I bought Danny's kit for this speaker; the arguing over his kits intrigued me. He addresses all the shortcomings of the factory network, connections, cabinet, and maximizes the performance from your stock drivers. He responded to two of my phone calls quickly; make sure you strip the coating off of the inductors. His measurements only reveal the objective improvements of the performance of the response curves. The immeasurable improvements are instantaneously noticeable improvements in spaciousness, clarity, response, and speaker articulation. He improves your speakers without compromising what you enjoy from them. When you install his kit, you'll have a greater appreciation for his engineering and design work. Thanks for you awesome service, Danny, and I look forward to installing your kit to improve my RF7 III towers.
When I saw pictures of that centre channel in the Klipsch lineup it never dawned on me that a mainstream manufacturer could be so reckless as to have al four woofers operating over the same frequency range.Even average DIYers would do better.And psycho frequency response to boot.
even with this crossover, whics looks like a huge improvement, this is still a flawed center channel just due to the wwtww layout. that dispersion pattern blows, and it's the most important speaker in a HT system. this would have to be mated to a home theater with a small listening positions, like a stadium seating of 2 over 2
The engineers probably wanted to do this and the bean counters wouldn’t let them. These companies don’t do things by accident. I wouldn’t be surprised if the designers were instructed to just slap something together using the same parts and layout as the front mains to keep the cost down. And that’s what they have done. Taken an existing two way 3-driver tower speaker design, flipped it on it’s side and added a second pair of woofers. Job done.
As usual, I'm impressed by how skilled you are at modifying speakers to make them perform better than they do stock. Really good results you got out of this project.
WOW, that is a MASSIVE improvement, Danny! Why is it so hard for these major manufacturers with engineering staff and testing facilities to get a loudspeaker right???
So true. A single Electro Voice FM 12C serves me very well indeed. (12" coaxial passive Floor Monitor) Far higher efficiency, 8 ohm load and 200W continuous rated quality workhorse... unlike this poorly designed Show Pony.... or maybe just a 'Showbag'.
Having worked as a roadie in the past we used to use vertical speaker arrays to obtain wide horizontal dispersion. Having the speaker array at right angles as this speaker does seems perverse and is confirmed by your measurement of vertical dispersion.
I bought the x voce and after I build the crossover. I laid the parts on a blanket on the floor between my Klipsch r8000f just to test them. I connect the drivers with some cheap Aluminium core cable. I played some Atmos music and set the center on +6db 80hz crossover for sub. No measurements no calibration. On a cheap denon x1600h. And this on the floor laying stuff simply crushed my 8000f. Then I swapped the 8000f with The two x onwall stuff laying on the ground and even my women said that this little things sound much better that this big towers. Now she say we need new speakers. Before that she hated my Hifi hobby now she's in the game 😅 The problem is now is I don't like the 8000 anymore. It feels like to listen to an old radio. I think I have to buy the x static or the oticas. I have a bad feeling to make an advisement because I want this stuff to stay available 😅 but Danny's stuff is so good. I paid an big extra amount for shipping to Germany and Im still very happy. Save your money if you want to buy Klipsch and go for the x kits trust me. When I'm RDY I post a build vid. Sorry for my bad English Thank you Danny
It would be helpful if the model of the speaker was in the description along with the cost of the associated upgrade kit. It is interesting that the crossover design for your kit is similar to the 2.5 way design for the Klipsch RP-64 III. I am sure you are using better parts, but I am curious if they cleaned up the response curve in their design as well.
Lots of good info. Could you sometime cover the equipment you are currently using. I know the speakers you use but the heavily modded DAC and pre-amp and amps. Maybe just a little bit of what the system uses to be as good as this system is. I would be very interested in what you have done for the best bang for the buck.
The best thing for a center channel is 2 or 3 identical smaller center channels that have controlled dispersion to negate interference with each other. Better still if they're each full range? IDK. Live concerts do this at big venues with short throw for closer audience & long throw for distant audience.
So, we got: - Flimsy resonant cabinet - bottom of the barrel parts - and last but not least a setup (4 woofers spaces out almost a meter) that defeats the purpose (off axis clarity). You didn't go there, but if I remember correctly those woofers have bad characteristics on their own. Is there anything that could be wrong but isn't?
having watched all the other upgrades and become familiar with the recurring issues with Klipsch and B&W, i could see what he would do with this one as soon as i saw the driver layout!. Obviously the Klipsch 'engineers' hadn't been watching any of the other upgrade videos!
You think the Klipsch engineers don’t know all this? They obviously know this too, but they need to make maximum profit and acceptable enough sound to fit the marketing slogans.
@@ekimandersom4478 They can choose to make an accurate speaker and change their marketing slogans accordingly. but clearly they choose not to. And by making a good speaker they;lll get good reviews, sell loads and make money. The same has been said of B& W but they both have a house sound which some people seem to like. If they weren't already great, then owners wouldnt be sending to Danny for fixing.
Friend of mine had the original Synergy line of speakers for home theater back in the college days. We loved it for parties and movies. Though, I always had issues hearing the voices when in surround mode. This probably explains why. Also lot of listening fatigue with that system. I loved Klipsch because they were loud.. before I started listening to guys like Danny. I believe the Klipsch surround sound stuff is all made over seas and not really Klipsch products, they just sort of import it and rebrand? Not 100% sure on how that works. I have heard some of their Heritage line of speakers and those are quite something given the right environment.
i would love a kit for my polk RTI8's but wish you could do also martin logan lxi16 too do you have a list so i can hunt for some, should you hate my speaker...lol great vids great teacher!
Marketing, marketing, marketing. Visually impress the rubes and damn the quality of fidelity. Mammon over love. Founder, audio pioneer and enthusiast Paul Klipsch is rolling over in his grave.
I have this center channel speaker with a pair of RF-7 IIIs. I absolutely love it! I have it powered with Emotiva Differential Amp. Does great. I mainly just hear the 1.75” tweeter working, to be honest. The tweeter sounds so good for dialogue.
Most dialogue is normally in the range of the woofers, which are only decent if you're within 10-15°. if you're not within that sweet spot, they fall apart quickly
OK, this one looks good. Its very important to have a well engineered center speaker, and it takes both research (or luck) and skill to get this kind of performance from a large center, like this one. Yes, you could just sell it, etc. but in this case, how do you know your new replacement will perform any better? Just because you spent more? Nope, sorry. - Well done, Danny. 👍
Danny, been watching for years, love your stuff, as for the Klipsch lineup, haven't seen but, have you done anything with the Promedia desktop speakers? I used them as surrounds, and had a good experience in a small room, used them as 2.1 for computer listening with correction, some basic measurements, had a plan, then my life went sideways, trying now/still to get back to, well, having a place to even use them, as small as they are. Would be VERY interested on your take. Best Wish's.......
If I were to get a meter/meters what is the restistance range, capacitance, inductance range that the meter need to have for this testing the components?
5th like! 😅 I enjoy these videos a lot. Keep them coming please. In fact I was just about to order a pair of XLS Encores last year but transport cost to Spain with flatpack and lack of space and tools at home (I live in a flat) to build them did put me off. I ended up with a pair of Pylon Ruby monitors instead.
Just one question Danny: Would it be possible to do some measuring with these woofers when only two of them are driven, whilst the other two work as passive radiators? I m curious like hell about how they sound and how the measurement would be... just how the curves would look...I would not be astounded if this Center would do a better job with the outer two woofers just being passive radiators! Money, in this case, would not be a big point for me, because, I see a lot of Passive radiators on the market that cost almost the same as normal woofers would cost, so I would not mind that!
I'm pretty sure Danny will dismiss this idea, passive radiators usually need more moving mass, compliance and excursion capability than the drivers to work properly, secondly TS parameters of the drivers combined with cabinet volume may not favour a PR, or vented alignment for that matter. You could try gluing a heavy washer and adding perhaps a 22 or even 10R resistor across the vc, but that's about it.
I agree w your thinking, generally. However, as u may know, passives are usually twice the surface area w a much needed lower resonant frequency than the primary drivers. Also, this may not be a two way but rather a two and a half way design. Unless we see the xo, we dont really know. If he simply disconnected two of the woofers, the impedance would change and he would need to redesign the crossover as well. But again, I agree, a 5 driver center is not the easy button. ;)
@@paulb4661 By the way: There is no deeper reason for doing the measurement I am talking about. It´s totally not important if it makes any sense or not. It´s just about HOW THE CURVE CHANGES,, and not if it fixes any problems. That´s a completely different story! If I would paint the membranes of the woofers with white paint - in order to make them look better (to my wife's taste or so) I would make measurements too! Not because it would be so important to me, but just to see if and how the curve changes due to the paint! That´s all. nothing important, but just to investigate! That´s the way to gain experience! It doesn´t change the run of the stars through the milky way, but it´s fun to just know if and how things get changed through small diversities!
@@paulb4661 Maybe you don´t know yet, but passive radiators are simply Woofers without a motor! That´s all... You also can transmute every normal PR into a woofer by adding a magnet and a voice coil! It´s all about equal mass lol... Only you are not allowed to revive the dead to the living!
Hey I’m trying to do this upgrade to my speaker. But this is my first time doing anything like this. Is there a video or something that can walk me through the whole process
i might be wrong but the before and after graphs for spectral decay and impedance seems opposite/swapped to me, i just had to overlook the labelling and follow Danny's explanation to match the visual..
I'm pretty sure when He makes an upgraded crossover, He usually just connects it all to a single set of tube connectors. Short of using external amplifiers I've never seen an AVR that could bi-amp the center.
We generally recommend against bi-amp/bi-wiring as there's rarely anything to be gained vs a good single set of inputs. Plus it also means you only need one cable per speaker.
Try the JBL Studio 520c. It's bad. I had to cover one of the woofers with a thick cloth to try and make it a 2.5 way. The woofers are too far apart and they sound like they're just playing full range. It sounds crunchy and not smooth, it lacks the smoothness of the everything else in the Studio 5 series range. No one should buy them, I don't think even Danny can fix it.
Good stuff Dan, let me give you an idea and would make a major video because every reviewer out there apparently is afraid to do it for some reason and it's a must eventually, and alot of us true KLH fans from when it was all handmade in their factory and designed by Henry Kloss, I'm sure would love to see your analysis, bring in the original old model 5 (with new proper capacitors, and healthy sealed woofers) and let's see how it stacks up against the new model 5 on the charts and to your ear, why has a reviewer not took the new model 5 in a shootout against the original? That just makes no sense to me and would a banger of a shootout and would bring the history of one of the pioneers of engineers to some people who aren't in the know.
That god forsaken 6k range that so many tweeter love to scream at, that's where all the sibilance is centered. Even when you flatten it out, a horn tweeter just breaths at ya. Cup your hands over your mouth and exhale very hard, and that sound is every horn tweeter I've ever heard. Airy! A good silk dome or a decent AMT can't be beat in the tweeter department in my opinion. Everything else is just Sssssss Tinggggg or Haaaaaa. I'd still take this speaker if it was given to me, but I'll never buy anything Klipsch with my money. I just don't like horn tweeters, period. But you made a real nice improvement with this, good job man! Cheers 🍻
@@thePrisoner1000 : I think coaxial's are the way to go for so many things for at least 2 reasons. But everything has a use case. Me, just personally speaking, I don't like horns generally speaking. I'm currently rocking a quartet of JBL Studio 530's with the biggest and ugliest horn tweeter that I've ever seen. I use these in a 9.1 channel home theater. They consume one wall, the rest of my gear consumes the opposite wall. I do like my JBL's overall, but I do not like the horns! All horns create this megaphone kinda sound and it always sounds like it somewhere. The first thing that always jumps out at me in a horn tweeter, is the breath and airiness of the megaphone condition. I just don't like the sound, and anything shaped this way will sound this way. Like a megaphone, to my ear holes.... I firmly 'think' anyway, that a properly designed speaker will faithfully reproduce accurately any music that you play through it, period. That is what I expect for my money, regardless of price. Cheers 🍻
Good horns, well setup and running off good electronics absolutely do not sound like that, at all. Please don’t take me to be a high end snob, I’m not, I’m a broke dad who loves pro audio speakers. A sensibly priced compression driver and horn from the likes of Eminence, B&C, JBL (Professional) etc, will wipe the floor with those cheap home theatre horn tweeters in terms of sound quality and SPL. The key is setup with a good quality crossover and electronics. Horns will really bring out the flaws in the rest of the system, thats what they do. If you have what should be a reasonable quality horn but you’re getting a really bad sound from it, I can almost garauntee it’s something upstream screwing up the signal and the horn is just telling you all about it. Please stay open minded and don’t write off a whole category of speakers based on your bad experience, you might find a lot of joy in horns down the road when you hear a system that is better setup.
@@KingOath: The so-called "professional" audio gear is even worse! The horns are bigger. I just don't like em because they all sound like hot air to me. It's a physical byproduct of their shape, they all suffer from it in every price range. I really like my JBL's overall, but I have to pull a couple db in the 1.5 - 2.5 khz range to hide the horn somewhat. To each their own, but horns just ain't for me regardless of brand or price.
@@KingOath Never bother discussing horns with a horn hater because they will always tell you they hear a megaphone effect if they SEE the horn. It's a mental association thing. Put the speakers behind an acoustically transparent screen and a good many horn haters will love a well designed horn loaded speaker. Even when they don't they never guess the speakers they were listening to were horn loaded. As I've mentioned here before a good friend of mine used to work for a custom audio and theater shop and they had exactly the setup I mentioned. For customers who couldn't decide or didn't know what they wanted they would play the various speakers they carried behind one of their theater screens. Was it scientific and strictly controlled? No. But each speaker was placed to sound it's best and to give the customer an accurate representation of what they would get in their home. Their shop carried Klipsch RP and Heritage line speakers, as well as the usual suspects from Paradigm, B&W and Golden Ear. They also carried JBL Synthesis systems and Martin Logan just to have something different. Most folks had no idea concerning speaker brands which is why they liked the blind testing. They could judge with their ears alone. Whether audio snoots like it or not more than 60% of the shops sales were Klipsch speakers, followed by Paradigm and B&W. People loved the JBL Synthesis speakers but not the price. They rarely sold a pair of Golden Ear speakers and eventually dropped ML altogether because they only sold something like 5 pairs in three years. They brought in Revel a couple of years before they sold out and that line sold better but was still last place. Audio critics truly do not matter to real world buyers.
Hi danny. I would like to measure and make my own new crossovers for the fun of it. what basic tool do I need? Multimeter? LCR Meter? Basic Free software? Entry Level Mic? I have some Wharfadale 7.2 diamonds. ( Ive been building sub enclosures for 20 yrs so, im in the area of audio but i dont have the crossover skillset yet. im going to dig in asap.
You need a measuring system first and foremost. The Pocket Clio system is a good one for a first timer. Then you need a lot of inductors, capacitors, and resistors of every value.
That would require a polarity flip on the outer woofers, and that would be a be a problem as they share the same air space. So I had to get a little crafty with the crossover design.
@@dannyrichie9743 So does this mean that if the 2 woofers at the ends were in the same chamber and the woofers more in the center were inside another chamber, it would be possible to create a 2 1/2 way crossover and so the speaker would be better? I'm asking this because I want to learn more and more from your work. I'm building my own speakers for my Home Theater.
@@luischaveseletricista7074 That doesn't mean it would sound better, but if they were in their own air spaces then they could be made into a true 2.5 way design.
The biggest issue with this is that the room you used to get the frequency response is not in a anechoic chamber so the frequency is specifically for the room you used. Placing this center channel speaker in a different room is going to give the frequency response that's totally different than your test results.
There are very few companies I distrust more than Klipsch. They have made it painfully obvious over the years that they are in buisness to make money, not to make quality speakers.
Those numbers are really nothing more than marketing jargon. There is no real standard in measuring distortion, and no good way to get good comparable results outside of measuring in an anechoic chamber. The distortion numbers also really have no relation to sound quality unless they are highlighting a problem.
Hey Danny... off topic... but did I hear you mention you're developing a "classic-style" 10" or 12" 3-way?? I've always fantasized about owning a classic JBL-meets-Harbeth high end monitor.
Sounds like this centre channel speaker would sound much better for the listeners if it just placed vertically than horizontally after your mods. According to your off vertical axis graph.
I was thinking the same thing. This type of “center” channel or mid bass drivers should be pointed upward/vertically and behind the TV screen. Some set up designs allow this. Oh and I knew this without having to look at any graph. Just looking at the speaker design is a dead give away. But one last note. I would try it out vertically even “before” any mods if it was already purchased. Why spend the extra money. Most systems lack two things IMO: 1. Drum kick mid bass/thump. The drummer is usually in the middle of the stage 2. Low sound stage level. Having a center channel below the TV screen only compounds the issue and lowers the sound stage. It’s like you’re in the upper levels in a concert. Having this type of center channel may help in both the above. Pulling the main speakers away from the wall helps tremendously in establishing proper sound stage also but you won’t necessary have that mid bass drummer kick if main left and right speakers are a bit small. Klipsch design intention seems more about forward facing and looks though but the overall design concept is something I would be interested in to place behind my flat screen TV which is obviously on a stand and not wall mounted and thus has room behind.
Would an upgrade like this change the sound of the front stage? For example I have the rf7iii, would this then change the sound so much that it’s like putting a different brand of center channel altogether.
... and ideally, identical to front L ,R, SL & SR with a vertical driver arrangement in a cabinet behind an acoustically transparent projector screen, perhaps ?
@@dmark2639 - The issue is multiple woofers that cancel out each other depending on where you sit. Coaxial will only fix the time alignment between midrange and high frequencies
@@Enemji No...I mean use 1 coaxial speaker for the center channel that plays the entire 50hz-20khz range. No multiple horizontal woofers. I'd set the crossover to the sub at 80hz. Then use identical coaxial speakers for the other channels too.
Is anyone at Klipsch watching these repairs of their junk? They should be and having recalls of all their failed attempts at speakers. I would never buy them after seeing what I have seen here on multiple occasions.
It can actually still play down a bit lower lower, but if it were pushed up higher, the off-axis results would be much worse, closer to that of the stock response. Even with the 2.5 way design, due to how far apart the drivers are from the tweeter. Plus center channels are designed for dialogue in TVs/movies, so most information will be coming from the woofers rather than the tweeter, with the exception of some female voices, which also dont need to be as dynamic as the rest of the speakers.
The overall power rating is diminished somewhat. But it's a tradeoff that looks well worth it. Also, the overall sensitivity is also reduced, but still above 90db, so there's still plenty of 'oomph' in it. The new off axis response alone is probably worth all that, imho.
Surprised to see the 4 woofers playing the same, while the RP504C has the outer woofers playing lower than the 2 inner woofers. So what you fixed on the RC-64 III is 'standard' on the RP504C. Very strange from Klipsch
I never seen Cerwin Vega Speakers come your way. considering Cerwin Vega was huge in the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s. They still make Home Audio Speakers plus PA Speakers. Can you please do some videos on Cerwin Vega?
That's exactly what these do stock.. MMTMM designs are easily the worst performing design of the bunch for center channels. The best are coaxial drivers, followed by a tweeter + single mid woofer in the center, with 2 woofers on the outside. But most models on the market are MTM designs, which only get worse the further apart the drivers are..
@@jasonkillsformomy looking online, the VP160 looks like a pretty solid design. The VP180 is going to be an absolute disaster.. the fact they used 2 tweeters is just asking for problems...
@@jasonkillsformomy I'm not surprised, Danny has measured an older Axiom model in the past that also had 2 tweeters. It was a disaster, both on and off axis. The other model he looked at was better but still not great. Two tweeters only makes sense when you have one facing forward and the other facing backwards on the back. Two tweeters facing forward is only ever going to create a comb-filtering mess of a response.
I have the Klipsch RC64III and it sounds like the movies when I go to the theater, simply amazing. Just my opinion. Most people that buy this one are very happy.
I only heard them at Ron Brenay's house when he was doing a review of them. I didn't give them a real evaluation. They sounded fairing balanced to me, but were a little on the dull side. Nothing bad stood out, but nothing wowed me either. Hobbs (Hobbs works for me) took them home for a little while and heard them in his system. His feedback should be a little better than mine.
Hey Danny! Interesting that Klipsch’s own website claims it’s a 2.5 way crossover from the factory. Are they lying to us? “2 1/2 WAY NETWORK CROSSOVER DESIGN The sophisticated design of the RC-64 III network attenuates the outer woofers output at higher frequencies to minimize horizontal interference off-axis to the loudspeaker. This maintains a wide and even sound distribution - ensuring each listener hears the center channel information exactly as intended.”
Sensitivity went down more than 6dB. If you managed to use a 50W amp you now need at least a 200W amp after the modification. Could a cheap D.I.Y solution be to disconnect the outer woofers, that'll drop the level 3dB, put a resistor in series with the tweeter to balance its level, that will make a lighter load on the crossover and perhaps lower its frequency, bridge the resistor with a capacitor to raise that 10k-20k range if you do not prefer the cinema drop, that they probably put there intentionally. A quick $20 modification.
That was pretty clever. I like it. Funny how so many reviewerslike them right out of the box. Not just Kliosch, other poor performers too. Everything they review is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
The four woofers don't cross over to each other. They play on top of each other. They have separate filters and the outer ones don't play quite as high, but they still play way to high. Let's pretend that there is only a 400Hz difference in how high they play. That's nothing. They are still playing the same ranges. The off axis measured responses clearly show them causing massive amounts of cancellation in the horizontal off axis. The actual crossover point of the group of woofers to the tweeter is about 1,500Hz. This is such a massive amount of cancellation that it will cause a drop in output if the listener simply moves over one seat on the couch. Also, the mass cancellation effects the direct on axis adversely as it creates an extremely uneven room response. Throw in ringing, peaks in the tweeter response, cabinet resonances, and smearing caused by poor quality parts on top of the messed up off axis response it is is pretty much a total disaster.
@@josephmccoy2129 Proof of an intentional lie? If he assumed they are all playing the same frequency and are not, then he made an incorrect assumption. That said, do you know anything at all about speaker design? Clearly there are major issues with the off axis response of those speakers as they were designed even if they are 2.5’s.
Hi Danny, I actually have a legitimate question for you today,.... I have a simple 1.2 inch silk dome tweeter, what would a minimalistic parts list look like for this using some of your high quality parts? Instead of the tiny cap and resistor that are on it. It is part of a coaxial driver, would you need the woofer section along with the tweeter to take proper measurements? Thanks!
@@dannyrichie9743 I have the emotiva t 2 plus and I sound pretty good but they don't really start to bloom until an uncomfortable volume something that rebuilding a x over might help?
@@1994shomn I have another Emotiva in the shop right now. They measure pretty well, but the parts quality is very poor. They were pretty lightly constructed too. So some parts quality upgrades and some No Rez goes a long way with those.
It sounds like sensitivity by itself has no meaning unless you take impedance into account. I've always believe that Klipsch were easy to drive - it sounds to me like they are easy to drive into distortion.😃 If a speaker is 98db sensitive but has an average impedance of 2 in the 100 to 400 range that you can't even use a sub or a filter to effectively bi-amp (take the load off onto the sub's amp), then you're going to need some powerful gear to power that.
Yep, you're right... Those impedance dips and subsequent high current draw... no bueno. Not only is it a burden on the amplifier, it also results in higher harmonic and intermod distortions in the driver's output. Next, throw in the lossy thermal compression from the elevated current... the non-linearities add up.
475 retail to improve, let's ay klipsch could get those parts in bulk for 180, now take that 180 x say 150k speakers old worldwide, that is alot of profit and mark up they would have to deal with. That's why they cheap out, pencil pushing accountants have the pressure of maximizing profits vs the designers and we know how wins there.
That's what I have, but it can be a challenge getting it placed. An easier alternative is to use a regular pair of speakers for the center, bookshelf or floor standing. The center channel is mono, so if you put a speaker on each side of the screen, you get a cenrer image just like if you were using a dedicated center channel.
The joy of doing such an upgrade is mainly in the way you are going to do this. The GR Research upgrades are not that expensive, relatively easy to do, and they are self-explaining step by step! And this is what a job needs to feel great! So said,: It doesn´t matter what step you are in at the upgrade, you k ow what comes next, and why you are doing this step! That´s awesome! The learn curve improves by doing these upgrades, and the results help you to understand what you did! By the way: The videos are instructive too! That´s something highly recommended! OH I LOVE IT!
The cabinet is sealed, so there is no port. So disconnecting the will make them act as passive radiators, but they won't be properly tuned as the airspace is too small for a ported/PR design. Plus a usable PR needs to have 2x the throw or 2x the surface are of the woofers which are playing, which isn't the case with this design.
Polk seems to be doing better things with there crossovers than Klipsh right now. But Klipsh has been quick to update there models and fix them as of recently
wouldnt this speaker be better with two bass drivers instead of four. Put the money in better drivers and crossovers? In most theater setups one is only running them to 80hz anyway
The funny thing is a coaxial driver does a good job for vocal clarity, off axis response and much smaller! IMO, the center channel speaker is the most important speaker for movies.
I bought Danny's kit for this speaker; the arguing over his kits intrigued me.
He addresses all the shortcomings of the factory network, connections, cabinet, and maximizes the performance from your stock drivers.
He responded to two of my phone calls quickly; make sure you strip the coating off of the inductors.
His measurements only reveal the objective improvements of the performance of the response curves.
The immeasurable improvements are instantaneously noticeable improvements in spaciousness, clarity, response, and speaker articulation. He improves your speakers without compromising what you enjoy from them.
When you install his kit, you'll have a greater appreciation for his engineering and design work.
Thanks for you awesome service, Danny, and I look forward to installing your kit to improve my RF7 III towers.
Great comments
When I saw pictures of that centre channel in the Klipsch lineup it never dawned on me that a mainstream manufacturer could be so reckless as to have al four woofers operating over the same frequency range.Even average DIYers would do better.And psycho frequency response to boot.
even with this crossover, whics looks like a huge improvement, this is still a flawed center channel just due to the wwtww layout. that dispersion pattern blows, and it's the most important speaker in a HT system. this would have to be mated to a home theater with a small listening positions, like a stadium seating of 2 over 2
The engineers probably wanted to do this and the bean counters wouldn’t let them. These companies don’t do things by accident. I wouldn’t be surprised if the designers were instructed to just slap something together using the same parts and layout as the front mains to keep the cost down. And that’s what they have done. Taken an existing two way 3-driver tower speaker design, flipped it on it’s side and added a second pair of woofers. Job done.
Thank-you very much, Danny. We appreciate your time, effort and knowledge. Sincerely from Canada🔉🔊
As usual, I'm impressed by how skilled you are at modifying speakers to make them perform better than they do stock. Really good results you got out of this project.
Another great example, Danny! Keep up the awesome work.
Damn do I love watching your videos! Saves me sooo much time. Thank you.
At the price these cost why would they do this???????????
Thanks for your great educational videos ❤
Another great video Danny, thanks
WOW, that is a MASSIVE improvement, Danny! Why is it so hard for these major manufacturers with engineering staff and testing facilities to get a loudspeaker right???
What engineering staff are we talking about? That's $$$, not happening.
Don't ask the engineers, ask the accountants.
Its hard to beat a coaxial speaker for a center channel.
You're right, and even more so in a small room where speakers are closer together.
So true.
A single Electro Voice FM 12C serves me very well indeed. (12" coaxial passive Floor Monitor)
Far higher efficiency, 8 ohm load and 200W continuous rated quality workhorse... unlike this poorly designed Show Pony.... or maybe just a 'Showbag'.
Great job! ❤️❤️
Having worked as a roadie in the past we used to use vertical speaker arrays to obtain wide horizontal dispersion. Having the speaker array at right angles as this speaker does seems perverse and is confirmed by your measurement of vertical dispersion.
I bought the x voce and after I build the crossover. I laid the parts on a blanket on the floor between my Klipsch r8000f just to test them. I connect the drivers with some cheap Aluminium core cable. I played some Atmos music and set the center on +6db 80hz crossover for sub. No measurements no calibration. On a cheap denon x1600h. And this on the floor laying stuff simply crushed my 8000f. Then I swapped the 8000f with The two x onwall stuff laying on the ground and even my women said that this little things sound much better that this big towers. Now she say we need new speakers. Before that she hated my Hifi hobby now she's in the game 😅 The problem is now is I don't like the 8000 anymore. It feels like to listen to an old radio. I think I have to buy the x static or the oticas.
I have a bad feeling to make an advisement because I want this stuff to stay available 😅 but Danny's stuff is so good. I paid an big extra amount for shipping to Germany and Im still very happy.
Save your money if you want to buy Klipsch and go for the x kits trust me.
When I'm RDY I post a build vid.
Sorry for my bad English
Thank you Danny
Sounds like now I just need to send you some matching X-Statik's.
I like the tone of this video, nice work danny, good looking graphs on this one as well,
It would be helpful if the model of the speaker was in the description along with the cost of the associated upgrade kit. It is interesting that the crossover design for your kit is similar to the 2.5 way design for the Klipsch RP-64 III. I am sure you are using better parts, but I am curious if they cleaned up the response curve in their design as well.
He mentioned model # at very beginning, fyi.
Lots of good info. Could you sometime cover the equipment you are currently using. I know the speakers you use but the heavily modded DAC and pre-amp and amps. Maybe just a little bit of what the system uses to be as good as this system is. I would be very interested in what you have done for the best bang for the buck.
The best thing for a center channel is 2 or 3 identical smaller center channels that have controlled dispersion to negate interference with each other. Better still if they're each full range? IDK. Live concerts do this at big venues with short throw for closer audience & long throw for distant audience.
I've always wondered about using a 3-way crossover in a situation like this, so the outermost speakers are only active for the lowest range.
Everything that shines isnt allways gold...
So, we got:
- Flimsy resonant cabinet
- bottom of the barrel parts
- and last but not least a setup (4 woofers spaces out almost a meter) that defeats the purpose (off axis clarity).
You didn't go there, but if I remember correctly those woofers have bad characteristics on their own.
Is there anything that could be wrong but isn't?
'Is there anything that could be wrong but isn't?' - marketing?!
Nice to see such a nice improvement
having watched all the other upgrades and become familiar with the recurring issues with Klipsch and B&W, i could see what he would do with this one as soon as i saw the driver layout!. Obviously the Klipsch 'engineers' hadn't been watching any of the other upgrade videos!
You think the Klipsch engineers don’t know all this?
They obviously know this too, but they need to make maximum profit and acceptable enough sound to fit the marketing slogans.
@@ekimandersom4478 They can choose to make an accurate speaker and change their marketing slogans accordingly. but clearly they choose not to. And by making a good speaker they;lll get good reviews, sell loads and make money. The same has been said of B& W but they both have a house sound which some people seem to like. If they weren't already great, then owners wouldnt be sending to Danny for fixing.
@@stephenyoud6125 They are having good reviews and selling loads!
@@ekimandersom4478 doesn’t mean they have an accurate responce and are well engineered
I'd rather pay more in the beginning for the speaker that had good internal parts.
And how are you going to know that?
@@davep2945 reviewers do tear Downs all the time
@@davep2945we need a bunch of Dannies.
I’m not kidding
Friend of mine had the original Synergy line of speakers for home theater back in the college days. We loved it for parties and movies. Though, I always had issues hearing the voices when in surround mode. This probably explains why. Also lot of listening fatigue with that system.
I loved Klipsch because they were loud.. before I started listening to guys like Danny.
I believe the Klipsch surround sound stuff is all made over seas and not really Klipsch products, they just sort of import it and rebrand? Not 100% sure on how that works.
I have heard some of their Heritage line of speakers and those are quite something given the right environment.
Gee I would LOVE to see Danny's analysis of a new Cornwall or Forte IV.
If someone sends us one of them we'd gladly look at them.
i would love a kit for my polk RTI8's but wish you could do also martin logan lxi16 too do you have a list so i can hunt for some, should you hate my speaker...lol great vids great teacher!
Outstanding work Danny, the speaker was a real mess to start with, something decent now.
Thanks!
Before I knew anything about audio, i got Klipsch for my home theater, and i could tell something was way off with the center.
Might be your best "Danny treatment" yet 👍
Marketing, marketing, marketing. Visually impress the rubes and damn the quality of fidelity. Mammon over love. Founder, audio pioneer and enthusiast Paul Klipsch is rolling over in his grave.
I have this center channel speaker with a pair of RF-7 IIIs. I absolutely love it! I have it powered with Emotiva Differential Amp. Does great. I mainly just hear the 1.75” tweeter working, to be honest. The tweeter sounds so good for dialogue.
Being a horn type driver does help a lot for dispersion.
Are you considering the upgrade? I highly recommend doing a upgrade if you haven’t. It’s allot of fun, and you will be hooked
And why not give him $400 for something that you already love...why not?
Most dialogue is normally in the range of the woofers, which are only decent if you're within 10-15°. if you're not within that sweet spot, they fall apart quickly
My advice - sell them all and get better speakers. You would then know what loving speakers really means.
OK, this one looks good. Its very important to have a well engineered center speaker, and it takes both research (or luck) and skill to get this kind of performance from a large center, like this one. Yes, you could just sell it, etc. but in this case, how do you know your new replacement will perform any better? Just because you spent more? Nope, sorry. - Well done, Danny. 👍
Danny, been watching for years, love your stuff, as for the Klipsch lineup, haven't seen but, have you done anything with the Promedia desktop speakers? I used them as surrounds, and had a good experience in a small room, used them as 2.1 for computer listening with correction, some basic measurements, had a plan, then my life went sideways, trying now/still to get back to, well, having a place to even use them, as small as they are. Would be VERY interested on your take. Best Wish's.......
I have not examined those speakers.
If I were to get a meter/meters what is the restistance range, capacitance, inductance range that the meter need to have for this testing the components?
5th like! 😅 I enjoy these videos a lot. Keep them coming please. In fact I was just about to order a pair of XLS Encores last year but transport cost to Spain with flatpack and lack of space and tools at home (I live in a flat) to build them did put me off. I ended up with a pair of Pylon Ruby monitors instead.
Just one question Danny: Would it be possible to do some measuring with these woofers when only two of them are driven, whilst the other two work as passive radiators? I m curious like hell about how they sound and how the measurement would be... just how the curves would look...I would not be astounded if this Center would do a better job with the outer two woofers just being passive radiators! Money, in this case, would not be a big point for me, because, I see a lot of Passive radiators on the market that cost almost the same as normal woofers would cost, so I would not mind that!
I'm pretty sure Danny will dismiss this idea, passive radiators usually need more moving mass, compliance and excursion capability than the drivers to work properly, secondly TS parameters of the drivers combined with cabinet volume may not favour a PR, or vented alignment for that matter. You could try gluing a heavy washer and adding perhaps a 22 or even 10R resistor across the vc, but that's about it.
I agree w your thinking, generally. However, as u may know, passives are usually twice the surface area w a much needed lower resonant frequency than the primary drivers. Also, this may not be a two way but rather a two and a half way design. Unless we see the xo, we dont really know. If he simply disconnected two of the woofers, the impedance would change and he would need to redesign the crossover as well. But again, I agree, a 5 driver center is not the easy button. ;)
@@paulb4661 By the way: There is no deeper reason for doing the measurement I am talking about. It´s totally not important if it makes any sense or not. It´s just about HOW THE CURVE CHANGES,, and not if it fixes any problems. That´s a completely different story!
If I would paint the membranes of the woofers with white paint - in order to make them look better (to my wife's taste or so) I would make measurements too! Not because it would be so important to me, but just to see if and how the curve changes due to the paint! That´s all. nothing important, but just to investigate! That´s the way to gain experience! It doesn´t change the run of the stars through the milky way, but it´s fun to just know if and how things get changed through small diversities!
@@bernhardmichaelfux308 ... and I'd be astounded if the two outer woofers transmuted into viable passive radiators by simply being left disconnected.
@@paulb4661 Maybe you don´t know yet, but passive radiators are simply Woofers without a motor! That´s all... You also can transmute every normal PR into a woofer by adding a magnet and a voice coil! It´s all about equal mass lol... Only you are not allowed to revive the dead to the living!
Hey I’m trying to do this upgrade to my speaker. But this is my first time doing anything like this. Is there a video or something that can walk me through the whole process
i might be wrong but the before and after graphs for spectral decay and impedance seems opposite/swapped to me, i just had to overlook the labelling and follow Danny's explanation to match the visual..
Do your kits include a complamentary schematic or diagram for instalation?
Yes, a clear and easy to read schematic is included.
Danny can you include information about setting it up for Bi-amp connections
I'm pretty sure when He makes an upgraded crossover, He usually just connects it all to a single set of tube connectors. Short of using external amplifiers I've never seen an AVR that could bi-amp the center.
We generally recommend against bi-amp/bi-wiring as there's rarely anything to be gained vs a good single set of inputs. Plus it also means you only need one cable per speaker.
Very good job
Try the JBL Studio 520c. It's bad. I had to cover one of the woofers with a thick cloth to try and make it a 2.5 way. The woofers are too far apart and they sound like they're just playing full range. It sounds crunchy and not smooth, it lacks the smoothness of the everything else in the Studio 5 series range. No one should buy them, I don't think even Danny can fix it.
Good stuff Dan, let me give you an idea and would make a major video because every reviewer out there apparently is afraid to do it for some reason and it's a must eventually, and alot of us true KLH fans from when it was all handmade in their factory and designed by Henry Kloss, I'm sure would love to see your analysis, bring in the original old model 5 (with new proper capacitors, and healthy sealed woofers) and let's see how it stacks up against the new model 5 on the charts and to your ear, why has a reviewer not took the new model 5 in a shootout against the original? That just makes no sense to me and would a banger of a shootout and would bring the history of one of the pioneers of engineers to some people who aren't in the know.
That god forsaken 6k range that so many tweeter love to scream at, that's where all the sibilance is centered. Even when you flatten it out, a horn tweeter just breaths at ya. Cup your hands over your mouth and exhale very hard, and that sound is every horn tweeter I've ever heard. Airy! A good silk dome or a decent AMT can't be beat in the tweeter department in my opinion. Everything else is just Sssssss Tinggggg or Haaaaaa. I'd still take this speaker if it was given to me, but I'll never buy anything Klipsch with my money. I just don't like horn tweeters, period.
But you made a real nice improvement with this, good job man! Cheers 🍻
How about a coaxial driver or, for that matter, the Altec-Lansing 601 speakers? Horns can sound great, for example a brass instrument.
@@thePrisoner1000 :
I think coaxial's are the way to go for so many things for at least 2 reasons. But everything has a use case. Me, just personally speaking, I don't like horns generally speaking. I'm currently rocking a quartet of JBL Studio 530's with the biggest and ugliest horn tweeter that I've ever seen. I use these in a 9.1 channel home theater. They consume one wall, the rest of my gear consumes the opposite wall. I do like my JBL's overall, but I do not like the horns! All horns create this megaphone kinda sound and it always sounds like it somewhere. The first thing that always jumps out at me in a horn tweeter, is the breath and airiness of the megaphone condition.
I just don't like the sound, and anything shaped this way will sound this way. Like a megaphone, to my ear holes....
I firmly 'think' anyway, that a properly designed speaker will faithfully reproduce accurately any music that you play through it, period. That is what I expect for my money, regardless of price. Cheers 🍻
Good horns, well setup and running off good electronics absolutely do not sound like that, at all. Please don’t take me to be a high end snob, I’m not, I’m a broke dad who loves pro audio speakers. A sensibly priced compression driver and horn from the likes of Eminence, B&C, JBL (Professional) etc, will wipe the floor with those cheap home theatre horn tweeters in terms of sound quality and SPL. The key is setup with a good quality crossover and electronics. Horns will really bring out the flaws in the rest of the system, thats what they do. If you have what should be a reasonable quality horn but you’re getting a really bad sound from it, I can almost garauntee it’s something upstream screwing up the signal and the horn is just telling you all about it. Please stay open minded and don’t write off a whole category of speakers based on your bad experience, you might find a lot of joy in horns down the road when you hear a system that is better setup.
@@KingOath:
The so-called "professional" audio gear is even worse! The horns are bigger. I just don't like em because they all sound like hot air to me. It's a physical byproduct of their shape, they all suffer from it in every price range. I really like my JBL's overall, but I have to pull a couple db in the 1.5 - 2.5 khz range to hide the horn somewhat. To each their own, but horns just ain't for me regardless of brand or price.
@@KingOath Never bother discussing horns with a horn hater because they will always tell you they hear a megaphone effect if they SEE the horn. It's a mental association thing. Put the speakers behind an acoustically transparent screen and a good many horn haters will love a well designed horn loaded speaker. Even when they don't they never guess the speakers they were listening to were horn loaded. As I've mentioned here before a good friend of mine used to work for a custom audio and theater shop and they had exactly the setup I mentioned.
For customers who couldn't decide or didn't know what they wanted they would play the various speakers they carried behind one of their theater screens. Was it scientific and strictly controlled? No. But each speaker was placed to sound it's best and to give the customer an accurate representation of what they would get in their home. Their shop carried Klipsch RP and Heritage line speakers, as well as the usual suspects from Paradigm, B&W and Golden Ear. They also carried JBL Synthesis systems and Martin Logan just to have something different. Most folks had no idea concerning speaker brands which is why they liked the blind testing. They could judge with their ears alone. Whether audio snoots like it or not more than 60% of the shops sales were Klipsch speakers, followed by Paradigm and B&W. People loved the JBL Synthesis speakers but not the price. They rarely sold a pair of Golden Ear speakers and eventually dropped ML altogether because they only sold something like 5 pairs in three years. They brought in Revel a couple of years before they sold out and that line sold better but was still last place. Audio critics truly do not matter to real world buyers.
Hi danny. I would like to measure and make my own new crossovers for the fun of it. what basic tool do I need? Multimeter? LCR Meter? Basic Free software? Entry Level Mic? I have some Wharfadale 7.2 diamonds. ( Ive been building sub enclosures for 20 yrs so, im in the area of audio but i dont have the crossover skillset yet. im going to dig in asap.
You need a measuring system first and foremost. The Pocket Clio system is a good one for a first timer. Then you need a lot of inductors, capacitors, and resistors of every value.
Hello, I follow and admire all the work that you develop. Congratulations.
One question: why didn't you use a 2 1/2 way crossover on this Hub?
That would require a polarity flip on the outer woofers, and that would be a be a problem as they share the same air space. So I had to get a little crafty with the crossover design.
@@dannyrichie9743 So does this mean that if the 2 woofers at the ends were in the same chamber and the woofers more in the center were inside another chamber, it would be possible to create a 2 1/2 way crossover and so the speaker would be better? I'm asking this because I want to learn more and more from your work. I'm building my own speakers for my Home Theater.
@@luischaveseletricista7074 That doesn't mean it would sound better, but if they were in their own air spaces then they could be made into a true 2.5 way design.
Cheese man reporting for duty. Hey everbuddy!
Do you have a center channel speaker that you WOULD recommend that doesn't need any upgrades?
Sure we offer several of them. Check out our DIY kits.
Still waiting for someone to send Danny a Jamo Concert VII. Cmon please lol.
I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS.....thanks Danny
The biggest issue with this is that the room you used to get the frequency response is not in a anechoic chamber so the frequency is specifically for the room you used. Placing this center channel speaker in a different room is going to give the frequency response that's totally different than your test results.
There is no room reflections in our measurements. The measurements are made using a gated time window with zero reflections from any surface.
There are very few companies I distrust more than Klipsch.
They have made it painfully obvious over the years that they are in buisness to make money, not to make quality speakers.
I would love if you showed us the harmonic distortion, it's hard to find any numbers🙈
Those numbers are really nothing more than marketing jargon. There is no real standard in measuring distortion, and no good way to get good comparable results outside of measuring in an anechoic chamber. The distortion numbers also really have no relation to sound quality unless they are highlighting a problem.
Hey Danny... off topic... but did I hear you mention you're developing a "classic-style" 10" or 12" 3-way?? I've always fantasized about owning a classic JBL-meets-Harbeth high end monitor.
Yep, that's the plan.
@@dannyrichie9743 I am eagerly holding off all speaker purchases for this. Hope it will allow us to get away from having to have a sub woofer
Sounds like this centre channel speaker would sound much better for the listeners if it just placed vertically than horizontally after your mods. According to your off vertical axis graph.
I was thinking the same thing. This type of “center” channel or mid bass drivers should be pointed upward/vertically and behind the TV screen. Some set up designs allow this.
Oh and I knew this without having to look at any graph. Just looking at the speaker design is a dead give away.
But one last note. I would try it out vertically even “before” any mods if it was already purchased. Why spend the extra money.
Most systems lack two things IMO:
1. Drum kick mid bass/thump. The drummer is usually in the middle of the stage
2. Low sound stage level. Having a center channel below the TV screen only compounds the issue and lowers the sound stage. It’s like you’re in the upper levels in a concert.
Having this type of center channel may help in both the above.
Pulling the main speakers away from the wall helps tremendously in establishing proper sound stage also but you won’t necessary have that mid bass drummer kick if main left and right speakers are a bit small.
Klipsch design intention seems more about forward facing and looks though but the overall design concept is something I would be interested in to place behind my flat screen TV which is obviously on a stand and not wall mounted and thus has room behind.
Nice one!
Would an upgrade like this change the sound of the front stage? For example I have the rf7iii, would this then change the sound so much that it’s like putting a different brand of center channel altogether.
It would be like lifting a vale from the speakers and allowing a LOT more clarity to come through.
I wish there was an upgrade for the Elac DFR52
I have the RCII version of this speaker. I hated it and took it out of my system. Now I understand why.
At that price for the upgrade I would by a GR Kit.
The woofers should be in a curved cabinet that will direct that sound wave in specific directions
... and ideally, identical to front L ,R, SL & SR with a vertical driver arrangement in a cabinet behind an acoustically transparent projector screen, perhaps ?
Still not fix the issue though.
A coaxial design would work. Like KEF LS50.
@@dmark2639 - The issue is multiple woofers that cancel out each other depending on where you sit. Coaxial will only fix the time alignment between midrange and high frequencies
@@Enemji No...I mean use 1 coaxial speaker for the center channel that plays the entire 50hz-20khz range. No multiple horizontal woofers. I'd set the crossover to the sub at 80hz. Then use identical coaxial speakers for the other channels too.
Is anyone at Klipsch watching these repairs of their junk? They should be and having recalls of all their failed attempts at speakers. I would never buy them after seeing what I have seen here on multiple occasions.
Voted best comment!
Danny, you are the shit!
Fantastic crossover work, Danny, but I have to wonder about taking the tweeter down to that low 750 Hz crossover point.
It can actually still play down a bit lower lower, but if it were pushed up higher, the off-axis results would be much worse, closer to that of the stock response. Even with the 2.5 way design, due to how far apart the drivers are from the tweeter. Plus center channels are designed for dialogue in TVs/movies, so most information will be coming from the woofers rather than the tweeter, with the exception of some female voices, which also dont need to be as dynamic as the rest of the speakers.
The overall power rating is diminished somewhat. But it's a tradeoff that looks well worth it. Also, the overall sensitivity is also reduced, but still above 90db, so there's still plenty of 'oomph' in it. The new off axis response alone is probably worth all that, imho.
@@jdlech not to mention most modern receivers allow you to level match each channel so it's not a huge issue imo.
@@hoth2112
What's the fs of the tweeter?
@@giriprasadkotte9876 dont know, I'd have to pull it out of the cabinet again and test it to get the fs
Is Klipsch the new Bose? Great marketing, to bad the owners need to upgrade there Klipsch speakers.
Surprised to see the 4 woofers playing the same, while the RP504C has the outer woofers playing lower than the 2 inner woofers. So what you fixed on the RC-64 III is 'standard' on the RP504C. Very strange from Klipsch
please please someone send them the Klipsch R-625Fa dolby atmos speakers.
I never seen Cerwin Vega Speakers come your way. considering Cerwin Vega was huge in the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s. They still make Home Audio Speakers plus PA Speakers. Can you please do some videos on Cerwin Vega?
Only if someone sends them in.
@@dannyrichie9743 The big ones are real heavy.
CV's of that era require significant bracing and inner/outer treatment to tame the beasts.
Imagine having that giant speaker and it’s harder to hear the vocals?
That's exactly what these do stock.. MMTMM designs are easily the worst performing design of the bunch for center channels. The best are coaxial drivers, followed by a tweeter + single mid woofer in the center, with 2 woofers on the outside. But most models on the market are MTM designs, which only get worse the further apart the drivers are..
@@jasonkillsformomy looking online, the VP160 looks like a pretty solid design. The VP180 is going to be an absolute disaster.. the fact they used 2 tweeters is just asking for problems...
@@jasonkillsformomy I'm not surprised, Danny has measured an older Axiom model in the past that also had 2 tweeters. It was a disaster, both on and off axis. The other model he looked at was better but still not great. Two tweeters only makes sense when you have one facing forward and the other facing backwards on the back. Two tweeters facing forward is only ever going to create a comb-filtering mess of a response.
I have the Klipsch RC64III and it sounds like the movies when I go to the theater, simply amazing. Just my opinion. Most people that buy this one are very happy.
I wonder why Klipsch put binding posts on this speaker for a Bi-Amp configuration.
Because it is part of their marketing.
For some reason, I
never owned Klipsch speaker.
are you ever going to do cornwall 4
I only work on whatever is sent in.
That’s all good, but I live in Australia
Hey Danny, any comments on the JBL4309?
I only heard them at Ron Brenay's house when he was doing a review of them. I didn't give them a real evaluation. They sounded fairing balanced to me, but were a little on the dull side. Nothing bad stood out, but nothing wowed me either.
Hobbs (Hobbs works for me) took them home for a little while and heard them in his system. His feedback should be a little better than mine.
Hey Danny! Interesting that Klipsch’s own website claims it’s a 2.5 way crossover from the factory. Are they lying to us?
“2 1/2 WAY NETWORK CROSSOVER DESIGN
The sophisticated design of the RC-64 III network attenuates the outer woofers output at higher frequencies to minimize horizontal interference off-axis to the loudspeaker. This maintains a wide and even sound distribution - ensuring each listener hears the center channel information exactly as intended.”
Maybe they've modded it? (though note this is also the 'lll') - Danny has pointed out they are getting better on the newer models.
They could have them on separate circuits, but those outer woofers are still playing up way to high. The horizontal cancellation confirms that.
Sensitivity went down more than 6dB. If you managed to use a 50W amp you now need at least a 200W amp after the modification. Could a cheap D.I.Y solution be to disconnect the outer woofers, that'll drop the level 3dB, put a resistor in series with the tweeter to balance its level, that will make a lighter load on the crossover and perhaps lower its frequency, bridge the resistor with a capacitor to raise that 10k-20k range if you do not prefer the cinema drop, that they probably put there intentionally. A quick $20 modification.
I wouldn't run Klispch if you literally gave it to me. Is this their center that's over $1000?
$1829
That was pretty clever. I like it. Funny how so many reviewerslike them right out of the box. Not just Kliosch, other poor performers too. Everything they review is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Reviewers get payed to like them
When you show a crossover reading with one crossover point for a speaker that has two crossover points. lol
The four woofers don't cross over to each other. They play on top of each other.
They have separate filters and the outer ones don't play quite as high, but they still play way to high. Let's pretend that there is only a 400Hz difference in how high they play. That's nothing. They are still playing the same ranges. The off axis measured responses clearly show them causing massive amounts of cancellation in the horizontal off axis.
The actual crossover point of the group of woofers to the tweeter is about 1,500Hz.
This is such a massive amount of cancellation that it will cause a drop in output if the listener simply moves over one seat on the couch.
Also, the mass cancellation effects the direct on axis adversely as it creates an extremely uneven room response.
Throw in ringing, peaks in the tweeter response, cabinet resonances, and smearing caused by poor quality parts on top of the messed up off axis response it is is pretty much a total disaster.
Your guests! Unless they sit on your lap. 😂
@@josephmccoy2129 Proof of an intentional lie? If he assumed they are all playing the same frequency and are not, then he made an incorrect assumption. That said, do you know anything at all about speaker design? Clearly there are major issues with the off axis response of those speakers as they were designed even if they are 2.5’s.
@@josephmccoy2129 I never lie. They are playing the same ranges and the cancellation shows it.
Sure @@dannyrichie9743
Hi Danny, I actually have a legitimate question for you today,....
I have a simple 1.2 inch silk dome tweeter, what would a minimalistic parts list look like for this using some of your high quality parts? Instead of the tiny cap and resistor that are on it. It is part of a coaxial driver, would you need the woofer section along with the tweeter to take proper measurements? Thanks!
I would need the whole speaker, cabinet and all.
@@jasonkillsformomy Thats kinda what I figured. thanks!
@@dannyrichie9743 Cool, thankyou!
Hi, I noticed that you didn't mention anything about the driver baskets. So I guess they're well made, no need to put strips of Noress on them.
Oh they are stamped steel baskets. Any little strips of No Rez on them will indeed help.
Have you done any emotiva T2 Plus?
I've worked on the T1.
@@dannyrichie9743 I have the emotiva t 2 plus and I sound pretty good but they don't really start to bloom until an uncomfortable volume something that rebuilding a x over might help?
@@1994shomn I have another Emotiva in the shop right now. They measure pretty well, but the parts quality is very poor. They were pretty lightly constructed too. So some parts quality upgrades and some No Rez goes a long way with those.
@@dannyrichie9743 thanks for your support, I enjoy watching your shows and would love to upgrade these speakers
It sounds like sensitivity by itself has no meaning unless you take impedance into account. I've always believe that Klipsch were easy to drive - it sounds to me like they are easy to drive into distortion.😃 If a speaker is 98db sensitive but has an average impedance of 2 in the 100 to 400 range that you can't even use a sub or a filter to effectively bi-amp (take the load off onto the sub's amp), then you're going to need some powerful gear to power that.
Yep, you're right...
Those impedance dips and subsequent high current draw... no bueno. Not only is it a burden on the amplifier, it also results in higher harmonic and intermod distortions in the driver's output.
Next, throw in the lossy thermal compression from the elevated current... the non-linearities add up.
Of course it did...just like every single speaker ever🙄
475 retail to improve, let's ay klipsch could get those parts in bulk for 180, now take that 180 x say 150k speakers old worldwide, that is alot of profit and mark up they would have to deal with. That's why they cheap out, pencil pushing accountants have the pressure of maximizing profits vs the designers and we know how wins there.
Would a single full range make a good centre?
We are working on a new center channel based around a wide band driver.
That's what I have, but it can be a challenge getting it placed. An easier alternative is to use a regular pair of speakers for the center, bookshelf or floor standing. The center channel is mono, so if you put a speaker on each side of the screen, you get a cenrer image just like if you were using a dedicated center channel.
Cripes.....that thing is gynormous! That customer must really like Klipsch to want to spend all that $$ to ship that thing.
The joy of doing such an upgrade is mainly in the way you are going to do this. The GR Research upgrades are not that expensive, relatively easy to do, and they are self-explaining step by step! And this is what a job needs to feel great! So said,: It doesn´t matter what step you are in at the upgrade, you k ow what comes next, and why you are doing this step! That´s awesome! The learn curve improves by doing these upgrades, and the results help you to understand what you did! By the way: The videos are instructive too! That´s something highly recommended!
OH I LOVE IT!
if you build a line, you get the directivity of a line array. To use that setup for a center is ridiculous.
Seems to me that this range of Klipsch speakers have looks as the primary concern. Engineering comes a poor second.
Would disconnecting the outer woofers entirely make a difference? Plug the rear port and use them as passive radiators? Just curious.
The cabinet is sealed, so there is no port. So disconnecting the will make them act as passive radiators, but they won't be properly tuned as the airspace is too small for a ported/PR design. Plus a usable PR needs to have 2x the throw or 2x the surface are of the woofers which are playing, which isn't the case with this design.
@@hoth2112 I have the RP504, which is ported. Assumed this one was as well.
I have a set of RTI 10 I'd like to send to you
Premium price for the "NAME" but cheap crap components in the crossover :(
Ypu love klipsh speakers! They get a lot of love. How about the polk speakers?
Danny just works on what people send Him. He says that all the time.
Polk seems to be doing better things with there crossovers than Klipsh right now. But Klipsh has been quick to update there models and fix them as of recently
wouldnt this speaker be better with two bass drivers instead of four. Put the money in better drivers and crossovers? In most theater setups one is only running them to 80hz anyway
The amount you pay for klipsch speakers,you shouldn't have to pay again to have them improved, Klipsch should be embarrassed.
The funny thing is a coaxial driver does a good job for vocal clarity, off axis response and much smaller! IMO, the center channel speaker is the most important speaker for movies.
Who owns Klipsch nowadays? Betty Crocker?
A lot of people. It's why we keep getting them...
@@hoth2112 Ok, looked it-up myself: it is now owned by Audiovox Corp.