Arcane | Heimerdinger is Unfit to Lead
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- Опубликовано: 1 дек 2021
- Being good and being right doesn't mean being infallible.
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Like this comment if you dislike the video.
Throughout this video, I constantly call the hextech gemstones and the hextech cores the wrong name. This is somehow everyone else's fault.
Sooo, when are you gonna talk about Undone (other VERY DIFFERENT show from the creator of Bojack) or Moral Orel?
Alright @Shady Doorags, you have a solid argument and I agree with you after careful deliberation.
Here's something that's worth knowing about Arcane's overall Universe that cannot be used in conjunction with the show because it has not been introduced in the series yet.
Runeterra " The universe/ world named so that Arcane takes a part of" had massive Rune Wars that the show did touch upon. What it did not truly clarify was how devastating those events were. The Rune Wars were responsible for not 1 but 2 nations banning magic completely. Demacia is another nation that may be introduced or hinted at in the next season, and it hunts down mages in their own country worse that Germany in WW2. Noxus, the nation that was introduced in Season 1, has some of the most atrocious monsters, demons, and war crimes due to their use of magic. Ionia is considered weeaboo land so their magic is about the only real "Safe" use in conjunction with everything around them. Bandle City, the place where Heimerdinger came from, is MAGIC based, and can be altered if the world changes. The Freijlord is an icy barren land and Shurima is the same in a desert setting. The thing both lands had in common was incorporating magic that later became meddled with and caused more destruction.
Targon, another region with the tallest mountain, thought it was a good idea to use magic to trap THE CELESTIAL DRAGON RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING UNIVERSES.
Don't even get me started with the Shadow Isles. That desolate, corpse-ridden, haunted, goth dream of a spectral hell was created because evil got mixed with magic.
In conclusion, my point is this: Heimer is absolutely justified in his viewpoint, but it fails to take hold because the show only gives you a very narrow perspective of the dangers of magic in the limited time it has. You're right that Heimer should be questioned and it definitely helps grow his character. However, if for whatever reason you decide to look into the lore of League of Legends, you'll realize where he's coming from and what he has witnessed.
Side note: You don't need to play any of the games at all to learn the lore. You can just access the stories here if it ever catches your interest. Looking forward to your next video and love to see what you tackle next.
universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/
@@bladekokiri That's good information, thanks. Do you know anything about that robot guy from the council? He said his race was almost destroyed by magic.
By the way, I think in the video Shady Doorags does concede that his viewpoint is justified and that Heimer is right. He's mostly analysing the way he communitcates with the humans in the show, aka Jayce and Viktor, about it, and that's where Heimer makes his mistakes.
For example, you see Viktor and Jayce showing him the hexcore because they expect their professor to be proud of their achievement that can save Viktor's life, and right away he tells them to destroy it without even thinking on how to communicate it. He lacks social skills in a way and he is too impulsive. And when he does that, his warnings are actually counter-productive. He needed to think of a way to slowly and carefully advise them against working on that hexcore and eventually destroy it, he didn't have to say it right away there on the spot.
@@Nata-ch2bk Oh, Shady Doorags was completely spot on with it. I just wanted to clarify the mental scarring that would have made Heimer speak that way.
To answer your question, not much is actually known about that particular council member's race. We've only seen one other character who seems to be of that very race in Legends of Runeterra, League's card game. That character in question is responsible for watching over or raising young people into fellow Kinkou. Kinkou are essentially a ninja group responsible for the balance between the mortal and spirit realm, with Shen, a champion, as their leader.
For League of Legends lore, the sole person our community considers the spearhead would be youtuber Necrit. He has a whole arrray of videos that delves into the lore and he should be considered a good starting point if you don't want to navigate the website.
@@bladekokiri Thanks 👍
_"Humans don't live for centuries! We can't wait for Arcane Season 2!"_
THIS
I'm stealing that for a meme, thank you XD
But...but we must take our time, work out all the kinks, until it is as perfect as season 1.
We could be improving lives with season 2 now!
@@freshairkaboom8171 arcane doesn't help people it hurts them in the best way possible
"It's called ice skates"
"You mean knife shoes? Destroy it!" Heimerdinger
Alright, that legit made me crack up.
@@ShadyDoorags I mean the shoe fits
They knife shoe will be safe in 2535643 years
they never listened. now camile roams piltover with her knife shoes
And then camile shows up and he starts screaming.
Honestly, I think Heimerdinger's biggest mistake was not TEACHING and EXPLAINING what he's experienced. He's seen it go wrong. Great. TELL people about that. TELL them what happened. WALK THEM THROUGH IT as if they were there. That's how you teach people about moral and technological failures. You don't just say 'that's bad', you say 'let me tell you why, in detail, in excruciating, gory detail if necessary.
EXACTLY WHAT I COMMENTED MYSELF, that made me SO angry about him!
We don't even know if he knew much about it, other than the outcome. So what he told them might be all he knows himself.
@@Fabiocean2000 and that actually would weaken his point enough to where an intellectual should doubt their OWN position. His point to Jayce and Viktor is arrogance personified. Unlike most, I love the little furball's personality and understand him thoroughly - but this video portrays better than I can the faults in his persona. Net Better is not necessary actual better. If 90% of the population lives in riches upon riches, but 10% are slaves, is that really a 'net better'?
Yess
Now this I can agree with completely. We see a glimpse of the horrors that he has seen. Why every time he sees this it reminds him of what magic can do. But, he does never state why he is against it. It's dangerous, ok that's pretty broad.
Instead he could always have told a story of another man like Jayce who thought he could fix things and eventually caused mass death and destruction. Sure it might make him sound like a dottering old man, but it would at least give more concrete terms. What has he seen? We have an entire season and no clue.
When Heimerdinger went to talk to Viktor, i remember thinking"Man, do you even understand what Viktor is telling you? He is barely 30, is going to die in anonymity while you are a rich acclaimed immortal and all you can offer is "that sucks! Anyway...""...it took him going in the undercity, seeing what he was too happy ignoring and meeting Ekko to understand that some don't have the luxury of passivity.
I got the exact same vibe with his talk with Viktor. Heimerdinger just cant seem to understand how his student feels, because of age and an already cemented legacy upon legacy for living so long. Viktor could be memorialized and still forgotten with enough time. Heimerdinger could in theory be remembered FAR into the future cause of age and how much hes done in that span of time.
yeah fuck heimer, didn't like him as a champ and sure as hell will never like him as a character. The lil mfs response when talking to a dying viktor was "real shit?".
It's also funny how it took him going to the undercity as an outcast associating with what's basically terrorists to understand that humans actually can achieve a lot in so little time (evidenced by his surprise at Ekko's tree). The winds were changing and he was a sail that refused to bend.
From our Perspective Heimer is probably very passive, but he can afford to be. It's all about perspective and that's why it's so great. I thought exactly the same, he said some very dick things, but from his perspective he was being kind. The guy just doesn't understand the finite.
Yordles aren't immortal and I doubt Heimerdinger is - but they tend to live for around 500 years, IIRC, so your argument still holds water.
They did a great job at making the “wise old man master” character great because his age and wisdom IS his flaw, he lives for so long he doesn’t understand how humans feel about “waiting for progress” we aren’t creatures that want to wait for our own futures
Yes! it's such a good way to add depth to a super common archetype who is generally just- always right np matter what. I love how they played with the concept of how an immortals timeline would clash with that of humans, even if their intentions are the utmost good.
It's not just that though.....it's that he lacks KINDNESS. He's nice and sympathetic, but that doesn't mean he's willing to truly go out of his way and even potentially sacrifice for Good.
He could have asked Victor how the Undercity was and found ways to help them, but he didn't.
He could have found ways to do charities to raise money for Zaun, but he didn't.
He could have found the source of Shimmer himself, but he didn't.
An with his Generations of living, he could have helped to weed out the corruption on the counseling, but didn't.
His greatest sin was looking at the Evil of the world, and thinking someone else would handle it FOR him, instead of challenging it himself.
@@TheAyanamiRei True. Unfortunately, the Pilts & Zauns have no good leadership, partially because the theme of both cities is "doomed if we do, doomed if we don't". The cities are opposite in most ways, but inherently flawed. Victor, Jayce, everyone has a failure of judgement in some way. Ekko's is the most unbearable to me though
Unfortunately he was right tho, cuz both Jayce and Viktor ended up fcked up due to their rash decisions.
@@muhammadedwards8425 May I ask why you feel Ekko is unbearable? I'm genuinely curious mind you. Is it his attitude towards topsiders? The methods he and the firelighters use to fight Silco, or just his overall attitude?
"Don't worry my boys, it passes by you in the blink of an eye" Looking back on this line, it really is the epitome of Heimer's character. Cheerful, optimistic, ultimately progressive, but completely divorced from the reality of who he's talking with. He says that to a man who we now know is dying, and who we still knew at the time was chronically ill from exposure to toxic gases in his youth. Can you possibly be more out of tune with your audience?
I thought at that time he didn't know he was dying.
@@thatrandomcat3479 Yeah, that's why 8 said "who we *now* know". They still knew he was sick at the very least.
@@benpeterson4673 really? I thought viktor was keeping it a secret.
@@thatrandomcat3479 I mean...he was hiding the more severe symptoms, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't born with that limp.
@@thatrandomcat3479 Even if he was unaware of Viktor dying, he knew the man for years and must have noticed his condition getting worse!
Vikto went from a crane to crutch!
Another scene that shows how out of touch Heimerdinger is, is during the symphony when he is the only one listening to the music while the other council members are plotting and scheming.
I wouldn’t call that “out of touch”. I’d say that because of his longevity, he’s able to enjoy the simplicities of the world and take his time.
But the other council members are human (except that robot dude), and have to keep planning and preparing for the city.
Isn't that more telling of their own character tho honestly?
@@Dr.Meme-Man he is out of touch with the corruption in the council, they weren't planning for the city that whole scene was about them making deals with each other to "bypass" laws for their own profits and enjoyments.
@@Dr.Meme-Man It is completely out of touch to be so absorbed in personal pleasures to willfully blind yourself to your colleagues. If you hold responsibility but are too busy enjoying yourself to protect it? That is a flaw and that is out of touch. "Alright team, I'm off on my third week long vacay this year!" "Honey, when's dinner? I'm too busy playing." "Hey, why are you so mad at me and calling me a flake? Why can't we talk about it?"
@@jomsies Jayce alone managed to weed out a lot of the corrupt behaviour in the council before he joined in a little, with Heimers status and power if he payed more attention he would be able to do more than Jayce.
When they removed Heimerdinger from the counsel I personally felt sad as he was the only one not blinded by greed and rash decisions. But I also agreed with their decision at the same time, at the very least understanding their reason and thinking it was a good one.
my take on it, he does raise some good points and has the experience to see what magic can do when in the wrong hands. We see he is obviously scarred from it. And Progress without historical understanding often leads to horrible mistakes that could have been prevented.
Was Jayce really greedy tho? He is doing what he is doing to improve everyone's lives, not just his own. If he only did it for himself then that would be a different thing for sure. But as he said, he comes from a small family and he know what not having much is like and can actually have empathy towards those who don't have much. With others in the council tho, yea I agree
Jayce didn't do that based on greed, but for the safety of Piltover. Heimerdinger's solution for the Undercity's problem is to wait for the problem to die down...
Heimer was indeed not blinded by rash decision, he was a careful scientist and not a leader. Leaders should be able to make decisions that helps the group, whether it's questionable or not. If Jayce follows his advice, Piltover is dead.
This is what I thought when he got removed from the council. Literally all of them have some kind of self motivation, and the vast majority of them have large egos as well (Jayce definitely included in that one). And we've already seen how easily Jayce is swayed by Mel and the others into behaving unethically. I'm not saying Heimerdinger was correct on every point, and I'm looking forward to him learning more about the human perspective and empathy in Season 2. But I think overall Piltover will be for the worst with his absence, because his high level of ethics is missing at such a critical point in their history.
I'm looking forward to his journey either way, he showed growth at the end of the first season already.
Heimer is like Yoda
Wise old man and being centuries old
But both are stagnant in their ways and doesn’t evolve with the times
Yoda did. It just took the destruction of his entire way of life, life's work and death of almost every single person he knew. Let's hope for the Piltover's sake Heim won't need kick in the butt that forceful to wake up. :D
I'd say worse than Yoda in certain respect. Yoda at least had the Jed running around the Universe trying to help people.
Heim did little to activately help those outside his social circles and those in his path.
Both suffered from being Isolationists more. They mostly concerned themselves with the affairs of their people and did little to actively change the two corrupt counsels.
I mean Palpatine says to Yoda, that Yoda KNEW the Galatic Counsel was corrupt and if he solved it by getting the Jedi involved in Politics like they did in years past, he NEVER could have rose to Ultimate Dictator.
Though Jayce is no dictator, Heim had a significant amount more political power and influence than Yoda did. Heim had a LOT more resources to change things directly.
@@TheAyanamiRei
In a way yes.
There was this wonderful scene in the RotS novelization. IT takes place during Yoda/Sidious fight where Yoda suddenly realized he has lost. He has lost before they crossed lightsabers. He has lost before he entered Palpatine's room. He has lost before he was even born. And he realized that for Jedi to ever triumph, they must be destroyed and reborn from the ashes of the old ways.
The things just got too far and they got too comfortable to change the course of history.
And same goes for Heim in a way. Even Jayce found out that good intentions will get you only that far. And while neither of them is all that comfortable with the idea of Independent Zaun, at least Heim seems much less prejudiced to them, and neither really think about them when they think about Piltover.
And it's not out of malice, just indifference and disregard. Which is -long term- probably even worse in some respect.
And to give Heim some credit, he really is no politician and he has all the insight of Tinkerbell when it comes to human condition. I would not be surprised if a lot of fucked up stuff that took place in lower city never occurred to him.
Sometimes you need someone like that. Even if Heimer could only look at the past (which is not true actually) sometimes looking at the past is invaluable. 300 years of experience is not something that can be easily replaced.
@@TheAyanamiRei Heimer helped in his own way. He was a great teacher who inspired generations and that probably had ripple positive effects through all the city. His scientific insight and 300 years experience was probably invaluable in many decisions taken by the council. No man (or Yordle) can be good at everything, that's why we work together, like a body, or at least that how it should be. You can't say your anus shouldn't be part of your body just because you think your hands are more useful. We all have our different functions. Maybe if there were more scientists as politicians better decisions could be taken, even if they are not as good at intrigue, popularity or speeches as most career politicians... But at least they won't deny climate change and would at least consider the threat that AI, or a solar surge poses to humanity. Fun fact: if a solar surge does happen, which is very likely to happen in the next decade, we are very ill prepared and our entire society would collapse. Most politicians will not be lifting a finger and are probably going to wait until it happens to do something about it. Because most of them are ignorant towards the dangers... Like most politicians.
The biggest moment that really made me side with Jayce in the council meeting was when he asked "what's your plan to fix all this" and what was Heimerdinger's response? "I see what this is about" uhm......DO you even have a plan?! I'm guessing not we all saw his shock of Zaun's condition he didn't even know of the stuff that happens down there all he does is talk and talk he never DOES anything!! Honestly if he actually did stuff to try to help Zaun instead of focus on what his fellow councilmen and citizens SHOULDN'T be doing he might have even had a leg to stand on against Jayce's arguments
I still like him. He’s a good guy but he’s a leader who stopped at 2 of a 3 step process. I’m almost convinced his plan was to wait it out until things calmed down, because he has the ability to do that. He forgot human limitations, humans faults and human needs. At the very least at the end he was learning what made humans great despite our limited time. (Still like him though, one hell of a stash, plus he was right most of the time)
@@mrpizzacat8273 exactly heimerdinger isn't bad just REALLY disappointing to watch him dropping the ball this badly
Agreed, but I think they didn't need to push him off the council. Just downgrade him from his position of "head of the council" to regular member. So he just gets a vote like every other councilors and doesn't have any more influence than that.
But of course, knowing what happened at the end of the season, even if I think they shouldn't have pushed him out, I'm actually glad they did 🤫
@@Nata-ch2bk or at the very least make him an advisor now THAT role us perfect for him
The road to hell is paithed with good intentions, and hymdinger is no exception. The only difference is he has the time to fix his mistakes while many others dont
A lot of people misunderstand Jayce's decision to remove Heimerdinger from the council (mostly because of the context of his big ego and old lore from the game), they think he did it because he was being influenced by Medarda and was being arrogant but no, the main reason was to save Viktor. Viktor saved him from suicide and now Jayce wants to return the favor by helping cure Viktor with Hextech.
Heimerdinger could have helped them stabilize the hextech crystal much faster but Heimer doesnt understand the urgency to do so. Heimer is willing to wait YEARS even if it means Viktor wont live to see the legacy he built because Heimer is immortal, in the grand scheme of things to Heimer, Viktor is just one of many scientists that contributed to the city's progress. Sure, Heimer will feel sad because Viktor was his pupil but he doesnt bother to try to save him, after all another will come to continue Viktor's work if Viktor dies. Heimer fails to understand a human being's desperation to achieve something great in their short lifespan, he only realizes this when he saw what Ekko was able to do with the Firelight hideout.
Woah
People love to hate on Mel and act like Jayce had no agency after the council decided to make him a member. But Mel, gave him needed information about how the council and the upper crust of Piltover operated. Jayce took that information and ran with it.
@@snakesnoteyes Yeah definitely. I think Mel and Jayce are well written. They both want to make a good impact to the world, although, I can say theyre definitely egotistic about it but it makes sense considering their backstories. They're not as deep as the other main characters like Jinx or Viktor but theyre not as bad as the community describes them.
@@etona6147 I think they’re probably the same people who think that Jack should have been given to the Giantess in Into the Woods. By which I mean they’re more interested in/used to apportioning blame than in actually understanding the characters and extending them empathy and really looking at what the show has to say about them and their motivations.
@@snakesnoteyes Yeah, I'd argue that on the contrary, she was actually never really manipulative with him at all. If nothing else, manipulation requires the victim to be unaware of it, but she was always forthright with Jayce, she was mentoring him more than anything else. The only thing she chose to withhold from him was the spy reports about the possible upcoming foreign attacks and understandably so, the man is impulsive as heck and his impulsivity frequently leads to some bad decision making.
Heimer is just as careful as inflexible. He was lucky to have missed Jinx's ult.
mel blocks it with her armor
calling it now
@@personnamed2764 makes sense!! damn now the scene is even more intresting
I was wondering why Heimerdinger never even considered the situation in Zhaun, the condition its people had to live under. The fact that the massive rift between Pilltover and Zhaun happened under his watch, that the Waterways around Zhaun had been heavily contaminated with all the refuse and toxic waste coming from Pilltovers sewer systems, causing all kinds of diseases and possible plagues among Zhauns population. Without Heimerdinger even considering this to be one of the major reasons for the attempt of the people from Zhaun to basically charge into Pilltower., Subsequently resulting in what I perceived as a Massacre.
Keep in mind, he only showed an active interest and compassion for the people of Zhaun after he lost his seat on the Council. I find this to be another massive flaw in his personality.
The way I see it, Heimerdinger is a scientist and an academy professor before being a politician. He's got a seat on the council due to his prestige as a founder of Piltover, but I think he doesn't care much for the actual politics unless it has to do with scientific stuff. He's not even aware all the other councilors are completely corrupt and doing a lot of shady deals with Piltover's economy.
For example, if I'm not mistaken he's not even present when all the councilors group up to talk to Grayson and Marcus about what they should do about the Zaunian thieves.
@@Nata-ch2bk You make a good point,. he does his part in regards of possibly dangerous inventions, which he clearly perceives as a threat towards the City and its inhabitants. But I also think he is hyperfocussed on scientific inventions specifically. For me its kind of a half & half concerning his responsibilties as a Member of the Council.
The line of a decade passing in the blink of an eye also works with him because where yordles come from where time is weird to them and as such they hold no real care for it where they live in a world that functions as it own field where time is faster hence the event he referred in a lore sense being closer to 700 years ago and as such time is very interesting with his character because he’s essentially immortal and this show showed me he can learn
It's an understandable flaw. Most people lose perspective on how bad things have gotten, until they actually see it with their own eyes.
The scene where the drug addict is reaching out at Heimer begging for help and Heimerdinger sort of flinches away but also wishes he could help is very telling of how neglectful Piltover has gotten to its own citizens.
It's spelled Zaun
Yea, I think he realized that when he came to the undercity tree thingy
"He has several faults" I think the most important is that he had centuries to make things right for undercity / the nation of Zaun, and he had the power to do it, he might be nice to people, but he definitely is unaware of how people normally live.
The best part IMO is that they challenge EVERYONE'S ideals. It's what makes Silco still come off as a somewhat likeable character. He's a total scumbag who will do whatever it takes to fulfill his goal....but that's because of his circumstances and the environment he was forced into. Near the end he starts to understand the other perspective and how shit it all is. Too late, unfortunately.
All of it would have been worth it...if not for...well...Spoilers.
Him sitting at the statue of the man he killed but also the man he respected above all others, poring him a drink and then admitting that he finally understands what he was saying, is a moment that elicits an emotion I cannot describe. And that’s why Arcane is brilliant
silco while he hated the people of top side and he had his whole the strong will survive mentality. Still cared not only for jinx but for the undercity which was why he cared so much about giving then their independence.
So despite the fact that he was taking pin crime lord. he was a king pin crime lord with his peoples best interest art heart. the reason he did terrible thongs was so that he could get the resources necessary to defeat topside
@@creeperkingdom3190 Indeed. He didn't even want to "defeat" topside. He just wanted his people to be equal to them. To be respected as their own nation of Zaun. He did everything to elevate them into equality and not once did he show himself wanting more than that, despite his claims of doing anything for power and such. Silco was arguably a "good guy" depending on how you define the term. He was the hero of the undercity and all of his "evils" were done out of necessity.
Exactly. Silco is a product of the world around him. He comes to understand why Vander turned his back on violence. The sad thing is the "weak man" whom Silco dismissed was likely his better self, the part of him that gave him balance.
@@Relugus that was so touching. Realizing why Vander left their duo and completely understands why he did what he did
One point I would differ is that I think Heimer does consider the good that magic could do in the hands of good people, but he is also aware that it only takes one bad person to create a catastrophe, no matter how many good people are using it for good things.
Other than that, I completely agree with the point of your video. Spot on. Best analysis I’ve seen on Heimer’s character in Arcane so far
I think that to be the case too, kinda like ryze, ryze doesnt trust anyone else with his mission, cause he knwos more than anyone that the world runes corrupt your mind, even ryze has been tempted a number of times, and he's fully devoted to his life mission. I view heimer in the same way, hes extremely old and has seen how lesser powers have corrupted people in seconds, and with piltover's sistem and the desperate craving to come out on top, gives him a fairly reasonable excuse for not wanting magic there.
obviously heimer was completely right, it got into the hands of the jinx and if that ending scene is anything to go off, i imagine there will be a mess at the start of season 2
@@crisisasp5396 council kinda deserved it tho
I understand that humans only have so long to live, but their decisions now will affect future generations, and that is something only Heimerdinger understands as someone who will live to see those consequences. Heimerdinger is not by any means against progress, he never was and he is not stuck in the past like many think he is. He simply wants to LEARN from past mistakes and move forward with CAUTION. He doesn't want to cultivate progress recklessly, but of course he wants the same things Jayce and Viktor do. All he said was to wait. Sky turning into ash is a mere peek at the devastation magic when put into the wrong hands can bring. He is thinking about the long term consequences. But that won't matter to Jayce or Viktor or anyone else in the current generation because they won't live long enough to suffer if history repeats itself. Their children will, though.
@@crisisasp5396 except it was heimer fault that event happen to begin with a lot of teh events in show could have bend avoided was not for heimer has oen commenter said
Trauma isn’t rational, and Heimerdinger is very clearly traumatized by his past. I think a far more interesting aspect to Heimerdinger’s character is that he is (up until the last couple of episodes) entirely blind to the suffering of the inhabitants of Zaun. Despite all his talk of using the technology to make the world better, he is every bit a part of the oppressive Piltover regime that keeps the Zaunians suppressed. He is an elite. A part of the structural inequalities that plague these two cities. This makes Heimerdinger an excellent lense thru which to examine that cognitive dissonance between the characters we love (I mean how do you not love Heimerdinger?) and the effect their actions have on those he might never have met had he not been removed from those elite institutions and gone down to Zaun himself. And buried beneath Heimerdinger’s character arc is an important lesson: one cannot fix structural issues from the confines of elite institutions like Councils. It has to be done on the ground, from the grassroots (the show even takes that stance literally with Ekko’s tree).
To put it most simply, Heimerdinger is an important lesson in that immortal phrase by Audre Lorde: “the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house.”
Love this show!
exactlyyyyyyy
Well no the problem was that he never bothered to understand humans. He doesn’t understand how much 10 years is for us. Believe me if he actually bother to look at zaun he would’ve been able to change it from his position in the council. He IS the founder so he has enough leverage to sway the council without participating in the political manoeuvres like Mel or Jayce
A great take on the bigotry of generationalism. While there's merit to a healthy paranoia, taking that paranoia to the realms of frantic fear only leads to destructive impulse reactions.
@Valentin Garcia "lexico"? O que é isso?
@Valentin Garcia to brincando, so que nada que ele falou é com palavra antiga, por que vc iria chamar o cara de léxico?
I mean his fear isn't baseless though, the world was nearly destroyed by the Rune Wars.
Shurima exploded to bits.
Viego destroyed the Blessed Isles. Etc.
Magic is very dangerous; Although Heimerdinger could've atleast explained it to them better.
well, as I see it he's basically telling them to not invent the atomic bomb equivalent of their world again. So it's morally gray.
And taking that progressive liberalism to obsessive levels leads to chaos and destruction, just like it happened at the end of Arcane. This is the whole liberal vs conservative argument all over again. If we grow too conservative we grow stagnant and violent, and if we grow too liberal we grow too chaotic... And violent. Yeah, in both cases we become violent, it's awful. It is an eternal paradox, so what is our solution? Easy. There isn't one. We simply let both sides coexist and constantly discuss between themselves in search of a nuanced decision.
Like it or not, Heimerdinger's presence in the council was needed, and without him things could only go south. You NEED somebody to tell you NOT to do things, even if he can't come up with alternatives. 300 years of experience is not something that can be easily replaced either. Differences make us strong, we can't expect there to be only one type of person in a group if we want it to be stable.
I think Heimerdinger's real failure is that in his over century leadership on the council is that he has failed half of his city. The massive inequality and discrimination between two sides of the city are so catastrophic it could only of come about because of decades of discrimination.
He had too many duties
On top of being a council member he was also the head teacher of the academy, directly guiding some of the greatest young minds to excel, then he also had his own research and engineering.
He had so many different responsibilities he probably rarely left the academy let alone leave piltover proper
Honestly, can't blame him: imagine you're Hiroshima survivor and your pupil leading a program "atomic bomb in every home"
💀💀💀 a great analogue ngl
One tiny nod to dinger’s ignorance of zaun/the lanes is that when he meets ekko, he says the blades on his board are improperly pitched, ekko corrects him by explaining it’s because the air is thicker in zaun.
Imagine the allegedly wisest, 307 year old, scientist on the council of piltover, not even considering the air quality of the people he rules over. Makes you realise all of his inventions probably don’t cater to the people of zaun and that’s probably the mentality fostered in the piltover academy
One of the few comments that actually speaks the truth.
Your quick comparison with Cait, as another of the more morally sound characters in the show, I think is excellent, because I believe Caitlyn's arc parallels his. She wants to do the right thing, but also because of her rich background, is very detached from what's going on in the undercity. Which is why Vi serves the same purpose as ekko, showing her the truth. Where their paths differ is their guides, each guides perspectives on things and how their interactions with each other effect them moving forward.
Heimer's mentality is something that every long term investor eventually leans toward, which is risk aversion. We know that humanity has restarted society over and over again because magical catastrophes keep happening. Hell, even in current lore, there's a bunch of world ending plot lines in Runeterra that's all linked to magic one way or another.
When dealing with long time frames, progress over time is favored, and you disregard the minute changes and improvements in favor of avoiding anything that might catastrophically damage your position. I'd imagine Heimerdinger founded a city of progress that uses science instead of magic, because humanity having access to nuclear bombs before even entering the medieval ages is not a good idea. In fact I'd argue that Runeterra would be a far more developed world technology wise if the world runes didn't give the world its magical properties.
This is a serious lesson on leadership. Even when you're right, even when you're moral, you can still make yourself into the bad guy by not understanding people.
This is the first I heard of this show, I look forward to watching it. Thanks Shady.
It is literally impossible to be right and immoral at the same time. Immorality is by definition not right. The fact was Both Jayce and Victor were short sighted self centered ass'es who created a problem much worse than before. Just like Hymer said.
An important lesson is the following:
"It is not WHAT you say, it's HOW you say it." and Heimer failed cirtically at the second part every single time.
He never convinced anyone of the dangers of magic, he only guilted Jayce into slowing down.
Heimerdinger was too good for his own good on the council, in a place surrounded by greed he was the only force that wasn't corruptible but that's corrupt in its own way. He wasn't able to empathize with others on the council, or in the city, or even Zaun because he was so detached from it all while trying to insist that what he did was for the good of everyone. The problem with that is that he's doing something for the good of people who are long since gone, 300 years gone to be exact, and the people he's trying to keep safe are able to do it on their own, they just needed his guidance. But he didn't give them guidance, he babied them and tried too hard to get in the way of actual progress instead of helping it.
That's why he needed to be removed from the council because his views are unable to be compatible with the views of the new generation and it's only until he left the council that he finally started to see outside of his worldview. Ekko is the person that Heimerdinger NEEDED to meet because he represents the future, something that Heim could never look forward to.
He was basically like a good king, with a bunch of bad advisors making him think everything is fine
@@codebracker essentially, although he was a good king who couldn't understand his people until his crown was taken away by force.
It took him a trip to the undercity to understand how much the people has suffered under his watch he was ignorant the whole time until he was actually there to see it.
One of my favorite scenes with Heimerdinger the scene in the opera.
Jace starts to learn how corrupt the council is. And durring a montage of of the council-members are making semi-legal arrangements, we see Heimerdinger just enjoys the show. So somehow, even if he may is not that good as a leader, all the other members of the council are a lot worse.
he doesn't just enjoy the show, he closes his eyes to enjoy it, its symbolic for his ignorance about the corruption in Piltover, he doesn't want to see the problems his city has. The problem with Heimerdinger and why his removal was the right choice is that he willfully ignored the writings on the wall and prevented every decisive action someone had to make in a crisis like this. And that's why the other council members as corrupt as they are , are not that bad because their passiveness doesn't stop Jayce from solving this crisis. Heimerdingers passiveness prevents problem solving at all, for example Heimerdinger just wants to shut down what seems to be the only cure for Viktors disease, he could have instead helped Viktor find another way, he didn't do that.
It's kinda hard to judge if Heimerdinger's judgment should be followed or not because of the context of the world.
In Runeterra a little something called the Rune wars happened where the world was nearly destroyed (It's what Ryze is actively trying to stop from happening again; And is probably what Heimerdinger also saw). The hexgem is basically giving people the power to make their own bombs. Much like medicine, there's a process to guarantee that it's safe for the general public to use.
The tech might be stable but the people aren't. But I also agree that Heimerdinger could've also done more, but seeing as how Yordles are, can literally focus on doing 1 singular task for literal centuries, kinda makes sense why he is so disconnected with mortals (Heimerdinger seems to be the most introspective Yordle though, probably due to his intellect). Yordles are just scary man, Fizz sinks ships but he thinks he's just playing pranks on them; Doomed an entire ship because he took the coin that was suppose to be the tithe to pay for Nautilus and he returned the coin to the only survivor and was laughing.
The problem is that there's no real way to make the hexgem safe. Or rather there is no real way to prevent it from ever getting misused. Because the item itself as a power source is safe. And naturally the power source would get improved, be that by making it more efficient, more powerful, or simply more usable. Regardless of the option it can be misused.
It's also why your example of medicine doesn't work. Even if medicine is safe for general public use most if not all types of medicine can be misused to lethal effect.
If they wish to really improve people's lives with hextech it will have to become more available, and naturally as a result it also becomes easier to misuse. The only way to make sure it doesn't get misused is to make it so nobody ever wants to misuse it, or to make sure it simply isn't available to anyone.
Everyone’s forgetting another piece of evidence that Heimer is right. Jinx was able to steal the gemstone and ultimately Jayce will have to live with the consequences of his own actions. Fishbone rocket and all
This may be true, but on the other hand there is no real way to prevent it either. Sure, you could have prevented Jinx from stealing that gemstone. But any similar power source could have been repurposed to do a similar thing. There is no way to make a power source that can't be abused while also making it be able to be used for essentially anything. And the only way to really improve the powersource is by either improving its output and/or its usability. And both options can be misused.
The only real way to reduce the risk was to make it so fewer people would be interested in abusing it. Making sure that Zaun wasn't as much of a hellhole as it was would be one of the more effective options to reduce the risk. And even then you could only reduce it.
@@cindermoth3421 but im pretty sure heim only said to "safeguard it" before giving it to everyone's hands, the only thing he trruly wanted to destroy was the hex core.
@@thatrandomcat3479 No in episode 4 it is said directly by him he wants them to continue working on the gemstone to make sure it couldn't be misused. I meant this specifically about the hextech gemstone, the hexcore isn't relevant to this.
The problem is that in the end Heimer didn't understand that the real thing he feared wasn't magic. It was those who would abuse it. If he had understood this then perhaps he could have spent more time trying to improve the lives of his people, top and bottom so that he could trust them with whatever he makes instead of deciding they simply cannot handle the temptation of power.
@@Merilirem It's also funny that a magical creature is afraid of magic in a sense.
I don't actually think Heimerdinger was "right all along." Jinx using the hexgem to make a devastating weapon aside, the reason Jayce and Viktor end up regretting their decisions isn't because they didn't listen to Heimerdinger, it's because they lost sight of their original goals. Jayce got dragged into the politics of being on the council and Viktor's desperation pushed him to experiment with increasingly dangerous methods of harnessing magic.
When the two are having their "great vs good" talk, they aren't saying "Aw shucks, I wish we'd listened to Heimerdinger" they're lamenting how their once noble goals turned sour after being blinded to what they originally wanted to do.
If you thinkg about, the entire plot that lead to Jinx shooting the rocket was caused by Heimerdinger.
Jayce wanted to present Hexgems and the tools, what would have put them on center-stage, but because of Heimer telling him not to, they were a national-secret and the theft became such a big deal that it kicked off the events that lead to the bridge fight, Jinx's near-death, her getting injected with Shimmer what caused her insanity to spike.
@@GameBreaker1055that's kinda stupid. You can say well, because of Ekko who told the tip about Jayce's lab, that lead to Jinx firing rocket. Or better yet, because Heimer founded Piltover, Jinx fired rocket. Really unrelated events
a lot of people tend to forget that Heimerdinger was already at the head of the council when Vander's rebellion was repressed in blood
While i agree that heimerdinger might be a little blinded by the fact that hes immortal, you cant deny that he was somewhat right. The atlas gauntlets and the laser thingy were made as mining equipment yet we see them actively being used as weapons (Vi literally uses them in the series and Viktor later on adapts The concept into his third hand). Jayce is right, humans dont live for centuries, but maybe there is a reason we dont.
I mean, you can use anything as a weapon if you really want. Real Life Mining equipiment is lethal, too. Even regular kitchen tools can be weapons and I don't think anyone will argue that they shouldn't have been invented.
We''ve seen this tech stuff obliterate entire buildings, the atlas gauntlet isn't nowhere near the level of destruction hextech inventions could potentially cause. Jayce could have created something a lot worse if he really wanted to create weapons. His Hammer is a good example here.
What heimeedinger does is what we call "sympathy" or the acknowledging someone's else's feelings and thoughts. "Empathizing" like the creator says is the act of "understanding"; to know what it is like to be in the same position as the other. Sympathizers can feel bad but they will never know what it truly means to be in that very position. Neither is wrong of course but Heimers position is a great example of sympathizing, but not understanding cause his long life span alienates him from a humans pov.
Heimerdinger is kinda like a more well rounded Yoda. I freaking love his character in spite of how much I disagree with him
“In our pursuit of great, we failed to do good” is definitely one of the hardest hitting lines in the show (and its my favorite)
honestly, an immortal do-nothing lacking the ability to empathize with those they rule captures the essence of a lot of modern American politicians pretty accurately. Heimer's character is on point lol
Makes you wonder how Westeros is gonna fare in Game of Thrones after a certain someone succeeded the throne.
Fuck no, Heimer's a good person and ultimately tries to do good for everyone, the council is like American politicians, corrupt and looking out for themselves, Heimer's dumb not evil.
@@agentc7020 I think being ignorant is even worse.
@@Manganization I disagree, actively working for themselves at the expense of everyone else is unforgivable to me, ignorant people can learn to do better.
@@agentc7020 it's not that I disagree with you, it's that Heim's wisdom is useless if it's not applied correctly. The theatre performance was to show that everyone had the wool over Heim's eyes while he was just enjoying his time and being complacent.
In his situation, he couldn't learn to do better if everyone around him that he trusted were wolves in sheep's clothing. It was increasingly clear that he wasn't the one who had the power in this scenario.
Ignorant people can learn to do better, but only if there are people around to help them do better. They aren't useful to anybody if they're being complacent. I still like him more than the rest, but it's true that he wasn't the leader they needed right now.
Heimerdinger was willing to accept the hex tech. He just wanted it to be properly tested and safe guarded before let into the public. This is something normal in our world. It can take a decade of testing and tweaking for a product to be released.
If The Donger showed more understanding of the fleeting life of humans, they would at least taken him more seriously. Also, I believe the issue he had with hextech wasn't because of the inevitable catastrophe, but for the lack of preparation for such an event.
In the end Heimer was right with the whole one bad egg can fuck everything, with Jinx blowing up the whole council using Vik and Jayce's invention. But I do agree with the way they took Heimerdingers character. I also sided with Jayce on the voting out scene. Removing Heimerdinger from the council ultimately saves him from getting blown by fishbones and at the same time develop his character by making him learn some empathy from his encounter with Ekko and Zaun. Just brilliant shit from arcane as always. They made almost everyone complex. Sometimes we can disagree with the "good" guys and agree with the "bad" guys.
Ekkos characteriseation when he meets Heim seemed off to me.
He had been built up as being distrustful of Piltoven authority.
But he immediatly gets buddyish with Heim.
Even if Ekko respects him I would of exspected him to have vented his fustrations on him more.
I couldn't agree more. It felt unnatural. I can understand Ekko having respect for the man. But considering what he went through, how he's distrusting of enforcers (has every right to be), how he acts towards Caitlyn and even has issues trusting Vi (since he hasn't seen her for so long and knows that Jinx works for Silco now), his characterisation when meeting Heim felt forced. Greeting him like Heim isn't part of the higher authority that turned a blind eye to the underground, but this sweet old guy, that just didn't know what was going on....I mean if he lived so so long, there's no way that Heim didn't know the state of the poorer class and their living conditions and was just naive/completely oblivious.
I also have the same thoughts about that scene.
He said he did everything to prevent corruption and missuse of their resources but that was already happening for YEARS simultaneously next to him and the council every time he said this. It was so infuriating watching him play leader in a society in shambles because of his corruption and misuse of his own resources
I really liked the line you put of Jace right at the beginning. Heim clearly has wonderful intentions but his lifespan has given him a sort of complacency that humanity just isn't allowed to have biologically. They just don't live that long. And hearing him say when he went to ekkos camp about how impressive what he accomplished to quickly, it shows that in that regard Jace was completely correct. Heimerdingers idea of not just science but it seems everything is based on his own life span and experience. So it's made him unable to really understand the urgency that Jace and Viktor are going through. Humanity as well. It makes him feel like he's either belittling the plight others are suffering or it feels like he's looking down his nose at people. And he clearly doesn't mean to. It's just something he hasn't considered. Which is why I was stoked when he met up with ekko. Someone who's entire story is having to do a lot in a short time. Can't wait for season 2
Heimerdinger is the best example of Sympathy vs Empathy. He's able to sympathize with everyone on the show, but he's completely unable to empathize (mostly due to him being from another race).
I'm glad he met Ekko and got to see his designs and inventions. He got to see that when your life depends on it a lot of progress is possible.
Something that really bugged me about him was the amount of preaching he did, mentioning how he witnessed magic destroy so much, all while staying super vague about it. He never spoke about direct examples, or offered alternatives, just said no, like a parent to a child.
Because none of them can understand. Would you explain in detail to a 2 year old why they should not put their hand in a socket? Explaining the complexities of the circuitry and how electricity works? Or would you just grab their hand and say no? Except in this case Hymer is surrounded by 2 year olds who throw a tantrum and kick him out. Then they collectively stick their finger in the socket.
"What is it about Arcane that's got everyone in a tizzy?"
Well the furry in me is just waiting for Warwick after he was teased for the next season.
I think he only ends up being right because of his lack of actions to help and avoid the scenarios that will lead people to use that tech for "bad" purposes
Heimer being afraid of Magic is nooo where near with Demacia's level.
I do love heimer but hate him in game lol 😆 and he is unfit to lead, because he doesn't understand how humans feel about the inevitably of dying and illnesses and just overall the morality.
The same way you didn't understand what humans capable of doing destroying themselves.
how is it his fault and not ours that we’re so fiercely afraid of death?
@@c3ru1ean41 People want to find things they can blame their misgivings on.
@@c3ru1ean41 it's not his fault at all.
But for someone to be a good leader they need to have empathy of things they don't understand.
I'm not saying I hate him as a character.
I play league of legends all the time lol I hate facing the little bastard in lane. He is very annoying.
@@reianvase6683 If he wants to lead, he needs to be more pro-active and not just be all talk. There was so many suffering but It was never shown what he did to help even though he was the most capable in the hundreds of years he was alive.
i love how nuanced and deep all main characters in arcane are, that generates debate like "its heimer a good leader" or "how toxic its silco and jinx relationship as father-daughter?"
that just happens with really good really fleshed out characters where they are not white or black but have nuances
I think you're gonna be one of my favourite channels to follow Arcane through, this was a very good start. I hope Jinx and Vi are the last characters you cover lol
Arcane Heimerdinger: likable
League Heimerdinger:..............
I disagree with your first point about Heimerdinger and Jayce's research. It's perfectly consistent and logical to not take the research of a student you just had expelled (one you didn't want expelled mind you) and complete it. That'd unironically be the most blatant example of corruption there would be.
4:08 that had nothing to do with luck. This was Heimerdinger understanding human nature.
Everything ever created with the potential to be used to harm others for the gain of others has been used that way during the whole history of mankind, ever since we learned that a sharp stick can kill things.
Gunpowder was invented as a material for Fireworks, until people realised it can be used to launch metal projectiles, making it useable as a weapon. How did this turn out? Not so great, huh?
Humans will use everything that can be used as a weapon as a weapon. No exception, no if's or buts!
However, as with literary any technology, usage of it greatly depends on who, and how uses such technology. Instead of demonizing progress, we should Instead approach with care, and make safeguards to avoid misuse of it. I personally find argument of "it's best to not discover anything terribly dangerous" to be naiive, because, someone eventually will discover it, and you have no say in how this other person uses said technology. It is basically delaying the inevitable. Once technology is discovered, it should be carefully implemented, regulated, and eventually become safe enough for mainstream use, otherwise we end up with wrong people discovering very dangerous things.
@@marks7484 Lets just take Vi's Gauntlets as an example. They were designed for miners, and it didnt even take a whole week in the shows own time for them to be used as a weapon. We are talking about weaponised magic here.
If for some reason Flamthrowers were used as a tool in our society, what do you think how long it would take before they are taken out of their intended use and become weapons for gangs?
You cant even trust humankihnd with a freaking wooden bat and not have it be used as a weapon. And you think giving them access to Arcane Magic that everyone can use is a good idea?
And for those things in the show, it is made pretty clear that they cant just be made by everyone. The only reason Jayce could make them in the first place was because he had an actual magic shard he tried to replicate and even then it took him like half his life. Heimerdinger had the right idea to destroy everything connected to these things.
Look how Hextech is used in the game, weapon after weapon after weapon. Literally everyone outside of the totaly detached from reality people who make up the top 1% of Piltover already see it primarily for weapon potential. You have freaking Noxus sending an emisarry just because they heard of the ability to make magic available for everyone.
@@Raoul9753 jinx made mechanical butterflies into a carpet bombing run. Any technology can be used for good, or bad. Difference is, we make strict rules, and countermeasures for such things, to ensure that either bad people don't get their hands on, or can be stopped with reasonable level of force. Some technology is even bound to become mainstream. Industrial fertilizer can be used for crops, or bombs. So we keep an eye on who buys large quantities of it. Consider this, how big and ancient is this world, someone will eventually discover this technology do to it's potencial. In this case more or less good people discovered it, and it is a shame that hextech ended up used as weapons, it however wasn't a shame that hexgates were built, and turned months of travel and transit time into a day. And to be real, in game there is a war, of course everything will be turned into a weapon in such conditions
@@marks7484 @Marks I mean that is easy to say but jinx was able to make fishbones by herself with some books and a hextech gem, countermeasures and stuff can be made but we are talking about magic here, you can make literal nukes from this stuff if you tried I am sure, and our countermeasures for nukes is for everyone to have a nuke so people are deterred from using said nukes, and it works until someone hits that button, this isn't a computer virus, a gun, a bat or a pointy stick this is pure arcane magic mixed with technology. Our world can literally go all to shit from a person hitting one button and then someone in retaliation hitting one button and it likely will continue to chain, it sounds fantastical but this is something that can really happen, not even going that big in just the general public the countermeasures for guns are for you to have your own gun or call the police who then use their guns, like no matter how we look at it the countermeasure for weapons is more weapons, that is how it has always been and will always be, and I am pretty sure if we got magic it would be the same thing, the problems come with the collateral of what a fight between these weapons would cause, a Fist fight collateral is low, but then we have guns, potential innocents hit, explosives, nukes and this is stuff that we made without magic, now imagine if everyone had a fishbones, ziggs bombs, or just chucked a hextech Chrystal at each other. I am not saying it is wrong for magic to be explored but the idea that we can track, make reliable countermeasures and so on for it, is extremely naive at least imo.
@@marks7484 I mean, that was one of Heimer's arguements to introducing the hexgem. He said that the boys made great progress but that they should take it a decade to test things even when he knows viktor is dying
I think Heimerdinger is after a principle that apple employed when denied giving access to someone's iPhone that the CIA needed access too.
"Once the tech is created, it will always be there."
Basically meaning that since it exists, it can end up on the wrong hands and over time, the odds of that are incredibly too harsh to think of doing.
It's a way of saying. Let's avoid the worst outcome.
Risk vs reward. The reward is great, but so is the risk.
That's why he's so called "in the past" to Jayce.
Because his inability to be okay with a risk meant stagnation.
Basically,
But regarding the hexcore. In that moment he knows 100% that Viktor is dying. Viktor then has the possibility of potentially saving his life and other lives by utilizing the hexcore, and what did Heimer say? To destroy it and better yet didn't even give him a genuine real reason to sacrifice his life just a "maybe." Because he is scared of what might happen, completely disregarding that he himself is effectively immortal and don't have to worry about dying from waiting too long.
He effectively just told Viktor and Jayce "Destroy it and just trust me, I know this means you will 100% die but just trust me" and expected everyone to comply.
@@cannedsquasher5923 Heimerdinger had the interest of the greater population in mind. Victor had his own personal needs first and foremost. One was attempting to protect the majority. The other was blindly and selfishly acting in their own interest.
You really made the right call to cover a topic other arcane videos aren’t. This is super eye opening 🙏
to be fair to Heimerdinger: nearly every great catastrophy in the history of Runeterra has been caused by magic. The Blessed Isles, Shurima, Icathia, the Runewars, the Iron Revenant and more.
But short sighted humans want to try out dangerous magical tech NOW!!! It won't go bad this time. But it does. He was right.
One huge theme I see in Arcane is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".
I really love, how they made that Jayce and Heimerdinger having a point but missing the Point from the another. Who Heimerdinger see the Bad of Hextech, Jayce see the Good of it. Yes, was Heimerdinger says was right about that "it could be Dangerous in the Wrong Hands" but... Can that not happening, even after a decade? Yes, it will be more Secure, but it will always a Way to make something good to something dangerous and reverse. And I Like how Jayce said about, that Human don't Life so Long and that even Heimerdinger having see the deaths of many people he knew, he MAYBE the only one in the Room, who don't Really understand the Weight of this Word's.
For in-show context, I've got to point out that when you give something to _everyone_ (which is exactly what Jayce and Viktor wanted to do with Hextech) you're also giving it to the worst kind of people... Because they're included in *_"everyone."_*
For out-of-show context; Heimerdinger is most likely referring to either the "Rune Wars" or the "Fall of Icathia" (or both) when he's talking about what magic can do in the wrong hands. The Rune Wars was wizards tapping into the primal forces of creation and ended up reshaping the entire planet and nearly caused the extinction of all life on it. The Fall of Icathia (happened after the Rune Wars) was when ancient nations went to war utilizing immeasurably powerful magics which ended up decimating the southern half of the continent and opened up Runeterra to the extra-dimensional, now ever-encroaching, threat of the Void.
The man saw one or more global holocaust events and is seeing the seeds that led to those events bloom again in the hands of these naive young men. I'd argue it's not a lack of empathy he suffers from; it's a lack of communication skills.
Definitely a good perspective I appreciated seeing. While he was by no means my favourite character, I really appreciate what they did with him. I also think that him claiming that nobody wanted his help was another show of his lack of empathy. We clearly see a beggar reach out for his help, only for him to shun them. He wants to be good, but he lets his own fears and worldview hold him back.
I don't think Heimerdinger's problem is a lack of empathy, I think his problem is his fear of magic. Imagine you witness and survive something 10 times worse than the droping of the nuclear bombs, that technology is lost and then a student comes to you saying he found a way to put nuclear reactors in the hands of anyone.
Sure, that would have a lot of benefits, but as a survivor of a nuclear bomb you'd only be able to see the possibility of one of those reactors find themselves in the hands of a terrorist.
Just like any other character in Arcane he's not completely wrong or right.
Thanks for making this. You make some seriously interesting points and clarifications that I would have missed without your video.
I look forward to seeing more of your content.
the moment when Heimerdinger after centuries of neglecting Zaun people finally see Zaun with his own eyes is uneasy but somehow cathargic.
Im hoping for some truly interesting arc in season 2 - Ekko is perfect character for him to interact with and show meaning of life, even if the life is short and don't make difference in bigger picture
Heimerdinger was right. The entire time I found myself shouting, "Listen to the 300 year old man! He might know a thing or two!"
People empathize with the "not wanting to wait" aspect because we're human and we like instant gratification, but there's too many flaws and variables in rushing. For example, it might be nice to visit Mars in our lifetime, but if we rush spaceflight instead of taking our time to figure it out, thousands of people would probably die.
exactly, people don’t want to hear it, but correct change takes time and effort.
I was just frustrated he never elaborated on why he was right and didn’t try to understand *why* people were doing what they were so that he could use that to make compromises. He should’ve worked with what Jayce and Viktor wanted and given them more guidance as to how to accomplish as much as possible as safely as possible. The gauntlets and hammer are obviously useable as weapons, but there’s no discussion as to how to make sure tools are used as intended, or to even make new kinds of tools for the same jobs that can’t be abused. Telling someone “thing bad” is almost like telling someone nothing at all if it doesn’t appeal to them or isn’t within their understanding. He doesn’t analyze the events that led up to bad things happening, he only says that magic was involved, which makes him appear biased and unhelpful to those around him.
@@pheonixrises11
But that's not exactly true. When Jayce and Viktor tell Heimerdinger they're working with magic, he does tell them why they should stop, it's just not overly detailed. He says it's because he's seen entire civilizations ripped apart because of magic and the people meddling with it. But since magic can't be understood on a logical level, there's only so much detail he can really give. He said it corrupts people and isn't based in science, and he sadly turned out to be right.
@@kirikakirikakirika Heimerdinger wasn't right at all, and his entire arc (despite how brief it was) highlighted just how out of touch with the world (and reality) he actually was. A breeze was blowing, the winds were changing, and he was a sail that refused to bend. Progress isn't built on the back of patience and inactivity...progress is built on the winds of change and experimentation, trials and errors. Heimerdinger was someone who feared that; he feared experimentation, feared the necessary trials that humans must face and overcome themselves and the necessary errors they must make in-order to discover the truth of what's right. Heimerdinger feared change. He was so stuck in and blinded by the past that the briefest glimpse of the future froze him solid in his tracks.
Neil Armstrong didn't just suddenly and magically step foot on the moon because engineers took their time doing nothing. No, shuttles were built and lost, test flights were conducted, experimental animal subjects died, losses and setbacks were experienced...but one cannot progress without loss, one cannot learn without setbacks, and one cannot grow without defeat. Heimerdinger refused to accept and understand this.
"A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing."
@@6ixlxrd
He didn't fear experimentation. He literally _encouraged_ Jayce and Viktor to _take their time_ and conduct proper research. He just didn't want weapons being mass produced and magic corrupting people, which is exactly what happened. War isn't progress, it's a setback. He was indeed out of touch and complacent when it came to the situation in Zaun, but that's a separate issue. He believed in _science._ Yes, we sent man to the moon, but look at all the trail and error it took. We used animals to keep human loss to a minimum. Jayce and Viktor didn't want to deal with the long, arduous process of trail and error, they wanted to rush everything. Now they have super-powered weapons, Viktor killed his assistant, and war is looming. Ironically, the whole council was sitting in that room when Jinx fired that rocket towards them. The only one was wasn't there ... was the man they wrongfully cast out. Heimerdinger.
This was my first video of yours that I've seen and to say the least I am impressed. I look forward to more of your content.
Dinger is a boomer but I think in season 2 he will start to understand more working with Ekko.
“I don’t understand, I’m not being bland, I don’t understand the poor”
Another excellent video sir. Now, if I could persuade you to look at the 2015 Kings Quest game, you won’t be disappointed.
i agreeeee, i super agree
while many people hates on jayce/jinx/vi
i cant help but to hate heimer, he did absolutely nothing in all the series, not when viktor was dying, not even gave a contrustive though about hextech, only showing disaproval and trying to sabotage jayce.
Twas when i heard “Viktor’s sexy accent” u got my undivided attention
Humans might not live for centuries...but cities do
Heimerdinger being removed from the council gave me so much mix feeling, I felt sad for the guy, but also understood the point of view of Jayce and his frustration. This show is so good at showing both side of every character, none of the heroes are perfect and none of the villain are fully evil
And as usual the short sighted emotionally driven opinion was wrong. Heimerdinger was right, and everyone else got nuked. Idiots got what they deserved.
I love all the characters of Arcane. And a great example is Heimer, he at first in season one is acting as a wise man like but is more sympathetic to people and is just nice, but isn't empathetic. At the end of season 1 Arcane he becomes more empathetic and shows character development. I love it, can't wait for season 2, also great video, very interesting and did give me a new perspective.
it slaps so hard upside the head it made me remember the finale of the last airbender.
He's too busy smelling the sweet smell of science
Giving quick and immense power to the hands of the masses, like with the case of magic, is understandably an *extremely* dangerous thing if the masses are ill prepared to properly use it.
There is long understood and specific reason why martial arts are so long to teach you techniques, instead focusing on the fundamentals and conditioning. Because the ability to cause grievous bodily harm to *anybody* in a way most people aren't prepared to handle or are familiar with, is a power not to be given lightly. Being able to understand the weight of what you are learning and have the discipline to properly use it it key. And why most martial arts masters try to *avoid* conflict when possible, because they know how easy the human body is to damage, and what they can do to a person.
Magic, in this case, is very similar. Another example could be firearms. The ability to point at a person, twitch your finger and *end their life* is no laughing matter. We have classes for people to understand this.
The ability to get behind the wheel of 3,000 pounds on wheels and be trusted *not* to kill others with it is something we rigorously test for before allowing people to do so.
You *cannot* hand such power to others that could be so easily abused and misused *ESPECIALLY* when those who enforce the law and protect the citizens are not properly equipped and trained to handle this newfound power.
The introduction of magic to the public would need to be done slowly. Or with regulation. It doesn't matter that magic can be used to heal and help, it if can also be used so easily to maim and kill. The character in question is right to fear something that had already caused calamity. A world where Mavic has been present and used since crawling from the primordial soup is entirely different to one which has had it far in the background out of the public eye for example. Think muggles in Harry Potter suddenly being given access to magic en masse as opposed to a system like the world of Naruto.
As for "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and the one." That's just an overtly evil phrase that has unfortunately become mainstream because of Stat trek. The idea enshrined in that phrase specifically speaks to collectivism that negates and denies the rights of the individual and their right to consent. It's a phrase that is often used in a flimsy altruistic sense, but most commonly is implemented to its worst degree as a justification for genocide.
The last part of the needs of the many, you're not entirely wrong on. But you're also not entirely right. When talking about a society as a leader you inevitably come into rough choices. Choices where you have to choose between two bad actions. And one of the most valuable ways to gadge which is the better of the two bad options is "How many people will be effected negatively by each choice". This is basically asking which option is better for more people. And while it may not be a 'good' option, if the alternative is even WORSE, then the needs of the many MUST take priority. If you have to do something bad to say 1 person, or something bad to 1,000 people. Morally speaking, the greater wrong would be to harm the thousand to save the one.
Life is complicated. And I don't think morality is so easy as white and black. And even amongst white and black options, there's often a layer of shades. Being in power comes with draw backs, and one of those is sometimes you get into situations where the entire deck is loaded with bad options and bad ideas. And the only thing left for you to do is decide from those bad options and bad ideas, which is the least terrible.
I can actually give an example of the "best of terrible ideas" notion. In Japan during world war 2, their invasion of china would lead to US sanctions, and one of the things hit was their oil. They imported some 90%+ from the US, so having it cut off put them in a serious crisis. And the US was not going to move, and would only restore trade if they pulled out of china. Setting aside the genocide and immorality of Japan's actions that lead to this point. They had a realization. Every last option available to them was bad. They could accept US demands to leave china, but they had already lost so many lives and gained so much ground that this was basically a nonstarter. So they had to decide how to deal with it. And at the speech where the plan to attack the US was accepted, EVERY LAST PERSON who spoke, spoke of how dangerous it is, how much of a bad idea it was, and that if things didn't go perfectly, it would be the start of the end. They fully knew that what they were doing was a "bad option", but it was the "best bad option" they had. (In their opinion, not my own.) And it played out exactly like everyone knew it would. Japan never had a chance against the US, and even it's early success was remarkable and unexpected. The main hope was that they could get the US to just roll over. They didn't fully understand the US mindset about being attacked, and not rolling over. And that the US was doing no more talking, but had decided to let the guns decide everything. But the entire thing played out pretty much like even the Japanese thought, first 6 months they'd have victory. But if the war continued, they'd have no chance. Almost to a day, that prediction was right.
So my point here is that "the needs of the many" as a concept, has merit. And is sometimes the only way to gadge bad options, to decide which would be slightly less terrible. And which bad option you can live with on your conscious. The world is full of nuances like this, and it's one of the reasons absolutism is a hard sell. Because there's always something that'll spring up in such an unexpected way to challenge any absolute you give. Especially when it involves humans, cause we're as unpredictable as it gets. I doubt any would have imagined- sparing a corpral live in world war 1, would lead to the holocaust or the second world war for example. So was it 'moral' to save him, not knowing? Or would the moral thing to kill him? Is it even moral to kill someone based on things they'd go on to do? And so on and so on. Morality especially is immensely complicated shaped by society, environment, association, wealth , power status, and so on.
@@NeiasaurusCreations I think you and I actually agree almost entirely here.
Because I certainly agree with your point.
Being a leader. I stress *leader* and not say, a politician, comes with making seriously difficult decisions that do often involve sacrifice. The military tactic of "The Rear Guard" being a shining example of this. Basically a job that's universally understood as a suicide mission, the point being to assign a detachment to the rear who's job is to fight off the enemy as long as possible for a retreating force to escape.
Playing a game like Mount and Blade: Bannerlord will showcase this if you're in a pinch and need to run from a battle, you'll often end up losing a decent portion of your army and baggage train in the process. Sacrificing others for the rest to live.
It's and understood, and dark reality.
My point I had been making, is on the danger of basing a policy system, cultural system, or moral code off of "the needs of the many". Because it will inevitably be used by corrupt individuals to oppress and kill others in the name of "the greater good" which more often than not, isn't all that good.
The simplicity of the train track question belies the nuance of the topic itself.
But like I said, you and I are pretty much in complete agreement here lol
All must be taken in equal balance, the good and freedom of the individual, the few, and the many. Sometimes the best tools to repair a damaged society are also the ones capable of destroying it. Yes it should be studied heavily and it's use trained, but it shouldn't be dismissed or destroyed outright, nor should it be put under perpetual R&D for hundreds of years. That's a completely dismissive and fatalist view of technological advancement at best, and a thinly veiled attempt to bury it at it's worst.
@@alexanderrahl7034 Yup, like I said I did agree with you, but I also felt that there was a reason why the notion itself is used. The best ideas can absolutely be used for the worst. An example is the idea of communism, versus the reality of communism being implemented. The idea of communism is actually really good, and really idealistic, trying to make everyone's life better. The reality of communism is the soviet union, communist china, communist Cuba. An idea can have value, and merit, and be a 'good idea' to 'better people', and then be used to justify the absolute worst of the worst in practice. Because people tend to find ways to ruin things and to twist noble ideas into genocides.
Do Mel the show Fandom was ready to write her off as a manipulative power hungry seductress. She is a very interesting character and her role in Jayce and Viktors storyline could be great going forward
dude i love this video. you are litterally the only one who explains heimedingers character arc correctly. pls i crave more of the kite master
Found you from your KotH videos, loved your humor and breakdowns, glad i stuck around for this.
Re-watch the opera scene where Jayce is making deals with the other councilors. It might change your opinion on "not because he doesn't know politics". It clearly shows the viewer the he is blissfully ignorant of the politics of Piltover.
"Silco is the obvious bad guy and Jayce the obvious good guy" Are you sure about that ?
Silco isn't the best, selling dangerous drugs and being a criminal overlord definitely aren't exactly "good guy" traits. But that hextech core look a lot like void stuff and if that the case Jayce and Viktor are absolutely the bad guys of that story for allowing something like that to be created and not immediately disposed of, especially since they were warned about it.
you just vibing the dark side bro
333x2
Just finished this the other day and I know you loved it. Time to binge your opinions on it
Heimer really is my favorite character in the show, because at the end of the season he's one of a handfull of people who could really bring some peace to the city.
I've always thought about Heimerdinger with this take because another thing we have to consider is that he's from a race and species that is completely different from the humans and it honestly doesn't help the majority how loose his connection is to all of those he once governed. While yes he is capable of doing the right thing, his pace takes as slow as a generation at a time. And since he was one of the founders, we can subtlety tell that whatever he overlooked within the past with the previous leaders build within the undercity and turned into the mess that it is in their current times. This is why I agreed with Jayce into letting him go because he needed an extreme wakeup call for the outcome of misery he and the councilmen caused for the lower half of the city.
Thank you; this is going to help me with writing, or at least get over some inhibitions. And, I found truth in your justification for this video, because it's happened to me multiple times: sometimes you just need to state what's there. It's helped me solidify what to do next; for instance, in writing.
Honestly the moment that really got me was when Heimerdinger talked about imprisonment as a "curious conundrum" like it was all just a philosophical hypothetical, rather than something that can be incredibly traumatizing ESPECIALLY if it's solitary confinement (like, that's literally torture!) and like you said, he says it to a terrible audience. Not the worst possible audience though: if he ever says something similar to Vi she's gonna show him just what a Conundrum it is with her fists lmao. Plus he's been a major influence on Piltover from the start and as far as we know he's never done anything for the undercity (we know he at least hasn't visited in a long time bc he clearly had no idea it was this bad, like buddy HOW can you not know what's happening in half the city state you founded??) (I say all this lovingly! I do look forward to his eyes being further opened bc he clearly wants to do better).
Your perspective is exactly what I thought. It's very refreshing to see a Heimer video as well, always going to be your fan Shady!
this video right here explains wht Heimerdinger was my favourite character
Some good points here, but it's completely dismissive of Heimerdinger's experiences, his knowledge, his motives, his perspective, as well as to the utterly corrupt circle of peers he acts within.
Sure, it's not too well explained in Arcane, but lore-wise, magic has almost destroyed the planet and or risked the life of all living creatures on the planet several times. Magic is also alive and well in the rest of runeterra, and wreaking all sorts of havoc. Piltover was created with the ideal of progress for the sake of the people, and Heimer still believes that they can reach that dream without resorting to what equates to playing with hydrogen bombs.
Is his views somewhat skewed because of his longetivity? Yes. Is he disregarding the plights of the people of not-yet-zaun? Yes. Is he likely willfully oblivious of the corruption of his peers? Yes. But Heimer is scientist at heart, not a politician. He's choosing the path he belives will help the most people in the long run. He's also on a council, he's not a dictator. Unfit to lead? He has critical knowledge, experience, and insight and is acting according what way he thinks will better the lives of the people.
The flashbacks he has in the show are almost certainly of the runewar, which mainly consisted of mages using runic magic, and it nearly destroyed the world. "Lack of empathy" applies in some of these scenarios, but one can be empathic without acting on ones empathy, and Heimer believes his motives for being dismissive to be the moral and logical choice.
This video is a typically human short sighted perspective. I want it now!!! In my liftime!!!!! Sorry but real progress requires generations. Quick advancement without proper foresight into the future leads to death and destruction.
You won the RUclips game today. Found you near the top of recommended videos.
Excellent video - Fantastic dialogue on Heimer's character and his arc in season 1.
YEEEEEESSSSS!!!
Thus was perfect! I've been meditating on the duality of man for months now and you so perfectly summarized the entire concept! I too have never agreed with the "there are no good guys or bad guys" quote and you hit the nail on the head!
YOU my friend, have just earned a subscriber!!
The Bojack Horseman quote, a show I have never watched and don't plan to, kinda pissed me off.
A personal pet peeve of mine is when TV Shows attempt to make grand, in your face moral philosophical statements that are close to being true but leave out important details that kill the whole argument.
Yes, there is such a thing as "Bad" people.
What this scene was TRYING and FAILING to say was "Most people, generally speaking, are good. You have legitimately good people and legitimately bad people, but they are rare. Most people are just somewhere in the middle trying to do the right thing but with varying results". Instead, the show said "We're all the same and thinking otherwise is stupid", which is ironically a stupid statement itself. Like, okay, uncomfortable subject matter, but let's talk about Pedophiles for a moment. Broader society pretty much universally agrees Pedophilia is wrong (Because duh). Now, consider the two types of Pedophiles: Those actively indulging on their sick desires and those that recognize they have a problem and are actively trying to address it. The ones indulging are an absolute evil, they know what they're doing is wrong, they know children aren't in a position to consent, they attempt to be secretive about it and we even have Pedophiles using social agendas like LGBT as a shield so that they can co-opt their way into acceptance. Then you have the latter, which do exist. They know it's wrong and are fighting a genuine battle; their attractions weren't something they consciously chose at the end of the day, but despite that they're trying in earnest to be the better man regardless. And that's in spite of a culture and corrupt media conglomerate that's actively indulging in that same twisted stuff in the background. That takes both guts and genuine good morals; I think most people would be willing to agree these people are undeniably good.
So let's go back to that Bojack Horseman, "There aren't good or bad people". No, there are absolutely good and bad people. There are absolutely grey areas when it comes to morality, but there are deadass right and wrongs in society. It is absolutely wrong to diddle children and there are people actively trying to lobby a case for Pedophiles rather than combat them; literally people arguing for MAP's ("Minor Attracted Persons". Look it up if you feel like being furious) and their rights to have a kid to molest. People saying "Children can consent". I'll full stop just call these people "Bad". Fucking "Evil" even. And the reason I have a pet peeve for arguments like these is for two reasons: They are reductionist and they have INFLUENCE. They reduce the scope of the talking point and the person speaking has enough star power to convince braindead normies that it's a correct position to hold when it isn't.
Well, that's absurd. People are bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling.
Dr. Keslo
You'll have to forgive some poor choice of wording on my part.
I know Bojack Horseman is a good show, I just generally am not into THESE types of shows is all. I did not mean to make it sound like the ascribed reason was because of that one bad line. I HAVE since watched it (ironically), but I assure you I wasn't trying to say the whole show is bad based on this one line.
That all said, even with context I think it was a badly written line. It's still reductionist and could have used a revision and as Shady has pointed out my exact fear about it has already been confirmed; people DO point at this line as if it is a good argument. This also isn't the only time Bojack Horseman has done or said something I fundamentally disagree with. I mean the backend of the show just sorta treats Bojack as a Nature before Nurture sort of character when he is clearly someone who was nurtured into what he is and a good example of what Hollywood can do to someone, especially a damaged child who was never really able to grow up; the show paints him as a sympathetic character but tends to act like only his sh*t stinks which bothers me given the whole cast is filled with unsavory characters who more or less add to the problem that is Bojack. But I'm getting off topic, short of it is that I don't hate the show. I just hate THAT line.
Which isn't terrible considering even some of my favorite shows like King of the Hill or Avatar have similarly bad lines. I STILL get frustrated with Katara as a character and KOTH is infamous for its backlog of episodes gaslighting the sh*t out of Hank.
I think after 300 years, your empathy goes out the door after witnessing many friends pass away.
Then he should realize by now that telling a dying man to destroy the thing that could save his life and countless others just because you are afraid of something that MIGHT happen is a tad absurd.
Also i love how you point out about try being in jayce's position
you kinda missed Heimer's message with saying he's seen what magic can do in the wrong hands. he wasn't saying all people would misuse it to cause great wars again, but rather that just one or a few who misuse it is enough to cause major issues. the foreshadowing is already there too, we've seen just how powerful people can be with the addition of these tools, and Noxus coming in to try to get Mel to allow them access to Hextech for warfare. thousands of people can use it for good but it just takes one person crazy or power hungry enough to use it for destruction and domination *cough* *cough* jinx, *cough* *cough* Noxus the nation of warfare. there are also other issues known about from lore but don't want to get into them here since those might be spoilers for season 2. Heimer fully knew that this wasn't something that was 100% going to be bad, and rather fully understood the good it would bring but was of the idea that the potential risk was greater than the benefit. he wasn't shooting in the dark or thinking irrationally and "just happened to be right", he fully knew why he was deciding that and had seen this play out before already.
as for being unfit to lead due to lack of empathy, I feel that's a byproduct of piltover very clearly keeping the full info about the undercity under wraps and the state it's in isn't clear to many of those in piltover. by this standard, none of the people on the council are fit to lead piltover alone, and they'd need people who can view it from someone who fully knows what it's like down there. of the council Heimer was an extremely important part and very much should have stayed on that council as the last voice of reason. I don't see how the show lead you to think this, as he is presented very much as the one who was right and his removal from the council is shown as a negative thing and a tragic moment, and his removal is lead by a close friend and student of his and agreed upon by characters who we've seen time and time again be self serving and discriminatory against the poorer undercity. we know they all have some level of manipulation skills and shady dealings and they're treated as pretty bad people with the exception of Heimer.
This show and the He-man CGI cartoon gives me hope that we're slowly but surely leaving the Dark Age of Animation.
I'm mad that it took me this long for the algorithm to send me this video. I love it so much! What a great analysis
In resume, what a well crafted Heimerdinger and every character in this show is.
Heimerdinger in this season was a well-meaning character, but one who ended up falling out of touch with reality. It is easy to say 'ten years' when you can have hundreds of years to live regardless of having less than ten years to live.
When he thought that he could go to the lower levels he thought he could easily walk in and make changes to help people... without realizing how far the distrust had become. How 'low' they had fallen, and how disconnected he had come with everyone else.
In some ways he was the perfect example of the city he loved... well meaning... but disconnected from their own people.
One of my favorite quotes which in part goes with Heimerdinger for this season -- You know what the problem with knowing the right answer? You have no idea what to do when someone else has a different answer, but it isn't a wrong answer.
He was right... but so to were other people who disagreed with him. Curious to see how he advances in season 2 or if they will choose a different region to explore for season 2.