Ascended Astarion Fans Are Unhinged
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- If you like Astarion, or even Baldur's Gate 3, in any way, you've probably run into/seen Ascended Astarion fans.
They have a reputation for being intense and a little...quirky...🤪
...
If I'm honest, they're scary-
Today, we'll take a look into some things Ascended Astarion fans have to say and go over why they have their intense and...unhinged label.
If you're reading this, comment 😧
I'm currently most active on my IG:
....
But I am also on TT:
TikTok:
/ swordinthesto. .
^ I go live on Instagram and TikTok to react to/watch Merlin often, as well ❤️
I must say, it really does drive the point home that so many ascended Astarion fans keep framing the people that say these things as innocent and I'm the bad guy. This is romanticizing and sexualizing abuse. You are reasoning and excusing abuse. That's not just something that affects you. That's something that affects others. You're not the only person in the world, you don't live in a vacuum. Also, if you can post it on the internet, I can comment on it.
And to say that my "mocking tone" makes my points on how romanticizing and exusing abuse is wrong invalid...is an insane take.
I understand you probably want to be coddled when someone points out some faults or not good things in your logic or words, but you're being harmful. "We just want to enjoy-" and yet you're posting it on the internet for all to see. The internet where people, some in my comments section, see this exusing and romanticizing, and it hurts as abuse victims.
I also really feel like none of you watched the video all the way through. I don't care if you like him as a character, he's written well and it's cool to see an evil version. I care if you don't see that he actually is evil and then try to excuse and reason his abuse and harmful behavior. As said in the video.
You aren't the only person or people in the world.
@messofstuff1116 They ARE saying he isn't evil. They are EXUSING his abuse. Directly. That hurts people. Convinces them that these things are abusive or unhealthy. His obsession ISN'T love because those things don't go hand in hand and if you excuse abuse you DO need therapy. This isn't healthy to think for yourself, so putting it online for everyone to see? You don't live in a vacuum. Saying that this behavior isn't healthy isn't "being a mean girl".
I am very concerned that you said it's condescending to say that he doesn't own you. Cause that's the point of his evil route. And to say it's putting people down to say that he doesn't own you is genuinely concerning. I said that it's fine if you use fantasy to feed into small things WHILE getting help for it. Realizing that it's not good and not speaking about it like it is. Again, y'all keep framing this like you're all entirely innocent and I'm "the mean girl". Maybe you guys are being harmful and won't listen to those trying to tell you that because you selfishly just want to indulge in the unhealthy online for others to find and see people excusing and romanticizing abuse. This is how girls grow up seeing abuse as normal and then seek it out in their relationships.
I think the issue here is that people don't know how to take a step back and reflect on themselves when faced with someone who doesn't agree. That's how we learn. That's how I learned. That's how everyone learns. Wanting to be a better person who doesn't hurt others and being open to being wrong, even if it hurts.
For the trillionths time, I don't care I'd you like him. I care if you act like he's not evil and then spread online that his abuse is actually love and okay. That's so extremely unhealthy and tone policing me when point put how dangerous that is IS insane. I care for those who believe these things themselves, but how much am I supposed to care when they carelessly excuse abuse online and hurt others by it out of selfishness? I think I'm done on this topic, I just keep repeating myself since people won't listen, so I believe this possibly to be the last thing I have to say.
🧛😿 The thing that gets me about that tumblr post is that I'm not even sure that Neil's reaction was a negative one to the person saying they are the "biggest Ascended Astarion apologist" or if he was just like I will not touch this with a ten foot pole. He's probably aware of how ugly and intense the debate gets and wants nothing to do with it.
Definitely, also the person behind that biggest apologist name is actually pretty ok. She made a post explaining that she named herself that way before the drama as a joke bc she understands the nuance of the character but it was an inside joke between friends and she didn’t feel at all offended by Neil’s reaction. The unhinged post was from completely unrelated person
I've been watching his streams and he's always respectful. Though he is clearly uncomfortable when someone asks him to sign prints saying possessive things, he tries not to say anything demeaning, he just says "to each their own" or something to that effect.
Ascended Astarion is basically David Bowie in Labyrinth with fangs.
@orlandobloom9018 and that is exactly why I like him. Too many people hold Astarion and Jareth to the human/mortal standards of love but you CAN'T do that because they AREN'T mortal OR human!
@@Phoenix_DarkMoonthank you! 💖🥹💖
I'm an Ascended Astarion fan, but not an APOLOGIST. I only Ascended him in my evil Durge playthrough, bc I wanted that "evil+hot power couple", I know he's evil, toxic & controlling, and let's be honest, irl we would all stay away from such a walking red flag as (even spawn) Astarion is. One can be a fan and still call things what they are, and this kind of game/playthrough is a way to explore these unhealthy scenarios in a sorta-safe way, with no lasting trauma/consequences
I agree with most everything you said-- the only thing that I disagreed some with was that most Ascended Astarion fans like and justify him; I think that most Ascended Astarion fans are pretty well adjusted and understand that he's evil, but them being well adjusted means that they are probably not chronically online lol. The ones that are angrily justifying his behavior are just the most vocal.
That being said-- Ascended Astarion fans are completely fine, and might have absolutely nothing wrong with them, if they understand that he is NOT a good person. I think that most Ascended Astarion fans are like Sephiroth fans. They see a hot, sexy, evil, and a bit broken man, and go feral. I respect that, and I myself love Sephiroth. One thing that absolutely rubs me the wrong way, however, is how some of the more vocal fans will attack others for thinking that the ascension is a bad thing. I find it funny that a lot of them will try to justify him ascending as the best option because its "what he wants".... which means they either failed or outright ignored the insight check you can make in that scene that will tell you he is scared, overwhelmed, and blinded by the idea that ascension is the only way he can have freedom. The biggest thing that I feel a lot of these fans miss is that Astarion's story is more or less about the cycle of abuse. Cazador was loads better than his master, and Ascended Astarion is loads better than Cazador... but he's still an abuser. Keeping him from ascending frees him from that cycle.
They must have also missed how when he was still a spawn, sure he may be chaotic and stuff, but deep down he is still good. Him not biting innocents was already an indication. Years of manipulation and abuse and then suddenly tasting freedom is the reason why Astarion is the way he is, chaotic, a little unhinged but get to know him, he's very sweet and just needs help. Showing him that there are better times (especially if you choose to give him a hug) is like watching someone slowly healing. That for me, is the true Astarion.
Ascended Astarion is just a monster. Sure you can like him, I like dark fantasies too, just don't forget that he's not the Astarion you and the other party members grew to cherish with.
@@Swallow341 Exactly! Couldn’t have said that better myself!
You are completely right. Most A!Astarion fans are super chill, often times like both versions. It's always the same unhinged weirdos who give that side of the fandom a really bad name.
All of them do understand and know his actions aren't to be condoned, they're just enjoying the character and his fucked up Dracula era.
In fact every ascended fan I've met is very chill and they only get upset when people come after them or try to shame them and accuse them of exploiting abuse survivors.
They all just wanna enjoy the evil route without being made to feel like there's something inherently wrong with them.
@@meowser1905 While I think most them are 100% in the mindset you put forth, I have to disagree with it being all of them. I had discourse with one on Reddit (I know, not the best example of peak internet behavior) in which they went so far as to tell me I was being an abusive friend/love interest by keeping him from ascending.
"He doesn't torture us, so he's a good guy" - that made me laugh so hard. First of all, having been gaslighted and manipulated a lot myself, I can say that this is not in any way cute or sweet or romantic. It destroys the person you are and leaves you with so little confidence that you become literally unable to cope with your life without the guidance of the abuser. Despite that I can understand why ascended Astarion appeals to people. He does have some interesting voicelines - but also a lot of creepy ones (haven't been to act 3 myself, so I'm judging from what I saw on youtube so far). It's totally fine if someone admires a villain. This game is well written and has awesome storylines and cool characters - both good and evil. And if someone is into an unhealthy relationship with their obsessive vampire boyfriend, well, BG3 has them covered. What I don't understand is why there even has to be debate on which version of Astarion is "better", why people feel the need to defend themselves or attack each other on social media. To stick with rpg terms: Nowadays a lot of people seem to be paladins spreading the one true faith - which is their opinion of course. But there is no real need for either side to justify themselves. People like different things, that's normal. You don't have to like everything about this game or its characters to appreciate the work put into it. The writers did an amazing job, not only with Astarion but the whole game. And Neil did a great job at voicing ascended and spawn Astarion differently. That's worth being appreciated even if you don't like one version of his character.
tl dr: Why can't people just accept that different tastes are not a reason to offend each other on social media?
And some say that he is loving and concerned about her well being because at some point he asks what Tav wants... As if abusers didn't do that.
Yeah I didn't get the answer on each side at first, but I guess everything becomes way on the Internet nowadays
I'm an Astarion simp, have been since game 1 in Early access, But I can never, and will never ascend him in my playthroughs (and I have tried). I saw the romance scene that you get right after ascending him on tiktok, and it made my skin crawl.
Ascended Astarion to me, myself, and I. Doesn't even feel like the same person that we grew to enjoy along the journey, I can understand why people like him, as I also like certain villains. However, I don't understand how the Ascended fans don't see that he's a horrible person on that route.
What bothers me too is how they insist it's better FOR Astarion, when he loses his soul, becomes incapable of feeling happiness ever again... And when spawn Astarion will literally thank Tav for thinking he's good enough as he is and doesn't need to ascend to be worthwhile to them. Ascension essentially reinforces the idea to Astarion that he wasn't good enough and thus Tav didn't really like him in the first place, which obviously would feed the obsessive behaviour he has as an ascended vampire.
me to shark, me to.
All I'm gonna say is...
When he is staying as a Spawn, he gets out and travels. As an Ascendant Vampire DESPITE he can go out and enjoy the sun, he stays inside his palace and never goes out.
That should explain a lot.
I think the biggest reason for all this discourse lies with Astarion and his fandom in general. Astarion is very openly mentally unwell. I've written some analyses myself and posted them, and from the general feedback, wether its spawn, normal, or ascended, Astarion, people tend to identify with him to a massive degree. Since they're so emotionally invested, however, a very small but incredibly loud group gets very vocal about issues or tries to validate their choices, which sadly is easiest by invalidating that of others. To some, it doesn't look like a personal opinion someone has on a fictional work, but rather a personal attack on the person themselves, since they relate so heavily after all.
The majority of both fandoms seem well adjusted enough to realise he's fictional, that this is a game and that ascended is a bad ending, and that liking or identifying with it is perfectly ok, as long as they're aware that its nothing good and something they should work on.
It's the small but incredibly vocal minorities out there that apologise for ascending or, for spawn, try to infantalise him and, ironically enough, also apologise for him.
Astarion is no good guy, will never be. But it's still valid to like him or relate to aspects of his story. As long as it stays fictional and people keep that in mind. I mean, he very openly admits to enjoying murder. that's not someone you should date (or someone that runs free irl if we're honest).
Overall, I think we all can agree that neither of his endings or relationships is particularly healthy, and the same goes for all relationships in BG3 (looking at you, Mr. I have known you since 4 months lets marry, happy ending-Gale). They're pretty much all messed up as hell, and most of this stuff should stay fictional and a fantasy, as its not something to be desired irl. There's nothing wrong with liking either ending. Just be respectful and kind to your fellow humans about it. (And please, for the love of god, people should stop treating Neil like their therapist.)
It's one thing if someone wants to do an ascended Astarion run.
But I wouldn't trust a person who did it WITH the intention of doing a "Good" run.
Ascended Astarion lovers who think he's not already manipulating them... 😅 when he repeated that he was "watching", it was more in a threat/warning tone. I can't help but feel like a lot of the people trying to prove Asc-Astarion is really in love with you either are too young or too naive. It's fine to be into "yandere" types, but if you conflate obsession with love...
Besides, Astarion was pretty open about manipulating you from the start for his own survival... once he ascends whatever genuine love he has for the player character evaporates because of the moral alignment shift. I can see the appeal in this dynamic (fictionally), but.... yeah...
I do think that some of the comments you discuss (of the 'I love he said he's watching' variety) might be just people essentially discussing what is effectively a sexual fantasy. As you say yourself, there's nothing bad in enjoying an evil character, but I agree that those who genuinely think the ascended ending is good ARE unhinged. Even if someone is blind to ascendant's abusive behavior toward Tav, the fact that 7000 people needed to die for his ascension should have really hammered the point home. You CAN enjoy any ending but not being able to see what happened is just... off.
And I didn't know about the Neil stream drama. Like... seriously. That person could have just taken his reaction as a joke and moved on. It's not that serious....
I feel that some people are just either unable to read beyond what's being explicitly said or have enotional issues that make them genuinely buy into thos kind of gaslighting behavior.
Exactly. Like I love the idea of Ascended Astarion because it's just there for the dark romance girlies, and he's genuinely an interesting character even when he goes down the evil route. But to call it his good ending? To call Tav a manipulator for trying to persuade him not to ascend? Delusional. Say what you will about Dark Justiciar Shadowheart, but at least fans of that route don't pretend like Shadowheart's making a GOOD choice.
@@ettaetta439 LOL did you also see the reddit comments calling Tav a manipulator for persuading Astarion out of ascending? I remember reading them over and over trying to understand where they were coming from because it just didn't make sense. Also the unhinged fans don't even consider the other characters reactions to Astarion ascending. Dark Justiciar SH reactions vs Selunite SH really shows that ascending is the evil dark path.
@@ChaoticSorceress yep. It's wildddd
14:20 Astarion literally says he will turn Tav into a spawn, paraphrasing: "of course you'll be a spawn first before I make you a true vampire"
And then he refuses to make Tav a true vampire, and keeps getting defensive when Tav asks about why they're a spawn. "I much prefer consort" yeah pretty words won't change reality tho??????
And I think the only reason he hasn't used his power over Tav is because FOR NOW Tav is still his well behaved pet, his little trophy, who will bend to his commands without vampiric compulsion.
And, he is only freshly ascended, the reality of the vampire curse hasn't really hit him yet... The curse of never feeling happy, never feeling content, how losing his soul has made all the power in the world worthless. But vampires can't accept that, they can't accept that they are CURSED, the narcissim they have will convince them that XYZ will eventually make them happy. We don't know what Cazador was like right after he turned into a true vampire, he very well may have been just like Astarion, but with time the emptiness in his heart drove him into being the monster we know. The only hint of feeling alive was through causing pain to others, as simple as that. So it's most likely just a question of WHEN, not IF, Astarion begins to turn into Cazador 2.0.
(also, completely unrelated note, you look so much like one of my best friends it's super weird. Sent the link to her sister too and she agrees with me)
I like ascended Astarion but not on the same level as I like spawn Astarion. The ascended version truly terrifies me. I had a run with A.Astarion and I got so terrified when at the party he said "I'll be watching. I'm always watching."
I do think it’s funny how some people truly think he might turn you into a full vamp someday when point blank he tells you that full vampires don’t do that. To quote him “it doesn’t happen”
To be honest I think it might be in the realm of possibility, but it doesn't make any difference really... The way he treats Tav is... ugh. Just horrible. Even if he someday decides to turn her.
There is nothing wrong with liking dark stuff. Some people like villains, like me with Sephiroth or Griffith, I like them, but I don't like their actions. In the end, you have to acknowledge that they're villains, regardless of background, they're still causing harm. The same goes for Ascended Astarion. You can like him, but saying and insisting that "he's still good?" The 7k sacrifices should have already been an indication that there's gonna be another monster in the making. I'm just appalled why some fans don't understand this.
As an Ascended Astarion fan and probably on the older side of the fan base I completely understand that he is not a good person. It’s all fantasy indulgence of the dark part of my imagination. I grew up reading the Anne Rice chronicles. I think my first book character crush was Lestat (I was 12 when I read Interview) and as I grew up I I thought I wanted to date the broken bad boys to fix them. I did not in fact enjoy any of those relationships. They were awful. I pretty quickly stopped dating people like that. My husband and father to our children is nothing like those toxic people and I’m happy. In real life I don’t want the toxic obsessive abusive guy. But in my own, admittedly messed up imagination, where I’m in complete control of what happens in there, I enjoy the broken, abusive bad boy. I don’t know if it’s an age thing, but I’d never disparage someone for not agreeing with my choices in a freaking game. So I’m going to hope it’s just that these people are not done growing up and they just have the misfortune of the internet existing while they go through the rough process of growing up and maturing.
So glad my adolescent stupidity was not put on display for the world to see…
Ascended Astarion in my opinion is the type where I enjoy the fanfiction that comes afterwards. I always had an interest in stories that have yandere in it because I like thriller romance and wanted to see how characters would break out of that kind of relationship with toxic and obsessed bf/gf. Depends on how they're written though.
@@Swallow341 same. Love to indulge in the fanfics. Even decided to write my own tragic romance about them 😅
I am a strange old fangirl that never really left 12 year old me behind
@@alexandralockton5671 I'm in my 20s and sometimes I do read (or watch if it's a video) fanfiction, though as I said, it depends, and most are thriller, horror, tragedy. 😅
Absolutely nothing wrong if you enjoy something.
Same, im 32 and in discord groups with older people who all have their own opinions on him and his path lines. All of us have had talks about this discourse and we're all in agreement that this is such a non issue lol
Just because someone is a lesser evil doesn't mean they're not evil 😭😭
im a little scared of some of the commenters in this video ngl
I don’t mind people playing out the evil route, I don’t mind people really talking about the story. I was a really big fan of the fandom, but the ascended Astarion fans kinda ran me away. I know everyone has the right to play a game and bring up their own conclusions, but seeing how much of myself in Astarion and seeing so many “This is the way.” “He loves us for sure!” “If you don’t Ascend him you you hate him!” AND Especailly the clip of ascended Astarion apologist on the stream getting something signed by Neil and his face says it all.
It’s a game at the end of the day, but a few things:
1) It’s connected to DnD so things work REALLY close to the rule book. There’s no exceptions here, I’ve ran vampires with their own agenda in my home brew games, but the dnd rule book is clear. They’re evil. Self serving, and manipulative. It’s rough buddy, but you gotta get over it.
2) If you leave Asarion to his own devices He will Ascend, but he does so OUT OF FEAR. He makes this more than clear. Listen to Astarion. He also has seen vampirism as the end game FOR 200 YEARS. People still carry their trauma even after “Freed from it.”
3) He doesn’t know what he wants and constantly uses “This is what you want” Language trying to see what Tav desires so TAV doesn’t get rid of him. THATS HIS FEAR SO HE CONSTANTLY LOOKING FOR APPROVAL AND WAYS TO KNOW YOU WON’T GET RID OF HIM PERMANENTLY. If you ascend he will never know someone staying by his side by choice. Instead of showing him he has the freedom to make his choices like everyone else in the world and be the main character of his story finally. You take the “easier” answer to assure they won’t get rid of you. He ascends and will never know people like him for him. That’s the worst. You tell him we only want him for power. We only want him for use and in return he desires us to be a spawn and continue the cycle knowing that we can never leave him because we can’t.
Larian made a beautiful game with so much to explore, explore the toxicity. Shit take Karlachs head, Have minsc stab Jahira, Kill the lesbians thanks to the Durge and Shadowheart, I really don’t care about these things. Don’t tell me ascended is the best for him. Don’t tell me easy power is the only answer. Because it’s not. Don’t tell me he’s the same after this. He’s not. Larian made it as CLEAR as possible without making it drippingly obvious and still people can’t take the hint. The game is updating more and we’re getting even more TOXIC content from ascended astarion and it’s Larian, Stephen and Neil making it glaringly obvious that he is not the same and is a controlling ruler for you now as a spawn… mini rant over 😅
For number 2, I failed my persuasion check for Astarion just to see what he'd do, and he chose not to ascend. I've heard other people also leave him to his own devices and he chooses not to ascend in their cases. It really depends on how much of a good influence you've been on him. So people saying "it's what he wants" are kinda forgetting that what you "want" is conditional at any given time. Tav is not a manipulator or toxic for persuading him to kill 7000 people, including innocent children.
For him, choosing to ascend is about getting power, not freedom. He says so himself if he doesn't ascend--he was blinded by the power. He already had freedom the moment Cazador lost. Killing Cazador was freedom, ascension was power. And power--as Tav put it in their own words at the very start of Astarion's romance arc, as Astarion put it himself at the end of his arc if he doesn't ascend--corrupts.
Bruh, I like the ascension line because of how much he changes as a person because he's not the same! I hate people who pretend that he's not an asshole cuz he very much is lol like for me it's the culmination of terrible choices and the consequences of them. There's no way I'm romanticizing any of his actions but I am going to romanticize the journey and the fall of a hero in a way. The folly of choice in the worst way. Also I do feel like it's a context situation?? Like I roleplay my evil character to basically be at his beck and call because he knows she could kill him at any moment. I love leaning into that dichotomy of him still being afraid and weak even with all this power. It's hilarious that you mentioned being yandere dynamics because that's exactly how I describe my evil character 😅 Also for me it's more the exchange of power between a bhaal spawn and a vampire ascendant, I lean into that whole "oh I was trying to get something out of you" I know they're toxic and codependent and I wouldn't have it any other way.
😭🧛♀wow was not aware of that happening to Neil. He did not deserve that level of backlash. Like what you like at the end of the day; but at least have the decency to accept others might not agree or like it the same way you do. I love spawnstarion's story of healing. Ascended just creeps me out so I don't play it. It's the beauty of youtube, there are countless let's plays out there that can show me what I missed out on by not having the heart to let Astarion become a fúll blown monster. At most I've made the mistake of asking why people like him and gotten nonanswers (lol play the game!" I mean I did and am hence why I am here asking questions to the greater community) ("Different people like different things so stop asking." I wasn't trying to be disrepectful in asking I swear) ("It's like a whole act 3 arc or something." LIke I said earlier I've played the game I get that I'm not stupid. Though I am getting tired of being treated like I am game illiterate at this point.) ("Just...ya know reasons." Ok I can accept this is something you are into, good for you.)
Obsession isn't love. I honestly don't know if Ascended Astarion is capable of love. It's tragic really. If you can head cannon your way into a Tav that is living happily ever after with the vamp good for you; I can't. I'm not saying you are wrong; but your head cannon is not greater then my head cannon.
I think I said this on twitter but I'll repeat it here; "try showing as much empathy to real life flesh and blood people as you do video game characters. Not every post needs a response; especially if you're not doing so in good faith. If you've just come to shout someone down maybe go outside and touch grass or snow."
🧛😭
i want to tattoo this video on my forehead cause it’s so well explained and articulated ! need everyone to see this and also “u can like the character but understand they’re not a good person” REALEST
I hate to get vids of those kind of ascendant fans into my algorythm. Vids of people who scream. "Proof he loves Tav" or "Vampire bride and groom"
In the game files the dialogue says many times that he lies to Tav making them a full vampire. The dev notes to his dialogue say "manipulative", "lie", "obsessive" and "deflect and gaslighting".
The inentions of ascendant Astarion are not good ones and it is very sickening to see people apologizing for it.
I am okay when people enjoy it. But the distance between them and the fiction is sometimes hard to see. Especially when they start to attack the writer of Astarion, Steeven Roony, to quit because he himself says ascendant is the bad ending.
And Neil is just using quotes from Spawn Astarion all the time for a reason.
I am sad that people insult and judge each other.
Some says spawn is awful and weak
Some says ascendant is casador 2.0
Instead just enjoy the stories and all option
Is so amazing that we have spawn ending, it’s such rare to have good open endings
It so interesting and curious to have evil route because it’s very very rare to see well written and acted evil characters
His manipulations and gaslighting are so well acted that a lot of people believe in it
What I don’t like in Ascendants fans when they denied that it’s evil route and call it the best (even in this game there are no the best and right choices) when the ritual requires to sent 7000 souls to the hell for entire torture or blood war for Mephistopheles against Asmodeus. It’s obvious evil. This game allow us be so true evil.
Ok you like it and it’s ok just don’t call it the best and insult others. (But it happens a lot)
Also interesting there are no such fights about Lazel, Shadowheart and especially Gale
I like all Astarion routes, for me it’s just different stories. Because it’s RPG game. This is the point. It’s sad that people fights but it’s means that Larians and Neil did amazing job - because people got a lot of emotions and still argue with each other 😂😂
@@katiatall I understand not wanting any fights about this. However the Cazador 2.0 opinion is based on actual facts.(Astarion himself says this in his aftermath dialogue when he stays a spawn) And even though there should be freedom in interpretation you can't say a picture is red when you look at a blue picture.
@@katiatallthey seem to have started now that we have the epilogue. Witnessed one about Gale in a comment section two days back and it was ugly. My god Gale threatened my MCs life while smiling just because my Tav said something he didn't like 😂
Ascended Astarion (while hilarious and hot at times) is so punchable. He degrades you with every word he says and I can't with people trying to get around the word "consort" to mean "wife". I also saw people explaining that he does "vampire wife" ritual to you and you are basically married after he turns you which is very cool piece of lore but... What does it change that you are married now? You are still married to asshole degrading you who murdered 7000 people for power. The power to turn into the quirkiest bat in the universe, nonethless
Commenting 2 minutes in to say if this is the cross platform drama I think it is, the person in question got angry at an artist for drawing jokey cute batstarion on top of the essay 😂
🧛😢
This drama really gets out of hand. I just saw a very unhinged comment under a mod which gives the bat form to astarion before the game ends.
@@lisdraconis2212 my gods the comments under that mod that's just a silly little mod that change Astarion into a cute little bat
Something occurred to me a while back, that made me more sympathetic to Ascended Astarion. His story is the revenge fantasy of those who have been wronged. He is also the one people who have/had neglect/abandonment trauma want someone who will never leave them.
However, it could also be people who go "is hot, when in the game, and not irl"
I like Ascended Astarion. But I recognize that Ascended Astarion’s personality is extremely toxic and dangerous. I like watching the stuff for ascended Astarion but would personally never have it in my game unless if I were to go full blown evil route or secret evil (helping everyone and then betray them all in the end kind of route).
Astarion as a whole is an excellent character. Written amazingly for his good and bad route. But in real life, I would never want to be with someone like Astarion because of the baggage and toxicity they have and I don’t have the energy to deal with it.
I think the issue with this OP and some other anti ascension fans is the refusal to separate fiction from nonfiction.
Majority of ascended fans already understand this, so for them they’re just enjoying the fictional character. From my observation on twitter and tumblr, all I see in the ascended Astarion tag is mostly “anti ascended” opinions regarding how toxic, abusive, evil, bad ending, and etc. A.Astarion is while having the unnecessary need to ridicule, berate, and condescend A.A fans about “identity toxicity”, “acknowledging it’s toxic”, or “worrying about their healthy relationships”. Though, I understand those types of response from spawn fans/neutral fans have no ill-intent towards ascended fans, I don’t think some of those responses come off as such especially when another person deems you’re as unstable and should seek therapy solely based on your opinion for supporting or defending ascended Astarion (it happened to me about 3 or 4 times on tumblr).
When I first got into Ascended Astarion tag on tumblr, appreciation post for ascended was decent, but now you can’t scroll through without seeing a post about only doing the ascension as durge so the player can roleplay abusing him back (while stating they only like spawn), which is meta gaming, purposely being abusive, and toxic (though, some Durge players stated the same before but the intent didn’t seem so vitriol.
I'm fine with people enjoying Ascended Astarion as a fantasy. Hell I don't even really care about the sexualizati/on of him as long as they know it's just a fantasy. He's a fictional character and isn't real at the end of the day. BUT I have a problem with people saying that Ascended Astarion can love. I mean maybe he can (I doubt it tho) but he definitely doesn't love the player character that is in the relationship with him. He's controlling, possessive, obsessive, and demanding. None of that is love. He sees the PC/Tav as beneath him. It's impossible to have love for someone if you don't respect them. And how could you even respect someone if you don't see them as your equal? Ascended Astarion doesn't love Tav.
agreed
My interpretation is that he does love Tav. Like someone loves their pet. It is some kind of love, but as you said, love between romantic partners requires respect.
I am more shocked, that almost everyone forgets about 7000 souls sending to hells for entire torture, and calls it the best ending
Maybe Larian should add a lot of people on the background
they already added in the screaming of the spawns while Astarion is doing the ritual in patch 2. Idk what else they could do other than bland violence.
@@lisdraconis2212 yeah, those sounds are terrifying
Also correct me if I’m wrong but these 7000 souls… didn’t Cazador specifically want the innocent ones, ones who were pure, vulnerable , sweet and inexperienced. People who could be easily manipulated, people who had barely started living. Sebastian. Little children!!!Kinda fucked up if you think any of these people deserved what happens to them :(
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Outside of the obvious, that your take is excellent on all the analysis and the whole "you can enjoy evil in fantasy, but don't try to pretend it's not evil" I always feel like the people that are craziest about this kind of subjects are also the most insecure ones?
Like... I dunno if I'll word that right but: (using "you" as a general thing here)
If your enjoyment and approval of a character is dependent on the approval of other people then maybe you're not actually enjoying the character truly?
If you need to justify liking an evil character by reframing them as good, because you don't want people to somehow judge you for it, maybe you need to take a step back and re-evaluate how much influence random strangers on the internet have on you?
It just sound so weird to me. It's like, they need to justify it, and they need everyone to agree with them, but to me it feels like they do that because they themselves know it's not true, but they seem to think if everyone agreed with them then maybe it would be? Kinda like, confirmation bias from the number or something?
And it's not just this fandom, it happens in so, so many others, and also for non fandom things, and it always leaves me thinking:
"Why do you need my approval, if you supposedly already have your own?"
I wish you could do a video on Ascended Astarion when he becomes a God. That aspect is scary.
i didn't find either of astarion's possible endgame routes very satisfying, so it's difficult to be passionate about either side.
I’m so excited for this upload rn lmao🫶🏾🫶🏾🫶🏾
Heyaaa :333 Ascended fan here, just wanted to explain why so many people bring up that "he's not like Cazador" because *insert stuff here* is because we're being constantly told he's nothing more than a Cazador 2.0. When actually he would be his own unique blend of fucked up xDD I personally think both Spawn and Ascended would both be abusive to their partner, you can't just cure 200 years of trauma overnight :')) also people always say that when he Ascends he repeats the cycle of abuse, when he also in his Spawn Origin ending has someone tied up in a cave that he seems to have abducted. As well as all the "unfortunates" killed by the 7000 Spawn if they are freed shown in the epilogue letter.
Also the main thing I don't understand is for the player to even turn into his Spawn you will have needed to here and agreed to: "That's what you want, isn't it? To be mine? Forever?". Like I took this quite literally and understood what it meant for my DU xDD Like I love yanderes, obsession and all that stuff and my DU had already made a Warlock Pact and was the Spawn of Bhaal so another Pact? Hellyeahh :'33 Like for some people, this would not be the route for them? But it's perfect for others, obviously this stuff is bad irl and for Ascended and Spawn versions I would be running away at the speed of light.
But about this video I've never really seen anyone saying Ascended Astarion is a "good person"? :00 more like people just defending when people spread misinformation about him? Like that he doesn't have a soul, he doesn't love the player, he's just like Cazador and the only reason we could possibly go down his route is because we sexualise him and objectify him? I've spoken to so many Ace people in the Ascended Astarion community and I as well just don't see sex as a big thing? To even be in a romance with him in Act 3 you will have had to agree to a sexless relationship and that's something I was happy about, I wanted to stick with him forever and always be there for him no matter what. Ascending him was something a lot of us did because he personally asked for our help, and like with the whole Araj thing in Moonrise we wanted to support him and listen to what he wanted unconditionally.
I think the main issue is that the Ascended tags just get filled with so much hate, toxicity and drama so Ascended enjoyers just get really defensive and on edge. I've had numerous times where I've just commented that I like Ascended Astarion and just been called blind, deaf, stupid and loads of other insults and that seems to be a shared experience xDD like there's just so much hate and bullying in the community about liking Astarion the "correct" way in a choose your own adventure, millions of choices game that it's baffling. We all view things differently, and have various perspectives that leads us to picking different options and that's awesome. Variety is the spice of life and all c:
Sorry for the long comment, been in the Ascended community from the start and we mostly just keep to ourselves in private Discords so we don't get insulted constantly :')) great job on your video and love your dragon Sapphire!!! :DD
Agreed! I've experienced similar vitriol from Spawn fans that have a problem that people would like the ascended route for our own personal reasons. Both versions of Astarion are messed up which is what gets me when people want to judge which version is better. I just prefer my version of Astarion at full power, lol.💯
@@GeishaVi yesss!!! :DDD I think so many people ignore that he still has plenty of red flags in his Spawn route, like just pick whatever version you like. Choosing one over the other doesn't make you a "better" or "worse" person xDD
I lost my sense of taste and smell years ago due to COVID and Astarion's line about the wine tasting horrible at the grove party really hit me. Like this dude has not been able to taste food or drink properly for 200 years?? Really makes me think I made the right choice, until you lose something you don't know how meaningful it really is.
Socialisation is pretty much built on meals, going out to eat, celebrating at a restaurant, grabbing a drink together? All stuff that would be nothing but a chore, but he can now enjoy again thanks to Ascending :)) We have 5 senses and smell and taste is 2 important interlinked ones, just because it isn't a visible disability doesn't make it any less important :')))
@@Astriel-nya I fully agree with you! This video feels a bit like she is condescending towards the fans who enjoy Ascended Astarion though.
You can try to make your own points as to why you dislike something and feel like it's bad without needing to be rude and involve other youtuber comments 😓
Liking either side is totally ok as I have always believed it's the same person with different shades. I hope that the next video will be nicer towards at the very least fellow youtubers if not fellow fans of the game & Astarion
Your video ended on my mainpage somehow and I must say nice commentary! I am an Astarion simp and I think that him and Shadowheart have probably the most intricate stories amongst all companions (agree that they did dirty to our Karlach at the beginning but you know, Astarion and SH are more of my taste as stories) I can see in my IMAGINATION, in some dark fantasies enjoying being with A. Astarion to some extent. You know, a not very nice and dark part of me can see how good it would be. But as an adult -over 30- who had some good and bad experiences I can definitely see that he is evil. Lorewise ascended/full vampires are PURE evil. And in my personal view the writers and Neil Newbon's performance shows you how his character changes into a cold, calculated, emotionless brilliantly. Would I date/become friends with someone who is like Spawn Astarion? Probably yes. I've done it. Wasn't toxic - still it wasn't healthy either, didn't work out and me clearly being aware of that ended things. Was my purpose fixing them? No, never. Did I try to help them with their issues? Obviously. Was my purpose not wooing Astarion in the game, I would've personally stay friends with him and even then I wouldn't ascend him, because clearly what he needs is not encouraged to be ascended but some support & help. He doesn't need fixing in my opinion, he needs help. As for the drama, seriously people should acknowledge EVIL is EVIL instead of being apologetic about it. I saw someone in the comments mention Sephiroth for example. Do I blurt "daddy" each time I see him on screen? Yes, I do. Do I like him as a character from series? Obviously. Do I think he is a good guy? Absolutely not. He is evil and he is an evil character that I like. As long as you can recognize evil, toxic and not encourage the bad behaviour in your real life, there's nothing wrong with liking evil fictional characters because they are so damn well written/created.
I saw that first youtube comment beneath a video, and it reminded me of when the Twilight books first came; naive teens /young adults not recognizing abuse and actually wanting that for themselves in real life. Let's keep Ascended Astarion in fantasy-land, and set the bar higher. Internet forums are full of horror stories from women wondering how to make their boyfriend's stop being "mean".
I'm happy the game makers added the freedom option, and didn't pretend that Tav might not be in a very bad place. That he mentioned he forced pleasure on Tav was so gross. Unascended Astarion would have been horrified.
I hate when people make the argument that he is sweet and caring if you don't disagree with him. There is so much victim blaming crammed into that tiny statement.
Ascended Astarion has some very worrying abusive tendencies (control, isolation by enslavement, no tolerance to criticism) and says some messed up shit ('I own your body', 'sex and relationships are all about power' --> r*pe implications). And he says that shit to the person he supposedly loves.
Let's not forget this is still a written character, everything he says is there for a reason.
The vampire bride thing is ridiculous. Someone made a tiktok based on a reddit post and now some people pretend it's canon. All the explanations for how Tav turns into a spawn are in the game, some more hidden than others. Tav is just a spawn. He can control them after the tadpole is gone. Right at the end of the game. The script spells it out: 'The player can't leave, even if they wante to'. He is no Sylas Briarwood from critical role. This is no evil power couple story.
And that rant about Neil and Baudelaire Welch (they/them btw) gives me chills... It's a cult. I have talked to anti-vaxxers who were more reasonable. Seriously.
And even if we completely ignore the romance part of his arc, it's a bad outcome for *him* as a character. It's such a tragic end for him, not even talking about the 7000 souls burning in eternal torment for him 🧛😭
Edit: I am not talking about all A!Astarion fans, just the tiny, loud minority. I think it's important that both outcomes are in the game. It shows the whole picture, what abuse can do to a person. And I can appreaciate A!Astarion for the way he is written, because Rooney is an amazing writer. It's a chilling reminder, that an abuser was a victim too at some point (in most cases). Having revenge power fantasies are part of dealing with the aftermath of abuse. Just a year ago I probably would have been more drawn to his ascension route. I wonder how people's perspective on the character will shift as time goes on.
I don't care about any argument for or against ascended astarion; the way he treats mama K if you play as Karlach origin at the end has ruined him permanently xD
The major problem I have with the Ascended discourse is due to how many people in the fandom have assumed the people who enjoy the character, or diverge Canon with the Ascended version have gone on to harass people and claim they are exploiting abuse survivors and are bad people.
Yes the writer states it's not a good ending, but given how the very nature of fandom is to explore beyond Canon and have fun, not to mention there's a big issue with how people are using mental health advocacy language to moralize why anyone who like the character and likes him being an amoral and evil pos, of being some kind of tradwife abuse apologist.
My problem isn't with Ascended fans, it's basically every person who uses a fictional characters portrayal as an excuse to badger and abuse people.
I've had two boyfriends in the past. One was like Ascended Astarion, the other was like Spawn Astarion. Neither of those relationships lasted in a romantic sense. But one of them is still my friend, while the other I avoid like the plague. I'll leave you guys to guess which one's which.
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Like you said, I think it's absolutely fine to play the ascended Astarion path and enjoy it as a story. Stories can be bleak and sad and evil and still interesting. It's all fine, as long as you don't lie to yourself or pretend this is healthy. I think it's also fine to be into BDSM as pure role play - in these roles, AFAIK the "submissive" is always in control of the limits and it is a sexual thing only.
But it's absolutely weird that some of these fans try to twist the morality around, saying that if we convince Astarion to not ascend, we are being "his new Cazador", being evil and abusing him. I can't believe anyone actually believes that...
If we love someone, we say it as it is. We call them on their bullsh1t. We want to see them overcome their trauma, not be twisted by their trauma.
Though, playing devil's advocate, sometimes you see people being horrible to anyone who likes ascended Astarion route, calling them names, kind of generalizing that anyone who likes the character is deluded and should be ashamed. The bullying does happen.
I personally have trouble even seeing the videos of ascended route sometimes, it can be quite strong. Like when he laughs and calls you stupid for saying you should break up. It's sad to see a character who was witty, funny and yes, mischievous, but had all the potential to heal and become better, instead turn into pure evil, and that's why the story is good and interesting. He doesn't even enjoy sex anymore, as the narrator points out at some point.
As someone who did ascend him, for me, i understand that im not the best mentally. I also know im a people pleaser and its easy to manipulate me. But, this is a game. Thats all it is, i understand that ablot of comments have been made by ascended fans that you disagree with and are attacking, but not everyone who ascends him is an awful person. There were times in this video where you showed compassion to those making those comments. But a lot of this was just critizing. I guess im just not the targeted audience. I just wish there wasnt as much negativity towards this situation, from either side. I have a feeling that im going to be ripped to shreds after saying this, but thats okay. Because its a game. Did i project unhealthy fantasies during my gameplay? Yes. But thats all it is, just a game.
I, as a spawn fan, am completely fine with most ascendant fans. Sadly the vocal side of the ascendant fans tends to be very provoking with videos called "proof that he loves tav" which is just slightly hurting to those who are or where victims to real abuse. The biggest problem I and many others have is not agknowledging with a distanced pov that he is abusive and as said in the vid obessive. People downplay actual abuse. It is not real and just shown through media, but despite that it is still abuse. People also don't downplay murder, theft or torture which is also in the game. People still agknowledge those things as what they are.
It seems to me at least that many ascendant fans are not able to seperate themselfes from the game. They disregart facts, quotes, say that the spawn ending is fake (which really hurts because that ending gave so much people hope that even at the darkest times there is a way to get better). For many it gets personal because Astarion's story is a journey of healing and seing people not just defending abuse, but claiming the spawn ending is BS, attacking the writers, wanting them to get fired for saying the ascendant ending (where you kill 7k people and doom their souls to endless suffering in the hells) is the bad one.
As i said it is okay to enjoy bad endings if you want to. But agknowledging them as bad is what ascendant fans sometimes lack imo. Not all, but a very loud groub.
@@lisdraconis2212 I will say as someone who has been through an abusive relationship, it shows that I still wear rose colored sunglasses.
As for the characters themselves, I didn't want to spoil the end for myself and yet I saw one clip where it looked like Astarion died to the sun. It broke my heart and I didn't want that ending for him. That's why I ascended him, I love his character too much for him to get that ending. (I know now that is not the case)
Abuse is a very real thing and shouldn't down played, I agree 100%. I have separated myself from the game and just like indulging in more of the darker fantasies. I like seeing the things of ascended Astarion. I think it's gone too far for people to be fighting over it even if it was the ascended ones who started it. I just didn't like a lot of the more negative attitude in this video 🤷. But I liked and agree with your comment
@@TeamPVPWolvesEven if Astarion stays as spawn there is an item in 5e that canonically can make vampires walk in the sun! Minsc refers to this vaguely in one of his dialogues at the end. Either way, even as a spawn Astarion has hope of staying in the sun again.
@@ettaetta439 WAIT FR? THATS AMAZING 😍
He's toxic and i do know it. im not delusional about it. He the type you mess with not marry
Unless he kills you before you even get to marry someone else...
Good for you lol, at least you know it.
true it's cause im into alt so i know what i like@@ettaetta439
Just saw the first comment you quote is from Nyloth... why am I not surprised...
Lol I thought the same... it's sad that I am starting to recognize certain names.
@@Louves192 Nothing against them personally. But how they treat some people is really not good.
This is giving me ACOTAR flashbacks...
I guess if i allway compair my partner to people like jeffrey dahmer, josef fritzl or ted bundy, my partner will allways look like a sweetheart.
100%. Think Ascended Astarion is hot all you want (and Neil is clearly having fun), but that IS the EVIL ending for him. That's him perpetuating the cycle of abuse (and potentially exceeding it over time as he's now more powerful than Cazador and can walk in the sun). Ascendant Astarion is the abused *becoming* the abuser. No, he's not torturing Tav, but who can say what will happen after centuries of power has corrupted him further? He already willingly murdered thousands of people in order to get that power in the first place- the same thing Cazador was going to do. What happens when Tav wants to leave and he doesn't want her to? It's not going to be pretty. He might not physically torture them, but you don't have to physically hurt someone to be an abuser.
Ascended Astarion doesn't even allow Tav to break up with him- because they're no longer an equal to him at that point. Unless they've changed it you can't even remain with him unless you agree to let him turn you- into his SPAWN....which a master has complete control over.
Spawn Astarion is the good ending (and the only one I'm ever going with), because that's an Astarion who genuinely loves Tav as an equal and it's the ending where he chose to heal from his trauma and end the cycle of abuse. This is the path of positive character growth.
My first time playing I let him Ascend because in my heart I felt he deserved it. Deserved to rid himself of hunger and to see his reflection and walk in the sun without fear. I wanted that for him, then I saw how he behaved and noped the hell out REAL fast.
Neil’s BOMBASTIC SIDE EYE was everything 😭😭😭😭😭😭
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I thought the epilogue would make unhinged Ascended Astarion girlies see the light.. nope.
i honestly busted out at that one tumblr post saying Ascended Astarion fans get “bullied”. meanwhile, they’re the same people who claimed that Larian was lying about Shadowheart being the most popular romantic option.
also, the way these people react SO extremely, so passionately about any comment against ascended astarion shows that THEY KNOW that it’s inappropriate to justify him as much as they do. they know, they just don’t care cause they’re stuck in an illusion of their “golden cage”
Lmao this feels like swinging a bat at a hornet’s nest… but I agree! I ascended him once to see the romance scene and honestly hated it. Like I immediately reloaded and watched the graveyard scene again. I love the conversation he has about being equals and how happy he is that you accept him just as he is.
🧛♀️ 😭
Astarion "likes" Tav, but only gives you nice things because you're "his." Its like decorating a house. His love towards Tav is similar to loving a dog. The dog has no say in what it has or does. I know some people love their pets but the love for your pets should not be the same as the love for a partner.
Seeee I liked astarian and then he mmmmm broke I guess and started getting possessive and I’m like I’m out
Can't believe people are getting mad at this take. People are arguing that Astarion's "never been a good guy" and that Ascended Astarion is "just as bad" and so that makes it ok... that's completely incorrect?! Spawn Astarion isn't trying to possess you and keep you chained to him, and while he says and approves of some icky situations when you deal with other slaves/victims, he's clearly not acting that way towards you if you romance him. He even has the decency to let you go pretty amicably if you don't want to continue the relationship, and obviously doesn't treat you like an object. Liking Ascended Astarion narratively is one thing, but trying to make EXCUSES by turning his abusive behavior into some sort of cutesy, lovey-dovey thing to make you feel justified in liking him is actually horrible. If you want that kind of true wholesomeness without being a slave, stick with Spawn Astarion or even the rest of the companions.
Let's you go amicably by threatening you with 7000 hungry spawns? 😂
@@bug-13 I meant if you choose to break up with him before having anything to do with the ascension. Ascended Astarion doesn't let you break up with him easily, or at least, once you let him turn you.
@@beccazach You can break up with him before finishing the brain off wum
@@bug-13 … that’s what I was saying.
They’re mad at you on Twitter about this video lmfao, the hit dogs are hollering
Of course they are. They say that they're the innocent ones not hurting anyone and then I get a hoard of comments calling me ugly and disgusting and bullying my looks, instead of any actual argument (though all actual "arguments" I've gotten are just people telling me I'm wrong and a bully and that's it). I'm definitely the problem here, though LOL
@@swordinthestone313 I'm really sorry you got all those horrible comments :((( no one deserves that
@@swordinthestone313I’m sorry you’ve gotten such vileness hurled at you. It takes a certain type of person to behave this way and unfortunately that type of person is the sort that Ascended Astarion has attracted. Idk how they can try and claim that they’re the victims after attempting to get a co-writer fired for doing their job, writing a 5k word thesis on why Neil’s reaction to “#1 Ascended Astarion Apologist” is bullying, and harassing an artist over cute fanart. Chronically online brainrot