternal punishment is immoral. These people hope Christ was wrong when he taught eternal punishment. There are serious implications to hoping universal is true. Read by article on universalism. The link is in my Community section.
Christ did NOT teach eternal punishment. Read a LITERAL, accurate translation of the original Greek text of the NT, not a traditional translation like the NIV or the KJV. It clearly indicates temporary, corrective punishment. "Eternal" in English translations is an improper translation from the Greek word "aionion", which means "related to an age" or age-lasting". It comes from the root word "aion", which means "an age". A word that comes from a root word cannot have a greater meaning than thge root word. An age is not an eternity. The Greek word that does mean "eternal" is "aidios", but that word is NEVER used in the Greek Bible text to describe the duration of afterlife punishment. The Greek word for "retribution" or "vengeance" is "timoria". This type of punishment is meant to satisfy the offended party and is what eternal punishment would be. However, "timoria" is NEVER used in the original NT text to describe afterlife punishment. The Greek word that IS used to describe afterlife punishment is "kolasin". Kolasin means "chastisement" or "correction". Corrective punishments are intended to improve the behavior and character of the offender. The word actually originates from the act of pruning trees and shrubs, cutting way the bad portions to make them healthier. Corrective punishments do not last forever, because what would be the point of trying to improve one's behavior and character through punishment if the punishment lasts forever? Some Pharisees during the time of Jesus did believe in eternal punishment. In Greek texts from that time, this was described as "eirgmos aidios" (which means "eternal imprisonment) or "timorion adialeipton" (which means "endless torment"). However, in the original draft of the NT, Jesus described afterlife punishment of the unsaved as "aionion kolasin", which means "age-lasting chastisement". If Jesus taught eternal punishment, why did he describe it as age-lasting chastisement? Further, The Greek word from the NT that was translated into "torment" was "bazanos". Bazanos literally means "touchstone". A touchstone was used in ancient processes for refining precious metals. The metal ore would be put into to a crucible of fire (lake of fire) and sulphur would be added (this is what brimstone is) and the impurities, the dross, would be burned off, leaving the precious metal behind. During the refining process, the metal would be removed from the fire and struck against the touchstone and it would leave a streak. Based on the color of the streak, the refiner would know how pure the metal was at that point. If "torment" was about endless torture, why does it come from a Greek word for something that is part of purification process? It seems clear to me from reading the literal translations of the Greek text that those who have accepted Jesus as their Savior in their physical life will escape the afterlife punishment but those who have not will need to go through it. Depending on the person, it may be bad and may last a long time, but it is not eternal. Eventually all will accept Christ as their Savior. As is says in Philippians 2:10-11 (a literal translation form the original text) - "that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, 11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.". This means EVERYONE will acclaim (joyfully and publicly proclaim) that Jesus is Lord. As Paul put it in 1 Timothy 4:10 - "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." God bless.
Universalism Is the trap of Satan These people don’t want to be accountable. Or as they think, Minimally accountable. Universalism reduces the need for ascetic practices and the gospel itself . The guy talking has probably never done a prostration in his life.
There is no consensus over universalism, it might be true, it might not be true. But there is nothing wrong with hoping that universalism is true, in fact I think we should all hope that all will be saved in the end. But believing for certain that universalism is true is problematic. We should be ambiguous I guess.
May we ALL be hopeful and pray to that end....
A new friend recently told me about Kallistos Ware so i decided to search RUclips for him/his teachings. I found this discussion and love it! My question/thought about universal salvation and/or freewill is that if love "makes no record of wrong" and God IS love (love is His very being), and if God was IN Christ reconciling the world to Himself on the cross, isn't the eternal work finished? His love wins us. Does freewill only affect our lives as humans in the here and now? By embracing the reality of His unconditional love for us all as made in His image, and no condemnation can separate us, then are we blessed to take part in His Divine nature now or refuse to during our lives to our great joy or loss here in this time world?
I just don’t see how Universalism being true would undermine free will. I mean, nobody in this world can choose to live a sinless life because nobody apart from Jesus has ever lived a sinless life. Does that mean we don’t have free will if we can't choose to live sinless lives?
Well we didn't have the choice to be born, and we don't even have the choice to choose our destiny, God pre ordains some, the called that will come to him in this age and be the lights in this world.
God chose this before any of us were ever born and before the world was made for that matter.
If we really sit and think about what the potter and the clay means, this would help us to understand that God did create some to escape the second death, whereas all the others were ordained to that corrective punishment, and this was all God's choosing according to the counsel of God own will without consulting any of us about what we will.
And because these were chosen for corrective punishment, there is no way that God will put them into everlasting torments, no way...
I totally believe that the doctrine that man has a freewill that overrides God's divine will spawns so many other false biblical beliefs.
Just think, by believing in man's freewill, you cannot believe that Jesus is the saviour of the world.
@@rdaleyj1 I'd be interested to know what you mean by "believing in man's freewill, you cannot believe that Jesus is the saviour of the world"? At first glance, it seems to me that the opposite makes more sense: what is the point of Christ's incarnation and death if God could've simply unilaterally altered the wills of humans towards salvation?
Consider:
Man is created in the image of God in these respects that are each eternal eg life, free-will, reason, and love, faith, hope.
It is by these innate traits that he has a will to live freely in love and knows in whom is man's hope.
As Jesus is begotten perfectly like and one with our Father whom he sees, so too, we in his image shall be like him when we see him as he is, for like begets like and Spirit begets spirit.
All are drawn to Jesus by the goodness of God which is his consummate love for the world that salts upon as tongues with flaming sharp embers, renewing the spirit of the mind, restoring all creation, which too sings this news, with the move of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus is it's Lord, the way through whom all came into being and to whom all repents, reconciled at the cross, as spirits caused to be weakened by lesser deceitful and destructive gods, through hope being forgiven ignorance.
For, by the nature of God's reason to design and plan, creation was made good, with the perpetuating grace of love, working all things together toward this good, that is, everlasting love.
Jesus, who was over the deep of creation and by his command currents were all moved into forms, who also walked upon water and calmed the sea, who moves even the hearts of kings of whom he is King, and who has commanded love; has he made one heart in his own image that shall not love, freely in its will and life, for and with God and all the world, even the enemy, as also for itself. For God is for us, and, even the opposing spirit is told this that it shall worship and serve in order.
Just as Jesus prayed we be one and said "you shall love", we shall love as one, being first loved.
Love is just, to correct injustices, to defend and deliver, to cast away fear and to comfort, to save; and, without free-will, existence would not be just, and we would not be in his image.
Nothing above or below nor in this world he has conquered in love shall separate us from this love; not death, not his death, not our own death, for, death brings forth life, appointed forever, resurrected, reestablished, judged with its own judgment which shall forgive as forgiven, conquering sin at work within, set free forever with this and these truths, known in the conscience by faith, and with all the eternal that is in the heart, the temple of the Lord that the Spirit of his word searches and knows, being made in him who is with us, so that God's love may be all that is in all, and always in his image, which is love.
Love is faithful, true, believing, relating, forgiving and giving.
When you love, you are repenting. Repent. Love!
I read a long time ago when I was studying different religions that the greek orthodox church believed in universalism not sure if that means they all believe it but I was impressed with that because it shows more love, more mercy and more grace it makes Christ even more worthy of my praise I'm a Catholic but I love my orthodox brothers and sisters and its all about love and the 2 great commandments attest to that.
Great insight, thank you
Interesting, thanks for sharing.
Very well said! I saw that lecture. I agree he’s a hopeful universalist as was Hans Ur Von Balthasar
That's the best example of Universalism, that medicine can cause pain but that eventually it heals the person completely.
That's a false analogy. The Christian Church and Scripture do not give us the license to hope that biblical teaching is wrong. Eternal punishment is not medicinal, it is penal.
In what way is it a false analogy, and that Church and Scripture don't give us license to hope for the salvation of all? Understanding the Greek meaning behind the words you read throughout Scripture will help you tremendously, rather than reading it through the lens of tradition. God didn't create us knowing in advance that we would choose to make a decision that would damn us forever. Not only does this make no sense but it would make God way worse than any of those he would cosign to such a fate. God's very will and his pleasure is to reconcile all of his creation. (Isaiah 55:11/1 Timothy 2:4)@@TruthBeTold7
Hope. A far stronger word than meets the eye. Not merely wishful thinking or optimism or fingers crossed and try to focus more on potentially good outcomes than equally likely devastating ones. Hope is the sober and ultimate extrapolation in all things of God's love and goodness. Hope is the posture we adopt towards life when we become personally acquainted and thereby convinced of the character of God as love, when perfect love drives out fear. As Brad Jersak would say, "my hope is built on nothing less / than Jesus and his righteousness." Hope built on Jesus is no mere fancy; it is the center of gravity and ground of being for all that exists. And so hope is much less like the daydream of what life will be like if all goes well, and much more like the discovery of the law of gravity at the center of things, that holds everything together, and the stable confidence which this law provides for predicting and making decisions in daily life. Except we can count on God's constant goodness even more than we can count on gravity.
What a delight this Hope College graduate had watching his former professor from St Vladimir's seminary reprise the gentle and inviting words of Metropolitan Kallistos, "the Gandalf of Orthodoxy," as an old friend once put it.
Kallistos Ware was an unbelieving blasphemer. He assumes a higher morality than God, thinking eternal punishment is immoral. These people hope Christ was wrong when he taught eternal punishment. There are serious implications to hoping universal is true. Read by article on universalism. The link is in my Community section.
@@TruthBeTold7 brother, please summarize for me your understanding of the Gospel, the "good news" of Jesus Christ. I submit that infernalist Christianity can never be anything other than BAD NEWS. It's like Futurama: "Good news everyone! The vast majority of you are doomed forever and will suffer endlessly!! Hallelujah Jesus Christ, the savior of the super-elite!" If your version of the good news is that the vast majority of humanity will be damned to endless horrific torment, then I submit that the "good news" of Jesus Christ is a sick joke, the universe is an undeniable tragedy, God never should have created a thing if he has an ounce of compassion (because really, what is wrong with the free will of the human heart, if the majority of humans can't seem to use it to find their true cause and fulfillment, but free will leads most people to damnation? who created the heart?), and ultimately, Satan has won, having irrevocably marred God's creation beyond repair. Every lost soul is a victory for Satan. Will the sovereign and almighty God be content to reap a 10% harvest of the souls he has sown? Can we count him the winner of the soccer game if the score is Satan 9, God 1? But yeah, he only meant to score one point, and Satan's 9 don't count for anything, and besides that, God will beat up Satan after the game and declare himself the winner, because he only ever meant to score 1 point. And in the end, God shall be all in all... or rather, 90% of his universe will be in quarantine, while the remaining 10%, cut off from their own friends and family, in full knowledge of the damnation of those whom they loved, will sing the praises of the satanic tyrant God who shaped the pottery, and dashed it all to the ground, in a show of his divine power... God is worse than Satan then, a petty tyrant unworthy of worship, and the rebels against him have more conscience and morality. You go ahead and hail your Satan-tyrant God. I will praise the God whose mercy endures forever.
I think universalism doesn't contradict free will. Let's imagine a closed box. When i throw it, i am unable to know where every molecule in it will land. But i still know were the box will land. Free will might lead to a little bit of uncertainty, but assuming that it could reverse the direction of the primary cause goes way too far in my opinion
Another thing that people who use the free will defense for hell don't realize is that if hell can be freely chosen then ultimately it cannot be that bad, otherwise no one would actually choose it, or at the very least they wouldn't continue to choose it. For someone to choose hell they must at the very least consider it preferable to heaven.
⚠️BE CAREFUL! THE ECUMENIST!⚠️
Kallistos Ware was an unbelieving blasphemer. He assumes a higher morality than God, thinking eternal punishment is immoral. These people hope Christ was wrong when he taught eternal punishment. There are serious implications to hoping universal is true. Read by article on universalism. The link is in my Community section.
Christ did NOT teach eternal punishment. Read a LITERAL, accurate translation of the original Greek text of the NT, not a traditional translation like the NIV or the KJV. It clearly indicates temporary, corrective punishment. "Eternal" in English translations is an improper translation from the Greek word "aionion", which means "related to an age" or age-lasting". It comes from the root word "aion", which means "an age". A word that comes from a root word cannot have a greater meaning than thge root word. An age is not an eternity. The Greek word that does mean "eternal" is "aidios", but that word is NEVER used in the Greek Bible text to describe the duration of afterlife punishment.
The Greek word for "retribution" or "vengeance" is "timoria". This type of punishment is meant to satisfy the offended party and is what eternal punishment would be. However, "timoria" is NEVER used in the original NT text to describe afterlife punishment. The Greek word that IS used to describe afterlife punishment is "kolasin". Kolasin means "chastisement" or "correction". Corrective punishments are intended to improve the behavior and character of the offender. The word actually originates from the act of pruning trees and shrubs, cutting way the bad portions to make them healthier. Corrective punishments do not last forever, because what would be the point of trying to improve one's behavior and character through punishment if the punishment lasts forever?
Some Pharisees during the time of Jesus did believe in eternal punishment. In Greek texts from that time, this was described as "eirgmos aidios" (which means "eternal imprisonment) or "timorion adialeipton" (which means "endless torment"). However, in the original draft of the NT, Jesus described afterlife punishment of the unsaved as "aionion kolasin", which means "age-lasting chastisement". If Jesus taught eternal punishment, why did he describe it as age-lasting chastisement?
Further, The Greek word from the NT that was translated into "torment" was "bazanos". Bazanos literally means "touchstone". A touchstone was used in ancient processes for refining precious metals. The metal ore would be put into to a crucible of fire (lake of fire) and sulphur would be added (this is what brimstone is) and the impurities, the dross, would be burned off, leaving the precious metal behind. During the refining process, the metal would be removed from the fire and struck against the touchstone and it would leave a streak. Based on the color of the streak, the refiner would know how pure the metal was at that point. If "torment" was about endless torture, why does it come from a Greek word for something that is part of purification process?
It seems clear to me from reading the literal translations of the Greek text that those who have accepted Jesus as their Savior in their physical life will escape the afterlife punishment but those who have not will need to go through it. Depending on the person, it may be bad and may last a long time, but it is not eternal. Eventually all will accept Christ as their Savior.
As is says in Philippians 2:10-11 (a literal translation form the original text) - "that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, 11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.". This means EVERYONE will acclaim (joyfully and publicly proclaim) that Jesus is Lord. As Paul put it in 1 Timothy 4:10 - "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." God bless.
Was Gregory of Nyssa an unbelieving blasphemer?
Universalism
Is the trap of Satan
These people don’t want to be accountable.
Or as they think,
Minimally accountable.
Universalism reduces the need for ascetic practices and the gospel itself .
The guy talking has probably never done a prostration in his life.
There is no consensus over universalism, it might be true, it might not be true. But there is nothing wrong with hoping that universalism is true, in fact I think we should all hope that all will be saved in the end. But believing for certain that universalism is true is problematic. We should be ambiguous I guess.
@@lazarus3956 Totally Agree. I have issues with the confident universalism not the hopeful.