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Universal Salvation in Christ: A conversation with Professor John Milbank
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- Опубликовано: 18 авг 2024
- with Father Aidan Kimel
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#theology #Christianity #salvation #ChristianTheology #apokatstasis #Christ #JesusChrist #God
I was a Pastor for 11 years, I was raised in the tradition of "Destruction of the wicked". I have not been active in church in many years now, and as my wife is now battling Cancer that has been identified as terminal, I decided I really need to be more certain of our hope and expectation. I stumbled across Universal Reconciliation,.. and was stopped in my tracks! It has brought me a new found joy, and this doctrine I find is certainly more consistent with my understanding of God and a purpose which is in line with what God has instructed for us to walk out when it comes to our need to forgive. Simple as that. Thank you for your contribution to my Joy in the face of immediate disappointment and the sadness that comes with the anticipation of losing the woman I have loved for 42 years.
Wishing all the best for you and for your wife 🙏
Praying for you 🙏 ❤️
2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Grace and Peace 🤍
@Michael M. The Bible teaches universal reconciliation from start to finish but you must be willing to see it
@Michael M. What does the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Love teach?
Scripture is open to interpretation, to mistranslation, to corruption. The Spirit of Truth can never be corrupted.
@Michael M. Study it then, with the guidance of the Spirit and you will find.
10:53 : "I regard the doctrine of eternal suffering as bonkers": True, it's nuts.
Yes it is so opposed to God's character and love. Love your enemies, so God can do the hating for you.
Thank you for info that doctrine of hell/ECT in our time is a reason people are not becoming or staying Christian. I agree. If we consider it false we must protest against it when we find it. Also interesting it tends to lead to predestination. I think that is true too!
It's always great to see John's characteristic insight and integrative vision on display. The link between the Luke 15 parables and gnosticism was particularly striking. Thanks for doing this.
I respect John. He’s the only universalist that has kept orthodox opinions on other issues and hasn’t ebbed and flowed around different ecclesiologies based on embracing universalism, imo strengthening its position as the truly orthodox one. Leaving your communion over it, nearly dying from covid in the ceremony and having a patriarch that promises martyrdom for killing your former parishioners, not too mention one’s own numerous children being an irrevocable truth of the former, it’s a call to discernment of spirits. John is surely a prophet that universalism can be a call to communion instead of a call to more musical chairs that the church has been playing at for the past millennium.
To see the good truly is to desire it insatiably; not to desire it is not to have known it and so never having been free to choose it.
I stopped attending any church around fifty years ago and - apart from the churches' teachings on human sexuality - it was questions around 'eternal torment' (ie TORTURE!), a concept which appears to delight many 'Christians', which gave me most cause for concern. Of course, just starting out to study theology in the early 70s, I did not have the knowledge to realise that a 'universalist' position may be both Pauline, and orthodox. It certainly makes more sense of the God I see in (what I know of) Judaism, and especially in Jesus of Nazareth; than does the God proclaimed by the 'scriptural literalists', who dominate, and overwhelm, the churches' narratives. What astonishes me most of all is that - surely - to take delight in eternal torment of the 'damned' is indicative of a deeply unhealthy human psycopathy. This particular follower of Jesus would not regard a God of limited love as worthy of worship: no matter how many 'scriptura' verses are cited in favour of the monster.
I have not seen Milbank this relaxed, and hence so clear... well, ever really. This is a delight. I, perhaps mischievously, hope that Tom Wright catches up and moderates his rather snooty position towards Hart.
Great interview!
This is splendid.
I think David, rightly, would disagree with John's pitting of Franciscanism against Dominicanism, but he is certainly right to agree with David on the nature of God and universal apokatastisis.
It depends on how we define salvation. If it's reconciliation with our one body, which is our possession of its single self, we are all saved to the extent that we identify with it. Nevertheless, and as Paul says, regardless of our sense of self, we are all saved bodily in that the one body is everyone's body (1 Cor. 3).
2 Peter 3:9 ESV
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Very Good !!!
Totally Inspiring!
Eternal damnation is a doctrine of demons. Those who love it...are demons too..
Eh, it’s been the predominant view of the Church for a long time. A lot of people who love God don’t look into the issue closely and have been told that not believing in it is heretical. I know lots of sincere, loving people who hold to ECT. I’m in the universalist camp, but I think you’re taking it too far.
@@HApqzr77 I don't think so
Meh. More so of Calvinism.
Well i would not say that,this would mean the vast majority of Christians are demons. Now they have been influenced by a demonic lie certainly, but they are not themselves demons.
The trouble is, if you _don't_ want to believe in a Fall, how do you account for how shoddy people are and what a bog-hole the world is? If you're not careful you will end up having to say that God actually _wanted_ it this way!
Does anyone know of a Christian Oneness Universalist writer or theologian ?
People didn't object to the doctrine of hell in the Middle Ages did they? It's not that in itself that puts people off, it's their wish to behave contrary to Christian teaching.
Did they not? Who knows, right? They also purposely tortured themselves which I don't see people doing, not on that scale anyway So people whipping themselves, that is hard to relate to today. Is that even moral?
Always amazes me how much talk and writing has been devoted to God when we know absolutely nothing about God.
We know God because of the incarnation. It's not just an abstraction. God became knowable in space and time.
God gave us minds in order that we may better understand him.
In the Greek, all God breathed writings are approved for teaching
God is of infinite dignity, and so a sin against God is, in one respect, infinite. So it should not be surprising that the punishment should be of infinite duration. Apokatastasis is an ancient heresy that the Church has never ceased to condemn. We live in a proud world, a world that asserts itself against God, and, indeed, even sets itself up as God's judge. Those who push this demonic theology (contrary to all revelation) are in the hands of demons, and will spend eternity with them in hell. There can be no sugar-coating the issue for the morally and intellectually weak.
But if the punishment is of infinite duration, then how can Jesus suffer it for us?
So if Jesus paid the penalty for our sins., it IS surprising that those sins can never be paid, being infinite. There seems to be a logical problem here.
I don't think Universalism is heresy, at least not all versions. so I think you would need to cite that. I do not think Apokatastasis exactly equates.
To say that Jesus, who wants to save all mankind, actually will succeed in doing that, seems hardly demonic. To say that people who believe this are hell-bound seems quite an assertion. What basis do you have to say that? Assuming a person had all the other core beliefs, what basis do you have that that belief would damn them?
Does anyone know the name of the author John is referring to at 42:00?
Possibly Peggy Ward Rawheiser
I am getting Peggy Levitt and Peggy Kamuf when googling.
I think he’s actually referring to Charles Péguy
@@Durziage quite possibly, I got Peggy from the transcript but none of their bios make that much sense 😅
@@Durziage Yes, Péguy
What does Ratzinger say about universal salvation?
He intimates in favor of it, in Deus Caritas Est.
34:15 How is that name spelled? Anyone?
Sergei (or Sergius) Bulgakov
@@travisa2455 Thank you so much Travis! 😘
“These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”
II Thessalonians 1:9
οἵτινες δίκην τίσουσιν ὄλεθρον αἰώνιον ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ Κυρίου καὶ ἀπὸ τῆς δόξης τῆς ἰσχύος αὐτοῦ
“The word Hell (Kolasis in Greek) comes from the verb ‘kolazo’ and has two meanings. One is ‘pruning’ and the other is ‘punishment’. It is mainly used in the second meaning in Holy Scripture, but from the point of view that it is not God Who punishes, but someone punishes himself because he does not accept God’s gift. In any case the lack of communion with God is a man’s punishment, especially when we think that man was created in the image and likeness of God, and this is the deepest goal of his existence.
Two passages in Holy Scripture refer explicitly to Hell.
One is in Christ’s words about the future Judgment. Christ said: ‘And these will go into everlasting punishment (kolasin, hell), but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt. 25, 46.) If this passage is connected with the earlier verse: “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25, 41), it seems that Hell is identified with the everlasting fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels and not for man.
The other passage in Scripture which contains the word Hell is found in the first Epistle of Saint John the Evangelist; ‘Perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment (kolasin). But he who fears has not been made perfect in love’ (1 Jn. 4, 18). To be sure, he refers not specifically to Hell, the manner of life of the unrighteous after the Second Coming of Christ, but to the punishment which is linked with fear and is alien to love.
The life of Hell is rendered in Holy Scripture in other terms and other expressions, such as ‘everlasting fire’ (Matt. 25, 41), ‘outer darkness’ (Matt 25, 30), ‘hell fire’ (Matt 5, 22), and so forth. But it is not my purpose here to analyze these words as well…
...It is very important that we look at the teaching of the Holy Fathers about Paradise and Hell, because they are the unerring teachers of the Church, the bearers of the undefiled Tradition, and therefore Holy Scripture cannot be interpreted without their God-inspired teaching. Besides, the Church, which is the divine-human Body of Christ, writes Holy Scripture and interprets it.
The general teaching of the Holy Fathers of the Church is that Paradise and Hell do not exist from God’s point of view, but from man’s. It is true that Paradise and Hell exist as two ways of life, but it is not God Who created them. In the patristic tradition it is clear that there are not two places, but God Himself is Paradise for the saints and God Himself is Hell for the sinners.
This is inseparably linked with the teaching of the Fathers about reconciliation and man’s enmity towards God. Nowhere in Holy Scripture does it appear that God is reconciled with men, but that Christ reconciles man to God. Moreover it appears in the whole patristic Tradition that God is never opposed to man, but man opposes himself to God by having no communion and participation with Him. Thus man makes God his enemy and God does not make man His enemy. Through the sin which he commits, man sees God in an angry and hostile way. We shall look at this subject as we present briefly the teaching of the particular Fathers of the Church.
We may well begin with St. Isaac the Syrian, who speaks about what is Paradise and what is Hell.
Speaking of Paradise, he says that it is the love of God. And naturally when we refer to love we mean chiefly and foremost the uncreated energy of God. He writes: ‘Paradise is the love of God, wherein is the enjoyment of all blessedness’. But also referring to Hell he says almost the same thing, that even Hell is the scourge of love. He writes: ‘I also maintain that those who are punished in Gehenna, are scourged by the scourge of love. Nay, what is so bitter and vehement as the torment of love?’
So Hell is torment of the love of God. Besides, as St. Isaac says, the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against the love of God, ‘is more poignant than any torment’. It really is a punishment when we deny and oppose anyone’s love. It is terrible when we are loved and behave inappropriately. If we compare this to the love of God, we can understand the torment of Hell. And it is connected with what St. Isaac says again, that it would be improper for a man to think ‘that sinners in Gehenna are deprived of the love of God’.
So even those punished will receive the love of God. God will love all men, both righteous and sinners, but they will not all feel this love to the same degree and in the same way. In any case it is absurd for us to maintain that Hell is the absence of God.
These things mean that men’s experiences of God will be different. To each Christ the Master will give ‘according to the measure of his excellence and his worthiness.’ For there the order of those who teach and those who learn will cease, and in each will be ‘the ardent love of all’. Thus there will be one who will give His grace to all, that is God Himself, but men will receive it according to their capacity. The love of God will fall on all men, but it will act in a twofold way, punishing the sinners and giving joy to the righteous. St. Isaac the Syrian, expressing the Orthodox Tradition on this subject, writes: ‘The power of love works in two ways: it torments sinners, even as happens here when a friend suffers from a friend; but it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties’.”-Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos
@@saenzperspectives Kolasis never means hell (that is a completely different discussion).
Kolasis means restorative or cleansing punishment (chastisement).
If the concept of retributive punishment was intended in Matthew 25 then timorei would have been the appropriate Greek word.
Eternal punishment is a poor translation of the phrase found in Matthew 25, a better translation would be the chastisement of the age to come.
Be blessed.
The Greek word that has been mistranslated as “everlasting” should actually be translated as eonian, meaning pertaining to an eon or age, not everlasting without end.
When one is void of Goodness and has destroyed within himself the image of God,, how can this person be chastised to a point of repenting and turning to God. It moreso a case of that person needing to be "refilled" with Gods image...a reversing of the corruption. How can he obtain this without the tree of life available, which is only available in heaven?
Hi i have a question. Is the Antichrist just as ordinary as anybody else before he sells his soul to Satan or has he been specially ordained since the beginning of time for a role like this?
The term "antichrist" is only found in 1&2 John, and it does not refer to one single individual, but rather anyone “who denies that Jesus is the Christ”, “who denies the Father and the Son”, “who does not confess Jesus”, and “who does not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh”.
There are many antichrists, just as there are.many marks of the beast. I think it a mistake to think tgede things refer to one specific thing.
@@jackshadow325 The antichrist is the "man of sin."
@@jeffreykalb9752 What are you basing that on?
@@jeffreykalb9752 Are you sure? Why do you think that?
It is not Christ, but God (in 1 Cor 15:28) who will be "all in all."
Christ is God, no?
@@HApqzr77 indeed, amen.
Notice how they always avoid discussing annihilationism. It's so easy to take down ECT.
Annihilationism describes a God who is Divine Executor. Universalism, rightly, teaches of a Divine Saviour.
@@PaxMundi118 Why shouldn't God judge the wicked that refuse to repent? That's a good thing not evil.
@@Mrm1985100 Because our will is ultimately oriented to the Good and infinite punishment serves no good.
@@Mrm1985100 Because there is “None good…”
At 24.55 Milbank says, our bodies will be transformed. They're not going to simply vanish.
9:37 "Evil is also illusion": where is that taught in the Bible? Evil seems to be based on human and angelic freewill and the consequences of it.
Because it's powerless. It's a vacuum. The lack of good. Therefore an illusion
@@ezekielchojnacki410 It has to be more than an illusion since its effects are real.
@@jackshadow325 An illusion can have real effects if people believe the illusion. Take for example hypnosis
@@ezekielchojnacki410 There’s far more substance to evil than a believed illusion.
God created evil? If evil is not non-being then God must have created evil, which means that God is the cause of evil, and is not all-good.
Zoroastrian? Think he means Manichaean.
Maybe calling the vast majority of Christians who have ever lived “bonkers” isn’t the best thing to do. Not sure why so many universalists feel the need to put down believers in the traditional view but it’s extremely off-putting and comes off as “holier than thou”
I think you'll find that most universalists suffer far worse than being indirectly called "bonkers" by their traditionalist brothers and sisters who even fail to recognize them as such.
Many of the early Church Fathers we're Universalist and the teaching that God would retributively punish many of those he created does seem bonkers. On top of that it is claimed that this is the way a Good God operstes. That is not Jahweh, that is Molech.
In my experience as someone who for much of my Christian walk thought that ECT was the only option, coming to see that God is a loving Father who has reconciled the world to himself through Christ is truly liberating.
@@stephengorman1025indeed, and you no longer live in fear.
God led me to Christian Universalism in my darkest hours, as my faith crumbled under the weight of realizing the family (and to a lower degree church) I was brought up in was cultish.
He enlightened me with peace I hadn't had almost my entire life and gave me a broader understanding of scripture. It even helped me understand Revelation a bit.
I don't buy into Christian Universalism fully (which is fine, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs) but as a whole makes a lot more sense.
Well he's not saying those belivers themselves are bonkers, just that their belief that God is frankly a hypocrite who would burn people for all eternity, when he says to turn the other cheek and forgive 77 time bonkers.
I don't think he really means ordinary believers - he seems to have little awareness of them. He means other theologians!
Still, rather than getting huffy about having our beliefs questioned, we should see whether there isn't some sense in what he has to say. After all, nobody _wants_ to believe in hell do they - unless you're hoping to use it to settle a few scores...?
Next: how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...
That is why the wicked are are not eternally existing and that they will ultimately, after burning for all there sins committed, be turned to ashes. There is no immortality of the soul. The wages of sin is death or eternal separation.
Then heaven can't be heaven. A single missing soul turns heaven into utter incoherent nonsense. The puzzle would be eternally short a piece.
@@jennifermcwethy1690 what is your definition of heaven? Getting all the things you desire or something?
Of course, see above. I belong to my Beloved and His desire is for me. I want my hearts desire, so do you. Guess what my friend, you want God I want God and we are going to spend eternity in the single instant of ahhhh when we see and are known by our hearts desire
But the monsters in life, the ones who sought the Good feasting on my bones, they too want God and will know the bliss of Union, and even though they made life hell, the monster will be redeemed, and I will know them as they are. All the tears dried. I cannot think of anything more terrifying, but it is inevitable and good and all shall be well. Myshkin
"what is your definition of heaven? Getting all the things you desire or something?" -- but people ... aren't things.